i have a feeling they would be shocked to discover us still using that old document. >> that's an interesting question that we'll never know the answer to. it's a really good one. yeah, they weren't mistakes. they did them on purpose, but if they were looking at them now, would they think it worked out perfectly or it be up for change? we don't know. >> they were not trying to give us the democracy that we would like to have. >> absolutely not. they department miss and happen to fail -- >> this is the one night i would like to do overtime but i can't do it. it's called "the hamilton scheme." this is the perfect july 4th gift. grab it right now. it's perfect anytime. this is truly a great book. bill hogeland, thank you very much for joining us. that is "the last word." bill hogeland gets the last word on "the hamilton scheme." good morning and welcome to this special holiday edition of "morning joe." this morning we have some of our recent top conversations and big

interviews, and we begin with my exclusive sitdown with vice president kamala harris and abortion rights advocate and survivor hadley duvall. we spoke on the two-year anniversary of the supreme court overturning roe v. wade. this is your first national media interview, and given what's at stake today, can you tell people what you want them to take away from, to know about your personal and deeply painful story, and why it's so relevant to women today? >> women today, if they're walking in the shoes that i was in, which was pregnancy from rape, then, you know, they don't have any option in a lot of states, and they're at risk for having no options after the election. and that's very terrifying. and still forever i will be that

little girl and that's who i do this for. knowing i was in that position, and the only thing that allowed me to hold on to hope were the words, you have options. those are the first things i heard after i looked at a positive pregnancy test at 12 years old. >> abused by your stepfather, correct? >> yes. >> it took a while to tell your mom about this. this was -- your abuser was her husband. i'm curious how you did it, and i'm thinking this question is for young girms out there who may be in a similar situation. >> when i was younger, it took, you know, a lot of planning. i would sit and i would say, okay, the next time i will tell. or, you know, if this happens, i will tell. or -- i would always have a reason and wait for that push, and then it would come around and i would get scared. my mom is a recovering addict.

so she, when i was young, she went away to in-patient rehab, and i knew what that looks like. i was finally in a point of my life that i had prayed for. my mom was not using drugs anymore. she was home. she was sober. and when i threatened to tell, i was told, well, you know, you'll risk your mom's sobriety. so that really stuck with me. it always made me just want to keep the peace. it was my family, the family i had been hoping for and praying for for so long. but then i was realizing that i didn't have peace, and that seemed to be the most important. so, honestly, just going into high school and knowing that there were a lot of milestones that not only knee but my sibling was about to accomplish, and i just didn't feel like we had to live in a secret anymore. so i honestly texted my mom from

school, and i said, don't let me back out of what i need to tell you tonight. she started asking me some questions and actually came and picked me up from school. and i told her. i couldn't even look at her. i said, mom, i don't know how to say this to you. i'm just going to blurt it out. i've been being sexually abused for ten years. and immediately she was like, okay, we have to figure something out. you're going to go stay with a friend. financials. my mom was in cosmotologist school at the time and had no income. >> and now you're speaking out because a trump win would mean what for little girls in the situation you were in? >> it would mean the unimaginable. it would mean they have no options. not even women and girls, but women with nonviable pregnancies, wanted pregnancies, that are nonviable, killing these women. there would be no traveling to another state.

no options based on where you live. it's one rule for everybody and that will be no abortions, and that is a very, very dangerous world for women, not only young girls, but all women. >> madam vice president, you're here with hadley, in part, because she's amazing and also her story resonates with you deeply. you have been close to similar stories in your own life, maybe even set the path of your career, prosecuting sexual violence cases. can you tell us about that? >> mika, when i was in high school, i learned that my best friend was being molested by her stepfather. and when i learned about it, i said to her, you have to come live with us. i called my mother. my mother said, of course she has to come stay with us. and she did. and soap at a young age, i decided i wanted to do the work

that was about protecting women and children. and i became a prosecutor and i specialized in particular child sexual assault. and the fact that after the dobbs decision came down that laws had been proposed and passed, that as hadley has said, makes no exceptions even for rape or incest, think about what these extremists are saying to a survivor of a crime of violence to their body, a survivor of a crime that is a violation of their body. and to say to that survivor, and you have no right or authority to make a decision about what happens to your body next, that's immoral. that's immoral. and i, again, i say all of that to say that, hadley, you are -- you are doing such important

work to be a voice, because i'll also mention that the majority of these cases don't get reported. and then in some states they've passed a law that says, well, if a woman or a girl reports it to the police, then they might be eligible for an abortion. well, a lot of survivors don't report it to the police because of fear of retribution they feel will be even worse than what they are enduring. >> hadley miscarried. if she had needed care for that today, depending on where you live, you may not get it. it's been two years now since roe was overturned. and now we're dealing with the raw reality of that which is women bleeding out in parking lots, on bathroom floors. i'm curious what your thoughts were when roe was overturned. >> first of all, i say, let's

really be clear about how we got here. because the former president hand selected three members of the united states supreme court with the intention that they would undo the protections of roe v. wade, and they did exactly as he intended, and in state after state we are seeing what i call trump abortion bans, including states that a six-week abortion ban, which tells you these legislators clearly don't know how a woman's body works, or they don't care. most women don't even know they're pregnant in six weeks. and to your point, mika, there are two co-existing issues here that are extremely important. one is the notion that the highest court in our land just took a fundamental right that had been recognized from the people of america to make decisions about their own body. the notion of it all that in

this year of our lord, 2024, the highest court in the united states of america will take such a fundamental freedom from its people, and understanding this is not just a matter that is for debate and discussion and intellectual conversation. the real harm that has occurred every day in america since that case was decided and these laws are being passed, to your point, we know the stories about women seeking care because they're going through a miscarriage and being turned away by an emergency room because the physicians there are afraid they're going to be put in jail. they put prison for life for a health care provider doing their job. and i don't think -- i think when you look at this issue, most people agree, you don't have to abandon your faith. you don't have to abandon your faith or deeply held beliefs to agree the government should not

be telling women what to do with their bodies. if they choose, they will consult with their priest, their pastor, their rabbi, their imam but not the government. >> what's at stake in this election? >> so much. if you have a woman in your life that means something to you, her life is at stake. it does not matter if she is 12, 9, 34. it really does not matter. if there is a woman who is in that reproductive age, then, you know, her life is at stake during this election. and it does not matter if you've never voted democrat in your life. get off your high horse, because women, we don't get to choose a whole lot. and you can choose who you vote for. there's a lot of things that need to be worked on. we can't get it all done, but, at the very least, we could get

out of women's business when it involves their health care. and i've always said, i'm pro minding your own business. live tour religion. you know, live it. live it loudly, but don't expect your religion to make the laws. your religion should be lived through and through whether that's the law or not, however you came up, however you want to live your religion, it shouldn't be forced on anybody else. it shouldn't -- your religion shouldn't determine everybody's outcome because i don't believe that my god that i worship and that i've learned about all my life would have ever wished something like that upon me. and coming up, we'll be joined by two "new york times" reporters behind a new investigation into the years long political and religious campaign to end the federal protection of abortion rights. that's next on "morning joe." mo.

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nearly two years after the supreme court overturned roe versus wade, a years long strategy that finally led to the jobs decision. the book is titled "the fall of roe: the rise of a new america" and how the most fervent activists persuade the court to end nearly 50 years of precedent. the co-authors, national religion correspondent for "the new york times" elizabeth dias and lisa lerer. good morning to you both.

congratulations. today is pub day. >> today is pub day. >> congratulations. your baby is out into the world. here we go. >> it is. it's here! >> deeply, deeply reported, like 350 interviews, you really get into the history of this issue. so it's a lot to get through, but i'll start at the end win is how the dam ultimately broke after this half century effort to overturn roe versus wade. donald trump getting in the white house, obviously, put the three justices on the supreme court. but, at the end, what happened that pushed it over the finish line? >> our book is really the first narrative of how roe fell and what we saw in this period is this tightly connected web of conservative anti-abortion activists were able to move the levers of power in their favor in ways big and really small working at state houses to start pushing through legislation. and then, as you point out, donald trump gets elected.

they jump on that train. it becomes a bullet train for them, and they get lucky, the three seats on the supreme court. and they're dealing with an abortion rights movement that's really ill-equipped and unprepared to take on this threat and a country that has this pervasive sense of denial that this right that's been participate of america life for two generations could suddenly disappear. >> so, elizabeth, donald trump, obviously evangelicals were skeptical of him in 2015, even in 2016. he talked about being pro choice many times in public previous to that and ultimately realized they would perhaps shape him because he so desperately wants to be elected, that they can dictate what they want from him. >> they did. one of the interesting things we found, it wasn't just evangelicals. catholics played an important role in the anti-abortion movement's growth, origins. evangelicals were actually late coming to that in history. and the leaders of the

anti-abortion movement actually really were rooted in their conservative christian values, values about family, womanhood and, of course, abortion. and what our story shows is it was those values that really were behind the movement. certainly as lisa was saying, there's all these levers of power they pulled. at its core, this is all happening in a period when america is becoming increasingly secular. there's so much cultural change especially when it comes to marriage, family and sex. and these are the things the anti-abortion movement ultimately is hoping to change. it's not just about overturning roe. it's about a much bigger half century plan to really roll back the sexual revolution. >> joe, you've watched this so closely from the point of view of faith but also through politics over the course of your life and career culminating once donald trump is in the white house with 50 years of precedent overturned. >> right.

right. 50 years of precedent overturned. elizabeth, you are right, catholics -- catholics have been pro-life for quite some time. as i always joke on the show, evangelicals, my church, southern baptists, were pro-choice from the time of jesus' birth until the eagles broke up. and when you say a new america, i think it's interesting. it was a new republican party, and the redefinition by political activists in 1979-1980, what it meant to be an evangelical, what it meant to be a christian, and you had people like paul wyrick and jerry falwell deciding whole cloth this is how we beat a southern baptist democrat. i'm curious, how did their

political machinations in 1979 and 1980 not only change american politics but based on your reporting, how did it change how evangelicals looked at their own faith in bringing in this political controversy that many now put at the center of their faith? >> well, look, you can think about politics influencing religion or religion influencing politics, and the story that we've been really seeing you guys talking about on this show for so long is in the trump era, especially in the last decade, we're seeing the merging of those two things and politics influencing religion. and you can think back to this very long game, the anti-abortion movement, conservative christians think about generations of change. it's not just a political cycle. but, also, the people that you mentioned, that's a couple generations ago. and what our book talks about, there was actually this most

recent generation that actually got overturning roe over the finish line was really led by conservative christian women. and they have a vision of what it means to be a woman in america, how motherhood fits into that. that really changed the game in the end, and it's not just the story of kind of the '80s religious right. there's a modern religious right that is enormously influential and it's not just on issues of abortion, it's on issues -- all kinds of cultural issues -- in this whole realm about rolling back the sexual revolution. >> right. >> and in some ways radicalized along with the republican party this is a new generation of socially conservative activists, and they've gone -- i think donald trump's republican party expanded their horizons of what could be possible, and that's part of what we see playing out in politics now particularly on this issue. >> and let's also just state what every survey shows. a lot of people just call themselves evangelicals as a culture marker not a religious

marker. no one less than tim keller said he stopped using the term evangelical to describe him seven because the word had been so politicized. i'm curious, lisa, in your reporting, i think the cliffhanger here as dobbs was being decided after the leak was whether john roberts was going to be able to get kavanaugh or coney barrett to come with him and just go with the mississippi 15-week ban. i'm curious, what did your reporting find? how close did the chief justice get to getting one of those two to take a more incremental approach? >> well, he didn't get all that close. he tried, and he certainly tried hard, but in the end, this isn't what happened. one of the most interesting things i think we found is we uncovered some new -- some internal documents that showed where this movement wants to go in the future and how --

elizabeth was talking about how this is a movement really intent on changing the structure or reverting in some ways the structure of american families. they're looking at other things going forward and that was hinted in the decision by thomas. but certainly the internal documents we got a handle on, talking about trans rights, things like schools or town meetings, same sex marriage. so this is a beginning -- the start of a series of cases on these issues that will wind their way to this court. >> so, this is exactly what i wanted to ask about. there's this fetal personhood, i say embryonic personhood. i'm on the opinion side. can you make this make sense in the broader context of the fall of roe? >> sure. look, i think for this anti-abortion movement, the fall of roe was not the end. it was the beginning of the end.

the goal here is to eliminate all abortion, if they believe it's morally wrong, it's contradictory to conservative faiths. they want to eliminate it. and so, of course, something like fetal personhood, which is basically the granting of constitutional rights to a fetus, which makes all of abortion illegal, that would be participate of the strategy. and we see that in states across the country. >> elizabeth, those that want to defend abortion rights, were there things they could have done differently, opportunities missed, inflection points where they didn't see the threat coming? >> you know, it's a hard question to answer in many ways. yes. we talk about some of those pivot points, but, also, the thing they were really up against was this generational thinking, right? the right was planning in really actually 50-year periods, they were never going to let up. the deluge of laws in state courts, how they were in state

houses, the way they were transforming the courts slowly over time, these are things that are just like bit by bit by bit. it makes it hard to see. why so many people, and why we wrote this book, were so surprised. how did this actually happen? it's hard to see when it's just inching forward. but the left -- and hillary clinton talked about this to us in an interview with her. the left doesn't have that same kind of infrastructure at all. and so this is a big reckoning on the left for how are we going to -- or are we going to respond to this and what's that actually going to take because it's not easy, quick, gratification change. you have to build building blocks over time. >> inalso think the left was looking at changing the cultural conversation, getting rid, destigmatizing abortion as a procedure. so they were fighting for public

opinion, right? it turns out power is more powerful than public opinion when it comes to the courts. so i think there was a mismatch of goals in a way. still ahead on "morning joe," as concerns grow about misinformation and the 2024 election, a new study is looking at who is most affected by a.i.-generated fake news, and the results might surprise you. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" we'll be right back.

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implement robust protections ahead of this year's election while still protecting first amendment rights. and joining us now is nbc news correspondent and anchor for nbc news now daily, which is doing great, new reporting on who might be most affected by a.i.-driven misinformation, and what did you learn? the answer scares me a lot. i've seen it. >> it scares me, too. the studies show it's not the baby boomers or even the millennials who are having trouble clocking misinformation but generation z. merely a third of adults under the age of 30 regularly get their news from tiktok. of course we wondered how does this generation actually distinguish between what's real and what's fake and what does all of this mean for how they're going to vote this year. the answers we got, trust me, they were pretty surprising. >> misinformation is everywhere.

from altered voices at a college football game -- >> he resign from my position -- >> to a.i.-generated announcements. when it comes to spotting it, a survey found younger americans performed worse than their older counterparts on a misinformation test performed by the university of cambridge with generation z americans between 18 and 29 scoring worse than any other age group. so what does that mean for this upcoming election? we sat down with a group of gen z journalism students to find out. so about roughly half of you get your news from social media. what if i told you that studies have found that gen z is more susceptible to misinformation than older generations? >> i would believe it. >> you believe it? >> gen z grew up with tablets and iphones and worse book,

twitter, tiktok generation. >> it's all on the same thing, the platforms, real and fake news. there's no differentiating. >> we decided to put them to our own test. each of you has a card. one has real, one has fake. showing examples of fake news and real news found on the internet, some of which created by a.i. they spotted several of the fakes pretty easily like this a.i.-generated image of joe biden in military fatigues. >> the guy in the back, his face is very distorted. it just doesn't look natural. >> here we go. fake. you spotted it. but others were trickier. is this photo of the bidens and the kaerts real or fake? the answer is real. this was actually taken by the white house and what's fascinating about that, it was probably done on a wide angle lens. this a.i. generated image of

former president trump fooled half of the group. this one is fake. this was an a.i.-generated image shared -- and i actually can't make out the name -- this is like an eyeball test. >> that's another thing. a.i. tends to mess up words. >> it's a concern shared by both congress and new crop of nonprofit organizations aiming to detect a.i.-generated images ahead of the election. >> my biggest concern is when it gets to the fall and even the 48 hours before the election, that we will be flooded with false images showing president biden being rushed to the hospital, showing that there's an active shooter at an election site, and having all these things be false but be credible. >> but in the end, these students got a passing grade. >> i honestly thought i would fail because it's just so easy to create a.i. images and

headlines. >> the most important part is to not see stuff like that and move away from that being part of our info stream. >> from doing this test, it almost feels like you aren't so worried about thinking that fake things are real but instead when you see real things you're not actually sure if they aren't fake. am i hearing that correctly? does that skepticism affect the way you feel about voting at all? >> it makes it harder to think about voting because you have to do a lot of extra work to find out if the things you're seeing are real. >> there are times where i think, why bother? if i cannot tell any difference between the two. >> between true and false? >> between true and false. >> i'm heartbroken. >> between true and false, and what's interesting, mika, we

only focused on those generation z and voting age, but new surveys are showing how this next generation of voters, those under 18, get their news. more than half of teenagers are getting their news from social media and among those who get their news from youtube, 60% say they are more likely to get it from celebrities and influencers rather than traditional news organizations. >> the problem is that a lot of it -- if there was guidance and triple sourcing, but they don't do it. >> that's the thing. i'm in the field talking to people, i want them to know, for example, a news organization like this, there are so many layers of checks and balances and fact checking to make sure what we bring you is accurate. >> nbc news correspondent and anchor for "nbc news now daily" morgan radford, great piece. thank you. coming up next, our next guest says one top university is struggling with a culture of fear and contempt.

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welcome back to "morning joe." this spring we saw a large increase of protests on college campuses, mainly due to the war between israel and hamas. we talked with a professor at the harvard kennedy and business

schools, arthur brooks, who says one top university is struggling with the culture of fear and contempt. >> not just harvard, this is a university wide concern now. kids aren't happy. why? >> it's a countrywide concern. you see an increase in mental illness or symptoms of mental illness, anxiety and depression, but a decline of happiness in the adult population going back to 1990 because of declips in institutions like faith, family, friendship and work. the way we've become attached to social media, the loneliness from covid acute among young people and at universities with the activism on campus has led to this current milieu. >> when you write, make harvard

haef again, the empirical evidence is in decline. the fear is real. what do students feel in the lecture halls? >> i lecture on the science of happiness and it's a happy atmosphere, at least i hope so. professors do it in different ways. the culture says one side is right and the other side is evil, which is not harvard, it's across the world. that's the best way to make students unhappy is to say your friends, your former friends who disagree with you, they're denying your humanity and you should hate them. what better way to create misery than saying to hate your fellow students? >> there's almost a tiktok orthodox lately and if you express an argument against that, a fact-based argument against that, they'll call you a bigot. then they'll silence you or run you out of the classroom. >> it can be a problem.

and the good news is we're starting to figure this out. my colleagues and i at harvard, administrators, too, okay, we have to do something. and they are. we're looking for more academic freedom. i talked to alumni of my university, they love the place because they were being challenged not because it was a safe space but it was an unsafe space. they met people different than they did, who thought differently. they loved their professors who challenged them. you want to make harvard happy again or make america happy again, we need to start loving people who disagree with us. >> let's widen the apperature, if you bump into people 30, 35 years of age, they might be talking about the costs of groceries or gasoline.

what is the deal there? >> well, people older are more likely to have religious faith or philosophy. they are more likely to have family formation, less likely to get married and have kids, less likely to have close friendships than when you and i were that age. they'll have friends at work but not real friends in life. the relationship with work is changing. then, of course, you add in the social media, hatred in politics, loneliness from the coronavirus epidemic. >> i'm getting unhappy listening. >> it's going to be okay. once we surface these ideas, once we talk about this, we can create a "morning joe," a happiness rebellion, man. >> i like that. >> start with oprah since you wrote a book with her. so you were talking about how free speech is stifled on these campuses. and so how does that contribute

to general intellectual discourse and the exchange of ideas and learning and growth and also a capacity for forgiveness when someone does express an odious idea and for people to learn? is there as much a cancel culture within the student body? >> it makes -- it weakens the whole structure. the idea is to have an unsafe intellectual space where we can like each other but hear challenging ideas. that's how people grow and learn. it's also how people get happier. that's one of the things people look back to with the most sentimentality and the greatest fondness in their college experiences. they come out of college under those circumstances not knowing what the other side thinks. can you imagine going through life thinking half of america, what a bunch of idiots. you can't live that way because you're actually ignorant of the actual cultural environment in your own country. >> how do we break through?

it's so easy thanks to the phones and social media to only deal with your fellow travelers and to not see someone who you disagree with as a fellow human being. >> it's super important those of us in leadership roles, administrators, professors, and people in media, in politics, that we start talking onlily about the fact it's not right for people not to be exposed to different points of view. we need to look -- a joyful representation of people who disagree with us, we have to model this kind of behavior of loving people and being respectful. that model is observed by the next generation of americans. on the contrary, if we're running our institutions, which some are in media, politics and academia with this dark triad of machiavellian leaders who say i want power and the way is to manipulating you into hating

your enemies, that's where we are today. if we can strike back against that dark triad personality characteristics, thenl we start to win. >> the happiness rebellion, i love that. join up, man. >> i'm an original member. >> by the way, this is mental health awareness month. it's a great time to have these conversations. arthur brooks, always great to have you at the table. >> great to be with you. actor and director griffin dunn on hips new book with new stories about his famous family. you're watching a holiday edition of "morning joe." ing jo. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. indoorsy tina loves a deluxe suite. ooh!

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it's been 12 years since 20 students and six adults were gunned down at sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. this year the students would have finished high school. instead, a moment of silence was held for them during an emotional graduation ceremony earlier this month. we spoke to writer, actor and gun control advocate, griffin dunn, about the epidemic of mass shootings in america, his work with the brady campaign on gun violence. he's also the author of the new memoir "the friday afternoon club." it's incredible. i want to get to the book in a moment. first, tell us about your work, griffin, with the brady xab. campaign. >> it started some time ago.

my parents were victims rights avocates with my sister and the defamation that happened during the trial. i wanted to be an activist in a similar area, and i've always been outraged by the proliferation of guns. and i worked with the brady campaign making psas. and through that i met a lot of families. a couple named sandy and lonnie phillips, whose daughter was killed in aurora. and more recently by making a short -- or a play, rather, called "just fiverather, called "just five minutes" written by francine wheeler whose son ben was killed in sandy hook. we're putting that on.

i mean, her -- she was an actress who, with david her husband, moved to sandy hook out of new york for the safe neighborhood, to raise their children. >> oh. >> and they are also, you know, victims of these outrageous phone calls, the harassment that's taken place. what they've had to live through on top of everything else. and i saw those interviews for those kids who are graduating that would have been in ben's class, it just broke my heart. and i thought so -- i just thought of the wheelers, and i thought of all of those families. >> yes. mike. >> you know, in the book, in this incredible book "the friday afternoon club" about your life and your family, there is a section in the book about the impact, the death of, the murder of your sister dominique had in

your family. you grew up in a cavalcade, i can't ask you anything better than to introduce the book to the book. humphrey bogaard is why you moved. what a sentence. >> my father was in lot television and he did playhouse 90. they were doing a production of "petrified forest" with humphrey bogaard in the film. he actually like might father and frank sinatra, he told frank sinatra, you should bring out dominick dunne to be the stage manager because they were going to shoot in los angeles, the live broadcast. and bogey hit it off right away. it turns out bogey's a preppy. did you know that?

>> no, i didn't know that. >> they went to posh schools and humphrey bogaard said what are you doing tonight, my dad is putting down the tape, clip boards, he said, do you want to come to a party? get in a suit and meet me over. and that night it was sinatra sings with judy garland and lauren bacal, and my dad called and said, lenny, pack your pags, we're moving to l.a. that's what he did. >> so he moved to l.a., your father became the predecessor for "true crime" stuff that's on right now, writing for "vanity fair." there's anniversary for your parents for the tenth anniversary, a cavalcade of stars. but your movement through the lives of your parents, your

uncles, john gregory dunne, joan didion, like that, what fever possessed you to sit down and write this? >> well -- >> and it is a fever. >> a dare it -- i could not stop writing it once it begun. i'd been collecting stories over the years about my family, about my descendants, about my great-great grandparents and grandparents whose lives were also extraordinary. so, i always recognized that my family was unusual. each one had a very different story. and even our animals were eccentric when i was growing up. but i -- you know, we have this life-changing moment in our family which was the murder of my sister. >> yeah. >> and that was part of our story. and when i started to write it, i didn't know i would -- that would become such a part of it.

but as i wrote chronologically, i was getting to that very dark chapter, but i was laughing all along the way, as i was writing it, telling each of our family members' stories. but i just thought, you know, as a result of this murder and that -- it was a trial, had a disastrous outcome where the killer only did 3 1/2 years, i saw that my family, my parents, in particular, and my brother, i mean, just incredible character. we all came together so strongly. and i had enough perspective to really look at that -- how that terrible chapter in our lives, how much we grew from it. how close we became. and what my mother became an activist. she started injustice for victims of homicide in california that changed laws that protected the rights of the victim. that are now implemented in 23 other states.

and she was if a wheelchair. she was awarded a medal by president bush. so, i just had to tell their story. i wanted everybody to meet my family. >> good thing -- humphrey bogaard gets you to move to los angeles. sean connery rescues from drowning you could almost be forgiven for saying i want nothing to do with this showbiz style of life at all. did you find yourself as having an ambivalent relationship? >> that was the whole intent. i didn't even want to be an actor. i wanted to get away from hollywood. i was embarrassed to be from a town of beverly hills, where the beverly hillsbillys were.

and 90210. and it didn't turn out that way. my own arc was, you know, to kind of get away from all of that kind of socializing, hollywood, the importance of celebrity. but in the distance, i found myself, you know, looking back. my father collected these -- he had scrapbooks with all of these names that were so important, all of these famous people in them. he would write, handwrite who each person was. well, i had enough distance on it to look at these scrapbooks and, go, this is amazing, all of this documentation from hollywood in the '60s, i went out and wrote a book about it. >> you sure did. >> the new book "the friday afternoon club: a family memoir" is on sale, griffin dunne. thank you for sharing your

family with us and thank you for writing the book. take care. coming up, one of our next guests argues there are republicans who could have ended donald trump political career. jeffrey goldberg joins us with what he calls a study. a study.

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when we're young, we're told anything is possible... talk to your neurologist about vyvgart hytrulo ...but only a few of us go out and prove it. witness the greatness of anna hall on a connection worthy of gold: xfinity mobile. only xfinity gives you the most powerful mobile wifi network, with speeds up to a gig in millions of locations. and right now, xfinity internet customers can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. good morning. and welcome to a special holiday edition of "morning joe." this morning, we're bringing you some of the best of our recent top discussions. and we start this hour with "the

atlantic" jeffrey goldberg and his latest piece on how some republicans could have ended donald trump's political career but didn't. jeffrey, you have a new piece for the may issue of "the atlantic" that you are debuting this morning, and the title is "the study in senate cowardice." and you write about your interview with former senator rob portman of ohio. you specifically asked him about his vote to equit donald trump in the second impeachment trial and you write in part, this "on stage, portman reminded me of his comments on the night of the capitol insurrection happened, i took to the senate floor and gave an mpassionedspeech about democracy and the need to correct it.

and this is not correct. this is not who he is. portman showed the people of ohio who will he is weeks later on february 13th, when he voted to acquit trump, the man to overturn the results of a fair election. portman asked if would be good to have president obama impeached. he went on to write, well, he's a former president i think he's out of reach. donald trump is a former president if you start that precedent, trust me, republicans will do the same thing. they will. it was an interesting and as pathetic thing to make. portman was arguing that his republican colleagues were so corrupt that they would impeach a president who had committed no impeachable offenses simply out of spite. >> so, jeffrey, this is a tough

piece. >> yeah. >> it's -- it's an important reminder, though, about why we are where we are. this senate could have, should have impeached donald trump for doing what they knew he did. they were there. they were see scene of the crime. >> and spoke out against it. >> they spoke out against it in the most impassioned way, but then these senators, some of them, who have been my good friends for 20, 25 years did what i consider to be unthinkable, they voted to acquit donald trump. and the question, jeffrey is why? why would they acquit a guy that they know could have cost them their very lives and tried to foment an anti-democracy revolution? >> right. i mean, the lie s lies unnullab

except for the folks in heir hearts we have notions about why this happened, fear, for one thing. literal fear, for the same mob that attacked the capitol attacking them physically, right? they're worried about their families. probably a more broader explanation would be simply be popularity. this is where the republican party was going. these are elected republican officials. they wanted to keep their jobs. they saw what happened to people who stepped out of line. they saw even their own colleague mitt romney being scapegoated and excoriated in the capitol for his own principles. they found executions not to vote. we don't want to set a precedent. well, it was donald trump who set a precedent by not leaving

office when he lost. that was the precedent that was set in early 2021. so it's the usual a assertment crime of lane. >> jeffrey, it's a reminder we don't have to be where we are right now if enough people took principles and doing what was wright on january 6th and donald trump fomented that. >> yeah. >> donald trump may now just be an angry rich guy sitting on the patio of mar-a-lago logging truth social posts and relatively in. and we talk about reagan national airport and being called a traitor and flips.

that's lindsey graham, we understand who he is. why didn't some of the others say, look, i liked some of donald trump's policies he was a good term, we can't go down this road. >> all you needed was ten more republicans to join the six republicans and democrats to vote to convict. if you look at some of their statements they were appalled by what happened, they were in shock over what happened. time goes on. look, mitch mcconnell put an end to this. >> mcconnell is the guy. >> mitch mcconnell is the guy. but you know what, people like rob portman, very highly respected senator, very smart guy, very accomplished guy. if just he had built up mitch mcconnell's back bone and a handful of these folks had done that, we wouldn't be here. but, you're right, mitch mcconnell was the key player,

along with kevin mccarthy and mar-a-lago, there was his moment ten or 15 republicans of high stature could have stood together and said, you know what, thank you for your service, mr. president. enjoy the golf. but we're totally out. and we're doing this as a group. so, okay, we're going to get some crap, we're going to get excoriated. but we're going to spread out the risk. but they collapsed in the face of this fear. >> you know, at least, they could have talked about the riots, they could have talked about the anti-democratic, they also could have been very machiavellian about this as they went to other republican senators and said at that time, not only did donald trump foment this revolt, this riot, but he's the first president since herbert hoover in one term to lose the white house, the senate

and the house. this guy is bad news for us, republicans. if we don't impeach him, for the reason he should be impeached, he can come back and cause us to lose again in 2021, which he did, '22, which he did, '23, which he did, and '24, which he will do. so, yes, they could have acted on principle. they also, if somebody had been like, strong enough and tough enough, they could have also grabbed people and said, aren't you tired of losing? if this, lindsey graham, if this, ted cruz, whoever else, isn't enough for your moral conscience to be moved, this is machiavellian. we lost, we got knocked down in '17, i can talk about all -- delaware county in pennsylvania.

whether you're talking about the virginia legislature. i mean, i could go down all of it, '17, '18, '19, '20, the guy just loses. they could have made that argument as well if they weren't so scared of their season shadows. >> joe, it just shows, though, at that moment, three weeks after the insurrection feelings were so raw, emotions were so raw, republicans, senators were angry, their workplace was the site of a huge riot, they had been in danger. and the tenor was, trump is over, trump is crushed. let's just move on, on the republican side. so you didn't have them stepping up. and you had an overestimation of trump being gone. and said, he's, you know, like a spider that they thought they had smashed out and he's done, but he keeps growing his legs back so he's back stronger than ever. so it really was a fundamental

mistake to not have the 9/11 hearings immediately after, fresh in the memory how the weakness of the historical memory after three years and how the conspiracy theory set in. june 12th marked what would have been the 100th birthday of president george h.w. bush. to honor the legacy of the 41st president, presidential historian jon meacham curated over 450 photos that captured his storied life. the photos are in a new book entitled "the call to serve: the life of an american president george herbert walker bush," we began by asking john why now is the right time for this project. >> centennials of presidents are often revealing. george washington's in the 1930s which is the bicentennial was a reminder of why we were doing this, amid the depression and

the forces. if fdr's centennial gauge a chance to talk about the new deal and the great society. president bush itself was part of eisenhower's centennial as he was trying to build a world order which is really more about the center of governance, as opposed to extremes just as the world was beginning to change. you know, i'm a great admire of george h.w. bush. i was his biographer. i would like to say i didn't fall in love with him, but i did come to love him, not least, because, at critical moments, however imperfect he was, he would put the country above his own interests. he was driven by ambition. he was driven to have ultimate authority in a nuclear age. but once he had power, he always

did the right thing. june 12th, the centennial, a big event in college station, where his presidential library is, and i think he is someone we have to contemplate in this moment, not because he's remote, but because he's so resident. you know, his character, his imperfections, his vices and his virtues are within reach. and they shed light on what's possible. not because he's perfect. but because he was imperfect. and yet, we manage to create a more perfect union in that era. >> jon, the pictures, the photographs in this book are extraordinary, they go back all the way through his life. but there's one most recent that gets at your point which is when senator dole rose and still

gives me chills to think about his image, rose from his wheelchair to salute the casket of george h.w. bush. and these two men of this generation who made the kind of sacrifice that we don't see now as much as we did then. the kind of men that you see, there's a lot of nostalgia and romanticism about the era. but as you've written many time, george h.w. bush was a man of character who avoided that kind of service but got in the military earlier than allowed to. >> so, that's a marvelous -- look at that for a second, as you say. these two men were about as different as you could be. george h.w. bush was born in milton massachusetts, with the grade school, andover, yale, bob

dole, russell kansas, he was in the army, grievously wounded. president bush, though he was shot down in pacific in 1944, used to say, in the navy, when you're a navy pilot, you flew off, you did your mission, but then you came back and there are milk shakes in the war room. bob dole get didn't milk shakes. and they fought each other for decades in the republican party. and this was a republican party that tragically is virtually unrecognizable today. and there you have these two rivals, recognizing in each other that what united them was more important than what divided them. and that's not a presidential library coffee mug statement, right? these were real people. we actually -- you know, a lot of us knew these folks. i remember being with senator dole and president bush very late.

and very late in their lives. and senator dole ordered a cosmo from the bartender. and president bush, said, bob, what's in that? and he said, i don't know, but there's a lot of vodka, and bush said, okay, i'm in. you know, so it's a small thing. but they were brought together by this notion that the constitution mattered, that america mattered. and the fact that this seems nostalgic telling us more about where we are now, than i think any of us would like to. >> you know, jon, you're so right. that is a magnificent photo, bob dole, 10th division is a man badly wounded in italy. george h.w. bush 20 years old, climbs into a cockpit, fighter pilot, not having to do so. he could have gotten out of it.

and there were many -- we grew up knowing people like this who never spoke about their wartime experience. but one experience captured in one of the photos of the book that george h.w. bush used to speak about a lot was baseball, and throwing out the first pitch at an astros game in 1986. there he is. >> yeah. >> the fly, left-hander on the mound throwing it. tell us about this picture. tell us about bush and baseball. >> well, he played at andover and at yale. he played in the first two college world series, lost both of them unfortunately. he was a first baseman, someone once said of him good field, no hit which actually wasn't true. if you go back and look at the records, barbara bush kept score at each yale came. he had a .240 lifetime average. better than i would ever get. his father played baseball for yale. he kept his first baseman's mitt

in his desk in the oval office as a relic. for those of us who believe that baseball is in fact the sacred undertaking. that tells us a lot. the great thing about george h.w. bush and the fact that baseball was his favorite sport is it really is a metaphor. it really does tell you something, but what is baseball but a game of endurance? and you don't have to get it right every time. and the greatest of us, the greatest baseball players get it right about once every five times, right? i once heard him, he once got in a debate with my son who was -- i think about 10, probably. and they were discussing who was better babe ruth or lou gehrig. and my son being 10 years old thought that power was most important, and he said babe ruth. and president bush said, no, it was gehrig, because he just

showed up every day. and that's what george bush did. >> the new book is entitled "the call to serve: the life of an american president george herbert walker bush." it's available now, author to and presidential historian jon meachem thank you very much. coming up, the story of two former obama officials who moved congress to take unprecedented action to address the needs of people sumping from a.l.s. we delve into the new documentary of love and life. noll ordinary campaign next on "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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if you want to defeat als, you need everyone working together. >> they took this extraordinary challenge and said, we're going to go out and make things happen. >> if we're able to untangle als, we might be able to help others. >> i am in awe of brian wallach, he wants to give back and take care of the new york stock exchange person that gets diagnosed. ♪♪ >> i've never experienced a movement like this. ♪♪ >> it's changing history in front of our eyes. ♪♪ >> brian's als has accelerated a lot. we feel like we're running out of time. hey, brian, we're going to do this. there's always been a way. ♪♪

>> this could actually work. ♪♪ >> i don't think there's any test of the human spirit more telling than someone saying you don't have a long time to live and responding in this way. ♪♪ >> that is a look at the powerful new documentary "for love & life: no ordinary campaign." the film follows brian wallach who was diagnosed with als in 2017 and his wife sandra abrevaya. two former obama staffers who used their time for the disease there is hope. sandra joins us now, she's the co-founder of i am als, also the documentary "for love & life: no ordinary campaign."

christopher burke. >> thank you for joining us. >> i gather you know each other. >> a little bit. >> i've known her so long, so proud to know you and brian. what you've done is remarkable. you've brought to life for people who weren't tracking what this disease was. who doesn't know they had a voice, a power to have a voice. and before i get more emotional, you both had done so much before brian was diagnosed, with barack obama. and it's remarkable. i just want to say with people watching out there, maybe they have als, maybe they have another disease, maybe they feel their voice isn't heard and they can't make a difference. what would you tell them about what you can do, you've showed them you can be empowered and powerful? >> absolutely with the

neurogeneral diseases. these diseases are difficult diseases to live a public life with, right? because it's evident oftentimes you that have an illness, so people, they turn inward. and that's the instinct. and that's what brian and i are trying to encourage people to fight against, because when they do come forward, their voices are so powerful. and having been in government and advocacy for so long, prior to our diagnosis, i mean, jen, our whole job, for so many years was to elevate people affected by policy. so when that happened to us, we knew that even if we were just one voice, even if you are one voice, being public, if you have one of these illnesses can have a huge impact. >> i want you to know, everyone whose seen the film, who is around you and brian for five minutes does exactly the way jen is feeling right now. i put myself in that camp as well. this journey for you and brian who was diagnosed, as i said,

seven years ago, almost seven years ago now. >> yeah. >> just -- i guess the word is relentless. as you say, we've talked about this at length, i have parkinson's in my family as well. i put you guys in the category of michael j. fox in terms of elevating something that people didn't know a lot about in raising all of this money and completely changing the game. why have you stayed in it so relentlessly for so long? >> well, first of all, we think of michael j. fox as our role model. and he really paved way for what it looked like to be public with a neurogeneral disease. he is and i am more hopeful than ever before. because the pace of treatment for these disease have accelerated in these years.

we feel there's more reason to be hopeful that these diseases can transform from fatal to chronic. >> so, chris, your first job is keeping up with these two. it's not easy. but how did you come to the story? and how did you want to put together such a beautiful telling what they're up to? >> well, as jen said at the beginning, proud to them, right? i'd known brian for 20 years. we went to college together. i met sant dra on what effectively was the first day of filming in chicago, i came out to film an interest spot for their nonprofit on als. while i was there i realized there was a whole lot more going on than could possibly be inanswer is slated in a 60-second web promo, right? we kept the cameras rolling. i heard more of the backstory. i met sandra. i tagged along on meetings and

i'm like, this is a complex web here. in 2016, in front of the house, brian's first meeting that sealed the deal. i'm in for the long haul, whatever it takes. like you say, a matter of keeping up with them. it's been really well worth it, especially when you get to share it with a broad audience. >> you mentioned that impactful congressional testimony. let's look at a scene where brian and sandra are getting ready to testify before congress. >> it's moving quickly, is the fda. >> be more flexible and being less flexible? >> yes. >> all right. it's write a whole new testimony. none of that is in our current testimony, brian.

>> i'm always fast. watch this. >> that you doing the running man? okay. you're such -- you're doing an als running man. just for the record, it's 10:00 p.m. the night before the hearing. 11:00. >> oh, yeah. it's 11:00. my clock is a little late. >> so there it is, for als and optimistic, that was 2 1/2 years ago that scene. talk to us about how you started to break through, major league baseball weekend, als, tonight, you're honored at yankee stadium. tell us where the fight is now? more people know? >> more people know. more people are acting, i think that's central, right? if you tell a story of hopelessness then people give up

and don't engage. we're, one, authentically hopeful, and two, this movement has moved ftd, parkinson's and als. people are speaking up and taking action. the major league baseball community has been a big part of that. tonight at yankee stadium is go going to be amazing. and this film getting selected on amazon prime with over 2 million viewers on their platform, it's incredible. >> chris, what do you think people will take away from the film, other than being so impressed with brian and sandra? what do you hope viewers take away? >> really that you can and should turn hope into action. whatever that is in your life. hope alone is not a strategy, right, but when you sigh how they, their ever-living community have taken that hope, fostered together and put it together on the research side on the building side it is truly

inspirational. i don't use that word lightly. it really is. anyone going through neurodegenerative diseases, taken it for years on the campaign trail in the white house, and applied it to something people can understand is something i'm proud to capture. >> they have made a difference. so many have changed the game and we love you, we love brian. >> thank you. >> keep up the great work. the new documentary "for love & life: no ordinary campaign" is streaming now on prime video. you can learn how to get involved in the fight against als at iam als dot okay. thank you both. >> thank you. so, 30 years ago, the film "schindler's list" brought increased worldwide attention to the atrocities of the holocaust.

it's brought tourists to the historic sites director steven spielberg filmed in poland, my brother mark brzezinski and some of spielberg's team gave us a tour in the ghetto and around the city that spielberg used to bring authenticity to the film which now play a part in the city's resurgence of jewish life. >> in "schindler's list" there was only one choice, that was on all of the actual occasions where the actual events took place. this isn't a film that could have been shot at a movie studio. this had to be on practical locations, we went to the factory where they made the enamelware, the sense that it brought to life for all of the

crew and hundreds of members of the cast. >> not is not good. the list in life. >> schindler factory museum, leifing memorial about the importance of not being indifferent. tell us what we should be thinking, as we are in this precious space? >> schindler who was a german businessman here, taking over the jewish factory is one of the main individuals who we focus here together with over the thousands of jews he saved. >> what was the impact locally of the release of the film and the opening of the schindler factory museum? >> it encouraged people to visit krakow which had a major impact on the tourist in the city, but also on the education. schindler was a first, a businessman, and his story and

also his moral attitude at first, he took advantage of the german occupation, german nazi occupation of the city. and then as he was acquainted with the fate of the local jews and he was moved and decided to help them. ♪♪ >> here is where the decision was made to use accounting and paperwork to run around the nazi authorities and to save the jews. >> this essential production also allowed him to keep the workers here. and in 1944, when the eastern front was moving towards krakow, he was able to evacuate over 1,000 of his workers.

these are the names of the workers of the schindler factory. the jews were safe here. and the cubic form and the pots and pans symbolized the production that allowed saving them. >> eva braun and alan starsky, you both won roles for producing "schindler's list." >> during this period of time, we were collecting that, this contact was one of the places which we knew we had to shoot. >> how do you feel alan and eva, being in this place right now, given that this was one of your life's greatest works? >> translator: it was one of the most important scenes of the

movie. the suitcases or belongings thrown away, from people, thrown from the balcony. it was full of emotions. >> this movie with the knowledge, to deduct the new knowledge about the holocaust and the second world war. ♪♪ >> you lived this horrific experience. what can you share with our audience about your memories? >> i remember this house, i remember knowing from others that there was a torture claim er chambers in the basement of this building. >> you lost your parents, your sister here. these are unspeakable tragedies. >> we kids had to report to the square, if we didn't report, i knew what will happen to me

because i saw other kids being shot. >> bernard, tell me the lesson of "schindler's list." >> that we as human beings need to wake up in what we believe in and what we're doing. and for being more conscious about, you know, who we are. [ crying ] >> come. >> there wasn't a single day that went by that wasn't really, really emotional and devastating. the despair and the grief that all of us experienced, telling the story. so, i had to find a way to insulate myself. so, i could have some scintilla of objectivity and be able to tell a true story in a truthful way. >> there's been a renewal of jewish life in krakow. >> certainly, the production of

"schindler's list" gave it a new energy, because there were many survivors who suddenly felt strongly about their jewish identity. it created the atmosphere in which jewish life here became more important than before. >> they're here. >> they're mine! >> every day that goes by, i'm losing money. every worker shot costs me money. >> here in the making of the story. >> sure. >> just a normal tradesman that tried to make a deal using workers. >> sure. >> and slowly and slowly he started to represent them. ♪♪ >> came up with this idea of bringing schindler's survivors to jerusalem to walk past the grave of oscar schindler and put

commemorative stones on his grave. he brought, i think, 350 holocaust survivors that were the jews that schindler saved. >> this is the jewish tradition. to put the stones on the grave of those who passed away, just to mark the grave. >> it means that a right to connect the history with today. >> this was also interesting that they were laying stones at the grave of oscar schindler who was not jewish at the christian cemetery. >> one of the good news stories is the resurgence of the jewish community. tell me how you feel when you see it. >> so many are -- nobody said anything or did anything. >> yeah. >> about this place. >> yeah. >> so, in some way, i'm angry. >> yeah. >> but i'm also grateful that it is happened. >> that it's finally -- >> yeah, finally happening.

as i'm waking up, i feel that this land has been very bloodied for aeons and aeons of time. >> sure. >> and i think there's an awakening happening which i'm happy to see. >> in many ways, people here see that the polish story and the jewish story are intertwined. >> yes. they cannot separate one from the other. >> wow. poland was home to the largest jewish population in europe before world war ii. the schindler factory museum in krakow alone now draws over 400,000 annual visitors in no small part due to the enduring message of spielberg's oscar-winning film. >> molly, i'm just curious, as we're experiencing a rise in anti-semitism here in the u.s., i mean, that was such a powerful example of how we need to be mindful of the big picture.

and even in terms of preserving democracy here in the states. >> yeah, i mean, as a jew, i remember watching that movie when i was a little bit younger and just feeling so very connected to the experience of my family. >> yeah. >> the 1800s after ukraine, and i had polish ancestors and i remember my parents telling me about watching the holocaust and feeling so powerfulless over these relatives and cousins and millions and millions of jews murdered. i think, look, the lessons here are so important, right, that we can't other group of people, that othering leads to terrible, terrible consequences. and, you know, look, as a jew, i'm just so moved by this work, and also very hopeful that the jewish population once again in

poland, it shows a real sign that poland is doing something right, when you have groups of people coming back and trying to rebuild. i mean, one of the losses besides the millions and millions of people is the culture heritage. the prayer shaws and all of the artifacts of our collective, you know, growing up is gone. so, to come back and try to re-create that is so meaningful to me. coming up, our next guest was named by rolling stone of one of the 50 best comics of all time. joining us live in the studio next. we're trying to save the planet with nuggets.

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remain in their community. i'm working towards a bright future. [narrator] youth advocate programs. others talk social change. we make it happen. ♪ comcast jingle ♪ my wife stephanie is directing tonight. tonight's my night, though, okay. stephanie called 911 and a gigantic fireman appeared. i thought, i get it now. [ laughter ] >> i could get used to this. mommy's home! i came around the corner, and my son said, it's just her. a look standup special. in the special, tig, a mother of two speaks about the humbling parts of the parenthood as you just heard there as well as the health challenges that come with aging and even an unexpected

encounter she had with a firefighter inside her bedroom. the emmy and grammy nominated comedian joins us now. she's also the co-director of the movie "am i okay?" which premieres tomorrow on max. we'll talk about that in a minute. welcome. >> thank you. >> can we hear about the firefighter encounter or do you not want to give too much away about the special? there are some questions in your mind. >> it was a little confusing. i am married to a woman, and she had to call the -- she had to call 911 and a fireman came and hauled me out of the house in the middle of the night. >> oh. >> and his just big, strong arms holding me and carrying me really -- i truly was in his arms thinking, oh my god. i get it now. i was so confused, and he also had a big mustache, and i --

>> that'll get you. >> the mustache. >> i didn't know i was into mustaches. i was so confused because i was, you know, fighting for my life, but also, like, am i in the wrong life or, you know, i didn't know what was going on, but yeah. >> you got it. >> yeah. >> you got it a little bit. you've got two kids as you talk about in the special. your wife also as you said, stephanie, directed this. >> yes. >> what is the dynamic there in terms of work partnership? so she's directing you in a special. how do you guys get along that way? >> we get along really well. i mean, we met working together. we met as actors on a film, and we've created shows and written tv and film and we've done everything together. so it just kind of felt more -- my wife has a different look than the fireman, but my taste is all over the place, but i feel like we have very similar

sensibilities with slight differences of course, but i think those differences elevate our vision and everything that we do. >> i mentioned the kids. there's a hilarious moment in the special, where tig recounts a moment she arrives home to less enthusiastic children. >> one day i came home by myself and when i walked in, the alarm said, side door open. [ laughter ] and our son started yelling, mommy's home! mommy's home! that's what they call stephanie, and then i came around the corner and our son, finn, looked back at me and then looked at his brother and said, it's just her. [ laughter ] as if to say, don't even bother

even slightly -- [ laughter ] -- turning your head. the letdown is so monumental. learn from my mistake. >> as someone who has two kids at home myself, i can relate to not being the chosen parent there. >> tell us how you decide to draw from your home life, kids in particular into your act. >> i mean, it just -- i feel like it's that extra sense as a comedian where i think, oh. this is definitely something i'm going to take on stage, and then, you know, now that i am maried with a family, i -- it's not just me anymore. so i have had moments where stephanie has come up and been, like, i feel like that's just for us. >> right. >> and -- which is fine because there's a million other opportunities. i always say i live in a house with a writing staff because

there's always something that i can grab and use. >> no doubt. we all have multiple children. i think we all related to that moment. i'm often called, like, the number three favorite person in the house and i'm, like, there's four of us. hold on a second. hold on a second. i think when people see you on stage and have watched your special, they think, oh. she just kind of has it together all the time. she just walks out on the stage and just does it and you've talked a little bit about how the chaotic events leading up to the special -- and i'm sure just leading up to what you do on the stage. talk to us a little bit about that because people don't always see that side of comedians and others who perform publicly. >> when you're saying the -- >> i think you talked a little bit about traveling through europe, losing your suitcase, just all of the things that go into what you do on stage. you don't just pop out there i guess is my point. >> i mean, i normally do. i'm a freak of nature in that way where i can just show up at show time, walk in the backstage door and walk on stage, but when i was touring europe right before this special, i did. i lost my suitcase for almost

three weeks, and it was just on tour without me, seeing all the sights that i was hoping to, and i also -- somebody walked in front of me at the airport with their huge luggage and tripped me, and i was launched. i fractured my wrist, ended up on crutches for the rest of my tour and i just got off crutches three days before that special. i didn't think i was going to be able to tape it. >> if you ever see that person in the airport, i mean -- >> truly. >> we talked about your professional collaboration with stephanie. you also co-directed the movie "am i okay?" it stars dakota johnson. tell us about that. >> it was written by our friend laura pomeranz. she's such a great writer. it's a later in life coming out

story. dakota plays i think a 32-year-old. it's not like your grandmother's coming out, but she should if she wants to, but yeah. it's just -- it's a story about friendship, but also coming out and basically you should be who you are at any age and do what you want to do, and it's really such a beautiful performance by dakota. i really think and know -- we just screened it the other night. the audience went nuts for it. it's so funny. it's so touching and -- and there's some silly parts in it too, but yeah. i think it's really, really good. coming up, we'll dig into a recent piece in "the economist" on how a tyrannical president could use the constitution to subvert america's democracy. could use the constitution to subvert america's democracy.

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we will not be intimidated by the threats of dictators, but they will regard as a breach of international law or as an act of war, our aid to the democracies which bear to resist their aggression. they will not wait for an act of war on our part. they did not wait for norway or

belgium or the netherlands to commit an act of war. >> you are promising america tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody. >> except for day one. >> except what? >> he's going crazy. except for day one. >> meaning? >> i want to close the border and i want to drill, drill, drill. >> that's not retribution. [ applause ] >> i'm going to be -- you keep -- i love this guy. he says you're not going to be a dictator. i said, no, no, no, other than day one. >> okay. so what you saw first was 1941, former president franklin delano roosevelt standing up to dictators in world war ii, and donald trump just last year vowing to be a dictator himself for a day -- >> it's a long day. >> it has been a long day. joining us now, u.s. editor

for "the economist." the magazine's latest issue takes a look at the strength of democracy here at home with a cover story entitled, and it will be my first question "is america dictator-proof?" john, what's the answer? >> hi, mika. i feel like i'm not going to cheer you up after those gloomy poll numbers that were getting you down earlier. there's a couple of ways to look at this. there's one way to look at donald trump and this whole debate which frankly he started when he made those remarks i think it was last year about being a dictator on day one, and we all go around in circles looking at what he actually did when he was in office last time around, look at some of the things he said. there are debates -- good debates about what he would really do, but there's another way to look at that question which is to depersonalize it and to take trump out of the picture and say, okay. if america were to elect

somebody who were both malign and competent and had real questions over whether donald trump is competent enough to pull this off, but were that to happen, how strong are the checks and balances? and there there's mixed news i've got to say. there are some really substantial checks on presidential authority. if you look at how dictatorships have functioned elsewhere, often with military coups involved, that's impossible in america, i think, you know, america's military is one of the strongest institutions in the country with deeply embedded democrat you can norms, but i think it's also the case you look at some of the formal checks on the presidency and one of the things we've learned since 2016 is that they just don't work, you know, impeachment is one of the biggest checks written into the constitution as a restraint on tyranny, and we have had ample proof over the last few years that that just doesn't work, and if you look down the list, there are a whole bunch of emergency powers that the president has

which somebody who was really determined i think could exercise to subvert important democratic norms in quite a worrying way. i'm not saying that trump is going to do this, but i think somebody could. >> but john, in terms of restraints upon the presidency or restraints upon a candidate running for president who happened to have sat in the oval office for four years, what would restraints or what would the restraints do to someone who for instance, just yesterday, donald trump -- just yesterday more than suggested that the department of justice under president biden had authorized use of lethal force to maybe take a shot at donald trump? maybe try an assassination attempt on donald trump? what do we do about a candidate like that? what kind of restraints would work against someone clearly not within the bounds of any restraint? >> well, so then i think we -- you have to look back at what he

did when he was in office, and again, this is a question that journalists like me tied ourselves up in knots to figure out. you look at the memoirs of people that served in his cabinet. mark esper writes asking if it was possible for him to give an order to shoot people in the leg, shoot protesters in the leg in 2020, and he was told, no, no. you can't do that, and then we get into a question of, well, how serious was that? is that a thing he really would have done, or is it like the remarks you were talking about earlier on contraception where he says a thing and it's not quite clear, you know, how serious he is. so in terms of restraints in the case like that, i think those norms around the american military are hugely important. i spoke to a bunch of people who served in pretty senior positions in the trump administration and they pointed out to me that one of them said the d.o.d. is not in a rush to operate against american

citizens. those kind of checks are very important. if you look through the constitution, look through the law, it's a lot of those things that aren't written down, norms around doj independents, and how the military would behave in times of crisis. those are the real guarantees rather than the stuff that's written down. i think if you ask most americans what they're taught in the civics class, it would be, well, the constitution is the guarantee, and i'm not sure that would be a bit too comforting. >> i think one of the things that trump taught all of us is democracy is partly laws and it's partly norms and traditions and if you have a candidate who's willing to ignore those norms and traditions, then the democracy gets put under threat. one of the things people talk about and the trump campaign talks about, openly wanting to do is under this provision of schedule f it's called, making nonpolitical people, and making them political appointees which could change america's doings -- democracy not just for this

presidency, but for years and years to come. do we think -- we hear that the trump campaign is sort of more organized and more efficient and has more of a plan. do you think it is up to the task of doing something like that, and how much of a threat would that be to democracy? >> it's definitely more organized than was the case prior to 2016. i'm sure you've spoken to a lot of the people i've spoken to, katty, in maga-aligned thinktanks, and they're well developed, and the federal bureaucracy is a huge beast and we've talked to people who've served in the white housed, served in the administration, and getting people to did anything is quite tough. there are 25,000 odd lawyers in the federal government, and so a trump administration could come in really well organized with a really good -- well, not good, but, you know, a determined, thorough plan, and i think it would struggle to get all of these things done. i don't think the federal

bureaucracy -- i don't think you can wave a wand and make this stuff happen. that said, you can undermine some really important -- >> yeah. >> -- some really important norms, and you can do a lot of stuff. i guess it depends, and you need to calibrate your degree of alarmism. you look way back, and i think george washington had a staff of four when he was president. the federal bureaucracy has grown a huge amount over the course of the 20th century. it was interesting, both clips of fdr that we were watching earlier, mika. he did serve three terms, right? which is something that donald trump was sort of teasing us about the other day, that the existence that federal bureaucracy now, which isn't written into the constitution is a pretty important check, i think. i don't think he can get away with it on day one. >> not day one, and it is fascinating. george washington only had four people working for him, and of course, two of those were employed just to separate jefferson and hamilton. so he really was working effectively with two people.

u.s. editor for "the economist," thank you so much. claire, you know, i'm so glad john brought up george washington because i was going to come to you and just say that since 1789, the united states has depended on the good will of the sitting president of the united states to make the constitution work, and we worked in the negative with donald trump, if you don't have that, you don't have a constitution. i mean, richard nixon, right? people talk about richard nixon. there is no comparison of nixon and trump. nixon lost in '60. he may have complained about it. he may have -- his people may have thought for good reason that illinois wasn't counted the way that it should have been counted, but he said, i'm not going to put the country through that. he conceded. when the supreme court came back unanimously and said, you have to turn over the tapes, nixon

knew his presidency was over. why? because he played within the constitutional guardrails, and the good will that we expected of presidents. not so with donald trump. so what do we do moving forward? >> yeah. and let's not forget bush/gore. our country -- >> my gosh, yes. >> it was on a knife's edge, on a knife's edge, and the supreme court spoke and there were a whole lot of people, especially people that were really familiar with the law that were very unhappy with the supreme court decision, and what did al gore do? he did what was best for the country. we do not have that guy in donald trump. he is not going to do what's best for the country, and i'll tell you what worries me the most about this. what worries me the most is that bright line dividing our military from our politics, and if you all remember, donald trump sent over some of his idiot minions to the department

of defense at the very end of his administration and frankly that was part of the reason that we had the big messup with the national guard when it was not called out quickly enough when we had -- we had his rioters trying to stab out the eyes of police officers with flagpole, and i'm worried that our military is going to be weaponized in a way that would be so damaging to our country. he's talking about using the military in a domestic way. that is not what our founders wanted. our founders did not want the military -- the federal military to be used to abuse the rule of law in this country that has been so clear about how the rule of law is supposed to work in america, and that's why i've said a number of times. i think the military leaders who know who donald trump is capable of, who of retired, have really

a strong obligation to speak out against donald trump between now and november. kelly, all of them, mattis. >> there's a remedy to all of this. it's called the united states supreme court. it's not called the supreme branch or nothing. it has to stop acting like a parliament that supports each president, and be jealous of its own authority and use it. that's how you put a check on a president who doesn't want to observe particular norms or laws, and keep democracy humming. coming up next on "morning joe" -- >> there's a lot of history here. as you knows it's synonymous with bruce springsteen. >> bon jovi, little steven. >> we had the crows. everyone wants to play the stone pony. >> since its opening 50 years ago, the stone pony has been a beacon for musicians and fans alike. now a new oral history of the

iconic music venue captures the turbulent times of the smalltown bar that simply refused to give up. that's coming up next on "morning joe." e up that's coming up next on "morning joe."

welcome back. a new book is highlighting the incredible story of a legendary

nightclub that changed american music as we know it. the stone pony in asbury park, new jersey. there it is. it's one of music's most famous venues. new jersey native bruce springsteen made it famous five decades ago, and he's continued to show up for several surprise performances in the years since. the boss' incredible relationship with the stone pony is detailed in the new book titled "i don't want to go home," which also includes interviews with legendary musicians, deejays, local officials, employees at the club, and even a few governors. the book's author joins us now. he's also a national political reporter for "the new york times," and full disclosure, he and i are members of a reporters text chain and if its contents were leaked, it would be disastrous for all involved.

let's not talk about that. let's talk about the book. you are a proud new jerseyan yourself, and let's talk about the origins of the stone pony and what it means. >> i wanted to write this book because i grew up going to the stone pony in the late '90s when asbury was a different town. it was struggling. it had bottomed out and i was going to warped tours and punk shows and everything around it was just a wasteland, and my job and everything else on the campaign trail, it took me a long time, and when i came back in 2017, it was a new town. there had been a rotting structure and there was now this gleaming hotel this luxury components. the stone pony was the one constant. i wanted to talk about small cities that fell apart in the '80s and '90s and there's so many of them, but so few have come back, and asbury is one of those. so to tell that story, i wanted to go to the one continuous

thread and that was the stone pony. it's a town that, you know, there's shirt that is say, music saved asbury park. there are shirts that says, bruce might show up. those are town mottos and energy that drives this town, and so, you know, for a long time when it was on life support or when it's thriving, the stone pony has been asbury park's theme park. >> so tell us a little more about the most famous relationship of all, which is of course, bruce springsteen with this bar that it's part of his life even today. >> oh yeah. the bruce might show up is a very real thing. even if you are seeing, like, a band that you'd never expect bruce to come by like social distortion, he comes and plays with them. it started in a way that i experience. southside johnny went there. they all grew up together on the jersey shore. they were best friends from the years of the upstage in the late '60s and so when the jukes start playing at the stone pony regularly, and they're playing different music.

they're not doing top 40 stuff. they're doing blues, r&b, their own music, what bruce loves. he's, like, well, my friends are here. let's see what it's about. he brought no guitar and he was look at the bar. he would get up and play with his friends and that started this long tradition of bruce just being there, seeing his friends, seeing music he thought was interesting, sustaining a local scene and just feeling compelled as he does to play, and it would take him through the '80s every sunday night in 1982 in the summer, playing with cats on a smooth surface. it was never billed. he doesn't bring his own guitar or the anything, and he asks the band, can i come play with you? there are different artists and he's, like, i would get a tap on the shoulder and he's, like, hi. i'm bruce. i know. >> fun mememories. let's bring in someone else who

has a lot of fond mememories. jen palmieri. >> am i beaming? this is why i got up at 4:00 a.m. in california. nick and i have spent many hours obsessing over the stone pony, but there's something that you write about, which is the mythology of the pony, but i want you to talk about what went into making that mythology, right? it's not just bruce. it's what that represents, the opportunity that he might show up, that there's -- there's a mix of community bands and super famous people, but the pony is an egalitarian place where people create this magic. it is -- if people have not been there, it's a mystical place. what do you think after obsessing about it for years, since you know you have had that mythology is really about? >> i think it's about just kind of what you were talking about. it's that egalitarian nature, and the way that asbury park has been up and down and through so

much, you come together as a community and as a scene, and when there's something that's held it in place for so long, that means a lot to a lot of people, and i think, you know, in the book, tom morello calls him the good ghost and there's so much alive there. it's bruce and it's southside, and it's also bon jovi, and zach wild who learned to play guitar at the stone pony. it's the jonas brothers who were signed to disney who had a gig early at the stone pony and they were running around the boardwalk trying to get people to come to their show. there are so many people and places that have cough into the stone pony and you never know what's going to happen. it's got that spontaneity, that unpredictability. it could be bruce, stevie

vanzant, and that unpredictability is addictive and it keeps me coming. the fact that i could be there, and something unexpected could happen, and it's that nature of live music that amped up a little bit more when you have the history that it does. >> we were there one night, flowers from the killers. but the -- i think people may not understand that they knew -- people may knew it had a big music history, but this came back as the rebirth after the terrible riots. how did it last all 50 years? explain how it lasted this long. >> sure. it has been on life support twice, and, you know, we'll get into that, but the way the pony opened was in 1970, asbury park was torn apart by race riots on the west side. it had been a long, segregated

town, and in many ways still is, and the black population on the west side of town was frustrated with the lack of economic opportunity, especially along the board walk, and it led to riots as it did across the country at that time, you know, also in nearby newark, and that created a flight out of asbury park which was once this booming resort, but as stevie vanzant said in the book, it created this art scene. when the stone pony opens in 1974, you know, and it was trying to figure out what it was, was it a disco club, a rock club, would bit a top 40 club? those guys made it something different. they walked in and they said, give us your worst night. we'll take the bar. -- we'll take the door. you take the bar which is a great deal for bar owners, but we're going to play what we want. that started this movement, and, you know, as the town dragged down, the pony still did okay, but eventually the town dragged it down too far, and in 1991, it closed. it opened within six months ago

because people knew this was too important. this had to go on, and it became the home of alternative rock and punk and jam, and when it closed again in '98 dragged down by more struggles in asbury park, people weren't sure it was going to reopen, and a man named dominic santana saw tourists taking pictures of the pony. this was when it was closed and graffitied. he knew this had magic and we can open it. by opening it, it started by what would be the renaissance we see today. >> we should note that bruce springsteen wrote the foreword to this book, and described the impact it had on him. he wrote this. staying local through the crazy, high times was the smartest thing i ever did. the patron allowed me to continue to be one of them. i'm thankful. i don't get down toth pony as much as i used to, but i'm still glad it's there. long may she run.

the book is titled "i don't want to go home." it's on sale now. get a copy. "new york times" national political reporter. congrats on the book, my friend. coming up, a recent pbs documentary is looking at the work being done to save the animals of ukraine amid the ongoing war. we speak with the director next on "morning joe." g war. we speak with the director next on "morning joe.

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the entire world is seeing the depth of animal suffering. >> people understand what's going on. animals, they don't understand. >> the ukraine war has really been an eye-opener to many of us as to the complexities of our obligations to animals in wartime. >> no one's going to be left behind including their pets. >> that was a look at the new documentary "nature: saving the animals of ukraine." it is the latest installment in the emmy award-winning series from pbs, which follows the heroes who are risking their lives to rescue abandoned pets and animals. joining us now is the film's

director anton petushkin. thank you for coming on and thank you for telling this story. talk about overall the animals of ukraine, what their plight is, and what some are trying to do to bring them to new homes. >> i mean, like a lot of people, they are risking their lives, you know, in order to save the animals and we were so moved by that story, and we decided to kind of make this documentary. so it's been a lot of stories, and we're covering in our documentary, and not only pets. we're saving not only pets but, like, big cats like lions for example, and we have someone who has been saving lions from the front lines for two years. a lot of people refuse to go to the front lines. i didn't know that in order to transport the lion, you have to

tranquilize him. you can't move you have is a big animal. >> you can't put it on a leash. there was a story of saving a cat that was stranded on the seventh floor of a building for 60 days. >> it's a miracle actually. still nobody can tell me how did it happen? like, because without food, without water, this poor cat survived for 65. >> how is that possible? >> we don't know, and he is, like, 13 years old. he's really that old, and he has room between 7th and 8th floor because this particular building was destroyed, completely destroyed, and this poor cat became, like, a celebrity and with the help of this cat, volunteers succeeded to build an animal shelter. >> give us a sense of the numbers here as best you know if terms of numbers who need help because their owners were sadly killed or their homes were destroyed and people can't care for them. how many people are doing this

work to try to participate in these rescue efforts? >> hundreds of volunteers actually, and, you know, we have this motto that when you think that you rescue animals, animals rescue us. they help us to cope with the stress, and also for the volunteers and soldiers. i went to the front line and i saw soldiers heavily geared with cats and stray dogs. >> we we have that story with tom nichols. >> we had a contributor talking about how his cat saved his life. it's a mental health issue for sure, not just soldiers, but children. children at war for sure. >> yes. >> the film also reveals how some animals are helping with war recovery efforts. here's a clip from the documentary about a bomb-sniffing dog named patron which means bullet in ukrainian. >> his training began with getting accustomed to the sound of explosions along with the smell of gun powder. [ speaking in a global language ]

>> he passed with flying colors. within a short period, he had traded in fetching sticks and slippers for sleuthing out explosive objects, even explosives hidden deep in the ground. >> that's incredible. i mean, these -- so these animals provide a service. they're not just -- some might say it's fruitless. worry about the people, but i think what we're showing here is that animals are sort of intrinsic in the human experience, especially in the middle of a war. >> for sure, and i think that this is the question of humanity. this whole documentary is all about humanity, not only about

pets or animals, and also about human traits. speaking about patron, you know, he was awarded first time in the history of unicef, he was awarded the good best dog. alongside david beckham and orlando bloom, he's a true celebrity. >> my brother has an instagram. he's an investor in poland, and we are big dog people in this family. that's incredible. this is incredible. you can stream "nature: save animals of ukraine" online. >> thank you for having me. jonathan lemire throws down the gauntlet to one of the all-time cast members of the new "despicable me" movie. >> you were in "anchor-man." do you think you can take the

"morning joe" cast? >> i'm not afraid of the team of "morning joe." >> we'll bring you that conversation with steve carell, kristen wiig, and will farrell about the movie which just opened this week. ll farrell about the movie which just opened this week

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as we celebrate america's 248th birthday, we bring you a story that truly embodies the american dream. lulu wang, a wall street powerhouse turned arts patron gam her journey more than seven decades ago, when as a child she fled communist china for america. what she later accomplished as one of the few women on wall street in the '70s is a testament to the spirit of perseverance and passion. rarely does she grant interviews, but this morning, lulu is opening up to nbc's chloe melas about her remarkable life and legacy. ♪♪ >> reporter: if you come regularly to new york's

metropolitan museum of art, you may run into one of their regulars. >> i live two blocks away, so you can see i'm here very often. my husband thinks i live here. in fact, on the third floor, we have a 17th century bedroom with a beautiful bed and he accuses me of living there sometimes because he so seldom sees me at home. >> lulu c. wang stands just over 5 feet tall, she's a powerhouse wall street legend who in recent years has dedicated her life to the arts, specifically 18th century furniture, and she has six galleries at the met to prove it. >> so here we are. >> yes. >> this is your gallery. >> uh-huh. instead of to having a room filled with furniture, we chose to pick the very best and the works of art on pedestals, properly lit. >> reporter: for wang who will celebrate her 80th birthday in the fall, it's more than just chairs and tables. it's about shaping a life. >> i think art has incredible

power, and i think art reminds us that we are all human beings, and when you see a beautifully made piece of art, whether it's from wood or from canvas, you're reminded of the human effort behind it. this human painting captures so much of what i've admired in the american spirit and i think what draws immigrants to america. >> this gift she now uses as a thank you to the country that helped shape her. one of four daughters that she immigrated with her family when she was just 4 years old, amid the chinese communist revolution. >> we start from scratch. we left everything behind, and we only had our family and our dream of a life together. >> reporter: despite not knowing a word of english, lulu quickly found her way. >> and one little girl came up to me and she said something. i knew one word, what? i found out later she was asking

me where's the waste paper basket. >> reporter: she fell in love with america. she married her childhood sweetheart and had a son, and she had a realization. >> i thought wall street was an interesting place to go. an interesting place to ask why. >> reporter: this was the late '70s a time when very few women were even working on wall street, let alone leading it. >> i never thought of myself as just a woman or just a chinese person. i really thought i was lulu and lulu wanted to learn. lulu wanted to succeed. >> reporter: and succeed she did. wang went back to school and earned an mba from columbia business school and opened her own hedge fund. do you consider yourself a trailblazer? >> trailblazers are early on, and i suppose you might say i was a trailblazer on wall street. people always said, well, it's been a hard area for women to get traction, and again since i never really thought of myself as just a woman, i was an individual who really had a

vision of what my firm should be. >> reporter: after her financial success, it was her love of collecting that brought her to the met, a place where she sometimes feels it really is her home. >> and there are two things that make this very new york. one is that very blocky style, very strong, and then the front serpentine front, that is very typical new york. a very strong -- >> i'm always setting off the alarms. >> you're allowed. >> i can touch it. >> reporter: america's 248th birthday, lulu hopes her story inspires others. >> we came together because people from all parts of the world came to find a new life and a promise, and i think this is what has made our country great, and we need to work against a division that occurred, and i think art is a great common ground for all people. >> reporter: chloe melas, nbc news, new york.

♪♪ so the minions are back just in time for july 4th, and jonathan lemire got the plum assignment to interview the stars of "despicable me 4." that discussion with some of the biggest names in comedy is next. e biggest names in comedy is next.

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all right, gentlemen. i was recently called out of retirement. >> it's always something. i can never focus on just being evil. >> insert card and remove rapidly. card not read? come on. >> did you pull it out rapidly? >> yes, yes. very rapidly. >> some of you may be wondering why you're here. we need volunteers. nice work, gentlemen.

you will be the first to test our superserum designed to transform you into cutting edge agents or you might just explode. ♪♪ >> ladies and gentlemen, our new secret weapon. the megaminions. ♪♪ >> gru and the minions are back in "despicable me 4." this is the first film in the series in back in "despicable me 4." this new chapter brings fresh

mayhem and a new villain that forces gru into hiding. i recently sat down with will farrell, kristen wiig and steve carroll. this is one of the biggest of all time. it's theme parks, it's my 401(k). so thank you for that. why does this franchise resonate with people? >> it really -- i have no idea. >> i mean, the short answer, we did the first one. i thought it was great. i thought it was funny and

heartwarming and all of those things. it felt like a real movie, like the relationships meant something. i give the credit to the writers, who have been able to expand the world over the past three, four movies. >> my youngest as a baby resembled a minion. you all have, of course, kids who have grown up with it. is it a hit in your home? >> they love minion everything as much as i can get. but they've only seen the first one because they're still quite young. >> of course they're excited. >> how can you not with a minion? they're funny.

>> you're a hairstylist at an upscale salon. >> a hairstylist? >> did your arm have to get twisted to join the cast here. >> well, i've been begging for years, decades. these guys would just laugh and change the subject. finally i got a shot and this is my shot. i hope i didn't blow it. >> how much creative input did you have to have that character and that accent? >> that's what was pitched to me, a young boy with a french accent. you're given a ton of leeway to

create, and that's not allowed all the time. so this is great. >> it's always something. i can never focus on just being evil. >> there are some limitations and challenges to the animation too. >> they pretty much encourage us. what's great about not doing something live, you can just -- >> we had so much fun doing it. >> we shot in a beautiful studio. >> did you guys get to work

together? >> all the time. >> they asked me to record from my bathroom on an iphone and they'll fix it later. >> you got the part. >> i did. the check will cash. >> why do you think your chemistry works? >> i think both these people are incredibly funny, obviously. they always make me laugh when we're doing scenes together. >> do you think the anchor man action team cast could take on the team here?

what can "despicable me" tell us about our democracy right now? >> if going to "despicable me" invites just one person to cast a vote. [ laughter ] >> it's all about getting out the vote. >> that's all we want. >> i was at the premier yesterday and a little kid yelled, get out the vote, make sure you vote. >> mission accomplished? >> yeah. >> what is a minion really? >> a minion -- >> just imagine a minion saying get out the vote, like what that would sound like in minionese.

>> minions are tiny manmade soft animal people. >> they're living creatures. >> they're alive. they love bananas. >> they love all types of food. >> the fart gun premiere last night was a huge hit. everybody enjoys a good fart gun moment. i will gift your show some fart guns. >> you've now said fart guns two

or three times now. i can't tell you how much i love that. >> the singing at the end, it is beautiful. did you do your own recording? >> yes. >> 100%. >> that only took 15 takes. i just wanted to make a perfect. each take got louder and louder and louder, no better, just louder. >> i hired lionel ritchie to come hang out with me in the bathroom with the iphone. he's here today. you can talk right inspect camera. hi, honey. he's so giving. >> i know. >> you all have such deep ties

to "saturday night live." the skills you learn and the intensity of that, how does this inform this role and others you do? >> so much. i feel like that was sort of the best college you could go to, especially just how fast everything is. i can change my clothes in 30 seconds. >> i remember thinking this is the hardest/most fun thing i probably will ever do. >> steve, gru is chief among your iconic roles. >> it's up there for sure. >> i'm like a nice meat loaf!

i'm pretty delicious! >> bingo, i got a big one here. >> you thought it was good, but you never know until people make that judgment and go to see it and embrace it. i'm happy it worked out. my kids grew up with this thing. i love it. it's a very sweet part of my life. >> "despicable me 4" is in theaters. that is it for this special holiday edition of "morning joe." the news continues now