we're the only nation on the earth founded on an idea, not ethnicity, not geography, not

anything else, on an idea. now, decades later, we must look at ourselves and ask the question, will we stand for freedom again? will we stand for democracy? will we stand together as americans? i believe we will and we can. >> how moving. that was part of president joe biden's message at the fourth of july celebration on the white house south lawn yesterday, talking about how america is an idea. donald trump had his own ideas on how he would celebrate the fourth of july. he used a holiday message to once again air grievances. in a series of independent posts, the president barely mentioned america. starting off by writing, "happy fourth of july to all, including our highly incapable president who uses prosecutors to go after political opponents. usa." in total, trump mentioned

america one time in his fourth of july posts. will will shock you, only when promoting himself, by saying, "make america great again." good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, july 5th. we have the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton. and "usa today"'s susan page. the western world is waking up to news of a landslide victory. this is a massive victory. the united kingdom's labor party in yesterday's general election, they were swept into power. nbc reports that with some of the votes still being counted, the labour party secured 412 seats in parliament. that is well above the 326 seats needed for a majority. meanwhile, the conservative party has been reduced to the lowest seat total in its very, very long history.

just 120 seats. this morning, keir starmer is going to be appointed the next prime minister. earlier in london, starmer spoke to the crowd about what's next. >> country first, party second isn't a slogan. it's the guiding principle everything we have done and must keep on doing. on the economy, on national security, on protecting our borders. the british people had to look us in the eye and see that we can serve their interest. that work doesn't stop now. it never stops. the changes we've made are permanent, irreversible, and we must keep going. we ran as a changed labour party, and we will govern as a changed labour party. >> moments ago, outside 10 downing street, the now outgoing

prime minister, rishi sunak, acknowledged defeat and apologized to the citizes of the uk. take a look. >> to the country, i would like to say, first and foremost, i am sorry. i have given this job my all, but you have sent a clear signal that the government of the united kingdom must change. and yours is the only judgment that matters. this is a difficult da at the end of a number of difficult days, but i leave this job honored to have been your prime minister. this is the best country in the world, and it is thanks entirely to you, the british people, the true source of all our achievements, our strengths, and our greatness. thank you. >> for trump fans out there, let's -- that is what you call, are you ready for it, you ready? because i know we don't have it here in the united states. you have no idea what it is called.

that's called a peaceful transfer of power. actually, that's what we had in the united states of america from the late 1700s until the year 2020, when donald trump refused to do it. see, it's better that way. it's better that way because you actually let the voters decide. that's what democracies, constitutional republics are all about. well, he had a very bad day. liz truss, remember her? she actually lost her seat. her cabbage lost an adjoining parliamentary seat nearby. all in all, bad day for liz truss. let's bring in the president emeritus on the council foreign relations richard haass. zany, let's talk about the

historic nature of this election. it's not like the uk was discovered, like, after leisure suits hit the scene. uk has been around for a very long time. the tories have been around for a very long time. when you say things like, this is the tories, this is the conservative's worst showing ever, that's just breathtaking. talk about it, and talk about what led up to it and what it means. >> you're right. this was a really, really bad result for the tories. it was a landslide victory for labour. we haven't quite had all the votes counts, but they have 412. the tories were down to about 121. their worst result out of 650 seats in parliament. i think what this really was was a collective shout by the british people, we want the tories out. people voted against the tories much more than they did enthusiastically for labour. if you look at what happened, labour's overall share of the vote actually wasn't that

dramatically different. what happened, people voted tactically. people voted for the party in their constituency most likely to beat the tories. this was a terrible day for the tories. after 14 years of tory government, there was one clear message from britain, we've had enough of these people. we want them out. >> you know, richard haass, you go back and talk about how much can change in politics, how quickly. of course, it's one of the things i'm saying when democrats are, like, ready to jump off a cliff, when everyone i talked to over the past week. you know, a week is american po prime minister said britain politics. let's say five years ago, when boris johnson ran for re-election, you remember he won and all the tori strongholds across the north -- in all of those labour strongholds across the north.

it looked like the conservatives were rewriting the map. a lot of talk about what was happening in the united states was happening there and that it was going to change forever. five years later, johnson's tories completely wiped out. >> absolutely. it's one of the characteristics of a parliamentary system, is that it's less difficult to affect wholesale change because you have a single vote. you vote nationally, and it has all sorts of repercussions. as zanny pointed out, what is interesting about the vote, if you add up the tories and the reform movement, the conservatives were pretty come competitive with labour. characteristic of the british voting system. but your point is exactly right, joe. it's a little more difficult to bring that about here because we have all the separate elections for congress. the other thing is where you

began. i had the same reaction you did. the concession speech by the outgoing prime minister had grace notes. he was generous toward his successor. he talked about how remarkable the country of britain was. someone such as himself, given his roots in india. he talked about his daughter lighting the candles at 10 downing street. it was gracious comments, and i found it poignant as an american. how we no longer have the grace notes, shall we say, in american politics. >> you know, not only peaceful transfer of power, but how fast do they do these things? the new prime minister poised to take over. zanny, let me ask you. we heard the new prime minister say he'd be leading a changed labour party. what does that mean? what do we expect? what do you expect to see from this new government on issues like the economy and immigration? how big a change are brits in for? >> well, he has, first of all, really dramatically changed the

labour party. the last election in 2019, the one richard was referring to that boris johnson won so overwhelmingly, was against a labor party led by a far left radical, jeremy corbyn, who wanted to renationalized. he was a very, very left-wing guy. keir starmer has completely transformed his party, ruthlessly and effectively transformed his party. having transformed his party into a center-left party, he is determined to bring competent and effective functioning of government to running the country. what his main priority is, and he said it again and again, is to boost britain's growth rate. british economy, unlike the u.s. economy, has been barely growing. productivity is stagnant here, the single biggest problem the uk has. the question is, is he going to be radical enough to do what needs to be done to really boost the british economy? that's things like changing the planning laws so it is easier to build infrastructure, easier to

build houses. doing kind of fairly big, structural things, which require a degree of boldness and radicalism. we've seen it in how keir starmer transformed his party, but we haven't really seen it -- he hasn't laid out a bold agenda. he has bold aspirations. is he actually going to use this enormous majority he's got to do the dramatic things that need to be done so that the uk economy is kickstarted and it gl grows faster again. >> that's the question. what is the impact, richard haass, of this election on getting the british economy moving again? >> look, he's stated he's not going to revisit the brexit question. that is all the books permanently. i think he'll have a closer relationship with the eu, which will help a little bit. in order to win the election, labour was quite, i guess the word i'd use, is cryptic about what it'd actually do.

it didn't want to put forward specifics, less it alienate some potential voters. i think the one area they'll try to make a big difference in is housing. if you saw what happened in the stock exchange this morning, a lot of companies associated with building had a pretty good morning. i think that'll be their big approach, is to get that going. beyond that, again, i don't think you'll see anything radical. this is a centrist labour party, and i think they're going to be careful. they've got enough of a majority, they don't have to do it in the first couple months. they're pretty safe for the term. my guess is you're going to see a gradual rollout of policies. again, probably continued integration of britain with the west, with the united states, with europe obviously very close to nato. in some ways, you're going to have britain much more, i guess i'd say, more familiar to what

americans would think. >> yeah. boy, what a long, long move, also, in the labour party from jeremy corbyn to keir starmer. starmer is a centrist, a moderate, and a steady as she goes kind of guy. you're not going to see any quick movements from him in policy or personally. one more foreign policy issue before we get to american politics, richard. the white house is calling the latest cease-fire proposal from hamas a, quote, breakthrough. senior biden administration official told reporters yesterday that the group's response is fully consistent with the framework deal that was approved by the united nations security council last month, which they picked up from president biden. president biden also spoke with the israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu over the phone yesterday about finalizing that deal. senior white house official tells nbc news negotiations are expected to resume in qatar in

the coming days. if hamas is finally moving toward this deal that biden proposed to the uk and the uk adopted, why is it, richard, and might we have, if not peace at hand, at least a cease-fire at hand? >> well, i think hamas, you know, would obviously like to have an end to major israeli operations. israel is running out of large military targets in gaza, joe. there is growing pressure, continuing pressure to get the hostages home. i also think, joe, the israelis now reached the point where their policy toward gaza, and i don't mean to use unattractive wording, is almost like a maintenance situation. they want to keep the lid on there. the israelis are far more repock reoccupied with hezbollah in the north and a gaza-like situation in the west bank. a story that hasn't got an lot of attention in this country. we're no longer talking about

intifadas in the west bank, about kids with rocks. we're talking about growing numbers of groups that modelled themselves on hamas and are increasingly involved in armed confrontation with israeli settlers and the armed defense forces. the last thing the israelis want is a three-front war. they want to focus on hezbollah. they want to gird their loins for what could come in the west bank. they like the idea of turning down the temperature in gaza. >> thank you, richard, so much. greatly appreciate your insights on foreign policy. now, if you could only provide us insights on why the new york yankees cannot win a baseball game. >> joe, it's not the way to begin the day after uly 4th. we're all americans here. focusing on the yankees swoon. at least talk about the knicks. there's possibilities there. >> yankees make me sad. the red sox make me winning.

red sox are winning, and the yankees aren't. perfect time for a series between the yankees and red sox this weekend. you'll probably sweep us. there ya go. thank you so much, richard haass. what's that? >> if things go badly this weekend, i look forward to not seeing you monday. >> all right. i look forward to seeing you, as well, richard haass. thank you so much. during a meeting with democratic governors on wednesday, president biden suggested he might start limiting events after 8:00 p.m. so he can get more sleep. one source tells nbc news the president was asked about his health, and he said he was doing fine. adding, quote, it's just my brain. the governors took that as a joke, as did biden campaign chair, saying, "biden was clearly making a joke." he also said, "all kidding aside." in a wisconsin interview that aired yesterday, president biden acknowledged that he had a poor debate performance but defended his candidacy. >> i had a bad night.

i had a bad night. and the fact of the matter is that, you know -- i screwed up, i made a mistake. but i learned from my father, when you get knocked down, you just get back up. get back up. and, you know, we're going to win this election. we're going to beat donald trump like we did in 2020. we're going to beat him again. but we need all of you to get this done. all of you. look, i came back from -- i was in the situation where -- why i didn't have a good debate. that's 90 minutes on stage. look at what i've done in 3.5 years. >> yeah, i'll tell ya what, so many democrats on the phone nonstop since that debate. there's panic. no doubt, there's panic all

around. i said eight days ago that the president needed to consider getting out. said we needed to give it time, see what's going to happen. i think we're still there. i mean, it is july the 5th. this happened eight days ago. decision time is not upon us yesterday. though it may be coming soon, we should first honor a man who was first on the ballot 54 years ago, by giving him the time and the space to make his decision before we tell him that we've made ours. this week, there are going to be a lot more polls, more interviews. there's going to be a nato summit, and we're going to have more information to take in. now, the test of our democracy and of our citizenship is to contemplate different scenarios that could happen if joe biden decides to get out of the race.

but the first is to see where the man is who got all of the democratic delegates in primary season this past year. we do actually have a democracy still in america. this is not a reality show. he cannot make up things as we go along. that's what the other side does. we must instead watch with open hearts and open minds. and we can't be trumpian and yield all of our desires to our dear leader. facts are coming in and will keep coming in over the past week. we stipulate right here and right now that trump's republicans are not serious about their politics. they're not serious about their party. they're not serious about this republic. unfortunately, last week's debate reinforced that sorry truth more than ever. because, get this, you probably

missed this with all the whining that was going on out there over the past week. as bad as joe biden was that night, and he was historically bad, donald trump was even worse with his lies. and if you saw any of the polls that came out that had joe biden losing a few points, you may have noticed, as "the new york times" wrote, that independent voters took notice and that donald trump actually lost independent voters in that debate. i find that staggering. now, republicans and the far-right allies in the media are in meltdown mode, saying i told you so. they're accusing the press of a coverup. before they get too self-righteous, let's remember, republicans long idolized an aging republican president whose decline was so bad, it let an

incoming chief of staff, howard baker, to commission a study of the 25th amendment in case they needed to use it on ronald reagan. so please, please, republicans, please, right-wing media outlets, spare us your moral indignation over a man who had a really, really terrible debate, but a man who has been the most effective president over the past 3 1/2 years, the most effective president in passing bipartisan legislation this century. the most effective president in strengthening the dollar over the past 50 years. the most successful president when it comes to expanding our alliances, expanding nato, expanding our defense reach all around china.

spare us your shock and your indignation. 3 1/2 years and a terrible debate. what democrats need to find out this week and what democrats need to worry about this week are not what the newspapers that were lying about joe biden for years before this past week say. they need to look to joe biden. he needs to answer the question, is he capable of moving forward? he knows he needs to answer that question. he's answered it in interviews. needs to answer it in press conferences. he needs to answer the nato summit. he needs to answer it in everything that he does. as for the rest of us, and that's democrats, that's independents, that's republicans of good faith, let's be smart. let's take a deep breath, and let's understand, it's only july

the 5th. such an historic decision should not be made in haste. now, listen, the democratic party is not my party. i'm an independent. but it is the only party that is standing between our democracy, our great constitutional republic, and an automatic thug who has promised to be dictator on day one. so, democrats, you better get this right. you'd better think through it. you better take your time. you better take a deep breath, and you better get this right. if you do, america will follow you. most americans do not want the other guy to be elected president of the united states. don't put them in a position where they feel like they have to vote for the tyrant by default. do take the time necessary,

though, to get this right. because american democracy is riding on it, and the whole world is watching what you're doing. good luck. godspeed, john glenn. let's bring in msnbc contributor mike barnicle, reverend al sharpton, susan page, and zanny. still with us. mike, i'll start with you. i swear to god, it has been like -- it's been like therapy. i've been on the phone, unfortunately, taking a lot of calls over the past week. i know you have, too. it's like therapy sessions, talking these people down off the ledge. they need the answer. they need it right now. they bounce back and forth. they don't realize that it is july the 5th. they don't remember, maybe, 1988, when michael dukakis was

up 17 points over george h.w. bush in august. >> yeah. you know, joe, we'll get an answer from joe biden sooner rather than later, i would think. this is a man who, as you indicated, has been in the business of politics for over half a century. he has been on the ballot multiple times. he's been in multiple debates over the year. he can read polls. he is pretty good at the business of politics, as proven by his career. he knows what's going on. he knows the depth of trouble. he knows people saw something they cannot unsee. he also knows something that apparently the biden administration hasn't fully explained to the american public. you know, i was thinking about this over the weekend. there were several great elements of history and different presidents that moved the economy and the country

forward. there was eisenhower's highway act in the 1950s that created suburbs, and there was a boom in the economy and a boom in the population. there was jfk and the moon program that changed things for all time in terms of technology and research and progress for america. there was lyndon johnson, on july 2nd, 1964, all those years ago, signing the first really effective civil rights improved the country, made people feel better about the country. the biden administration passed the inflation reduction act and chips act. i'm told by people who know more about economics than i do, that it'll change our economy, modernize it, make it more widely spread in terms of both the country, red states specifically will benefit from it more than blue states will. employment is on the rise.

it's at record numbers. more people will go to work today than any other time in american history. that's the biden administration. now, the decision on what he does going forward is his and his alone, in concert with his family, clearly. he will make the right decision for the country and for himself. >> yup. no doubt, he's got a great record. there is no doubt about it. you can go through it and compare that record domestically, legislatively, foreign policy wise to anybody else's, and certainly all of the numbers far surpass what donald trump did over those four years. donald trump lied the whole time. real quick, you have to stop right here and just say, one of the most remarkable things i've seen in all the polling, and the white house was trying to tell me this the night of the debate while they were in shock. they said, the dial groups show independents really, really broke away from donald trump. i said, are they spinning me, are they not spinning me?

"new york times" yesterday, incredible, biden lost two, three points in most polls, but independents actually broke away from donald trump toward joe biden. that's how much they were turned off by seeing this guy. you'll notice, too, for all the talk about joe biden being hidden, 8:00 and all of this other stuff, you notice donald trump has kept his head underground politically since this debate. his staff is scared to death of having their old man go out and say crazy things, to get him out on stages. they know donald trump forgets if we had world war ii or not. he forgets who the current president of the united states is. he thinks he is running against barack obama and has beaten him. he thinks he is running against barack obama again. sometimes he tries to get to the end of a sentence and sort of kind of goes off into left field, into the pasture.

again, they're hiding donald trump right now. they don't want donald trump to get behind a microphone because the less he says, the safer they believe they are. reverend al, another thing the biden team needs to explain still, what exactly what happened thursday night? he talked about being exhausted. i'll tell you, again, these right-wingers who go, oh, there has been a press coverup. the same people that basically parrot russian talking points on their little newsletters, people like that and others who always make sort of the cottage industry out of attacking biden. oh, he was always this bad off. you and i spend a lot of time with the president. i spend as much time with the president probably over the past six, nine months as anybody in the media.

maybe somebody spent some more. i doubt it. i never saw anything approaching this. i spent three hours with the guy i think back in march, april, and we talked foreign policy for three hours. he walked me around the white house. he walked me up five flights of stairs. he took me up to the ball comy. we talked policy everywhere we went. i left there and talked to mika. i said, man, this guy, you know, reminded me of your dad. he is on top of it, man. he is on top of it. i'd ask tough questions about russia and ukraine, about the peace process. what bill burns was doing. i'd ask about netanyahu. we went through the west bank, what all the options were. i saw none of this. the thing is, people should know this about me by now, if i had, i would have said, i love you, mr. president, i'm going to have to tell people tomorrow on the show. just like i did last friday. i always say it. just like donald trump, people didn't like it. mika and i said trump was going to win. trump could win in 2016.

and so i say this to say, i've spent a lot of time with him. i've been on the phone with him. you have, as well. even that, i have no idea what happened thursday night. i saw none of that in all of the time i've spent with him and all of the time i've talked to him. i'm curious your reflections on a guy that has been in the oval with him and been at the white house with him a good bit. >> i certainly agree with you. i've spent a lot of time with this president in person, on the phone. i probably spend more time with him than even what president obama, who i was privileged to spend time with. i never saw any signs of this. i think the biggest surprise for me watching the debate is it was a joe biden i had never seen. i totally agree, there needs to be a real, concrete explanation of what happened on thursday night. i also think where the democrats are not bringing up the right

point is they need to force trump's party and trump to explain the lies he told on thursday night. there's no real pressure on going down the 30 lies, according to "the new york times," and say, explain to us how you justify this lie, one. this lie, two. all the way through. he should be having to respond to the lies he told as much as we are having joe biden respond to clearly a bad night, at best, that he did in terms of his performance. the other thing in the middle of this, joe, that you and i talked about during the week, let's not forget the devastating decision the supreme court made in the middle of all of this that is a real threat to the democratic principles of this country. so we can't get all caught up on whether joe biden is going to work after 8:00 and forget that they have, during the week of

the fourth of july, there was a revolution where, in 1776, the country declared independence from monarchy. they moved us back, this supreme court, three appointed by donald trump, toward a monarchy, saying that a president can get full immunity for what he calls official acts. that's a bigger threat than all of this. >> well, yeah. i'm so glad you brought up, too, about the working until 8:00 part. the ridiculous thing about that, susan page, is, i mean, republicans would have loved donald trump to work. like, work until 6:00. work until 5:00. remember those schedules? executive time, executive time. he sat in his dining room off the oval office and watched cable news most of the day. they couldn't get him to work. again, it's rich, republicans

complaining that joe biden is only going to be working until 8:00 p.m. at night. again, that said, we talked -- rev and i talked about the time we have spent with him and the fact that we still are trying to figure out exactly what happened on thursday night. i think, again, you look at the independents that are breaking biden's way because of all of trump's lies. think if he can do that effectively, if he can do it on george stephanopoulos or another interview, that could be roadway a reset. >> no more loyal democrat than nancy pelosi. she raised a concern, was this an episode or is it a condition? no matter how well biden does with george stephanopoulos, the news conference after nato this next week, it seeps to me he must answer that question there. people have to understand, people like you who have spent

time with joe biden need to understand exactly what was at play there. you have to have some kind of medical explanation, maybe an independent medical examination. i'm not sure how that would work. but that'd reassure people. that would answer the question that nancy pelosi posed. you know, we hear editorial comment from outlets like "the economist," zanny, saying, i believe there is an editorial, "why joe biden must withdraw." tell us why you came to the conclusion. >> for a start, we argued in 2022 that he should be a one-term president and should not run again. it was something, in large part, because of his age. that was massively reinforced last week. i watched the debate like millions of americans and was shocked, shocked to see a befuddled, old man struggling to recall words and facts. you're right, maybe this was an episode, but the president has

not really been made available to very many people in informal settings or settings where he can really with questioned. i think, like many americans, we were just shocked at that performance. that doesn't detract at all from his accomplishments. i completely agree with you all, that his presidency incredibly effective. he passed tremendous legislation. many americans were shocked by the performance, as we were. now, we're thinking about the next four years. everyone knows a frail, older person. unfortunately true, the passage of time goes one way. the mental acuity only goes one way. that is the reason we were -- we wrote what we did, which was pretty tough, i admit. that's because this is the toughest job in the world. you can't run a presidency on auto. you can't put off an international crisis because the president is having a bad day.

yes, there may be a fulsome explanation for what happened last thursday, but unless there is manifestly, over the next coming weeks a vibrant joe biden, president joe biden who can convince americans that, not just that he is capable today, but he is capable to be president for the next four years, i think that's a really tall order. there is, unfortunately, whether it is because of, you know, loyalty to him or, frankly, because of kind of cowardice and complacency, there is unwillingness in the democratic party to acknowledge that. this is not about detracting from joe biden's accomplishments. he has been, as i say, a very, very good president, but that does not necessarily mean he is the right person to defeat donald trump, which is, as you say, joe, the most important task at hand. and i think there is a bit of, you know, an unwillingness amongst people on the left, amongst democrats, to acknowledge that. it's not undermining president biden to come clean about that

and to say, actually, this man has been an extremely good president, but he is not the best person to lead the country for the next four years. >> well, that is the debate that is raging inside the democratic party. all corners of the democratic party. zanny, thank you so much. what exciting times, reporting on just the political earthquake in britain. great to have you here. thank you so much. >> thank you. all right. coming up, the man behind project 2025, the right-wing road map for a second trump presidency is raising new concerns with a cryptic threat about a second american revolution. dear lord. we're going to be taking a look at his remarks coming up next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder

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welcome back to "morning joe." former u.s. attorney joyce vance has a piece for "substack" tide titled, "bloodless if the left allows it to be." people talking about the second american revolution, good luck whipping people into a frenzy. i don't think they're willing to give up the friday night football, the saturday s.e.c.

football, nfl on sunday. taking their kids to school. i mean, again, this is just some right-wing fever dream, and, yet, they are obsessed with it. obsessed with trying to start a civil war or divide america while america is stronger economically, militarily, culturally, than it's ever been. joyce writes about the head of the heritage foundation and the architect of project 2025, kevin roberts, who recently suggested there's going to be a new american revolution. listen to his comments from earlier this week. >> the left has taken over our institutions. the reason their apoplectic right now. the reason so many anchors on msnbc, for example, are losing their minds daily, is because our side is winning. and so i come full circle on this response and just want to

encourage you with some substance. that we are in the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. >> yeah, okay. that's kevin? kevin roberts, is that right? first of all, kev, i'm not losing my mind. i'm actually talk -- you know what i talk about, kevin? i talk about how great america is. i say it all the time. all the time. talked about how great our military is. i get sick and tired of people like you trashing our military. talking about how weak our military is. it's not weak. our military is stronger than it's ever been. the communist chinese are scared of us. russia is scared of us. our enemies are scared of us. i'm not talking down america. i'm actually very pullbullish o america. like warren buffett after the 2008 collapse, warren buffett said, only a fool would bet against the united states of america.

i believed that then. i believed it my entire life. i believe it now. you're the one talking about revolution. why are you so angry, kevin? why are you losing your mind? america is great. we're strong militarily, strong economically, we're strong culturally. we're strong more culturally than ever before. there are some things we need to improve on. we need to do a better job building community. be great, kevin, if you'd focus on that, building community and not trying to divide people but unite people, bring them together. i'd love to see the church pews filled back up. that would provide some community, as well. this whole idea that we need a new revolution. i mean, i know it is great fundraising, but it is just b.s.

as far as people on mississippi -- msnbc freaking out, i'm not freak out. it's not because we're losing. let me get some iced tea here, kevin. i'm going to drink to you. ah, man, i'll have to give up sweet tea one day, but that day is not today. kevin, just a little reminder, trump republicans lost in 2017. trump republicans lost in 2018. trump republicans lost in 2019. trump republicans lost in 2020. trump republicans lost in 2021. trump republicans lost in 2022. trump republicans lost in 2023. and it's trump republicans talking about revolution. because you can't win at the ballot box. please, who's freaking out?

i didn't see people at msnbc, like, starting riots on january 6th. i didn't see people at msnbc bear spraying cops or crushing cops' heads inside of doors. or defecating. no, that's your side, kev. that's your side. the so-called hostages, as donald trump calls them. you're the ones who have been freaking out, so i don't know why you're so angry. try reading the red letters in the new testament. take a deep breath. it's going to be okay. we're not going to have a second american revolution. we're not going to have a civil war. americans, they're okay. they're okay. they respect each other too much to do that. i want to bring in joyce now.

she joins us. she's co-host of "sisters-in-law" podcast. also with us, special correspondent of "vanity fair" and host of "fast politics" podcast, molly jong-fast. both probably up after watching fireworks. she's an msnbc political analyst. joyce, this is a frightening document. i understand. i mean, i hear it is really frightening. what i want to know is, is this a fundraising gimmick, or do they want to fundamentally remake american democracy in a way that's more authoritarian? >> it looks like the latter, joe. the context for the comments mr. roberts made is project 2025. he heads the heritage foundation. the heritage foundation has produced this immense document

talking about retuning america's values. it is a very small vision of america. it is an america that would be just for a slice of our population rather than this inclusive notion that america is a country where everybody can have their own beliefs and we can live our lives consistent with our beliefs, so long as we don't infringe on other people's values. this is a sort of christian nationalist approach that is really, in many ways, the second revolution that you're talking about as being something that americans don't want. this is an effort to force that on other americans. >> molly, when we look at the 2025 and this guy, roberts, and saying it will be bloodless if the left allows that, which, in and of itself is very dangerous language. >> yeah. >> who knows what it means? but when we says we're winning, are they winning, and is that not something that should cause

a real pause for most americans and a challenge to the democratic party, to get their stuff together? because if these guys are advancing and it's not just some hype statement, it's a threat to american democracy, and all of the interest we've fought to make progress over the last 50 years. >> absolutely. project 2025 is a threat to american democracy, and i think that should be the top line here. the other thing i think is really important when you talk about project 2025 is that project 2025 is wildly unpopular. a lot of this stuff is not popular, and joe was talking about this earlier. the problem trump is having is not that he is not a charismatic guy. the problem he is having is that the republican party's platform of what little is left is not popular, right? i mean, what is interesting about 2025, and i've written about it and i've, you know, read about it, it really is

really important, but there are things in it, like regulate in vitro fertilization. produced children for many, many people in this country. they want to regulate it, and one of the central tenants of 2025, the heritage foundation, is that a fertilized egg is a human being. >> yeah. you know, it is -- joyce, what's pretty remarkable here is how unpopular these ideas all are. if you just look at the numbers. of course, 70% of americans for a very long time were against the overturning of roe. you look at other cultural issues that republicans, conservatives like me when i was one, we used to win on this stuff. we used to win on social issues. now, republicans are wildly

unpopular. you look at background checks. they're the 10% against background checks. the rest of america is the 90% who wants universal background checks. look at red flag laws. they are the 20% against red flag laws. the rest of america is the 80% who wants red flag laws. i could keep going down the list, but these are extraordinarily unpopular things. as far as christian nationalism goes, whatever, they like to talk generally about values. you know, you and i both born and raised in the bible belt. like i said, i think it's -- i do think it is a real problem. i think our church pews are emptying out, but i would never in a million years think it's the government's job to get people back to church or to get

people back to -- i mean, that's pastors. that's communities. that's parishioners. so, again, this view that america lost its way and only we can get america back to where it is by pushing wildly unpopular laws and regulations seems clueless to say the least. >> isn't that the entire point here? as americans, we're entitled to matters of conscience, whether we go to church, whether we go to a synagogue, what form of religion, if any, we choose to practice. that's a matter of conscience. matters of policy, we decide those in elections in this country. we vote, and then we agree in advance to abide by the will of the majority. that is what project 2025

rejects. this notion, the revolution can be bloodless if the left allows it to be, it's nothing less than a threat to american democracy and should take it seriously. the problem is it is easy to set this aside as comments made by one man, but these are the comments made by the man who helms the heritage foundation, the man who wrote the introduction to project 2025 which sets forth this very dark vision of america that's not the america that many of us would want our children to grow up in. it removes those choices from voters. joe, here is one great example. molly talked about ivf. there are many others. there are folks, and i have a lot of friends who are conservative republicans who believe in small government, who aren't huge fans of the department of education. that's a policy matter we can all debate. but one of the points that project 2025 makes would be an end to programs like head start and a phased out termination of funding for kids with special

education needs. i don't think that you'll find a majority of americans or even a strong minority who would support that sort of change in our society. we need more support for people, especially from those who would advocate against abortion, right? if you're going to force women to have children, well, we should at least provide for them. that's why it is so important for people to understand what's in project 2025, which seems to be the functional equivalent of trump's plans for the next 2.0 trump election if he wins again. >> all right. joyce vance, thank you so much, as always. coming up, it was another tough day for the new york yankees after they got swept by the reds. pablo torre joins us next to celebrate. actually, no, he's not happy. take on the day. with taltz, up to 90% of patients saw a significant improvement of their psoriasis plaques.

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i had former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, pree it is sp brabrarar joining us. plus, we have the controversial around the hot dog eating contest. we have the yankees and so much more. we're back in 90 seconds. n 90 ss

welcome back to "morning joe." the view of new york city. looking a little grim this morning. a little fogged in right after the fourth of july celebrations last night. hope you had a great fourth of

july. hope you have a great fourth of july weekend coming up. of course, a staple of the fourth of july celebrations across america are nathan's annual fourth of july hot dog eating contest, and they have a new champion. patrick bertoletti won the contest on coney island, eating 58 hot dogs and buns in ten minutes. it is a personal record for bertoletti. doesn't compare to the all-time record of chestnut of 76. he won the contest 16 times and wasn't at this year's event because of his partnership with the rival brand, impossible foods. chestnut did, however, take part in a different challenge in el paso, texas, competing against soldiers at an army base. the soldiers ate a combined total of 49 hot dogs. i don't know what's wrong with that guy. chestnut says he is leaving the door open to participate in

nathan's hot dog eating contest in the future but says he'll need an apology if he is ever going to be able to work with major league eating contests again. with us now, the host of "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media. espn's pablo torre. anything to say about joey chestnut? hard to watch that. >> i want america to know this. it's the first athlete i ever interviewed. i was an intern at "sports illustrated." i covered his first nathan's hot dog eating contest, and i always thought about him specifically on july 5th, more than july 4th. he needs to reckon with what's happened to him. i don't want to be in his home on the day after this happens. >> yeah, no. >> maybe the only example of somebody defeating america's military we can safely celebrate on today's show. but it is bad. the fact he got signed to impossible foods, joe, which is, of course, the fake hot dog,

vegan-friendly, you know, brand, has created a whole bunch of google searches that i have seen and heard, "where is joey chestnut?" will he return? in one year's time, we'll find out if america's long national nightmare will be over, i suppose. >> thank you for giving a perfect segue. where is joey chestnut needs us to, where are the new york yankees? gluttony for punishment. >> what's happened? >> truly almost un-american civil warhead lines. the reds swept the yankees. the reds of cincinnati hadn't swept the yankees since the 1976 world series. for those keeping score at home, as we watch this. >> wow. >> the yankees, i come on here and i do my best to remind everybody, look, they got 54

wins. they're still in this. they're one of the best teams in baseball. and every time i come here, i look at, okay, how have they been doing the last ten games? right, they're 2-8 right now. the reds handled them quite easily. this doesn't happen very often. they had not been swept, the yankees, in three games at all this season. >> pablo, what is the problem, man? is it pitching? >> not great. >> is it hitting? what's the problem with the yankees right now? >> they have the greatest lineup in baseball. i believe aaron judge, juan soto, the home run hitters, the sluggers, all-stars, amazing. but the depth is not there. when you look at the starting pitching, also, they can't get into the seventh inning. the bench is not very helpful to them. it's one of those teams where you look at the very top, and it is a world series champion. right below, you're like, i wish there was a little more help that the best players on the

team had. there is still time. i'm not giving up, joe. >> you're going to end up winning 108, 110 games. >> that's right. >> red sox, we have no chance at all. we look like mr. bern's softball team. there is no way. that said, though, mike barnicle, it's been a heck of a run. you look at these young kids. look at doran who won another game last night with an extraordinary throw. saved the game from center field. i think he is in the top five in war stats. wins above replacement. this guy just keep going. the red sox have a young, aggressive team. of course, you and i both know, it's all because of alex cora. >> this is alex cora's team. alex cora is the face of the boston red sox, more so than any of the other young players who fill out this roster. they are playing exciting basement. they're playing winning baseball. they play the yankees, three big

ones in yankee stadium, the house that babe ruth didn't build. steinbrenner built it. yankees played 89 games. they have 73 games left to play. it is a long season. the yankees have a pretty good roster, not a complete roster. orioles are the best in the american league. they're one of four greatest teams in baseball. yankees, orioles, dodgers, phillies. >> yeah. again, it is a long season. you'd much rather the yankees being their problems right now. kind of like joe biden, you'd rather have the problems in june and july than september and october. pablo, a couple of things we want to talk about. first, u.s. soccer and how monumentally disappointing that was. i'm wondering, i've been hearing for about a year now, even before he announced his retirement from liverpool, a lot of u.s. soccer fans wanting

jurgen klopp to come to the u.s. to coach the team. >> your boy. >> i started hearing that months before klopp was talking about leaving liverpool. when he announced that he was leaving liverpool, i was wondering if this was lining up. i sure as heck hope it is lining up. one of the greatest managers in the world. >> yes. let's keep in mind the big picture here as we all are humiliated by the united states being limited by the copa america tournament. uruguay earlier this week. the world cup is coming to america in 2026, joe. it is almost here. >> yeah. >> the entire point is to not squander what has been called a golden generation of young american soccer players. so you have this young talent that's been underperforming. the question, of course, when all of the talent underperforms is, well, who do you blame? as much as you can independently pick with pulisic and all these

young -- mckenny. the issue is you have a manager in greg ber /*berhelter. the round of 16, not bad but not inspiring. why after this soap opera with geo-reyna and his family did you bring him back? resigned to lead the team into the world cup in 2026. i can imagine literally no affirmative reason why he should still be the manager. meanwhile, jurgen klopp, the problem, of course, is he made a ton of money managing liverpool. eight figures easily. that's not what you pay, typically, u.s. soccer managers in the united states. but if you are serious about getting soccer in a good place before the world cup and the world looks at this country and says, how long has soccer been the sport of the future for you

guys? yeah, you might want to spend a little money to get the best in class, and that'd be klopp. >> spend money and he may get an endorsement deal or two out of it if he comes to america. finally, help me understand the sunday ticket lawsuit. it is a massive lawsuit. what's going on? >> the nfl, this is an antitrust case. reverend al is heading to new orleans soon. if you're a saints fan and move to l.a. and want to watch your saints games, the only way you can do it is by buying nfl sunday ticket. you can't watch individual games in a package sold by your favorite team. all of these fans combine into a class action lawsuit, and they sued the nfl, saying this is anticompetitive. we shouldn't have to spend $350 to pay for all of the games that all the teams put out. we should be able to buy them

individually or just the ones we want to buy. this has been going on for a decade, joe. i started monitoring this years and years ago. roger goodell gambled, said i don't want to settle this case, and he lost. this may head to the supreme court ultimately. at stake is nothing short of how sports business actually operates. all of these leagues have these deals where they say, you have to buy everything or you get nothing if you want to watch out of market games, as they're called. so if you're jerry jones, for instance, joe, he said in this trial, he knows he is going to make a lot more money selling his cowboys games a la carte than, say, the cincinnati bengals will. how this case resolves will have impacts for how the sport is played, how teams are built. it is a giant, giant sports business story that is actually just starting, i think. again, they go to the highest court in the land. >> again, you know, it seems to me it probably will go to the

highest court. i would guess they'd overturn the judgment because it is the nfl's property. they can decide what they want to do with it and what they don't want to do with it. seems to me the problem is here, though, if you're selling things a la carte, like, the plaintiff s want that in the lawsuit, the rich get rich and the poor get poorer. the yankees would get richer. the red sox, the dodgers would get richer. you know, the pirates and the royals would be suffering. you'd create a two-tiered system. i've got to say, in this case, looks like we want to be on the side of the nfl on this. man, you talk about creating a two-class system with this lawsuit. >> yeah, if you are in favor of the way sports has been, which is to say a level of parody that has been enabled because of financial systems saying we have to treat each team equally, it is a story in sports where

anti-competitiveness when it comes to consumer protection is in conflict with anti-competitiveness when it comes to how these teams are able to fund themselves and compete on the field. yeah, if you're a sports fan, this is scary. a small market team, as always, this is scary. if you are a cincinnati bengals fan, again, this is scary. you don't have to be a cowboys fan to realize, this is going to change how all of us maybe get to keep our favorite players. that's something that everyone is going to realize if this goes the other way. >> yup. the host of "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media, pablo torre, thank you. now, back to politics. president biden admitted he, quote, skewscrewed up in the de against donald trump. he vows to continue to fight for the white house. monica alba has the details. >> reporter: president biden celebrating our nation's

history. >> happy independence day. >> reporter: with his political future on the line. the next days of his campaign are critical after last week's disastrous debate performance. which the president acknowledged in a radio interview. >> i screwed up, made a mistake. 90 minutes on stage. look what i've done in 3.5 years. >> reporter: mr. biden insisting he is committed to staying in the race. >> you got me, man. i'm not going anywhere. all right. >> reporter: the public confidence comes as nbc news learned the president is torn between defiance and acceptance amid calls to step aside, according to four people familiar with the matter. signaling in some conversations with allies, aides, and family members that the blowback may grow too large to overcome. >> he just quit, you know, quitting the race. >> reporter: former president trump made the false claims in a video he shared on social media, in which he speculated also over vice president kamala harris becoming the democratic nominee. >> i think she's going to be better. she's so bad.

she's so pathetic. it's just so [ bleep ] bad. >> reporter: the biden campaign slamming the comments, writing, "no, donald, what is bad is running on a platform of your revenge and retribution." the vp and president biden met with more than 20 democratic governors, now rallying around his candidacy. >> i believe in this man. i believe in his character. i believe he has been one of the most transformative presidents in our collective lifetimes. >> reporter: california governor gavin newsom campaigning in michigan confirmed details of the white house meeting in which president biden said he'd limit events in the evening to get more sleep. when asked by a governor whether he'd seen a doctor following the debate, the president conceded he had a check-up a few days after and was fine, according to sources in the room. contradicting his press secretary who, earlier in the day said. >> no, he was not checked by the doctor. >> let's bring in professor at princeton university, eddie glaude jr.

former msnbc host and contributor to "washington monthly," chris matthews. jim vandehei of "axios." former official to susan rice and axelrod, author of "the lost debate." reverend al sharpton and molly jong-fast also still with us. chris matthews, a lot of people on the phone over the past week melting down, i find, as only democrats can melt down. i'm curious, the way forward, is it to wait, give joe biden time and space, see what happens over the next week or so, see where the polls go, where the fundraising goes, how the interviews go? is that the best way forward? >> yeah, i think he is going to do this one step at a time with george stephanopoulos today. i think stephanopoulos will be tough.

he has been in the business of journalism now for decades, and i think he really wants to earn that title as sort of a walter cronkite. in other words, it has to be a tough debate. that'll be, to me, if i were the president, i would have basic answers that can be familiar answers, but just get through it with confidence. i think that's -- i hope the people around him are saying, do what you've done before on immigration, on infrastructure, on ukraine. just stick to the basics. get through this interview, then work on the press conference next week. we owe him a few weeks. i watched him since 1972 when he didn't have a chance in delaware and was elected senator against multi-incumbent senator for a couple terms. won big, big surprise. he ran in '88, '08. he has the presidency here and will hold on to it. one thing i've noticed in the last couple days, there is a

huge distinction between the people who are on the true inside, the true inside with the candidate or a president, and everybody else in the world. you cannot break through. they're really tight. this crowd around the president, maybe two, three personal aides, even within that area, very, very small people who are keeping it completely secret. we don't know. we sit here and don't know what condition he is in, what episodes have come on, how often the episodes have occurred since save for the super bowl when they turned down the tremendous opportunity to speak to the country. we don't know how long it's done or how episodic it is. we don't know anything really. this is incredible story, the power of the very tightly knit biden crowd. it's not even a crowd, it's a few people. this president is very protected. >> eddie glaude, what is your

concern? >> the president simply has to be transparent. he has to admit, as he's done and as his people have done, that he screwed up. you know he's old and is trying to, you know, deal with the issues that, you know, the elderly have to deal with, but he is still competent, capable of governing. he is capable of running. i think at the end of the day, he has to be transparent. he also, i think, has to emphasize the choice, right? i may be old, and i may have had a bad night, but look who i'm running against. it's a convicted felon. look who is on the other side. a person who is threatening the foundation of the country. once that ton trast is made clearly so we can put the stakes in clear focus, then we can move on. he has to be transparent, joe, it seems to me. >> yeah, i think you're exactly right. there has to be a transparency there. rev, it's really something. i hear the right and the

trumpers and the usual suspects, the tabloids going after joe biden. these are the same people that praised ronald reagan in his second term. >> right. >> who understood he was slipping. who understood and laughed when, you know, the media couldn't get to reagan. when they'd ask reagan a question and he seemed confused, and nancy would whisper the answer to him and he would answer. that got picked up on mic a few time. the same republicans would laugh, look at that. the press can't get at our guy. it got so bad for reagan, even an incoming chief of staff, howard baker, commissioned a study on the 25th amendment for reagan in case they needed it. of course, ronald reagan ended his presidency, had an iconic

picture with gorbachev in front of the statue of liberty. that same year, you had the berlin wall falling. ronald reagan leaving washington with a 60% approval rating. so republicans, rev, it seems, in the past have not minded having an elderly man in the white house who had memory lapses, who had a terrible first debate, and who they had to stage manage because he was getting older. now, of course, though, this is shocking and stunning, and they just don't know what they're going to do. >> no, it really is amazing when you look at the history of how republicans managed an elderly reagan, how they managed eisenhower, who had an attack while he was president, he was a republican, and now they're trying to make the country think this is such a panic on what we don't know about biden. we still don't know if it was a

bad night or if it was something else. i think he's earned a right with his achievements and his accomplishments, as president, for us to give him at least a couple of weeks to really decide what he is doing and to come forth. we'll see what happens with stephanopoulos. we'll see what happens with the press conference. they wanted the next morning, immediately, for him to start running relay races to prove something when their guy is sitting on a golf cart looking like the dunkin doughboy, cursing every other word. [ laughter ] let me ask you, talking about donald trump, jim, it was interesting to me how he dumped on vice president kamala harris. saying the vice president is being touted as, if necessary, being a candidate. i talked to her yesterday briefly.

he said, no, bidn is all in. don't worry about it. speaking at the essence festival. i'm going right after this show. what would be donald trump's strategy if, by some reason, he would have to run against kamala harris? because polls are saying that she has really enhanced her position. she's really grown. what would be the trump strategy facing the first woman and first woman of color to be vice president and possibly president if that became the case. i'm not predicting that. i'm just raising hypothesis. >> first all, trump would rather run against biden, for sure. he feels like, because of what happened on the debate stage, it is an easier race for him. he has, you know, you saw what he said in the comments about kamala harris. he'll say she is too liberal, weak on the border, weak on the economy. she's a phony. she's weird. you've seen it all from him so far. i will say that there's a lot of people around trump who worry

that he's underestimating her or underestimating anything other than biden. meaning, listen, yes, it'd be messy. yes, it would be unprecedented. but you would suddenly have a much younger ticket. you'd no longer have the age question as a real issue. in fact, it could become your liability because you'd be older than the candidate. there would be a lot of free public attention on the convention. there's a lot of money around there. the money would come regardless of who the candidate is. and it is a little bit harder for him to play hardball and to attack a minority woman than it is joe biden. it just is. i think there is a worry because they're looking at who is the swing voters that are left? a lot of them are women. a lot are independents, like his policies, worry about his style, and would that backfire? it's a big question. you know, you had the conversation that he's in. he's in until he's not. chris said something important. there is a huge distinction between the people on the

payroll and who love him as a family member and the rest of democrats. the rest of democrats we're talking about, which might be different than some of the folks on the panel are, they're really, really worried. these are aides, people at the dnc, at elected office. they're looking at polling out of new hampshire, looking at places that shouldn't be in play. they're in virginia, listening to donors. they're in a massive panic. "the new york times" has a story picking apart almost every sentence of the two radio interviews he did. he did say some weird things in there. imagine you, even if you're at the top of your game, someone is scrutinizing everything you say. that's his reality if he stays in. >> jim, let me -- i want to interrupt. you're so right. again, everything, especially after that debate, jim, is valid. but you go through "the new york times" articles and look at that

wauk interview. i mean, when i ran at 31, you get on there and start talking fast, get a lot of stuff on your mind, and it's all over the place. you know, i wouldn't want to see the transcripts of my interviews. >> right. >> the fact they're going through the interview saying, well, here, he sort of stumbled and went to this or that, and there was a little stream of consciousness, i think it is absolutely ridiculous, especially, again, when you look at the crazy shit donald trump says every day. and the papers have already -- including "the new york times," "washington post," "wall street journal," well, yeah, he's crazy. stack that up with what biden is saying in the interviews, his wisconsin interview, what he said fourth of july, all of these other things, and as far as -- you know, now they're ceasing on, oh, he said this. forgot mayorkas' name. do you know how many times doi

i do this show and forget mayorkas' name? this is at 7:30 in the morning instead of 8:00 at night. again, i don't want to go on and -- i'm not carrying the guy's water. i said what i said last friday. but i went to ireland to interview the guy. we did two or three things in ireland, events in a day, went back to the hotel wiped out. i read the paper the next morning and saw biden did seven. it is a constant, steady schedule. that is, by the way, at the end of the day, it's up to him. the buck stops with him. >> yeah. >> this idea that we're going to hold joe biden to one standard and donald trump to another standard, which is really no standard at all if we're getting into the syntax and the crazy things he says in -- i want to see "the new york times" write that story the next time donald trump gives a speech if his people ever allow him off the golf course or away from the

dunkin donuts shop. >> listen, i'll let the panel and then twitter light me on fire. i don't totally agree with you. yes, you have to scrutinize the hell out of donald trump. i agree. i think that this white house very purposely and deceptively went after any reporter who raised any questions about whether they were making accommodations because of his age and because of his capacity. alex thompson on our staff wrote about it. we were on the other end of it. they were furious. they ridiculed. they said everything is false. then since the debate performance, which everybody saw, it was real, you saw it, have conceded, it wasn't great, it was bad, disturbing. >> right. >> ever since then, the litany of excuses, whether he was too sleepy or whether it was an 11-day jet lag or whether or not he needs to go to bed earlier, like, none of this stuff to the average voter passes the smell test. i'm going to defend "the new york times." i'm going to defend alex thompson, saying, scrutinize the

h hell out of this. >> i talk to the guy an awful lot. i was in communication with him an awful lot. i will just say, i spoke to him over the past week. i've said it before. i'll say it again. he sounds extremely cogent. he's all there. i still don't know what happened last thursday night. i don't know if he knows what happened last thursday night. i didn't get that from him directly. i'm just saying, as somebody who talked to him regularly, i still don't know what happened last thursday night. but is "the new york times" now playing catchup because they think they should have written more about this beforehand? >> i mean, i can't get into the psychology of "the new york times." do i think a lot of reporters didn't do enough reporting on this topic? absolutely. again, light me on fire for it. i think it is a topic that should -- you talked about ronald reagan. biden was older on day one than reagan was when we left office. different pop age at different

levels. when you see what you saw on the stage, i think reporters have an obligation to be making sure, does he have the capacity to do the job? people will watch the stephanopoulos conversation. lawmakers are trying to figure it out. it's not just the debate performance. look at the reporting. look at alex thompson's reporting about the number of staffers who work for him, are currently on his payroll, who have seen the same thing and worry about it. i think both can be true. my parents, thank god are still alive. when you get into your 80s, you can have awesome days and not such awesome moments. i think what people are trying to figure out is, okay, if that happened on the debate stage, was it, to your point, a one-off? two, how is that going to get better and not progressively worse by the time he is 86, if he wins a second term? i think that's a fair question. i also think it is a fair question about whether or not trump screws up and whether or not he has the mental acuity at 78 to do the job, and whether or not he says things that are true

or untrue or lies or mean or wrong or threatening to the future of democracy. >> right. >> both of those things can be true at once. people who don't want the coverage, i'm sorry. grow up. you have to be able to -- it's a huge moment in american history. people have to have the facts at hand. reporters have to do their job. a lot of reporters should have done a better job earlier. now, maybe some are playing makeup. great, i like it. i want to know as much as possible so the voters who haven't made up their mind can make up their mind with the best announce of knowledge possible. >> i completely agree, jim. we're not -- not at loggerheads at all. i completely agree. this is a legitimate story. it needs to be covered legitimately. there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. i'm just saying, going through radio transcripts when, you know, he's always jumbled his words, that's -- i don't know that that's the correct way to do it. also, i've said it before and i'll say it again, "the wall

street journal" story that broke a couple weeks beforehand, there was a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. they decided to do it the wrong way by, first of all, not taking all the on the record quotes the democrats had given them and gone to kevin mccarthy to talk about how bad joe biden was. the same meeting, he told his staff before how effective he was. maybe they got the story right. maybe they got it right for the wrong reason. molly, kevin mccarthy was in conflict with himself. you look at that situation. you look at "the new york post," which d-day ceremonies, you know, cropped photos. again, they may becrowing right now, but they didn't help their own cause beforehand. as i said at the time of the "wall street journal" story, i didn't like how they did it. i didn't like the kevin mccarthy quotes. but i said on this panel with

jonathan lemire and katty kay, there's a story there. they should do a story. maybe they do the story about less press conferences. maybe they do the story about how maybe he is slipping. there is a story there. but this wasn't it. >> right. i think it is an important distinction. look, no one here is against reporting. this organization runs on reporting. all of us write, even on the opinion side, we write on reporting. reporting is one of the central tenant of all we're doing here. the larger question just is, you know, is the coverage covering these stakes and not the odds? are they covering the policy and not the probability? i think that is the larger question. we have ravi here who has more thoughts on the democratic anxiety. >> yeah, biden could be winston churchill and it won't change the dynamic of the race. people are smart enough to know you have good days and bad days.

thursday night was a catastrophe. i think the white house invited the scrutiny by not putting biden out there, by attacking people who have spoken the truth about biden condition. even like axelrod, who raised the mere question of whether biden should have decided early in the race otherwise. ron mcclain went after him. biden, it was leaked, called him names. "the wall street journal," there's never going to be perfect reporting. in part, there is a close circle of advisors around biden who are not letting others in. if you talk to anybody in the white house, even people with senior titles, don't have access to the president. i think the average american is looking at this president saying, well, a president needs to communicate, right? the president needs to have stamina. they need to stay in meetings all day and tell people what to do and ask questions. i think the american people saw somebody last week who is not capable of that and who,

likelihood, will become less capable. >> ravi, what is the best step for the white house? what do you think they need to do? >> i disagree with chris. i don't think we have weeks. they should get biden out there. he should say, look, i'm extremely grateful for this opportunity. talk about his incredible record. then i think he should say, i'm going to focus on the next few months and let the incredible candidates move forward. you know, we could debate whether he should christen kamala harris right now or whether they should let the delegates decide. i'm personally invested in helping to nudge biden along, somebody i'm incredibly grateful for. the american people are voting for a president for the next four years, not the past four years. >> all right. ravi gupta, thank you so much. you can listen to the final episode of his "killing justice" podcast this monday wherever you get your podcasts. co-founder and ceo of "axios,"

jim vandehei, thank you, as well. good luck on twitter today. still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to turn back to the uk election and talk about the wide-ranging implications of labour party's, not just a landslide win, it's an historic win. this is the worst conservative loss in the uk ever. it looked like it was going to be the worst since 1832, but they even surpassed that. talk about a political earthquake in great britain. the rest of europe darting right. britain going left. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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what an amazing reception. we did it! [ applause ] you campaigned for it. you fought for it. you voted for it. now, it has arrived. change begins now. >> that was keir starmer earlier today vowing that change begins now after his party swept to victory yesterday. in the past hour, conservative leader rishi sunak arrived at buckingham palace to offer his resignation, which king charles accepted. the former prime minister or the soon-to-be former prime minister also gave an incredibly gracious farewell to the british people from 10 downing.

also, moments ago, keir simmons left -- keir starmer left buckingham palace after meeting king charles. he's now been appointed as the united kingdom's new prime minister. let's bring in right now sky news anchor and msnbc contributor anchor frost. also, editor in chief of bloomberg. thank you, both, for being with us. let's start with the scope of the victory. let's start with the fact that this is history. for america, this is fdr over al landon. you have to go back a long way to, well, find a time conservatives faired this badly. actually, they've never fared this badly, have they? >> this is a historically big defeat for conservatives.

a fraction smaller majority for starmer than in 1997. 179 seat majority. starmer's is about 175. but a monumental victory, as you're saying. 412 seats of the 650 in total. 63% overall. he'll be able to do pretty much whatever he wants, particularly in the early years. i'd add to the size and significance, joe, that you mentioned there when trying to compare it to past it's the first labour party win in 14 years, which is a big, big change in direction or the nation. >> massive. john, we're looking at keir starmer, the new prime minister, greeting well-wishers there. my gosh, i look at him, and it's hard to find somebody that is more temperamentally different

than jeremy corbyn, more politically different than jeremy corbyn. he is -- he is cautious to a fault. talk about a steady as she goes sort of guy. yet, what he has done for the labour party since the disaster of corbyn's reign as the head of labour, it's breathtaking. 2019, labour was losing strongholds up north, and now this massive victory. >> it is rather amazing. you've seen this guy, as you pointed out, i think you'll agree, not the most inspirational man. low key and methodical. yet, i'd argue, not only has he suddenly ended up with this massive majority by only getting 34% of the vote, he's certainly going to become a much bigger figure in everyone's lives around the world.

you look next week, you have the nato summit. hooe show up, as you've been discussing. joe biden, there's doubts about whether he will survive the weekend. you have macron who is in real trouble. olaf scholz is not in a good position in germany. this will be a key man in the future of the west. he was someone most people didn't know who he was a few week ago, outside britain. he's now become a much bigger deal, and he's done that in the kind of slow, methodical, rather boring way that politics used to be done. >> john, politically, also policy wise, what does this mean for britain and the world? >> i think it means, in terms of foreign policy, his main focus will probably be europe. if he can do a deal with europe that is better than the somewhat useless one boris johnson left behind, he will become somebody

who can produce growth. if you look at the british economy, there isn't much room unless you actually get some growth from somewhere. that is his challenge. the most easy place to get growth is in europe, if he can deregulate planning laws and all those things. that can help him. >> let's listen to the new prime minister. [ applause ] >> i want to thank the outgoing prime minister, rishi sunak. his achievement as the first british-asian prime minister of our country. the extra effort that that will have required should not be underestimated by anyone. we pay tribute to that today. and we also recognize the dedication and hard work he brought to his leadership. but now, our country has voted

decisively for change, for national renewal, and a return of politics to public service. the gap between the sacrifices made by people and the service they receive from politicians grows this big, and it leads to a weariness in the heart of a nation. a draining away of the hope, the spirit, the belief in a better future. but we need to move forward together. now, this wound, this lack of trust can only be healed by actions, not words. i know that. but we can make a start today with the simple acknowledgment that public service is a

privilege. that your government should treat every single person in this country with respect. if you voted labour yesterday, we will carry the responsibility of your trust as we rebuild our country. but whether you voted labour or not, in fact, especially if you did not, i say to you directly, my government will serve you. politics can be a force for good. we will show that. we've changed the labour party, returned it to service, and that is how we will govern. country first, party second. yet, if i'm honest, service is merely a precondition of hope. it is surely clear to everyone that our country needs a bigger

reset, a rediscovery of who we are, because no matter how fierce the storms of history, one of the great strengths of this nation has always been our ability to navigate a way to carve our waters. yet, this depends upon politicians, particularly those who stand for stability and moderation, as i do, recognizing when we must change course. for too long now, we've learned a blind eye as millions slid into greater insecurity. nurses, builders, drivers, carers, people doing the right thing, working harder every day, recognized at moments like this before, yet as soon as the cameras stop rolling, their lives are ignored.

i want to say very clearly to those people, not this time. changing a country is not like flipping a switch. the world is now a more volatile place. this will take a while. but have no doubt that the work of change begins immediately. have no doubt that we will rebuild britain with wealth created in every community. we'll be back on our feet facing the future. secure borders, safer streets, everyone treated with dignity and respect at work. the opportunity of clean british power cutting your energy bills for good. and brick by brick, we will rebuild the infrastructure of opportunity. the world-class schools and colleges. the affordable homes that i know are the ingredients of hope for

working people. the security, the working class families like mine can build their lives around. because if i asked you now whether you believe that britain will be better for your children, i know too many of you would say no. and so my government will fight every day until you believe again. from now on, you have a government unburdened by doctrine, guided only by the determination to serve your interests, to defy, quietly, those who have written our country off. you have given us a clear mandate, and we will use it to deliver change, to restore service and respect to politics, end the era of noisy

performance, tread more lightly on your lives, and unite our country. nations standing together again, facing down as we have so often in our past, the challenges of an insecure world, committed to a calm and patient rebuilding. so with respect and humility, i invite you all to join this government of service in the mission of national renewal. our work is urgent, and we begin it today. thank you very much. [ cheers and applause ] >> that is the new prime minister who has already been to see king charles iii. the new prime minister keir starmer, much to talk about here. i want to go back and talk about

the economics of this. he talked about rebuilding britain with the health service, secure borders, safer streets, clean energy, and creating an infrastructure of opportunity for all of the british people. talk about the challenges ahead. >> enormous challenges. what's interesting in that long list of aims that you just mentioned, joe, is it's not wildly different from many of the aims that rishi sunak and the conservatives were trying to address. the big difference is he has an enormous majority with his party behind him. with that, the ability to do something about that. you talked about the economy and the business view. i think the most striking difference is that there is certainty now. there is certaintythat, the hop they will be able to deliver. the two other things that stood out for me in that speech, the first is he started by thanking richie ssunak.

not only is it a warm and smooth transition, a very, very fast one between election day and inauguration day. the other thing that stood out for me is he said politics will be a force for good. we will show that. there's a temptation between, and john was talking about this earlier, to look at what happened in france over the weekend in the uk to say it's the opposite because the center-left and macron got smashed in france whereas the center-left winning resoundingly here. there is a clear similarity. the incumbent is getting smashed hard by elections all over the place, and that is his task. he won't be thinking about his electoral task for five years' time right now. he's going to be thinking about how he's going to govern. that is his task for five years' time, but he'll change that to show that politics is for good, and to get the sense that the nation respects and rewards you at the next election, because that's not what's happening in france and in the uk at the moment. >> all right. sky news anchor and msnbc

contributor, wilfred frost, and editor at bloomberg, thank you so much. appreciate you being here. chris matthews, i mean, what i would do to hear an american politician talk like this. this is revolutionary in that it takes us back to the future. i used to have bobby kennedy picture with his words underneath talking about how public service was actually an honor. you know, it was an honorable calling, but listen to some of the things he said. when talking about uniting our country, we will do it by being calm and patient. we will be unburdened by doctrine. instead we'll be focused only on your needs. no to noisy politicians. we will govern with respect and humility. public service is an honor and a

responsibility and a respect, and then the antithesis, on fourth of july, where he uses those holidays to trash all of his political opponents and everybody that doesn't vote for him. keir starmer who said, for those who voted against me, especially those who voted against me, know this. my government will serve you, and he said, politics can be a force for good. he talked about stability and moderation, and then, you know, i think the defining line, country first, party second. what americans would do to hear those words coming from a national figure, and to see

politics go back to where keir starmer is trying to take it in britain. >> well, you know, the one american leader that i recognize in those words is josh shapiro, the new governor of pennsylvania who came across with this idea, i want to crack through the cultural difference between the working people, the trumpees in some cases and the better off people, perhaps, the elite if you will. he said, i'm going to make it a rule in pennsylvania, you do not have to have a college degree to get a job in this state. it was such a simple cultural statement. i'm going to end that line of class distinction, and this guy coming in, starmer saying, i'm going to not be burdened -- as you said, burdened by ideology. that is so powerful. all these years, destroyed it. the corbins, the crazies, the tony blair came in with an even

stronger majority than this fella. people don't want left-wing ideology. they don't want right-wing ideology. they want something much closer to the center, and i'm worried now that macron over in paris, they have somehow lost that ability to stay near the center like we for years stayed near the center. even with reagan, it was near the center. it wasn't as right-wing as he talked in the '50s and '60s. it was near the center, and are we going to lose that safe keel right in the middle, and a little bit to the left, a little bit to the right, and working for the average american? i think that's something that is in danger right now in this election, and if i were president biden tonight with george stephanopoulos, i would lay it on the line. i would play a tape or mention it. here's the guy that said he wanted women to suffer, to be punished for having an abortion. this guy is crazy. this guy is not predictable. he'll say one thing and pick three judges that will destroy

the supreme court and take away a woman's right to choose and he'll do that because he doesn't feel like doing something else. it's totally unpredictable, and we need a return for something more like this guy we're seeing in britain today, and maybe that's a good course we'll be on. back to the center. >> yeah, eddie, and again, just talking about uniting the country, calm and patient leadership, unburdened by doctrine, focused only on your needs, no to noisy politicians, respect and humility, public service and honor and responsibility, country first, party second. i mean, it is the antithesis of everything donald trump says time and time again, and obviously a great formula for labor in great britain. >> absolutely. absolutely. i might disagree with chris on some things in terms of right, left, and center. center is an ideological

position, but what i take the new prime minister of britain to be saying is it's not about ideology. it's actually about delivering hardcore, tangible results for everyday people. >> right. >> and to be concerned about their needs, those kitchen table issues that are facing families in britain, and that is post-ideological in a certain way, right? you can have your commitments, joe. you can have your particular view of the world, but at the end of the day is you're trying to deliver particular goods to everyday ordinary folks so their lives can be better. it was refreshing to hear this idea that government of service, that politics can be a force for good, right? that for us is lost in this moment. it seems as if he was trolling us in some ways given the way in which our politics seemed to be so deformed and debased in certain ways, but again, what happened to britain really quickly, what happened in

britain, everyday ordinary people decided they needed a change, and if we're going to get to that politics, joe, everyday ordinary people in america are going to have to make -- they're going to have to demand and make the change as well. >> agreed, and the parties can hopefully start getting people who, you know, you look at my former party, the republican party that's not obsessed on ideology, that's obsessed on results. country first. >> that's it. >> country over party, and again, to donald trump, take a page from keir starmer. >> mm-hmm. >> who says, for those who voted against me, i will serve you. i will be your leader. i will work hard for you. i mean, that's how we were raised. >> right. >> politics can be -- it really can be a noble calling, and we

got a glimpse of the with that victory -- not only that victory speech, but the concession speech from the conservatives, richie sunak. thank you both. greatly appreciate it. happy 4th of july, and happy 4th of july weekend. we're back in two minutes. of july weekend. we're back in two minutes.

during a meeting with democratic governors on wednesday, president biden suggested he might start

limiting events after 8:00 p.m. so he can get more sleep. one source tells nbc news the president was asked about his health, but he said he was doing fine, adding, quote, it's just my brain. the governors took that as a joke as did biden campaign chair jenn o'malley dillon. she said biden was clearly making a joke, adding that he also said, all kidding aside, and in the wisconsin interview that aired yesterday, president biden acknowledged he had a poor debate performance, but defended his candidacy. >> i had a bad night. i had a bad night, and the fact of the matter is that, you know -- i screwed up. i made a mistake, but i learned from my father. when you get knocked down, you just get back up. get back up, and, you know, we're going to do -- we're going to win this election. we're going to just beat donald trump like we did in 2020, we're going to beat him again, but we

need all of you to get this done. all of you. look. i came back from -- i was in a situation where -- why i didn't have a good debate. that's 90 minutes on stage. look at what i've done in 3.5 years. >> yeah. i'll tell you what. so many democrats on the phone nonstop since that debate, and there's panic. no doubt there's panic all around. i said eight days ago that the president needed to consider getting out. said that we needed to give it time, needed to see what was going to happen, and i think we're still there. i mean, it is july the 5th. this happened eight days ago, and decision time is not upon us yet, and though it may be coming soon, i think we should first honor a man who was first on the

ballot 54 years ago by giving him the time and the space to make his decision before we tell him that we've made ours. this week there are going to be a lot more polls. there are going to be more interviews. there's going to be a nato summit, and we're going to have more information to take in. now the test of our democracy and of our citizenship is to contemplate different scenarios that could happen if joe biden decides to get out of the race, but the first is to see where the man is, who get all of the democratic delegates in primary season this past year. we do actually have a democracy still in america. this is not a reality show. you cannot make up things as we go along. that's what the other side does. we must instead watch with open hearts and open minds.

we can't be trumpian and yield all of our desires to our dear leader. facts are coming in. facts will keep coming in over the next week, and we stipulate right here and right now that trump's republicans are not serious about their politics. they're not serious about their party, and they're not serious about this republic, and unfortunately the last week's debate, we enforced that sorry truth more than ever. because get this -- you probably missed this with all the whining that was going on over the past week. as bad as joe biden was that night, and he was historically bad, donald trump was even worse with his lies. and if you saw any of the polls that came out that had joe biden losing a few points, you may have noticed as independent -- as "the new york times" wrote,

that independent voters took notice and that donald trump actually lost independent voters in that debate. i find that staggering. now republicans and their far-right allies and the media are in meltdown mode saying, i told you so, and they're accusing the press of a coverup. let's just say before they get too self-righteous, let's remember republicans long idolized an aging republican president whose decline was so bad, it let an incoming chief of staff, howard baker, to commission a study of the 25th amendment in case they needed to do it on ronald reagan. so please, please republicans, please right-wing media outlets, spare us your moral indignation over a man who had a really, really terrible debate, but a

man who's been the most effective president over the past 3 1/2 years, the most effective president in passing bipartisan legislation this century. the most effective president in strengthening the dollar over the past 50 years. the most -- most successful president when it comes to expanding our alliances, expanding nato, expanding our defense reach all around china. spare us your shock and your indignation. 3 1/2 years and a terrible debate, and what democrats need to find out this week, and what democrats need to worry about this week are not what the newspapers that were lying about joe biden for years before this past week say. they need to look to joe biden, and he needs to answer the

question, is he capable of moving forward? and he knows he needs to answer that question. he needs to answer it in interviews. he needs to answer it in press conferences. he needs to answer the nato summit. he needs to answer it in everything that he does. as for the rest of us, and that's democrats. that's independents. that's republicans of good faith. let's be smart. let's take a deep breath and let's understand it's only july the 5th. such an historic decision should not be made in haste. now listen. the democratic party is not my party. i'm an independent, but it is the only party that is standing between our democracy, our great constitutional republic, and an autocratic thug who has promised to be dictator on day one.

so democrats,you better get this right. you better think through it. you better take your time. you better take a deep breath, and you better get this right, and if you do, america will follow you. most americans do not want the other guy to be elected president of the united states. so don't put him in a position where they feel like they have to vote for the tyrant by default. do take the time necessary though to get this right because american democracy is riding on it and the whole world is watching what you're doing. good luck. good speed, john glenn. let's bring in mine barnicle, reverend al sharpton, susan page, and still with us, mike, i

start with you. i swear to god, it has been, like -- it's been like therapy. i have been on the phone unfortunately taking a lot of calls over the past week. i know you have too. it's like therapy sessions talking these people down off of a ledge. i mean, they -- they need the answer. they need it right now. they bounce back and forth. they don't realize that it's july the 5th, and they don't remember maybe 1988 when michael dukakis was up 17 points over george h.w. bush in august. >> yeah, you know, joe, we will get an answer. we will get an answer from joe biden sooner rather than later, i would think. this is a man who as you indicated, has been in the business of politics for over half a century. he's been on the ballot multiple times. he's been in multiple debates

over the years. he can read polls. he's pretty good at the business of politics as proven by his career. he knows what's going to on. he knows the depth of trouble. he knows that the debate that people saw something that they cannot unsee. he also knows something that apparently the biden administration hasn't fully explained to the american public, you know, i was thinking about this over the weekend. there were several great elements of history in different presidents that move the economy and the country forward. there was eisenhower's highway act in the 1950s that created suburbs and it was a boom in the economy and a boom in the population. there was jfk and the moon program that changed things for all-time in terms of technology and research and progress for america, and there was lyndon johnson on july 2, 1964, all those years ago, signing the first really effective civil

rights legislation, improved the country, made people feel better about the country. the biden administration has passed the inflation reduction act and the chips act. two pieces of legislation that i'm told by people who know far more about economics than i do will change and improve the progress of our economy, modernize it, make it more widely spread in terms of both the country, red states specifically, will benefit from it more than blue states will. employment is on the rise. it's at record numbers. more people are going to go to work today than any other time in american history. that's the biden administration. now the decision on what he does going forward is his and his alone in concert with his family clearly. he will make the right decision for the country and for himself. >> yeah. no doubt he's got great record. there's no doubt about it, and you can go through it and

compare that record domestically, legislatively, foreign policy-wise to anybody else's, and certainly all of the numbers far surpass what donald trump did over those four years. donald trump lied. i have to say, you have to stop right here and just say, one of the most remarkable things i've seen in all the polling and the white house was trying to tell me this the night of the debate. in shock -- while they were in shock. the dial showed independents really, really broke away from donald trump. i said, are they spinning me? are they not spinning me? so on the "new york times" yesterday, incredible, biden lost 2, 3 points in most polls, but independents actually broke away from donald trump toward joe biden. that's how much they were turned off by seeing this guy, and you will notice too for all they talk about joe biden being hidden at 8:00 and all of this other stuff, you notice donald trump has kept his head underground politically since

this debate, like, his staff is scared to death of having their old man go out and say crazy things to get him out on stages. they know that when donald trump goes out, he forgets whether we have had world war ii or not. he forgets who the president of the united states is. he thinks he's running against barack obama and beaten him. he thinks he's running against barack obama again, and sometimes he tries to get to the end of the sentence and he just sort of kind of goes off into left field, into the pasture. so again, they're hiding donald trump right now. they don't want donald trump to get behind a microphone because the less he says, the safer they believe they are. so reverend al, another thing the biden team needs to explain is still what exactly happened on thursday night? he talked about being exhausted. i'll tell you that, again, these

right-wingers go, oh. there's been a press coverup. people love writing this, the same people that basically parrot russian talking points on their -- on their, you know, little newsletters. people like that and others who always make sort of a cottage industry out of attacking the press. let me tell you something. you and i spent a lot of time with the president. i spent as much time with the president probably over the past six, nine months as anybody in the media. maybe somebody spent more. i doubt it. i never saw anything approaching this. i spent three hours with the guy back, i think, in march? april? and we talked foreign policy for three hours. he walked me around the white house. he walked me up five flights of stairs, and we kept talking policy everywhere we went. i left there and talked to mika and i said, man, this guy, reminded me of your dad. he's on top of it, man.

he is on top of it. i'd ask him tough questions about russia and ukraine, about the peace process, what bill burns was doing. i would ask him about netanyahu. we went through the west bank, what all the options were. i saw none of this, and the thing is, people should know this about me by now, if i had, i would have said, i love you, mr. president. i'm going to have to tell people tomorrow on the show just like i did last friday. i always say it, you know, just like donald trump. people didn't like it, mika and i said, trump was going to win. trump could win in 2016, and so i -- so i say this to say i spent a lot of time with him. i have been on the phone with him. you have as well, and even i -- i have no idea what happened on thursday night. i saw none of that in all of the time that i've spent with him and all of the time i've talked to him. i'm curious your reflections on a guy that's been in the oval with him and been at the white house with him a good bit. >> i certainly agree with you.

i've spent a lot of time with this president in person and on the phone. i've probably spent more time with him than probably president obama who i was privileged to spend time with. i never saw any signs of this. i think the biggest surprise for me watching the debate is it was a joe biden i had never seen. so i totally agree there needs to be a real, concrete explanation of what happened on thursday night, but i also think where the democrats are not bringing up the right point is they need to force trump's party and trump to explain the lies he told on thursday night. there's no real pressure on going down the 30 lies according to the "new york times" and saying -- >> none. >> -- explain to us how you justified this lie, one, this lie, two, all the way through. he should be having to respond to the lies he told as much as

we are having joe biden respond to clearly a bad night at best that he did in terms of his performance. the other thing in the middle of all of this, joe, that you and i talked about during the week, let's not forget the devastating decision the supreme court made in the middle of all of this that is a real threat to the democratic principles of this country. so we can't get all caught up on whether joe biden's going to work after 8:00 and forget that they have during the week of the 4th of july, there was a revolution where in 1774, the country declared independence from monarchy. they moved us back, this supreme court, three appointed by donald trump toward a monarchy saying that a president can get full immunity for what he calls official acts. that's the bigger threat than all of this. >> yeah.

well, yeah. and i'm glad you brought up too about the working until 8:00 part. the ridiculous thing about that, susan page, is -- i mean, republicans would have loved donald trump to work, like, work until 6:00, work until 5:00. you remember those schedules? executive time, executive time. he sat in his oval office and watched cable news most of the day. they couldn't get him to work. again, it's rich, republicans complaining that joe biden's only going to be working until 8:00 p.m. at night, but again, that said, we've talked -- rev and i talked about the time we have spent with him and the fact we are still trying to figure out exactly what happened on thursday night. i think, again, you look at the independents that are breaking biden's way because of all of trump's lies, think if he can do

that effectively, if he can do it on george stephanopoulos or on another interview, that could be a reset, but a lot of americans still have that question hanging over their head obviously. >> yeah, you know, no more loyal democrat than nancy pelosi, and she raised a question at the debate. she said, was this a episode or is this a condition? however well joe biden does in the interview with george stephanopoulos, and with nato, the news conference after nato this next week, it seems to me he must answer that question there. people have to understand, people like you you have spent time with joe biden, need to understand what exactly was at play there. it seems you have to have a medical explanation, maybe an independent medical examination. i'm not sure how that would work, but that would reassure people. that would answer the question that nancy pelosi posed, and, you know, -- we hear editorial comment from people saying, why i believe "the economist" has an

editorial out that says, why joe biden must withdraw. tell us why you came to that conclusion. >> for a start, we actually argued back in 2022 that he should be a one-term president and should not run again which was something in large part, because of his age, and that was massively reinforced last week. i mean, i watched the debate like millions of americans and was shocked, shocked to see a befuddled old man struggling to recall words and facts, and you're right, that maybe this was an episode, but the president has not really been made available to very many people in informal settings or settings where he can be questioned. i think like many americans, we were just shocked at that performance, and that doesn't detract at all from his accomplishments. i completely agree with you all that his presidency has been incredibly effective, passed tremendous amounts of legislation, but i think what most americans who were as shocked as we were by that

performance, we're thinking about was the next four years, because everyone knows an older person, a frail older person, and unfortunately, and this is brutally true, the passage of time goes one way, and i think that's the reason that we were -- we wrote what we did, which was pretty tough i admit, and that's because this is the toughest job in the world, and you can't run a presidency on auto cue. you can't put off an international crisis because the president is having a bad day, and there may be a fulsome explanation, but unless there is manifesting a vibrant joe biden, president joe biden, who can convince americans that not just that he is capable today, but he is capable to be president for the next four years, i think that's a really tall order. i think there is unfortunately, whether it's because of, you know, loyalty to him or frankly

because of kind of cowardice and complacency, there is too much unwillingness in the democratic party to acknowledge that. this is not about detracting from joe biden's accomplishments. he's been -- as i say, a very, very good president, but that does not necessarily mean that he is the right person to defeat donald trump which is as you say, joe, the most important task at hand, and i think there's a bit of, you know, an unwillingness amongst people on the left, amongst democrats to acknowledge that. it's not undermining president biden to come clean about that and say, actually, this man has been an extremely good president, but he's not the best person to lead the country for the next four years. >> that is the debate that is raging inside the democratic party. zanny, thank you so much, and what exciting times reporting on just the political earthquake in britain. great to have you here.

thank you so much. >> thank you. all right. coming up, the man behind project 2025, the right-wing roadmap for a second trump presidency, is raising new concerns with a cryptic threat about a second american revolution. about a second american revolution

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joe." former u.s. attorney joyce vance has a new piece titled "bloodless if the left allows it to be." oh my god. i just got to say -- these people talking about a second american revolution, good luck. good luck whipping people into a frenzy. i don't think they're ready to give up their friday night football, their saturday night -- saturday s.e.c. football, nfl on sunday, taing their kids to school. this is some right-wing fever dream and they are obsessed with it, obsessed with trying to start a civil war or divide america while america is stronger economically and militarily and culturally than it's ever been. by the way, joyce writes about the head of the heritage foundation of the architect of project 2025, kevin roberts who recently suggested there's going to be a new american revolution.

listen to his comments from earlier this week. >> the left has taken over our institutions. the reason that they are app electric right now, the reason that so many anchors on msnbc for example, are losing their minds daily is because our side is winning, and so i come full circle on this response and just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second american revolution which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. >> yeah, okay. so that's kevin? kevin roberts? is that right? first of all, kev, i'm not losing my mind. i'm actually talking -- you know what i talk about, kevin. i talked about how great america is. i say it all the time. all the time. i talked about how great our military is. i get sick and tired of people like you trashing our military, talking about how weak our military is. it's not weak. our military is stronger than it's ever been.

the communist chinese are scared of us. russia's scared of us. our enemies are scared of us. i'm not talking down america. i'm actually -- i'm very bullish on america. like warren buffett after the 2008 collapse, warren buffett said only a fool would bet against the united states of america. i believed that then. i believed it my entire life, and i believe it now. you're the one talking about revolution. why are you so angry, kevin? why are you losing your mind? america's great. we're strong militarily. we're strong economically. we're strong culturally. we're strong culturally than ever before. there are some things that we need to improve on. we need to do a better job building community. it would be great, kevin, if you would focus on that, building

community and not trying to divide people, but unite people, bring them together. i would love to see the church pews fill back up. that would provide some community as well, but this whole idea that we need a new revolution, i mean, i know it's -- i know it's great fund-raising, but it's just -- it's just bs, and as far as people on msnbc -- i don't know if they're freaking out. i'm not freaking out. not because we're lose. let me get some iced tea here, kevin. i'm going to drink to you. man, i'm going to have to give up sweet tea one day, but that day is not today, but kevin, just a little reminder, trump republicans lost in 2017. trump republicans lost in 2018. trump republicans lost in 2019. trump republicans lost in 2020.

trump republicans lost in 2021. trump republicans lost in 2022. trump republicans lost in 2023, and it's trump republicans talking about revolution because you can't win at the ballot box. so please. who's freaking out? i didn't see people at msnbc starting riots on january the 6th. i didn't see people at msnbc bear spraying cops or crushing cops' heads inside of doors or defecating. no, that's your side, kev. that's your side. the so-called hostages as donald trump calls them, yeah. you guys are the ones who have been freaking out. so i don't know why you're so

angry. try reading the read letters in the new testament, and take a deep breath. it's going to be okay. we're not going to have a second american revolution. we're not going to have a civil war. americans, they're okay. they're okay. they respect each other too much to do that. and up next, former u.s. attorney joyce vance joins us with her new column on all that when "morning joe" returns. n on when "morning joe" returns

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[ speaking minionese ] junior. [ laughter ] good job junior. way to go. [ speaking minionese ] the left has taken over our institutions. the reason that they are apoplectic right now, the reason

that so many anchors on msnbc, for example, are losing their minds daily, is because our side is winning, and so i come full circumstance until this response and just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second american revolution which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. >> i want to bring in joyce now. she joins us. she's the co-host of "sisters-in-law" podcast, and also molly jong fast. both of them off of i'm sure staying up all night watching fireworks. she's of course, an msnbc political analyst. so joyce, there's a frightening document. i understand -- i mean, i hear it's -- i hear it's really frightening, and what i want to know is, is this -- is this a fund-raiing gimmick or do they want to fundamentally remake american democracy in a way that's more authoritarian?

>> it looks like the latter, joe, because the context for the comments that mr. roberts made is project 2025. he heads the heritage foundation. the heritage foundation has produced this immense document, talking about retuning american's values, and it's a very small vision of america. it's an america that would be just for a slice of our population rather than this inclusive notion that america is a country where everybody can have their own beliefs and we can live our lives consistent with those beliefs so long as we don't infringe on other people's values. this is a sort of a christian nationalist approach that is really in my ways this second revolution that you're talking about as being something that americans don't want. this is an effort to force that on other americans. >> molly, when we look at the 2025 and this guy roberts and

saying it will be bloodless if the left allows that, which in and of itself is very dangerous language -- >> yeah. >> because who knows what it means? when it says, we're winning, are they winning, and is that not something that should cause a real pause for most americans and a challenge to the democratic party to get their stuff together because if these guys are advancing -- if that's not just some hype statement, it's a threat to american democracy and all of the interest that we've fought to make progress over the last 50 years? >> oh, absolutely. project 2025 is a threat to american democracy, and i think that should be the top line here, but the other thing that i think is really important when you talk about project 2025 is that project 2025 is wildly unpopular. a lot of this stuff is not popular, and joe was talking about this earlier.

the problem trump is having is not that he's not a charismatic guy. the problem he's having is the republican party's platform of what little is left, is not popular, right? and i mean, what's interesting about 2025 and i've written about it and i've, you know -- i've read about it and it really is really important, but there are things in it like they want to regulate in vitro fertilization. >> right. >> think about that. ivf wildly popular, scientific marvel, produce children for many, many, many people in this country, and they want to regulate it because they believe and one of the central tenets of project 2025 and the heritage foundation is a fertilized egg is a human being. >> we'll talk more about this with jennifer palmieri when she joins the conversation in the fourth hour of "morning joe." an all-important measure is also crossing today with the june's jobs report. we'll have those numbers next on

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coming up, longtime political strategist, stewart stevens is our guest. he penned an op-ed to tell democrats to stop panicking in the wake of president biden's debate performance. i'm going to talk to stu straight ahead on "morning joe." u straight ahead on "morning joe."

welcome back to "morning joe." the view of new york city, looking a little grim this morning.

a little fogged in right after the 4th of july celebrations last night. hope you had a great 4th of july. hope you have a great 4th of july weekend coming up. of course, a staple of 4th of july celebrations across america are nathan's annual 4th of july hot dog-eating contest, and they have a new champion. patrick bertiletti won. that's a personal record for him. it doesn't even compare to the former champion joey chestnut who won nathan's context 16 times. he wasn't at this year's event because of his partnership with the rival brand, impossible foods. chestnut did, however, take part in a different challenge in el paso, texas. he competed against four soldiers eating 57 hot dogs in five minutes. the soldiers ate a combined

total of 49 hot dogs. i don't know what's wrong with that guy. he says he's leaving the door open to participate in nathan's hot dog eating contest in the future, but says he's going to need an apology if he's ever going to be able to work with major league eating contest again. with us now, the host of meadowlark media, pablo torrey. >> joey chestnut, i want america to know this, is the first athlete i ever interviewed. i covered his first nathan's hot dog-eating contest, and i always thought about him specifically on july 5th even more than july 4th because that guy has to reckon with what happened to him. i don't want to be in his home on the day this happens. maybe the only example of someone defeating america's military that we can safely

celebrate. >> it's bad. >> he got signed to impossible foods, joe, which is of course, the fake hot dog, vegan-friendly brand. it has created a whole bunch of -- actually texts and google searches that i have seen and heard. where is joey chestnut? will he return? in one year's time, we will find out if america's long national nightmare will be over, i suppose. >> thank you for giving a perfect segue into -- you just kind of walked right in it. where is joey chestnut, leads us to where are the new york yankees? >> okay. >> what is happening? >> a gluttony for punishment. >> yeah. >> speaking of truly, like, one of the most un-american cold warhead lines, the reds swept the yankees yesterday, joe. the reds hadn't done this. >> wow. >> the reds of cincinnati have not swept the yankees since the 1976 world series for those 1976

world series. the yankees, i come on here and i do my best to remind everybody, look, they got 54 wins, they're still in this, they're one of the best teams in baseball. every time i come here and look at the last ten games. oh, right, they're 2-8 right now. the yankees had not been swept at all in three games this season. >> what's the problem with the yankees right now? >> the problem is they have the greatest line-up in baseball. aaron judge, juan soto, these sluggers, all stars both, amazing. but the depth is not there. when you look at the starting pitching also, they can't get into the seventh inning. the bench is not very helpful to them. it's one of those teams where you look at the top and it's a

world series champion. right below, i wish there was a little more help. but there's still time, joe. i'm not giving up. >> it's a marathon, my friend. you guys are going to end up winning 108, 110 games. the red sox have no chance at all. we look like mr. burns' softball team. there's no way. you look at these young kids. you look at duran who, again, duran won another game last night with an extraordinary throw, saved the game from center field. i think he's in the top five in w.a.r. stats, wins above replacement. this guy just keeps going. and the red sox have a young, aggressive team. you and i both know it's all because of alex cora. >> this is alex cora's team. alex cora is the face of the boston red sox more so than any

of the young players who play. the house that babe ruth didn't build, the house that joe steinbrenner built. they've played 89 games. they've got 73 games left to play. it's a long season. the yankees have a pretty good roster. the orioles might have a better roster. they're one of the four great teams in baseball, yankees, orioles, dodgers, phillies. >> it is a long season. you'd much rather the yankees be having their problems right now. it's kind of like joe biden. you'd rather have problems in june and july than september and october. pablo, i want to talk about u.s. soccer and just how monumentally

disappointing that was. i've been hearing for about a year ago, a lot of u.s. fans wanting klopp to come and keep the team. when he announced he was leaving liverpool, i was wondering if this was lining up. i sure as heck hope it's lining up, one of the greatest managers in the world. >> let's keep in mind the big picture here as we all are humiliated by the copa america tournament. the world cup is coming to america in 2026, joe. it's almost here. the entire point is to not squander what's been called a golden generation of young american soccer players. you have this young talent that's been underperforming. who do you blame?

as much as you can individually pick nits, the issue is you have a manager in greg burrhalter who has been an embarrassment for a very long time. when you think back to the last world cup and he made the round of 16, okay, not bad. also not inspiring. why are you keeping him? he got resigned to lead this team into the world cup in 2026. i can imagine no affirmative reason why he should still be the manager. meanwhile, jurgen klopp made a ton of money managing liverpool, eight figures easily. that's not what you'd pay typically u.s. soccer managers in the united states. but if you are serious about

getting soccer in a good place before the world cup and the world looks at this country and says how long has soccer been the sport of the future for you guys? then you might want to spend a little money to get the best in class, and that'll be klopp. thank you so much. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. mountain climbing tina at a cabin. or tree climbing tina at a beach resort. nice! booking.com booking.yeah. at care.com, it's easy to get a break, even if you're not on summer vacation. join millions of families who've trusted us and find caregivers in your area for kids, seniors, pets, and homes. go to care.com now to find the care you need this summer.

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♪♪ welcome back to "morning joe." man, it is foggy all over america today, right? san francisco, i mean, not a city known for fog. oh, wait. yeah, they are. from new york to san francisco, a little foggy the day after fourth of july celebrations all

over the country. it's 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the west. welcome back to "morning joe." we've had some breaking news this morning. we saw keir starmer outside 10 downing street and gave just a beautiful, beautiful unifying message following up on the greatest political landslide, i guess, in britain since 1997 and the worst conservative defeat in the history of the united kingdom, which goes back a few years. so that's breaking news. also breaking economic news, the june jobs report was released that shows the u.s. economy added 206,000 jobs. the unemployment rate ticked up to 1.4%. let's bring in christine romans.

reverend al sharpton also with us as well. christine, this is economists and i would guess fed members, they like a sort of steady as it goes approach. this is a pretty steady number, just right along expectations, right? >> it's cooling. that is something that economists and fed folks want to see, because the job market for the past few years has been simply roaring and has been so strong that it's been part of the inflation story. you're seeing cooling inside these numbers. you've got 206,000 jobs added in june. that's down from 218 in may. you look inside these numbers, and you see things that tell you maybe some of the froth is coming off a very, very strong job market. and the unemployment rate, 1.4%,

that's the highest we've seen since way back in november 2021. this shows a labor market that is robust, that is strong. you still have way more open jobs than people looking for jobs in america, but at least it's not quite so tight that it's feeding into that inflation story. >> that's, of course, a big story surrounding the economy. it's always so fascinating for people who don't follow the economy closely or follow the data. we talk about it all the time. it's kind of maddening. good news is bad news. bad news is good news. when you see jobs numbers going down, that may be good news. in the past when we've had strong job numbers, wall street is freaked out, because that means a hot economy, means higher interest rates. if we stay here at about 200,000, this means the fed probably gets a pass at what

americans want badly, what new homeowners want badly, and that is lower interest rates. >> that's right. can the fed chip away at those interest rates with a quarter point cut, maybe another one at the end of the year? you don't cut into a super strong economy, and we have had a super strong economy. the fed has wanted to sit on its hands and not potentially undo all of their good work. you're right, these rates -- a lot of people thought you'd see rates cutting by now, but the economy is just so strong. the resilience of the american economy has been amazing. you look at the value of a dollar, for example, the rest of the world looks at what's happening in the u.s. the dynamism of the u.s. economy is something that is the envy of the rest of the world right now.

>> it really is. our unemployment rate is lower consistently than any time in the past 30, 40 years. it has been a strong, resilient economy. for those who want lower interest rates, a bit too resilient at times. nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans, thank you so much. president biden admits that, quote, he screwed up in last weeks debate. he insists he's staying in the race for the white house. kelly o'donnell has the latest. >> reporter: carrying on a summer celebration with his campaign facing crisis, a renewed pledge from president biden that he's staying in the race. >> you got me, man. i'm not going anywhere. >> reporter: and that means today is no ordinary day for the president, heading to wisconsin

for a very public test, a rally and a high-stakes on-camera interview. new this morning, the campaign announcing an aggressive travel schedule and $50 million paid media blitz. biden allies say today's events are a critical step. >> he's got to show it. he's got to get up there, show the sustained strength and take it on, head on. >> reporter: after the debate that shook his candidacy, any public appearance by the president is drawing scrutiny, including this radio interview that aired yesterday. >> by the way, i'm proud to be the first vice president, black woman, third black president. i'm proud to put the first black woman on the supreme court. >> reporter: the campaign calling it absurd, saying it was abundantly clear the president was talking about his record of running mates and appointments. in a meeting with democratic governors, two sources familiar with the exchange say mr. biden

said he was seen by his doctor, but earlier that day his team had said this. >> he did not get checked out by the doctor. >> reporter: and later corrected he did have a brief exam. governor gavin newsom says the president told them he needs to prioritize sleep. many governors expressing support after the meeting. nbc news reporting some democrats say the president's debate performance was not an anomaly. one democratic senator saying the country saw what those of us who have had personal interactions with him have all known for the last 2 1/2 years. other democrats say they remain concerned. >> we need a reset. we need a course correction. we've got to acknowledge that this was not just one bad night. >> let's bring in former white house director of communications for president obama jennifer palmieri and former republican

strategist and republican mitt romney and presidential campaign stuart stevens. it's great to have both of you on, because both of you know i say what's on my mind. i piss everybody off. i'm not on any president or former president's christmas card list. stuart, i want to go to you. i hear these people say, oh, well, we've seen this for the past two, three years. there are all these reports and the media should have reported this. listen, if i've gone and talked to the president, which i've done a lot, and i saw anything like this, i'd tell the president the next day. i'd tell the president, i'm so sorry, mr. president, but this isn't working. i've had conversations with him late at night. i had a conversation late at

night with him this week. i've never seen anything that gave me pause, which i guess, though, asks the bigger question, what happened last thursday night, and what should democrats do about it? >> you make a really good point. republicans meet with president biden all the time. if they were coming out of these meetings and they could credible say he seemed lost, he wasn't there, they would be saying it. they thought he was going to be so good in the debate, that they were pre-spinning that he was on drugs. it doesn't parse. he had a bad debate. i've been involved in a lot of debate preps. once they go south, they go south. it was a bad time to have a bad night. it's june. now you move on. the last time a white house held onto the party without

incumbentcy was 1988. i think if everybody takes a deep breath here, on the other side you have a guy who is calling for the trial and conviction for treason of which the penalty is murder for the daughter of a former republican vice president and former member of congress. it's outrageous that republicans are not out there defending liz cheney and calling out donald trump for this extraordinary accusation and call. >> by the way, again, we've said here and i certainly said last friday after the debate that joe biden needed to consider the possibility of getting out of the race, that there should be time, the president should be given the time to make that decision. i think they're still going through that process right now.

again, we should sit back, give him time to make the decision. that said, though, jen palmieri, again, it's fascinating that republicans are so concerned about this. you know, you know, just, just melting down over it when, in fact, they have got a guy who has talked about the trial for treason and execution of liz cheney, talked about executing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, talked about being a dictator from day one, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. then you've got joe biden, bad night, terrible night, worst night in debate history, no doubt about it, yet at the same time in the last 3 1/2 years the strongest economy in the world, strongest dollar in 50 years, strongest alliances in the history of nato, and i could go on and on and on.

i don't mind them being offended and deeply disturbed by what they saw last wednesday night with joe biden. i'm just concerned why they aren't disturbed by a guy going about calling for treason against his enemies, even generals. >> we democrats wring our hands. we've been accused of being too soft. but we don't -- the fact that on our side we're taking a moment to say, oh, okay, what happened here? you know, interested to see the abc news interview tonight and how the president does there, how he does in the campaign. there's the big nato summit next week. to put thursday night in context and understand what we're really dealing with here, that's the responsible thing to do. i think it really brings to the fore that it's beyond hypocrisy,

but the real danger brings into relief what they do and continue to prop him up. the military tribunals thing about liz cheney, given the supreme court ruling on immunity, justice sotomayor's dissent where she talked about all the things that would be considered official acts that he would be immune from, i'm actually terrified by it. >> well, everybody should be. cheney should be. everybody else said he's threatened. mark milley, the general who's given his life to this country, a lot of people in the media he's threatened, said he's coming after, got good reason to be concerned. reverend al, stuart, as he often does, brings some some great points. the republicans were so concerned that he was going to turn in a good performance, president biden, they talked

about him being on cocaine, mountain dew, red bull, saying he was crushing up adderall, was going to snort it, because time and time again he got the best of them and the last couple state of the union addresses. even the "wall street journal" article, which of course, they're patting themselves on the back. there was a story to write about joe biden. they didn't write that story. instead they went to kevin mccarthy who said on this certain date that biden was great and he was great in the meetings and he told his staff members that biden was a tough negotiator. again, all of this blanking monday morning quarterback, oh, the press should have done this, the press should have done that. okay, well, i had a story, i would have told everybody here. if the republicans had a clear story, if the "wall street journal" had a clear story, they would have credited somebody

other than kevin mccarthy, who actually contradicted what he told his own staff earlier. so, again, it's not to say last thursday night wasn't a disturbing night. it was. i guess the question is, question is, what does biden need to do to explain away thursday night, and what does he need to do to move forward with the confidence of democratic thought leaders and political leaders like you as well as the elected officials in the party? >> i think he needs to do what he's beginning to do today. he needs to go back out to the american people. he's going to wisconsin today. he's doing the interview with stephanopoulos. he's going to have a rigorous schedule. he needs to let the american people see him and know that he's fine.

i think what is so disingenuous is not only the "wall street journal" story, which clearly contradicts what had been said in the past by kevin mccarthy to his own staff, is democrats saying this is not just a one off thing, there's been signs before. why didn't you tell us about these signs before? where did these signs come from? as you said, the republicans were telling us he was high on something and high energy. nobody warned this was coming. so all of a sudden, stuart, we get all of these people that said i saw something wrong after the fact. none of them said this before the fact. democrats who are now running for the hills, some democrats, donors, some, and republicans. i've been around a president as much as anybody that needs a civil rights organization. i've never seen any signs. so, stuart, where do these signs

come from, and what responsibility do the people who have sought these so-called signs tell us before a bad debate? >> look, it seems to me there's something sort of odd here. the question is, is joe biden qualified to be president? now, that was a fair question in december 2020. who knows? you never know about somebody who's elected president, whether they'd be up to it. here we are three years into this, and what do we have? we have probably the most successful first-term president since world war ii. we have a guy who built an international coalition that is about the business of saving the world and ukraine. you have someone who has passed these bills that all of these republicans are running on now. serious question, is there any republican running for reelection who is running an ad or talking about a bill that they voted for? i don't think so. they're all up there like jd vance saying the infrastructure

act, they did the clean up of the lakes, it's the best accomplishment he has. and he voted against it! look, i've been involved in a lot of campaigns. a lot of people thought george bush should get out after he lost new hampshire by 19 points. the only thing you can do is go forward and prove that you're capable. you can't talk your way out of this. you just have to go forward and do the job, and people will calm down. >> stuart, let's ask this question. and democrats may not want to hear from me as an independent and former republican, may not want to hear from you, but i don't really care, because we republicans, when we were republicans, we used to know how to win elections and used to know how to sideline the crazies. so, stuart, let me ask you, what do democrats need to do? >> look, i think democrats need

to rally around president bush. see, it proves i'm capable of being president. i just named the wrong president. president biden. this kind of blood in the water panic is never good in a campaign. >> never. >> it's easy to be for your guy when you have good nights. you prove yourself when you have a bad night. everybody has bad nights. don't give me, this was historically bad. it was a bad debate. but he's a very successful president. forget about the business of trying to show what the stakes are in this race. i think the higher the stakes are -- and they're astro nomically high -- probably conclusively higher than any in our lifetime, joe. that's what this is about. you have a successful president. rally around him. use the power of incumbency,

walk around with a little swagger, they're wrong, you're right, go out and take it. >> just following up, it was a bad debate performance. we've had time and time again when joe biden was told he needs to get out of the race. i remember after the first debate in '84, ronald reagan started talking about driving up the pacific coast highway and got lost. i was in front of the tv set going, what's going on? reagan came back. he steadied himself. i don't know if people remember the first debate george bush had with john kerry. he'd ask for extra time and he'd go, "it's hard, it's hard." there was a meltdown there. he's not going to win. of course he did. barack obama in cleveland in 2012. you know, it has happened in the past and people have gone onto

win. so what does joe biden need to do, one? and, two, what should democrats do? >> i think we should have some humility about predicting how, first of all, diagnosing what is happening with the president, a, and then, b, predicting how the american people are going to react to what they saw on thursday night, followed by what they will see tonight and the coming couple of weeks, right? because i have certainly been wrong in predicting how the american people are going to react to joe biden before in 2020. >> and, jen, what about 2022? we had everybody that came on our show, red wave, red wave, red wave, right wingers making fun of joe biden, there's no way democracy and abortion are going to carry the night in 2022. red wave. we kept seeing, i don't see a red wave. and then in 2020 after iowa and new hampshire, joe biden's going to lose, he's got to get out of the race, what a loser, et cetera. we've heard it time and time

again. i'll say this. i know stuart will agree with me, the rev will agree with me. you never know what's going to happen in politics. i saw it in my own political career. even this debate, the white house after the debate was saying, well, independents were really turned off by donald trump. oh my god, they're spinning me. and then you see -- i have no idea why. you want to know how weak of a candidate donald trump is? joe biden, after that performance, picked up independents. donald trump lost independents, according to the "new york times" sienna poll and other polls because they hated him so much. that's an opening. >> right. so now he has to prove himself, right. he has to prove himself. tonight, the abc interview, there's campaigning this

weekend. there needs to be more interviews, more press conferences. you've got to have enough data to show that thursday night debate was a one-off, that is not how he normally is. that's going to take a couple of weeks for him to meet that bar. then in a couple weeks we'll also see how the public is absorbing this and what they're making of the subsequent appearances. right now we're in suspended animation, and nothing really matters until we see how he does tonight. >> as the rev would tell us all, he's like a new pastor. he's still got a lot to prove to the congregation. former republican strategist stuart stevens, thank you, as always. i hope you come back really soon. >> thank you. coming up, it was a historic defeat for the conservatives. i mean, historic. we thought it was going to be their worst turnout since 1832.

worse than that. britain's labour party wins in a crushing landslide victory. we're going to have the latest from the united kingdom as they welcome their new prime minister. that's coming up next on "morning joe." "morning joe."

for the first time since 2010, the united kingdom is no longer under conservative rule. earlier today, labour leader keir starmer assumed power after a crushing election victory over former prime minister rishi sunak's conservative party yesterday. let's bring in raf sanchez live from 10 downing street in london. i have got to say, raf, if you listened to former prime minister sunak's concession speech and you then listened to keir starmer's acceptance speech, you could be forgiven to think you were in like 1950s

america, where dignity, grace, respect for one another still ruled the day. it was actually quite a display by both gentlemen following just a historic crushing landslide. >> reporter: joe, it is so, so striking as an american here in london. just hours after the polls closed in that historic election here in the united kingdom, we watched a peaceful and an orderly transfer of power happening here at downing street. as you said, outgoing conservative prime minister rishi sunak, whose party went down to just an absolutely crushing defeat, the worst in two centuries, he came out here. he apologized to the british people for the shortcomings of his government. he went down the road to buckingham palace and gave his

resignation to king charles. just an hour later, britain's new prime minister keir starmer, fresh off that landslide election victory, the biggest in this country since tony blair back in 1997. he arrived here. the sun briefly came out. his supporters were arrayed on downing street. there was cheers, and he gave a sober speech, saying that public service is something to be desired. he says the work of change begins immediately. and he went through that black door with his wife to begin forming his cabinet. now, the last piece of choreography we were expecting at some point later today is that the new prime minister will speak to president biden. starmer is the leader of a progressive party, but he has dragged his party back from the far, far left as it was in 2019. just behind me, you can see angela raynor.

she is keir starmer's deputy. she is just walking into downing street. we don't know exactly what position she is going to hold in the british government, but it's very likely that she is going to be deputy prime minister. over the course of the day, we will see the new defense secretary, the new foreign secretary, the new home secretary coming here and being formally given their posts by their new boss. starmer, his party in 2019 went down to its own historic event led by the very, very hard left wing jeremy corbin. he really dragged his party back to the center grounds, and he has promised to govern as a centrist. as far as foreign policy, he aligns closely with president biden. he is a real champion of nato. we expect him next week at the nato summit hosted by the president. he has strong views on arming ukraine, so very compatible with president biden, but at extreme

odds with a second-term donald trump. we asked his campaign manager, does keir starmer, who is something of a technocrat, not a man brimming with charisma, does he have what it takes to stand up to trump on the world stage. his campaign manager said starmer will do what it takes to stand up for the values he believes. it's kind of interesting, starmer grew up in a working class family, but in this country he is formally known as sir keir, because he was knighted by prince charles back in 2014. he is the first knight to lead britain in 60 years. his biographer tells us it is not something he is particularly comfortable with, but it is a little bit of trivia on this historic, historic day in the united kingdom. joe. >> nbc's raf sanchez, as always, thank you so much. live from london. we greatly appreciate it.

let's bring in ian brimmer and the britain editor of "the economist" andrew palmer. ian, an earthquake, just a political earthquake, we expected it, but just a historic loss for the torys. what does it mean? >> when you look at labour's percentages, they didn't perform all that differently from 2019, about 34%, just under they achieved in the final vote as opposed to 22 back in 2019. it goes to show what you need to do is run a campaign that works for your electoral system. the same way people in the u.s. say, well, you got 7 million more votes in the general. it doesn't matter, the system doesn't work that way. what happened here is the torys fell apart. they lost an election that was

largely about incompetence. it wasn't who was on the left or the right. it was about people who weren't capable to run the government. also nigel farage's reform party failed eight times to get a seat. they were able to take 14% of the vote and really take away large numbers of conservatives. in fact, it looks like about two-thirds of the seats lost by the torys were because of nigel farage. it's going to be a massive identity crisis for the torys. certainly this is a big election and this is a very substantial majority for keir starmer. >> i know it doesn't sound romantic, andrew, in these days of social media and 30-second tv ads, but it is a revolution for

a technocrat. this guy talked about ruling with humility. he talked about how labour was not going to be driven by ideology. he said country first, party second. and then said something that those of us who have been following donald trump since 2015 never heard from him, which is, if you voted against me, keir starmer said, know that i will work for you, i will work hard, i will do what it takes to represent you the best i can. it's a crushing blow, as the headlines are saying, for the tory party, but at the same time quite a win for a moderate technocrat. >> yes. it's been quite a nice reversion, actually. we've had in britain five prime ministers in seven years. we've had chaos in governance since 2016, which was when the

country voted to leave the eu. and we've had a succession of sort of increasingly bizarre administrations on the tory side. now the country had opted for a staid, relatively boring centrist, someone who is interested in how things work as much as what he wants to get done, whose background is in the public service. he was the director of public prosecutions here and who talks about the politics of duty, who talks about the exhaustion with populist politics and wanting to bring back a politics that treads lightly on people's lives. so it is a change in tone. there are some examples for sort of post populist politics in what starmer has done to wrench his party from the far left back into something which is much more electable and which has delivered this very big majority today. >> so, ian, people waking up not following european politics

closely may ask the question why is it that france, germany, the rest of europe seems to be darting to a populist right and britain is moving left. why is that? >> it's not really about which way they're heading ideologically. it's about the incumbency not having strength. think about migration. think about inflation. then think about disinformation. you have these three strong factors that are driving people to say we do not want the people that are governing. we think our system is run by people that are not legitimate and don't represent us. and we saw that in a big way in germany, not just because schultz is doing badly, but also the far right, led by someone we consider a fascist, not only did well in east germany, but also in the wealthy north. in france, macron has gotten absolutely pummelled by the far

right and the far left. the far left is doing better right now than macron's party. the only way they're going to keep the far right out is because of a deal between the centrists and the far left, something that conservatives in the u.k. were unable and unwilling to do with the far right in their own country. now in the u.k. you have a decisive repudiation of the conservatives who have governed for years now in favor of the outsiders. the outsiders are kind of not very exciting centrists that will run, i think, a confident government. but what really is the message here is throw out the guys that we don't like. you know, joe, coming after the pandemic where you have this enormous amount of fiscal spend and everyone's lives were disrupted, there is a massive hangover. that money has run out. inflation is high.

people are moving from country to country again, and you've got a whole bunch of leaders around the world that are holding the bag for that. that also happened in south africa with a homework loss for ramaphosa. a shock for india. modi now has a coalition government. anything is a tough message for the u.s. in november. that's probably it. >> andrew, what does it mean for britain's foreign policy? >> i don't think it means an awful lot, actually. basically starmer has presented himself as a centrist. he's very keen to repudiate the legacy of jeremy corbin, his predecessor as the leader of the labour party. corbin was a pacifist and very

skeptical about nato. starmer is going to talk about the alliance, talk about the importance of arming ukraine. he will move towards a more constructive relationship with europe, although he is not going to charge back into the arms of the european union. there is still a big fracture in britain over brexit, and no party is particularly willing to poke that bear. i think what you will see is a more normal relationship with europe and a pretty steady relationship with the u.s. even with the possibility of a changing president in november. >> andrew palmer and ian bremer, thank you both so much. greatly appreciate it. coming up, former u.s.

attorney, pete has a look at a new album next on "morning joe." a new album next on "morning joe." (bell ringing) someone needs to customize and save hundreds with liberty mutual! (inaudible sounds) (elevator doors opening) wait, there's an elevator? only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪

i know you love your dada. of course he loves you, he just doesn't show it on his face. or with his body language. [ cooing ] ♪ sweet child of mine ♪

pop! [ screams ] ♪♪ ♪ in my mind i shine a light to help me find my vital signs, open up, the stars align before i say my last good-bye ♪ ♪ on my own, on my own ♪ that is the new video, music video from artist z shawn d for his song titled "on my own." the track is off of his upcoming third studio album "o say, can

you see." it's inspired by the events of the covid-19, january 6th and roe v. wade. one of the main things on the album is the idea of social justice, which is fitting. the producer is the former prosecutor for the southern district of new york, preet baa har ra. >> good to be here. >> good to have you here. let me ask you, ze, as you saw the, as i said in the opening, you were inspired by certain events. what was the message you hope that comes out of this that kind of brings all of these events that inspired you together? is there a thread that runs through all of these events that

inspired you to make this album? >> well, i think that the thread that exists is the oppression of human beings. i think all throughout history there has always been an economic, political and social incentive to suppress people. it's just too profitable. and that's become sort of part of the human condition. so i feel like that's always the sort of thing that's lurking in the background. but when i started writing the songs, i was living in the south bronx with my wife, who was a first responder during covid. and this is the part of new york that burned down in the '70s. so to be in that space and to sort of feel the ashes around me while it felt like our society was coming apart, it definitely

inspired creativity. i was out of a job, you know? so i had to do something. i had to write. >> that will inspire you, being out of a job. >> talk, if you will, zeshan, about how important it is as you're sending your message out through your music, how important it is that the music's kind of the hook. if people want to hear just commentary, they'll turn on cable news. but the importance of -- do you write differently when you're putting out a message? do you -- how do you approach the song? how do you approach the project differently as an artist? >> well, you know, i think that we have a lot of rhetoric out there today. and the great thing about music is it expresses where words fall

short, i think the music can kind of pick it up, right? >> yeah, absolutely. >> when i was growing up, i used to sing in gospel choir. it was my escape. it was my way of -- it was my way of expressing myself. there is a theme of justice and a desire for deliverance that is sort of part and parcel with that type of music, and i've incorporated that in my music as well. >> preet, tell me about your involvement in this and how you first got involved with zeshan. >> so i met zeshan 2 1/2 years ago. from time to time you meet somebody and you feel like you've known them your whole life. the thing about zeshan was not necessarily the message and substance of his music, but let me tell you this guy has got a voice from the heavens.

you heard some of it earlier. you'll hear more of it. i hope people will download the album. then i got to know him and understand how he thinks about the world, how he thinks about justice, how he thinks about some of the issues i've spent my life and career thinking about, it occurred to me that we might collaborate. i think the world needs more music. you said earlier, man does not live by msnbc alone. >> that's right. >> the producers and management won't like my saying that. we talk about politics, we talk about the supreme court, all of us do that all the time. there are other ways to talk about these things, and maybe sometimes you want to sing about them. i started posting on twitter at the beginning of the week, every evening posting someone replied read the room, preet. i guess the point being that we have such dangerous things going on in our country that we don't have the time and energy and inclination to think about music and i disagree. i've read the room and the room

needs more music. it needs more music of the type zeshan is putting out. >> i'm always fascinating by people who believe that one side or the other owns music or if things are serious we don't need music, it seems to me that's the time we actually need music the most. we need art the most. we need those things that lift us up, that round off the sharp edges, that bring us together, right? >> absolutely. i don't mean to be overly dramatic, but one of my favorite quotes is he once said on his epitaph he wanted it to be written music was the only proof he needed that god exists, and that may be slightly overstating it, but not by much. >> this is further proof that preet -- >> go ahead this is further proof that preet and i are soul brothers. last night i was reading cat's cradle by kurt vonnegut. this cat sends me a quote by

kurt vonnegut and i was reading him last night. >> not many people call me cat. >> that's been a fun part of this collaboration too. just don't call me an alley cat. >> yeah, exactly. thank you guys so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> this project is so inspiring and it just sounds beautiful. the new album you need to download it, it's tiled "o say can you see. it's out july 26th. executive producer preet bharara, and musician zeshan. coming up, sam morel is one of the fastest rising standups on the comedy scene. he's hilarious. he joins us next with a preview of his upcoming prime video special. we're back in two minutes. o special. we're back in two minutes. e cusn and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective.

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hook up with someone from another country, that's a different energy, right? i was with this woman from

argentina. some stuff is lost in translation when this happens. right before we sleep together, she goes this i would surely regret and i was like, i wonder what that means. it's so interesting to be around other cultures, but. >> that was a look at the new standup special titled "sam morril, you've changed." in it the new york native recounts his most memorable experiences on public transit, what it's like dating in his 30s, and even his unique thoughts on the presidential election, and sam joins us now. sam, i just -- i got to start with this quote because it's most relevant. it is gallows humor. on a trump versus biden rematch, trump versus biden is kind of like a drunk driver versus someone who keeps falling asleep at the wheel. the point is you ain't getting home. >> yeah, yeah, that's what i said. that was kind of like grandpa simpson versus mr. burns the other night, that was pretty dark, right? doesn't make you feel great

about the state of -- it'd be funny if it wasn't happening to our country, but here we are. >> right. we're here, we're here. so you have such a unique look at so many different things. i will say one of the things -- one of your comparisons were guns and babies. now, this is something i must admit, i think some crazy stuff in my head throughout the day just wandering. i never put the parallel of guns and babies together, but you do it masterfully. explain. >> both are easy to hate, but then you hold one, and you're like i kind of get it, you know. both annoying on airplanes. if you're dating someone new and they have either, it could be a problem. you know, and both could be in a school soon. >> yeah. yeah. exactly. exactly. let's take a look at the clip from the special where sam recounts an unsettling

experience on the new york city subway. >> i was on the subway the other day in new york. i accidentally made eye contact with a crazy person. that's a terrible moment. as a man, that the closest you come to feeling like a woman in a bar. you're like, oh, no, we locked eyes and now he's coming toward me, which is not what i wanted. [ laughter ] he sits next to me on the train, puts his hand on my leg. there's nothing you can say. you can't be like oh, i don't like that when people do that. i don't feel safe right now so i get up, i walk away. i put my hand on the pole. he follows me. he's just staring at me. everyone on the train is watching. they're not watching like they're going to help. they're watching like thank god he chose you. that could have been a problem. >> sam, did you model your comedy act, your standup act after any of the legendary standup comedians that we've known down through the years, or is this in your mind a new

innovation, new generation. i'm going to do my own thing. >> i mean, you know, when you're starting, i think you're always doing an impression of someone else in any form of entertainment. as you keep going you hopefully become you, i would hope, you know, and i don't know if you know my comedy, i feel like al sharpton would be a sam morril fan. i don't know why. >> absolutely. >> i remember justin bieber got a lot of crap when he went to anne frank's house, and in his book he said i think she would have been a belieber. >> anne frank, al sharpton, babies, guns, it all gets kind of random. >> i think he'd like the special, i really do. >> i'm going to love the special, i mean, the second it's on man, i'm going to prime video and watching. this is great stuff. i love what you talk about consequences, i mean, consequences, we all face certain consequences, but you talk about how the consequences of being drunk changes as you

get older. could you educate our audience on exactly what some of those consequences are for you? >> well, you know, it's not as bad as when you're older. i drink now, i know my limits. when i was young, i would black out and i'd wake up like what did i say to that girl last night. now i wake up hung oifr and did i sign up for paramount plus last night? it's not that big of a deal. you know, it's fine. >> paramount plus, peacock, i always blame the wrong stuff. >> exactly. i had an upset stomach the other day and i told my friend, and he was like -- i was like, man, it was because of that chicken sandwich. i ate. he said i watched you have nine vodkas last night. i could wake up in a dumpster. i shouldn't have had that spinach egg white omelet, that's what did me in, you know. the new standup special, sam morril, you've changed. it starts streaming on july 9th on prime video, and i guarantee you reverend al and i will both

be watching. we're going to have a watch party together. >> two new fans. >> that's right. >> i was told mika was going to be here. what happened? i wanted to meet mika. >> you can't get everybody. >> two out of three. >> i wanted willie too. i got two out of four, though, that's pretty cool. >> well, you sound kind of disappointed, sam, i'm not going to lie. >> no, no, no, i'm very happy. >> wherever i go, i show up at places and people are like, it's very good to meet you, joe. where's mika? >> but that means you did well. >> i did very well. i did very well. >> yeah. >> and you did very well too and we're going to see how well you did on july the 9th. i know it's going to be a huge hit. thank you so much. >> all right, and that does it for us this morning. thank you guys so much for watching. richard lui picks up the coverage in 30 seconds.