. good to be back with you for another hour. i'm ali vitali reporting from washington where the question on everyone's mind is where does president joe biden's candidacy stand today. the white house press secretary just said the president is in her words clear eyed about staying in the race, and earlier today, mr. biden called senate majority leader chuck schumer as well as house minority leader hakeem jeffries, speaker emerita, nancy pelosi, south carolina congressman, jim clyburn, and delaware senator chris coons. the president and vice president participated in a call, urging them to have each other's back, this amid reporting from the "new york times" saying biden is weighing whether or not to stay in the race. according to the times, the president told a key ally, quote, he knows he may not be able to salvage his candidacy if he can't convince the public

he's up for the job. that reporting is from a single anonymous source and nbc has not confirmed the reporting. the white house is calling that report absolutely false. tonight, biden will meet with key democratic governors and on friday, after the holiday, he's set to tape his first sit-down interview post debate all as part of a trip to wisconsin. all things the biden campaign is hoping will showcase he's fit for the job and can turn the page. will the drip, drip, drip of reports like that, be enough to shake the campaign's reassurance mission over the next few days. it's coming amid a growing chorus of democrats calling for biden to step down. let's get started with the man who started that chorus. joining us now, texas congressman, lloyd doggett, the first sitting democrat to call for joe biden to withdraw from the race. congressman, i know there are colleagues who agree with you, at least privately that biden's performance was troubling, and he shouldn't be the standard

bearer there, but there are also lots of rumors i'm hearing about letters being circulated among democrats asking him to step down. are you part of any of these pushes trying to get fellow safe seat democrats to sign on to pushing biden out publicly? >> i'm not, but i'm not surprised that those letters are circulating. you're aware that yesterday one colleague, democratic colleague in maine, another in washington state, both said they thought trump would win this election. i'm concerned that he could and that he will bring in a group that will take over our government and we'll never get it back. and it is because of the great danger that trump poses that i want us to have our strongest possible candidate. i think there is great concern out there. i certainly honor the right of the president to try to salvage his campaign. he has earned that through his accomplishments. but it needs salvaging because we've had a year where he's run behind in the polls, run behind our senate candidates and if we

see a continued decline, which i expect we will see some after this debate, that can affect not only him and the takeover by trump, but to eliminate the check that a democratic house and senate could provide. those are the concerns that have motivated me to get involved and say mr. president, please look at what's happened, recognize the reality out there may not be the same thing you're hearing from the circle of your closest friends and family and consider putting our country first and putting aside your personal interest and make that tough decision like lyndon johnson did under different circumstances, and let us get an energetic new candidate. >> is it salvageable from your perspective? what do you do if nothing changes, if the president remains defiant, and says i'm staying in this race, what does someone like you do? >> under those circumstances if he chooses to stay in, i'll do

everything i can and i know my colleagues will to try to get him elected. i just think it will be a heavy load to carry, and that some really good people could be lost in the process. >> when you first made this call, you cited trailing poll numbers and the inability to carry the party's message, and really do that contrast with trump on the debate stage. those to me seem like political considerations. do you have concerns about the personal side of this, the president's health, his physical and mental ability, both as a candidate and as the sitting president of the united states? >> well, i think that anyone who watched that debate and the way he answered or did not answer the questions would have some concern based on that. i think that much more than the records from a kwgs, i would like to see him display with his conduct, rather than the isolation his campaign has kept him in up to now to see him engage with journalists like you, answer the tough questions,

have town halls, not just scripted robo kind of responses. and demonstrate that he has the capacity to move forward. if he does, he'll certainly have my support. >> congressman, i'll take an interview with the president any day, of course if the white house is listening. am i right to hear you say that you would be interested in hearing from the white house doctors on this, did i hear you correctly? >> what i'm saying is a better indication than that is to see him actually out performing. we can read or interpret however we might whatever the house physician might say, but i think we want to see him demonstrate his capability that he did not demonstrate in the debate, and it will take more than one interview to do that, and one appearance. it's more than him going and speak to go a stage campaign rally with a teleprompter. it's a matter of engaging and taking the tough questions that

so many people around america have. he doesn't have to convince me. i'm convinced that joe biden has been a successful president. but there are a significant number of americans that didn't believe it, that sided with a convicted criminal over president biden, and we are lagging. we are going to lag more, and it will take a tremendous effort to overcome that. >> just based on the conversations that you have had with your colleagues, do you think there will be more people today, tomorrow, before congress comes back next week who say that president biden should not be the party's nominee? >> i think it's very difficult for some members to come out and say it publicly. i believe some are saying it to white house people, and i think that's really important, and i would encourage them to do that just as i would encourage people across the country to talk to their senators and their congress members while they're back in their districts and express their feelings about the debate, and how they think we should proceed, but i think there will be only a small

number of people who might speak out publicly about this during the immediate future. >> you said why take the chance now when there's a better alternative. who's the better alternative. can't replace someone with no one. >> i think i would apply it to plural, alternatives. >> there's no time for that. >> pardon? i think we have talented governors, i think we have talented senators, certainly the vice president would want to be in the mix. the time is short, but there's no reason we can't have a true, clue, open democratic process not making the decisions behind closed doors with a smoke-filled room where ultimately the convention decides who our nominee is, after presentations by people in advance of the convention about their program and why they appear to be the best person to take on president trump. you know, we've had a year in which people have said, we don't want either one, too significant number of people, despite the

horrible record of donald trump, we need, i believe, a better choice to energize and get more people involved who have been unwilling to participate up until now. >> congressman lloyd doggett, thank you for coming on and sharing your perspective. i'll see you on capitol hill next week. joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles and staff writer at "the atlantic," and the author of "thank you for your servitude," mark leibovich. what we are hearing from congressman doggett, is that what you're hearing from democrats on the hill? there's a lot of private hemming and hawing, but no one is signing their name on the dotted line like he did. >> a lot of that is based on what congressman doggett said to you, there's a concern if too many democrats come out quickly, that might force joe biden into a corner he feels he needs to come out of as opposed to coming to the decision on his own.

what you're seeing democrats on the -- doing behind the scenes, putting the private pressure on the president himself to come to this decision on his own, and if they get the sense he's not willing to take the step, they're going to have to take a step back and rally behind hm, which is essentially what congressman doggett said he's doing. it's a family conversation. i keep hearing that over and over again, we're having a family conversation. how long they can have the family conversation for is an open question, and it feels as though time is running out. >> i wouldn't want to be at democratic thanksgiving. i wonder if you think the biden campaign should be taking comments like congressman doggett's more seriously or if he heard he gave them a heads up this was coming and they didn't do much to stop it. >> there's nothing they can do to stop it. i think they are privately taking stock of all of this. i think congressman dog et was, you know, obviously he's a tip of an iceberg that has not broken or melted, whatever the

right metaphor is there. i think there's a combination of stuff. i think some of the new polls are rough for biden. conversations privately that we're not privy to that are putting some pressure on him. but, i mean, in the last cup of days, people i've talked to seem to have increasing hostility to the notion of a status quo, circling the wagons, everyone calm down approach, which has basically been what team biden has been doing for the last two years. i mean, i don't think that's working. and i think it's absolutely, you know, it's just misguided, especially after last thursday, so, yeah, interesting times, i think, look, they have kind of dolled away a couple of days. something should happen quickly. >> i think when we're talking about the pace of this, what's shocking to me is how slow the outreach is. it's been a week. you talked to hakeem jeffries, talked to more hill leaders today, do we know anything about those conversations other than they happened? >> not really.

what we know is how remarkable this turn about has been for the biden white house and campaign. we were talking to democratic members over the last 48 hours. we're not hearing anything. we have no idea what is going on. now you see one by one, the white house ticking this off. you know, they talked to chuck schumer, they talked to jim clyburn, chris coons, they have talked to hakeem jeffries who you pointed out, and what we're not getting, though, is a sense of what those conversations are like. are they trying to tell the democratic leaders, stick by us, give us an opportunity to see this through. we're trying to come up with a plan for the next stage, all of those things seem to be an open question. the sense i have gotten from the people i have been talking to is that they are willing to give the president through the weekend. they want to see how he performs in this interview with abc on friday. they want to see how he is out on the campaign trail. he's going to do independence day events and things along those lines, and if he gets through that, that may buy him some time. it's going to be a lot more

difficult for these democratic lawmakers who are telling the concerns they have behind the scenes. when they get back here on monday and tuesday it's going to be a different conversation then. the president has to do a lot. >> i'm bringing my running shoes for monday. that's going to be the key question. the other question we have is what's happening at "the new york times," this report claiming biden is weighing whether or not he should stay in this race. once again, i want to point out nbc news hasn't confirmed this reporting. mark, that's substantial if it's true. >> i have no doubt it's true. and katie rogers is rock solid. it rings true for everyone i have been talking to. i would this, i mean, yes, the white house seems to be focusing a lot on kind of ticking off the bingo cards about, you know, the president spoke to this leader and that leader, and this congressperson and that, you

know, senator and so forth. you know, who he hasn't really spoken to for a week now as the american people. it has yes, there have been a few set piece events. there was that rally. there was a, you know, that speech the other night. he has been basically invisible. it has not been, you know, he's been clustered as he had been before, and it definitely perpetuates the notion that, okay, well, will he perform on friday? i think the idea that people are waiting for proof of making up their minds is being lost by the day, and obviously the spiral started last thursday. >> all amazing points from ryan nobles and mark leibovich who will continue tracking this with the same doggedness we have been tracking it the last week. thanks for your time. the biden campaign's scathing response of trump's interpretation of the immunity decision as the white house waives new steps to safeguard democracy. a massive hurricane barrels

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nexium 24hr prevents heartburn acid before it begins. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. we're getting brand new polling numbers from the "new york times" showing exactly how last week's debate and subsequent fallout are impacting the presidential race. joining us now from the inflames big board is nbc news national political correspondent steve kornacki. steve, what's in this poll? >> there's a lot in it, and there's a lot of other numbers, ali, that have been coming out, including one in the last couple

of minutes, which we'll get to here. let's start on the "new york times" poll. what you're seeing here, this is the poll of registered voters nationally. they have donald trump, actually, i'll explain this in a second, with a 49-41 advantage over joe biden. now, that looks like eight points. it's saying if you actually included decimal points on these and rounded up, it would actually be a nine-point lead for donald trump. they're calling it a nine-point advantage. whatever it is, you can see it's pretty substantial. now, the times had taken a survey just before this debate as well. and among register voters, the same group of voters then, trump's lead had been six points, again, that was just prior to the debate. it went from six points before the debate among registered voters to what you're seeing right here. now, the times also has a likely voter model. registered voters, anybody is registered to vote. likely voters, you're trying to see who's more inclined to vote in november. they've got one of those as

well. and among likely voters, they have this race at 49-43. so they have it at a 6 point margin among likely voters, and again, that is up from the last time they surveyed among likely voters. at that point, the margin was three points for trump. likely and registered, the times has it ticking up the margin for trump by a couple of points. that's new today. new this afternoon. there's also, what you see here, these are all the polls that have been conflicted entirely after the debate. now, these are the results you're seeing from the poll. seven on the list, trump ahead in all, tied in one. and the question becomes, what were those polls showing before the debate. some of these pollsters hadn't polled in months. in terms of getting a full debate effect, it's not clear in all cases. i'll give you a sense of what you see, for instance, cbs, pretty recently had a poll with trump up one.

they have him up two after the debate. yahoo at the start of this month had biden up two, post debate, trump up two. you can see the cnn number, this goes back to april. they had it at six then. six now. you can see there's actually one here from ipsos and reuters. mid june, they had trump up two. that one going to a tie. that's the one from biden that moved in that direction. so you're seeing a general trend there in the times in these of a movement of about, you know, two points or so give or take in trump's direction in terms of the margin on this. and then i say there's one just in the last couple of minutes, the "wall street journal" has just released its poll. this is a poll of registered voters, 1,500 registered voters with a margin of error, plus or minus 2 1/2 points, and the "wall street journal" poll out a couple of minutes ago shows trump leading by six points. i hope you can read my writing there. they have trump ahead by six. just in the last few minutes.

when's the last time before this that the "wall street journal" conducted a poll. it was back in february. take that for what it's worth, but back in february, they had trump leading the race. they had trump leading biden by two points. so they have a margin there for trump of six. that makes eight polls here now, count the times in, that's nine polls conducted entirely since the debate. and in eight of them, donald trump has a ahead here. -- a lead here. one of them, the race is tied. trump had been ahead by two several weeks ago. that is sort of the big picture trend, whatever you want to call it, in terms of the polling here. again, you see a lot of red on the side of the screen. it's not a ton of movement. it's a consistent 2, 3 point movement depending on the poll here, ali. >> those are the trends and those are the numbers that democratic lawmakers are going to be looking at.

steve kornacki, thank you for bringing us the latest. >> got it. will the democrats dam break? that's the question today as we watch to see if the calls end up growing louder among rattled democrats worried about president biden's 2024 presidential prospects? we'll have to see if it's addressed in a few hours when house democratic leadership convenes a call that we mentioned earlier. joining us in the meantime is former republican congressman of pennsylvania, charlie dent, and former democratic congresswoman of maryland, donna edwards. donna, have you heard from former colleagues who are ready to say biden should step aside? >> i haven't, in fact, quite the opposite. i have heard from people who are obviously concerned about the debate performance but also want to give time for more data to come in but also to give president biden the latitude that he has earned to help to figure this out or to do some corrective action, and so i

think that the couple of members who have come out and expressed their concerns are somewhat outliers with most people that i have talked to, wanting to see kind of what happens over the next several days in order to figure this out? >> charlie, this is the quietest i think that some of my republican sources on the hill have been in a little while. what are you hearing from them, and what's their best case snare -- scenario here? >> from the republican perspective, they are taking great delight in the misery of the democrats. i think the democrats have soul searching to do. 50 million people watched the debate. many more have been watching the analysis and the worst moments of that debate, and i think there are a lot of people out there questioning the president's ability to serve for the next four years. that's what this is about. it's a major liability and the american people need to be persuaded. just as important for the democrats is, you know, they

have to think about their down ballot candidates, particularly those in the competitive battleground districts and states. how is this going to affect their races? they can have all the conversations they want. i would take the temperature of those folks. they don't seem to be doing that. at least not publicly. there seems to be a lack of transparency here. we knew before this debate that close to 2/3 of voters didn't like the choice. one was too old, joe biden, the other dangerous, donald trump. the problem is worse for the democrats. donald trump has a very low ceiling, he's not able to capitalize on this real problem for the democrats, to the extent that any normal candidate might just because of his own high negatives. >> do you hear that concern from front liners, people in tough swing districts that this could have a negative effect on him? >> obviously everybody is looking at what's going to happen from the top of the ticket to the bottom. we have always known this is going to be a really close election, and obviously how the

president performs really does have an impact. if you look at some of the senate races that are competitive, those senate races seem to be going this the right direction for democrats, there are a handful -- a couple of hands full of house races that are at stake in this election. as i said, i think most of the people i'm hearing from are saying let's take a breath on this, let's take data in, and let's figure out what the pathway is forward. and frankly, i think, with the president, it's going to be important for him to put himself out there. i'm glad the white house and the president are making those phone calls on capitol hill, not just to take the temperature, but also to get some guidance about them, about the path forward. >> donna, i think the point that i made to congressman doggett, you can't replace someone with no one. nbc news is reporting that there could be a potential void atop the democratic ticket if biden does step down.

our reporting says in part, some democratic leaders would line up behind kamala harris, others might champion an official who would be a pioneer in their own right and represents a battleground state, like governor gretchen whitmer. could there be fallout if the choice isn't vice president harris? >> let me say this, first of all, i think this is a very premature conversation at this particular stage, but i share the view that i think representative clyburn expressed on the air yesterday and that is vice president harris is the vice president of the united states. people have already taken it into consideration that she could potentially be president. they voted for the biden/harris ticket, and any leapfrogging over kamala harris would result in the democrats endures the wrath of the base of the democratic party, particularly among black women as a solid

base of this party, and so i think people need to tread very very carefully when they talk about what comes next. none of the numbers that i have seen yet show that any of these other names that are out there, could come close to defeating donald trump, so this is a premature conversation. >> i agree with you, especially as the white house is continuing to double down, saying he's absolutely not dropping out of the race. former congressman charlie dent and donna edwards, thanks for your perspective. coming up, the death toll is mounting as a powerful category for hurricane charges into jamaica for its eye on the southern border. the latest on the eryl's attack and the destruction it's caused. . t help you find and unlock opportunities in the market.

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donald trump is claiming the supreme court's ruling on presidential immunity amounts to a total exoneration, and ends all of the legal cases he currently faces. that kind of overly broad interpretation of the court's ruling is being disputed by a variety of legal analysts. for its part, the biden campaign is warning if the court were to take trump's view of the decision, it would have frightening consequences for the country. the biden campaign saying in part, trump is making it crystal clear that the supreme court has empowered him to be a dictator on day one and terminate our constitution, allowing him to

punish those who stand against him, condone and encourage violence done on his behalf and put his own revenge and retribution ahead of america. joining us now, barbara mcquade and glenn kirschner, both msnbc legal analysts. the chief justice john roberts accused the dissenters on the court in his words, fear mongering on the basis of extreme hypotheticals when they made arguments similar to those made by the biden campaign. how do you see it? are those dissenters being alarmists here? >> well, you'll note that although chief justice roberts says these are extreme hypotheticals, and those hypotheticals are that a president could order the assassination of a rival, organize a coup, or accept a bribe in exchange for a pardon, even though he says those are extreme hypotheticals, he doesn't refute that they're true. they are true. of course, it doesn't mean that there's no accountability but if

a president cannot be charged with a crime, the only accountability left is impeachment and removal from office. now, you could imagine a president engaging in this activity at the very end of his administration when an impeachment would be meaningless, and a promise to pardon his underlings, and so in that way, i think that a president who is unscrupulous could utilize the presidency as a weapon just as the dissenters described. >> glenn, stick with me on the hypotheticals here because in a new story, "politico" explores the seal team 6 hypothetical that's raised by justice sonia sotomayor, in which the president could order the military to assassinate a political rival. a constitutional law professor argues that the court's ruling had their words doesn't leave presidential power completely unchecked. lawless presidential conduct can be prevented or unravelled by other parts of the constitution, for instance, if a president illegal imprisoned a political

enemy, that person would be entitled to a court order to go free. how do you see it here? would a president be totally unchecked? >> largely unchecked. this is a blueprint for totalitarianism. let me offer a hypothetical that's not extreme. it's a heartland hypothetical given what supreme court opinion announced. it bestowed upon the president the power of lawlessness. they talk about core presidential powers and use a couple of examples. they say the pardon power, if it's a core power, they say the president can do anything he wants with respect to exercising that power, and he can not be touched. he can set up a kiosk pardon in the lobby of the white house and sell pardons for a million dollars a pop, a billion dollars a pop, and he can not be investigated. you can't look at his motive for selling pardons. he gets a pass for that. another core power, coordinating and communicating with your

attorney general in order to, you know, further your law enforcement function of course, and we at some point will have to take up whether he gets to fight crime or commit crime, but when he's exercising those core constitutional functions, but all he has to do is tell his attorney general, please go ahead and round up and detain all of my enemies, my political opponents with no cause, no charges, and no due process, and so the president has absolute immunity for that. we go back to the first scenario, and he pardons his attorney general, and bingo, you have lawless government, and this is really slouching toward totalitarianism if something is not done about it. >> barbara, it strikes me in the example glenn is giving, when you talk about potential conversations between the department of justice and the sitting president, i mean, that's kind of central to the entire idea of prosecuting the former president for what happened on january 6th, and the attempts that were made to

obstruct the election results. what do you see here as the implication on that case? >> i think that already off the table in the january 6th case, i think that we are not going to see the allegations about donald trump's efforts to weaponize the department of justice to help shore up his claims of fraud. i think the court has made that clear that that's official conduct that is absolutely immune. i think even the conversations between president trump and vice president pence about not certifying the election are in that sort of gray area that presumptively immune. i think it's going to be a tall order. i think there are official acts in the indictment that might be still subject to prosecution, things like organizing false slates of electors, and pressuring state officials to overturn the outcome of the election, and utilizing the chaos of january 6th to continue to try to pressure legislators

to delay the certification of the election. those all likely occur in president trump's capacity as a candidate and not as president, however, because as glenn has talked about, you can't look into a president's motive, and you can't even use official acts as evidence of unofficial acts, it will be a tall order for jack smith to surmount what the supreme court has now put in his way. >> jack smith, of course, is not the only person prosecuting or trying to, the former president of the remaining cases that trump faces, you've got of course the d.c. election interference case that we were talking about, also you've got the case in fulton county, georgia, the mar-a-lago documents case. glenn, which of those are most affected by this ruling or is there anything in this ruling that could allow those to go forward? i mean, it's all been delay, delay, delay. >> yeah, i think they are all potentially affected, and we're seeing that now in the new york state court prosecution, which is a conviction in which he's pending sentencing. there was a motion filed to litigate whether any of the

statements, any of the evidence that was introduced in that new york case is now sort of retroactively prohibited based on this new supreme court opinion. i think that those were almost exclusively private, nonofficial acts, so that case should ultimately proceed to sentencing. i think there will be a more direct impact on his other pending prosecutions both in georgia and in florida, so we can expect the litigation to explode in those other cases as a result of this new supreme court opinion, which really doesn't put out a lot of guidance about how these issues are to be resolved by the trial court, so this is going to be judges wading into uncharted waters and trying to figure out how to best go about complying with this new supreme court, you know, rule of lawlessness for presidents. >> barbara mcquade, glenn kirschner, thank you, we have to leave it there. the this afternoon, hurricane beryl is striking south of

jamaica's south coast, where residents are hunkering down for the 140 miles per hour winds and life threatening tide surges. the category 4 hurricane has made history as the strongest july hurricane on record. seven people have died on islands across the caribbean, destroying homes and devastating farms. it's expected to weaken as it moves toward the gulf of mexico in the next few days. joining us now, sam brock. you're in kingston, jamaica, what are you seeing and hearing from folks on the ground there? >> reporter: it's interesting, beryl has moved west from where we are, and for the first time really since we have been out here all day, we're starting to feel the intense wind gusts pick ing up at 65 or 70 miles per hour. you are seeing the trees bend with the wind coming in. for the longest time, there was deep concern about what you just outlined. 140 miles per hour winds being sustained by the hurricane.

kingston, 60, 70 miles south, just far enough to not be slammed. it was enough to knock out power, that's a deep concern in the community, is losing electricity, especially when there are vulnerable populations out here. i caught up with a couple of women doing last minute shopping for supplies this morning, and they explained why. take a listen. >> how much stuff have you bought to make sure you're okay? >> a week of stuff, just in case. >> you bought a week's worth of stuff? >> yeah. >> what is the biggest concern going into the storm. >> the lights and water. not everybody can afford generators. not everybody can afford solar so for the ones that live in the inner city like us, we have to give thanks and lights won't go our way. >> reporter: as you can see, we're getting hit right now. earlier today the governor said or the prime minister said you might have to protectively shut down electricity and water. we're not aware of that going on right now. again, we are losing more power

literally as we speak ali. >> you and your team stay safe. thanks for joining us. up next, the medical and emotional realities of a post roe america, including a rise in infant deaths and pregnancy complications. how inequality is tipping the scales to years after the supreme court's decision. ars af supreme court's decision it works for them. - i don't have any anxiety about money anymore. - i don't have to worry about a mortgage payment every month. - it allowed me to live in my home... and not have to pay payments. - [narrator] if you're 62 or older and own your home, you could access your equity to improve your lifestyle. a reverse mortgage loan eliminates your monthly mortgage payments and puts tax-free cash in your pocket. call the number on your screen. - it was the best thing i've ever done, and- - really? - yes, without a doubt! - just like these folks, aag can show you how a reverse mortgage loan uses your built-up home equity

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a push to get abortion protections on the ballot in

arizona this november is moving forward. the group called arizona for abortion access announced they were able to collect a record-breaking 823,000 petition signatures. >> this is the most signatures ever submitted by a citizens initiative. to put that into context, that means 1 out of every 5 arizona voters signed this petition. we have signatures from every single county in the state. to tell you more about what these last two years have been like living under one extreme abortion ban after another. >> two years after the supreme court overturned roe v. wade, it's still too early to know the full extent of just how drastically that landmark shift impacted women's ability to get an abortion. why is that? because of the mishmash of state laws across the nation that keep

changing. and abortion opponents keep looking for new ways to further curtail that access. joining us now, two experts on the issue, the author of "undo burden", and political health care reporter, alice miranda ollstein. what can you tell us over the fight over abortion in arizona specifically but then broadening that out to the eleven other states that have this as a ballot measure on their ballots come november? >> right. so we don't know exactly every state where it's going to be on the ballot in november. other states are currently submitting signatures, you know, the deadlines are still coming up. there might be legal challenges. there might be challenges to saying these signatures aren't valid but what's fascinating about arizona is that the state currently has a 15-week ban, which anti-abortion leaders a lot of them say is this compromise that everyone supports. so this will be a key contest to say is that true or do people

view it as a ban is a ban is a ban, and, you know, we prefer that the government sort of stay out of this all together which is, you know, there's a lot of libertarian sort of sentiment in arizona, a lot of independent voters who feel that way, and so i think that will really give us a look at where else this could be a successful strategy going forward. >> yeah, especially as it's become a central issue in the senate contest there. it's not just abortion as a singular question. it bleeds into other things there. shefali, i think zooming out a little bit, the picture of the last two years what it means to be post-roe, you wrote a book an this issue, what does it look like? >> what's so striking is the sheer uncertainty and fear that people seeking abortions experience. they have seen laws change back and forth. they're like so many of us, they don't keep track of what is legal in their state one day versus the next. i have spoken to so many people who find out they're pregnant and either they discover

complications or know they can't be pregnant. some are ordering pills and getting them mailed to them in their states with bans. some are traveling extreme lengths, going one state, maybe two, falling behind on their rent, taking money of their savings, draining their bank accounts to pay for that. at the same time, they wonder is someone going to find out, judge me or find some way to bring law enforcement after me, even though no abortion ban criminalizes pregnant patients and what is so immensely important for us to understand is that this is something that's changing people's lives. people are having children they did not intend to, often very young because they don't have other options. >> shefali brings up the abortion bill. the supreme court ruling was a blow for the anti-abortion activists. they are taking steps to mitigate it or make it harder to access that care.

>> they were stressing to me they were not putting all of their eggs in one basket. this was one of many strategies they have to try to curtail access to the pills. hoping for federal legislation, state legislation, hoping to keep this particular legal challenge alive because it was only kicked back to lower courts. it wasn't completely ended. >> properly dispensed with. >> exactly. the supreme court punted which keeps this issue alive, and other legal challenges could be coming too. the supreme court's other rulings recently, a pair of rulings that opened the door to a lot more challenges to federal agency regulations and rules including the original authorization of the abortion pill, more than two decades ago could now be in the cross hairs. >> that's certainly a conversation i have a lot on capitol hill. as we weigh the policy and politics on this, is there

anything democrats can do or put it to the voters and see what they can land on? >> democrats have been trying to find a solution. it comes down to the 1800s, law, the comstock act, they are struggling in large part because they don't have the votes to get anything done. it's going to get harder as the campaign for the white house and congress continues. >> doing anything in an on year, is hard. certainly on this issue, we have seen them continue to try and fail. thank you both for joining us. straight ahead, racing towards a recount. a key house primary decided by less than 400 votes, and the freedom caucus leader trying to prevent that becoming the first republican to lose a primary challenge this cycle. we'll be right back. meat. so we made meat out of plants. because we aren't quitters. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat.

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ohhh crap. now we gotta get france something. wait! we could use etsy's gift mode! alright. done. (♪♪) plateau de fromage! [cheering] oh la la! [cheering] don't panic. gift easy with gift mode, now on etsy. a contentious republican primary battle has now been certified but the fight for a virginia house seat is far from over. congressman and chair of the freedom caucus bob good says he plans to pursue a recount in the race for virginia's fifth district, after losing to state senator john mcguire by less than 1 percentage point. this is a race where both donald trump and kevin mccarthy put their support behind congressman good's opponent. nbc news national political reporter, bridge et bowman is with us to talk what's next here. you and i have been doing this reporting together over the entire course of mccarthy's so

called revenge tour. i'll put on the screen for you what one of the operatives said in the after math of the certification, can buck resign, matt rosendale retired. nancy mace is facing scandal but the ethics committee hasn't come out with anything, matt gaetz, and bob good in the corner, defeated. what is he going to do at this point? >> the results were certified. that starts a ten-day clock to formally request a recount. the campaign hasn't gotten back to me on that question. he has signalled he plans to do that. the key here is he has to pay for it, because of the margin. it could cost thousands and thousands of dollars. his campaign said in a statement to nbc news, they have been raising thousands of dollars for a recount, essentially signaling they are ready to pay for it. it's going to be extremely unlikely for the result to be overturned here, even though the

margin is super close. the result certified yesterday showed mcguire winning by 375 volts. even with the small margin, it seems unlikely. >> this race was interesting for a lot of reasons. we actually obviously traveled there, you and i, car pooling down the interstate, but the thing that was striking to me about it is that it's election denier versus election denier. bob good on january 6th, 2021, did not vote to certified results of the election, and state senator john mcguire, the congressman elect went to a stop the steal rally and was at the capitol on january 6th. is this what we're going to get now, if the results don't go their way, they're going to deny them? >> this race was unique. it was so close. we have seen a number of incumbents, folks who voted against certifying the last election be challenged in primaries, but those are a wider margin. it's tougher to make the case. the fact that it was so close is

a key factor here. it's a good point. they can cast doubt, say we have heard about issues in this precinct or that precinct. we'll have to see how he navigates it post recount if he still looks like he's losing is he going to accept that or not? >> post recount. also he was alleging abnormalities that we were never able to substantiate, and we tried. >> that's right. casting doubt on the results as well. the state board of election chairman said at the meeting, this was a free and fair election, trying to undercut the conversation that was out there. we'll have to see how it moves forward for sure. >> as you talk to republican operatives in a race like this, they sort of see their chickens come home to electorally roost in a sense. >> in a sense, i think that's fair. and you know, this was another example, too, that it's just really really hard to beat an incumbent, you know, like you said, he could be the first republican to lose in this election cycle, and he had a unique coalition against him. he had everybody from marjorie taylor greene, and defending

main street, so it was a very yolk situation, but an interesting point. >> as i talk to folks on the hail, there's a lot of animosity against bob good as a colleague? >> yeah, we saw some of his colleagues endorsing against him. we have seen that in other primaries. seems like a toxic situation for republicans up there. >> toxic is definitely one way to describe it. my sources have been animated about this race from the moment that i said a few weeks ago that we were going to cover it, i think the fact that we were able to do it and get on the ground and ask these candidates questions is critically important. thanks for being a partner and coming on and talking to us about it. keep us posted. that's it for me today. thank you for being with us over the past two hours, a very busy time. you can follow me on social media using @ali vitali and enjoy your independence day holiday. "dea