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good afternoon. i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. welcome to a special edition of "deadline: white house" on what is being viewed as a critical day in the biden presidency. the president just wrapping up remarks at a campaign stop in the crucial swing state of wisconsin. >> you probably heard, we had a little debate last week. can't say it was my best performance. there's been a lot of speculation, what's joe going to do? is he going to stay in the race? is he going to drop out? what's he going to do? well, here's my answer. i am running and going to win again! let me say this clearly as i can. i'm staying in the race. i'll beat donald trump. i will beat him again in 2020.

by the way, we're going to do it again in 2024. >> president biden vowing to fight on and stay in the race, despite questions about the viability of his candidacy after his performance in the debate against trump. >> you probably also noticed a lot of discussion about my age. i know i look 40. i keep seeing all those stories about i'm being too old. let me say something. if i was too old -- i wasn't too old to create over 15 million new jobs, to make sure 21 million americans are insured under the affordable care act, to beat big pharma, the first one to ever do that and lower the cost, too old to relieve student debt for nearly 5 million americans in a growing

economy, too old to put the first black woman on the supreme court of the united states, to sign the respect for marriage act. was i too old to sign the most significant gun safety bill in the world? to pass the biggest climate bill in the history of the world. >> president biden sitting down for a tv interview, which many supporters view as the most important of his presidency. his campaign is trying to project confidence, announcing a $15 million ad blitz and more travel for biden. many democrats still have doubts about whether he should stay in the race. and the anxiety is fuelled by biden's continued verbal stumbles in public, including in a radio interview yesterday. >> by the way, i'm proud to be, as i said, the first vice president, the first black woman, to serve with a black

president. proud of the first black woman in the supreme court. >> now, some of biden's detractors are playing hard ball with the all-important campaign resource, money. top donors are withholding money in what's being dubbed a dem bar guo and putting $100 million in an escrow fund to support whichever candidate replaces biden. all of this underscores the differences between republicans and democrats today. as "the new york times" peter baker explains, after mr. trump was found guilty of 34 felonies, there was no significant ground swell within the republican party to force him out, adding, even though many republican office holders and strategists privately loathe him, they fell in line. joining me now, molly -- political strategist and professor at columbia university. good afternoon to both of you. peter baker's point is valid.

whatever has been going on -- and there are people who find the discussions in the last week and a half to be distasteful -- they are coming from a party of people who are trying to figure out the right way to defeat donald trump. we're not sure what the answer is still. >> right. i think some people are good faith actors here who are saying, like, the biggest, most existential threat, this could be our last election, right? this is the do you want to have elections election. so, we need to go with the army that can win, right? that's a good -- but it's not clear, i think, in this short time what that army is. >> right. >> and i think there's a real possibility that joe biden can show us, as he's doing and trying to do and will be doing with this incredibly important interview happening very soon, that he can do that, in which case i think the party will rally with him. and i think that's, sort of, where we are. there have also been really bad

faith actors who never liked him or who, you know -- there's been a lot of noise. and, again, this is ultimately really a decision -- you know, this man did -- you know, he ran for president because he really thought he was the only person who could beat donald trump, and he did. >> i think a lot of people require to make them feel a little more comfortable is both a strong performance, like we saw today, a strong performance in the interview today, probably several more like that. but a strategy, an acknowledgment by the campaign which i have not yet seen, that we understand that there's a problem here and we've got a way to deal with this. >> i think you've heard a bit of that. and i think he himself, biden himself, is acknowledging that on the campaign. and maybe what they do going forward is put him in these environments where it looks like he's actually getting energy and thriving, like this -- like what you just saw. >> playing off the crowd the way

he was. >> as some people say, he's on teleprompter. i don't care if he's on teleprompter. if he needs to be on teleprompter, if he were to perform his best, put him on the teleprompter. let the circus, including the vice president, go out and do the persuasion with the donors, with the constituencies. do it that way so it's tiered and you're not putting everything on his shoulders. that's what concerns me. you have a lot of people saying, we should turn this new direction. you have a member of congress talking, yeah, we like the vice president, but there are other governors around. this is not a time for experimentation. you're asking the party to do something that it is not, be the machine it has been. >> it's an important conversation. >> they were intentional about being decentralized, more grass roots, right? the party's not going to do that. you want it to be unified in a way it hasn't been asked to be? a very long time around an issue like this. >> the average voter doesn't register that. they say, okay, i've got to vote for somebody.

your mechanics are not my problem. but there is a mechanics problem. if you would like to have a conversation with the democratic party about fixing itself and becoming that machine again. but that's not happening between now and november. >> right. >> no. and i think basel has a really good point here. it's not that democratic party. but what is good is that this decentralized democratic party has learned a lot from 2016. so, you see leadership does not want a bernie, hillary division in the party. so, i do think as much as there isn't a ton of leadership, you have people like hakeem, you have people who are, you know, chuck schumer, who are there to lead. and they -- and i think the number one anxiety here, this election, these are states that none of us have ever seen in our lives. so, i think the ultimate goal is to have a unified party. >> and a quick point about the stakes. as much hang wringing is going on about joe biden's -- president biden's -- performance

and his age, the republicans are using raw, brazen power to get what they want. if you go to a republican right now and say what about donald trump and his convictions? what convictions? what trial? they'll call up a leader like clarence thomas and say, hey, fix this. >> viewers get used to the fact that i usually come with biden results. this is 900 pages. this is -- the title is "mandate for leadership." but that's not what we know this as. this is project 2025. these are actually the stakes. so, you've got joe biden, who might feel a little old or this. >> no more department of education. >> yeah. >> regulation for ivf. i mean -- >> dangers about the -- about contraceptives, let alone -- abortion is off the table. >> you're not going to be able to get the pill in the mail. and a federal government that is

largely an arm of the trump campaign. >> but basel, what do you need to tell -- for people who really -- there are some people who are existentially fearful about democracy, as they should be in this election. and their argument is, if joe biden's not the best guy to defeat donald trump, what should happen next? >> well, if there is a conversation, hopefully it's more internal, not external, that there needs to be a change, you have a sitting vice president who's extraordinarily qualified. so, we should be talking -- the first and last thing out of your mouth should be kamala harris, point blank. so, what i think would happen at that point, and there's actually reporting that suggests this already happened, the donors will unify, the voters will, the state parties will. you go to convention, there's a delicate conversation that needs to happen. there's a real operation that needs to take place to make this kind of change. what you want is a unified party that says, he's going to take a

seat. this person's going to elevate. and we are riding with this person to the very end. and if you do that in a way that shows the american people -- this is going back to what the voter see. the voters don't want to see your conversation you're having in your head spill out on camera. what they want to see is a party that -- like what they saw with hakeem jeffries during speaker race, right? >> right, right, right. every single time, boom. hakeem jeffries up. >> they want to see that kind of unification. >> here's the problem. 115 million people roughly voted in the last election. not all of whom identify as republicans or democrats. about 100 million people didn't vote. the bigger problem might be people who were sitting on their hands, who are going to sit on their hands, who are now saying, joe biden is giving me more reason to sit on my hands. they are going to be the ones that need to be persuaded that that joe biden we just watched is the joe biden you're going to get. >> the good news, right, about

this debate was that it was two things. one, that it was in june. and two, that it was -- that donald trump -- even though joe biden's gaffes and his performance became the main talking point of it, the independent voter who is watched donald trump were like, we don't want this again. this is very dark. there was really a feeling of trump amnesia. the answer is the longer we talk about the democrat -- biden and harris and what the ticket looks like, the more democrats are losing, right? because this needs to be -- >> because we're not talking about the 50-plus lies -- and even when he's telling the truth. the lies are one thing. the truth telling is just as dangerous about the things that he -- that donald trump -- is planning to do to america. >> and this needs to be a referendumn donald trump. democrats will win this. most normal people don't want this. they don't want to live in "the handmaid's tail."

there's a reason that's a dystopia. >> about a week ago i had a conversation with jamie raskin who said -- i want to know if you think this is true. he said, what you're seeing in the democratic party right now is the sign of a healthy political party. that might have been optimistic, but is that true? is this debate healthy? >> i think the conversation about who else could be there in place of joe biden is healthy because it shows there's a bench. it shows there has been a period of nurturing and growing and building new, younger leadership that's ready to take over. we saw that on the debate stage back in 2020. so, yeah, i actually do think that the fact that we can talk about others is very healthy, the fact that those others might bring a different perspective is healthy because of what i said before, that if you have -- if you look on the other side and you'd say to a republican, what about -- what about donald trump? what about these cases? they're like, what are you talking about? because they are so in lock step

with donald trump and are afraid to make a different decision that doesn't include him, whereas on the democratic side, even as we're talking about it, even as -- infuriated is a sign that you can have these conversations. but there's still a path forward. >> at least i'll take a sign that it's not a cult. >> i will add that democrats have popular policies. trump has just -- republicans just have trump, right? they don't have policy platform. they don't have anything. they have this guy who's running basically to stay out of jail, right? that's what will hurd said about him. and democrats have policies that are popular. they have what most americans want, which is this, sort of, normal political life. it's not just about one person. it's really about an idea. >> thanks to both of you. i appreciate it. i think i'm seeing you in the next hour, molly. basel, thank you. coming up, a very revealing

twist from the trump campaign, which is now claiming no knowledge about the controversial and antidemocratic plans for a second trump term, like the 900 pages that's sitting in front of me on this desk. plus new insights into the strength of the american economy and how that could affect the election. and later, why critics say conservatives on the supreme court are enabling trump extremism. all those stories and more. don't go anywhere. (♪♪) bounce back fast from heartburn with tums gummy bites, and love food back. (♪♪) when i think about purpose, i don't know if st. jude donors realize the magnitude of what they are doing. their donations are funding the research. the research is allowing for the treatments to happen.

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paving the way for what axios calls donald trump's imperial presidency in a potential second term, granting sitting presidents broad immunity from crimes. the three liberal justices lamenting the ruling, giving the president the power of a king. trump's maga allies now bolstering the project 2025, which is a 900 page blueprint for the next trump presidency by the right wing think tank, promising to, quote, defeat the anti-american left. the foundation's president this week taking it a step further. >> we are going to win. we're in the process of taking this country back. we are in the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless, if the left allows it to be. >> already suggesting a war, a proposed plan, which i have here on my table includes expanding presidential powers even more, restructuring the department of

justice, purging federal government employees, replacing them with tens of thousands of trump loyalists, dismantling the department of education, banning abortion medication. that's just a start. the project's leader telling "the new york times," quote, patriots are committed to peaceful revolution at the ballot box, end quote. trump making his con tro verse y'all plans known, promising revenge and retribution if he becomes the next president. >> if you're president again, will you lock people up? >> well, i'll give you an example. the answer is you have no choice because they're doing it to us. when this election is over, based on what they've done, i would have every right to go after them. and it's easy because it's joe biden and you see all the criminality. sometimes revenge can be justified. i have to be honest. sometimes it can. >> threatening prosecution of his political rivals, a scary notion, especially now that he

would have broad, unchecked power. voters need to listen very carefully to what he's saying. all indications show a second trump term would be substantially more efficient in executing these problematic plans. joining me now is -- history professor at new york university and emily -- legal writer for "the new york times" magazine. good afternoon to both of you. ruth, i've taken to carrying around project 2025 so people can see it's big. it has one of those weirdly misleading names. it's called mandate for leadership. but it's full of little pearls like this. they don't even hide it. it's very, very clear what the plan is. weirdly, donald trump has said today that he didn't write this, he wasn't involved in it. i don't think it comes as a surprise to you that donald trump didn't write a 900-page policy manual. this is an outline of what you're going to get if you vote for donald trump. >> yes. it has a deceptively neutral

name, "project 2025: mandate for leadership." but it is a blueprint to transform america into an autocracy. and actually it's a credit to the free press that trump is trying to step back and say he has nothing to do with it because what has come out is a recipe for a repressive rule and catastrophe on a truly authoritarian scale. trump himself on the subject of deportations, trump himself gave that interview to "time" magazine where he talked about deporting 20 million undocumented immigrants. and that is, like, between 4 and 5% of the american population. it is more than the entire population of cuba or greece or sweden. so, the scale of the destruction and the chaos that will result is truly frightening. so, of course he's trying to

separate himself and say he has nothing to do with it. >> let's talk about that for a second, emily. it's a strange tweet or post that donald trump put up. he said, i know nothing about project 2025. i have no idea who is behind it. i disagree with some of the things they're saying, and some of the things they're saying are absolutely ridiculous and abyss mall. i wish them luck, but i have nothing to do with them. the first sentence, i know nothing about project 2025. okay. let's take him at his word. he knows nothing about project 2025. i have no idea who is behind it. then he goes on to say, i disagree with some of the things they're saying and some of the things they're saying are ridiculous and abysmal. this is trump logic. i don't know what it is, i don't know what it's about, and yet i disagree with it. he's taking us for fools. >> well, he's denying and then

he has plausible deniability because this statement will get repeated. then the plans in project 2025 are still out there as a signal to allies on the right who want this kind of agenda. and he can, kind of, have it both ways. and i think we've seen this kind of rhetorical maneuvering from him many times before. and that is a classic trump gesture. you both get the benefits and then you try to spare yourself the extreme consequences from people who think that this kind of plan goes too far for all the reasons that ruth just outlined. >> and ruth, you and i talked about this. one of the things you did while everybody was losing their stuff over the debate is you pointed out that that's actually the magic of what donald trump and his group have done, right? we spend a lot of time talking about the debate performance. and that's not -- i don't think it's wrong or incorrect to have done that. but what we missed out on was the 50 lies or 50+ lies donald

trump told. and when you concentrate on the lies, what you also miss out on is the truth about what he continues to say he's going to do. i don't know what worries you more, that he constantly lies or that there are some truths about what he's promised to do, which will wreck this country. >> i mean, i want to concentrate on what he's going to do and also the bad faith of these people. you're going to have this dance going on. for example, kevin roberts, the head of heritage, you saw in the clip, he's always trying to say he's a conservative and he cites reagan. but he's on bannon's "war room" all the time. he's an extremist. and when he talks about, you know, the revolution will be bloodless if the left allows it to be, and he's speaking as the head of heritage -- now, heritage is a think tank to. my knowledge, they don't have an inhouse paramilitary.

so, he's saying that he's aligned, as head of heritage, with armed entities, whatever they may be, who are going to, on day one -- that's another trigger for me as a historian of people who did enabling acts like hitler. they keep talking about day one. and so there's a lot of things that are being said by trump's allies. and they evoke him. project 2025, you can find statements that its point is to institutionalize trumpism. so, trump can say anything he wants, true or false. but we take the whole picture of what he and his allies are saying together, and that is what we go on. >> so, emily, let's carry on that discussion about kevin roberts, the heritage foundation's president. so, keep in your mind that donald trump has just posted on truth social that he doesn't know what this is, doesn't know who's behind it, and disagrees with some of it.

now let's listen to the president of the heritage foundation. >> president trump is going to make decisions about policy in his administration if he wins. project 2025 is something that's going to transcend the next four years, the next ten years. we're going to fire someone and the number needs to be more than 50,000. abortion is not health care. we need to have the biggest mass deportation system ever in the history of america. >> okay now. so, who are we listening to? he was on our channel having a discussion with our colleagues, my colleagues, about what they're actually going to do if donald trump gets elected. and, again, none of it is -- none of it is not in these 900 pages. kevin roberts at the heritage foundation says, vote for donald trump. this is what you get. donald trump says, i don't know. >> right. and lots of reporting has been done about how heritage and project 2025 are presenting themselves and positioning themselves as laying the groundwork for trump's second

term. you know, you had that clip in there about firing 50,000 federal employees. the idea here is to remove civil service protections for a lot of the federal employees who work in government agencies so that they can all be fired on day one or close to day one. and that would amount to a giant restructuring and repersonnel of the federal government just on its own. i think another thing about this plan is that it has these radical elements in it which then we're all talking about, as we should. then when they don't all roll out during the trump presidency will seem as if, oh, well, he's moderating somewhat, simply because they've shifted the window so far over to the right. >> ruth, tell me what happens right now. we're waiting for an important conversation, an interview that joe biden is going to have. some people think it's very, very important because he needs to show a different face than he showed on the debate, which he's, by the way, done in speeches. he's just come off one in the

last hour which was very vigorous. what has to happen now in order to focus the mind? it may be healthy that some democrats or voters in general are discussing the best way to win the next election and not have donald trump come in, but how do you suggest? how do you distill how we should be thinking about this? >> i think it's really important to focus on outcomes. and you want to do that, whether you're trying to warn people about the dangers of authoritarianism -- that's what i do, and i do it in my book, too -- that they have gone after business, they have ruined economies. but you also want to do it in the positive way that, you know, joe biden may have had a very bad night and people have doubts about his abilities right now and his age, but he has accomplished huge things. the outcomes of the administration, which is not just joe biden. it's kamala harris. it's a huge group of people. it's the whole administration.

americans, civil servants, cabinet officials. all of these people have accomplished these incredible outcomes for the american people, making their lives better at the everyday level. that's what we have to go on because that's what democrats, as a party, deliver, regardless of who is in the white house. >> thanks to both of you. i appreciate your time this afternoon. still ahead, president biden boasting strong jobs numbers, extending a string of economic wins. voters remain mixed on that, however. former labor secretary robert reich is with me next.

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all right. today the american economy is beating expectations again. a brand-new jobs report showing the united states added 206,000 net new jobs in june. this marks the 42nd consecutive month of job growth. the unemployment rate, by the way, which i tend to spend less time on for reasons i've explained in the past, did tick up slightly from 4% to 4.1%, which is still historically low. the stock market reacting to the news rising toward new records, as investors anticipate lower interest rates in the near future. biden supporters say he's been delivering on his economic

promises. but that message isn't breaking through to all voters, as over half of americans disapprove of biden's handling of the economy. many voters view the economy and the cost of living as top issues in the election. they say they're not feeling the effects of bidenomics. >> the economy. everything is so expensive. nobody can afford to live. we need change. >> everything is so much higher than it was two years ago, three years ago. >> i know trump will be much better for our economy. >> people are saying, what has biden done for me? >> a lot of people have to work multiple jobs just to be able to make ends meet. >> joining me now, robert reich, former labor secretary. job creation remains high, wages are increasing at a rate that is higher than inflation. that was not the case for all of the last four years, and that's

where it really gets people, right? if your wages are rising more than inflation is, you can keep a handle on things and feel pretty good. it's when the opposite is true. that's generally speaking not true anymore. >> that's true. it's actually only the last four months, ari, that we've seen real wages adjusted for inflation beating inflation. and so people, although a lot of americans, as you just showed, don't feel that they're doing better. in fact, they are doing better and they will continue to do better, particularly if the fed reduces interest rates. that's very key. because if the fed starts reducing interest rates, as they suggest they're going to do -- powell suggested starting in september -- that, in my view is a little too late to have effect on politics. nevertheless it's going to help a lot of people because there is a problem with mortgages and bank loans, auto loans, and credit card fees.

and as interest rates stay up, all of those stay up as well. >> so, one of the things that this administration would like to convey is that it has emblematic policies that, over time, will prevent us from getting into the situation we were into when we had supply chain issues during covid, we had shortage of microprocessors, of chips. we had, you know, manufacturing issues. these are long-term fixes to complicated problems. but that doesn't resonate that easily with people who arguably say, and correctly say, the price of eggs is still more than it was three years ago and the price of rent is higher than it was three years ago. how do you square those two things? >> well, undoubtedly people live in the present. you can't tell people they're better off than they feel that they are. the administration has been extremely responsible in terms of doing everything you mentioned. also going after big monopolies. i mean, one of the reasons food

prices are so high is that a lot of concentration among grocery chains, groceries, also producers and processors of groceries. nevertheless, the consequences are not going to be before the election in all likelihood. so, you can't very easily say to people, well, you're going to be better off, just trust us. and that's where the whole issue of -- and i think it's very, very central to this campaign and to how you make the choice between biden and trump. it comes down to trust. who do you think is going to do a better job in terms of overall running the country, running the economy? and here we've seen two men who have done it. that is donald trump has tried it and joe biden has tried it. the data are very clear. ari, you know as well as i do that in terms of jobs and wages

and other things that people count on and care about, so far joe biden has done much, much better than donald trump. nevertheless, there is this kind of afterglow. people forget exactly what they endured under trump, and biden has got to make sure they remember. >> so, is it your argument, given that we've only had, sort of, four months of this wage growth that exceeds inflation, that it just takes a while to get used to and at some point people will say, all right, i'm actually earning more than my costs are going up? because the other part of that question is, for some people, depending on where you are in the economic ladder, you are still paying a lot of money for a lot of things? the fundamental inequality in this country means some people's inflation rates are higher than others. >> undoubtedly. and you say fundamental equality. i agree with you 100%. and we could go through the steps that the biden administration has taken. but once again, these are

underlying structural issues. these are long-term problems. the united states didn't suddenly become more unequal. it started in the late 1970s and grew with greater and greater intensity through the first decades of this century. and so biden is not going to change that particular equation any time soon. >> what is the best way -- and you and i have talked about this, and you give good answers, and i keep asking them because i think people have to hear them. what's the way in which, if you are the biden campaign, you can hear these very valid complaints about inequality, about prices being higher despite the fact that wages are increasing faster than inflation, what's the way to hear people even if their data feels incorrect, without being dismissive of them? >> well, i think you have to say to people, you're absolutely right. prices are high. we're doing everything we can to keep them -- get them lower

again. but you are not wrong. you are feeling exactly the way a lot of other americans are feeling. but we are -- and it's not just joe biden. an entire administration the working effectively to try to get prices down by going after the sources of those price increases, like big monopolies, making sure that, in fact, the price of drugs is down because we're using medicare to get the price of drugs down. in fact, we're changing the structure of power in the economy. people don't talk about power very much. but the biden administration has done more than any other democratic administration over the last 50 years to change the structure of power in america. you can't do that overnight. you can't do that even in three years. >> robert reich, good to see you as always. thank you for joining us, former labor secretary, robert reich. renewed hope for a ceasefire

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turning now to the crisis unfolding in the middle east. after weeks of deadlock, ceasefire negotiations between israel and hamas are back on. u.s. officials say they're seeing a promising break through that could bring an end to the fighting and the release of hostages. president biden spoke with israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu by phone yesterday

about the details of this new possible deal. and israeli negotiators travelled to qatar today for the first time in weeks to restart ceasefire talks. but israeli officials tell nbc news that expectations should be lowered. they say it could take weeks before a deal is reached. israel and hamas have been fighting for nearly nine months in gaza. local health officials say more than 38,000 palestinians have been killed since the conflict began. nearly 1,200 israelis were killed as a result of the october 7th attacks. and many have died since. the u.n. reporting more than 1.9 million people in gaza -- that's the overwhelming majority -- almost all gazans have been displaced. many of them living in tents. finding enough food and water has been a daily struggle for them. israel contending the rising violence on its northern border with lebanon, with the iran-backed group hezbollah

firing more than 200 -- into israel. there's a lot going on at exactly the same time right now. let's start with this deal. the reason anybody's hopeful about this is because it appears that the conversations that have been going on between hamas using its surrogates, qatar and egypt, and the israelis and the americans, seem to have reached a level of detail about how they're going. that's causing people to say, well, if they're getting to details, maybe they're getting to a deal. >> that may be the case. they haven't, unfortunately, shared many of those details with us. so, what we can see from here is, sort of, like, a gathering tornado of pressures on the israeli government that has been, let's say, as reluctant as hamas. so, what we've seen is, as you said, president biden speaking with netanyahu yesterday. and according to white house

sources saying, you know, it's time to get to this deal. the israeli army saying it needs a deal, including if it is to prepare for a possible war in the northern border, which you just alluded to. israeli leaders of many stripes, the opposition, even some people closer to netanyahu basically acknowledging that he has no reason to say no to this deal right now, which is a deal, according to biden, that he agreed to weeks ago. that said, the israeli government really, really is -- you know, either trying to delay the money time or really lowering expectations. there were a series of declarations today. hamas said they have accepted the last version of this. the israeli -- one member of the israeli delegation flew to qatar and then flew back immediately.

hezbollah, on israel's northern border, said if a deal were signed with hamas, then they would cease fire. then the last thing we've heard is the israeli prime minister's office, netanyahu again, saying that very big gaps remain and that no israeli delegation is believed to continue negotiations before next week. so, this could be a game of delay, delay, delay. >> and as you have mentioned, both the leaders of hamas and benjamin netanyahu have a disincentive in some cases to ending this war. but let's go back to your third point, and that was hezbollah. if a deal avoids a war with hezbollah, that would be a very, very big thing. i think most israelis understand, and i assume most of our viewers understand. hezbollah is not hamas. they are a much more sophisticated, much better-armed, much more potent fighting force than hamas would

ever have become. and i think most israelis are hopeful there is not going to be a war with hezbollah. >> yeah. i think that's true. and in fact, a poll that was released just a couple of hours ago revealed something incredible to me, which is that a majority -- a slim majority, but i think it was 56% of israelis believe that this war is being dragged out for netanyahu's political benefit. so, that would indicate that not only do they not want the war to expand to whatever extent this does depend on israel, that they don't want the war to expand, but they feel they're, kind of, being dragged along. and that is very significant in a country that everyone's kids the ones in army and they're the ones dying and being buried every single day. so the political pressure on netanyahu and the pressure from bereaved families and families

of hostages, there seems to be this kind of growing tsunami of pressure around netanyahu to try and push him to take a step that politically he's reluctant to take, because he could lose the supreme court of his base or his minister. >> there have been separation between the military and netanyahu and that is not just about october 7th. it is even been about things before that. netanyahu is substantially more hawkish than most of the military establishment in israel. but at this point, the military has expressed grave concern to say if there is another front that fully opens, there has been a lot of stuff between israel and hezbollah, but if that were to become a war that israel has to fully support, there aren't enough reservists in position to do that and they can't have a two-front war right now. >> yes, they're also concerned about restocking armament.

it has cost israel a lot of lives and in weaponry. they're definitely concerned about a lack of liptic support for what israel may confront. an i think in a way, if i could suggest, i think it is a little worse than saying that netanyahu is more hawkish. because again, as israeli public perceived it, it is not so much that he's hawkish, so much as that he's self-interested. >> difference. >> he see this is war continuing as a guarantee that he will continue in power when he has the support of maybe one quarter of israeli voters according to most polls right now. so, it is not really an eye -- versus a political leader who said i can't let this war go yet. >> we talk every week and i'm still learning stuff. one could be hawkish and

reasonable and logical and ideological. this is different. self-preservation, a lesson we slud learn in america. good to see you from israel. still ahead, more on biden's speech in wisconsin as he vows to stay in the race. n as he vows to stay in the race.

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vegorrous performance this afternoon after sitting down -- also sitting down for a high stakes tv interview in which his age and competence will be an issue. we'll have much more that in our next hour. and we'll have a deep dive into the john roberts court, and the abuse of presidential authority and a special guest on the peaceful transfer of power in the united kingdom. conservatives are out, labor is in, in a landslide. this is an election with huge implications for europe and the rest of the world. a lot is happening on this july 5th. stay with us. on this july 5th. stay with us power outages can be unpredictable and inconvenient, but with a generac home standby generator, your life goes on uninterrupted. because when your generac detects a power outage, it automatically powers up, giving your family the security and peace of mind they deserve. we don't have to worry about whether we lose power or not. if the utility company does not come through, our generac does.

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i'm ali velshi in for nicolle wallace. after a critical day of making the case to democrats and to the country at large, joe biden is saying that he should stay in the race. biden is speaking in wisconsin hitting back against the concerns that he's too old for the job. >> you think i'm too old to restore roe v. wade, the law of the land? do you think i'm too old to ban assault weapon again? to protect social security and medicare and those in need? to make billionaires finally tart to pay something beyond 8.2% of the tax rate. let me ask you. do you think i'm too old to beat donald trump? >> no! >> i can hardly wait. >> biden didn't pull his punches when it came to trump. >> trump is a convicted felon.

found guilty. 34 felonies. >> lock him up -- >> trying to hide hush money payments to a porn star. he is not just a convicted criminal, he's a one-man crime wave. >> and sitting down for a high stakes tv interview that is expected to focus on the questions about his age and his competence that surfaced during his debate with trump. the anxiety among democrats have not gone away in the weeks since. >> more democrats seem to be getting cold feet over president biden's re-election campaign. >> concern, of whether he should stay in the race or not. >> biden is moving forward with his campaign. >> i'm not going anywhere. >> this is beyond and bigger than even joe biden. this is about a choice between democracy and a dictatorship. >> -- vice president kamala harris is private strategying in case biden drops out.

>> one congressional democrat has called on him to step aside. >> and biden is facing brand-new pressure in the senate. senator mark warner of virginia reportedly working on gathering a group of democratic senators to ask the president to bow out of the race. this following a meeting with democratic governors during which the president said that he needs more sleep. telling them, he would avoid work events later then 8:00 p.m. meanwhile, in michigan, another key state, many democratic voters say they're sticking by the president. >> we all have good days and bad days. >> and what do you think about the pressure that biden is facing from some people in his own party to drop out. >> i don't think it is right. but i'm not party. >> he's not going to drop out anyway. >> and if he did, i would vote for a democrat anyway. >> joining me now, allen lichtman, who has correctly predicted nine of the last ten presidential races and jackie

alemany from "the washington post." thank you for being with us. jackie, what is your sense of this? we're more than a week away from that debate and frankly for some people the bigger concern was what happened on monday at the supreme court. joe biden putting out a vigorous response this afternoon at a rally and he's got the sitdown interview this afternoon. what do you make of where we are? >> well, i think we're really very much in wait-and-see mode as my colleagues just scooped an hour ago. mark warner is the latest democratic senator who is behind closed doors trying to rally some of this colleagues around having a meeting with president biden to air some of these concerns, that a lot of the media has been reported on privately but that few have wanted to take to the public. but warner being the person who is now trying to get members of his party to coalesce and try to

communicate this to biden directly is pretty significant. he's someone who chairs the senate intelligence committee, viewed as a serious voice in advocating for the president to maybe step aside. he represents a state that democrats have to win in november to maintain their hold on the white house. and he is representative right now this moment of -- of this growing feeling that it is untenable for biden to stay in this position at the top of the ticket in this current situation. i think that there was an expectation that biden would have been in touch with senators and lawmakers and members of the house more frequently and directly this week in making a more robust case that he could do the job. but now, you know, there is sort of this feeling that maybe he's left this opening on purpose. so a lot of these people, again, are in wait-and-see mode. they want to see how he does tonight in the interview with george stephanopoulos and wait

until next week and have a candid forum go back and forth about the next four years an the race in november. >> and let's talk about. that and even people like nancy pelosi, said if the interview goes well tonight, one interview is not going to do it. he had a robust performance in the speech this afternoon and he'll need a few of them. to jackie's point, the white house or the campaign are going to have to come up with something that sounds like a solution to quiet those who remain in some cases validly concerned. how do you see this playing out and do we have any sort of historical precedent that makes this make sense? >> we sure do. just this whole controversy i've been saying for years, republicans have no principles, democrats have no spine. republicans are willing to stick with a presidential candidate

who he's debate performance was far more dangerous than joe biden. yes, joe biden stumble and fumbled, but trump based his candidacy on lies and promised he wouldn't accept the results of a fair election and promised he would govern as an authoritarian. that is far, far more dangerous than anything you could say about joe biden and yet the republican party hasn't said a peep about that. they just united behind this great danger to 235 years of democracy. on the other hand, the democrats have no spine. the further sign of adversity, they're running for the hills and willing to throw the guy who the voters of the democratic party nominated to the wolves. and then making a huge mistake. as you know, i have a system, i would say ten out of ten, because 2000 was a stolen election as i proved in my report to the u.s. commission on

civil rights, but leave that aside, under my system, six of my 13 keys will have to go against the white house party to predict their defeat. biden checks the incumbency key and he checks the contest key, he was uncontested. that means six out of the remaining le would have to fall to predict a democratic defeat. biden steps aside and you have a big party, because no one should agree who she thud pick, they lose both of those keys and only four keys would have to fall. forget the keys. you look at the history. you look at the history cal parallels, you see an uncertain nomination and since the turn of the 20th century, 120 years the white house party has never, ever gotten re-elected under those conditions including hillary clinton in 2016, and they're trying to recreate exactly that, ignoring history,

ignoring how to analyze elections. all of these folks were calling for biden to withdraw, having comment on the zero track record in predicted elections yet they claim to be able to predict what democrats should be doing to win this time and they're way off base. >> so jackie, it sounds like what you just described, they need allen explaining from the white house to a whole bunch of members of congress, because one of the complaints, and this is -- it predates last week's debates, one of the complaints from members of congress and senior democrats is sort of a lack of ongoing dialogue about what seemed to be -- i don't want to call them intractable, but difficult problems. with gaza, where there is a sense of hang on, we'll work it all out. how much of this is going to get solved by outreach from the campaign and/or the white house to constituents who are concerned and i say

constituents, i don't just mean voters, i mean the media and the actual members of congress who are turning against joe biden at the moment. >> you're totally right. some senators and this is an issue that has cropped up. and biden doesn't have an accurate picture of the fallout. i should note while we're on the top of historical references, it was three members went over to the white house to tell richard nixon that he no longer had support over the watergate scandal and then he then resigned two days later. that is why we're seeing more and more democrats agitating to get in front of biden to hear from him directly. and you know, with members out of town right now, they're on the ground and with their constituents, they're campaigns to win back the majority in the house, they're coming back this tuesday. so if the dam is going to break,

it is -- it will very well could very well break next week. there are a bunch of members, people like senator majority leader chuck schumer who are advocating for colleagues to wait and see until there is more definitive and reliable polling. that wouldn't come until the end of the month because the polling data right now, there are some democrats who feel like it is not that reliable since there has been the fourth of july holiday and republicans are anticipated to have a bit of a bump from their convention. but that polling should be a major determination in how biden proceeds. but, again, i am sorry to sound like a broken record, but we are in wait-and-see mode and it is unclear what and who could tip the scales here when it comes to biden's decision-making process. >> and to the extent that the person that could tip the scales is joe biden, giving a strong

performance this afternoon, we'll wait and see what tonight's interview will have. and no one things one rally or two is going to silence this thing. but how much of this is just up to joe biden? going out there and demonstrating for people, supporters and critics alike, that he's up to the job? >> i completely agree with that. and again i'll give you the historical analogy. there was some doubt about whether -- to fulfill a presidential term. his advisers told him, don't campaign and take the risk and fdr ran one of the most vigorous campaigns ever. that is exactly what joe biden should be doing. getting out there and in unscripted situations and proving he was fit as just as

franklin roosevelt was. and it terrifies me that we have democracy by the polls. that is the worst way to run our democracy. the polls are snapshots. they change all of the time. george h.w. bush was 17 points down to mike dukakis and went on to win easily and with a 25-point swing. barack obama was pronounced dead after that first debate where he did worse than biden. only 20% thought he would be the debate. 33% in the cnn poll thought biden won the debate. all of the smart money said hillary clinton couldn't lose. the great sam wine of princeton university, the head of the polling said 99% chance clinton would win and even on national television that she lost and he did eat a bug.

and -- richard nixon analogy isn't totally miss guided. richard nixon was asked to leave because he was corrupting our political system. he want even up for re-election in 1976. there is no parallel whatsoever. and by the way, there is a precourt decision had been in effect in the 1990s, nixon would have gotten away with watergate and our democracy would have died way back then just like it might die if trump is elected. >> jackie, if i say something that is for sure and if it doesn't go my way, i'm going to eat a bug on television, i'm not going to eat a bug on television. ist just want to be clear. it doesn't matter what i promise. i'm not eating a bug on television for either of you. thank you. i appreciate your analysis. we appreciate your time. jackie and allen. coming up, how trump is trying to use the john roberts decision on immunity to delay his classified docks trial.

a new signs that republicans are very worried about how their push to ban abortion could cost them the election. also our special look at the momentum vote in the united kingdom and its model for a peaceful transfer of power. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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supreme court justice sotomayor warns us about that. trump can take out his components, physically take them out. take bribes, and lead a coup and be immune to ever being held accountable for it, if he did it

while he was president, according to the supreme court. >> boo! >> president biden speaking earlier about that bombshell end to the supreme court's term. the majority conservative court granted the president broad immune for acts. >> the high court has just issued once of the most consequential rulings. >> the president has immunity but nor not unofficial acts. >> five-alarm fire from the supreme court has deck reared him a king. >> how the justices rule could well define the parameters of power of the american presidency. >> there is nobody who could claim that our founders wanted a president to have this kind of power. >> the court ruling along party lines. john roberts writing a president is quote, absolutely immune from criminal prosecution for conduct within his exclusive sphere of constitutional authority, end

quote. the three liberal justices slamming the decision saying it quote makes a mockery that no man is above the law, end quote. the majority giving examples from trump's january 6 coup case of what is and is not considered an official act. ruling trump is immune from discussions with justice department officials, in his alleged attempt to overturn the election results and stating that trump is immune for his attempts to pressure vice president pence to not certify the election results. joining me now is joyce vance and leah litman and host of the strict scrutiny podcast. good evening to both of you. thank you for being with us. joyce, in a normal world, it is all we would talk about this week because it is about the most amazing and surprising thing that could have happened. the supreme court has gone out

on a limb here and it is unclear to most thinking people what we're supposed to do about this. they have said things that do not logically seem to be clear, including the fact that the president of the united states is, in fact, above the law, as long as he could claim he's doing his job. >> it is tough to read this decision as saying anything else. but you know, the good news here is, this case now goes back to the district court. judge chutkan will rule in the first instance on what conduct is official, what conduct is unofficial, and of course, she'll have to deal with this big gray area in the middle that the supreme court has set forth where donald trump will have presumptive immunity and the government will have to establish that prosecuting him would not impair the powers of this now near imperial presidency in order to remove that immunity. but after she makes those decisions, they'll go back to the supreme court and they'll get a second bite at the apple. and perhaps, just perhaps, some

sanity will be re stored in that process. i don't mean to hold out false hope, but we should wait and see how these fact specific findings come out and whether the supreme court intends to do what this does on its face, like plot murders with attorneys general and then claim that even though that is a crime, we understand that is a crime, they can't be prosecuted because of presidential immunity. >> leah, what is your sense of how this unfolds? >> i think you really have to read this opinion against the back drop of a second trump term and all of the things that donald trump has suggested he would do if he is re-elected. things like prosecuting political opponents or jailing people in the media who cite size him or beating up protesters. in a world in which donald trump is elected to a second term, there is a very real possibility that he will be newly emboldened by what the supreme court said

in this opinion which is effectively that the president has complete control over the department of justice and therefore can't be prosecuted for anything the president does as far as directing doj and other offices within doj. and that is extremely concerning if you think about, for example, his instituting prosecutions of political opponents or ordering his subordinates to beat up protesters. >> and joyce, there are some that have commented on and off the record from the department of justice and federal law enforcement, who have worried about the ways in which that particular part of this can be dangerous. in other words, this coming from a guy, donald trump, who has used the word revenge and retribution. he does not shy away from it. his surrogates do not shy away from the fact that they will prosecutor go after civilly donald trump's opponents and

critics. there are people from the department of justice who say there is a way that you could make that happen. that this could become a real thing, that donald trump can go after his critics and opponents. >> it doesn't get a whole lot clearer than lock her up directed at your political opponent like donald trump said repeatedly during rallies in 2016 towards hillary clinton. you know, he is on record as someone who believes that he should be able to use the justice department to punish his enemies and reward his friends. and these are not false fears. these are realistic concerns even if immunity wouldn't extend to his employees at the justice department, donald trump holds the trump card, he could pardon people. co grant pardons and something that the supreme court said in the immunity decision itself, they cannot look behind his use of the pardon power. that is an exclusive executive authority, it falls within his

core area of official acts. he can do as he pleases. so we're now looking at a situation where not just donald trump is acting in a lawless way has to be our concern but where he could use the justice department or any other executive agency for that matter to extend his purposes and accomplish the goals he wants to accomplish for himself. >> maybe very important, leah, for americans to understand what this court that donald trump has appointed three justices to has done and what more it could do. axios is reporting that part of trump's plan is replace justices thomas and alito, maybe have them retire, and justice thomas is 76 and alito is 74 years old and in theory under this plan, that they would retire, a list of potential successors is being drawn up and one would imagine, given trump's playbook, that they would be young robust people who would then implement

his will for a long time to come. >> i think that is a very real possibility. you know, i think there is a very about chance that the next president will have the opportunity to replace at least two supreme court justices. and i don't think it is unfair to believe that both justices thomas and alito would prefer to retire under a republican president. and if you think about the possibilities for who donald trump might replace justice's thomas and alito with, while there have been a reports among his possible nominees are judges on the u.s. court of appeals for the fifth circuit who attempted to effectively withdraw the medication aboard drug from the market. and so those are the potential nominees that donald trump could put on the supreme court. and i think again the prospects that the next president might be able to appoint at least two supreme court justices is one of the very significant factors in the upcoming election. >> joyce vance, let's talk about the -- the actual issue at hand. january 6 and the overturning of a legitimate election, the

prevention of the peaceful transfer of power that was attempted by donald trump. how do you read this supreme court decision as it relates to -- obviously we're not having a problem where we have joe biden is sitting president of the united states, so he's probably not going to pull this kind of nonsense. but is there anything about that, that the supreme court determined, that the president is not immune from. if they're saying a plot is an official act, how does a guy like they without any legal training process that? >> well, i think your processing it exactly as it is -- it is meant. the imagine october doesn't have a single instance of conduct that they say donald trump could be prosecuted for. in a concurrence that no one else signs, she identifies one area where he could be prosecuted. but we have a majority opinion that rules out a lot of conduct. you can't prosecute him for his

communications with doj. you probably can't prosecute him for the pressure campaign on mike pence. but they're unable to identify anything where doj could go forward. now i think jack smith will look at that differently and he will reexamine his indictment and evaluate not only what charges he can bring, but it is important to recall that the supreme court also narrowed the evidence that the government can use. it tells the government, you can't use any evident of official acts. and that is really a significant impediment. that this is what prosecutors do best. you goodet rulings from supreme court and you go back and you look at your case and figure out how to do justice for the american people. that is the job in front of jack smith and his team now. >> i thank both of you for joining us this afternoon. joyce vance and leah litman, appreciate your time. and still ahead, more than a decade of conservative rule ended in the united kingdom today after a landslide win for

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we're going to stand up for women in america. we're going to restore roe v. wade. the law of the land. >> president biden rallying support for restoring roe v. wade. now ahead of the republican national convention. donald trump is trying to spin his position as hardliners press

for a national ban on abortion. new reports revealing trump's push to remove calls for a national ban from the party platform leaving it to the states to decide, because that works out real well. and trump has been all over the place on this issue. he privately supported a national abortion ban. but then he flip-flopped on that and he claimed he would leave it up to states. >> now that we have abortion, where everyone wants it from a legal standpoint, the states will determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both and whatever they decide must be the law of the land. >> anybody calling for him to step aside. overall the majority of americans support abortion to be legal in all or most cases. and since the fall of roe, it is a winning issue for democrats. back with us, molly jong fast and political analyst. it is not just a winning issue

for democrats, it is a losing issue for republicans. seven of the refrn -- referendum, they brought it and they still lost. >> ohio. the rural state of ohio. these referendums are just poison for republicans. because it is not popular. but what i think is so interesting is that instead of saying, like, our abortion stance is not popular, voters don't like it, maybe we should rethink it. instead they've gone like ten times further. so we're talking about project 2025 and the -- and the comstock act and the idea that they're going to make it illegal to mail abortion pills, ivf. >> and on the same basis it used to be legal male pornography. and this is my project 2025, two bound books. it is in here. they talk about come stack and

abortion. they are going to make, the alabama thing with ivf, that lasted three days because some people realized that is stupid policy, they want to do this stuff. >> and when we talk about alabama, it is this idea that a fertilized egg is a person. so a fertilized egg should have the same rights as you or me. they're the same. >> right. >> so alabama, when, in fact this happened and this law went into effect, they didn't rewrite the law. instead they just indemnified the ivf clinic. so if you fill a fertilized egg it is okay, because whatever, because none of this makes any sense. >> right. >> and this is still very much the idea behind this modern far right. it is that fertilized eggs are people and that -- and abortion and err go abortion and i viv f are no go.

>> to the extent this is as motivating of annish for voters and there is a big conversation about joe biden, but in fact, this may be one of the -- the winningest things that democrats have. >> yeah. the supreme court gave them a gift. and it is so funny, because it -- when texas passed sb-8 in 2021. >> yep. >> i was like, this is the end of roe. i'm the daughter of a second white feminist. i couldn't believe it. i could not believe it. my whole life, she said 1973, we got this right of bodily autonomy, you'll never lose it. and couldn't believe it. and i thought to myself, they will lose elections and whether it happens, conservative pundits said it is baked in, voters don't vote on abortion and in fact, that was completely wrong. and it has been a huge issue. an the other thing i would say, one of the things that i don't

anyone saw coming even people who have studied this, was that pregnant woman would be in so much jeopardy, and in so many states and they would have these stories. >> because nobody -- i skipped a couple of biology class. they skipped all of biology. pregnancy is a high risk operation, higher risk in the you the than any other developed country. we have greater maternal mortality and child infant mortality than anywhere in the developed world. and we have just made that worse. the statistics have indicated in texas, the increase in infant mortality is up drds. >> women in the second trimester could not be treated because ob/gyns don't want to be -- >> and in case you're dying, that may not be enough to willing to lose my license over your life. >> and that is why you have women being flown out of state and doctors wouldn't treat them and you take the risk that they end up having to have a

hysterectomy or worse. >> yeah. molly, thank you. this is going to be a more important discussion that some of the discussions we've been having last week. into coming up, a pieceful transfer of power. what a novel idea. we'll show you how it happened today. that is next.

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go to care.com now to find the care you need this summer. sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. we just need to advance the cure. it's a bold initiative to try and bump cure rates all around the world, but we should. it is our commitment. we need to do this. voters in the united kingdom have embraced change, putting the labor party in power for the

first time in 14 years. keir stormer, a name that you will hear a lot of it, is officially the prime minister because it happened real fast in the u.k. putting an end to 14 years of conservative rule. the u.k. marking a noticeably peaceful transfer of power. you could see the former prime minister walking out of 10 downing street after his loss. one that he accepts. and we see the new prime minister arriving at his new office. which is exactly what is supposed to happen in free and fair elections. joining me now is robbie augerwall and a peabody award winning producer and good to see you. and what we've seen in elections, mostly around the world, with some exceptions, is popular movements gaining steam, populist, nativist movements gaining steam. why did that not happen in the united kingdom. >> well to a degree, it has happened a little bit. there is a party called the reform party which is run by a

man called nigel farage, he's an ally of donald trump and he's one of the original proponents of the brexit, the move to take the u.k. out of the european union. and in a sense, this election, if you have to define what it stood for, turnout was very low, the lowest in about two decades. at just about 60%. it was really a vote to boot the conservative party out. which has had a chaotic 14 years in power with very little to show for it. other than brexit. several prime ministers going in and out of number 10 downing street. so in a sense, labor, which is traditionally been the other big party in the u.k., has tried to project a sense of it being sta senses it has been able to do that giving alternative to the chaos of the last 14 years. but i wouldn't say the rise of the far right, as we've seen with nigel farage, they didn't

win that many seats but the vote share was disturbingly high. second place in many parts, many constituencies and that is something to worry about if the future if labor doesn't do well in the next four years. >> how much of this election, and it is a hard question to answer, but how much of this was the fact that as you said the conservatives were just chaos and disarray for the last several years. how much of this was throwing those bums out as opposed to a positive vote for labor? >> i think labor is mostly the former. labor right now over the last two months has really just been trying to do nothing at all in terms of rocking the boat. they knew they were ahead in the polls. they actually haven't been proposing that many new policies in part because they know they're ahead in the polls. they knew that they were very likely to win. so a lot of this is about kicking the toris out, who as i said, have sowed confusion and chaos for last 14 years, but most of all brexit.

i think brexit is the thing for the rest of the world has define the the u.k. and that the u.k. turned to nostalgia, turned away from unity with the european union, and away from globalism and in many sense labor now is trying to reform that and bring the u.k. back into the rest of the world. this is a party that is strongly believes in supporting sovereignty and democracy around the world. really sees european integration in some form as its priority in as much as it can do that without being in the e.u., and it really wants to rely on the united states to form a very strong alliance, particularly on security matters. >> let's talk about you said they relied on nostalgia, we're talking about brexit here. how much of that relates to what we have in the united states? because brexit was on one hand nostalgia, which make america great sounds a little bit like, it was protectionist, it was

isolationist is, which the republican party in the united states is. how much could we read into our own future based on the rejection of those things in the united kingdom? >> so this is a great question. i think in the u.k., the fever broke. i think the evidence poured in that brexit was just stupid. it didn't work economically. britain was not able to strike better deals with any other countries in the way in which it said it would. in many ways, i think the question in the united states is why didn't the fever break after donald trump? who also said he would strike better deals with country after country. so, in a sense, the united states is maybe far behind the u.k., it is more polarized. look, in the u.k., it is also in general, a more socially liberal place. but i wouldn't say that, again, this election isn't a complete

rejection of the populism. look at farage, but also look at britain's place in the world. there is a real sense now that in as much as brexit was this nostalgic chest thumping, look at how great we can be, there is a clearer sense now that those days are gone. in 1997 when tony blair won a landslide election, the british economy was bigger than india and china combined, today it is one fifth the side of china. i think britain has realized that and they're looking for something that is more realistic about britain's place in the world. >> robbie, good to see you as always and thank you for your analysis. and we'll look at whether you could put a price on privilege. could put a price on privilege lakesha: childhood cancer is it's hard. but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer

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because it's completely changed our lives. the supreme court has been clawing back protections on race for years with decisions on issues like affirmative action and voting rights that seem to suggest that racism no longer exists in america. of course that's not true. we saw vivid illustrations of that throughout the trump presidency and the legacy of race and slavery lingers. the iconic article on reparations by ta na haase coats jump started a conversation about the cost of racism building up over decades, and now a new book is making headlines by looking at the flip side of this issue, trying to put a price tag on privilege.

in white bonus, the journalist takes a stab at doing the math at how much being white has helped her. her answer, nearly $372,000. tracy mcmillan joins me live now. obviously i'm a money guy. that's my background in the business, so i'm intrigued by these things, right? because measurements and numbers and calculations help people understand what are otherwise abstract ideas, which i think was your goal here. the idea that the cost of race, the cost of not being white or the benefit of being white are all tied to something that's tangible, and you were trying to express that. >> yeah, for me i really felt like i wanted to understand what exactly do i get for being white? i think sometimes when white folks are confronted this idea of privilege, they say, well, what did i ever get for being white, especially if we're not people with a lot of money. for me it felt like a really worthwhile exercise to say, all

right, let's just get down to brass tacks and see if we can put a number on it. >> let's talk about what some of these things are you put a number on. i want to take something, not from your book, but it's from 2022, "the new york times" did an article about a black couple who got a different home value when the appraiser believed they were white. now, this ended up in a lawsuit which was later settled, but when the home was appraised, when the appraiser thought the owners were black, it was worth 472,000, and with a white owner, 750,000. now, that might be an extreme example, but it's little things like this, right? it's jobs, it's ways you get selected for jobs, but it's also purely financial matters. >> yeah, i think for me, you know, going into this project with the white bonus, i thought, well, probably, you know, rich white people are going to see the biggest benefit from being white, right? and i think in terms of a dollar amount that's true, but what was interesting to me was to realize

that as, you know, a lower, middle class person looking for social mobility, white advantage and sort of racism working in my favor was incredibly important to my own trajectory. in some ways that's much more powerful. people being willing to open doors for me, giving me the benefit of the doubt, helping me get internships and jobs and things that help me on my way. those are the things that catapulted me into stability, and i think that often for white folk, we sort of ignore that. we say somebody was nice to me and i needed help. that's often true, but it's also true that often the fact that we're white is what makes that possible. >> tell me about that because is the idea that over time, you got more contact in more places that can help you or more people in more influential positions? give me a little more on that. >> sure, i think for me, you know, just drawing on my own story because the book is half memoir, is, you know, when i was

in college, i had been sort of in a difficult situation with my family, and i was working for a wealthy couple as sort of like a nanny and tutor. at some point, it was a very nice job. this was not the nanny diaries. the mom took me aside, and she said, look, i know this job is really hard, but somehow my kids need to know that people need to work to get through school. because she had put herself through school and she wanted somebody to sort of model this for her kids, right? somebody who looked like her kids is what i took from that. and i think, you know, without that job there, a, i wouldn't have been stable in college because they helped me stay sort of financially able to float in new york city at 19, 20 years old when i separated from my family. they helped me get my first internship in journalism under wayne barrett, an investigative reporter, and they cosigned for an apartment for me, right? so this is a little thing, but the fact that i looked like that mom and could look like these girls like classmates at their private school, right, that was what opened the door for me.

>> remarkable exercise. thank you for sharing that with us. tracie mcmillan, the author of the white bonus, five families and the cash value of racism in america. we'll be right back with one more thing. erica. we'll be right back with one more thing it's a mouthful. one of the harder things is the little things that i need help with: getting dressed, brushing your teeth, being able to go out with your friends by yourself. those are hard because you don't want help, but you need it. children like jaxon need continued support for the rest of their lives. whoa, whoa, whoa. and you can help. please join easterseals right now, with your monthly gift. i'm almost there. the kids that you are helping, their goal is to be as independent as they can.

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>> you think i'm too old to restore roe v. wade, the law of the land? >> no! >> you think i'm too old to ban assault weapons again? >> no! >> protect social security and medicare? >> no! >> to make billionaires finally start to pay something beyond 8.2% of the tax rate? [ cheers and applause ]

let me ask you, you think i'm too old to beat donald trump? >> no! >> i can hardly wait. >> president biden earlier today, we're going to see more of him in a prime time interview later tonight. that does it for this special edition of "deadline white house." you can catch my show "velshi" saturdays and sundays at 10:00 a.m. eastern right here on msnbc. tomorrow i'm going to have a special conversation with legendary novelist tim o'brien, author of "the things they carried" in the next installment of the velshi book club. it's his fictionalized account of his time in the vietnam war, exploring the utility of war, the power of friendship, and the motivaing effects of morality, shame, and survival. don't miss my conversation tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. eastern. chris hayes picks up our coverage right now. good evening from chicago,