thanks for joining us this summer for a special edition of the rachel maddow show, which is my interview with stormy

daniels. one miss daniels, when she agreed to this interview, it was because in large part, that trial was over. the republican presumptive nominee for president, former president donald trump the criminal trial in new york centered on the payment that was made to ms. daniels to try to stop her from speaking publicly about her experience with mr. trump. ms. daniels testified in the trial, mr. trump was convicted by the jury on all 34 counts with which he was charged. after his conviction, after that trial was over, that is when ms. daniels agreed to sit down with me for her first american interview after the conclusion of the trial. now, it seems the trial maybe is no longer concluded. it is no longer over. today, in new york, judge juan

merchan agreed to delay donald trump sentencing in this case. is facing up to four years in prison. the sentencing will be delayed now so that judge juan merchan can consider a new motion from trump's defense lawyers. the new motion from them is because of the just astonishing u.s. supreme court ruling yesterday, which went further than basically any legal observers had expected in granting trump immunity from prosecution for anything he did while in office that could loosely be construed as an official act. one of the most radical elements of the supreme court's decision, one that was so radical justice amy coney barrett wouldn't sign on to this part of it, one of the most radical parts of it is that the ruling not only establishes trump can't be prosecuted for so-called official act, it means even if his alleged crimes were committed on his own time as a private matter, prosecutors bringing charges against him for those crimes can't use any evidence in court that relates to any arguably official

actions. so, in the new york criminal case related to this payment to stormy daniels, trump's lawyers are going to try to claim, essentially, that some of the crucial evidence that was used to convict him should retroactively be deemed inadmissible on the basis of the fact that he was doing president stuff when he did those things. that showed up as evidence in this case. now, with this new supreme court ruling, anything that is a president thing can't be cited as evidence, even if it is cited as evidence to support proving a totally unrelated crime he did as a private citizen. so, long story short, instead of sentencing donald trump next week, thursday next week, which is when it was initially scheduled, judge juan merchan will instead consider the motion from trump's defense

lawyers to throw out to the jury's guilty verdict. you will consider trump's defense lawyers argument about that. he will consider arguments against that from the prosecutors. on september 6, he will rule on the motion to throw out the guilty verdict. if he doesn't surmount the verdict, trump's sentencing will go ahead on september 18th. rather than next week, it will be september 18th. that was all just decided today. one of the things it means in practical terms is that if the republican party's presidential nominee, donald trump, is going to be sentenced to prison in this case, that sentence will now be handed down seven weeks before the election instead of 17 weeks before the election, which is when it was going to happen. they say most americans don't start paying attention to the collection until after labor day. now if he is going to get a prison sentence, his prison sentence will be well after labor day instead of months before labor day, which had been the original schedule. since the debate between trump

and president joe biden, democrats have, of course, been newly and accurately focused on questions about president biden's age and the question of whether he should stay as the parties nominee or should he and vice president harris have her take over the top of the ticket and pick a new running mate for her. this is an increasingly animated conversation on the democratic side. presumably democrats realize they need to move forward quickly on this, whatever they are going to do. on the republican side, though, since the debate, donald trump is moving backwards. he is moving backwards to this criminal trial at which he was convicted. >> how many millions of dollars to in civil penalties for molesting a woman in public, for doing a whole range of things, for havingwith a porn star while your wife is

pregnant? what are you talking about, you have the morals of an alley cat. >> i didn't have a porn star. >> not only is donald trump's defense team asking, effectively, to reopen this case and to push any possible sentencing of trump 10 weeks closer to the election than it otherwise would be he is also, as of this debate, i mean, he is still trying to tell america that stormy daniels is lying. that they did not have sex. he does not need to litigate that point . but, he keeps trying to, still, even now, even at that debate. the reason stormy daniels testified in detail under oath at his criminal trial about her interaction with him is because he built his legal defense, in large part, on his contention

that the sexual encounter between them did not happen. he didn't have to do it that way but he did. it was not necessarily the strongest legal approach to a defense in this case, as evidenced by the fact he was convicted unanimously on all counts. but, that is what he did. that existence by him that she is lying, that consistent by him that the sex between them never happened, it has had very practical consequences for all of us. his the metal, his claim that this never happened, hits incidents the denial be made in court by his lawyers on his behalf meant the jury in his criminal case was asked to assess, well, okay, which of these accounts is credible? his claim that it never happened or her testimony that it certainly did happen. it can't be both. the jury was invited to assess in open court which one of these accounts is right. that is the legal effect of it. the human effect of it, for all of us, we the public got all of these details of the sexual encounter between them not because any one of us was

desperate to know but because it was a crucial question at his criminal trial. that was the test. her credibility, the details she had to remember became very legally relevant. i importance in terms of the first ever felony conviction of the u.s. president in american history. so, there is a somewhat bizarre legal approach here, which he has continued since of the trial, even at last week's presidential debate. is the meal that this encounter happened. there are the legal consequences of that for him, there are the things we can't ever forget, consequences for us as the american public because of all the details we had to learn as a consequence of that in his legal strategy. but, there's also stormy daniels herself, a real life person. and, the human effect of all of this for her is that donald

trump, former president of the united states, really did try, he really did decide he would try to stave off these 34 felony convictions by attacking her as a liar. he did not have to do that in order to defend himself against these charges. in fact, it wasn't even a good legal strategy. but, that is what he did. his attacks on her in those terms have led to years of ever increasing threats against her. so, we will talk about that tonight, including what pat has meant for this one life she has on earth and for her family's life and safety. we will talk about what it means for all of us citizens, whose country's history has been profoundly shaped now by this one woman insisting that she should tell what she knows, regardless of the threats, regardless of the targeting and the consequences. with that, here is stormy

daniels. thank you so much for doing this. >> thank you for having me. >> you don't have to do this. i was very surprised you agreed to do it but i have been looking forward to talking to you for a long time. i guess i mostly just want to know how the last few weeks have been. this has been a many years saga for you but this is a qualitatively different time since the conviction. it has been a few weeks. >> has been a lot, it has been intense. i think that heart of that comes from my mistake of, in my mind, thinking that this would be an ending, that this would be the light at the end of the tunnel. this was what i was working toward and it would be like a movie when the judge hits the gavel, the credits roll and it would be tied up in a gift bow and it would be done. that is not how real life works. and, my friends are, you know,

celebrating and sending me messages and text. not just friends, everybody. people who are happy that the verdict came down and it was over. meanwhile, i knew that, for me, it was just getting started. for every person that was excited and thrilled and congratulating me, there was somebody else that was very upset. and, it just poured gasoline on some of that stuff that i had been going through the entire time. and, it is kind of common knowledge now that a lot of people were doxed. they were trying to dox jurors. i know it is related because it happened while i was on the stand. >> what is the consequence for you of having your address out of the question >> my mailbox was destroyed. my animals have been injured. my daughter can't go outside. there's a press and onlookers

out there. i'm afraid to go outside. i'm afraid to go out and mow the lawn. i can't go anywhere. i am afraid of being followed. death threats are so much more graphic and detailed and brazen. people don't care. and, it is scary, you know? leading up to the trial was hard enough. flying up here repeatedly interesting in the rooms and going through things and reliving all of these terrifying moments. the only thing that kept me going, i guess, was thinking there was an end in sight and is not. >> is there any sense of, i mean for vindication? this obviously, trump being convicted, this is not the case that you brought. this is the case prosecutors brought. you were brought here as a witness. you are subpoenaed. you had no choice about it.

not your case. that said, the way the case was presented to the jury, i mean, the prosecutor described to the jury in his closing argument stormy daniels is the motive, citing how crucial your testimony was. your testimony was not only riveting, it was integral to the case. does the verdict feel like a vindication to you, at least in the sense that the story is a straight now that the jury has agreed he was wrong when he called you a liar? >> yes, but no. i mean, i don't understand. life is not fair. i am getting constantly attacked. it was called the stormy daniels cost money trial. that is not what it was but it was about the falsification of business records. mine was one thing but i was the most exciting part. i was the one that took the stand. i was the one that my testimony made such an impact. there were so many other people they would have called. they didn't call karen mcdougal.

was it vindicated? when he was found guilty for that brief moment, it was worth me testifying because, at first, he wasn't going to and i had to shut down my life. i was basically, by choice, sequestered. i didn't work, i didn't tweet. if you know me, that is a big deal. i didn't want anything to be misconstrued or entered into evidence and create more work for the prosecution or get the case thrown out. or, disallow me from testifying. did i want to testify? no. did you know how scary that is? especially when once i got up, if i didn't know before hand how nasty susan necheless was going to be. i also know that if i didn't testify, it would look like i was not to be trusted, there was a reason they didn't want me to testify. i knew that i had to and it was important. as soon as he was found guilty i knew i had done the right thing, in one aspect. the other side of that is that,

like you said, i didn't bring these charges. i didn't ask for it. i was subpoenaed to be at so much of the hate mail i get is drop the charges. i'm like i didn't sue him. i'm getting nothing. it caused me, it cost me so much to come up here and testify. i did not get paid. i'm a registered republican. sorry. >> when you say you paid to,., you paid your own extensis to testify question >> of course, multiple times. i wasn't like compensated or written a check or anything like that. i got nothing. this has cost me so much money. i wasn't paid by anybody. my testimony that i was subpoenaed, that everybody considers me to have on this great duty and be a hero, which i am not, i just told the truth. i am just a human being. i didn't do anything heroic, i didn't go into a burning building, i just said the truth. i have never changed my story, despite what other people said. go back, look at interviews from 2019 2020, 21. my story hasn't changed at all.

it is the only one that has been consistent. >> let me ask you about that. what you are saying is very much what the prosecutors said in the closing argument. i just want to, i want to ask you about the way the prosecution, for lack of a better word, used you. the way he fit into the case. i want to hear from you whether or not you agree with that. he said, "the defense has gone to great lengths to discredit stormy daniels on her account of such wonderful with mr. trump. they shooter, they try to suggest her story has changed over the years. it is not, at least not in any way that is significant. to be sure, there were parts of her testimony that were created for the but that whole episode, that was uncomfortable. some of the details about what

this would look like, the contents of his toiletry bag, the topics of conversation, that of the kind of details i submit to you that ring true beauty of the kind of details you would expect someone to remember. if she didn't testify about the details, it would undoubtedly give the defense more ammunition in their efforts to call her a liar, to argue she was never in that hotel room." in his opening and closing, trump's lawyer todd blanche call to mcdaniel's testimony doesn't matter. that is a bridge too far. it is certainly true we don't have to prove that sex actually took place. that is not an element of the crimes charged. but, the defendant, trump knew what happened that hotel room. to the extent that you credit stormy daniels testimony, that only reinforces his incentive to buy her assignment. the defense knows that because if her testimony were so irrelevant, why do they work so hard to discredit her? what i'm saying is her story is messy and makes some people able to hear, it probably made some of you, meaning the jury,, table 2 here. that is kind of the point. that is the display the defendant didn't want the american voter to see. in the simplest terms, stormy daniels is the motive." that is when your testimony was not just an amazing display but also american history, the way that it fits into this. do you agree with the way they

characterized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> yes, the way that he is sending your testimony functioned and it was relevant to this crime and. >> absolutely. why would i make that up? i am a. i am comfortable with it. for those people out there who would like to let her get up there and say whatever she wanted, and i was, keep in mind, i did nothing but answer the questions. i didn't go up there and present an essay of spoken word theater. i answered questions. if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask me the questions. for the people who said it was uncomfortable to witness or two here, i lift it. all you had to do with your my very pg rated version on the stand. i had to relive it, i had to state it in court in front of all of these people knowing that it would be public record and my daughter is going to read this, everyone is going to

read this. in preparing for the case, remember, i had to go back and think about all these details and make sure i had everything absolutely accurate. it is important. it proves i was telling the truth. and, maybe this is too far for our conversation right now but for all those people who like to drag me for talking about what his genitals looked like, don't you think for a second i wish there was something else i could prove? i wish he had a birthmark that look at the state of texas on his shoulder or funny looking mole. that is the only thing that proves that he did take his clothes off in front of me. you know as well as i do if he hadn't, it was not that i was lying, he whipped his junk out a long time ago and proved i was a liar. it is the only thing i have. he knows i'm telling the truth, which is why he wanted to shut me up. >> as soon as you were done testify thing about what happened in hotel suite, trump's defense lawyers moved

for a mistrial and they said what you had testified and the detail of what you testified about it was going to be prejudicial to the jury. it wasn't related to the crimes that were charged and the jury hearing that was going to make them have so much improper prejudice toward trump that the whole trial had to be thrown out. and, the judge said no to the mistrial and the judge said, listen, you shouldn't have said at the outset in your opening statement that the sexual encounter never happened. that set this case up so the jury has to assess the credibility of stormy versus the defendant appeared >> they put me on the spot. >> they did that. but, that, the detail of that testimony will be the basis of trump's appeal. he will appeal the decision to if not called a mistrial. that will be the way he tries to get out of this conviction. can we go over that, would you be willing to go through that testimony with me right now? there's no cameras, nobody has seen it. i printed up that section of the transcript. is this weird, do you mind doing this question >> i felt a lot weirder. >> i walked right into that one. >> when we come back, stormy daniels gives her testimony here

and explained what she meant by it. there were no cameras in the courtroom for this testimony or the struggle but we have cameras here now so we will have that next. i should also mention that when ms. daniels told me that, while she was on the stand she was doxxed, details about her were exposed, she is right . late in the afternoon of the first day she testified, "the new york post," tabloid newspaper published an article showing pictures of her home in florida. separately, should also tell you, we have confirmed today that, in court that they her first date of testimony, trump's defense counsel did seek to enter into evidence a document with her full home address listed on it unredacted. ms. daniels alerted the judge, which is reflected in the transcript. the transcript says "an exhibit is shown on the witnesses and parties screens. trump defense lawyer, "i offer this in evidence." prosecutor, objection.

judge consistent. ms. ingalls whispered the court, "this has my address." trump defense lawyer, "let me ask you, you only partially filled this for, right?" prosecutor, "objection." the judge consistent. trump defense lawyer, can i approach? stormy daniels respond to the judge, that has my address. nobody in the court could hear this happening but we have the transcript of it now. at that sidebar, the judge says, "she, meaning stormy, she turned to me, she looked very fearful and she said that's got my address. you asked to approach and she said that scott my address. she is a very much afraid of this form, meaning afraid of this form being shown with her unredacted address on it." that form was not admitted into

evidence. it was not, therefore, shown to the jury but it was shown on what they call the screen for the witnesses and the parties, which means it was displayed on a screen visible to stormy daniels herself, visible to the lawyers on both sides and visible to the defendant. i'm telling you this because i want you to know that we checked. she is telling the truth about what happened to her on the stand. more to come, much more. i will be right back. back. , or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat. cashback on everything you buy with chase freedom unlimited with no annual fee. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. we just need to advance the cure. the heart of st. jude is to take care of children with catastrophic diseases and to advance their cure rates. but we need to be able to do that for everyone.

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>> can we go over the testimony, would you be willing to go through the testimony with me right now? there's no cameras in the court, nobody has seen it. i printed out that section of the transcript. is this weird, do you mind doing this? >> i've done a lot weirder. >> i walked right into that one. okay. i will be -- >> i have to put my glasses on now. >> that's fine. stormy daniels testimony in the criminal trial of former president donald trump was consequential to the case as it was just showstopping for everybody who heard about it. we will recount that testimony here now. i'm interrupting right now and not just jumping into it straightway mostly because i need to warn you some of this conversation is about to be graphic. the next couple of segments, in particular, the conversation will not be appropriate for all

audiences. if you are squeamish or watching with kids or if you, for any reason, don't want to hear descriptions of unwanted sexual contact, this is your cue to check out and come back in a few minutes. with that said, here we go. stormy daniels with her own testimony and me very awkwardly playing the part of susan huffines or, the prosecutor who questioned ms. daniels on direct examination. here we go. >> this is on your direct examination. i will be the prosecutor and you be you. >> you are a good susan. >> thank you very much. what happened when he left the bathroom ? >> when i came out of the bathroom, expected to exit, go around the bed and go back to where we had been sitting and talking. i've been here long enough that was when i realized how long i had been there. when i opened the bathroom door to come out, mr. trump had come into the bedroom and was on the

bed, basically between my self and the exit. >> what was he wearing at the temperature >> his boxer shorts and a t- shirt be >> what was your reaction to seemingly that question >> first was startled. i wasn't expecting, to be there, especially without a lot of clothing. that is when i had moments where i felt, sorry, that is when i had that moment where i felt the room spin in slow motion. i felt blood basically leave my hands and feet and was like if you stand up too fast and everything spins. that happened. then i just thought oh god, what did i miss read to get here? the intention was pretty clear. somebody stripped down to their underwear and posing on the bed like waiting for you. >> i'm going to stop for a second. when you say the blood left your hands and feet, like you stand up too fast, everything is spinning to be mean that you were, you were shocked, you were surprised he had come into the bedroom and had taken off his clothes.

>> honestly, even if he had his clothes on, i would have been startled. then, when i realized that, you know, he was without a lot of clothing, i was unaware of what is happening. >> the prosecutor continues. what happened when you came out of the bathroom, did he stay on that? >> when i exited, he was up on the bed like this. they pose and because i am not wearing pants. i say i have made, choked, symptoms he was doing his best burt reynolds. >> he extended himself to show you the length of his body. was he joking? >> i don't think so. i wish, that would have made it better. >> was there a bearskin rug? there is not be returning to the transcript. what happened after that?

>> when i went to step around, i laughed nervously and tried to make a joke of it and step around and leave. even though i was moving like i was in a fun house, it felt like i was in slow motion, i thought to myself, great, i put myself in this bad situation. what did i do? how did i miss read everything? he stood up between me and the door. he didn't commit me, he didn't rush at me, he didn't put his hands on me, nothing like that. i said i have to go. i have to go. he said i thought we were getting somewhere. we were talking and i thought you were serious about what he wanted. if you want to get out of that trailer park, basically. i was offended because i never lived in a trailer park. >> at this point in the testimony, there are objections and sidebar with the judge. you are trying to be volunteer here, he was not physically coercing me. are you, at that point, trying to establish that you didn't want to do it but he wasn't making you do it? >> he wasn't, i didn't want to say it was any sort of rape or used a weapon or physical

violence or force. also, could have taken him. >> you said i put myself in this bad situation. what is the badness of the situation? >> i had an ask who also worked at a pr firm. he had these pearls of wisdom. one of them, the press will always use the picture of you looking the worst, not the one of you looking the best. the sorts of things. put yourself in a bad situation, bad things happen. because of a bad situation, he used to say that to me all the time you don't get in a car with your friends who have been drinking, then it is your fault. yourself in a bad situation, bad things happen. but, how did i, how did i miss read it? if a friend is wasted, falling down drunk, you know they are drunk. i was like what you did i miss that told me to expect when i came out of the bathroom that he was there? >> after the sidebar, the prosecutor says you were both standing up at this time?

>> yes. >> what happened next, briefly? >> i think i just blinked it out. here is something i want to say. i think they have a typo here. i didn't say blacked out. we've taken it and run with it. if you go back and look at my older interviews where i have the same thing, blocked it out. >> blocked. you think what you said is i just blocked it out. >> blacked out means i fainted. i never lost consciousness, i think i just blocked it out >> you explained in the transcript was i was not drugged. >> table have taken this and run with it. you blacked out, you woke up on the bed? no, blocked it out. go back and look at old interviews. i know i have an accent. i think i just blocked it was not drugged, never insinuated i was on drugs. i never said anything of that sort. i just don't remember. >> there are some objectives that it happened between the lawyers and the judge. but they are discussing there is whether you are implying

that you had been drugged. what you are really, it seems like you are trying to say is there's parts of the sexual encounter that i don't remember even now. >> i have to tell you, rachel i did write about this in my book. when i was meeting with prosecutors over and over and they were nice people, they tried to be gentle with me. they were asking me the questions over and over because they wanted to make sure that they were doing their job correctly. they were also probably trying to prepare me for how awful the defense was going to be, although no one could have prepared me for how awful that woman was to me and how much she shamed me. they asked me such like horrific, specific questions like did his tongue darted in and out of your mouth? i don't know if you can use

some of this. you can just cut it out. when he was touching your , did he flick or roll or pinch your ? what did his skin if you like, can you describe it? things that would prove, you know, when he said he didn't use a condom, what did you do with the semen? i remember being in the car going back and having to wipe it off my leg. this is the graphic stuff that is not in the testimony that could have been. as i remembered more of that, it still makes me, it marrowstone the window of what i remember and don't remember. there is still a tiny part that i don't. if what i have blocked out i've now started to remember is so terrible, what am i still not remembering? >> why do you think you have blocked some of it out? >> i mean, i just said, i just felt -- >> protecting you from the memory? >> yes and i thought that there

was something wrong with me or that i didn't, i didn't say this stuff because i thought people would say that i was lying or making it. he would remember if something like that had happened to you. that was then and as i have gotten older and i've met people that have gone through similar things or i've talked to therapist about this, they are like no, that is a defense mechanism. it is way more common for you not to remember these pieces then for you to remember it. and, it made me feel a little better, in a messed up way or a little more normal. but, i'm not, i'm not a liar. >> stormy daniels is my guest this evening. i should tell you, we have reached out to the trump campaign to ask for comment, they have not responded. we will have more with ms. daniels in just a moment. >> this is one of the things that i hadn't remembered or thought of. it's not much in my book. book.

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we are back with more of my interview with stormy daniels. for this section of the interview, you will reiterate what i said earlier in the

hour, which is that this portion of our discussion may not be appropriate for all ages or for anyone who doesn't want to hear relatively broad discussion about unwanted sexual contact. it is not.. these details are directly relevant to establishing in front of the jury the relative credibility of ms. daniels in contrast to the credibility of mr. trump denial that their sexual encounter took place. that said, if you do not want to know these details, this is your fair warning. all right, let's go. this testimony, obviously, the way the defense reacted to it was to say this is so prejudicial to trump and it is not related to the crimes. now the jury has heard this, we have to throw the whole trial out. the judge allowed it because this, you having this detailed recollection allows the jury to assess your credibility about whether or not this thing happened when trump says it does not happen. for all of us out in the world watching you testifying, those of us in the court, for everybody who read the transcript, a whole new thing emerged from this we didn't know before, which was this

kind of feels like he was offering you a heart on "the apprentice," and you did not want to sleep with him and he were pressured into it. it wasn't that it was rape but it was manipulative. >> it was definitely manipulative. i have fought salon by saying this is not me too. i never said it was. i haven't said it was "me too." i haven't said it was rape. that would open me up to that strippers can't be raped. adult film actresses can't be raped, which is one tiny step up she was asking for it, she deserves it, which is what the defense tried to do on the stand. you have seen so many men in their underwear, you can't be shocked to see them. well, you are not expecting it, you know, yes. >> so, i am reluctant to do this but do you want to keep going with the transcript question >> short.

>> question can you briefly describe at some point, did you end up on the bed having sex? >> yes. >> and you very briefly describe where you had sex with him? >> the next thing i know, i was on the bed. somehow, the opposite side of the bed from where he had been standing, which was, sidebar. how did i get there? there still, there is still missing time. >> you can have a bathroom. >> you would think i was here but i ended up on this site by the wall with the window. >> the foresight away from the bathroom and you don't know how. >> no. there's still a tiny, everyday i wake up and think is tonight, i don't remember. when i go to bed tonight is tonight the night i member these pieces? how terrible is it? maybe it's not, i don't know. i was on the opposite side of the bed from where we had been standing. i had my clothes and shoes off. i believe my bra, however, was still on and we were in

missionary position. >> there is some objection, discussion with the judge. prosecutor resumes. without describing the position, do you remember how you got your clothes off? >> no. >> do you remember how your" of? no. is that a memory that has not come back to you? you don't, at this point, remember, is that correct? >> correct., did you end up having sex with him on the that question >> yes. >> do you have a recollection of feeling something unusual you have the memory of? and if the subject of your just so you could see it because, at this point, trump's a lawyer objects and it is sustained and the prosecutor moves on and does not follow up on that. her question was do you have a recollection of feeling something unusual that you have a memory of? you know what she was asking you about? >> about his skin. >> his skin, what do you mean? >> this is one of the things that i hadn't thought much of, it's not much in my book but as they were questioning me, i was

in my mid-20s. >> 27. >> i was an adult film actress, which means the people i was performing with were adult film actors. ripped, young men close to my age who make their money off their bodies. i had never touched skin before that felt like that. the word i used was like crepe. the damage that comes from being older. it was so shocking to me that i remember is that that but it felt like. anyway. i think that is what she was asking because i don't think she would be praising enough to ask about his i don't know because there was an objection.

>> the prosecutor resumes. what, if anything to remember other than the fact that you had sex on the bed? >> i was staring at the ceiling. i don't know how i got there. i was trying to think about anything other than what was happening here. she does explicitly ask . >> did you touch his skin question >> has. >> was she -- >> she was circling back to that. >> there were objections there. the next thing she asks on the record in the transcript was was he wearing a condom? >> no. >> was not concerning to your question >> yes. >> did you say anything about it question >> no. >> or not? >> i didn't say anything at all. >> i know from rereading your testimony this morning that in the conversation you had with trump ahead of the sexual encounter, you had told him that you worked for wicked entertainment because they were the only continent mandatory company in the business. i was under contract with wicked pictures my entire career and the only scenes you will see of me there is not a condom is something that was shot for my personal, piracy, like for my personal website or like whatever. every single movie that i ever made for wicked pictures, even

if i was performing with my real life partner, my husband, my daughter's father, we even had to use a condom. >> so, the implication i draw reading those two part of the transcript, knowing those things about you, him not wearing a condom was of concern to you and you not saying anything about it is upsetting to you. >> absolutely. if i had gone there with the intention of having sex or being an escort or being paid for sex, i would have got my own because i am allergic to latex. everything i have ever done on film or in my personal life if i needed to use a condom, i've always had to provide my own because i have to use polyurethane. i've never relied on the male performer or the guy i was on a date with to bring their own because they usually bring latex and that makes me feel like i am on fire. >> so him not using one and you not saying anything at this point is emblematic, at least

in your telling, of the fact that you did not, neither intended nor expect for this to be sex with trump >> i would have compared it would have been safe. i would not have felt like my genitals were on fire. >> the prosecutor continues. do you recall how it ended, the sex? >> yes. >> was it brief? >> yes. >> do you remember at some point getting dressed? >> yes. >> tell us what you recall about getting dressed. >> sitting on the end of the bed, noticing it was completely dark outside and it was really hard to get my shoes on. my hands were shaking so hard. i had on tiny little, they were stripy gold heels with tiny buckles. my aunts were shaking. he said okay, let's get together again, we were great together. i just wanted to leave.

>> did you say no at any time during sex with him? >> no. >> why not? >> because i didn't say anything at all. >> my conversation with stormy daniels continues right after this. this.

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for this special edition of the rachel maddow show tonight. the republican nominee for president was excited to be sentenced next week. it has now been delayed until september. that is expected to be when he will be sentenced for his conviction on 34 felony counts. those crimes pertain to his effort to prevent lancaster this evening from speaking publicly about etc. the counter she says she had with him shortly after the start of his current marriage. as you know, he was convicted of using his business, of creating false records to try to disguise a $130,000 payment to my guest tonight so she would not speak publicly before the election about her alleged sexual encounter with him. in this part of the interview with stormy daniels, we will go through more of her testimony from the trial but also her original testimony explain what you meant. the criminal charges brought in this case were brought because of the means by which trump the

candidate tried to cover up and discuss the fact that he had paid the school to keep quiet about this story. her elaboration here is important because what was it about this story that was so worth paying to keep quiet, that was worth the gymnastic, even baroque efforts he went through to try to cover up that the payment was made? here is stormy daniels. did you notice afterwards a dvd on the side table? >> yes. is a dvd i had given him earlier in the gift bag from the show. was on the nightstand that i signed. >> can i stop for a second, this is a stupid question, and i'm sorry. what is an adult film company sponsor a hole at a golf tournament, is it because it is a funny? >> you weren't one of my standup jokes, rachel. >> here is me total proved, unable to talk about this. they

sponsored a hole and i had to keep saying it over and over again and almost killed me. that is why it is funny? >> i think it is. now that you have relatively comedy act. it is basically like they got myself into some other stars, they brought their own holes to the whole. it is like bringing sand to the beach. thank you. >> well done, thank you. here all week. so, you had given him a dvd because wickett had brought you and other people from the company to this golf tournament, where there lots of other adult film companies at the tournament? >> we were the only adult film company. we were in the gift room. room. and they brought different dvds, you know, of the actresses and that one in particular, i wrote and directed it and start and he

wanted something specifically that i had directed, which is why in my stupidity, maybe he is serious about having me on the apprentice. >> you started talking about the fact that you also starred in films you haven't directed. >> yes, they were introducing everybody that was there, this was my contract, star and director, stormy daniels. and he said oh, you also direct.>> and that was the basis on which you had conversation with him, about your role in the business. and is what you are saying about that, when you say stupid me, by that do you mean his expression of interest in you as a director and is asking

business related questions about the industry. >> it was legitimate, and why wasn't it a red flag to have a meeting? oh, you went to a married guy's hotel room, what are you pecting? well, there's two parts to that, one, nobody knew who malania was back then. i knew he was divorced before, because everybody saw that scandal, did anybody in 2006 know her name? nobody knew, it wasn't a thing, i didn't know he was married until he told me. second, when people think hotel room, 99% of people have only stepped foot in, it is a bed, dresser and hotel room, this was bigger than my apartment, it had a dining room, living room, two bedrooms, if you told me that it was a hotel room and

you didn't know it was a hotel room, i didn't think it was. it was an apartment. those of us who conduct business at conventions and things like that, don't think twice about going to somebody's suite that has a conference table and it, people look at me like you knew what you were getting into. no, i had also gone to 100 other meetings in rooms exactly like that and nothing bad happened.>> the prosecutor says, when you were leaving and he went to leave, what did you do or say?>> he said we have to get together again soon. he went to kiss me goodbye and i left as fast as i could. that was it.>> did he say >> anything about talking again?>> yes, he said we should get together again, we were fantastic together, i want to get you on the show. he didn't offer to pay me or anything, or a cell phone number, nothing like that.>> did he ask to keep it

confidential? >> no. >> did you end up having dinnere in his room that night? >> no.>> and do you recall how you got back to your hotel? >> it was a cab.>> did you tell> anybody else about what happened?>> yes, i told very few people that we had sex because i felt ashamed, a lot of people just assumed and they were making jokes out of it, i didn't think it was funny, i didn't want to assume that i was a paid prostitute, because i wasn't. os i didn't want to get back to anybody that i was dating.>> so, the overall picture in terms of your real life, not just in terms of this case is that this is a situation where there might be a legitimate business reason to talk to this man who is more than twice your age who you had no intention of sleeping with. he turned it into a sexual encounter and he did not want

it and you did not feel good about it and you were embarrassed about it when he was over. >> yeah. >> having to recount this in detail, in order to rebut his characterization of you as a liar, even though you have told this story in a lot of different venues and under oath, this is the testimony from the trial, it is still not easy to talk about. >> no. because i have to do it over and over and over. and i think about how hard this must be for a rape victim, at least they can only say it once in court to a prosecutor and they don't have to read about it every day, it must feel so terrible for those people, now i understand why a lot of people don't come forward.>> when we come back, stormy daniels talks about why it is

this confrontation with trump means that she is now not making a living and why an action by trump's lawyers right now has, she believes, put her at imminent risk of losing her home and of possibly having an arrest warrant issued for her. that's next.>> you could be the biggest trump supporter, a woman voting for trump, how do you feel about him having your young daughters legal name, address, and identifiable information? identifiable information?

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>> when you say you paid, you paid with your own expenses? >> yes, multiple times, i wasn't compensated or written a check or anything like that, i got nothing. this has cost me so much money, i wasn't paid by anybody.>> we are back to my interview with stormy daniels, i want to let you know that ms. daniels was not paid for this interview, we do not do that under any circumstances. we also came to learn over the course of preparing for this interview, reporting the circumstances in which we were going to be discussing these matters with her, we learned she is in fairly dire financial

circumstances because of her confrontation with trump, as evidenced by the fact that she recently asked a friend by the name of duane crawford to open an emergency gofundme campaign to try to pay the attorneys fees she has incurred and as she tries to hold onto her house. for that part of it, i'm going to let ms. daniels explain. so the case, in which you just testified was a criminal case brought by prosecutors, you were subpoenaed to be just justice as a witness. the reason you owe trump money is a separate matter, your former lawyer who is now in prison for defrauding you and other clients brought a defamation suit against trump by you, that case was thrown out and trump was awarded attorneys fees and that totals, to make a long story short, that totals about $600,000 that you need to pay trump.>> correct, and i was never allowed

to give a testimony, they never saw my evidence, it was never ruled when i was telling the truth or not, so for all the people think you lost the case because they found you to be a liar or untruthful, they never even looked at the case. the other side of that, e. jean carroll was called the exact same thing by donald trump and not only did they accept her case and let her take the stand and have her day in court, they have given her millions. meanwhile my attorneys fees have racked up to over half $1 million. >> do you have any means to pay that?>> no, nor do i think i should, it is not fair.>> in terms of what happens next, the judge lifted the gag order, so he is still prohibited from attacking court staff and prosecutors and their families but he is free to attend jurors and witnesses, which means you. when the gag order was in place, did you benefit from that at all?

were you worried about it being lifted? >> no, he's going to say what he wants to say anyway, i'm not a fan of what he can say about me or what he can call me. i'm telling the truth, i'm the only one that has continued to tell the truth, i can prove everything that i have ever said. so i'm not concerned about those things he might say, i'm concerned of him saying something that will make his followers come after me more.>> has that changed over time the character of the way people have came to you with that kind of language? >> the biggest thing is they are not hiding, now they are using real stuff, there's facebook threads from people in my own community, planning to do things to my house and my family. and i sent some messages, when there it was on another show and they couldn't even air

everything that was said, graphic details about how they were going to rape everyone in my family including my young daughter, the graphic was talking about a young child. and most important, trump is trying to make an example out of me, of anybody who dare stand up to him and he will have them served the day before yesterday and they are trying to take my partner's house. it has nothing to do with me, he doesn't even know i don't own that house. i pay rent every month because i split the bill with him, i don't own the title, i didn't put any money down on this house. they are demanding personal information about my 13-year- old daughter. i refused to fill out the form.>> they are identifying information about her.>> yes, where she lives, her legal

name, date of birth, why do you need that about a child? so i left it blank and they rejected it and sent it back and are demanding i be held in contempt with sanctions and that i have to pay this money. i have to pay $600,000 plus sanctions and be in contempt of court which comes with a warrant possibly, an arrest warrant because the things i said which they found him guilty of, i also have to pay and i'm protecting my child. and you could be the biggest trump supporter, a woman voting for trump, ask them, how do you feel about him having your young daughters legal name, address and identifiable information? there's no woman out there i can imagine would get that information up. they've got my address and look how quickly that happens, you think i'm going to give up the

other address, because sometimes she is with me and sometimes she is with her father, why would i do that? >> there's basically two impasses in terms of that money and the resolution of that defamation case and you paying the legal fees. one is you don't have the money to pay and two, they want you to give over that identifying information about your daughter.>> even if i had the money, it is not fair. why do i have to pay it? and i'm so happy for e. jean carroll but literally the same sentence, like liar, con job, she gets over $80 million and it cost me over $600,000, it is going to cost my partner his house, my daughter her privacy for the rest of her life? that is not fair.>> i feel like the trump movement has destroyed or tried to destroy a lot of people for posing a threat to donald trump or challenging him.

and there are millions of americans, if not tens of millions of americans who have a rooting interest in all of these various efforts to confront him and expose his behavior and hold them accountable for crimes or treachery or whatever. but the rooting interest doesn't help you, more than half the country is rooting for him being held accountable. the people who are in the middle of this confrontation are being terrorized and menaced and ruined. and overall, this system, i'm sorry to put this to you, but i feel like the system is unsustainable, unless the real life human people who are willing to stand up and speak the truth against him are themselves protected.>> you could be me, we could all be me, anybody out there, they are trying to seize property of people that i care about, that is not even mine to scare me. they are trying to bring my

daughter's life -- ruin my daughter's life before she is in the mac even has a chance to live it. and i have been fighting this by myself, even the people closest to me, my best friends, my partners, everyone else can take a break. my tour manager, my assistant, he has been the most with me but even he gets to take breaks, he gets to take his kids and his family to disneyland and not think about it. i'm the only person that every single day for the last six years, this has led into my life. some days are worse than others, some days i'm picking pellets out of my horses body and picking papers and sobbing because i miss my daughter and she is not safe when she is with me sometimes. and some days it is just things

i read on the internet, but every single day. even you, rachel, there has to be moments where you have got to check out for at least a minute. i have never had a day like that in over six years.>> your work life has been surveying the -- severely curtailed by this.>> same thing, the owner of the club got death threats. i'm from new orleans, but how many places are out there that i don't know about that are afraid to book me?>> how are you going to make enough money to live?>> i'm not, it is between legal fees and not being able to work, remember the trial got pushed, so i had taken off a bunch of time before. and it got extended, there were several months where i didn't do anything, i stopped doing my podcast because they were freaking out about everything i

said. i didn't get to tell them why i stopped talking to them because i didn't want anything i used to create more work for the prosecution basically. or i didn't want to be taken off the witness list for all the reasons i told you earlier. there's so many things. people being afraid to hire me, i hosted the tv show, and i'm starting to go back and do some stand up comedy and things like that. but, i have lost a lot more than i have made. mostly my peace and my daughter's privacy and time i will never get back with her.>> given that, are you worried about trump potentially be elected to a second term? particularly for you? >> yes. because i think that he will try to make even more of an example out of me. you know? and also, because his followers

will probably be even more bold thinking if they do something, they will pardon him.>> you said shortly after the verdict that you thought he should be sentenced to jail and community service, working for the less fortunate or being the volunteer punching bag at a women's shelter. do you still feel that way? >> yes, money is no object to him. if there is somebody else, finding a bunch of money could definitely teach them a lesson. you are talking about a man who was convicted of 34 -- how much was it, $100 million was given to him when he was found guilty. i wish i could be found guilty. i think taking away his

control/freedom with a jail sentence, would teach him the most, but he is still so used to being in control. it is not about locking him up, it is about taking away his control that would be more helpful in this case. making him do some community service especially with those people that he looks down upon so much.>> on the issue that was just mentioned of a potential arrest warrant for ms. daniels and the contempt of court review that is sought by his lawyers, we have confirmed there is an august 7th court hearing on these matters. as you heard from her a few moments ago, ms. daniels says she is not able to pay the $600,000 she has been ordered to pay. she is concerned about providing documents in the case that would require her to reveal personal information about her daughter. her lawyers have asked for a

confidentiality agreement before she hands over that information, trump's lawyer told the judge that ms. daniels should have to hand over the information now and afterwards she can ask the court for confidentiality agreement. the court sided with trump and his lawyers on that. on her gofundme page tonight, ms. daniels just posted this. this information is not only a violation of the child's privacy but has the potential of coming very real and immediate danger. in response to her own doxing and fearing for her daughter safety, stormy declined to provide those details unless a confidentiality agreement was granted. no mother should be forced to choose between protecting her innocent child and contempt. we have reached out to the council that is representing mr. trump in this matter, we have not heard back and we will let you know what we do here if we do hear from him. we will be back with the conclusion of my exclusive interview with stormy daniels right after this. that is

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>> so, in the middle of your testimony but with you not in the room because there was a recess, the judge calls the

lawyers up and the judge says to todd blanche, trump's defense lawyer, i understand your client is upset at this point that he is coercively audibly and he is shaking his head, and the jury can see that. the judge says, i'm speaking to you at the bench because i don't want to embarrass him. mr. blanche, i will talk to him. the judge, one time i noticed when ms. daniels was testifying about rolling up the magazine and presumably smacking your client and after that he shook his head and he looked down and later i think he was looking at you, later when we were talking about the prentice, he uttered a vulgarity and looked to you at this time, please talk to him during the break, todd blanche, i will. you weren't there for that exchange. what the judge is describing, did you see that?>> i tried not

to look at him because i just wanted to stay on point, not because i was afraid. you know, i shouldn't admit this, but if i had noticed, if i had seen or heard him saying she is lying, i don't know if i could have controlled myself.>> what would you have done?>> who knows. no person should have had to be there and to have him in open court when we are trying to follow the rules and be respectful, he was still disrespecting me and calling me a liar. i might have snapped and said something back, and then, that is what he wants.>> you wouldn't have been intimidated but you are worried you would have -- >> gone stormy. because i am not the same naove, young girl that was in

that room.>> what could the justice system and what could the people of this country have done better for you? what could have been done differently to give you more support so that this would not have caused the kind of ruination in your life it has caused? >> i should have been allowed to present my case like e. jean carroll was, because i would not be facing a $600 and dollar -- $600,000 judgment because i absolutely would have won. i don't need millions, i need to not owe him and i need to have peace and be able to work. and because of this situation, i need a safe place for my family. and my animals. and i don't know if i will ever have that because it just keeps happening.>> what you have experienced is something that is absolutely individual to you but it is also part of a pattern of people who confront

trump or tell the truth about things that hurt him because they don't reflect on him well, people get destroyed. and there is something wrong with us as a country for not being able to protect you for that. i cannot apologize on behalf of the country, that is not my job, but i want you and your families life to be better than it is and i want you to have more protection than you have and i hope you can get it. >> thank you, and i am prepared, and i will probably potentially lose everything and maybe even be arrested because i'm not giving up my daughter's personal information, and if that means i'm in contempt of court, i have done everything, i have told the truth, i have honored the subpoena, i have done everything they have asked me to do and this is the one thing, this is my line in the sand, this is my little girl.>> good luck.>> thank you.>> they

have not protected me and this is the one thing, this is my line in the sand, this is my little girl. you know, this interview surprised me in so many ways but where i landed with this, in these conversations with ms. daniels, in this very simple place which is that nobody is superhuman. real-life villains are not superhuman, we sometimes make them out to be but they are not, they are human beings with all the frailties and decency that every human being is born with, but real-life heroes aren't superhuman either. stormy daniels is certainly a symbol, she is a brand name, she is an indelible and inconsequential person in

american history, she will always be part of this trial by fire of the american principal that every american is subject to the rule of law. she is also a mom. she is also just a woman. and she has had six years of death threats and doxing and she is facing losing her house and is facing potential arrest on contempt charges for not, after all of that, for not handing over personal identifying information about her 13-year-old daughter. we checked that assertion from ms. daniels as well. looking at the court documents related to this case, she is facing contempt of court of the possible ruling that she is in contempt of court which comes with a possible arrest warrant and she is facing it because she is not filling out a document that is demanding that she hand over identifying information about her daughter including where her daughter can be found.

her daughter is 13 point she says she won't do it. what will happen to her? and who is protecting her? she is not part of any institution who has any sort of institutional defense. she is just a citizen. and no one is superhuman but you should not need to be superhuman in this country, to tell the truth about a powerful person. i have more ahead, stay with us. .

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>> what i'm saying is that her story is messy. it makes people uncomfortable to hear. it probably made some of you uncomfortable to hear, but that is the point, that is the display the defendant didn't want the american voter to see. in the simplest terms, stormy daniels, that is why your testimony was not just an amazing display but also american history the way it fits in to this. do you agree with the way they characterized you in this case? >> the prosecution? >> yes, the way he said it was functioned and how it related to this crime? >> yes, absolutely.>> as the prosecution said, her story is in many instances uncomfortable

to hear she describes it as uncomfortable to recount. but it is now indelibly etched into our american history, it is central to the first ever criminal conviction of an american president. its details were counted in court and the further details recounted in his interview tonight. they themselves are a somewhat searing insight into the personal behavior of an american president. but also, she is an indelible part of american history here because the targeting of her as a result of her testimony, her confrontation with him, the targeting of what has happened to her life because she is viewed by president trump as one of his enemies because of this testimony. the story of what happened to her because she has told the truth in this case, because she has testified in this case is a harrowing story of the kind of menace, the find -- kind of

physical menace that the trump movement uses against their perceived enemies. and that is one thing, when it is directed at people who are in relatively safe positions of power with resources and with structures around them that can protect them from the worst. it is something else when it is just an itemized human in the world trying to cope alone. and the targeting of the people who are hurt and menaced the most by the trump movement is something we have not yet figured out how to defend against this country. and it is not going to get better on its own. joining us now is nbc news presidential historian, michael, thank you for taking the time. let me ask your reaction to this interview, this is the first interview she has done after the trial, we thought the trial was done, maybe it isn't.

as a historian looking at this, what you think of it. >> well, she is a brave woman and i don't want to tie her immediately to american history but i almost can't help but do it because the founders and the early americans, we fought for independence from england so we had a system that was unlike england, no one could ever stand up to the king. you couldn't criticize the king without destroying your life. the whole idea of america was that this would be a society where we would benefit from everyone's criticism. so, the founders and the humblest person could stand up to a president of the united states or criticize him, he might not like it, but that person would not have their lives destroyed and that is what has happened to stormy daniels and obviously something has fallen short and it might be even worse now given the ruling by the supreme court yesterday that is going to make

the power imbalance between american presidents and our most modest citizens, that power imbalance is now probably tripled in the last two days.>> i've been thinking a lot about that ruling in light of this interview, it seems to me, and you studied these things much more, in much more depth, but i always felt like, well, i felt the basic idea of the united states and our constitutional republic is that we recognize the rights of man. the naturally given rights of man and we have set up a government that is to protect our rights, from each other and particularly from a ruler, from a government that would infringe on our rights. and the supreme court ruling is about taking away our protections, taking away our

rights to protect ourselves against a ruler who has just had his rights expanded. so that he can do stuff to us with impunity and we can no longer defend ourselves against it. and i think of it in terms of congress and in terms of the judiciary and in terms of all the institutions of our civic life. but, when i think about it as individual itemized humans, just flesh and blood people who don't have institutions around them, it feels like a complete inversion of the overall idea of american rights and the american ideal.>> yes, the supreme court is taking us backwards in that respect. you and i have talked a lot about watergate and one good resolve of the watergate scandal and nixon's departure and the reform laws that were passed by congress later on, the idea was that we would never again have a situation that applied to too many presidents between 1930 and 1974, where they abused the

irs, they abused the fbi, they used the power of government to go after colonists to criticize them, or people who got in their way. they would have bank executives in the hometown of the person who had done this, go after the person and take their mortgage away. it's what stormy daniels was reminding me of when she was telling about how much she has gone through. the point is, we should have a judicial system, a supreme court that protects the week, not the strong. instead, in the last 48 hours, the supreme court through its non-wisdom in my view has decided to give even more power to the strongest person in this society, president of the united states, and also strong people around that person. that is not the way it is supposed to be. it's not progress.>> and it is

something we need to compensate for as a country. if the courts are not going to do it, then we have to find other ways as a civic entity, to protect the people among us who are in the most danger. >> because the government will trample on our liberties and do corrupt things and nobody will be able to stand up to it. >> michael beschloss , thank you for this perspective, thank you for being here tonight, it is a pleasure to have you, michael.>> thank you, rachel. yl and we both sleep better. and stay married. hi, i'm kevin and i've lost 152 pounds on golo. and we both sleep better. i decided to give golo a try. taking the release supplement i noticed a change within the first week and each month the weight just kept coming off. sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. with golo you can keep the weight off.

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after the supreme court's ruling on that immunity case this week, trump and his counsel moved quickly to try to get his 34 felony convictions in new york thrown out and he was supposed to be sentenced next week but today the judge announced that he will delay sentencing until september. i do want to show you the letter that the judge wrote to the attorneys announcing this. he said the matter is adjourned to september 18 of 2024 for the imposition of sentence if such is still necessary. and when he says, if such is still necessary, what he means is if the supreme court decision doesn't effectively wipe out that juries unanimous guilty verdict against trump on 34 felony counts. it is an open question. joining us now is the former assistant district attorney and the manhattan das office. thank you for being here.

>> i am glad to be here. >> i will first ask you that this interview with stormy daniels we set this in motion when we believed that trump's new york trial in which she testified was over. and now clearly it isn't with this sentencing delay and the judge entertaining a new motion to throw out the case given what happened at the supreme court and i have to ask you, is there anything about this interview or ms. daniels talking publicly about her testimony which could have any bearing on the trial and the weight it resolves? ask >> i don't think so. the trial is over. her testimony is complete and she is a free-agent. there is nothing that she said basically that didn't detract from the transcript and she edits more detail but nothing that would harm the case. >> if the judge entertains this

motion from the defense to set aside the verdict, with the new york district attorney's office then have the option of retrying the case and using a different selection of evidence to try to prove the same criminal charges but without reference to official acts by trump? >> assuming that the judge grants the motion to set aside the verdict, which he probably should not because i don't believe these are official acts, the tweets and this money, but assuming he did, then the case would have to be retried and the das office would obviously exclude those tweets the hicks testimony, if the judge decided it was an official act, which i don't think you will. if he did, they would have to retry it without that. that if you exclude that testimony, is a mountain of evidence that points to guilt. you would need that evidence.

that would be the argument quite frankly that the da will make in their responsiveness motion to set aside the verdict that there was nothing prejudicial if they were deemed official acts, which they are not. but if they were, if you took them out, there is still a mountain of evidence. >> the way it would work and forgive my ignorance on this because i am not a lawyer. but if some of the evidence was determined or argued that some of that was relevant to his official acts as president, you couldn't extricate that evidence and leave the jury's verdict intact? would need to re-present all of the evidence minus those things to a new jury and get a new verdict? you have to do that from day one again? >> i don't think so. i think the judge, if you determined these were official acts, and i will say it again,

i don't think they are, but if you were to determine that, he could also determine, you know what, there was such a mountain of evidence that even if you took these acts out, the jury would have still found guilt. so often the cases are reversed on appeal because presidential evidence was in that was so prejudicial and denied the defendant the right to a fair trial. the court of appeals in new york reversed harvey weinstein's conviction on that basis. but often they find that evidence was a judicial and harmless, so no need to reverse the conviction, which could happen in this case. >> harmless error. we all have to learn. the trump era in american politics, we all have to learn to be many lawyers or learn all the jargon and language and learn how all of this works and we shouldn't have to learn this criminal law to follow politics, but this is where we are. catherine christian, i do really appreciate your being here to help us put these pieces together. thank you. >> you are welcome.

>> we will be right back. stay with us.

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that will do it for me tonight for this special edition of the rachel maddow show and i appreciate your having me on a night i am not usually here. but now it is time for what you are waiting for, the 11th hour with stephanie. after