good evening. it's 9 p.m. in new york. i'm ali velshi sitting in on a special edition of alex wagner tonight. we heard from the president of the united states in his first extended on air interview since last week's debate. 22 uninterrupted minutes. president joe biden standing firm despite concerns in and among those in his party that he's staying in this race, that he is the man who can defeat donald trump in november. in an interview with abc news anchor george stephanopoulos president biden was asked about his fitness to serve. >> elections are about the future, not the past. they are about tomorrow, not yesterday. the question on so many people's minds right now is can you serve effectively for the next four years? >> george, i'm the guy that put nato together, the future. the only one that can expand it. i'm the guy that shut down. i'm the guy that put together

the south pacific addition. i'm the guy that got 50 nations, not only in europe, outside as well to help ukraine. i'm the guy that got the japanese to expand their budget. for example, when i decided we said 40% computer chip, we reinvented the chip. from cell phones to weapons. we used to have 40% we are down to virtually nothing. i fly to south korea. i convince them to invest in the united states billions of dollars. now we have tens of billions of dollars being invested in the united states making us back in a position where we will own that industry again. >> addressing his performance at the debate biden said he had a cold and it was a bad night. >> i guess the question or the problem is here for a lot of americans watching is you said

going back to 2020, watch me. two people who are concerned about your age. 50 million americans watched that debate. it's seemed to confirm fears they already had. >> after that debate i did 10 major events in a row including until 2:00 in the morning after the debate. i did events in north carolina, i did events in georgia. i did events like this today, large crowds, overwhelming response, so i just had a bad night. i don't know why. >> biden reiterated nothing will convince him to step down from the race unless in his words the lord almighty comes down. at one point george stephanopoulos asked him to reflect. >> are you sure you're being honest with yourself when you say you have the mental and physical capacity to serve another four years? >> yes. the last thing i want to do is not be able to do that.

as some senior economists and senior specialist say if i stop now i go down as a pretty successful president. no one could get done what we got done. >> are you being honest with yourself as well about your ability to defeat donald trump right now? >> yes. yes. yes. yes. >> we will hear more from president biden as he continues to campaign next week when he's expected to hold a solo news conference during the nato summit in washington. joining us now, senior political reporters, plus nbc white house correspondent who was with the president in wisconsin ahead of the abc interview and white house reporter for the washington post is here. thank you to all of you for joining us. mike, you have literally known

joe biden the longest. he traveled with him for a long time. there's no question regardless of how he answers george stephanopoulos, we are all older than we were seven years ago, 15 years ago. what is your sense of how he responded and what is the biden world sense of how he performed? >> the view of the campaign tonight is when you take tonight interview in which they believe he took every tough question george stephanopoulos could muster and combine that with the rally i was covering here in wisconsin this afternoon you see a president who continues to energize and motivate a core group of supporters in that room, but also still has the values that got him into this office in the first place and is focused on the right things and can still beat donald trump. as i've been looking at my phone every minute since this interview was over it's not clear to me that the audience

he needed to reach and convince tonight were satisfied. a lot of democrats i've been talking to throughout the past week feel it has been maybe two steps forward but three steps back. maybe this would've been more effective had he did in combination with the rally last week in north carolina the day after the debate rather than something that's built over time, took on sort of a super bowl level of importance by the buildup to this tonight. watching president biden there, i see the person i've been covering now for over 16 years now. somebody very proud, out of his record, he thinks he has done more in four years as president than any president before him, he thinks he still can and will beat donald trump. the audience that needs to be convinced is in his party and i think everyone watching tonight is going to take away maybe they thought he held his own but the debate performance last thursday, we can't overstate what a seismic moment that was

in shaking the confidence of democrats. it'll take more than one rally and one interview to reassure democrats for every appearance going forward are so high that i think democrats will continue to be walking on eggshells until this is resolved. >> you had an interesting article in which you interviewed a lot of people about joe biden and the changes to him. you make an interesting point. this is why i was asking about this. those who do not interact with biden regularly such as democratic donors and foreign leaders are often the ones who noticed the change most acutely. senior aide to interact with biden regularly said they have not noticed stark changes. that's pretty logical. i think we can all think about that in our own lives if you don't see somebody for a year or two you'll notice they've lost weight or look older. the people around biden encouraging him to stick with this our family, friends and

people who work with him every day. >> i think that's right. my colleagues today had a story about how senator mark warner who is the head of the senate intelligence committee is working to convene a group of senators to try to convince president biden to exit the race. i think this is important because senator warner is viewed as a serious senator, he has a good relationship and has been critical at times of the administration but people have said his close aides are not likely to tell him to exit and if anyone is going to ultimately prevail upon him it doesn't mean they will, it would be senators given he served in the senate for 36 years. in this article we did about the presidents aging seeming to accelerate according to people who interacted with him they mostly pointed to physical traits. a stiffer gait the president has acknowledged that he just

moves around slower, but they also mentioned more frequent lapses like briefly losing his train of thought before getting back on track were seeming a little less lucid. one of the most wrecking anecdotes we got was that leaders at the g7 who typically only see the president once a year every few months if they come to washington for a bilateral meeting were especially struck by how much older he seemed when they saw him and came away with the impression of wondering that he seemed able to do the job now but they couldn't fathom how he would be able to do it four years from now. i think that's probably the question a lot are grappling with when they see him. he gives speeches, he was energetic at the rally today, but i think the physical appearance in many ways bears on voters impressions of whether he can continue to do the job for another term. >> one of the interesting things from your reporting is that while joe biden was pretty clear, stephanopoulos must have asked a dozen times, will you

consider stepping out? he said not unless the lord almighty comes down himself. your reporting is otherwise that he is torn between this idea of staying in and what happens if the wave of people calling for him to step aside gets substantially larger. >> that's right. a big part of the goal was to try to assure the jittery democrats he is still up for this and the debate performance last week was an aberration, not the norm. there's democrats who were skeptical and over talking to lawmakers and officials who watched that debate, i don't think he has convinced them. this was not the disastrous performance they witnessed last thursday. it's clear he wasn't quite as incoherent last time. he was able to put his thoughts together. he did this thing where he

trails off into a tangent and catches himself and says anyway and tries to pivot back. people who followed for a while are familiar. there will several things that stuck out to the sources that i've talked to. the first is one lawmaker texted me saying biden still looks shaky even under controlled conditions. that last response is the one that has gotten democrats most nervous where he was asked what happens if you lose to donald trump and biden said something along the lines of i believe of the best to do this and if i give it my all, do my best and that's what it's about. one official texted they were sick to their stomach hearing that. this is not youth sports biden himself has said this is about the survival of democracy, the fate of the republican here is saying all i can do here is do my best. there is an element of denial that is sticking with some democrats about the polls, the state of the race. we know joe biden consistently feels underestimated and has legitimate beef in that regard but when it comes to general

election polls the 2020 polls showed him crushing donald trump and he narrowly beat donald trump. this time he has been losing. they don't say my approval rating is bad. the question democrats will ask themselves is is he taking a clear eyed view of where he is in this race and is he going to give them something to try to turn things around? at this moment i don't think democratic officials heard what they wanted to hear which is a president who knows he needs to do something big to turn this around. >> jittery democrats. there are sort of a bunch of people for whom this discussion seems important and there are some jittery democrats, some chatter. some joe biden talked about in one of his responses when george stephanopoulos seemed to ask do you understand where this pressure is coming from and he said the media. i want to understand from your

perspective, how should this conversation be going on and where should it be going on? i don't buy the argument and shouldn't be happening at all. what is the way to do this? your concern is democrats have a tendency to eat their own. >> at every level. some of it is campaign craft. if your party is in power and you're going through moment like this where your president needs you, what do you do in that moment? you could say something like you come on tv or wherever and say you've been a great president. he's entitled to make his own decision and you make that decision now. behind the scenes you recognize you have some real issues we have to deal with. you don't have that much time to the convention or election. any party will have to raise money and go there and introduce himself to the voters, all of that needs to

happen. there's a lot that needs to happen behind the scenes that i think one would be concerned as being brought to the public. that in and of itself does not necessarily so confidence in the apparatus. the campaign craft is really important here. from a media standpoint i do think it is important to acknowledge what voters are thinking, how they are feeling, but also be able to not create an equivalency between what we are talking about with respect to joe biden and everything that donald trump has said that's been a lie. there are questions -- >> there's no question. the supreme court has done a ridiculous thing and donald trump is carrying with project 2025 despite trying to disown it. >> it is a -- it's legitimate

to want to hear more from joe biden in every instance but especially now. what i want us to be careful about is if we don't hear from joe biden in these unscripted moments as much as we may want if we agree he generally tells the truth in those moments let's also say that is far better than the number of times donald trump talks about lies every time he opens his mouth. how many lies is equal to that one truth? if we can't play that kind of game, that equivalency, even if we want joe biden to be able to speak more what is he saying? can we believe what he's saying and can he back that up? >> joe biden, when talking about his successes, talked about economic successes and the price of drugs but really leaned into -- we will talk about this in 25 years, his international stuff. the south pacific, the stuff with china, the 50 countries he got together in ukraine, the

expansion of nato. he even said a middle east peace deal and said that i hope will come to fruition because we are discussing the fact that might actually happen. those world leaders who have recognized or said they recognized decline in joe biden, do they offset that with the idea that joe biden has been in terms of foreign policy and domestic policy a fairly successful president? >> they definitely recognize he and many ways is a foreign policy president. he was the chair of the senate foreign relations committee, came into office with a lot of experience. i spoke with a number of senior white house aides for this article who said while he was at the g7 that other leaders are looking to him for leadership on issues ranging from russia's invasion of ukraine to china to a number of global issues.

he came into office saying he wanted to strengthen alliances. he's overseen the addition of countries to nato which is not a small feat. i think global leaders recognize this but i think one of the important things to note is they have such heightened anxiety about the prospect of a second trump term. i talked to a number of experts and people who have spoken with these leaders who say european capitals especially have long been pining for the potential of trump presidency trying to map out who would be in the administration, different ways to talk about increased spending among nato countries that would appeal to trump and after the presidents debate performance those efforts took on a heightened urgency because it made the prospect of trump coming into office more real. while they may note biden seems mentally sharp and he's lead on these issues they are very concerned about his ability to beat trump and what that would mean if trump were to assume office and see what we saw in the first term, baby worse than

before where he wants to sort of pull the u.s. back from global alliances and rip up long- standing norms. >> thank you very much. we appreciate you joining us. one of biden's campaign senate defenders. we will get his reaction to that interview and some say democrats are huddling to figure out a way forward. our coverage will continue after a short break.

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we are back with special coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview since thursday debate. addressing the calls for him to step aside from the presidential rate amid concerns to win re-election. joining our conversation is the democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. it's good to see you again. thanks for being with us. >> it's always been a pleasure and it's nice to see you. >> you have a remarkable perspective on this as somebody who struggled through debate performances, was actually discussed about not being well enough to continue and then won an election. i want to hear your take on everything that's gone on in

the last nine days with joe biden including tonight's interview. >> thank you for bringing that up. i've been talking about this. i've been exactly where he is as well. he's on a much bigger stage, but mine was the biggest race in the cycle. everybody was convinced we are done, look at what he's done. he is unfit and said all kinds of terrible kinds of terms and everything like that. right now, i would like to remind everybody that all the polls said fetterman is going to lose the senate throughout all of this. i would like to point out that two days ago, dr. oz was tweeting about constipation on x and i'm sitting here now as a senator talking about why joe biden is going to be our guy. >> it wasn't like you were the subject of some big wave that got you elected. what do you do in an instance like this if you are joe biden,

everybody's giving him advice tonight, the whole country, you stay in or get out. >> it wasn't a big wave. we actually did carry that. i also say the experts are saying the democrats were going to get destroyed in the 22 cycle and everybody said you can't be seen with joe biden, he wasn't popular. i was proud to campaign with him and i did that. he stuck by me and i'm sticking by him right now through this too. he's been a great president and i'd like to remind everybody watching right now if it wasn't for joe biden trump would be sitting in the white house right now and running for his third term. we owe him a lot and certainly owe him enough time to really make his case to those people after his debate. >> let's underscore that a little bit. i think there are a lot concerned about what you just said. donald trump is the other option.

at the moment. joe biden may make a different decision but there is a strange world we are in in which we discussed all of this about joe biden given his record as president when the other guy is actually involved in a conspiracy to dismantle democracy. he had some kind of weird post which he said he's never read this roger 2025 but disagrees even though he's never read it. this is very serious. if donald trump becomes president again it's going to be a different world. >> yeah. of course. my money is on the guy that kicked in 2020. i want to be clear it's going to be close. it's always going to be close. it was close in 2016, close in 2020 and 2024 will be there too. donald trump is back here. democrats panic and our pans after a bad debate. after 34 convictions or felonies the republicans show up and dressed like him and go all

in on trump. we can learn something here and stand by our president through this. after 50 years and after almost four years as a great president i think he's entitled to have his support to make his case after a debate that we can all agree was rough. i know what that's like. i am not the sum total of a bad debate and certainly the president is either. >> there might be for elected democrats who are calling for him to step aside and there's talk tonight of a movement being led by senator warren. >> who is that? >> i take it you've not been involved in that conversation or been invited to it. >> yeah. at any rate, if you want to betray the president like that you're entitled to your opinion but enjoy your three minutes of fame. otherwise i'm going to stand with the president and i want to remind you that this would be

donald trump running for his third term if it wasn't for joe biden taking them out in 2020. >> does your standing by the president or admission democrats could take a lesson from republicans -- does that mean you believe joe biden should stay in the race or your point is you stay by him and that's his decision? >> of course i'm staying by him because he's been a great president. like i said, after 50 years in public service and taking out trump and getting us through a pandemic he's successfully managed to mac wars and delivered aid for taiwan. against china throughout all of this. now our economy is in the world and be, over 200,000 new jobs just today that was announced. everyone, all these experts

were saying we were going to have a recession and crater. we are actually kicking. he must be doing something right. after one debate people are willing to throw him away? i refuse to accept that and i'm going to push against that in the strongest terms. >> the pushback involves your colleagues, elected officials and the party, people calling for him to step out, a lot of people in media. what about the public? what about the public who saw the debate last week and worry about it? 81 million voted for joe biden the last election, about 80 million people didn't vote. they were not motivated enough to vote last time around are the people that democrats need to win this election. at least some of them. >> we all have to support joe biden. i want to address all the other crazy stuff happening even before this debate. we are going to abandon biden

or walk away or i'm going to be uncommitted. congratulations, if you are panicking now you are willing to dig around this because we need all in on this. if you think you're sending a message as a democrat voting for someone else or throwing away your vote the message wasn't 2000, that was tanking gore and that his two terms of bush. if you thought you would be clever and send a message in 2016 and vote away for somebody like stein congratulations. that got us trump. if you want to do this in 2024, if you want to play with that kind of fire you're going to -- excuse me, you really have to own that kind of burn. democrats and those people concerned by having a second term of trump all have to agree. i think he's been a great

president, when you consider what the alternative is just lien in and deliver a second term for joe biden. >> good to talk to you as always. one of these days you will get comfortable with me and come out of your shell and tell me what you really think. nice to see you again. >> all right, thanks. it's always a pleasure. >> senator john fetterman. stomach we continue to track reaction to the interview to the debate that shook up the 2024 race. our coverage continues on msnbc. we will be right back.

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the decision made by the supreme court on immunity. the next president is not just whether about he or she knows what they are doing, it's not about a conglomerate of people making decisions, it's about the character of the president. the character of the president is going to determine whether or not this constitution is employed right away. >> we are back with their special coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview since last week's debate led to whether he should exit the race. the president sought to reassure voters he is the person to defeat donald trump in november. let's bring in washington post

opinion writer and msnbc political analyst the staff writer for the atlantic, basil staying with us as well. tom and jennifer, i've been reading everything you've published in the last week. despite the fact you don't have the same position on this i think you would both agree and i will start with tom that the character is the issue. you both think we should think everything's of whether joe biden should stay but tom you make clear character is the issue and everything needs to be done to ensure donald trump is not the next president. >> right. i think a lot of this debate has gotten off the rails with people now falling into an argument that because legitimate concerns of whether joe biden can get through this campaign, i think he can do the job but i think the campaign -- winning is different than doing the job. somehow that means we're having a debate of whether joe biden is better than donald trump. there is no question, joe biden

is vastly better than donald trump. i've written repeatedly i think he has a remarkable first-term record in fact. the notion that somehow because of the debate, we are back to square one in saying we don't know anything about either of these guys so we have to start all over. that's not what is happening here and i think the people doing that -- i think there are a lot of folks who don't want to talk about this that are purposely pushing it to that because that is an entirely different subject. >> had you think they should play out at this point? >> what has been tried has not worked. one interview is obviously not going to satisfy many people. also, democrats who have gone to him or have had questions or spoken on background have not been nearly explicit enough because he has not heard from them in one uniformed voice this is not going to work.

if nancy pelosi, hakeem jeffries, some of his closest and dearest colleagues from delaware were absolutely flat out honest and said this to his face he perhaps would not be living in a world in which he thinks everything is fine. i totally agree with tom on two things. one, it's not a question of who is better. if joe biden were in a coma i would vote for him because the name of the game here is keeping someone committed to destroying the constitution out of office. the second is i think there has to be a limited period of time. democrats have to be clear. you've got to get out, you've got to do town halls and satisfy people. give a time limit, set some reasonable expectations and if he doesn't and they feel the

polls are headed the wrong direction that this is becoming a desperate situation then they have to either publicly or forcefully explicitly, to his face, tell him hard news. i can't think of anyone better if it comes to that then nancy pelosi. >> tom, i know you've used the term but you basically said even less fit than you think he is joe biden would be a better president. part is because it takes a village to be a proper president. donald trump says i alone can fix it and he's smarter than everyone in the room so you worry donald trump as president is a destructive force. that said, you're not really questioning, as i read your writing, joe biden's ability to be president and to be a good president and a second term. you are simply worried of his ability to win the presidency at this point. >> yes. thank you for being clear about it because to even raise that

question people then think you are raising joe biden is not good president, he's not fit, not capable. my only concern is who can get to 271 electoral votes and defeat donald trump? it makes me not a democrat but part of the pro-democracy coalition that understands donald trump is a mentally disturbed would- be autocrat who wants to destroy the constitutional structure of the united states. if joe biden can do that, great. i think in the past few days president biden's behavior, including tonight in the interview i'm sorry to say, raises the question of are you up to this fight? can you do this and prevent this from happening? i don't think he's answer that question. i know jen and i were supposed to disagree but i agree there has to be a time beyond which

people say it's not going to happen. again, if he can do it that's terrific. i've written many times i think he's done a great job, but it can't go on forever. i think we all knew after the debate the idea of limping along and pretending this didn't happen wasn't an option in the real world of politics. >> clearly there's an amount of time and i don't know what that is but fortunately it is july now and not august or september, but was this a conversation that should've been had earlier and if not why not? >> we can say it should have. i think it actually was to some degree. the problem was when you have an incumbent president who is doing well, we have a strong economy as people like stevens have pointed out, presidents with these kinds of records don't lose elections.

there was no way he was going to, at that stage, have this disastrous performance decide i'm not going to run. people did raise the issue but no one in the democratic party and i think this was probably why, wanted to actually primary him because when incumbent presidents get primary they generally lose. see jimmy carter. i think it would've been nice to have had this and been able to convince him and be certain of the alternative, but we are where we are. i would just add two things very briefly. one is i think the period of time we have had has at least this abused people of the notion that if he does step away we will simply spin the dial and take some somewhat unknown white governor from the middle of the country. that is not happening. the choice will be do we have a presidential candidate who can win in the person of joe biden

or kamala harris? to the extent which that conversation has sort of been had and people in the democratic party are coming to the conclusion it is going to be her. by the way, she has a really good skills because no one has been more effective on abortion were quite going to get under his skin like kamala harris, at least that is a positive development. >> thanks to both of you for your approach on all of this. basil still staying with me kind of like my bodyguard. where the race goes from here. our special coverage continues after a very short break. thw zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married.

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for 365 days. not in my house you don't. nature is wild. your home doesn't have to be. president biden's interview tonight comes at a pivotal time for the 2024 election. the next week of events for biden is considered to be absolutely critical to biden aides and one former official with knowledge of the discussions told nbc news before friday's interview. the president is aware he needs to perform well in public appearances over the next few days, and that anything short of that could cement public opinion that he should leave the race according to sources. joining basil and me at the table is 2024 campaign who has worked with me for a long time but it's the first time we have spoken in your context.

i'm very curious what your making of all of this, particularly today. joe biden had a strong rally performance and then he had a performance and interview in which the jury is still out. >> one thing i've been doing immediately after the debate is talking to voters in battleground states and i can tell you there are a coalition of core joe biden fans acknowledge he underperformed at that debate but still plan on standing behind him. i had voters tell me a disaster, sad, anxious. it wasn't about joe biden as much as it's against donald trump. i tested a few after tonight's interview to see where the their head was at. they want to see more of this. it won't dissuade all concerns over joe biden's age but at least in making this attempt to doing these interviews and ramping up the campaign and going to more states and making himself more accessible that helps his cause.

non-sense, four years of donald trump, three years of joe biden with donald trump hanging around in the background. you would think there is nobody left in america who could possibly think a debate ly performance is going to change your vote to the other guy. >> right. >> and yet we're here. >> it may not send them to donald trump but it may slow their enthusiasm which is a vote for donald trump. so that is the chief concern. does this tamp down enthusiasm for joe biden but if we zoom out a little bit, there are three things democrats would find more use in. more senator john fettermans. that kind of defense of . the president is sorely needed in this particular moment. and what jennifer and tom talked about will be critical.

though we could be somewhat dismissive of polls from time to time. they do signal to donors where to push their money so polling is important. you know, their ability to say to joe biden, we want you to make a decision. if you do it, we will go now. we need to get behind them. so that timing is critical. third, something we haven't touched on in terms of the project 2025 is what henson did at the bet awards. the fact a person who clearly cares about the issues, talked about it on a stage where you wouldn't expect it. my time line is full of project 2025. that is one of the tactics that the democrats have. is to get folks like that to start getting people who may not be at the forefront of talking about these issue to do so. >> donald trump today posted that he is not involved in

project 25. the whole thing is designed for him and the head of the heritage foundation has given an interview on this network to my colleagues to say this is what will happen if donald trump gets elected. >> that last part is the way you get folks engaged if not just for joe biden, but everything joe biden stands for. >> are voters as jittery and nervous as the chattering class is about this? they might have agreed that the debate performance was terrible. tell me how does that manifest? >> not much has changed since november. they are all very pragmatic. it hasn't always been they are super enthusiastic to vote for joe biden again. there have been concerns about his age since i started this job, but the real question whent i speak to them is who is the better alternative? a lot of voters even after the debate performance, they will feel he may be the best option

democrats have. and there was a sense of a reality check from voters that some in the media class may not grasp the way these voters do. and at this stage of the race, the likelihood of nominating someone else and having them take on the challenge of taking on trump, there's fear that won't result in any sort of tangible change that will help democrats. so in my experience so far, voters i speak to, it's a matter of making sure the core constituencies are ready to go out and those moderate voter who's haven't been tuned in long are presented two options. it is not just joe biden. it is donald trump. >> we have one minute left. you think anything changed tonight? >> i don't think much changed tonight. but one night was never going to do it. i go back to this.

more john fettermans. when the independents do start paying attention, you want to hear more people like him pe defending joe biden as a road map for the future. >> i appreciate your analysis. you spent a lot of time with me today. it is great to see you in this role we are in. all the roles you take on for us. thank you. for all you are doing. thanks for being with us for our special report tonight. i will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. for more reaction to president biden's interview tonight as well. the newest installment of the velshi banned book club. stay with msnbc throughout the evening. our coverage continues right after this. evening. our coverage continues right after this. [music playing]

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it's 9:00 p.m. in new york. i'm ali velshi sitting in for alex wagner. we heard from the president of

the united states 22 uninterrupted minutes. joe biden standing firm despite concerns in and among those in the party. who can defeat donald trump in november. in an exclusive interview with george stephanopoulos, president biden was asked about his fitness to serve. >> elections are about the future, not the past. the question on so many people's minds right now is can you serve effectively for the next four years? >> i'm the guy that shut putin down. >> i'm the guy that got 50 nations. i'm the guy that got

japanese to expand their budget. for example, when i decide, used to have 40% computer ship. cell phone to weapons. we are down to virtually nothing. now we have tens of billions of dollars investing in the united states to ensure we will own the industry again. >> biden said he had a cold and it was just a bad night. >> i guess the question, the problem is you said going back to 2020, watch me.

>> the events in north carolina. the events in georgia. events like this today. large crowds. overwhelming response. no slipping. i just had a bad night. at one point, george stephanopoulos asked him to reflect. >> are you sure you are being honest with yourself when you say you have the mental and physical capacity to serve another four years? >> yes i have. george, last thing i want to do is not be able to meet that. some of the senior economists.

if i stop now,. >> are you being honest with yourself as well about your ability to defeat donald trump right now? >> we'll hear more from president biden. joining us now, nbc news senior political reporter sahil kapur and mike memoli who was in wisconsin. and white house reporter for the washington post is here. thank you all for joining us. mike, i want to start with you. because you have literally known joe biden the longest. you have traveled with him for a long time. there's no question regardless of how he answers george stephanopoulos, we are all older than we were seven years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. what is your sense of how he

responded and what's sort of the biden world sense of how he performed tonight? >> well, the view of the campaign tonight is that when you take tonight's interview in which they believe he took every tough question that george stephanopoulos could muster and you combine that with the rally i was covering here, you see a president who continues to energize and motivate a core group of supporters in that room, buts a still has the values that got him into this office in the first place and focused on the right things the voters can still beat donald trump. as i have been looking at my phone every minute since this interview was over, it is not clear to me that the audience he needed to reach and convince tonight was satisfied. a lot of democrats who i have been talking to throughout the past week feel like it has been maybe two steps forward but three steps back that maybe this interview would have been more effective had he did it in combination with that rally

last week in north carolina the day after the debate. rather than something that built over time. took on sort of a super bowl type level of importance by the buildup to this tonight. and so, watching president biden there, i just see the person i have been covering now for over 16 years now. someone who is very proud, very proud of his record. he thinks he has done more in four years as president than any president before him. he thinks he still can. and will beat donald trump. the audience that needs to be convinced is in his party. i think everyone watching tonight is going to take away maybe they thought he held his own. the debate performance last thursday, we can't overstate what a seismic moment that was in shaking the confidence of democrats and it will take a lot more than one rally and one interview to reassure democrats that the stakes are so high. democrats will continue to walk on egg shells until this is

resolved. >> you had an interesting article in which you interviewed a whole lot of people about joe biden and sort of the changes to him. and you make it interesting, an interesting point. this is why i was asking mike about this. those who don't interact with biden regularly are often the ones who notice the change most acutely. senior aids who interact with biden regularly say they have not noticed stark changes. they are family, friends, people who work with them every day. >> chairs the senate intelligence committee is

working to convene a group of senators to try to convince president biden to exit the race. and i think this is really important because senator warner is viewed as a serious senator. he has a good relationship with the president. he has been critical at times of the administration. but people have said his family. it would be senators given he served in the senate for 36 years. in the article we did about the president's aging accelerating in the last few months, they mostly pointed to physical traits which the president himself has acknowledged in recent days he just moves around slower. but they also mentioned more frequent lapses like briefly losing his train of thought before getting back on track. or just seeming a little bit less lucid. one of the most striking anecdotes we got was the leaders at the g7 who typically

only see the president once a year every few months if they come to washington for a bilateral meeting or especially struck by how much older he seemed when they saw him and came away with the impression of wondering that he seemed able to do the job now. but they couldn't fathom how he would be able to do it four years from now. it is probably the question a lot of voters are grappling with. he was energetic at the rally in wisconsin today. the physical appearance in many ways bears on voters' impressions of whether he can continue to do this job for another term. >> one of the interesting things from your reporting is that while joe biden was pretty clear, stephanopoulos must have asked him a version of this a dozen times about will you consider stepping out. would you step out and he said not unless the lord almighty comes down himself. your reporting is otherwise. that he is torn between this

idea of staying in and what happens if the wave of people calling for him to step aside gets substantially larger. >> that's right. a big part of the goal here for president biden was to try to assure the jittery anxious democrats that he is still up for this. that the debate performance last week was about aberration. not the norm. a lot of democrats were skeptical and the last 30 and 40 minutes talking to a bunch of democratic lawmakers and officials who watch that debate. i don't think he has convinced them. it is very clear he wasn't quite as incoherent. he was able to put his thoughts together. he did this thing that biden often does where he trails off into a tangent and catches himself and pivots back. people who have followed him for a while. the first is one democratic lawmaker texted me saying biden still looks shaky even under

controlled conditions. that last response is the one that has gotten democrats most nervous. biden said something along the lines of i believe i am the best person to do this and if i do my best, that's what it is really about. one democratic official texted they were sick to their stomach hearing that. saying this is not youth sports that biden himself has said this is about the survive of democracy. the fate of the republic is on the line. all i can do here is do my best. and there is an element of denial that is also sticking with some democrats about the polls. about the state of the race. we know joe biden consistently feels underestimated and he has legitimate beef in that regard but when it comes to general election polls, the 2020 polls showed him crushing donald trump and he narrowly beat donald trump. this time he has been losing. so i think the question democrats are going to ask themselves is, is he taking a

clear eyed view of where he is in this race and is he going to give them something to try to right the ship, to try to turn things around? at this moment, i don't think democratic officials heard what they wanted to hear. a lot of them at least. a president who knows he needs to do something big to turn this around. >> we talked about jittery democrats. there are a bunch of people for whom this discussion seems very important and some of them are jittery democrats. some of them, joe biden talked about it in one of his responses when george stephanopoulos asked him do you understand where this pressure is coming from and he said the media. i just wanted to understand this from your perspective. how should this conversation be going on? i don't buy the argument it shouldn't be happening at all.

but what's the way to do this? >> some of it is campaign craft. right? that if your parties are in power, and you are going through a moment like this where your president needs you, what do you do in that moment? you come on tv or wherefore and say i have been a great president the last four years, he is entitled to make his own decision. behind the scenes, you recognize you have real issues to deal with. to the general election. any party that replaces will have to raise money. go there and introduce themselves. there's a whole lot that need to happen behind the scenes that i think one would be concerned is being brought to the public. and that in and of itself doesn't necessarily sow confidence in the apparatus. so the campaign craft is really

important here. but from a media standpoint, i think it is important to acknowledge what voters are thinking. how they are feeling. but also be able to not create an equivalency between what joe biden, what we are talking about with respect to joe biden and everything that donald trump has said that has been a lie. every time he has opened his mouth. there are questions as to. >> there is real damage we are been talking about eight days. the supreme court has done a ridiculous thing. and donald trump is carrying on with project 2025 despite trying to disown it on social media today. >> correct. and it is a legitimate to want to hear more from joe biden in every instance but especially now. but what i want us to be careful about is that if we don't hear from joe biden in these unscripted moments as much as we may want, if we agree that he generally tells the truth in those moments,

let's also say that, that is far better than the number of times donald trump talks but lies every time he opens his mouth. right? so how many lies is that one truth? if we can't play that kind of game, that equivalency. even if we want joe biden to actually be able to speak more, what is he saying? can we believe in what he is saying and has he backed that up? >> joe biden when talking about his successes, he talked about economic successes and the price of drugs. but he really leaned into it. no president gets credit for this during their time. we will talk about it in 25 years. his international stuff. the south pacific. the stuff with china. the 50 countries he got together in ukraine. holding putin's feet to the fire. the expansion of nato. and he even said at a middle east peace deal, we are discussing the fact that might

actually happen. those world leaders said they recognized decline in joe biden. do they offset that with the idea that joe biden has in terms of foreign policy and domestic policy a pretty successful president? >> they definitely recognized that he in many ways is a foreign policy president. he was the chair of the senate foreign relations committee. came in with a lot of foreign policy experience. i spoke with a number of senior white house aids who said while he was at the g7, that other leaders or looking to him for leadership on issues ranging from russia's invasion of ukraine to china. he came into office saying he wanted to strengthen alliances. so i think global leaders do recognize this. but i think one of the important things to note here,

they have such heightened anxiety about the prospect of a second trump term. and i talk to a number of experts who said they have long been planning for the potential of a trump presidency. trying to map out who would be in a trump administration. who they would deal with. different ways to sort of talk about increased spending among nato countries. things that would appeal to trump. and that after the president's debate performance, those efforts took on sort of a heightened urgency because it made the prospect of trump coming into office more real. so i think while they may, you know, note that biden still seems mentally sharp, that he has light on these issues, they are very concerned about his ability to beat trump. rip up long standing forms. >> thanks to all of you. we appreciate you joining us,

basil will stick with me. up next, we will get senator john fetterman's reaction to the interview and the news some senate democrats are figuring out a way forward. our special coverage continues after a short break. verage cons after a short break.

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we are back with special coverage of president biden's sitdown interview. the president addressing the growing calls for him to step aside from the presidential race amid concerns over his ability to win reelection. joining our conversation now is the democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. good to see you again. it's been a long time since we have spoken. thank you for being with us tonight. >> yeah. it has always been a pleasure and it is nice to see you again. >> you have a remarkable unique perspective on this as somebody who struggled through debate performances was actually discussed about not being well enough to continue and then won an election. >> thank you for bringing it

up. i have been talking about this. i have been exactly where he is as well. of course, you know, he is on a much bigger stage. but mine was the biggest race in the cycle and everybody was convinced that we are done, look at what he has done. he is unfit and said all kinds of terrible kinds of terms and everything like that. and now, right now, i would like to remind everybody that all the polls, fetterman is going to lose and we are going to lose the senate throughout all of this. two days ago, dr. oz is tweeting about constipation on x. and i'm sitting in here now as a senator talking about why joe biden will be our guy. >> it's not like you were the subject of some big wave that got you elected. what do you do in an instance like this? if you are joe biden, everybody

is giving joe biden advice. what do you. >> honestly. it wasn't a big wave. and, you know, we actually did, we did carry that but all the experts said the democrats were going to get destroyed and everybody said that well, you can't be seen with joe biden. he wasn't popular in our cycle. i was proud to campaign with him and i did that. he stuck by me and i'm sticking with him too. he has been a great president. i would like to remind everybody watching right now. if it wasn't for joe biden, trump would be siting in the white house right now and he would be running for his third term right now. so we owe him a lot and we certainly owe him enough time to make his case to the people who have concerns. >> donald trump is the other option. at the moment. now, joe biden may make a

different decision. but there is a strange world that we are in, in which we are discussing all of this about joe biden when the other guy is actually involved in a conspiracy to dismantle democracy. he had some kind of weird post today in which he said he never read this project but he disagrees with it. this is very serious. if donald trump becomes the president of the united states again, it will be a different world. >> yeah. well, of course. it is serious. now i want to be clear that it will be close. donald trump is back here. and you know what the democrats do? we panic. and our pants after a bad debate. the republicans show up and they dress like him. and they go all in on trump.

maybe we could learn something here. standby our president through this. through 50 years. after four years as a great president, he is entitle today have his support. i know what that's like. i am not the sum total of a bad debate. and certainly the president isn't either. >> there's talk tonight of a movement being led by senator warner of virginia. >> who is that? >> i take that you have not been involved in that conversation or been invited to it? >> at any rate, if you want to betray the president like that, you are entitled to your opinion. but enjoying your three minutes of fame. but otherwise, i'm going to stand with the president and i want to remind you that this

would be donald trump's running for his third term if it wasn't for joe biden. taking him out in 2020. >> let me ask you this. does your standing by the president your that democrats could take a lesson from republicans, does that mean you would believe joe biden should stay in the race or your point is you are staying by him and that is his decision? >> of course i'm staying by him. he has been a great, he is a great president as well. after 50 years of public service, and taking out trump and gotten us through a pandemic, he has successfully managed two foreign wars in ukraine and israel. and delivered that kind of aid for taiwan. against china throughout all of this. and now, our economy is the world's envy. just today, that was announced. everyone, all these experts were saying that we are going to have a recession and we are

going to crater. he must be doing something right. and now after one debate, people are willing to throw him away? it's like i refuse to accept that. and i will push back against that in the strongest terms. >> the pushback involves your colleague's elected official ins the party. people calling for him to step out. a lot of people in the media. what about the public? what about the public who saw that debate last week. and worry about it. particularly 81 million people voted for joe biden the last election. about 80 million people didn't vote as you know. registered voters who are not motivated enough to vote last time around. those are the people that democrats need in order to win this next election. at least some of them. >> we have to support joe biden. i want to address all the crazy stuff that was happening even before this debate.

we will abandon biden. we will walk away and be uncommitted. well congratulations. if you are panicking now, you are willing to dick around with this before all that. we need all in on this. and if you think you are going to send a message as a democrat, or voting for someone else or throwing away your vote, guess what? the message wasn't 2000. that was tanking gore and two terms of bush. if you thought you were going to be clever and vote for stein in 2016? well congratulations. that got us trump. so if you want to do this in 2024, if you want to play with that kind of a fire, you are going to really, you really have to own that kind of a burn. democrats and those people concerned by having a second term of trump all has to agree. he may not have to be our dream candidate. i think he has been a great president. when you consider what the

alternative is, just lean in and deliver a second term for joe biden. >> senator, good to talk to you as always. as i say one of these days, you will get comfortable with me and come out of your shell and tell me what you really think. nice to see you again. [ laughter ] >> hey. well, thanks. it is always a pleasure. >> senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. we will continue to track reaction of president biden's interview which shook up the 2024 race. our coverage continues right here on msnbc. we'll be right back. here on msnbc. we'll be right back. i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash. now i'll be smelling fresh all day long. [sniff] still fresh. ♪♪ get 6x longer-lasting freshness, plus odor protection. try for under $5!

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the decision recently made by the supreme court on immunity. the next president of the united states, it is not about a conglomerate of people making decisions. it's about the character of the president. the character of the president will determine whether or not this constitution is deployed a right way. >> we are back with more on

president biden's sit down interview after the debate. he wanted to reassure people he is the person to defeat donald trump. the staff writer for the atlantic, tom nichols, basil staying with us as well. tom and jennifer, i have been reading everything you published in the past week. i think you would both agree that the character is the issue. that we should think different things about whether joe biden should stay in the race. you made clear that character is the issue and everything needs to be done to ensure that donald trump is not the next president of the united states. >> right i think a lot of this debate has gotten off the rails with people now falling into an argument, i think legitimate concerns of whether joe biden can get through this campaign. i think he can do the job. i think a campaign is different and winning a campaign is

different than doing a job. there is no question. joe biden is vastly better than donald trump. i have written repeatedly. i think he has a remarkable first term record. and the notion that somehow because of a debate we are back to square one and we don't know anything about either of these guys so we have to start owl over den, that's not what's happening here. i think there are a lot of folks who don't want to talk about this. it is an entirely different subject. >> how do you think this should play out at this point? >> what has been tried has not worked. put it that way. one interview is not going the satisfy many, many people. democrats who have gone to him

or have had questions, have not been nearly explicit enough. they have not heard from him in one uniform voice. this is not going to work. if nancy pelosi, hakeem jeffries. some of his closest and deerest colleagues from delaware were absolutely flat-out honest with him and said this to his face, he perhaps would not be living in a world which he thinks everything is fine. now i totally agree with tom on two things. one, it's not a question of who is better. frankly, if joe biden were in a coma i would vote for him because the name of the game is keeping someone who would destroy the constitution out of office and the second is that i think there has to be a limited period of time.

democrats have to be clear. you have to satisfy people and do town halls. give them a time limit. set some reasonable expectations. and then if he doesn't and they still feel that the polls are headed in the wrong direction, that this is becoming a desperate situation, then they have to either publicly or forcefully explicitly to his face tell him some hard news and i can't think of anyone better if it comes to that than nancy pelosi. >> one of the things you wrote about, tom, you said a less fit than you think he is joe biden would be a better president. part of that is because it takes a village. donald trump doesn't express that. he says i alone can fix it and he is smarter than everybody in the room, so you worry that donald trump as president is a destructive force. that said, you are not really questioning joe biden's ability

to be president and be a good president in a second term. you are simply worried about his ability to win the presidency at this point. >> yes. and thank you for being clear about it. because of course, again, to even raise that question, people then think that you are raising, that joe biden is not a good president. that he is not fit. that he is not capable. my only concern is who can get to 271 electoral votes and defeat donald trump which makes me part of a pro democracy coalition that understands that donald trump is a mentally disturbed would be autocrat who wants to destroy the constitutional structure of the united states. if joe biden can do that, great. but i think in the past few days, president biden's behavior including tonight in the interview i'm sorry to say raises the question of are you really up to this fight?

can you do this and prevent this from happening? i don't think he has answered that question. there has to be a time beyond which people say okay, it's not going to happen. again, if he can do it. terrific. i have written many times i think joe biden has done a great job. but it can't go on for everything. and we knew after the debate, the idea of limping along and pretending all this stuff didn't happen wasn't an option in the real world of politics. >> ken, did we, look, there is an amount of time. i don't know what the amount of time is. it is not august or september. but was this a conversation question should have had earlier and if not, why not? >> we can say it should have. and i think it actually was to some degree. but the problem was when you

have an incumbent president doing well. a very strong economy as people like stevens have pointed out. there was no way we were going to go to that stage decide no, i'm not going to run. people did raise the issue. but no one in the democratic party and i think this was probably wise, wanted to actually primary him because when incumbent presidents get primaried, they generally lose. see jimmy carter. it would have been nice to have had this and convince him and be certain of the alternative. but we are where we are. and i would just add two things very briefly. one is i think the period of time that we have had has at least disabused people of the notion that if he does step away, we are simply going to spin the dial and pick some somewhat unknown white governor

from the middle of the country. that is not happening. the choice will be do we have a presidential candidate who can win in the person of joe biden or in the person of kamala harris? and to the extent to which that conversation has sort of been ahead and people in the democratic party are coming to the conclusion, yes, it will be her. and by the way, she has some really good skills because no one has been more effective on abortion and will get under his skin like kamala harris. at least that is a positive development. >> thanks to both of you. basil still staying with me. he's like my bodyguard. the coverage continues after a very short break. ontinues aftea very short break. wait for insurance to approve a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things

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a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. >> according to nbc news reporting, the next week of events for biden is considered to be absolutely critical .2 biden aides and one former official with knowledge of the

discussions told nbc news before friday's interview the president is aware that he needs to perform well in public appearances over the next few days and that anything short of that could cement public opinion that he should leave the race, according to sources. joining basil and me at the table, nbc news 2024 campaign embed nadia egon wu, who has worked with me for a long time but it's the first time we have spoken in your context as an embed and i'm very curious about what you are making of all of this, particularly today. joe biden had a very strong rally performance and then he had a performance in an interview in which the jury is still out. >> one thing that i've been doing immediately after the debate is talking to voters in battleground states and i can tell you that there are a coalition of core joe biden tends to acknowledge he sort of underperformed at that debate but still plan on standing behind him. i had voters who told me it was a disaster, it was said, i feel anxious but this isn't really about voting for joe biden as

much it is voting against donald trump. so they're standing behind him and i texted a few after tonight's interview to see where they are at and their answer is they want to see more of this. they're not sure it's completely assuaged all concerns that people might have over joe biden's age but at least they're making this attempt in doing these interviews and ramping up the campaign, going to more states, making himself more accessible. that at least helps his cause. >> this is interesting because after seven years of this nonsense, four years of donald trump, three years of joe biden with donald trump hanging around in the background, you would think that there's nobody left in america who could possibly think a debate performance is going to change your vote to the other guy. >> right. >> and yet we are here. >> it may not change your vote to proactively then go vote for donald trump but it may slow their enthusiasm. abstention is a vote for donald trump. so that is the chief concern. does this take down some enthusiasm for joe biden, even

if you really did want to defeat donald trump. but i think the three things that democrats would find good use, one, more senator john fetterman. like that kind of defense of the president i think is sorely needed by the president in this particular moment. also think what jennifer and tom talked about is going to be really critical point at this time period is very, very important. because even though we can be somewhat dismissive of polls from time to time, polls do signal to donors where to give their money and where to push that money. so poehling is going to be important. if donors come out on all of this is important and their ability to say to joe biden, like we want you to make a decision but if you're going to do it we have to go down one way or the other because we need to get behind the best legs so that timing is critical. third, something we haven't really touched on in terms of the project 2025, which i want to raise, is what taraji p.

henson did the other day at the bet awards. the fact that a person who clearly cares deeply about the issues talked about it on a stage where you wouldn't necessarily expect it, and in the last couple days my timeline is full of project 2025. so that's, i think, one of the tactics that the democrats have, is to get folks like that to start getting people who may not be at the forefront of talking about the elections to do so. >> donald trump today posted that he's not involved in project 2025. the whole thing is designed, the heritage foundation has given an interview on this network to my colleagues to say this is what is going to happen if trump gets elected. >> i think that last part is the way you get folks to engage, not just for joe biden but for everything that joe biden stands for. >> tell me, nobby, are voters as jittery and nervous as the chattering classes about this? they might not have agreed that the debate formants was terrible. tell me how does it manifest for them? >> honestly the voters i've

spoken to, not much has changed for them since november, in the sense they are all very pragmatic. it hasn't always been that they're just super enthusiastic to go out and vote for joe biden again. there are concerns over his age since i started this job but the real question when i speak to them is who's the better alternative and a lot of voters i spoke to even after the debate performance, even though they acknowledged sometimes joe biden might not be at his best, still feel he might be the best option democrats have, and there was also a sense of a reality check from voters that may be some in the media class or pundits might not sort of grasp the way these voters do and at this stage of the race the likelihood of nominating someone else, having them take on the challenge of taking on donald trump, there's fear that that wasn't result in any sort of tangible change that will help democrats. in my experience so far, voters i speak to, it's really a matter of making sure the core constituencies are engaged and ready to go out and those more

so moderate independent voters who truly have not been tuned in that long or at least presented two options, which is something the biden campaign has really gone hard on, presenting the contest of it's not just joe biden, it's a matter of voting for donald trump, that means 2025, thinking about what the supreme court is doing and wrapping that into the message as well. >> we've got one question left, do you think any changed tonight? >> one night wasn't going to do it, just got to have more like that. i go back to this, what john fetterman said. when the independence to start paying attention, if they haven't already, you want to hear more people like him defending joe biden in the democrats as a sort of road for the future. >> appreciate your analysis. you spent a lot of time with me today so i appreciate that, basil. nandy, it's great to see you in this role that you're in. all the rules that you take on for us, you always execute with aplomb, so thank you for all that you're doing. basals michael and nadia guam lou, thanks for being with us for our special report tonight.

i will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. for more reaction to president biden's interview tonight, as well as the newest installment of the veil she banned book a club with legendary novelist tim o'brien. for now, stay with msnbc throughout the evening. our coverage continues right after this. after this. wait for insurance to approve a test or approve a medication. we didn't have to worry about any of those things thanks to the donations. and our family is forever grateful because it's completely changed our lives. - so this is pickleball? - pickle! ah, these guys are intense. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself.

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