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on that note, i wish you all a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me and i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. thanks for joining us for a special edition of the rachel maddow show which is my interview with stormy daniels. one ms. daniels agreed to this interview, it was i think in large part because that trial was over. the republican presumptive nominee for president, former president donald trump's criminal trial in new york centered on the payment that was made to ms. daniels to try to stop her from speaking publicly about her experience with mr. trump. ms. daniels testifyed in that trial. mr. trump was convicted by the

jury on all 34 counts with which he was charged. after his conviction, after that trial was over, that is when ms. daniels agreed to sit down with me for her first american interview after the conclusion of the trial. but now, it seems, the trial maybe is no longer concluded. it is no longer over. today, in new york, judge juan merchan agreed to delay sentencing in this case. he is facing up to four years in prison. that sentencing will be delayed now so that judge merchan can consider a new motion from trump's defense lawyers. the new motion from them is because of the just astonishing u.s. supreme court ruling yesterday which went further than basically any legal observers had expected in granting trump immunity for prosecution from anything he did in office that could be loosely construed as an official act. one of the most radical

elements, justice amy coney barrett wouldn't sign onto this part of it. one of the most radical parts of it is that the ruling not only establishes that trump can't be prosecuted for so- called official acts, it means even if his alleged crimes were committed on his own time as a private matter, prosecutors bringing charges against him for those crimes can't use any evidence in court that relates to any arguably official actions. so in the new york criminal case related to this payment to stormy daniels, trump's lawyers are not going to try to claim essentially that some of the crucial evidence that was used to convict him should retroactively be deemed inadmissible on the basis of the fact he was doing president stuff when he did those things. that showed up as evidence in this case. and now, with this new supreme court ruling, anything that is

a presidenting can't be cited as evidence even if it is evidence to support proving a totally unrelated crime he did as a private citizen. so, long story short instead of sentencing donald trump next week, thursday, next week, which is when it was initially scheduled, judge juan merchan will instead consider the motion from trump's defense lawyer to throw out the jury's guilty verdict. he will consider the defense lawyers about that and against that from the prosecutors and on september 6th, he will rule on that motion to throw out the guilty verdict. if he doesn't throw out the verdict, trump's sentencing will go ahead on september 18th. rather than next week, it will be september 18th. so that was all just decided today. and one of the things it means in practical terms is if the republican party's presidential nominee, donald trump, is going to be sentenced to prison in this case, that sentence will

now be handed down seven weeks before the election instead of 17 weeks before the election. which is when it was going to happen. they say most americans don't really start paying attention to election until after labor day. well now, if he is going to get a prison sentence, it will be well after labor day. instead of months before labor day which had been the original schedule. ta-da. since the debate between trump and president joe biden, democrats have of course been newly and acutely focused on questions about president biden's age. and the question on whether he should stay as the party's nominee or if he and vice president harris have her take over the top of the ticket. this is an increasingly animated conversation on the democratic side. presumably the democrats realize they need to move forward on this. whatever they are going to do.

on the republican side since the debate, donald trump is moving backwards. he is moving backwards to this criminal trial at which he was convicted. >> how many billions of dollars do you know in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public. for doing a whole range of things, having sex with a porn star while your wife was pregnant? what are you talking about? you have the morals of an alley cat. >> i didn't have sex with a porn star. >> not only is donald trump's defense team asking effectively to reopen this case and to push any possible sentencing of trump ten weeks closer to the election than it otherwise would be, he is also as of this debate, i mean, he is still trying to tell america that stormy daniels is lying. that they did not have sex.

he does not, for lack of a better term, he does not need to litigate that point. but he keeps trying to. still. even now. even at that debate. the reason stormy daniels testified in detail under oath at his criminal trial about her interaction with him is because he built his legal defense in large part on his contention that the sexual encounter between them did not happen. he didn't have to do it that way. but he did. it was not necessarily the strongest approach in this case considering he was convicted unanimously on all counts and that insistence this she is lying and the sex between them never happened, it has had very practical consequences for all of us. because his denial, his claim that this never happened, his insistence that denial be made, it meant that the jury in his criminal case was asked to

assess, well, okay, which of these accounts is credible? his claim that it never happened or her testimony that it certainly did happen? it can't be both. all of these details of the sexual encounter between them, not because any one of us was desperate to know. but because it was a crucial question at his criminal trial. is she recounting this event in the way the jury finds credible? because that was the test. her credibility. the details she had to remember . high importance in terms of the first ever felony conviction of a u.s. president. there is his legal approach he

has continued since the trial. even with last week's presidential debate. his denial this encounter happened. right? there are the legal consequences of that for him. there are the things we can't ever forget consequences for us as the american public because of all the details we had to learn as a consequence of that being his legal strategy. but there is also stormy daniels. herself, a real life person. and the human fact of all of this for her is that donald trump, former president of the united states, really did try, he really did decide that he would try to stave off these 34 felony convictions by attacking her as a liar. he did not have to do that in order to defend himself against the charges. it wasn't even a good legal strategy. but that is what he did. and his attacks on her in those terms have led to years of ever

increasing threats against her. so we will talk about that tonight including what that has meant for this one life she has on earth and her family's life and safety. and what it means for all of us citizens whose country's history has been profoundly shaped now. by this one woman insisting that she should tell what she knows. regardless of the threats, regardless of the targeting. with that, here is stormy daniels. stormy, thank you so much for doing this. >> thank you for having me. >> you do not have to do this. i was very surprised that you agreed to do this. but i have really been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. i guess i just want to know how the last few weeks have been. but this has been a difficult time. >> it has been a lot. it's been intense. and i think part of that comes

from my mistake of in my mind thinking that this would be an ending. that this would be the light at the end of the tunnel. this was what i was working towards. it would be like a movie when the judge hits the gavel, the credits roll and a nice little gift bow an it would be done. but that's not how real life works. and my friends were celebrating and sending me messages. meanwhile, i knew for me it was just getting started. for every person who was excited and thrilled and congratulating me, there was somebody else that was very upset. >> yeah. >> and it just poured gasoline on some of that stuff that i have been going through the entire time. and it is common knowledge now

that a lot of the people were doxed. i know cohen was doxed. they were trying to dox jurors. i was doxed. and i know it is directly related because it happened while i was literally still on the stand. >> what's the consequence of you having your address out there? >> my mailbox was destroyed. my animals have been injured. my daughter can't go outside. there's press and looky loos all out there. i'm afraid to go outside. i'm afraid to go out and mow the lawn. i am afraid of being followed. people are so brazen and it is scaried. flying up here repeatedly, reliving all of these

terrifying moments. the only thing that kept me going was thinking there was an end in sight. and there is not. >> is there any sense of i mean, vindication? this obviously, trump being convicted, this is not a case that you brought. this is a case prosecutors brought. >> i was subpoenaed! >> you had no choice about it. the way the case was presented to the jury, stormy daniels is the motive. considering how crucial your testimony was. your testimony was not only rivetting it was absolutely integral to the case. does the verdict feel like a vindication to you? >> yes, but no.

i mean, i don't understand. life is not fair. and i'm getting constantly attacked. it was called the stormy danieling hush money trial and that's not what it was. i was just one thing. i was the most exciting part. i was the one that took the stand. i'm the one with the testimony that made the impact. they could have call others. they didn't call karen mcdougal. when he was found guilty for that brief moment, it was worth me testifying because first i wasn't going to. and i had to shut down my life. i was basically by choice, dequesterred. i didn't work. i didn't tweet. if you know me, that's a big deal. i didn't tweet because i didn't want anything to be misconstrued or create more work for the prosecution. did i want to testify? no! do you know how scary that is? especially once i got up there.

if i had known how nasty susan was going to be to me, i might not have. but if i didn't, it would look like they didn't want me to and i was not to be trusted and there was a reason they didn't want me to testify. i knew i had to and it was important. as soon as he was found guilty, i knew i had done the right thing. in one aspect. the other side of that is like you said, i didn't bring these charges. i didn't ask for it. i was subpoenaed. so much of the hate mail i get is drop the charges. i didn't sue him. i'm getting nothing. it cost me so much to come up here and testify. i was not paid. i'm a registered republican! sorry. [ laughter ] she's like, get out. >> when you paid to come up here, you paid your own expenses to come testify. >> multiple times. i wasn't compensated or written a check. i got nothing. this has cost me so much money.

i wasn't paid by anything. my testimony that i was subpoenaed that everybody considers me to have done this great duty and be a hero which i am not, i just told the truth. i'm just a human being. i didn't do anything heroic. i didn't go into a burning building. i just said the truth. and i have never changed my story despite what other people said. go back, look at interviews online from 2019, 2020. 2021. my story has not changed at all. it's the only one that has been consistent. >> let me ask you about that. what you are saying was very much what the prosecutors in the closing argument. i just want to ask you about the way the prosecution for lack of a better word used you. i want to hear from you whether or not you agree with that. he said the defense has gone to great lengths to discredit her.

they shamed her. they tried to suggest her story has changed over the years. it has not. not in any way that is significant. to be sure, there were parts of her testimony that were cringe worthy. but that whole episode in the suite was uncomfortable. some of the details of what the suite looked like. the contents of the toiletry bag and the topics of conversation. those are the details that ring true. the kind of details you would expect someone to remember. if she didn't testify about those details it would give the defense more ammunition in their efforts to call her a liar. to argue she was never in the hotel room. it is certainly true we don't have to prove that sex actually took place. but that the defendant trump knew what happened in the hotel room. to the extent you credit stormy daniel's testimony, that increases incentive for him to buy her violence. if her testimony was so irrelevant, why would they work

so hard to discredit her? her story is messy, it makes some people uncomfortable to hear, it probably made some of you, meaning the jury, uncomfortable to hear, but that is kind of the point. that's the display the defendant didn't want the american voter to see. in the simplest terms, stormy daniels is the motive. that is why your testimony was not just an amazing display, but also american history. the way that fits into this. do you agree with the way they characterized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> the way that he is saying your testimony functioned and why it was relevant? >> yes. absolutely. why would i make that stuff up? and you know, yeah. i am. and i am comfortable with it. for those people out there who were like they let her get up there and say whatever she wanted. and i was, keep in mind, i did nothing but answer the questions. i didn't go up there and present an essay to spoken word theater. i answered questions.

and if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask me the questions. for those who said it was uncomfortable to witness or hear? i lived it. all you had to do was hear my very p g-rated version on the stand. i had to relive it. i had to say it in court in front of all these people. knowing it would be public record. that my daughter was going to read this. everybody was going to read this. and preparing for the case. it proves i was telling the truth. for all the people who like to drag me about talking about what his genitals looked like. don't you think for a second that i wish there was something else i could prove? i wish he had a birthmark that looked like the state of texas on his shoulder or funny looking mole. that's the only thing that proves that he did take his clothes off in front of me. and you know if he hadn't, if i

was lying he would have whipped his junk out a long time ago and proved i was a liar. it's the only thing i have. he knows i'm telling the truth which is why he wanted to shut me up. >> as soon as you were done testifying, trump's lawyers moved for a mistrial. they said what you testified and the detail was going to be prejudicial to the jury. it wasn't relate today the crimes that were charged and the jury hearing that, it was going to make them have so much improper prejudice toward trump that the whole trial had to be thrown out. the judge said no to the mistrial and the judge said, listen, you shouldn't have said right in the out set of your opening statement that the sexual encounter never happened. that set this case up so that the jury has to assess the credibility of stormy versus the defendant. >> they put me on the spot. >> the detail of that testimony

will be the basis of trump's appeal. can we go over that testimony? would you be willing to go through that? no cameras in the court. i printed out that section. is that weird? >> i have done a lot weirder. >> i walked right into that one. >> when we come back, stormy daniels gives her testimony here. and explains what she meant by it. there were no cameras in the courtroom for this trial. but we have cameras here now. so we'll have that next. i should also mention that when ms. daniels told me while she was on the stand, she was doxed, details about her home were exposed, she's right. late in the afternoon of the first day she testified, the new york post tabloid newspaper did publish an article showing pictures of her home in florida. separately, i should also tell you, we confirmed today that in

court that day, her first day of testimony, trump's defense counsel did seek to enter into evidence a document with her home full address listed on it unredacted. she alerted the judge which is reflected in the transcript. it says an exhibit is shown on the witnesses and party's screen. trump defense lawyer, i offer this in president. prosecution, objection. the witness, stormy daniels. it says whispering to the court meaning whispering to the judge, quote, this has my address. trump defense lawyer. well, let me ask you, you only partially filled the form out. trump defense lawyer, can i approach? the witness against stormy daniels whispering to the judge, that's got my address. where the following proceedings were held at side bar. nobody could hear this happening but we have the transcript of it now. at that side bar, the judge

says to the lawyers, she, meaning stormy, she turned to me, she looked very fearful and said that's got my address. you asked to approach and she said, that's got my address. she is very much afraid of this form. being shown with her unredacted address on it. that form was not admitted into evidence. it was not shown to the jury. but it was shown on what they call the screen for the witnesses in the parties which means it was displayed on a screen visible to stormy daniels herself. visible to the lawyers on both sides and visible to the defendant. i'm telling you this because i want you to know that we checked. she is telling the truth about what happened to her on the stand. more to come. much more. we'll be right back. come. much more. we'll be right back. true miracles of evolution. where there is one, others aren't far behind. always scavenging for food, the cockroach... well that's horrifying. ortho home defense max indoor insect barrier.

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can we go over that testimony? there's no cameras in the court. nobody has seen it.

would you be willing to do that? >> yes. >> i printed out that section of the transcript. is this weird? do you mind doing this? >> i have done a lot weirder. >> i walked right into that one. >> i have to put my glasses on. >> that's fine. that's fine. >> stormy daniels' testimony in the criminal trial of former president donald trump was as consequential to the case as it was just show stopping for everybody who heard about it. we are going to recount that testimony here now. and i'm interrupting right now and not just jumping into it straight away because i need to warn you some of this conversation is about to be graphic. and these next couple of segments in particular, will not be appropriate for all audiences so if you are squeamish or watching with kids or if you for any reason just don't want to hear descriptions of unwanted sexual contact, this is your cue to check out and come back and join us in a few minutes. here we go. stormy daniels with her own

testimony and me awkwardly playing the part of susan, the prosecutor who questioned her on direct examination. here we go. >> this is on your direct examination. >> okay. >> at the end of this is when they ask for the mistrial. so i will be the prosecutor and you be you. you're good susan. so what happened when you left the bathroom? >> when i came out of the bathroom, i expected to exit. go out around the bed. say time to go. that is when i realized how long i had been there. when i opened the bathroom door to come out, mr. trump had come into the bedroom and was on the bed. basically between myself and the exit. >> what was he wearing at the time? >> his boxer shorts and a tee shirt. >> what was your reaction to seeing him like that? >> at first i was startled like a jump scarement i wasn't expecting someone to be there. especially minus a lot of clothing and that is when i had moments where i felt, that's when i had that moment where i

felt the room spin in slow motion. i felt the blood leave my hands and feet. like if you stand up too fast and everything spins. that happened, too. and i thought oh god, what did i misread to get here because the intention was pretty clear. somebody stripped down to their underwear and posing on the bed like waiting for you. >> just going to stop for a second. when you say the blood left your hands and feet. you meant that you were shocked? surprised? that he had come into the bedroom and taken off his clothes? >> yeah. honestly, even with his clothes on i would have been startled. then when i realized that, you know, he was minus a lot of clothing that i was just like oh no. what's happening? >> so, the prosecutor continues. what happened when you came out of the bathroom? did he stay on the bed?

>> when i exited he did a pose like this. that he was doing his best bert reynolds. >> like to show you the length of his body? >> uh-huh. >> was he joking? >> i don't think so. i wish. that would have made it better. >> was there a bearskin rug? there was not. what happened after that? >> i laughed nervously and tried to make a joke of it. and stepped around and leave. though i was moving like i was in a fun house. i felt like i was in slow motion. i thought to myself, great. i put myself in this bad situation. like what did i do? how did i misread everything? he stood up between me and the door. not in a threatening manner. he didn't come at me. or rush at me. he didn't put his hands on me. nothing like that. i said i have to go. i got to go. he said, i thought we were

getting somewhere. we were talking and i thought you were serious about what you wanted. if you ever want to get out of that trailer park, basically, i was offended because i never lived in a trailer park. >> at this point in the testimony, there are objections and there is a side bar with the judge. you volunteer here. he was not physically coercing me. are you trying to establish that you didn't want to do it but he wasn't making you do it? >> um, he wasn't, i didn't want to ever say there was a rape or that he like used a weapon or physical violence or force. also, i could have taken him. >> but you said, i put myself in this bad situation. what is the badness of the situation? >> i had an ex who also worked at a pr firm and had these

little pearls of wisdom. the press use the picture of you looking the worse, not the best. you put yourself in a bad situation, bad things happen. he used to say that to me all the time. don't get in a car with your friends who have been drinking. i have put myself in a bad situation. but, how did i misread it? if your friend is wasted falling down drunk, you know they are drunk. i was like what cue did i miss that told me to expect that when i came out of that bathroom that he was there? >> after the side bar, the prosecutor says you were both standing up at this time? >> yes. >> and what happened next, briefly? >> i think i just blacked out. now, here is something i want to say. i think they have a typo here. i didn't say blacked out. they have taken that and run with it. if you look at my older

interviews, blocked it out. >> what you said was i just think i blocked it out? >> yes. because blacked out means i fainted. i never lost consciousness.. >> your next line is that i was not drugged. >> but people have taken this and run with it. oh, you blacked out? you woke up on the bed? >> right. >> no. i blocked it out. go back and look at old interviews. i know i have an accent. but i think i just blocked it out. i was not drugged. i never insinuated i was on drugs. i was not drunk and never said anything of that sort. i just don't remember. >> and what you mean, again, there is some objection theres that happened between the lawyers and the judge. but what they are discussing there is implying that you had been drugged. seems what you are trying to say there are parts of the sexual encounter i don't remember even now. because i blocked them out. >> i have to tell you, rachel, and i did write about this in

my book. the prosecutors were nice people. they tried to be gentle with me. they were asking me the questions over and over because i wanted to make sure they were doing their job directly. they were also probably trying to prepare for me how awful the defense was going to be. though no one could have prepared me for how awful that woman was to me and tried to shame me or try to. they asked me horrific questions like did his tongue dart in and out of your mouth. i don't know if you can use some of this. when he was touching your breast, did he flick or roll or pinch your nipple. can you describe his skin? things that would prove, you know, when he said he didn't use a condom. what did you do with the semen. and that made me remember things that i didn't remember

until then. like i remember being in the car going back and having to wipe it off my leg. this is the graphic stuff that is not in the testimony. that could have been. as i remembered more of that, it still makes me, it narrows down the window of what i remember and don't remember there is still a part i don't remember. what i have blocked out and started to remember is so terrible, what am i still not remembering? >> why do you think you blocked some of it out? >> everything i just said. just,. >> protecting you from the memory? >> yeah. and, i thought there was something wrong with me. that i didn't say this stuff because i thought people would say i was lying. you would remember. that was then. and as i have gotten older and i have met people that have

gone through some more things or talked to therapists about this, they are like, no, that's a defense mechanism. it is way more common for you not to remember these pieces than for you to remember it. and it made me feel better in a messed up way. or a little more normal. but i'm not a liar. >> stormy daniels is my guest this evening. we have reached out to the trump campaign to get comment and they have not respond. we'll have more with ms. daniels in a moment. this is something i had not thought about much in my book. . of the many issues that can bring. sometimes it's the smell of mildew when water has seeped into the interior walls. or maybe they've spotted mold in the attic. but most often it's the more obvious signs of damage like rotten soffit, fascia, or water pooling near their foundation. you can get ahead of costly damage by protecting your home's gutters today. we're in your neighborhood and ready to help.

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by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. we are back with more of my interview with stormy daniels. for this section of the interview, i will say this portion of the discussion may not be appropriate for all ages and relatively raw discussion of unwanted sexual contact. these details are relevant to the credibility of ms. daniels and contrast to the credibility of mr. trump's denial that their sexual encounter took place. that said if you don't want to know the details this is your fair warning. let's go. this testimony obviously, the way the defense reacted to it was to say this was so prejudicial to trump and it is not related to the crimes. now that the jury has heard

this, we have to throw the whole trial out. the judge allowed it. you having this detailed recollection shows your credibility. for all of us in the world, watching you testify. a whole new thing emerged in this that we didn't know before. that this kind of feels like he was offering you a part on the apprentice and you didn't want to sleep with him and you were pressured into it. it wasn't rape, but it was manipulative. >> it was definitely manipulative and i fought so long by saying it is not me too. i still have never said that it was. i still never said it wasn't me too. it wasn't rape because i knew that would open me up to that whole strippers can't be raped. adult film actresses can't be

raped. you know. which is just one tiny step above she was asking for it. she deserved it. which is what the defense tried to do on the stand. you have seen so many men in their underwear you can't be shocked to see them. well, when you're not expecting it, yeah! >> so, i'm reluctant to do this, but do you want to keep going? >> sure. >> question. can you describe, did you end up on the bed having sex? >> yes. >> can you briefly describe where you had sex with him? >> the next thing i know i was on the bed. somehow on the opposite side of the bed from where we had been standing. which is side bar. how did i get there? so there's still missing time. >> so you came out of the bathroom. >> you would think i was here. but i ended up on this side of the bed by the wall with the window. >> the far side of the bed away from the bathroom and you don't

know how? >> no. there's still a tiny, every day i wake up and think is tonight, i don't remember. when i go to bed tonight, is tonight the night i will remember these pieces and how terrible is it? or maybe it is not. i don't know. so i was on the bed. somehow on the opposite side of the bed. from where we had been standing. i had my clothes and shoes off. i believe my bra was still on and we were in missionary position. >> and there was some objection. discussion with the judge. prosecution describes. without describing the position, do you remember how you got your clothes off? >> no. >> is that a memory that has not come back to you? you don't at this point remember. is that correct? >> correct. >> and did you end up having sex with him on the bed? >> yes. >> do you have a recollection of feeling something unusual you have a memory of? now, i left this objection here in your notes so you can see it. at this point, trump's lawyer objections and it is sustained and the prosecutor moves on and does not follow up on that.

but her question was do you have a recollection of feeling something unusual you have a memory of. do you know what she was asking you about? >> about his skin. >> his skin? what do you mean? >> and this is one of those things i hadn't remembered or thought much of. it is not mentioned in my book. where they are questioning me. i was 20. i was in my mid 20s . >> 27. >> and i was an adult film actress which means that the people i was performing with were adult film actors, ripped young men close to my age. who make their money off their bodies. i had never touched skin before that felt like that. and, the word i think i used was like crepe. crepey. and that just, it was so shocking to me that i remember

in that moment. anyway. i think that is what she was asking. because i don't think she was brave enough to ask act his it could be either or. because there was an objection. >> law professor do you remember other than the fact you had sex on the bed? >> i was staring at the ceiling. i don't now how i got there. i made a note like i was trying to think about anything other than what was happening here. >> then she asks did you touch his skin. i think she was trying to circle back. there were objections there. the next thing she asks on the record and the transcript is was he wearing a condom? >> no. >> was that concerning to you? >> yes. >> did you say anything about it? >> no. >> why not? >> because i didn't say anything at all. >> i know from rereading your testimony this morning that in the conversation that you had with trump, ahead of the sexual

encounter, you had told him that you worked for wicked. you worked for wicked entertainment specifically because they were the only condom mandatory company in the business. >> i had been under contract with them my entire career. the only time you will see something without a condom is my personal website or like, you know. whatever. every single movie i ever made for wicked pictures, even if i was performing with my on screen with my real life partner, my husband, my daughter's father, we had to use a condom. >> and so, the implication i draw reading those two parts of the transcript is that him not wearing a condom was of concern to you and you not saying anything about it is upsetting to you. >> absolutely. and if i had gone there with the intention of having sex or being an escort or being paid for sex, i would have brought my own condom because i am allergic to latex.

and every scene i have ever done on film or in my personal life if i needed to use a condom, i had to always provide my own because i have to use polyurithane. i never relied on the guy because they use latex and that makes me feel like i'm on fire. >> so him not using one and you not saying anything is emblematic of the fact that neither intend or expect for sex with trump. >> exactly. i would have come prepared so i would have been safe. and i would not have felt like my genitals were on fire. >> prosecutor continues. do you recall how it ended the sex? >> yes. >> was it brief? >> yes. >> do you remember at some point getting dressed? >> yes. >> and tell us what you recall about getting dressed. >> sitting on the end of the

bed. noticing that it was completely dark outside now. and that it was really hard to get my shoes on. my hands were shaking so hard. i had on tiny little strappy gold heels with tiny little buckles. my hands were shaking so hard, i was having a hard time getting dressed. he said let's get together again honey bunch. we were great together. i just wanted to leave. >> did you say no at any time during sex with him? >> no. >> why not? >> because i didn't say anything at all. >> my conversation with stormy daniels continues right after this. thanks guys. [ surprised scream ] don't panic. gift easy with etsy.

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nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. one of my standup jokes, rachel. >> oh no! >> we have more to come of my interview with stormy daniels including some of the funny parts. i mentioned earlier, we had checked ms. daniels' assertions about her unredacted address being listed in court documents while she was on the stand testifying. that did happen and it was shown to the lawyers for both sides as well as to the defendant. prosecutors objecting to it being admitted into evidence and shown much more widely. ms. daniels was correct that a conservative tabloid newspaper, the new york post, published an article that includes a town where she lives and photos of her home while she was in the middle of her testimony in the afternoon between the first and second days in which she was on

the stand. she mentioned another instance of something similar. >> the hl driver posted my address online because somebody sent something to my house. they still have not taken it down. i can't believe they are allowing this. for those of you who might use it as your carrier, they don't care if your employees put your address on the internet. >> she is right again. we were able to confirm that a courier had package delivered to her home. posted a photo of the device. they confirmed it had happened. after completing a delivery in

june. we require all all service profecters to maintain confidentiality. the photo was removed but only once we asked about it in order to fact check this interview. anybody who has stood up soon finds themselves targeted and threatened by the trump movement. the harassment and the threats follow like clock work when he singles out his targets for disparagements. for some of the people who get targeted like members of congress, judges, fbi officials or members of the military, for people who are members of

robust institutions like that, the threats and the targeting that come from opposing donald trump, those threats are still terrorizing and it is scary and dangerous. maybe less so because folks can get help. members of the january 6th committee in congress, they got additional security from congress. u.s. marshals had to step up security around judges. we had members of the military move to different u.s. military housing for their own safety. for protection, for the kinds of forces that the trump movement unleashes. but for individual flesh and blood humans who are not part of some big robust institution, who are just people, private citizens who never theless somehow got cross wise with trump and his movement, where is their help? there is no security detail to call for. there is no sergeant at arms looking after their safety. there is no one on the other side of any panic button. that is true for the jurors in these cases.

it is true for the election workers. it is true for our guest tonight. that should mean something to all of us. because part of rejecting violence and intimidation as part of our political system is protecting the individual people who are being subject to it. and that is not happening yet in our country. which is a problem. more of my interview with stormy daniels is still ahead. stay with us. is still ahead. stay with us. i'll try and shorten down the story. so i've been having these headaches that wouldn't go away. my mom, she was just crying. what they said, your son has brain cancer. it was your worst fear coming to life. watching your child grow up is the dream of every parent. you can join the battle to save the lives of kids like brayden, by supporting st. jude children's research hospital .

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thank you for being here for this special edition of the rachel maddow shop show. the republican nominee for president was expected to be sentenced next week. now he will be sentenced in september. those crimes pertain to his efforts to prevent my guest from speaking publicly about a sexual encounter she says she had with him shortly after the start of his current marriage. as you know, he was convicted

of using his business of creating false business records to try to disguise a $130,000 payment to my guest tonight so she would not speak publicly before the election about her alleged sexual encounter with him. in this part of my interview with stormy daniels we will go through a little more of her testimony from the trial. but also her elaboration on that testimony explaining what she went. the criminal charges brought in the case were brought because of the means by which donald trump the candidate tried to keep secret and disguised the fact he had paid this woman to keep quiet about this story. her elaboration here is important. because what was it about this story that was so worth paying to keep quiet? that was worth the gymnastic even baroque efforts he went through to try to cover up that the payment was made? here is stormy daniels.

did you notice a dvd on the side table? >> yes. it was a dvd i had given him from the show on the night stand that i signed. >> can i just stop there for a second? this is a really stupid question. i'm sorry. why does an adult film company sponsor a hole at a golf tournament? is it because it is funny because of the word hole? >> you are ruining my standup jokes! >> here is me, a total prude unable to talk about this. they sponsored a hole and i have been having to say it over and over again and it almost killed me. is that why it is funny? >> i think it is. now that you ruined my comedy act. it's basically like they brought myself and some of the other stars. they brought their own holes to the holes so it is like bringing sand to the beach. thank you. >> well done. here all week. try the veal. so you had given them a dvd

because wicked had brought you and other people to the tournament. >> we were in the gift room. i still can't say it without laughing. sponsoring a hole. >> it is inherently funny. >> so the dvd was in the gift bag and they had brought different dvds of the actresses. that one in particular was a movie called three wishes that i wrote, directed and starred in. he wanted something specifically that i had directed which is why i thought in my stupidity, he was serious about having me on the apprentice. >> when you met him at the hole, on the golf course, you sort of immediately started talking about the fact you don't just star in films. you have also directed. >> the owner of the company was introducing everybody that was there.

this is my contract girls. such and such. this is our publy cyst. this is my contract star. and director stormy daniels. and he was like oh. so you're the smart one. you also direct. >> and that's the basis on which you had continuing conversation with him about directing and your role in the business. >> yes. >> and, is what you are saying about that, you thought oh, stupid me. do you mean his expression of interest in you as a director and his asking you business related questions ability the industry meant that you thought you were having a legit discussion? >> yeah. they were like you went to a married guy's hotel room. what were you expecting? two parts to that. nobody knew who melania was back then. i didn't know he was married. i knew he had famously been divorced from his wife before because everyone saw that scandal. did anybody in 2006 know the

world melania trump? >> they had been married the previous year. >> but nobody knew. i didn't know he was married until he told me. so there is that. second, it wasn't a hotel room when people think hotel room, they think of the hotel rooms, there is a bed and a dresser and it is a hotel room. this is a room that was bigger than my apartment. if you had told me that it was a hotel room and you didn't know it was, i wouldn't think it was. those of us who conduct business, don't think twice about going to someone's suite that has a conference table in it. and a table. people like you knew what you were getting into. no. i have gone to 100 other meetings but nothing bad happened. >> prosecutor says, this is

almost the end, when you went to leave, what if anything did you do or say? >> he said we have to get together again soon. he went to kiss me good-bye and i just left as fast as i could. that was it. >> did he say anything to you about talking again? >> yes. he said, we should get together again. we were fantastic together. i want to get you on the show. and that was it. he didn't give me anything. he didn't offer to pay me. or a cell phone number. nothing like that. >> did he ask you to keep your encounter confidential? >> no. >> did he express concern about his wife finding out? >> no. >> did you have dinner in his room that night? >> no. >> you said it was dark out when you left? >> yes. >> and do you recall how you got back to your hotel? >> a cab. >> did you tell anybody else about what happened? >> yes. i told very few people we had sex because i felt ashamed that i didn't stop it or say no. a lot of people would make

jokes out of it. i didn't think it was funny. i told very few people. i also didn't want it to get back to anybody that i was dating. >> so the overall picture in terms of your real life is that this is a situation where you thought there might be a legit business reason to talk to this man who is more than twice your age you had no intention of sleeping with. he turned it into a sexual encounter. you did not want it. and, you did not feel good about it and you were embarrassed about it when it was over. >> yeah. >> having to recount this in detail, in order to rebut his characterization of you as a liar, though you have told this story in a lot of different venues and told this under oath, this is the testimony from the trial. seems like it is still not an easy thing to talk about. >> no. because i have to do it over

and over and over. when i think about how hard this must be for a rape victim. i just feel so terrible for those people. now i understand why people don't come forward. when we come back, stormy daniels talks about why it is that this confrontation with trump means she is now not making a living. and, why an action by trump's lawyers right now has she believes put her in imminent risk of losing her home and of possibly having an arrest warrant issued for her. that's next. warrant issued for her. that's next. >> you could be the biggest trump supporter. ask that woman, are you going to vote for trump? how do you feel about him having your young daughters'

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a free trial today.

when you said you paid to come up here. you paid your own expenses to testify? >> multiple times. i wasn't compensated or written a check or anything like that. i got nothing. and this has cost me so much money. i wasn't paid by anybody. >> we are back to my interview with stormy daniels. i want to let you know that ms. daniels was not paid for this interview. we do not do that under any circumstances and we came to learn over the course of preparing for this interview that she is in fairly dire financial services. she recently asked a friend, a man named dwayne crawford to open an emergency go fund me campaign to try to pay the attorneys fees she has

incurred. and as she tries to hold onto her house. for that part of it i will let ms. daniels explain. >> so the case that in which you just testified, was a criminal case brought by prosecutors. you were subpoenaed there as a witness. the reason you owe trump money is a separate matter. your former lawyer who is now in prison for defrauding you and other clients brought a defamation suit against trump by you that case was thrown out and trump was awarded attorneys fees. >> correct. >> and that totals at about $600,000 you need to pay trump. >> correct. and i was never allowed to give testimony. they never saw my everyday. it was never ruled whether i was telling the truth or not. so for all of these out there saying you lost the defamation case because they found you to be a liar or untruthful is not true.

they never looked at the case. the other side was ms. e. jean carroll was called the same things by donald trumpment not only did they accept her case and let her have her day in court, they have given her millions. meanwhile, my attorneys fees have racked up to over half a million dollars. >> do you have any means of paying that? >> no and nor do i think i should. it's not fair. >> in terms of what happens next, judge merchan just lifted the gag order. so he is still prohibited from attacking court staff and prosecutors and their families but he is now free to attack jurors and witnesses which means you. when the gag order was in place, did you benefit from that at all? >> no. i mean, he is going to say what he is going to say anyway. i'm not afraid of what he could say about me or call me.

i'm telling the truth. i'm the only one who has continued to tell the truth. i can prove everything that i have ever said. so i'm not concerned about those things he might say. i'm concerned of him saying something that will make his followers come after you more? >> how has it changed over time? >> the biggest thing is they are not hiding. they used to all be bots. now they are using their real staff. there are facebook threads from people in my own community planning to do things to my house and family. i sent some messages over when barrett was on another show and they couldn't air everything they said. graphic details about how they were going to rape everybody in my family including my young daughter before killing them. graphic things talking about a child. most importantly, trump is

trying to make i believe, trying to make am example out of me about anybody who dares stand up to him and he will, they were trying to take my partner's house. i don't own that house. i pay rent every month because i split bills with him. but i don't own it. my name is not on the title. i doesn't put any money down on the house. they are trying to take his house. they are demanding personal information about my 13-year- old daughter. i refuse to fill out that form. >> identifying information about her? >> yes. where she lives, her legal name and date of birth. why do you need that about a child? i left that blank and they rejected it. and i have to pay this money.

i have to pay $600,000. plus sanctions and be in contempt of court which comes with an arrest warrant. the things i said which they found him guilty of, i also have to pay and i'm protecting my child. and you could be the biggest trump supporter a woman voting for trump asked that woman. are you going to vote for trump? do you love him? how do you feel about having your young daughter's legal information and identifying information? and no woman out there i can imagine would give that information up. they got my address, look how quickly that happened. you think i will give up the other address? because sometimes she is with me. sometimes she is with her father. >> there are two impasses now in terms of that money. and you paying the legal fees.

they want you as part of that. >> if i had the money, even if i had billions, it's not fair. why do i have to pay it? i'm so happy for e. jean carroll. but literally the same three sentences. liar, whack job. con job. whatever. she gets over $80 million and it costs me over $600,000? it will cost my partner his house? it will cost my daughter her privacy for the rest of her life? it's not fair. >> i feel like the trump movement has destroyed or tried to destroy a lot of people for posing a threat to donald trump or a challenge to him. and there are as you have been describing millions of americans if not tens of millions of americans who have a rooting interest in all of these efforts to confront him and expose this behavior and hold him accountable for

crimes. more than half the country is rooting for him being held accountable. the people who are actually in this confrontations are being terrorized and menaced and ruined. and overall, this system, i'm sorry to put this to you. but i feel like this system is unsustainable unless the real life human people willing to stand up and be counted and speak the truth against him are themselves protected. >> you could be me. >> yes. >> we could all be me. anybody out there. they are trying to seize property of people that i care about. that's not even mine, to scare me. they are trying to ruin my daughter's life before she even has a chance to live it. and they are trying to financially ruin me and take money. because i told the truth. and i shouldn't have to do that. and i have never asked for help before. i have been fighting this by myself.

you know. even the people closest to me. my best friends, my partners, everyone else can take a break. you know. my best friend dwayne, my tour manager, my assistant. he has lived it the most with me. but he gets to get on a plane and go home and take his kids to disney land and not think about it. i'm the only person that every single day for the last six years, this has bled into my life. some days are worse than others. some days i'm picking pellets out of my horse's body and sobbing because i miss my daughter. and she is not safe if she is with me sometimes. and some says it is just things i read on the internet. but every single day, even you, you live this. you, rachel, there has to be moments where you get to check out at least for a minute. i have never had a day like that in over six years.

>> your work life has been severely curtailed like this. you still have some stuff going. you have been doing comedy events. >> i just came back to that last week. but same thing. the owner of the club got death threats. >> really? >> i'm from new orleans. she didn't care. but, how many places are out there that i don't know about that i'm afraid to book me? >> it is literally between legal fees and not being able to work. remember the trial got pushed. i had taken off a bunch of time before and got extended. there were several months where i didn't do anything. i had to stop doing my podcast. i didn't want anything i used to create more work for the prosecution.

i do have some great people. i have lost a lot more than i made. mostly my peace and my daughter's privacy. and time i will never get back from her. >> given that, are you worried about trump being elected to a second term? >> shouldn't we all be worried about that? >> are you worried about it particularly for you? >> yes. >> why? >> because i think he will try to make more of an example out of me. you know. and also, because people i his followers will be even more bold thinking if they do something, he will pardon them. >> in terms of his own criminal liability, he is due to be sentenced very soon.

you said shortly after the verdict, you should he should be sentenced to jail and community service working for the less fortunate or quote being the volunteer punching bag at a women's shelter. you feel feel that way? >> yeah. money is no object to him. for somebody else, fining them a bunch of money could teach them a lesson. in his case, his supporters will throw it at him. we are talking about a man who was convicted of 34 felonies. and in one night. how much was it? like $100 million or something was given to him when he was found guilty? wish i was found guilty! you know? fighting him is not going to do any good. taking away his control, slash, which is freedom, by a jail sentence if that is what fits it would teach him the most. but he is so used to being in

control. it would be more helpful in this case. making him do community service. especially with those people he looks down upon so much. >> on the issue of a potential arrest warrant and the contempt of court review sought by trump's lawyers, we have confirmed that there is an august 7th court hearing on these matters. as you heard from her a few moments ago, ms. daniels said she is not able to pay the $600,000 that she has been ordered to pay. she is concerned about providing documents in the case that require her to reveal personal information about her daughter. her lawyers have asked for confidentiality agreement before she hands over that information. trump's lawyer told the judge that ms. daniels should have to hand over the information now and afterwards she can ask the court for confidentiality agreement.

the court sided with trump and his lawyers on that. on her go fund me, she posted this. this information is not only a violation of a child's privacy but has the potential of immediate danger. stormy declined to provide those details unless a confidential was granted. no mother should have to choose between protecting her child and contempt. we have reached out to the counsel representing mr. trump in this matter. we reached out for comment. we have not heard back. we will let you know what we do hear. if we do hear from him. but we'll be back with the conclusion of my exclusive interview with stormy daniels right after this. >> you are worried you would have gone stormy? have gone stormy? ♪ in my bag like a bunch of groceries ♪ ♪ all this cheese and greens just come to me ♪

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that's xfinity streamsaver™ for just $15 a month. all your favorites. all in one place. only from xfinity. for more watching and less spending... x marks the spot. do it all on the network made for streaming, and bring on the good stuff. so in the middle of your testimony with you not in the room, because there was a recess, the judge calls the lawyers up. and judge merchan says to todd blanche, trump's defense lawyer, i understand your client is upset at this point. but he is cursing audibly and he is shaking his head visually. that is contemptuous. it has the potential to intimidate the witness, which is you. and the your can see that. mr. blanche. ly talk to him. so the judge, i'm speaking to to you because i don't want to embarrass him. you need to speak to him. i will not tolerate that.

mr. blanche, i will talk to him. the judge, i noticed when ms. daniels was talking about rolling up the magazine and smacking your client. when we were talking about the apprentice, he uttered a vulgarity and looked at you. please talk to him at the break. i will. what the judge is describing there, did you see that? did you notice it in the courtroom? >> i tried to look at him because i wanted to stay on point. not because i was afraid. you know. and, i probably shouldn't admit this. if i had noticed that he was, if i had seen or heard him saying she is lying, i don't know if i could have controlled myself. >> what would you have done? >> who knows. i don't know if i should have

had to be there. in open court, trying to follow the rules and be respectful, he was still disrespecting me. and called me a lawyer. i might have snapped and said something back. and then, that's what he wanted. >> you wouldn't have been intimidated but you are worried you would have. >> gone stormy. because i'm not the same naive young girl that was in that room. >> what could the justice system and what could the people of this country have done better for you? what could have been done differently to give you more support so that this would not have caused the kind of ruin nation in your life that it has caused? >> i should have been allowed to present my case like e. jean carroll. i would not be facing a $600,000 judgment right now because i would have won. i absolutely would have won.

i don't want millions. i don't need that. i need to not owe him and i need to be able to have peace and be able to work. now that they have doxed me because of this situation, i need a safe place for my family. and my animals. and i don't know if i will ever have that. because it just keeps happening. >> what you have experienced is something that is absolutely individual to you. but it is also part of a pattern of people who confront trump or tell the truth about things about trump that hurt him. because they don't reflect on him well. people get destroyed. and there is something wrong with us as a country for not being able to protect you from that when you have done nothing wrong. and so, i cannot apologize on behalf of the country. that's not my job. but, i want you and your family's life to be better than it is. and i want you to have more protection than you have and i hope you can get it. >> thank you. and, i am prepared.

this is my hill to die on and i will probably potentially lose everything and maybe even be arrested because i'm not giving up my daughter's personal information. if that means i'm in contempt of court, i have done everything. i have shown up in court. i have met with prosecutors and honored the subpoena. i have done everything they have asked me to do. and they have not protected me. and this is the one thing, this is my line in the sand. this is my little girl. >> good luck. >> thank you. >> thanks stormy. they have not protected me. this is the one thing, this is my line in the sand. this is my little girl. this interview surprised me in so many ways. where i landed with this in these conversations with ms. daniels is at this very simple place which is that no one is super human. right? our real life villains are not

superhuman. they are human beings with all of the human frailties and human decency every human being is born with. our real life heros are not super human either. and, you know, stormy daniels is certainly, she is a symbol. she is a brand name. she is an indelible and consequential proper noun in american history. right? she is someone who will always be part of this crucible. this trial by fire of the american principle that every american is subject to the rule of law. she is also a mom. right? she is also just a woman. and she has had six years of death threats and doxing and she is facing losing her house. and facing potential arrest on contempt charges for not after all of that, handing over

personal identifying information about her 13-year- old daughter we checked that assertion from ms. daniels as well. looking at the court documents, related to this case, she is facing contempt of court, the possible ruling that she is in contempt of court which comes with a possible arrest warrant and she is facing it because she is not filling out a document that is demanding that she hand over identifying information about her daughter including where her daughter can be found. her daughter is 13. she says she won't do it. and so what will happen to her? and who is protecting her? she is not part of any institution that has any sort of institutional defense. she is just a citizen. and, no one is super human. but you should not need to be super human in this country to tell the truth about a powerful person. i got more ahead. stay with us. stay with us.

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but also american history. do you agree with the way they cashingized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> yeah. >> the way that he is saying your testimony functioned. >> yes. absolutely. >> stormy daniels is the motive. her story is in many instances uncomfortable to hear. she describes it as uncomfortable to recount. but it is now indelibly etched into our american history. it is central to the first criminal conviction of an american president. they are a searing insight into the behavior of an american president. she is an indelible part of american history here because the targeting of her as a result of her testimony, her

confrontation with her. because she is viewed by president trump as one of his enemyings because of this testimony. the story of what has happened to her because she has told the truth in this case. is a harrowing story of the physical menace that the trump movement uses against their perceived enemies. that is one thing when it is directed at people who are in relatively safe positions of power with resources and with structures around them that can protect them from the worst. it is something else when it is a human out there trying to cope alone and the targeting of the people who are hurt by and menaced the most by the trump movement is something we have not figured out how to defend against as a country and it is not going to get better on its own.

joining us now is michael beshlas. michael, it is nice of you to be with us here tonight. >> thank you. this is the first u.s. interview she has done after the trial. we thought the trial was done. maybe it isn't now. but let me just as a historian, what do you think of it? >> she is a brave woman. i don't want to tie her immediately to early american history. but i almost can't help but do it. the founders and the early americans. so we would have a system unlike england. no one could stand up to the king. the whole idea of america was this would be a society where we would benefit from everyone's criticism. so the founders said the

humblest person would stand up to the president of the united states or criticize him. he might not like it but that person would not have their lives destroyed. this is what has happened to stormy daniels and obviously, something has fallen short and it may be worse now given the ruling by the supreme court yesterday that will make the power imbalance between american presidents and our most modest citizens, that power imbalance is now probably tripled in the last two days. >> i have been thinking about that ruling in light of this interview. it seems to me, you studied these things in much more depth than i do. >> we both do. >> well. but i have always felt that sort of genius of the basic idea of the united states and our constitutional republic is

that we recognize the rights of man. and accept up a government to protect our rights from each other and from a ruler from a government that would infringe on our rights. this supreme court ruling is about taking away our protections and our rights to protect ourselves against a ruler who has had his rights expanded so that he can do stuff to us with impunity and we can no longer defend ourselves against it. i think of it in terms of congress and the institutions of our civic life. when i think about it as individual itemized humans, just flesh and blood people-f t just flesh and blood people-f

>> yes. the supreme court is taking us backwards in that respect. you and i have talked a lot about watergate in one good result of the watergate scandal and nixon's departure and reform laws that were passed by congress later on, the ideal was that we would never again have a situation that applied to too many presidents between 1930 and 1974, where they abused the irs, they abused the fbi. they use the power of government to go after columnists that criticize the more people who got underway. they would have bank executives in the hometown of the person who had done this go after the person and take their mortgage away. that is what stormy daniels was reminding me of when she was telling about how much she has gone through. the point is, we should have a judicial system, supreme court

that protects the week, not the strong. instead, in the last 48 hours, the supreme court, through its non-wisdom, in my view, has decided to give even more power to the strongest person in the society, president of the united states, and also other strong people around that person. that is not the way it is supposed to be. it is not progress. >> yes, and it is something we need to compensate for as a country. if the courts are not going to do it then we have to find other ways as a civic entity, to protect the people among us. >> because our government will trample on our liberties and do corrupt things and no one will be able to stand up to them. >> yeah. >> can be seen as presidential historian, michael, thank you for being here tonight. it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thank you.

strike after the supreme court's ruling of the immunity case this week, trump and his counsel did move quickly to try to get his 34 felony convictions in new york thrown out. trump was set to be sentenced for those convictions next week, but today, the judge in the new york case announced that he will delay sentencing until september and i want to show you the letter that judge marchand wrote to attorneys in this case announcing it. he said quote, the matters adjourned to september 18, 2024 for the imposition of sentence quote, if such is still necessary. when he says if such a still necessary, what he means is that if the supreme court decision does not effectively wipe out the jury's unanimous guilty verdict against trump on 34 felony counts. it's an open question. joining us now is catherine christian, former assistant district attorney in the manhattan d.a.s office. thank you so much for being here. i appreciate your time. >> glad to be here.

>> let me first ask you, this interview was stormy daniels tonight, we set this interview in motion when we believe that trumps new york trial in which he testified was over. now, clearly it is not, with his sentencing delay, with the judge entertaining and new motion to throw out the case given what happened at the supreme court. is there anything about this interview about ms. daniels talking publicly about her testimony that could still have any bearing on the trial or the way it resolved? >> no, i don't think so. the proceedings are not over because he has not been to sentencing but the trial is over. her testimony is completed she is a free agent, so there is nothing that she said. she basically tracked the transcript. she added additional detail but nothing that will harm the case. >> s judge merchan doesn't

attain this motion from the defense to set aside the verdict, with the new york district attorney's office then have the option of retrying the case and using a different selection of evidence to try to prove the same criminal charges, but without reference to official acts by trump? >> assuming that judge merchan grants the motion to set aside the verdict, which he should not, because i don't believe these are official acts , but assuming he did, then the case would have to be retried and then the d.a.s office would obviously exclude those tweets, hope hicks' testimony if the judgment is the disciples were official asked. i don't think you will but if you did that

you would have to be retried without that. if you exclude that testimony, there is a mountain of evidence that points to guilt so you would not need that evidence and that would be the argument quite frankly the d.a. is going to make in their response to this motion to set aside the verdict, that there was nothing a judicial if they were deemed official acts, which they are not but if they were deemed official acts, but if you took them out, there is still a mountain of evidence. >> and so, the way that would work, and forgive my ignorance on this, but if some of the evidence was determined or it was argued that some of that evidence was relevant to his official acts as president, you could not extricate that evidence and leave the jury's verdict intact. you would need to be present all of the evidence - those things to a new jury, and get a new verdict. you would have to go through from day one again. >> i don't think so. i think judge mershon, if he were to determine that these were official acts, and i will say again that i don't think they were official acts but if you were to determine that, he can also determine you know

what? there was such a mountain of evidence, even if you took these acts out, the jury was still found guilt. often, cases are reversed through an appeal because presidential evidence was and that was so prejudicial that it denied the defendant the right to a fair trial so the court of appeals in new york reversed harvey weinstein's conviction on that basis but often they will find evidence was prejudicial but harmless, so there's no need to reverse the conviction, which can happen in this case. >> harmless error. we all have to learn the trump era in american politics, we all have to learn to be many lawyers. we all have to learn all the jargon. we have to learn how all these things work. you should not have to learn this much criminal law to follow politics but that is where we are. i really appreciate you being here tonight to help us put these pieces together. thank you. >> you're welcome. >> we will be right back. stay with us. ll be right back. stay with us. and gq's best beard conditioners for soft

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