jack smith courtroom in d.c. this is a state case so it won't hold any evidence or preference for what happens in federal courts, but we're going to see the two federal cases change significantly as a result of yesterday's scotus ruling. >> barbara, david, and vaughn, thank you all for being here with this breaking news. that is going to do it this hour. make sure to join us every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. our coverage continues with katy tur reports right now. >> good to be with you. i'm katy tur. can president biden still pull this off? we've got new polling showing movement away from him and new public wobbles from democratic allies including the first sitting democratic lawmaker to publicly call for president biden to step aside. both come at an increasingly crucial and critical moment. despite hoping for some respite,

the scotus immunity decision did not provide president biden any respite from dogged conditions about his health and mental acuity. instead, the calls for more proof he is okay are growing louder. proof like holding an extended news conference or sitting down for a serious interview with a tough journalist. it's what prominent american voices and donors are calling for and his powerful democratic allies are calling for. >> i think my recommendation to, is for him to have some interviews with serious journalists. you among them. a serious journalist, no holds barred. any question's fair and just sit there and be joe. >> well, within two hours of those comments from nancy

pelosi, abc news announced that biden will sit down for an interview on friday with george stephanopoulos. but the doubts of whether he can do it then whether he can govern for another four years are still stubborn. doubts expressed both in public and in private including among some of the most essential and consequential supporters of any campaign. those are major donors. nbc news obtained audio from a zoom call with donors where senior campaign aides tried to convince them that the debate was just a blip. >> everyone just needs to breathe through the nose for a minute and take a deep breath. >> media has spent a ton of time blowing this out of proportion. >> a donor on the call calling it trumpian. one groaned when dylan said biden was probably in better health than most of us. still, the campaign ran through

its numbers. pointed to record fund racing and internal polls, which they argue was unmoved. saying the voters didn't perceive this in the way the media did. in the way that a lot of people who were tuning in to the debate did. and a lot of the fundamentals at the end of the day, particularly with audiences that we know we have to move to win, those did not change. they also dismissed talk of an open convention. and hold on. here's that sound bite as well. everyone thinks we have it but i'll read it to you. everyone thinks it's really easy to just listen to what the media's saying and all the naysayers who just all of a sudden, biden just decides he's not going to run and we can just create a whole new scenario with someone else that we get behind. i have been around this for 30 years and i'm telling you that is so far from the truth. joe biden was dually, he won the nomination through a primary process where the people chose

him. the people of the democratic party. in some cases, independents those him. that is from one of the finance directors of the dnc. but just like questions of fitness, the talk of letting the democratic party work it out for themselves in chicago, well, those aren't going away either. joining us now, nbc news correspondent, steve kornacki. so, steve, i mentioned polling at the top of the show. what does this new polling tell us? >> three new polls all conducted after the debate. the most recent, just a few hours ago. this is from cnn. national poll. they have trump leading biden 49-43%. now, there's a couple ways the look at this poll. start with the comparison to the previous cnn poll back in april. well before the debate, but their most recent before this, also showed a 49-43 race. so in that sense, unchanged. however, back in april when this number came out, you may recall

it caused a bit of a stir. at six points, it was a much bigger margin than just about any other pollster was showing. a few said that was an outlier poll but the thing with out liar polls is generally, they can be the product of a statistical blip. they'll happen once in a while, but when you get one, you kind of expect the next time around, it's not going to happen again but you get the same result the next time around here. so is this two outliers or is something else at work here. that's when you look inside these numbers and i think you see something interesting. you see trump leading biden by six points but then cnn also tested -- >> have you hold on for a second. we're going to come back. we want to go to the white house press briefing room. let's listen. >> members of his team, high level senior members of his team. it's not like we were silent, quiet, not engaging with them,

we were. now that the president's back at the white house, he's going to have some time to talk to these democratic leadership. democratic leadership on the phone i mentioned democratic governors. he's going to do it with leaders on the hill as well. that's important. then he's going to go back out into the states obviously and talk to americans there. he's going to do both. >> what's his message going to be to the democratic governors and hill leaders? >> i'm not going to get into a private conversation. we wanted to share these meetings. it was floating out there and i know it was, and we just wanted to confirm that we were indeed having these conversations. we normally as you know, our posture is not to dive into private conversations. he'll have these conversations. they'll be important. i also want to note that there is a regular engagement with

whether, intergovernmental affairs or the office of affairs. regular engagement from my colleagues here with governors, with mayors, and also obviously with congressional leaders. that is something that is a regular engagement. obviously, the president himself will engage. >> does he still have a cold? >> he has a cold, yeah. >> you said a couple of times now that the white house has provides thorough medical records for the president. the white house released a six-page summary. i don't think that was full accounting necessarily. and the doctor described the president as quote, a healthy, active, robust 81-year-old male who remains fit to successfully execute the duties of the american presidency. i think that is clearly not what the majority of americans are seeing. a new poll says 72% of voters say the president does not have

the mental and cognitive health to serve as president. are you saying the majority of americans are misguided and need to trust dr. o'connor? >> the president is feeling better. you say him last night and today. but he still indeed does have a cold. look, i want to be very sensitive here. i think it is important to be sensitive here. we understand how the american people are feeling. we get it. we do. and i do not want to take away from that. i'm not going speak. cnn did a poll. i'm not going to speak to every poll. also constraints in doing that as we're heading into an election in november as you know. what i will say is majority of americans also support the work that the president is doing in the sense of his agenda and what he stands for. what he's been fighting for. whether it's reproductive rights, an economy that works

for all. and that is something that the president's going to continue to do. and this is why we have said and i've said this multiple times from here, that's why the president acknowledges. we get what americans are feeling. that's why he's acknowledging he's not a young man. that's why he's acknowledging he's a little slower than he used to be in walking. not as smooth in speaking. we get that. but we also want to make sure that we point to the successes he's had. his record. and we want to continue to build on his unprecedented record. i'm not going to discount what the american people see or feel. what i can say is what we know from our side of things, we could speak to his record. and we could speak to what the president has been able to acknowledge. that's important, too. that's acknowledging what americans are seeing and feeling. >> if you get it, why not release more about his medical, physical and mental health?

>> what we have released has been very comprehensive. it has been. it's been transparent. and if you compare it, it has. we have put that out there. and we'll continue to do so put that information out there. i want to be very clear. i get the question you're asking me, but this is also a president who has had a historic administration. he has. in delivering on legislation, key policies. that is because with age comes wisdom and experience. and i think that matters as well. >> did dr. o conor watch the debate? >> i believe he traveled with us. >> did he have any concerns? >> no. not at all. >> the campaign's theory of the case, the president staying in the race has been the president has a better shot of beating donald trump than any other democrat. we have a new poll that shows

donald trump has a slight stronger thoughing than the president. how does the president explain not passing the baton to his own 59-year-old vice president giveren that kind of data? >> i'm constrained to speaking directly to your poll and i get it. i hear the question. i got to be mindful that is something for the campaign as you started saying what the campaign has laid out. their argument of the case. that is something for them to take up and answer. what i can speak to is the president's record. what i can speak to, what he's been able to accomplish and the things he's been able to do and get done is actually in line with the majority of americans and i think that's important, too, to note. with age comes wisdom and experience and that's certainly something the president brings. >> we've seen some real anger expressed by donors and democratic officials sort of how you guys handled the president. shielding him away from settings

and denying until last week that there really had been any slippage. i'm wondering if you guys have had a moment to reflect on that strategy, any regret over it and if what you would say to folks who think it's, whether not to be changes towards that strategy? >> about who's around the president? >> well, i think it's two parts. one is kind of small, concentrated group of aides have been with the president a very long time and the other is systemic decisions to shield the president from the impromptu moments we've seen in previous administrations. whether it's press conferences or interviews or you know, just being out in public. >> look, a couple of things. this year, the president has done more than 40 interviews. unscripted. he has done more than 500

gaggles. right? of course, unscripted. talking directly to many of you. let me just finish. he enjoys engaging with you and we're going to continue making sure that happens. i will say this. this is a, obviously a president that was a senator for 36 years. he was the vice president as you all know. i'm just repeating things you all know, for eight years. so he has long time, you know, advisers that have been here with him for a long time. i don't think that's unusual. he also has people who have, who are new to the administration. that also advise him. i've been in meetings with the president where there's been a diverse group of people and he sees us and he knows the reason we're sitting in front of him is we have something to share and he wants to hear from us. i've heard him say, what do you

think? what do you think? and so my experience has been that that world is indeed open and that he does get to hear from a diverse group of people. that has been my experience. but it is not unusual for someone who has been around for that long of time to have a group of people that's been around him for a minute, right? and i think that makes sense. there's nothing about that that is nonsensical that makes sense. and we're going to continue to get him out in front of all of you to take your questions. steady drum beat. >> two questions. one is a logistical one. the press conference, is that a big boy press conference? or these two and twos. >> i know you guys are holding

me to it, i believe it's a solo press conference. we'll certainly have more to share with you as we get closers to next week. big boy justin over here is asking some big boy questions, okay. >> you know, the president's not the only leader that's entering the conference on the back foot. had some electoral losses. the u.k. is going through a big election right now. with all these leaders coming into d.c. a little bit diminished, how is that changing how you're looking at the summit and what is possible? >> it's a good question. look. i think one thing as i talk about the president's record and what he's been able to do, right, he's been able to strengthen our world view the way that people see us across the globe. other leaders, our partners and allies because of that experience. again, with experience brings

yes, with age brings experience. and wisdom. i think because of that, the president has been able to build a coalition. if you think about ukraine -- >> the press secretary trying to dispel doubts and concerns about president biden's fitness not only for this campaign, but for governing should he win again in four more years. she talked about having a lot of ample opportunity to get him in front of reporters. that there will be a solo press conference at nato, which is going to happen over the summer. president biden could have walked out to the podium today and addressed reporters directly. there have been a lot of folks on capitol hill and in the donor class all urging him to take more unscripted chances to speak freely to the american public and to do so through reporters. to talk to the press. and this would be a great opportunity to stand in front of that white house podium, which every president has access to. joining us now, aaron gillcrist.

good to have you. the white house is trying to get out in front of this and from the conversations i've been having with a lot of folks, what they are trying to do is completely shutdown any conversation that joe biden's not going to stay in this. that there could be a plan b. and especially shutdown any conversation that there could be an open convention. >> yeah. i think you're right. you referenced earlier the fact that the congressman from texas actually called for president biden to step away from the race for 2024 and the campaign responded to that by saying he's staying in. that's what we got from a campaign official today after the press release came from the congressman. and that is really i think what you heard the press secretary getting at in her briefing today as we've been listening for the last half an hour or so. she's been reiterating the president's record that she says has been a successful one. she's been talking about the fact that he is going to continue to as she says, work

for the american people. we did learn at the beginning of the briefing here, a few details about this effort to get president biden out there more if you will. that's something we heard from a lot of strategists and people who have been talking about what president biden needs to do the right the ship after the debate performance. he is going to be speaking to capitol hill leaders. we heard earlier on this network from jim clyburn that he expected to be talking to president biden today, at some point this afternoon. he'll also be speaking with democratic governors. our reporting was earlier in the day that president biden would be holding a video call with democratic governors this week. we understood likely tomorrow. so now that confirmation that is happening. she also noted a few other additions to his schedule this week. he'll be doing an interview on friday in wisconsin with abc news. also making an appearance on sunday in philadelphia and she

noted the news conference the president will hold next week during the nato summit, that she expected that to be a solo news conference. i think that's an effort, at least by the white house, to say they understand the need for president biden to be out there in front of the public in an unscripted fashion and this is their effort to start doing that immediately. these were things that were all added to the schedule we got earlier in the week. we knew he was going to appear at the d.c. emergency management center and other appearances this week. those things i just referenced are all new. >> did he take questions at the event today? i saw him on prompter there, but did he take questions from reporters? >> no. he read remarks from the telepromter. there were a couple of shouted questions during that time, but he didn't respond the anything. it's something we do. whenever there's a traveling press pool, there's also an effort to try to get a question answered. sometimes he'll turn around and answer a question or not or gesture in some way.

in this case, he didn't do that. tomorrow, he is supposed to be awarding the medal of honor at a ceremony at the white house. not likely to be an opportunity there to shout questions from the back of the room that he would be able to hear over the music that typically goes with that sort of a ceremony. but we'll be looking out for that tomorrow then again on thursday when he holds a fourth of july event at the white house. >> thank you very much. joining us now, politico white house reporter and co-author of the newsletter. eli stokels, mark. eli, you've got reporting regarding one of the questions asked. is his inner circle too insular? does he have aides around him that are too closed off and protective of him? which has been a big criticism of biden in recent days. >> over the course of the last few days, we've talked to more two dozen senior democrats and

who have been more outspoken, criticizing them in the aftermath of the debate. they believe the debate prep was handled poorly. they are now questioning the decision to move up the debate to put the president in the format to agree to rules that seem to advantage former president trump. also, the broader insularity of the white house they feel is not serving them well. the campaign run out of the white house, out of wilmington headquarters by these same aides that have been with the president for years. you heard her talking about how it's normal for him to have people who have been around a while. that is true. it's been sort of consistent point throughout this presidency. but people who are on the outside who want to help this campaign have been frustrated by the cloistered, the way the president has been cloistered within the white house. how he's done few interviews, very vu unscripted moments and how they have failed despite spending millions on ads, how they have failed the move the

numbers. there are a lot of people who have tried to offer suggestions, feedback, to the campaign. to the people guiding this campaign and they have not really been, they've not felt like they have been heard on terms of what the president's focusing on, what the message is they say the four, five, or six people in the room making decisions think they have all the information they need and are not really interested in changing course. >> mark, how much time do they have? >> for me? >> yeah. >> i would say they've wasted five day is. all this talk about how he's going to meet with governors and owners. he's done a couple of set piece, did a press thing last night or just telecast last night. this is all, like, this is five days since one of the most disastrous televised debate performances. the fact the george stephanopoulos thing is taking place eight days after that is a real, real miscalculation on

their part. i think the insularity is part of this, but largely, it adds to a sense that he is being protected. completely cloistered and he cannot come out in public in any kind of nimble or uncertain or chaotic environment like the debate was the other night and we saw how he performed. yeah, i think frankly, have little time and they've wasted five days so far. >> is it not far for me to say he can walk up to the podium. we saw donald trump do it a bunch of times when he was president. president obama did it as well. there's the lawn when he gets into the helicopter. leaving the white house. is it fair to say he should have done that? >> 100%. when you said that, i was off camera, but i was nodding. i assure you. but it is, no, it's 100% true. one thing that was in the cnn poll that i guess steve didn't get to, but kamala harris is within two points of donald trump in that same poll.

i think the same poll. >> yeah. >> yeah, exactly. kamala is not a viable alternative. four points higher. >> you make the argument that she has strengths where president biden has weaknesses. lay it out for us. >> well, i think this has been presented as a false choice, right, between an open primary and sticking with biden, which is just nuts. president biden has a vice president. her name is kamala harris. he chose her for a reason. she is actually a pretty talented politician. with some unique strengths very well suited to this moment. this is not some abstract dream up a candidate who would be the best person. this is a very specific race that is between kamala harris,

that is between kamala harris and donald trump. we know who donald trump is. a convicted felon. a sexual abuser. he is someone who lies, who is a demagogue. and kamala harris is a prosecutor. she has a very long track record of going after people just like donald trump. and so i think it's actually pretty surprising that people are casting about looking for some other alternatives. maybe they're uncomfortable with her gender, her race. whatever the reason, we have polling that shows voters don't seem to share that discomfort. she's outperforming everybody, even joe biden. there's a way for biden to play this that will play to his strength and give him a sense of agency in this. this is his chosen vice president. if she is passed over and he ends up not being able to join the, not being able to finish the race, what does that say

about his choice of kamala harris? i think there are a bunch of reasons she would be a good candidate. >> she does not poll as well with men as joe biden do, but you believe that is made up by the way she would energize younger voters. black women as well. >> what is the sort of central issue of this campaign, right? we're talking about women's right to choose. we're talking about bodily autonomy. someone needs to go out and make that case and bring that fight to donald trump. this is the man who essentially delivered the supreme court that knocked down roe v. wade and this is the biggest winningest issue they have. and joe biden has not been a strong candidate on this issue. so and i think that there's a reason why they've had kamala harris out there making that case. in the campaign thus far and i think she'll do a much better job of it than joe biden has

been able to. >> you also argue that adding in josh shapiro to the ticket. andy bashir. the democratic governor of kentucky. i want to play a little audio. the audio i read up top. i think it's worth listening to the audio of this donor call was you can hear the way they're trying to convince the donors. this is regarding talk of an open convention. >> everyone thinks that it's really easy to just, you know, listen to what the media is saying and all the nay sayers as if all of a sudden, biden decides he's not going to run and we can just create a whole new scenario with someone else that we get behind. i've been around this for over 30 years and i'm telling you that is so far from the truth. joe biden was dually, won the

nomination through a primary process where the people chose him. the people of the democratic party and in some cases independents, chose him. >> that was the i believe dnc finance chair. and eli, correct me if i'm wrong there. i think it's notable they're just trying to dismiss any talk about having a plan b. they're also trying to blame all of the polling troubles they foresee coming on a media narrative they called overblown. i spoke with a donor on that call and they told me that sounded pretty trumpian. i also spoke to somebody else who's had a meeting with the white house recently and they said the way they are projecting this sense of nothing's wrong, that voters are fine felt trumpian to them as well. like don't believe the evidence of your own eyes. >> i've heard that from people i've talked to, too.

donors, donor advisers. the dismissiveness, his voice. that is not sitting well with the people the campaign's trying to reassure. trying desperately to calm down. because those people don't feel like they're being heard. they don't feel like their concerns are being acknowledged. they feel the campaign is saying you have no choice. the ship has sailed. there was a primary. go back to the primary. biden operatives and a lot of those senior people worked very hard to make sure that was not an open primary. that there was uncontested that joe biden had a straight shot to that nomination moving the states around, the early states around et cetera. so we can go back to that, but generally, the way that they are approaching this trying to sort of you know, just tell donors this is over where and your concerns are overblown. a memo was put out by the campaign a day or two after the debate referring to people worried about biden's chances as bedwetters. that has not sat well. so they have not reassured a lot

of these people just yet. at the same time, the white house, the president, the white house, has grown stubborn in a sense. having "the new york times" go out and say, the editorial board, say he needs to step aside. that just sort of hardens joe biden's defenses. the chip on his shoulder gets heavier. the aides, all the people around him again see the elites that have never given joe biden his due, telling him to step aside and they get even more dismissive. so you have this cycle that is compounding itself where the donors and the people that they need in their corner are less an less reassured and the president at this point based on some of the resistance they are feeling from different areas, feels at this point, more determined to stay in although i'm told it still is maybe a more fluid situation. sfl. >> there was an audible grown on that call from another donor as dylan said president biden is probably healthier than us all.

this is not to glom on, but there are legitimate concerns about president biden. a lot of people who think he's done a great job, been a great president, but are worried in the wake of the supreme court ruling, they are worried about what a second term would look like and they want to have their best foot forward to keep him out of office. ahead, sources tell nbc news president biden has yet to call top democrats in congress following his debate performance. what sort of frustration it's causing among those who are supporting him publicly. we're going to speak to someone in the senate. plus, are we seeing the ripple effect of the trump immunity decision? what we know about the delay about the sentencing. we are back in 90 seconds. the sg we areac bk in 90 seconds.

upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast. senator, thank you very much for joining us. i'm sure you were just listening to a good portion of that conversation i was having. i'm curious to get your thoughts on president biden. not only whether he can campaign, but whether he can govern for another four years if elected. >> first of all, we loved joe biden in vermont. he got the highest percentage here than in any state. we love who he is and what he's done. the debate was a setback and the biden campaign has the challenge

of addressing that to folks. our existential challenge is beating trump. that's more important than anything. and the biden campaign is in the process of reviewing how to proceed. it was unfortunate they criticized democrats who were asking the question the campaign itself is asking. at the end of the day, there has to be an assessment by the biden campaign about how much damage is done as a result of that debate and what steps they can take and whether that will be a factor. >> it sounds like you're not entirely convinced that he has convinced people that he can do it. you're leaving the door open. >> well, i am. it is open. let's be candid. what we saw can't be unseen. that was an unsteady performance and raised questions about his physical condition. that, the campaign itself, has acknowledged. it's important for us.

we have an obligation as a party who's committed to serving the future of our democracy, and that is the most important issue for every single one of us from president biden to a captain in the south side of chicago. so this is the process that i think the biden campaign is going through. now, i happen to have a lot of confidence that president biden when he makes his final decision will do it on the basis as he's always done of what's best for this country. how can he best serve? so, big decisions for the president. >> he has had a long political career and the four years that he has been in office, three and a half years, he's gotten some major ground breaking, bipartisan legislation done. the economy is on the way up. he's being praised for his handing of two wars that he didn't start. two wars that are consequential to our own national security

here. the jobs numbers look really good. there is a, just such a mountain of evidence pointing to this being a positive presidency that americans should be happy about, but americans have bad vibes. do you think that he has the people around him who are giving him candid advice who feel like they can be truthful and honest with him? >> let me say two things. first, everything you described, i subscribe to myself. we're indebted to president biden for saving us from trump. and for his incredible accomplishments. by the way, this is with a nut case republican house in a razor thin margin in the senate. second, president biden has an extraordinary personal history of bouncing back from family tragedy and loss and becoming a loving, wonderful person, and bouncing back from political setbacks. so for him, he deals with this. but age is the issue now and

that was the concern that folks had going into the debate and the debate was the opportunity to try to put that to rest. and candidly, it intensified the concerns about age. so, as a reasonable party, we have an obligation to not dilute ourselves and to be determined that our decisions and how we proceed is based on our best prospects to keep donald trump away from the white house. i think that the president and his team know that. i have confidence in them. and i think every democrat as i mentioned, has to be looking at this from that perspective. >> do you think that the democratic party has another person who could beat donald trump? >> well, here's what's interesting. democratic party and all the names you hear as to who might be a presidential candidate should something happen for the next election, they all want to

carry on the trump, pardon me, the biden record of accomplishment. his economic policy. his foreign policy. so president biden has been an extraordinary, unifying force in our party. he had bernie sanders working hand in glove with him. he had joe manchin coming to assist in getting major legislation passed. so all of the potential candidates out there are biden candidates. the issue for the president is the age issue. that's what's been showing up in the polls and that's what was intensified by the debate. >> vast majority of the american people don't want donald trump or president biden. they've been asking for somebody else for a while now. it's been consistent in pretty much every poll we've done. why not just take this and say i did what i came here to do. and hand it off to the next generation when so many americans are asking for that?

>> well, you know, two things. number one, i think we democrats have to acknowledge that is what the polls are showing. you know, there was a rematch of biden and trump. but president biden i think had a legitimate concern. he was the best person for us in 2020 to keep trump out of the white house. he did it once in his view as he stated was that he thought he could do it again. is that the case? we don't know. right now. after thursday night. >> senator welch, thank you very much for coming on from the very great state, the state i love, the state of vermont. it's a wonderful place. >> thank you. >> i want to go there today. get in my car and start driving. thank you very much. still ahead, donald trump's hush money sentencing has been delayed until when and what does it mean for november? and quote, there are no kings in america. what biden is saying about

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the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. "soulmates." soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title. immunity. it allows judge merchan time to

sort through how that ruling might apply to donald trump's conviction on 34 felony counts. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin. if such is necessary. wow. >> yeah. he's agreed to take some briefing about whether or not the verdict should be set aside on the grounds that during the trial, he admitted evidence that the trump folks are now saying is official acts of evidence. as you know from yesterday during your 10:00 hour when we broke the story of the supreme court ruling, i said then, one of the biggest things about this is the exclusion of evidence on the ground that a president can't be immune if you are also allowed to introduce evidence of his official acts to prosecute things that are personal or private. that's no immunity at all said the majority. well, now the trump people are putting that to the test saying to judge merchan, you allowed evidence to come in that was

reflective of his official actions. tweets in 2018, a financial disclosure, even testimony about conversations he had with aides like hope hicks by the time he took the office of president. >> they're prompting me to say who are you who is so wide in the ways of the law. your blank face tells me you don't understand. >> no, i do not. >> it's monty python. if some of the evidence shouldn't have been admissible, does that render the verdict moot? >> first of all, the court has to weigh was that evidence crucial to the verdict in the first place? could the verdict have to do without that evidence? was there other evidence for example that donald trump knew that he was reimbursing michael cohen beyond those three tweets, beyond the disclosure in 2018 where there's an admission of reimbursement to michael cohen. is there evidence that the d.a. introduced and the judge could

say the jury could have relied on x or y or z. >> on the question of immunity and the supreme court ruling and what it means for the other big case, one of the other big cases. the jack smith election interference case. we've been having a lot of discussions about an evidentiary hearing. does judge chutkan have to have it? >> i might be in the minority but as i read the opinion, not necessarily. if you really parse the words carefully, one of the things the court is saying is that she should have briefing that they lack for example about what's official, what's unofficial. she should assess and examine the allegations in the indictment. there's a section where she's talking about january 6th and she say she needs additional context to decide where whether they're official or unofficial. it's not clear so we'll wait and see. it's really up to her.

>> this is a wrench of speed bump, but it's affecting the case. i'm going to send you that clip because you need to know it. it's part of pop culture. >> okay. >> there is something akin to collective confusion if not shock among legal and constitutional experts regarding the supreme court decision to grant presidents broad immunity. given the justices decided to do it on the particulars in front of them. that donald trump was afforded to use the leverage as president to keep himself in the white house even though he lost the 2020 election. in his most recent opinion piece for the "new york times," former constitutional litigator, david french, imagines what could come of such a dangerous amount of presidential discretion. saying quote, to understand the most dangerous potential implications of this action, consider that a president has the extraordinary authority to order troops into american

streets under the insurrection act. then once deployed, those troops would be under the command of a person who would almost certainly enjoy absolute immunity for the orders he gives them. joining us now, said opinion columnist for the "new york times," david french. good to have you. i think it's safe to say this is not what anyone was fully expecting from the supreme court. >> no. people were not expecting. now, they were expecting some degree of immunity. some limitations on the ability to prosecute presidents but what we were not expecting was the absolute immunity category and for it to be so broad. so the court says there's absolute immunity when you're talking about essentially the core functions of a president. what would be some of those core functions? nominating members of cabinets. nominating a judge. giving orders to troops in the commander in chief function. issuing pardons. so it really the case that all

of that is absolutely immune? and to protect a presidency, the court didn't have to go that far. it could have stopped with presumpive immunity where you could overcome the immunity argument by demonstrating you weren't, that you are not, are not stifling the president in the exercise of core constitutional functions, but they added that absolute immunity and now there's an immense amount of confusion over its limits and concern over what it means. >> i'm not a constitutional scholar, but i do remember learning in school about the dangers of absolute power and that was part of what, that was part of, not even being cheeky. part

there is such a thing as criminal constitution. it feels as if this opinion is extremely atextual. it had a better argument on the text of the constitution itself. originalism is supposed to begin with text. text is the core of originalism, but the text here really cuts against absolute immunity. >> chief justice roberts dismissed that argument from

sonia sotomayor. she cites the federalist papers, she cites thomas pickney and chief justice thomas dismisses it. >> right. not in a very convincing way. when you're looking at the actual opinion written by the court, it talks about absolute immunity where you can't go into the motivations of the president who is making this decision and so it was almost as if the dismissal of justice sotomayor, it was sort of like, oh, come on, that just won't happen as opposed to, no, our opinion doesn't permit that to happen, which are two different arguments. >> especially -- >> the opinion seems to permit it to happen. >> especially considering the case in front of them and that's how i wanted to start this. they're talking about the theory going forward and it seems like they're completely ignoring the actual realities of the case that is in fronts much them, which is that there is a president who tried to use the levers of power afforded to him in the constitution to overturn

the constitution. it feels like the justices said, yeah, you're constitutionally allowed to violate the constitution. >> well, at the very least presumptively allowed to be immune and sometimes absolutely allowed to be immune. now, one thing to be very clear about. the case in theory, if trump loses, can still go forward even on the private acts. during the oral argument they did elucidate from trump's counsel some real admissions that some of the stuff we're dealing with are private acts. if trump loses the case can still go forward but it's very much weakened and there are evidentiary issues where key evidence may not be able to come in. it's an extraordinary decision. >> david, what concerns you about the prospects given this power if donald trump wins again? >> look, i said it in the piece. one of the most dangerous laws in the united states of america

is this insurrection act. we know maga plans to implement this. they order literal truth. it's exercising those and it would otherwise violate the law but he's now absolutely immune. that's the kind of situation i'm very worried about. >> david, thank you so much for coming on and holding my hand. >> passengers flung into the ceiling of the plane. you just have to see it to believe it. don't go anywhere. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense.

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it is another plane story

after a 73-year-old man died after severe turbulence. another incident injured dozens of people this time on an air europa flight. tom costello tells us what happened. >> reporter: this was an air europa boeing 737. it hit severe turbulence over the atlantic ocean. so severe, passengers were thrown into the ceiling panels which were also severely damaged. at least 30 people injured. witnesses say people suffered broken bones, head injuries, reportedly a neck fracture as this plane took a nose dive. at least one passenger's seat was twisted and broken in half. photos of the aftermath are dramatic. entire panels are broken out. one seat ripped apart, broken in two. bloodstains on the seat. the airline says the pilots diverted the plane to brazil

where 15 ambulances were standing by. injured passengers treated and taken to a nearby hospital. the airplane said they sent another plane to get passengers to their destinations ultimately in uruguay. in may we had a singapore airlines flight make an emergency landing in bangkok after hitting severe turbulence. dozens injured. one man died of a cardiac event. researchers say the turbulence is becoming more severe as climate change heats up the planet. the jet stream said to be 15% stronger than it was in the 1970s and significant turbulence happening about 5500 times each year. the jet stream is more volatile and difficult to predict. back to you. >> great news to end on. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts