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. welcome back to this special early holiday edition. we got the early look at president joe biden's first in- depth interview since his debate performance last week. this clip from abc news, president biden took responsibility for how that debate went and it was one off born on illness and fatigue. >> let's start with the debate. you and your team have said you had a bad night. >> [ laughter ] >> your friend nancy pelosi framed the question that is so the minds of millions was it a bad episode or a sign of a more serious condition? >> it was a bad episode. no indication of any serious condition. i was exhausted. i did not listen to my instincts in terms of preparing. i had a bad night. >> you say you were exhausted and i know you said it before

as well. you came and you had a tough month. came home from europe about 11 or 12 days before the debate. spent six days in camp david, why was that not enough rest time? >> because i was sick. i was feeling terrible. the doc was with me, we did a covid test, he did a test to see if i had an infection, you know, virus. i didn't. just had a bad cold. >> biden added his performance was his fault not the fault of any of his aids. >> the "new york times" had me down 10 points before the debate. 9 now or whatever the hell it is. the fact of the matter is, what i looked at is that he also lied 28 times. i could not -- i mean the way the debate ran, my fault no one else's. >> you were having trouble from the first question in, even before he spoke? >> well, i just had a bad

night. that clip is all that we have seen so far. does not feel like that or his rally speech in wisconsin we will do much to change minds in other direction. for biden the stakes are as high as they can be. at this point, it is an explosive attempt to save a campaign in the difficult spot it has been in since probably after the new hampshire democratic primary in 2020. i know that biden folks are thinking about that moment because biden finished in fifth place and a lot of people wrote him off and said it was doomed and he was done. and of course, joe biden came back from that to win the primary, win the precedency, that is the way a lot of people in the inner circle are thinking about this brute although news cycle. congressman have you been? >> i have been better. it was a horrible night. >> the debate. >> yes.

>> and everything is not okay. i know people his instinct is to be loyal and i appreciate that. their instinct is to be a cheerleader? that is not helpful. we need folks who you willing to understand where we are and what we have to do do it under the spector of a second trump term. it is a continuation of the last days of his first term which is a nightmare in every respect. so, i don't think they are helping anyone. >> who is "they"? >> those that cheer on and say everything will be okay with where president biden is. this is hard to do. i would rather be doing anything else, i would rather be out in the midwest talking to people about what a second trump term means for ukraine. >> you are the most strenuous

people on behalf of the ukrainian people. your district is part of it. something you feel about. >> i know what happened. the last time i was in ukraine. we met president zelenskyy. they were occupied. they said to us after going through that hell. if you leave the russians will be back. first day in office, trump pulls all of the support out. this is all but done >> those are the stakes for american democracy and ukrainian democracy. what do you think should happen? those in texas say they think the president should step aside and have someone else run? >> do you agree with them? >> i started the week where i was talking beverring else and this came up. i asked for help to get the words out. i could not help because it is like talking to a loved one

about a tough situation. a man who pulled us out of covid, who pulled us out of an autocracy. how do you tell that person he can not do it anymore? the way i started it was by thanking him and showing him that and suggesting that his decision is not just going to effect who sits in the white house for the next four years but who controls the house and senate. these races are razor thin, those frontline seats, and the house and the senate are decided by single digits and all of the critical votes everyone cares so much. i would say to those folks everything is fine it is not and everything you care about is on the line and you have to be realistic and you have to be tough. the way i say this is probably changed since that day. just because i had time to accept this and look at the polls and if i talk to the

president i would say something different. >> you did not answer the question. >> i had a hard time getting to that process. i would say mr. president your legacy is set. we owe you the greatest debt of gratitude the only thing you can do now to cement that for all-time and prevent utter catastrophe is to step down and let someone else do this. i think, day one, we are back in the dog fight, all of a sudden all of the things we are talking about with president biden we got a lot more we can talk about with trump. not just that he lied 28 times during the debate and he is a salute monster but he has cognitive issues something that pelosi brought up earlier this week, she is right. >> so.

>> i am a journalist not an elected member but the idea of the chaos that lies on the other side of that decision, ripping the democratic party apart what do you think about that? >> there is a process to do this. when we were trying to win in 2020, i think people came together and made those decisions in the primaries with joe biden. he had the best chance to beat trump. they were right. they did it, it worked. so that was chaotic, that was difficult, we did not think we were going to get there. we are in a situation that involves joe biden, the opposite scenario, he can not be the person who is at the top of the ticket. so, look, i don't think there is anything wrong with having people disagree with how we get to that point but i think for

the same reasons that they came together four years ago they will come together this time one candidate, i think people under rate the bench? i think we have a lot of people that are great. i have the greatest respect for the vice president. i think we can get beyond all of that stuff. clearly the alternative now is bleak scenario with, what i would say, almost no help of succeeds. not just the white house but all of the congress and the future. >> let's follow up on that. there is something, i think, the biden people and i used that in the intelephone it where people thought trump was done. you go up to anyone they would be like he is toast, he is done, he was not, right? so, there is some sense in which there is some part of me

sympathetic. don't get too -- you never know what is going to happen, does that weigh on you? >> sure, sure, a lot of pressure that is why it took time to get here. four years ago you saw a different joe biden. >> i think that is controversial. >> there is a big difference between democrats and republicans. i came to the point as part of the intel committee of russian investigation, part of the ukrainian investigation, that there are a majority of republicans in this country, we grew up thinking, i will believe it when i see it. i think i will see it when i believe it. >> that is right. >> trump was right when he said i can shoot somebody on 5th avenue and my people would still be with me. democratic voters saw a catastrophic debate and it was a significant number of paws, clearly independence. they are going to be critical here. how many votes did trump win by

in three states? >> 55,000. >> 55,000. they can fill soldier field and have room to spay. >> you have been dogged on the question. i would like to talk to you more about ukraine. >> thank you. >> have a great weekend. >> thank you. adam is a senior to fedderman. buck is a strategist to paul ryan and press secretary to speaker john bannor, i will start with you now. i want you to go back. first of all i want to be clear when i am making this comparison. nothing at all similar to trump posting about how he liked to sexually assault women and the president having a poor debate performance. but what is, i think, similar a little bit are the dynamics of

a news cycle there are members of the party saying publicly or privately that they are worried. and, how you read this moment based on that history which i think has some weird lessons for everyone in a bunch of directions. one of the things that i thought about. the moment that access hollywood happened. we were in the speakers office. you may recall, it was paul ryan's instinct to back away and tell everybody to, you know, sort of, everyone for themselves. and that quickly backfired upon us and i think what we realized is that donald trump had a closer connection republican voters perhaps than joe biden has had. the backlash was significant. i think another important part of this, later in the cycle. and i wondered how democrats would be act figure we were not passed the convention. it became a choice for a lot of republicans, you stick with trump or hillary clinton was

the president. it was an easy choice for a lot of people. and democratics would be doing the same thing in september and october right now >> that timing point is really, really, really good one. i think it is true. i think there would be something different here. >> i don't think we would get rid of trump but it axe planed how quickly everybody came together. >> adam, doesn't explain post january 6th which is the other moment. but adam my question for you, you worked in democratic politics for a long time in a variety of settings what do you think about this moment that the party and the country find itself in. >> it is one of the trickiest moments i ever seen a party find itself in. look, there say deep, deep well of affection for president biden within the party. he has been a party staller for decades. he was president biden's vice president, he saved the country

from trump in 2020, he has an incredible record and an incredible place in history. democratic voters feel loyal to him. and there is a deep well of love for him. on the other hand, i think that people are feeling very panicked about if he can beat president trump this time. and i think former president trump. and i think part of the problem is this debate occurred at a time when president bid pen was behind in the polls. he could catch up and close the gap but he is going in the opposite direction. people are feeling unnerved. in my 20 years of being in this business this is one of the trickiest, difficult spots a party has been in. >> let me, i want to stay with you for just a second because you work for senator of pennsylvania this is in your, you are giving your opinion not representing the office. but given that, there was

another moment with senator fetter man, he suffered a stroke and it was brutal and impacted his speech, he had a debate relatively soon after that, that was very hard for him and i don't think anyone would disagree with that. everything, partly what i learned there was a media story, he is cooked, dead, he will never win and then he won the races >> that is right. one of the things that we learned was that you really can rely on people's empathy. we live in cynical times. and, you know, people don't tend to give voters the benefit of the doubt on a lot of things. people gave the senator

incredible credit for showing up and carrying,a hard time. there are a couple differences that are worth raising. at the time he was ahead in the polls and there is a question of what is the trajectory of the medical condition. senator reed when i worked for him he had a serious medical condition where he fell and he broke his eye socket, basically and had a long recovery. but i think people understand conditions that are on track to recovery. part of what is giving people some pause here is the possibility that what president biden is experiencing is a different kind of condition. >> what are the prospects for recovery? there was a great op-ed about that today, about this condition frail ty, a lot of people can relate to and seen loved ones go through but does not end in an upward trajectory. >> yes. that is a term that the author

did in the times a nuanced on this question from someone who practiced. you get the people running all of the big packs for the republican senate, house, trump, in a room, truth serum, do they want to see biden stay on the ticket? what are they rooting for here? put it that way? >> i think they look at there and they win either way. they have little chance of winning. if trump has a good night, i think they see a lot of upside if harris is, if she is at the top of the ticket. perceived as progressive, has her hon i would say brand of cringe herself that a lot of people are turned off by. they are probably feeling good either way. what they are probably heaviest

about is they are chaos, they will let it go on as much time. credit to trump's discipline. he is keeping his mouth shut to a certain degree and they will let them stew in it for as long as they can. >> i will say, i thought that, too. but he is really is to a certain degree. just to be clear on this and i think it speaks to some of it -- he has been posting the nuttiest stuff, any post he posted in the last 24 hours if joe biden posted would be driving the news cycle. it is not like, it is to a certain degree but all grading on a curve when we are talking about this individual. thank you very much. coming up, more on the biden interview and the high stakes of this campaign in light of that supreme court decision on immunity, that is next supreme court decision on immunity, that is next

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. for the context of the news

cycle. intensifying the debate. the slobbing that a lot of people felt in the ruling about the maga supreme court on trump's salute immunity. the court went out of their way to tell trump, roberts writing an opinion. use the department of justice however you want, buddy. the pector of what he will do will influence people making sure he does not make precedency. the past presidents with dictorial aspiration. five leaders that threatened democracy. the professor of law university of michigan. >> let me start with you. you are a scholar of president american history and power. where do you sit situate this?

and what is articulated by trump in terms of being president or off of the map. >> i certainly think it is a terrible decision and one that threatens democracy. it is not the only one. we have been here before. we had cases where both the president threatened democracy in fundamental sense and the court abetted and made it worse. think of john adams. a law that is aimed to shutdown the party. makes it a crime to criticize the president. does not criminalize criticizing the vice president. [ laughter ] >> during the buchanan period, lobbying the court to essentially deny all rights to

black people. nationalized by wilson, and of course, nixon period, nixon claims that he is above the criminal law because we are in a civil war and there is an emergency situation. this is, this is a horrific case. i would not say it is at the level of scott but it is similar in the fact that it threatens the fundamental principal and democracy that all people have to face criminality and threatening democracy and crimes the thing that patrick henry worried about we would have a criminal president threatening democracy. that is a violation of no person is above the law. >> talking about nixon and this is to me the place i am focused on. three strands here. one, donald trump's record in office that he viewed the department of justice as a plaything and he was frustrated by the fact that they would not

just do what he wanted to do. take to twitter, jeff sessions, go prosecute hillary clinton. behind the scenes he would do that as well. we know trump wants that and project 2025 as a policy matter we want the department of justice to be the president's plaything and then justice roberts going out of his way to my reading he did not have to. to basically say hey, the president can do whatever he wants with the department of justice. what do you make of that part of the roberts opinion and what can happen? >> it is the frightening part of the opinion. what makes it appalling, during the arguments they were weighing the risks on both sides and you had the republican appointed justices speculating about if a president could face criminal liability they would refuse to leave office because they would be scared of criminal prosecution, the reality is we had a president who was interfering with a peaceful

transition of power and threatening to use the department of justice against his allies and now you have his campaign londerring a platform in which he would have complete and total control over the department of justice. the fact is, in this context, he wrote in the opinion. presidents have maximum authority over the department of justice to issue them commands and it does not matter what the president's motive is, it does not matter if the investigations are a sham, that he wrote all of that into the opinion knowing full well the context of what is happening in the up coming presidential election. i think it is very frightening. underscores that this court is not going to be a check on any of trump's worst impulses. they immunized him from criminal liability and political liability in the insurrection case from earlier this year. >> i mean what? it is one of those things you run it through the intuition test. say, okay.

the decision comes down, joe biden calls up merrick garland and wants a press conference of clarence thomas this afternoon. we all understand it is wrong. obvious that there should be core constitutional protections against that. it seems like a violation of a bunch of, you know, due process and it is explicitly endorsed by roberts. what i get from your book, the parts that i read that are very good. is that this kind of civic and constitutional culture forms of institutional resistance have, at these key moments, beat it back. which i think it is a important historical lesson right now. >> yes, exactly. i mean, there is hope in my book. i don't want to have that threat in the past. we have been here before and we recovered. the way we recovered has not been the supreme court coming

in to save us, it is citizens really trying to reclaim a democratic idea of the constitution from the president. from that example, it is the newspaper editors that face prosecution that turn their own tries into a trial of adams for shutting down the right to descend and keclaim it not in court but seeing to it that jefferson is elected. we are all federalists and not shutting it down the way adams did. it is true, douglas, fighting back against buchanan in the scott case, wells fighting against wilson. there was an attempt to fight back against nelson and the grand jury that he tried to indict him. and attempts at laws that would limit the department of justice being used as a tool of the president. that law, the independent council law expired and back to where we were inment nixon period, vulnerable to a

president abusing power and taking control of the department of justice as a weapon but not a source of enforcing justice. >> quickly, lea, do you see ways to correct for this opinion in the short term? >> the short term? ensuring that we don't elect a president that wants to interfere with a peaceful transfer of power and prosecute their allies is a minimum step from spiraling in for the nightmare that sotomayor wrote powerfully. >> the book "the presidents and the people" many thanks, have a great weekend. the democratic candidate that raised the most concern. what does the congressman think should happen now? i will ask him, right here, next i will ask him, right here, next . good evening from msnbc. just moments ago, president joe

biden facing reported questions about his fitness for office and for the 2020 in an interview the president taking responsibility for the debate performance that caused a firestorm in the democratic party. and threatens to derail his candidacy. chalking it up to a bad cold, listen. did you ever watch the debate afterwards? >> i don't think i did, no. >> what i want to get at is, what were you experiencing as you going through the debate? did you know how badly it was going? >> yeah, look, the whole way i prepared. nobody's fault, mine, nobody's fault but mine. i prepared what i usually do, sitting down as i did coming back with foreign leaders or national council for detail. and i realized about part way

through that, you know, quoting the "new york times" had me down at 10 points before the debate, 9 now or whatever the hell it is. what i looked at is that he also lied 28 times, i could not -- i mean, the way the debate ran, my fault, nobody else's fault. >> it seemed like you were having trouble from the first question in, even before he spoke? >> well, i just had a bad night >> having a bad night when asked if his debate performance was a pattern, the president said this. >> what i am asking you is, about your personal situation, do you dispute there have been more lapses in the last several months? >> can i run 110 flat? no. but i am still in good shape. >> just hours before the interview aired the president held a campaign rally in wisconsin telling the audience quote i am not letting one 90

minute debate wipe out 3-1/2 years of work. joining us now. aaron gilcrest. what is the white house saying. >> the interview just aired here. folks are still digesting what we saw from president biden in this 22 minute interview he did with abc news. i think there were a couple things that stood out to me. obviously george pressed the president on questions around his health, questions around his mental aquiity what happened at the debate and pressed him on if he thought it was wise for him to stay in the race. the president was defiant from start to finish in saying that he does fully intend to stay in the race. he asked him if he was going to if he were to get feedback from leaders in the democratic party. he said the only thing that would make him leave the race

is if he got a message from god almighty is the phrasing he used. god would have to do it. are you more frail than you were three years ago. the president said, no, look at my schedule. what was the cost? the president was able to address his performance in the debate, saying that he was not feeling well, and that fed into his debate performance but at the same time i think he stayed on message. he was in several cases to list off things he saw accomplishments, domestically and on the foreign stage and he said that he believes that he is the most qualified foreign do the job and that he knows how to get things done. and george asked if he was being honest with himself in terms of his ability to win the election in november given some of the polls suggested and the president, again, said that he would not be run figure he did not think that he can do the

job and win the election. >> they spent a few minutes on that lord almighty thing if he would come down and tell joe biden and get out of the race. aaron, stand by, i want to bring in professor at columbia university and a former secretary of housing and urban development and the former 2020 presidential candidate, castro. good to see you both. secretary castro let me start with you. did anything that joe biden did tonight sway some of your concerns about his candidacy? >> i think it is fair to say that he certainly was steadier than we saw him in the debate and more so i think at the rally in the afternoon before he gave this interview today. at the same time, the overwhelming impression that i got from this is that you have a president that is basically in denial. denial about the decline that

people can clearly see. they asked him, well, have you declined in the last 3-1/2 years since you became president? he seems to suggest he has not. denial about the polling, about how far behind he is in the battleground states, how far behind he is. denial about the drumbeat of support for asking him to step aside. representatives and senator warren as well. dismissed that and only the lord almighty comes down would i step aside and when he was asked, what if you lose to trump, how are you going to feel? and president bidened, well as long as i gave it my all that he would feel okay. that is not good enough for the american people. that is not good enough with the stakes of donald trump winning. what people want is to have

confidence that whoever democrats put up can win this election. so, i think he did better tonight but he has a long way to go to show folks to give people confidence that he can beat donald trump. >> earlier before this interview we were listening to the president's rally. in which he was, he was on. he was the guy he would like the viewers to believe he is. he addressed, he often addresses his age, perhaps more so than the media. let's listen to what he said when he was talking am i too old to do this. let's listen. >> are you the same man today than you were when you took office 3-1/2 years ago something. >> in terms of successes, yes. i also was the guy that put together a peace plan for the middle east that may be coming through. i was the guy that expanded nato. the guy to clear the economy. all of the individual things are done were ideas that i had

or i fulfilled. i moved on. and so, for example, that was true then what has biden done lately. today, announced 200,000 new jobs. we are moving in a direction that no one has it taken on. i know you know this from the days in the government. i took on big pharma, i beat them. nobody said i could beat them. we got done what we were told we could not get done. i said i wanted to do three things, are restore decency to the office, restore some support for the middle class instead of trickle down economics from the middle out and bottom up, the way the wealthy defines does better and unite the country. >> he did not get a lot of opportunity to talk about substance. george was on message about his fitness for the job. that was one answer in which he was able to start to touch on. here is what i have done and then he gave another answer

talking about it? do you think that had an effect. >> i do. in terms of my successes, you talk about the price of insulin and going through the record you and are like, you know what, this person has done a good job as president. so, you know, pivot off of a point that secretary castro made. if we are talking about issues of confidence, how do we get there? one way we get there in my view, and i have been sort of forthright about this. have the kind of message discipline that we see the republicans have on the other side. i am not saying we should be like them what i am saying is that if you go to a republican and talk to them about donald trump's convictions or his trials they are like what are you talking about? we don't know about it and solid low behind that guy. we seem to be having a brooder

consideration about who is fit for -- conversation about who is more fit. how do you, within the voter, a question and concern about your thinking through whether or not he should be allowed to move forward? >> right. >> you are having this conversation openly. it says to the voter. democrats don't know what they are doing. they don't have a plan. when people say that democrats are too soft this is exactly what they are talking about. if you have this concern about joe biden, get everybody together, make a decision, he can get out on his own terms and he earned the right to do that. and then you go and tell us who we are getting behind and get behind that person. the party is not always built for that. we are a month from the convention that would be messy but the point is if you are looking for something in this interview to give you a little more faith and hope i think you

will find it. but the truth is that the discipline of the party in getting the voters to a place where they can feel confident in this decision-making will move us forward. >> let's talk about that for a moment. the democrat party is not the republican party of today. the republican party today is a cult, some, they, they all -- they are aligned on messaging generally speaking and these internal disputes one would wish would happen more with trump at the helm. they don't happen. what does it will you about the democratic party, a flaw or a strength that they are having this discussion right now? >> reporter: ultimately i think it is a strength. we are not a cult. people are thinking about what is best not just for the party but the country. it is a party that is very, very motivated by defeating trump in november.

that is why joe biden got elected in 2020. people had confidence he was the one out of all of the candidates, he did it, they don't share that same confidence in 2024 and we have to contend with that. i think the kofergdz we are having now is a conversation -- i think the conversation we have now is a conversation that we should have. might have been different if it was four weeks to the election. we are not there yet. democrats want to field the strongest candidate to go up against trump and win in november. >> i want to ask my crew if they have the clip of biden at the rally. >> you think i am too old to restore roe v. wade? >> no! >> do you think i am too old to

ban assault weapons? protect social security and medicare? get childcare, elder care for the need of the nation? to make billionaires finally pay something beyond 8.2 of a tax rate? [ cheers and applause ] .2 of a tax rate? [ cheers and applause ] let me ask you, do you think i am too old to beat donald trump? >> no! >> i can hardly wait. >> in the last few days we have seen three versions of joe biden, right? the debate version which even he admits was not a great iteration of him. there was tonight's conversation that both aaron and the secretary pointed out. something that did happen and didn't happen and then that version. he pointed out in the interview he did 10 events right after the debate including other rallies. if people saw that rally version of him, do you think a lot of concerns would be laid to rest? >> i think so. if enthusiasm is the issue and

his ability to generate it put him in front of a crowd and have him do what he did in the rally. i don't care if they read off of a teleprompter. he will have conversations with reporters that are not on it. he has the opportunity to have these one offs, but, the campaign should and i am sure they are at one point particularly after all of this. find his sweet spot. find that part of him that gets energized and motivateed when he is talking about himself and his record and the american people. that is what i think we saw today. we saw it earlier in the week in north carolina and just do more of that. there are surrogates and including the vice president herself who can go into the communities in malar rooms and do the persuasion that i think can happen among some democrats and independences for this moment in time to do that reassurance. if you want, if the goal, part of the goal is to see the president in a place of, coming from a place of strength do

more of that. >> i want to thank you both for that. a quick break for us as we continue to track fraction tonight's president interview. one of the first to call for harris to move to the top of the ticket was jim ryan. he is up next. our special coverage continues after a very short break coveras after a very short break maria and julio thought their life would never slow down. then one day, it finally did. you were made to find inner peace. we were made to track flight prices to paradise.

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doivment you have the mental and physical capacity to do it for another four years? >> i would not be run figure i did not think i did. look. i am running again because i think i understand best what has to be done to take the nation. >> certainly one of the most interested audiences of tonight's interview are democratic lawmakers, some embraced a wait and see approach to president biden's campaign, others have taken the stand including tim ryan of ohio who joins us now. good to see you, thank you for being with us. what is your sense of how the president did tonight? >> i don't think he moved the needle at all. you know, it was, was it better than the debate? yes was it better than the debate? yes clearly, i don't think he

energized anybody. i think there was a level of him being out of touch with reality on the ground. i don't think there was anything in there that is going to give any more confidence that he moved forward with a vigorous campaign and that is not even talking about potentially governing in a few years. i'm worried. i'm worried like i think a lot of people are that he is just not the person to be able to get this done. >> when you say get this done are you talking about governing our winning the election or both? >> both. first and foremost you have to be able to win an election. you have to be able to push back against donald trump. let me say i think stephanopoulos did a phenomenal job. that was a master class in interviewing. people want to know that the candidate is in reality and for

you to ask the president are you more frail today than you were, no i'm not. i are you concerned that your 36% approval rating no president has ever won, that's not the rating, how about all these polls that george cited? those are the polls. if we are here in the ground in ohio where we have a big senatea race or here in the industrial midwest where we have to rent three of the states that surround the in ohio i'm very concerned that people are going to say he's not in touch. this is dangerous and that is just the democrats saying that. independence will say this guy is out of touch, how can we trust him to govern? let me be very clear what he was talking about what he accomplished, 1000% all in. one of the most successful presidencies ever. we have got to be able to articulate that in a vigorous way in the next four months and

i think, little do a great job but somebody who can do that job is much more important than anything else happening in the country right now. >> the best thing to happen right now is joe biden step aside and come all the harris ri take it. >> i think that is the cleanest way to do it. this country is dying for a message of hope, unity, reconciliation, how do we bring an usher in an age of reform? let the vietnam era candidates, vietnam era politicians, all of that negativity -- how do we let it go and have a generational change? i think that message would strike like a lightning bolt. people are dying for that. those double haters people talk about they don't want ayden, they don't want trump. someone like kamala emerges

from this. i think people get excited i again and we run a hard form of campaign and put the age of trump to bed forever. that's what we all want to do. >> the only thing i think you agree upon is if there's going p to be a replacement as joe biden says if lord almighty tells him not to run kamala harris is not replacement. beyond that, you weren't agreeing with what tim ryan just said. >> here is the hope i got b frank. during the pandemic 19 people i know died. people whose funerals i didn't get to go to or wakes i didn't get to go to. joe biden said we will get you through this. he got us through it. am sitting with you here today because of that. that is the message in my view that democrats should be talking about. let him make the decision he needs to make outside of us publicly pushing him to make the decision. >> you're not saying he

shouldn't. >> any elected official if theye don't want to do this you give them that respect. i believe is he has earned the right to be able to do this on his terms. my other view is that i think what we are talking about here is a process that could happen outside of us being on camera and turning the nuts and bolts of it and i want to be able for the party to be able to say joe biden has done a phenomenal job. he himself will tell you that and will say that. this is where we need to go for the next four months. this is where we need to go, let's get behind that person. i will also say there are some that have said outside of kamala harris there are governors that can do this job. if the first and last name out of your mouth is not kamala harris tell me how you will get to black folks as a result of that.

>> i want to play the question you referred to where george stephanopoulos question 3 from my control room asks joe biden are you the same man you were when you took off -- office three and half years ago question mark let's play that. >> re: the same man you were when you took office three and half years ago? >> in terms of successes, yes. i'm also the guy that put together a plan for the middle east that may be coming to fruition. i was the guy that expanded nato , that grew the economy. all the individual things were done. ideas i had or fulfilled i moved on. for example, what has biden done lately? today just announced 200,000 new jobs. we are moving in the direction no one has ever taken on. i know you know this from your days in the government. i took on big pharma, i beat

them. no one said i could beat them. i took on all the things we l said we got done were told we couldn't get done. part of it is what i said when i ran, i wanted to do three things. restore some decency to the office, restore some support for the middle-class instead of trickle-down economics the way the wealthy still defined and everyone does better and unite the country. >> you made that point. he said if you are ranking the presidency is a good presidency. given who donald trump is, given the liar he has, the threat to democracy poses, why shouldn't that answer from joe biden be the message? why shouldn't that count more than his age? >> because people want someone. they are hiring someone for the next four years, not the last four years. if you can't articulate that vision on the debate stage last

week and people don't think you can do it consistently for the next four months in a very vigorous way then there is reason to be worried and we have to remember four years ago it was a pandemic campaign that was mostly on tv from the basement of his home. that was a much different campaign. do we think he's going to be able to go out for the next four months and not beat back the lies because that's what i s was really concerned with during the debate. trump was able to do shape shifting on the economy when trump was in, on the covid he was in, on climate. he redefined it. you have to have somebody that can push back. that is the message, that's the democratic message we can build on. i think there's better candidates out there to make the case to help us win the election and put the age of trump to bed. if we don't focus around that we are in real trouble. >> thanks for being with us. much more to get to in the next

hour. we will be right back.