official acts can't come in and let's it's just public record evidence, even if it's coming in as evidence to prove a personal act, but also, the fact that you can't consider motive or inquire into the motive of what the former president might have been doing. these are things that really make it tough to move forward. however, that said, the court remanded for hearings, the judge will have those hearings, there will be a significant briefing on law and there will be some evidence taken and if she can support her rulings, and let some of this go forward, i'm not sure, i'm not so naove that it won't make its way up to the court again but it's not clear to me that there would be six votes to say certain things that are in this indictment are actually official act. >> great to hear from you guys, thank you both. that is all in on this tuesday night, now a special edition back to back nights i will do this, a special edition of the

rachel maddow show starts now. >> good evening, i so thoroughly enjoy the handoff, even if we are just revisiting it for old time sake. thanks to you at home for joining us for a special edition of the rachel maddow show which is my interview with stormy daniels. when ms. daniels agreed to the interview, i think it was in large part because that trial was over. the republican presumptive nominee for president, former president donald trump's criminal trial in new york, centered on the payment that was made to ms. daniels to try and stop her from speaking publicly about her experience with mr. trump. she testified in that trial, mr. trump was convicted by the jury on all 34 counts which he was charged after his conviction, after the trial was over there that is when ms. daniels agreed to sit down with me for her first american interview after the conclusion of the trial. but now, it seems the trial

maybe is no longer concluded. it is no longer over. today, in new york, judge merchan agreed to delay trump's sentencing in this case. he's facing up to four years in prison. the sentencing will be delayed now, so that judge merchan can consider a new motion from trump's defense lawyers. the new motion from them is because of the astonishing u.s. supreme court ruling yesterday which went further than basically any legal observers had expected in granting trump immunity from prosecution for anything he did while in office that could loosely be construed as an official acts. one of the most radical elements of the supreme court's decision, one that was so radical, just disparate wouldn't actually sign on to this part of it. one of the most radical part of it is that the ruling not only

establishes that trump can't be prosecuted for so-called official act, it means even if his alleged crimes were committed on his own time as a private matter, prosecutors bringing charges against him for those crimes, can't use any evidence in court that relates to any arguably official actions. in the new york criminal case related to this payment for stormy daniels, trump's lawyers are going to try and claim essentially, that some of the crucial evidence that was used to convict him should be deemed inadmissible on the basis of the fact that he was doing president stuff, when he did those things. that showed up as evidence in this case, and now, with this new supreme court ruling, anything that is a president thing can't be cited as evidence even if it is cited as evidence to support proving a totally unrelated crime that he did as a private citizen.

so, long story short instead of sentencing, donald trump next week, thursday of next week which when -- it was initially scheduled, the judge will instead consider the motion from trump's lawyers to throw out the guilty verdict and he will consider the argument about that and also consider arguments against from the prosecutors and on september sixth, he will rule on that motion to throw out the guilty verdict. if he doesn't throw it out, trump's sentencing will go ahead on september 18th. rather than next week, it'll be september 18th. so that was all just decided today. and one of the things it means in practical terms as if the republican party's presidential nominee is going to be sentenced to prison in this case, the sentence will now be handed down seven weeks before the election instead of 17 weeks before the election which is when it was going to happen. they say most americans don't

start paying attention to the election until after labor day, now, if he will get a prison sentence, the sentence will be way after labor day instead of month before labor day which was the original schedule, since the debate between trump and president joe biden, democrats have of course been newly and acutely focused on questions about president biden's age, and the question of whether he should stay as the parties nominee or should he and vice president harris have her take over the ticket and pick a new running mate for hair -- her. the democrats realize they need to move forward quickly on this, whatever they will do. on the republican side, though, since the debate, donald trump is moving backwards, he is moving backwards to this criminal trial at which he was convicted. >> how many billions of

dollars, for molesting a woman in public, doing a whole range of things, of having sex with a porn star while your wife was pregnant, what are you talking about. you have the morals of an alleycat. >> i didn't have sex with a porn star . >> not only is trump's defense team asking effectively to reopen this case and to push any possible sentencing of trump, 10 weeks closer to the election than it otherwise would be, he is also, as of this debate, he is still trying to tell america that stormy daniels is lying. that they did not have sex. for lack of a better term, he does not need to litigate that point. but he keeps trying to, still, even now, even at that debate.

the reason stormy daniels testified in detail under oath at his criminal trial about her interaction with him, is because he built his legal defense in large part on his contention that the sexual encounter between them did not happen. he didn't have to do it that way. but he did. it was not necessarily the strongest legal approach as evidenced by the fact that he was convicted unanimously on both counts but that is what he did. and that insistence by him, that she is lying, the insistence that the sex between them never happened, it has had very practical consequences for all of us, because his denial, his claim that this never happened, the insistence that this be made in court on his behalf, it meant that the jury in his case was asked to assess well, okay which of these accounts is credible, his claim that it never happened or her testimony that it certainly did happen. it can't be both so the jury was invited to assess in open court which one of these

accounts is right. and that is the legal fact of it, the human fact for all of us is that we the public got all of these details of the sexual encounter between them, not because anyone of us was desperate to know but because it was a crucial question at his criminal trial, is she recounting this event in a way that the jury finds credible because that was the test, her credibility, the details she had to remember, it became very legally relevant. so you know, a high ick factor, high importance though, too, in terms of the first conviction of a u.s. president in american history. so there is a somewhat far approach, which has been going on, his denial that this encounter happened right, there are the legal consequences of that for him, there are the things we can't ever forget, consequences for us as the

american public because of all the details we had to learn. but there's also stormy daniels, herself, a real life person. and the human fact of all of this, for her, is that donald trump, former president of the united states really did try, he really did decide, that he would try and stave off these 34 felony convictions by attacking her as a liar. he did not have to do that in order to defend himself against the charges in fact it wasn't even a good legal strategy. but that's what he did, and his attacks on her in those terms, have led to years of ever increasing threats against her. so we will talk about that tonight including what that has meant for this one light -- life that she has on her, we will talk about what it means for us citizens whose history has been shaped now by this one

woman, insisting that she should tell what she knows, regardless of the threats, regardless of the targeting and the consequences. with that, here is stormy daniels. >> stormy, thank you for doing this. you do not have to do this, i was very surprised that you agreed to do it but i've been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. i guess i mostly just want to know how the last few weeks have been, this has been a many year saga for you but this is a different time since the conviction it's been a few weeks. >> it's been, it's been a lot, it's been intense and i think part of that comes from my mistake of in my mind, thinking that this would be an ending, that this would be the light at the end of the tunnel.

this was what i was working towards, it would be like a movie when the judge hits the gavel and the credits roll and it'll be tied up in a bow and it would be done but that's not how real life works. my friends were, you know, celebrating and sending me messages, not just friends, everybody, people who were happy that the verdict came down and it was over but meanwhile, i knew for me, it was just getting started because for every person that was excited and thrilled and congratulating me, there was somebody else that was very upset. anna just poured gasoline on some of that stuff i had been going through the entire time. and, you know, it's common knowledge now that a lot of the people were docs, i know michael cohen was docked, and i

know it's directly related because it happened while i was literally still on the stands . >> what's the consequence for you and having your address out there? >> my mailbox was destroyed, i animals have been injured my daughter can't go outside, there's press and looking lose out there. i'm afraid to go outside i'm afraid to go out and mow the lawn i can't go anywhere, i'm afraid of being followed, the death threats are so much more graphic and detailed and brazen, people don't care. and it's scary, you know, and leading up to the trial was hard enough like flying up here repeatedly and sitting in the rooms and going through things and relating all these terrifying moments. the only thing that kept me going was thinking that there was an end in sight. and there's not. >> is there any sense of i mean, vindication, i mean this

obviously, trump being convicted, this is not a case that you brought, the prosecutors brought it. >> i was subpoenaed to testify. again, not your case. >> that said, the way the case was presented to the jury, the prosecutor described to the jury in his closing arguments, stormy daniels is the motive saying how crucial your testimony was. your testimony was not only riveting, it was integral to the case. does the verdict sort of feel like a vindication at least in the sense that the story is straight now and the jury agreed that it was wrong when he called you a liar. >> yes, but no. i don't understand. life is not fair i'm getting constantly attacked . called the stormy daniels hush money trial. was about falsification of business records and i was just one thing but i was the most exciting part and i was the one

that took the stand. i was the one whose testimony made such an impact, they could do didn't call karen mcdougall, when he was found guilty, for that brief moment, it was worth me testifying and i wasn't going to, i had to shut down my life. if you know me, i didn't we, that's a big deal because i didn't want anything to be misconstrued or entered into evidence and create more work for the prosecution or get the case thrown out or disallow me from testifying, did i want to testify? no. do you know how scary that is, especially when -- if i knew how nasty susan nichols was going to be to me, i knew if i

didn't testify, it would look like i was not to be trusted, there was a reason they didn't want me to testify so i knew i had to and it was important as soon as he was found guilty, i knew that i had done the right thing in one aspect, the other side of that, like you said, i didn't ask for it, i was subpoenaed, so much of the hate mail i get is drop the charges i'm like, i didn't sue him, i'm getting nothing, it cost me so much to come appear and testify, i was not paid, registered republican, sorry, she's like, get out. >> when you say you paid to come up here -- >> of course, multiple times, i wasn't compensated or written a check or anything like that. this has cost me so much money, i wasn't paid by anybody. my testimony that i was subpoenaed, that everybody considers me to have done this

great duty and been a hero, which i'm not, i just told the truth. i was just a human being. i didn't go into a burning building, i didn't, you know, i just said the truth. and i've never changed my story, despite what other people said, go back and look at interviews online from 2019, 20, 21, my story has not changed at all. >> what you are saying was very much what the prosecution said, and i want to ask you about for lack of a better word, the way that you fit into their case because i want to hear from you whether or not you agree with that, i want to give you your voice, he said the defense has found great lengths to discredit stormy daniels, they've shamed her and they've suggested that her story has changed over the years. to be sure, there were parts of the testimony that were binge

worthy but the whole episode in the suite at harris, that was uncomfortable. some details about what the suite looked like, the contents of his toiletry bag, the topics of conversation, those are the details i submit to you that ring true, the kind of details you would expect someone to remember. if she didn't testify about those details, it would give the defense more ammunition in their efforts to call her a liar. in his opening and closing, trump's lawyers told you that ms. daniels testimony does not matter. that's a bridge too far. it's certainly true we don't have to prove that sex took place, that's not an element of the charge but the defendant, trump, knew what happened in that hotel room and to the extent that you credit daniels testimony, that only reinforces his effort to buy her sounds. the defense knows that because if the testimony were so irrelevant, why did they work so hard to discredit her. i'm saying her story is messy and makes people uncomfortable to hear, but that is kind of the point, that is the display

that the defendant in one of the american voter to see. in the simplest terms, stormy daniels is the motive. that is why your testimony was not just an amazing display, but also american history the way it fits into this. do you agree with the way they characterized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> the way that he is saying that your testimony was a function. >> absolutely. why would i make some of that stuff up? yeah, i am. for those out there who are like they let her get up there and say whatever she wanted, keep in mind i did nothing but answer the questions, i didn't present an essay to a spoken word theater. and for those who said it was uncomfortable to witness or two here, i've lived it. all you had to do was hear my very pg rated version on the stand. i had to relive it.

i had to say it in court in front of all the people knowing that it would be public record and my daughter was going to read this and everybody was going to read this. and preparing for the case, remember i had to go back and think about all of these details and make sure i had everything absolutely accurate. and it is important because it proves i was telling the truth and maybe this is too far for our conversation but for all the people who like to drag me about talking about what his genitals look like, don't you think for a second that i wish there was something else i could prove, i wish he had a birthmark that looks like the state of texas on his shoulder or a funny looking mall, that's the only thing that proves that he did take his clothes off in front of me and you know as well as i that if he hadn't, that i was lying, he would have whipped his junk out a long time ago and proved that i was a liar and it's the only thing i have. and he knows i'm telling the

truth which is why he wanted to shut me up. >> as soon as you were done testifying about what actually happened in the hotel suite, trump's defense lawyers moved for a mistrial may said what you testified at the detail was going to be prejudicial to the jury, the whole trial had to be thrown out and the judge said no to the mistrial and the judge said listen, you shouldn't have said at the outset in the opening statement that the sexual encounter never happened, that set this case up so the jury has to assess the credibility of stormy. >> yeah, they put me on the spot. >> but the detail of that testimony will be the basis of trump's appeal. he will appeal the decision, that will be the way that he tries to get out of the convection. can we go over that testimony, would you be willing to go through that testimony, there's no cameras in the court.

nobody has seen it. i printed out that section, is it weird? >> i've done a lot more weird. >> when we come back, stormy daniels, gives her testimony and explains what she meant by it. there were no cameras in the courtroom for the testimony or the trial but we have cameras here now, so we will have that, next. i should mention when ms. daniels told me while she was on the stand, she was docked. she's right. late in the afternoon the first day testified, the new york post did publish an article showing pictures of her home in florida separately i should also tell you we have confirmed today that in court that day, her first day of testimony, the defense counsel seek to enter into -- referral address listed, unredacted and ms. daniels alerted the judge which

is reflected in the transcript. it says and exhibit is shown on the screens. i offer this in evidence. prosecutor, objection, the judge, sustained in the witness meeting stormy daniels, it says in the transcript, whispering to the court, this has my address. trump's defense lawyer, well, let me ask you, you only partially fill this form out right, prosecutor, objection, the judge, sustained. the witness whispering to the judge, that has got my address. whereupon the following proceedings were held at sidebar meeting nobody in the court could hear this happening but we have the transcript of it now at the sidebar the judge says to the lawyers, she meeting stormy, she turned to me and looked fearful and said, that's got my address. you asked to approach and she said, that's got my address, she is very much afraid of this form meaning, afraid of this form being shown with her

unredacted address on it. the form was not admitted into evidence. it was not therefore shown to the jury but it was shown on what they call the screen for the witnesses and the parties which means it was displayed on a screen visible to stormy daniels herself and visible to the lawyers on both sides and visible to the defendant. i'm telling you this because i want you to know that we checked, she is telling the truth about what happened to her on the stand. more to come. we will be right back. r. guarcall 833- leaffilter to get started. r. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions. they really put us at ease. end clogged gutters for good. call 833.leaf.filter, or visit leaffilter.com today.

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here's why you should switch fo to duckduckgo on all your devie duckduckgo comes with a built-n engine like google, but it's pi and doesn't spy on your searchs and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. can we go over that testimony, would you be willing to go through the testimony right now? >> yes. >> i printed out that section of the transcript, is this weird? >> i've done a lot weirder. trust me.

>> i'm going to be -- >> i have to put my glasses on. >> stormy daniels testimony in the criminal trial of donald trump was as consequential to the case as it was showstopping for everybody who heard about it. we are going to recount the testimony here now and i'm interrupting right now and not just jumping into it straightaway mostly because i need to warn you some of the conversation is about to be graphic . in the next couple of segments in particular, the conversation will not be appropriate for all audiences, so, if you are squeamish or watching with kids, or if you for any reason don't want to hear descriptions of unwanted sexual contact, this is your cue to check out and come back and join us in a few minutes. and with that said, here we go. stormy daniels, with her own testimony and me very awkwardly playing the part of susan officer, the prosecutor who questioned stormy daniels under direct examination.

>> at the end of this is when they asked for the mistrial. i will be the prosecutor and you be you. >> you are good, susan. >> thank you. what happened when he left the bathroom. >> when i came out i expected to exit go around the bed and out where we had been sitting and talking and hopefully say okay, time to go. i've been here long enough. that was when i realized i had been there that long and when i opened the door to come out, mr. trump had, to the bedroom and was on the bed, basically between myself and the exit. >> what was he wearing? >> boxer shorts and a t-shirt. >> what was your reaction? >> at first i was startled, i was not expecting someone to be there especially minus clothing and that's when i had moments where i felt sorry, that's when i had that moment when i felt the rooms been in slow motion. i felt the blood basically leave my hands and feet almost like if you stand up too fast and everything kind of spends. that happened and then i just

thought, oh god, what did i miss read to get here because the intention was pretty clear. somebody stripped down to their underwear and was posing on the bed like waiting for you. >> i'm going to stop for a second, when you say, the blood left your hand and feet, you mean that you were shocked, surprised that he had come into the bedroom. >> yeah, honestly, even if he had his close on i would have been startled, then when i realized, you know, he was minus a lot of clothing. like what's happening. >> so the prosecutor continues, what happened when you came out of the bathroom, did he stay on the bed. >> what did he was on the bed like this, i made the joke, he was doing his best bertran old.

>> oh he extended himself on the bed to show you the length of his body? was he joking? >> i don't think so. i wish, that would have made it better. >> was there a their skin rug? there was not. what happened after that? >> when i went to step around i laughed nervously and try to make a joke of it and step around and leave, even though i was moving like i was in a fun house, i thought to myself great, i put myself in this bad situation like what did i do, how did i miss read everything. he stood up between me and the door, not in a threatening manner, he didn't put his hands on me or nothing like that. i said, i have to go, i got ago, he said, i thought we were getting somewhere.

we were talking and i thought you were serious about what you wanted, if you ever want to get out of the trailer park, basically, i was offended because i never lived in a trailer park. >> at this point, there are objections and sidebars within the judge, you volunteered here, he was not physically coercing me -- >> now. >> are you trying to establish that you didn't want to do it but he wasn't making you do it? >> i didn't want to say it was any sort of rape or physical violence or force, also, i could have taken him. >> but you said, i put myself in this bad situation. what is the badness of the situation? >> i had and asked who also worked at a pr firm and he had these little pearls of wisdom. he said the press will always use the picture of you looking the worst, not the best. put yourself in a bad situation and bad things happen. he used to say that all the

time. don't get in a car with your friends who are drinking. i have put myself in a bad situation. but, how did i miss read it? if a friend is wasted falling down drunk and you know they are drunk, i was like what q did i miss, that told me to expect that when i came out of the bathroom that he was there? >> after the sidebar, the prosecutor says, you were both standing up at this time? >> yes. >> what happened next, briefly. >> i think i just blacked out. now here is something i want to say. i think they have a typo here. i didn't say blacked out, they have taken that and run with it. if you go back and look at my older interviews when i had the exact same thing, i said blocked it out. >> you think that you said i blocked it out. >> blacked out means i fainted

and i never lost consciousness. i just blocked it out. >> your next line is i was not drugged. >> but people have taken this and run with it. you woke up on the bed? no. i blocked it out, go back and look at old interviews, it's the same. i know i have an accent. i think i just blocked it out. i was not drugged and i never insinuated i was on drugs, i was not drunk, i never said anything of the sort, i just don't remember. >> and there are objections that happened between the lawyers and the judge. but what they are discussing is whether you are implying that that you had been drugged or anything, what it seems to me like what you are really trying to say is there's parts of the sexual encounter that i don't remember even now. >> and i have to tell you, rachel, like i did write about this in my book, when i was meeting with prosecutors over and over and they were nice people, they tried to be gentle with me.

they were asking me the questions over and over because they wanted to make sure that they were doing their job correctly and they were also probably trying to prepare me for how awful the defense would be although no one could have prepared me for how awful that woman was to me and how much she tried to shame me. they asked me such horrific, specific questions like, did his tongue dart in and out of your mouth i don't even know if you can use some of this, when he was touching her breast, did he like flick or roll or play with your , what did his skin feel like, can you describe it, things that would prove , when he said he didn't use a condom, well what did you do with the semen. and it made me remember things that i didn't remember until then. like i remember going in the car and having to wipe it off my leg. this is the stuff that is not in the testimony that could

have been. as i remember more of that, it still makes me -- it narrows down the window of what i remember and don't remember. there's still a tiny part that i don't and what i have blocked out i have started to remember, it's so terrible, what am i still not remembering? >> why do you think you have blocked some of it out? >> i mean i just said, >> do you think it's your brain protecting you from the memory? >> i thought that there was something wrong with me or that i didn't, i didn't say this stuff because i thought people would say that i was lying or making it up well you remember something that happened to you, that was then, and as i've gotten older and i've met people that have gone through similar things or have talked to therapist there like no,

that is a defense mechanism. it's way more common for you not to remember these pieces then for you to remember it. and it made me feel a little better in a messed up way or a little more normal. but i'm not a liar. >> stormy daniels is my guest this evening, we have reached out to the trump campaign to ask for comment, they have not responded but we will have more with ms. daniels in just a moment. >> this is one of those things that i hadn't thought much of, it's not in my book -- book -- hi honey. ahhh...ooh. look, no line at the hot dog stand. yes! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.♪

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we're back more of my interview with stormy daniels, for this section of the interview i will reiterate what i said earlier which is this portion of our discussion may not be appropriate for all ages or anyone who doesn't want to hear relatively raw discussion about unwanted sexual contact. the details are directly relevant to establishing in front of the journey the credibility of ms. daniels and contrasting the credibility of mr. trump's denial that there is sexual encounter took place. if you don't want to know the details, this is your fair warning. let's go. >> this testimony obviously the way the defense reacted to it was to say this is so presidential -- prejudicial to trump, now that we've heard

this, we have to throw this out. the judge allowed it because you having this detailed recollection, allows the jury to assess her credibility about this thing that happened when trump said it did not happen. but for all of us watching you testify, for everybody who read this transcript, a whole new thing emerge from this that we didn't know before which was, this kind of feels like he was offering you a part of the apprentice, and you did not want to sleep with him and you were pressured into it and it wasn't that it was rape but it was manipulative. >> it definitely was manipulative and i thought so long, i haven't said that it was me too, it would open me up to that whole strippers can't be raped, adult film actresses can't be raped. oh, you've seen so many men in

your underwear, you can't be shocked to see them. you are not expecting it, you know, yeah, >> so i'm reluctant to do this but do you want to keep going? >> sure. >> question, can you briefly describe at some point did you end up on the bed having sex? >> yes . >> and you describe where you had sex with him? >> the next thing i know, i was on the bed, somehow on the opposite side of the bed from where we had been standing which is, sidebar, how do i get there, so there is still missing time -- >> so you came out of the bathroom -- >> you would think i was here but i ended up on the side of the bed on the far side of the bed and you don't know how? >> there's still, every day i wake up and think, is tonight, i don't remember, when i go to bed, is tonight the time that i

remember these pieces and how terrible is it or maybe it's not, i don't know. so i was on the bed, somehow on the opposite side of the bed from where we had been standing. i had my clothes and shoes off. i believe my raw was still on and we were in missionary position. >> there's objections, discussion with the judge, without describing the position, do you remember how you got your clothes off? >> no. >> is that a memory that has not come back to you. and did you end up having sex with him on the bed? >> yes. >> do you have a recollection of feeling something unusual that you have a memory of? i left this objection here just so you could see it because at this point trump's lawyer objects and it is sustained, and the prosecutor moves on and does not follow up but her question was, do you have a

recollection of feeling something unusual that you have a memory of, do you know what she was asking you about there? >> about his skin. >> his skin? >> and this is one of those things that i hadn't remembered or thought much of but as they were questioning me, i was in my mid-20s, and i was an adult film actress which means that the people i was performing with were adult film actors, ripped, young men, close to my age, who make their money off of their bodies. i had never touched skin before that felt like that, and the word i think i used was like creepy, and it was so shocking to me that i remember that moment like what it felt like, anyway, i think that's what she was asking because i was not asked directly about his .

>> do you remember anything other than the fact that you had sex on the bed. >> i was staring at the ceiling, i don't know how i got there . >> and she asked, did you touch his skin? >> yes. >> she was circling back to that and there were objections. the next thing she asks is was he wearing a condom? >> no. >> was that concerning? >> yes. >> did you say anything? >> no. i didn't say anything at all. >> i know from rereading your testimony this morning that in the conversation you had with trump ahead of the sexual encounter, you had told him that you worked for wicked, wicked entertainment specifically because they were the only condom mandatory

company. >> i've been under contract with wicked pictures my entire career and only scenes you will see without a condom is the ones that were shot from my personal website or you know, whatever, every single movie that i ever made for wicked pictures, even if i was performing with my on-screen partner, my daughter's father, we even had to use a condom. >> and so, the application that i draw, knowing those two things about you is him not wearing a condom was of concern to you and you not saying anything about it is upsetting to you. >> absolutely and if i had gone there with the intention of having sex or being an escort or being paid for sex, i would have brought my own condom because i am allergic to latex, in every scene i've ever done on film or in my personal life if i needed to use a condom,

i've always had to provide my own because i have to use polyurethane. i've never relied on the male performer or the guy i was on a date with to bring their own condom because they always bring lay tech and that makes me feel like i am on fire. >> show him not using one and you not saying anything at this point, is sort of emblematic at least in your telling, of the fact that you did neither intend or expect this to be sex with trump. >> i would have come prepared so i would have been safe and i would not have felt like my genitals were on file -- fire. >> the prosecutor continues, do you recall how it ended, the sex? >> yes. >> was a brief? >> yes. >> do you remember at some point getting dressed? >> yes . >> tell us what you recall about getting dressed . >> sitting on the end of the bed noticing it was completely dark outside now and it was really hard to get my shoes on, my hands were shaking so hard.

i had on tiny little, they were scrappy gold heels with tiny buckles. my hands were shaking so hard i was having a hard time getting dressed and he said oh great, let's get together again honeybunch, we were great together. i just wanted to leave. >> did you say no at any time during sex with him? >> no. i didn't say anything at all. ems th add wow to your wa, help your party set-up pop, and new things to help you fall in love with your family room again. when you want one-of-a-kind items to give your home a little refresher... etsy has it.

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it is one of my standup jokes. >> we've got more to come of my interview with stormy daniels, including some of the funny parts. i mentioned earlier that we checked assertions about the unredacted address being listed in court documents while she was on the stand testifying in trump's criminal trial. that did happen and it was shown to the lawyers for both sides as well as the defendant. prosecutors objecting to it being admitted into evidence and thereby shown much more widely. ms. daniels was also correct that a conservative tabloid newspaper, the new york post, published an article that included the name of the town where she lives and photos of her home while she was in the middle of her testimony in the afternoon between the first and second day she was on the stand. i also want to tell you she mentioned another instance of something similar. >> a dhl driver posted my address online, because something was sent to my house.

they still have not taken it down and i cannot believe dhl is allowing this. for those of you who might use dhl as your courier, don't do that, because they don't care if their employees put your address on the internet. >> we looked into this one as well. ms. daniels is right again. we are able to confirm that a contractor who delivered a package to her home posted a photo of the handheld electronic device couriers use, showing her name and the town. we asked dhl for comment about that and they did confirm it happened. they tell us dhl express confirms a courier employed by a service provider posted a customer's name and partial address on social media after completing a delivery in june. this regrettable violation of privacy does not reflect our standards. we require all service providers maintain confidentiality. the photo has been removed and the courier is no longer

assigned to dhl shipments. the photo was removed, but only because and only once we asked about it in order to fact check this interview. it is a hallmark of this time in republican politics that anybody that has stood up in some capacity that puts them at odds with donald trump, anyone, soon finds themselves targeted and threatened by the trump movement, but harassments and threats follow like clockwork when he singles out targets at his rallies and in interviews and online and for some of the people who get targeted, like members of congress or judges or fbi officials were members of the military, all of whom he has singled out for attack, for people who are members of robust institutions like that, the threats and targeting that come from opposing donald

trump, the threats and targeting is still terrorizing, still scary and dangerous, but maybe less so because folks in those kinds of jobs can get help. members of the january 6 committee in congress, they got additional security from congress. u.s. officials had to step up security around judges. we even had members of the military moved to different military housing for their own safety for protection from the kinds of forces that the trump movement unleashes. but for individual flesh and blood humans were not part of a robust institution, or just people, private citizens who nevertheless get crosswise with trump and his movement, where is there help? there is no security detail to call for. there is no sergeant at arms looking out for their safety. there is no one on the other side of any panic button. that is true for the jurors in these cases. it's true for the election workers they have been harassing and threatening. it is true for our guest tonight and that should mean

something for all of us, because part of rejecting violence and intimidation as part of our political system is protecting the individual people being subject to it and that is not happening yet in our country, which is a problem. more of my interview with stormy daniels is still ahead. stay with us. door insect barri. one application kills and prevents bugs for 365 days. nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. the virus that causes shingles is sleeping... in 99% of people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention.

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. thank you for being here for this special edition of the rachel maddow show tonight. the republican nominee for president was expected to be sentenced next week. it has now been delayed until september, but that is expected to be when he will be sentenced for his conviction on 34 felony counts. those crimes pertain to his effort to prevent my guess to this evening from speaking publicly about a sexual encounter she says she had with him shortly after the start of his current marriage. as you know, he was convicted of using his business, of creating false business records, to try to disguise a $130,000 payment to my guest

tonight, so she would not speak publicly before the election about her alleged sexual encounter with him. in this part of my interview with stormy daniels, we will go through a little bit more testimony from the trial, but also her elaborating and explaining what she meant. the criminal charges brought in this case were brought because of the means by which trump tried to cover up and keep secret and disguise the fact that he paid this woman to keep quiet about this story. her elaboration is important, because what was it about this story that was so worth paying to keep quiet? that was worth the gymnastic and even baroque efforts he went through to try to cover up that the payment was made? here is stormy daniels. did you notice afterwards a dvd on the side table? >> yes, it was a dvd i'd given him earlier and a gift bag from the show. it was on the nightstand, that

i signed. >> and i stop for a second. this is a really stupid question and i'm sorry. why does an adult film companies sponsor a hole at a golf tournament? is it funny because it is a whole? >> you are ruining one of my standard jokes, rachel. >> your is me, totally prude, unable to talk about this. i had to keep saying it over and over again and it almost killed me. that's why it's funny? >> i think it is. now that you've ruined my comedy act, it is basically like they brought myself and some other stars. they brought their own holes to the holes, so it's like bringing sand to the beach. thank you. >> here all week. try the veal. so you were given the dvd because wickett had brought you and other people from the company to this golf

tournament. >> we were the only adult film company, but we were in the gift room and everybody got to sponsor a hole. i still can't say it without laughing. it's kind of genius. >> it's inherently funny. >> it is. the dvd was in a gift bag and they brought different dvds of the actresses and that one in particular was a movie that i wrote, directed, and starred in. he specifically wanted something i had directed, which is why in my stupidity i thought maybe he really is serious about having me on, you know, the apprentice. >> because when you met him at the hole on the golf course, you sort of immediately start talking about the fact you don't just start in films. you have also directed. >> right, the owner of the company was introducing everybody who was there. this is my girl that is this a miss.

publicist or whatever. this is my star and director, stormy daniels. he was a go, so you are the smart one, you also direct? >> and that was the basis on which you had a continuing conversation with him about directing and your role in the business? >> correct. >> and what you're saying when you say oh stupid me, by that you mean his expression of interest in you as a director and asking business related questions about the industry meant that you thought you were having a business discussion? >> that it was legit and why it was not a red flag to have a meeting. you went to a married guy's hotel room, what were you expecting? first of all there are two parts of that. one, no one knew who melania was back then. i did not know he was married. i knew he had famously been divorced from his wife before, because everyone saw that scandal. did anyone in 2006 know the words melania trump? >> they had been married just the previous year. >> but no one knew.

i did not know he was married until he told me, so there was that. second, when people think hotel room they think hotel rooms the 99% of people have stepped foot in where you walk in and there is a bed and a dresser and it is a hotel room. this was a room that was bigger than my apartment and had a dining room, living room, two bedrooms. if you had told me that it was a hotel room and you did not know it was a hotel room, i would not think it was. it was an apartment. those of us who conduct business at conventions or things like that don't think twice about going to someone sweet that has a conference table in it. people like to be, oh, you know what you're getting into. no, i've gone to 100 other meetings in rooms exactly like that, but nothing bad happened. >> the prosecutor says, this is almost to the end. when you are leaving and went to leave, what if anything did you do or say?

>> he said we have to get together again soon. he went to kiss me goodbye and i left as quick as i could. >> did he say anything to you about talking again? >> yes, he said we should get together again, we were fantastic together. i want to get you on the show and that's it. he didn't offer to pay me or anything or a cell phone number or anything like that. >> did he ask you to keep your encounter confidential? >> no. >> did he express about his wife finding out? >> no. >> did you end up having dinner in his room? >> no. >> do you recall how you got back to your hotel? >> it was a cab. >> did you talk to anyone about what happened? >> yes. i told very few people that we had sex because i felt ashamed that i didn't stop it, that i didn't say no. a lot of people would assume and make jokes. i did not think it was funny and did not want to hear about it or assume that i was a paid

prostitute, which i wasn't, so i told very few people. i also didn't want it to get back to anybody i was dating. >> so the overall picture in terms of your real life and not just this case is this was a situation where you thought there might be a legit business reason to talk to this man who is more than twice your age who you have no intention of sleeping with. he turned it into a sexual encounter. you did not want it and you did not feel good about it and you were embarrassed about it when it was over. >> yeah. >> having to recount this in detail in order to rebut his characterization of you as a liar, even though you have told this story and a lot of different venues and you've told this under oath and this is the testimony from the trial, it seems like it is still not easy to talk about. >> no, because i have to do it over and over and over and over and over. i think about how hard this must be for a rape victim who

was physically -- at least they get to say to the prosecutor and they don't get to read about it every day. i felt terrible for those people. now i understand why a lot of people never come forward. >> when we come back, stormy daniels talks about why it is that this fight, this confrontation she ended up in with donald trump, means she is not making a living and why an action by trump's lawyers right now, this week, she believes has put her in imminent risk of losing her home and possibly having an arrest warrant issued for her. that is next. >> you can be the biggest trump's supporter, a woman voting for trump. do you love trump? yeah. how do you feel about him having your young daughters legal name, address and identifying information? rmatio?

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when you say you paid to come out here, you pay drone expenses to testify? >> yes, multiple times. i was not compensated or written a check or anything like that. i got nothing. this has caused me so much money. i wasn't paid by anybody. >> we are back to my interview with stormy daniels. i want to let you know ms. daniels was not paid for this interview, we do not do that

under any circumstances. we also came to learn under preparing for this interview and the circumstances with which we would be discussing these matters with her, we came to learn she is in fairly dire circumstances as evidenced by the fact she recently asked a friend to open an emergency gofundme campaign to try to pay the attorneys fees that she has incurred and as she tries to hold on to her house. for that part of it i'm going to let ms. daniels explain. so the case in which you just testified was a criminal case brought by prosecutors. you are subpoenaed to be a witness. the reason that you will trump money is a separate matter. your former lawyer, michael avenatti, now in prison for defrauding you and other clients, brought a defamation suit against trump by you. that case was thrown out and trump was awarded attorneys

fees and to make a long story short it totals about $600,000 that you need to pay trump. >> correct and i was never allowed to give testimony. they never saw my evidence. it was never ruled whether i was telling the truth or not, so for all those people saying you lost the defamation case because they found you to be a liar or untruthful, that is not true. they never looked at the case. others say e. jean carroll was called the exact same things by donald trump and not only did they accept her case and let her take the stand and have her day in court, they've given her millions. meanwhile my attorneys fees of racked up to over half $1 million. >> do you have any means of paying that? >> no, and nor do i think i should. it's not fair. >> in terms of what happens next, the judge just lifted the gag order, so he is still prohibited from attacking court

staff and prosecutors and their families, but he is now free to attack jurors and witnesses, which means you. when the gag order was in place did you benefit from that at all? are you worried about it being lifted? >> no, i mean, he's going to say what he's going to say anyway. i'm not afraid about what he could say about me or what he could call me. i'm telling the truth. i'm the only one who has continued to tell the truth. i can prove everything that i have ever said, so i'm not concerned about those things. i am concerned with him saying something that will make his followers come after me more. >> has that changed over time? the kind of language? how has it changed over time? >> the biggest thing is they are not hiding. they used while the box and now they are using real stuff. there are facebook threads from people in my own community

planning to do things to my house and my family. i sent some messages over on another show and they couldn't even error everything they said, graphic details about how they were going to rape everyone in my family including my young daughter before they killed them. graphic things about a child. most importantly, trump is trying to, i believe, trying to make an example out of me of anyone who dares to stand up for him and again the day before yesterday, they're trying to take my partners house. as nothing to do with me. he has a mortgage, the bank owns it. i don't on that house. i pay him rent every month because i split bills with him, but i don't own it. my name is not on the title. they are trying to take his house. they are demanding personal information about my 13-year-

old daughter. i refused to fill out that form. >> identifying information about her. >> yes. where she lives, legal name, date of birth. why do you need that about a child? so i did not fill out that form, i left it blank and they are rejecting it and sent it back and are demanding that i be held in contempt with sanctions and that i have to pay this money. i have to pay $600,000, plus sanctions and contempt of court, which comes with a warrant -- >> arrest warrant. >> arrest warrant because the things i said which they found him guilty of, i also have to pay and i am protecting my child. you could be the biggest trump's supporter, a woman voting for trump and ask that woman are you going to vote for trump? yeah. how do you feel about him having your young daughter's legal name, address, and identifying information?

>> yeah. >> and no woman out there i can imagine would give that information up. they got my address. look how quickly that happened. you think i'm going to give up the other address? because sometimes she is with me and sometimes with her father. why would i do that? >> there are basically two impasses now in terms of the money and the resolution of the defamation case and you paying legal fees. one is you don't have the money to pay, but they want to as part of that to give over the identifying information about your daughter. >> even if i had the money, even if i had billions, it's not fair. why do i have to pay it? i am so happy for e. jean carroll, but literally the same sentences, liar, whack job, whatever, she gets over 80 million and it cost me $600,000. cost my partner his house and caused my daughter her privacy for the rest of her life. it's not fair.

>> i feel like, stormy, the trump movement has destroyed or tried to destroy a lot of people for posing a threat to donald trump, a challenge to him. there are, as you've been describing, millions of americans if not tens of millions of americans who have an interest in these various efforts to expose his behavior and hold him accountable for crimes or treachery or whatever, but the interest doesn't help you, right? more than half the country is rooting for him being held accountable. the people who are actually in the middle of these conversations are being terrorized and menaced and ruined and overall this system, i'm sorry to put this to you, but i feel like the system is unsustainable and lastly real live human people who are willing to stand up and be counted and speak the truth against him are themselves protected.

>> you could be me. we could all be me. anybody out there, they are trying to seize property of people that i care about that is not even mine, to scare me. they are trying to ruin my daughter's life before she even has a chance to live it and they are trying to financially ruin me and take money, because i told the truth and i should not have to do that and i've never asked for help before. i've been fighting this by myself. you know even the people closest to me, my best friends, my partners, everyone else can take a break, you know? my best friend is my tour manager and assistant. he's lived through the most with me, but even he gets to take breaks. he gets to get on a plane and go home and take his kids and family to disneyland and not think about it. i am the only person that every single day for the last six years, this has bled into my life. some days worse than others. some days i am packing pellets

out of my horses body and being served papers and sobbing, because i missed my daughter and she's not safe if she is with me sometimes and sometimes it is just things i read on the internet. even you, rachel. there have been moments where you've got to check out at least for a minute. i've never had a day like that in over six years. >> your work life has been severely curtailed by this. what changed? you still have stuff going. you've been doing comedy events. >> i just came back to that last week, but same thing. the owner of the club got death threats. i'm from new orleans and she didn't care, but how many places are out there that i don't know about that are afraid to book me? >> how are you going to make enough money to live? >> i'm not. between legal fees and not being able to work, because remember the trial got pushed,

so i had taken off a bunch of time before and then it got extended, so there were several months where i didn't do anything. i stopped doing my podcast because they were freaking out about everything i said. i didn't even get to tell the podcast company why i stopped talking to them because i didn't want to create more work for the prosecution, basically or i didn't want to be taken off the witness list for all of the reasons i told you earlier. you know, there are so many things. people being afraid to hire me. i do have some really great people. i hosted a tv show on out tv and i'm starting to go back and do some standup comedy and things like that, but i've lost a lot more than i've made. mostly my peace, mostly my daughter's privacy and time, time i will never get back with her. >> given that are you worried about trump potentially being elected for a second term? >> shouldn't we all be worried about that?

>> are you worried in particular for you? >> yes. >> why? >> because i think he will try to make even more of an example out of me. and also because people, his followers, will probably be even more bold. thinking if they do something he will pardon them. >> in terms of his own criminal liability, he is set to be sentenced soon. you said shortly after the verdict that you thought he should be sentenced to jail and community service working for the less fortunate door, quote, being the volunteer punchingbag at a woman shelter. do you still feel that way? >> money is no object for him. for someone else finding him a bunch of money could teach him a lesson. in his case his supporters throw it at him. we are talking about a man convicted of 34 felonies and in one night, how much was it? $100 million was given to him

when he was found guilty. i wish i was found guilty. you know, fighting him is not going to do any good. i think taking away his control, which is freedom, by a jail sentence, would teach them the most. he is so used to being in control. it is not about locking them up. taking away his control would be more helpful in this case, i think. making him do community service. especially with people he looks down upon so much. >> on the issue that was just mentioned of a potential arrest warrant for ms. daniels and the contempt of court review being sought by trump's lawyers, we have confirmed that there is an august 7 court hearing on these matters. as you heard a few moments ago, ms. daniels says she is not able to pay the $600,000 she

has been ordered to pay. she is concerned about documents in the case that require her to reveal personal information about her daughter. her lawyers asked for a confidentiality agreement. trump's lawyer told the judge that ms. daniels should have to hand over the information now and afterwards she can ask the court for a confidentiality agreement. the court actually sided with trump and his lawyers on that. on her gofundme tonight, ms. daniels posted this. quote, this information is not only a violation of a child's privacy but has the potential of real and immediate danger. in response to fearing for her daughter's safety, strome declined to provide these details unless a confidentiality agreement was granted. no mother should be forced to choose between protecting her innocent child and contempt. we have reached out to the council representing mr. trump

in this matter. we reached out to him for comment. we have not heard back. we will let you know what we do here, if we do hear from him. but we will be back with the conclusion of my exclusive interview with stormy daniels, right after this. >> gone stormy. (♪♪) plateau de fromage! [cheering] oh la la! [cheering] don't panic. gift easy with gift mode, now on etsy. it ain't my dad's razor, dad. ay watch it! it's from gillettelabs. this green bar releases trapped hairs from my face... gamechanga! ...while the flexdisc contours to it. so the five blades can get virtually every hair in one stroke. for the ultimate gillette shaving experience. the best a man can get is gillettelabs.

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in the middle of your testimony, but with you not in the room because there was a recess, the judge calls the

lawyers up and judge merchan says to todd blanche, trump's defense lawyer, i understand your client is upset at this point, but he is cursing audibly and shaking his head visually and that is contemptuous. it has the potential to intimidate the witness, which is you, and the jury can see that. the judge, i am speaking to you at the bench because i don't want to embarrass him. blanche, i will talk to him. the judge, you need to speak to him. i will not tolerate that. blanche, i will talk to him. the judge, one time i noticed when ms. daniels was talking about rolling up the magazine and he shook his head and looked down and later i think it was looking at you. later when we were talking about the apprentice he uttered a vulgarity at the you that time. please talk to him during the break. that is about your testimony, something that happened in the middle of your testimony, but you are not there for that exchange. what the judge is describing,

did you see that? did you notice it in the courtroom? >> i tried not to look at him because i wanted to remain on point. not because i was afraid. i probably shouldn't admit this. also if i had noticed, if i had seen or heard him say she is lying, i don't know if i could've controlled myself. >> what would you have done? >> who knows. i don't know if i just, i shouldn't have had to be there. no person should have to be there and to have him in open court when we are trying to follow the rules and be respectful, he was still disrespecting me and calling me a liar. i might have snapped and said something back. and that is what he wanted. >> so you would not have been intimidated, but you were worried that you might have -- >> gone stormy. because i am not the same naive young girl that was in that room.

>> what could the justice system and what could the people of this country have done better for you? what could have been done differently to give you more support so this would not have caused the kind of ruination in your life that it has caused? >> i should have been allowed to present my case like e. jean carroll was, my defamation case, because i would not be facing a 600 hours -- a $600,000 judgment. i would've one. i don't need millions. i need to not know him and have peace and be able to work. now that they have doxed me, because of this situation, i need a safe place for my family and my animals and i don't know if i will ever have that, because it just keeps happening. >> what you have experienced is something that is absolutely individual to you, but also

part of a pattern of people who confront trump or tell the truth about things about trump that hurt him because they do not reflect on him well and there is something wrong with us as a country for not being able to protect you from that when you have done nothing wrong, so i cannot apologize on behalf of the country. that's not my job. but i want you and your family's life to be better than it is and i want you to have more protection than you have and i hope you can get it. >> thank you and i am prepared. this is my hill to die on and i will probably, potentially, lose everything and even be arrested because i'm not giving up my daughter's personal information and if that means i am in contempt of court, i have done everything. i've shown up in court. i've told the truth. i've met with prosecutors. i honored the subpoena. i've done everything they asked me to do and they have not protected me. this is my line in the sand. this is my little girl. >> good luck. >> thank you.

>> thanks, stormy. >> they have not protected me. this is my line in the sand. this is my little girl. you know, this interview surprised me in so many ways, but where i landed on in these conversations with ms. daniels is at this very simple place that no one is superhuman. our real-life villains are not superhuman. we sometimes make them out to be, they are not. they are human beings with all of the frailties and human decency that every human being is born with. but our real-life heroes are not superhuman either and you know, stormy daniels is, certainly she is a symbol. she is a brand name. she is an indelible and consequential proper noun in american history, right? she is someone who will always be part of this crucible, this

sort of trial by fire of the american principal that every american is subject to the rule of law. she is also a mom, right? she is also just a woman and she has had six years of death threats and doxing and she is facing losing her house and is facing potential arrest on contempt charges for not, after all of that, for not handing over personal identifying information about her 13-year- old daughter. we checked that assertion for ms. daniels as well, looking at the court documents relating to this case. she is facing contempt of court, the possible ruling that she is in contempt of court, which comes with it a possible arrest warrant and she is facing it because she is not filling out a document that is demanding that she hand over identifying information about her daughter, including where her daughter can be found.

her daughter is 13. she says she won't do it, so what will happen to her? and who is protecting her? she is not part of any institution that has any sort of institutional defense. she is just a citizen and no one is superhuman, but you should not need to be superhuman in this country to tell the truth about a powerful person. i've got more ahead, stay with us. ♪♪ not all toothpastes whiten the same. crest 3d white removes 100% more stains for a noticeably whiter smile. new personal best. crest.

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what i am saying is that her story is messy, and makes some people uncomfortable to hear. it probably made some of you, meaning the jury, uncomfortable to hear. but that's kind of the point. that's the display the defendant didn't want the american voter to see. in the simplest terms, stormy daniels is the motive. that is why your testimony was not just an amazing display, but also american history, the way it fits into this. do you agree with the way they characterized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> away he was saying your testimony functioned and why it was relevant to this crime. >> yes absolutely. >> stormy daniels was the motive, why the crimes were committed. as the prosecution says her story is in many instances uncomfortable to hear her. she describes it as

uncomfortable to recount, but it is now indelibly etched into our american history. it is central to the first-ever conviction of an american president. its details, details recounted in court and further details recounted in this interview tonight. they are themselves a searing insight into the personal behavior of an american president. but also she is an indelible part of american history, because the targeting of her as a result of her testimony, the target of what has happened to her life because she is viewed by president trump as one of his enemies because of this testimony. the story of what has happened to her because she told the truth in this case, because she has testified in this case, is a harrowing story of the kind of menace, the kind of physical menace that the trump movement uses against their perceived enemies and that is one thing when it is directed at people

who are in relatively safe positions of power with resources and with structures around them that can protect them from the worst. it is something else when it is just a human out there in the world trying to cope alone and the targeting of the people who are hurt by and menaced the most by the trump movement is something we have not yet figured out how to defend against in this country and it is not going to get better until we do. joining us now is our nbc news presidential historian. it is very nice of you to be with us tonight. thank you for making the time. >> thank you. what a poignant interview. >> let me ask you reaction. this is the first interview she has done after the trial. we thought the trial was done, maybe it isn't now, but as a historian looking at this, what do you think of it? >> well, she is a brave woman

and i don't want to tie her immediately to early american history, but i almost can't help but do it. the founders and early americans, we fought for independence from england so we would have a system unlike england. no one could ever stand up to the king. you could not criticize the king without destroying your life. the whole idea of america was that this would be a society where we would benefit from everyone -- the founders said the humblest person could stand up to the president of the united states, criticize him and say he had done things wrong. he might not like it, but that person would not have their life destroyed and that is what happened to stormy daniels and obviously it may be even worse now given the ruling by the supreme court yesterday that is going to make the power imbalance between american presidents and are most modest citizens, that imbalance is now

tripled in the last two days. >> i've been thinking a lot about that ruling in light of this interview. it seems to me and you know you study these things much more in- depth than i do, but i have always felt some sort of genius of the basic idea of the united states and our constitutional republic is that we recognize the rights of man. the naturally given rights of man and we have set up a government that is to protect our rights, to protect our rights from each other and particularly from a ruler, from a government that would infringe on our rights. and this supreme court ruling is about taking away our protections, taking away our rights to protect ourselves against a ruler who has just had his rights expanded, so that he can do stuff to us with

impunity and we can no longer defend ourselves against it. and i think of it in terms of the congress and i think in terms of the judiciary and in terms of the institutions of our civic life, but when i think about it as individual, atomized humans, flesh and blood people who don't have institutions around them, it feels like a complete inversion of the overall idea of american rights and the american ideal. >> yes, the supreme court has taken us backwards in that respect. you know you and i have talked a lot about watergate and one good result of the watergate scandal and nixon's departure and the reform laws passed by congress later on, the idea was that we would never again have a situation that applied to too many presidents between 1930 and 1974, where they abused the irs. they abused the fbi. they abused the power of

government to go after colonists who criticized them or people that got in their way. they would have bank executives in the hometown of the person who had done this go after the person and take their mortgage away. what stormy daniels was reminding me of when she was telling about how much she has gone through. the point is that we should have a judicial system, a supreme court, that protects the week, not the strong. instead in the last 48 hours the supreme court through its non-wisdom in my view, is deciding to give even more power to the strongest person in the society. society. the president of the united pr states, and also, other strong people anaround that person. that's not the way it's supposed to be. it's not progress. >> yes, and is something we need to compensate for if the courts are not going to do it. we have to find other ways, as

a civic entity, to protect the people among us. >> because our government will trample on our liberties and do corrupt things, and no one will be able to stand up to it. >> michael beschloss, nbc news presidential historian. thank you for being here k tonight. it's a pleasure to have you here. >> in queue, me too. after the supreme court's ruling on the immunity case, trump and his counsel did move quickly to try to get his 34 felony convictions in new york thrown out. trump was set to be sentenced for those convictions next week, but today, the judge in the new york case announced that he ce will delay sentencing until september, and i want to show you the letter that judge merchan wrote to the attorneys. he said, "the matter is adjourned to september, 18th, 2024, for the imposition of sentence, if such is still necessary." he says, if such is still

necessary. he means if the supreme court decision does not effectively wipe out that juries unanimous guilty verdict against trump on 34 felony counts. it's an open question. joining us now is catherine christian, former assistant attorney in the manhattan d.a.s office. thank you for being here. i appreciate your time. >> glad to be here. >> let me first ask you, this interview with stormy daniels tonight, we set this interview in motion when we believed that trump's new york trial, in which he testified, was over. now, clearly, it's not with the sentencing delay, with the judge entertaining and new motion to throw out the case given what happened at the supreme court. is there anything about this interview with ms. daniels talking publicly about her testimony, which could still have any bearing on the trial? >> no, i don't think so. the proceedings aren't over oc because he has not been

sentence, but the trial is over, her testimony is complete, she is a free agent. there is nothing that she said. basically, the transcript, she added additional detail, but nothing that will harm the case. >> if judge merchan does entertain this -- he is going to entertain this motion from the defense to set aside the verdict. with the new york district th attorney's office then have the option of retrying the case and using a different selection of evidence to try to prove the same criminal charges, but without reference to official acts by trump? >> assuming that judge merchan grants the motion to set aside the verdict, which he probably shouldn't, rdbecause i don't believe these are official acts, the tweets, but testimony. but, assuming he did, the case would have to be retried, and the d.a.s office would exclude

those tweets, hope hicks' testimony, if the judge were to decide those were official acts, which i don't think he will. the reality is, if you exclude that testimony, there is a mountain of evidence that points to guilt, so you would not need that evidence, and that would be the argument, quite frankly, the d.a. is going to make in their response to this motion to set aside the verdict, but there was nothing presidential -- prejudicial, and if they were deemed official acts, if you took them out, there is still a mountain of evidence. >> the way that would work, and forgive my ignorance on this, rg i'm not a lawyer, but if some of the evidence was determined or is argued that some of that evidence is relevant to his official acts as president, you could not extricate that evidence and leave the jury's verdict intact. you would need to be present

all of the evidence, minus those things, to a new jury, to and get a new verdict. you would have to go through from day one again? >> i don't think so. i think judge merchan, if he were to determine that these were official acts, and i will say again, i don't think they are official acts, he could also determine, you know what? there was such a mountain of evidence, even if you took these acts out, the jury would've still found guilt. often, cases are reversed on appeal because presidential evidence was in that was so presidential -- prejudicial that it denied a fair right to a trial, so the new york court of appeals reversed harvey weinstein's conviction. it was harmless error, so was no need to reverse the conviction, which could happen in this case. >> harmless error. the trump era in american e politics, we all have to learn

to be mini lawyers. we have to learn all the jargon, all the language, how all of these things work. you should not have to learn this much criminal law to follow politics, but that's where we are. catherine christian, former attorney in the manhattan d.a.s office. i really appreciate you being here to help us put these pieces together. >> you are welcome. >> we will be right back. stay with us. which can cause. most toothpastes quit working in minutes. but crest pro-health's antibacterial fluoride protects all day. it stops cavities before they start... crest.

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