leaked information to a blogger during a penalty phase of the arias trial and that he had inappropriate communications with a dismissed juror. in february 2020, martinez was dismissed from the county attorney's office. in july, he agreed to give up his offense to practice in the state of arizona, ending the misconduct complaint. martinez's attorney said, although he agreed to be disbarred, he was not admitting misconduct. meanwhile, arias remains behind bars after being the center of attention for so long, she is serving her sentence and living her own reality. that's all for this edition of "dave hon." craig melvin. thank you for watching. live good morning and welcome to the special holiday edition morning joe.

this morning, we have some of the recent top conversations and big interviews. we begin with my exclusive sitdown with vice president kamala harris and abortion rights advocate and survivor hadley duvall . we spoke on the two year anniversary of the supreme court overturning roe v wade. >> this is your first national media interview. given what is at stake today, can you tell people what you want them to take away from to know about your personal and deeply painful story, and why it is so relevant to women today? >> women today, if they are walking in the shoes that i was in, which was pregnancy from rape, they don't have a lot of options in some states. and that is very terrifying. and i will still forever be

that little girl. and you know, that is really who i do this for. knowing that i was in that position and the only thing that allowed me to hold onto hope were the words, you have options. those of the first things i heard after a look to the positive pregnancy test at 12 years old. >> you are bruised by her stepfather, correct? >> yes. >> it took a while to tell your mom about this. your abuser was her husband. i'm curious how you did it. and i'm thinking this question is for young girls out there who may be in a similar situation. >> when i was younger, you know, it took a lot of planning. i would sit and say, okay, the next time i will tell. or if this happens, i will tell. i would always have a reason and a way for that push, and

then it would come around and i would get scared. my mom is a recovering addict. when i was young, she went away to inpatient rehab and i know what that looks like. and i was finally at a point in my life that i have prayed for. my mom was not using drugs anymore. my mom was home, she was sober. and when i threatened to tell, i was told, you know, you will risk your mom's sobriety. so that really stuck with me. and you know, it always made me just want to keep the peace, because it was my family. my family had been hoping for it and praying for it for so long. i was realizing that i didn't have peace, and that seemed to be most important. so honestly, just going into high school and knowing that there were a lot of milestones that not only me but my sibling was about to accomplish, i just didn't feel like we had to live

in a secret anymore. i honestly texted my mom from school and i said don't let me back out of what i need to tell you tonight. she started asking me some questions and actually came and picked me up from school. and i couldn't even look at her. i said mom, i don't know how to say this to you. i'm just going to blurt it out. i've been sexually abused for 10 years. immediately, she was like -- we've got to figure something out. you got to go stay with a friend. i mom was in cosmetology school at the time and had knows income. >> and i you are speaking out. because a chump win would mean what for little girls in the situation you are in? >> it would mean the unmanageable. women with nonviable pregnancies , wanted pregnancies that are not viable that are killing these women -- there will be no

traveling to another state. it will be no options based on where you live. it would just be one rule for everybody, and that would be no abortions. and that is a very, very dangerous world for women. not only young girls, but women. >> madam vice president, you are here with hadley. in part because she is amazing, and also because her story resonates with you deeply. you have been close to similar stories in your own life, maybe even set the path of your career prosecuting sexual violence cases. can you tell us about that? >> when i was in high school, i learned that my best friend was being molested by her step father. and when i learned about it, i said to her, you're going to have to come live with us. i called my mother, and my mother said of course she has to come stay with us.

and so she did. at a young age, i decided i wanted to do the work that was about protecting women and children. i became a prosecutor and i specialized in child sexual assault. and the fact that after the dobbs decision came down, that laws had been proposed and passed, that is hadley said, makes no exceptions, even for rape or incest . ink about what this extremist are saying to a survivor of a crime of violence to their body. a survivor of a crime that is a violation of their body, and to say to that survivor, you have no right or authority to make a decision about what happens to your body next. that is a moral. that is immoral. and again, i say all of that to say, hadley, you are doing such

important work to be a voice. i will also mention that the majority of these cases don't get reported. and then in some states, they passed a law that says, if a woman or girl reports it to the police, then they might be eligible for an abortion. well, a lot of survivors don't report it to the police because of fear of retribution that they fear it will be even worse than what they are enduring. >> as i miscarried, if she had needed care for that today depending on where you live, you may not get it. it's been two years now since roe was overturned, and now we are dealing with the real reality of that, which is women believing out in parking lots, on bathroom doors. i am curious what your thoughts were when roe was overturned.

>> let's really be clear about how we got here. because the former president hand selected three members of the united states supreme court with the intention that they would undo the protections of roe v wade. and they did exactly as he intended. in state after state, we are saying what we call the trump abortion bans. including states with a six- week abortion ban. which tells you these legislators clearly don't know how a woman's body works or they don't care. and that most women don't even know they are pregnant at x weeks. and to your point, there are two , i think, coexisting issues here that are extremely important. one is the notion that the highest court in our land just took a fundamental right that had been recognized from the people of america, from the women of america, to make

decisions about their own body. the notion of it all that in this year of our lord, 2024, the highest court in the united dates of america would take such a fundamental read him from people? an understanding that this is not just a matter that is for debate and discussion and intellectual conversation. the real harm that has occurred every day in america since that case was decided and these laws are being passed, to your point, we know the stories about women seeking care because they are going to a miscarriage and being turned away by an emergency room because the physicians there are afraid they are going to be put in jail. in states like texas, they threaten prison for life for a healthcare provider just doing their job. i think when you look at this issue, most people agree you don't have to abandon your faith. you don't have to abandon your

faith or deeply held beliefs to agree that government should not be telling women what to do with their bodies. if they choose to, they will consult with their priest, their pastor, the rabbi, but not the government telling women what to do. >> what is at stake in this election? >> so much. if you have a woman in your life that means something to you , her life is at stake. it does not matter if she is 12, 9, 34 -- it really does not matter. if there is a woman who is in that reproductive age, then her life is at stake during this election, and it does not matter if you have never voted democrat in your life. it is get off your high horse, because women, we don't get to choose a whole lot. and you at least can choose who you vote for. and there is a lot of things that need to be worked on, and

we can't get it all done, but at the very least, we can get out of women's business when it involves their healthcare. i've always said i am pro minding your own business. live your religion, live it loudly. don't expect your religion to make the laws. and you know, your religion should be lived through and through, whether that is the law or not. however, you came up however you want to live your religion, but it shouldn't be forced on anybody else. your religion shouldn't determine everyone's outcome, because i don't believe that my god that i worship and that i have learned about all my life would have ever wished something like that upon the. coming up, we will be joined by two new york times are orders behind a new investigation into the years long political and religious campaign to end the federal protection of abortion rights. that is next on morning joe.

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that finally led to the dobbs decision. the book is titled the fall of tran01: the rise of a new america. it is worse how the rights most fervent antiabortion activists persuade the court to end nearly 50 years of precedent. joining us now, national religion correspondent of the new york times elizabeth dais and political correspondent lisa layer. today is pub day. >> today is pub day. >> congratulations. your baby is out in the world. deeply, deeply reported. like 350 interviews. you really get into the history of this issue. it's a lot to get through, but i guess i will start at the end, which is how the dam ultimately broke after this half-century effort to overturn roe versus wade.

donald trump getting in the white house obviously put those three justices on the supreme court, but at the end, what happened the pushed it over the finish line? >> what we did was look at the final decade of what we call the roe era . what we saw in this period was this tightly connected web of conservative antiabortion activists who are able to move the levers of power in their favor in ways big and small. working at state houses to start pushing through legislation. and then as you point out, donald trump gets elected. they jump on that train, it becomes a bullet train for them, and they get really lucky. they get those three seats on the supreme court. they are dealing with an abortion rights movement that is ill-equipped to take on this threat in a country that really has this pervasive sense of denial that this right that has been part for two generations could suddenly disappear. >> donald trump, obviously, evangelicals were skeptical of

him in 2016. he had talked about being pro- choice any times in public previous to that. ultimately, they realize they can maybe shave him a little bit because he so desperately wants to be elect did that they can dictate what they want from him. >> one of the really interesting things we found was it wasn't just evangelicals. catholics played a really important role in the antiabortion movement. growth, origins, evangelicals were actually late in coming to that in history. the leaders of the antiabortion movement really are rooted in their conservative christian values. values about family, womanhood, and of course, abortion. and what are story shutters is that it was those values that were really behind the movement. as lisa was saying, there's all these levers of power they hold. but at its core, this is

happening during a period when america is becoming increasingly secular. there so many changes when it comes to marriage, family, and sex. these are all things the abortion movement is hoping to change. it's not just about overturning roe. it's about a much bigger half- century plan to roll back the sexual revolution. >> you have watched this so closely to the view of faith and politics over the course of your career, culminating once donald trump is in the white house with 50 years of precedent overturned. >> right. 50 years overturned. elizabeth, you are right. catholics have been pro-life for quite some time. as i always joke on the show, evangelicals, my church, southern baptist, where pro- church from the time of jesus birth until the eagles broke up. when you say a new america, i

think it is interesting. it was a new republican party, and the redefinition by political activists in 1979 and 1980, what it meant to be an evangelical, what it meant to be a christian -- you have people like paul right rick and, you know, richard and jerry fell well just designing whole cloth, this is how to be the southern baptist democrat. so i'm curious. how did their political machinations in 1979 and 1980 not only change american politics, but based on your reporting, how did it change how evangelicals looked at their own faith and bringing in this political controversy that many now put at the center of their faith? >> well, look. if you think about politics influencing religion or

religion influencing politics, the story that we really been seeing is in the trump area, especially in this last decade, we are really seeing the merging of those two things and politics influencing religion. you think back to this very long game, they antiabortion movement, conservative christians think in generations. it's not just the political cycle. the people you mentioned, that's a couple generations ago. what our book talks about is, this most recent generation that actually got overturning roe over the finish line was really led by conservative christian women. they have a vision of what it means to be a woman in america and how motherhood fits into that. that really changed the game in the end, and it's not just the story of the religious right. there's a modern religious

right that is enormously influential and it's not just on issues about abortion. it's all kinds of cultural issues in this whole realm about rolling back the sexual revolution. >> this is a new generation of socially conservative activists, and they've gone -- i think donald trump's republican party expanded their horizons of what could be possible, and that's part of what we see playing out in politics right now, particularly on this issue. >> let's also just state what a lot of survey show. people call themselves evangelical is a cultural marker, not as a religious marker. tim keller said he stopped using the term evangelical to describe himself because the word have been so politicized. i am curious. in your reporting, i think the cliffhanger here as dobbs was being decided after the leak was whether john roberts was going to be able to get cavanaugh or coney barrett to go with him and just go with a

mississippi 15 week ban. i'm curious, what did your reporting find? how close did the chief justice get to getting one of those two to take a more incremental approach? >> well, he didn't get all that close. he certainly tried hard, but in the end, this isn't what happened. one of the most interesting things i think we found was we had covered some sort of internal documents that showed where this movement wants to go in the future and how elizabeth was talking about how this is a movement that is really intent on changing the structure or reverting in some ways the structure of american families. what we saw is they are looking at other things going forward and that was hinted in the decision by thomas. we got a handle on -- we are talking about trans rights, they were talking up parental rights, religion in public squares, things like schools and town meetings, same-sex

marriage. this is the beginning of a start of a series of cases on these issues that will wind their way to this court. >> this is exactly what i wanted to ask about. there is this fetal personhood. i say embryonic personhood, because i'm on the opinion side. but can you make this makes sense in the broader context of the follow roe? >> sure. i think for this movement, the follow roe was not the end. it was the beginning of the end. the goal here is to eliminate all abortion. they believe it is morally wrong, it is contradictory to many of their conservative faiths. they want to eliminate it. and so course, something like fetal personhood, which is basically the granting of the const traditional right to a fetus, which functionally makes all abortion legal, that would be part of the strategy. we see that playing out in states across the country.

>> those that want to defend abortion rights, were there things they could've done differently? were their inflection points were they simply didn't see the threat coming? >> you know, it's a hard question to answer in many ways. yes. we talked about some of those pivot points. but the thing they were really up against was this generational thinking. the right was planning and 50 year periods. they were never going to let up. the delusion of laws and state courts. how they were in state houses. the way they were transforming the courts slowly over time. these are things that are just bit by bit by bit. that's why we were so surprised , how did this actually happen? it's hard to see when it is just inching forward. but the left -- and hillary clinton talked about this to us in our interview with her.

the left just doesn't have that same kind of infrastructure at all. and so this is a big reckoning on the left for how are we going to -- or are we going to -- respond to this, and what is actually going to take? because it's not a quick easy gratification change. >> i also think the left was looking at changing the cultural conversation. the stigmatizing abortion as a procedure. and so they were really fighting for public opinion, right? and the antiabortion movement was fighting for the levers of power. and it turns out power is more powerful than public opinion, certainly when it comes to the courts. so i think there was also this mismatch of goals anyway. still ahead on morning joe, as concerns grow about misinformation and the 2024 election, a new study is looking at who is most affected by ai generated fake news and

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this week, a bipartisan group of senators released a road map for combating misinformation stemming from artificial intelligence. it encourages ai creators to implement robust protections ahead of this year's election while still protecting first amendment right. joining us now is nbc news correspondent and anchor for nbc news now daily -- which is doing great, by the way. love watching you guys. new reporting on who might be most affected by ai driven misinformation.

and what did you learn? the answer scares me a lot. >> it scares me too. what's interesting is the studies actually show it's not the baby boomers or even the millennial's that are having trouble clocking misinformation, generation z. adults under the age of 30 regularly get their news from tiktok. how does this generation actually distinguish between what is real and what is fake, and how does all of this mean for how they are what about this year? the answers i got were pretty surprising. >> reporter: misinformation is everywhere. from altered voices at a college football game. two ai generated political announcements. while it comes to actually spotting it, a recent survey found younger americans performed worse than their older counterparts on a misinformation test designed by the university of cambridge. the generation z, americans between 18 and 29 scoring worse

than any other age group. so what does that mean for this upcoming election? we sat down with a group of generation z students. >> about roughly half of you get your news from social media. what if i told you that studies have found that generation z is actually more susceptible to misinformation than older generations ? you believe that? >> it's no surprise, because they basically grew up with tablets and ipads. >> it is all on the same thing, all on the same platforms, both real and fake news. there's no really differentiating. >> we decided to put them to our own test. >> one side has real, one side has fake. >> reporter: showing examples of real news and fake news on the internet, some of which were created by ai. they spotted several of the fakes pretty easily, like this

ai generated image of joe biden in military fatigues. >> the guy in the back, his face is very distorted. it just doesn't look natural. >> ready? here we go. >> reporter: but others were trickier. >> is this photo of the bidens and the carter's real or fake? the answer is real. this was actually taken by the white house. and what's fascinating about that, it was probably done on a wide-angle lens. >> reporter: this former fooled half of the group. this one is fake. this was an ai generated image. and i actually can't make out the name on the hat. >> that's another thing. ai tends to really mess up words. >> reporter: is a concern shared by both congress and the new crop of nonprofit organizations aiming to detect ai generated images ahead of

the election, like the nonpartisan group true media.org. >> my biggest concern is that when it gets to the fall and even the 48 hours before the election that we will be flooded with false images showing president biden being rushed to the hospital, showing that there is an active shooter at an election site, and having all these things be false. but be credible. >> in the end, the students got a passing grade. >> i honestly thought i would fail because it is just so easy to create ai images and headlines. >> i think the most important thing is to not see things like that and move away from that being part of our info stream. >> from doing this test, it almost feels like you all aren't so worried about thinking that fake things are real, but instead, when you see real things, you are not actually sure if they aren't fake. am i hearing that correctly? does that sort of skepticism

affect the way that you feel about voting at all? >> it makes it a lot harder to think about voting, because you have to do a lot of extra work to find out if the things you are seeing are real. >> there's definitely times where i will be thinking, why bother if i cannot tell any sort of difference between the two? >> between true and false? >> between true and false. >> what's interesting is, you know, we only focus on those who are generation z and voting age, but new generations are actually showing how this generation of voters under 18 get their news. among the findings, more than half of teenagers were getting their news from social media. of those a get from youtube, 60% they are more likely to get it from celebrities and influencers rather than traditional news stations. >> if the news -- if there was

guidance and triple sourcing -- but they don't do it. >> i'm in the field and i'm talking to people, i want them to know, there are so many layers of checks and balances to make sure that what we bring you is accurate. >> nbc news correspondent and anchor morgan radford. great piece. thank you. coming up next, our next guest says one top university is struggling with a culture of fear and contempt. arthur brooks joins us with his thoughts on how to make improvements across higher education. arthur joins us next. to severe eczema disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema —fast.

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welcome back to morning joe. this spring, we saw a large increase in protest on college campuses mainly due to the war between israel and hamas. we talked with a professor at the harvard kennedy and business schools, arthur brooks, who says one top university is struggling with a culture of fear and contempt. >> let's talk about happiness. we were saying on the break, this is a university wide concern right now. kids aren't happy. >> is a country wide concern. you see an increase in mental illness or the symptoms of mental illness, you also see a gradual decline in happiness across the adult population going back to 1990 in this country gradually. this is because of declines in situations like faith and family and friendship and work. but more than that is the storms. the way we become attached to

social media and the political polarization in the country. all these things have been especially acute among young people and especially at universities. with the activism on campus, it's led to this current situation. >> you wrote in your piece make harvard happy again, there is a narrowing range of academic freedom and freeze each at harvard in decline. what do students feel in those lecture halls? >> it's not in every lecture hall, for sure. i lecture on the science of happiness and it's a very happy atmosphere, i hope so. the problem is kind of the culture that says that one side is right and the other side is evil, which is not harvard. it's across the academic world and it's been bubbling up over the last 15 or 20 years. that's the best way to make students unhappy is to see your friends, your former friends who disagree with you, they are denying your humanity and you should hate them.

what better way to create misery than to tell kids to hate their fellow students. >> there's almost a tiktok orthodox, and if you express an argument against that, a fact- based argument against that, they call you a bigot and they will effectively silence you or run you out of the classroom in some cases. >> it could be a problem. my colleagues and i at harvard and many universities around the country are saying, okay. we've got to do something. and they are. we are looking for more academic freedom or more discourse. i talked to alumni at my university. they love the place. why? because they were being challenged. because it was an unsafe space. the first time, they met people who are differently than they did, they loved their professors who challenged them, and that's what we need to get back to. if you want to make america happy again, we need to start loving people who disagree with us. >> let's widen the aperture on the happiness factor. if you bump into people 30, 45

years of age who have been in the market and raising a family, they may be -- about the cost of groceries or gasoline, but they are basically relatively happy. if you see people 20, 25 years old, they seem all to be unhappy. what is the deal there? >> people who are older will brought up in an environment that were more likely to have religious faith or something like religious philosophy in their lives. people are less likely to get married and have kids, which is a killer for happiness. people are less likely to have close friendships than when you and i were that age. they will have friends that work, but not real friends in life. and the relationship they have with work is changing. then you have the toxic group of social media, hatred and politics, worldliness from the coronavirus epidemic and this is created a really bad environment for young people. once we surface these ideas,

once we talk about this, on morning joe, we can have a happiness rebellion. >> starting with oprah, since he wrote a book with her. so you are talking about how free speech is stifled amongst students on these campuses. and so how does that contribute to general intellectual discourse and just the exchange of ideas and learning and growth , and also a capacity for forgiveness when someone does express an odious idea, and for people to learn? is there as much of a cancel culture within the student body? >> i think huge problem, because it weakens what we are trying to get to people. the idea is to have an unsafe intellectual space where we can like each other but here challenging ideas. that's how people grow and learn. it's also how people get happier. that's one of the things people look back to with the most sentimentality and the greatest

fondness of their college experience. they come out of college under those circumstances not knowing what the other side thinks. can you imagine going through life thinking half of america, what a bunch of idiots? you can't live that way because you are actually ignorant of the actual cultural environment in your own country. >> how do we break through that? it's so easy right now to only deal with your fellow travelers and to not see someone who you disagree with as a fellow human being. >> it is super important that those of us who are in leadership roles, administrators, professors, people in media and politics, we start talking openly about the fact that it not right for people not to be exposed to different points of view. we have to be kind of a joyful representation of people who disagree with us. we have to model this kind of behavior of loving people and being respectful to people with whom you disagree, because that kind of modeling is going to be

absurd to the next generation of americans. if we are running are in the tuitions with some of our immediate politics and academia, this kind of dark triad of nokia narcissistic leaders who say, i want power and the way i'm going to get it is by manipulating you into hating your enemies, that's where we are in this country today. if we can strike back against the dark triad personality characteristically see about leaders, then we start to win. >> arthur brooks leading the happiness rebellion. i like that. >> i'm an original member. >> by the way, this is mental health awareness month, so this is a great time to have these conversations. arthur brooks, always great to have you at the table. coming up, actor and director griffin done on his new book with new stories about his famous family. you are watching a holiday edition of morning joe. oe. 0% on everything home. yes!

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it has been 12 years since 20 students and six adults were gunned down at sandy hook elementary school in newtown, connecticut. this year, the students would've finished high school. instead, a moment of silence was held for them during an emotional graduations ceremony earlier this month. we spoke to writer, actor, and gun control advocate griffin dunne about the epidemic of mass shootings in america, his work with the brady campaign on

gun violence. he's also the author of the new memoir, the friday afternoon club. i want to get to the book in just a moment, but first tell us about your work with the brady campaign. >> well, it started -- it started some time ago. my parents were victims rights advocates as a result of my sister being murdered and the injustice that took place and the defamation that happened to her during the trial. and i wanted to be an activist in a similar area, and i've always been outraged by the proliferation of guns. and i worked with the brady campaign making psa's. and through that, i met a lot of families. a couple named sandy and lonnie phillips, whose daughter was killed in aurora. and more recently, by making a short -- or a play, rather,

called just five minutes, written francine wheeler, whose son, ben, was killed at sandy hook. we are putting that on. she was an actress who with david, her husband, moved to sandy hook out of new york for the safe neighborhood to raise their children. and they are also, you know, victims of these outrageous phone calls, the harassment that is taken place, that they've had to live through on top of everything else. i saw those interviews for those kids who are graduating that would have been in ben's class. i just broke my heart. i just thought of the wheelers and all those families. >> in the book, in this incredible book, the friday

afternoon club about your life and your family, there is a section in the book about the impact that the death -- the murder of your sister dominique had on the family. before that, i like to start with the idea that you grew up basically surrounded by a cavalcade -- i can't think of anything better to ask you to introduce the book to the viewing audience that humphrey bogart was the reason you moved to los angeles. what a sentence? >> how about that? my father was in live television , and he did a playhouse night, and they were doing a production of petrified forest, where humphrey bogart eventually played into the film. and he always like my father. and actually, frank sinatra was the one who also played, and he told frank sinatra, you should bring out dominic done to be the stage manager, because they were going to be in los angeles

for the live broadcast. he went to los angeles. he and bogie hit it off right away. so they both went to these very posh schools, and hit it off right away. and humphrey bogart said, what are you doing tonight? i know my dad is the stage manager. he's putting down the tape. clipboards and all that stuff. you want to come to a party and get into a suit and mimi over? and that night was sinatra singing with judy garland and lauren bacall, and dad called up my mom in new york and woke her up and says, lenny, pack your bags. we are moving to l.a. and that is just what he did. >> you moved to l.a., your dad became one of the great chroniclers of crew trying, maybe the predecessor of all the true crime stuff going on right now writing for vanity fair. there was a 10th anniversary

party that your parents had for their 10th anniversary. a cavalcade of stars. just incredible, the people who were there. but your movement through the lives of your parents, your uncles, joe didion, things like that. how did you -- what kind of fever possessed you to sit down and write this? >> well -- >> and it's a fever, too. >> i could not stop writing it once it was going. i've been collecting stories over the years, that are about my family or about my descendent , about my great, great grandparents whose lives were also extraordinary. so i always recognize that my family was unusual. each one had a very different story. even their animals were eccentric when i was growing up. but i -- you know, we had this

life-changing moment in our family, which was the murder of my sister. and that was part of our story. when i started to write it, i didn't know that that would become such a part of it. but as i wrote chronologically, i was getting to that very dark chapter. i was laughing all along the way, telling each of my family members stories. but i just thought, you know, as a result of this, of this murder, there was a trial that had a disastrous outcome where the killer only did 3 1/2 years. i saw that my family, my parents in particular and my brother -- just incredible character. we all came together so strongly. and i had enough perspective to really look at that, that terrible chapter in our lives, how much we grow from it. how close we became. and what my mother -- she

started injustice for victims of homicide in california. they changed laws that protected the rights of the big room. they are now implemented in 23 other states. and she was in a wheelchair. she was awarded a medal by president bush. so i just had to tell their story. i want everybody to meet my family. >> griffin, humphrey bogart gets you to move to los angeles, sean connery rescues you from drowning. you could almost be forgiven for saying, i really want nothing to do with the show business lifestyle at all. did you find yourself having a kind of ambivalent relationship with the whole show business world? >> that was my original intent. you know, growing up, i didn't even want to be an actor. i wanted to get away from hollywood. and i found -- i was embarrassed to be from a town called

beverly hills. you know, where the beverly hillbillies word. i always thought that was kind of just billy. i wanted to move to new york. not to be in television or movies, but to be in theater. it didn't turn out that way, but my own arc was, you know, to kind of get away from all of that socializing in hollywood, the importance of celebrity. but in the distance, i found myself looking back. my father collected these scrapbooks with all these names that were so important with all these famous people in them. he would handwrite to each person was. i had enough distance to look at the scrapbooks and go, this is amazing. this is an incredible document about hollywood in the 60s, from 1959 to 1967. and now i fully embrace it. and i wrote a book about it. >> you sure did.

>> the new book, the friday afternoon club. a family memoir is on sale right now. griffin dunne, thank you for sharing your family with us and thank you for writing the book. >> my pleasure. coming up, one of our next guest argues that there are republicans who could have ended donald trump's political career, but chose not to. the atlantics jeffrey goldberg will join us with what he calls a study in senate cowardice. morning joe will be right back.

good evening, everyone. 9:00 p.m. in new york. sitting in on the special edition of alex wagner. we heard from the president of the united states and is first extended on air interview since last week's debate. 22 uninterrupted minutes. president joe biden standing firm despite concerns among those in his party that he is staying in this race, that he is the man that can defeat donald trump in november. in an exclusive interview with george stephanopoulos, president biden was asked about his fitness to serve. >> recollections about the future not the past. they are about tomorrow and not yesterday in the question on many minds right now is, can you serve effectively for the next four years? >> george. i'm the guy that put nato together. the future. i'm the guy that shut down. no one thought it could happen. i'm the guy that put together the south pacific initiative. i'm the guy that got 50 nations

-- i'm the guy that got the japanese to expand their budget. i mean, for example, when i decided -- we invented the chip. the little computer chip. it's in everything from cell phones to weapons and so we had 40% and i were down to virtually nothing. against the advice of everyone i fly to south korea and convince them to invest in the united states. billions of dollars. now we have tens of billions of dollars invested in the united states making us back in a position where we will own that industry again. >> addressing his poor performance at the debate, biden said he had a cold and it was a bad night. >> i guess the question, the problem is for a lot of americans watching is you said going back to 2020, watch me, two people who are concerned about your age. 50 million americans watch that

debate. it seemed to confirm fears they already had. >> well, look, after that debate i did 10 major events in a row including one at 2:00 in the morning after that debate. i did events in north carolina. i did events in georgia. events like this today. large crowds. overwhelming response. no slipping. and, so, i just had a bad night. i don't know why. >> hadn't reiterated that nothing will convince him to step down from the race unless the lord almighty comes down. at one point george stephanopoulos asked him to reflect. >> are you sure you're being honest with yourself when you say you have the mental and physical capacity to serve another four years? >> the last thing i want to do is not be able to meet that. i think as some senior

economist and senior foreign policy specialist that if i stop now i go down in history as a successful president. no one but i could get done what we got done. >> but are you being honest with yourself, as well, about your ability to defeat donald trump right now? >> yes. yes. yes. yes. >> we will hear more from president biden as he continues to campaign next week when he is expected to hold a solo news conference during a nato summit in washington. joining us now is our senior political reporter and our white house correspondent, who was with the president in wisconsin ahead of the abc interview, and the white house reporter from the washington post. thank you to all of you for joining us. mike, you have, literally, known joe biden the longest.

you have traveled with him for a long time. there is no question regardless of how he answers george stephanopoulos, we are all older than we were seven years ago, 10 years ago, 15 years ago. what is your sense of how he responded and what is the biden world sense of how he performed tonight? >> the view of the campaign tonight is when you take tonight's interview, in which they believe he took every tough question that george stephanopoulos could muster, and combine that with the rally i was covering as wisconsin this afternoon, you see a president who continues to energize and motivate a core group of supporters in that room , but also still has the values that got him into this office in the first place and is focused on the right things. the voters. and can still be donald trump. as i'm looking at my phone every minute since this interview was over, it's not clear to me that the audience he needed to reach and convince tonight was satisfied. a lot of democrats who have been talking to throughout the past week feel like it's been maybe two

steps forward but three steps back. maybe this interview it would've been more effective had he did it in combination with that rally last week in north carolina the day after the debate, rather than something that builds over time . took on the super bowl-type level of importance by the buildup to this tonight. and so, watching president biden there, i see the person i've been covering for over 16 years now. somebody who is very proud. proud of his record. he thinks he's done more in four years as president than any president before him. he thinks he still can and will be donald trump. the audience that needs to be convinced is in his party and i think everyone watching tonight will take away, maybe they thought he held his own, but the debate to permit last thursday, we can't overstate what a seismic moment that was shaking the confidence of democrats and will take more than one rally and one interview to reassure democrats the stakes for every appearance going forward are so high that

i think democrats will continue to walk on egg shells until this is resolved. >> you had an interesting article in which you interviewed a lot of people about joe biden and the changes to him. and you make an interesting point, and this is why i was asking mike about this. those who do not interact with biden regularly, like democratic donors and foreign leaders are often the ones who noticed the change most acutely. senior aide to interact with biden regularly said they have not noticed stark changes. and that's pretty logical, right? i think we can all think about that in our own lives. if you don't see one for a year or two you will notice they gained or lost weight or look older or seen younger. the person around biden encouraging him to stick with this our family, friends and people who work with him every day. >> i think that's exactly

right. my colleagues today had a story about how senator mark warner, who was the head of the senate intelligence committee, or chairs the senate intelligence committee, is working to convene a group of senators to try to convince president biden to exit the race. and i think this is important because senator warner is seen as a serious censure. he has a good relationship with the president. he has been critical at times of the administration, but people have said his family and close aides are not likely to tell him to race and if anyone is going to ultimately prevail upon him, it doesn't mean they will, it would be senators given that he served in the senate for 36 years. and in this article we did about the president pop is aging seeming to accelerate in the last months, they mostly pointed to physical traits a stiffer gate, which the president has acknowledged in recent days. he moves around slower. but they also mentioned more frequent lapses like briefly losing his train of thought before getting back on track or seeming less lucid.

one of the most striking anecdotes we got from that story is that leaders at the g7 who typically only save the president once a year or every few months if they come to washington for a bilateral meeting, or struck by how much older he seemed when they saw him and came away with the impression of wondering that he seemed able to do the job now but they cannot fathom how he could do it for four years from now. i think that's the question a lot of voters are grappling with when they see him. he gives speeches. he was energetic at the rally and cognizant today, but the physical appearance, in many ways, bears on voter impressions on whether he can continue to do the job for another term. >> one of the interesting things from your reporting is that while joe biden was clear -- george stephanopoulos must've asked him a version of this a dozen times about will you consider stepping out? would you step out? and he said not unless the lord almighty comes down himself .

your reporting is otherwise. that he is torn between this idea of staying in the end what happens if the wave of people calling for him to step aside gets substantially larger. >> that's right. a big part of the goal here for president biden was to assure the jittery and anxious democrats that he's up for this. the debate performance last week was an aberration and not the norm. there are a lot of democrats who were skeptical over the last 30 or 40 minutes talking to democratic lawmakers and officials who watch the debate, i don't think he has convinced them that this was not the disastrous performance they witnessed last thursday. it's clear that he wasn't quite as incoherent. he was able to put his thoughts together. he did this thing that biden often does where he trails off into a tangent and then he catches himself and says, anyway, and pivots back. people who follow biden a family with that. but there are several things that stuck out to democratic sources i've talked to pick the

first as one lawmaker texted me saying biden still looks shaky even under controlled conditions. that last response is the one that is gotten democrats most nervous he was asked, what happens if you lose the two donald trump and biden said something along the lines of i believe i'm the best person to do this and if i give it my all and do my best, then that's what it's about. when democratic official texted they were sick to the stomach hearing that and said this is not youth sports biden said this is about the survival of democracy and the fate of the republic on the line and here is saying all i can do is do my best. and there is an element of the nile here that is also sticking with some democrats about the state of the race. we know that joe biden consistently feels underestimated and he has legitimate beef in that regard but when it comes to general election polls, the 2020 polls showed him crushing donald trump and he narrowly beat donald trump pick this time he has been losing and he said the pollsters i talked to say i'm not losing.

the question democrats will ask themselves is is he taking a clear eyed view of where he is in this race, and is he going to give them something to try to right the ship, turn things around because at this moment i don't think democratic officials heard what they wanted to hear, a lot of them at least, which is the president who knows he needs to do something big to turn this around. >> jittery democrats and there are a bunch of people for whom this discussion seems very important and some of them are jittery democrats and some of the chattering class and some of the punditry. and some of them -- joe biden talked about it in one of his responses when george stephanopoulos seemed to asking, do you understand what the pressure is coming from? and he said, the media are going to understand this from your perspective. how should this conversation be going on and where should it be going on?

i don't buy the argument that it shouldn't be happening at all. >> i agree. >> but was the way to do this? your concern is democrats have a tendency to eat their own. >> that's true. at every level. some of it is campaign craft. if your party is in power and you're going through moments like this where your president needs you, you know, what do you do in that moment? so, you could say something like, you come on tv, or wherever and say, you know what? i've been a great president the last four years. he's entitled to make his own decision and he will make that decision. now behind the scenes you recognize that you have some real issues you have to deal with. there is a time crush. you don't have that much time to the convention or the general election. any party that replaces him has to raise money and go out there introduce themselves to voters all the stuff needs to happen so there's a whole lot that needs to happen behind the scenes that, i think, one would be concerned is being brought to the public. and that in and of itself does not necessarily

so confidence in the apparatus. so the campaign craft is really important here. but from a media standpoint, i do think it's important to acknowledge what voters are thinking and how they're feeling. but also be able to not create an equivalency between what joe biden -- what were talking about with respect to joe biden and everything that donald trump has said that's been a lie every time he opens his mouth pick your questions -- >> there's will damage that this is what we have been talking about for eight days because the supreme court is in a ridiculous thing and donald trump is carrying on with project 2025 by trying -- >> correct. and it's a legitimate -- it's legitimate to want to hear more from joe biden in every instance, but especially now. but what i want us to be careful about is if we don't hear from joe biden in these unscripted moments as much as we may want, if we agreed that

he generally tells the truth in those moments, let's also say that that is far better than the number of times donald trump talks but lies in the times he opens his mouth. how many lies is he put into that one truth? and if we can't play that kind of game, the equivalency, even if we want joe biden to actually be able to speak more what is he saying? can we believe in what he is saying and has he back that up? >> let me ask you that. joe biden, when talking about his successes. economic successes in the price of drugs, but he really leaned into anna present gets credit for this during their time -- his international stuff. the south pacific. the stuff with china. the 50 countries he got together in ukraine. holding pollutants fee to the fire in the expansion of nato. and he even said and a middle east peace deal and then quickly said that i hope will

come to fruition because we are discussing the fact that that may actually come. those world leaders who have recognized or said they recognize some decline in joe biden, do they offset that with the idea that joe biden has been, in terms of foreign policy and domestic policy, a fairly successful president? >> they definitely recognize that he in many ways is a foreign policy president. he was the chair of the senate foreign relations committee and came into office with a lot of foreign policy experience i spoke with a number of senior white house aides for this article who said while he was at the g7 that other leaders were looking to him for leadership on issues ranging from russia's invasion of ukraine to china to a number of global issues. of course he came into office saying he want to strengthen alliances. he has overseen the addition of countries to nato, which is not a small feat.

i think global leaders to recognize this. but one of the important things to note is they have such heightened anxiety about the prospect of a second trump term here and i talked to a number of experts and people who have spoken with these leaders who said, european capitals especially have long been planning for the potential of the trump presidency try to map out he would be in the trumpet ministration and who they would deal with, different ways to talk about increased spending among countries and things that would appeal to trump. and after the presidential debate performance, those efforts took on a heightened urgency because it made the prospect of trump coming into office more real. i think while they may note that biden still seems mentally sharp and he has let on these issues, they are very concerned about his ability to be trump and what that would mean if trump were to assume office and see what we saw in the first term, or even worse than before, where he wants to pull the u.s. back from global alliances and prep up long- standing norms? >> thank you.

we appreciate all of you joining us. basil will stick with me. one of campaign defenders, senator john fetterman's reaction to the interview and the news that some senate democrats are huddling to figure out a way forward. a special coverage will continue after a short break. for twice as long as pepcid. get all-day and all-night heartburn acid prevention with just one pill a day. choose acid prevention. choose nexium. we're trying to save the planet with nuggets. choose acid prevention. because we need the planet. and we also need nuggets. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat.

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we are back was special coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview since thursday's debate. the president addressing calls for him to step aside from the race amid concerns over his ability to win re-election. joining our conversation as the democratic senator john fetterman of pennsylvania. good to see you again. it's been a long time since we spoke and so thank you for

being with us tonight? payment yet. it's always a pleasure. nice to see you again. >> you have a remarkable and unique perspective on this as somebody who struggled through some debate performances, was actually discussed about not being well enough to continue, and then won an election. i want to hear your take on everything that's gone on the last nine days with joe biden including tonight's interview. >> you know. absolutely. and thank you for bringing that up because i've been talking about this. i've been exactly where he is, as well. of course he's on a much bigger stage but everybody was convinced that we were done. look at what he's done. he is unfit and set all kinds of terrible kinds of terms and everything like that. and now, right now, i'd like to remind everybody that all the polls, fetterman is going to lose, and were going to lose the senate throughout all of this, and the like to point out that two days ago dr. oz is tweeting about constipation on x and i'm

sitting here now as a senator talking about why joe biden is going to be our guy. >> and it wasn't like you were the subject of some big wave that got you elect it. so what do you do in an instance like this? if you are joe biden and everyone is giving joe biden advice tonight. the whole country is giving by advice. get in or stay out. >> it wasn't a big wave. and we actually did carry that. but i also say that all the experts are saying that the democrats were going to get destroyed in that '22 cycle here and everybody said you can't be seen with joe biden. he wasn't popular and recycled. i was proud to campaign with him and i did that. he stuck by me and i'm sticking by him right now through this too. he's been a great president. i like to remind everybody watching right now, if it wasn't for joe biden, trump would be sitting in the white

house right now and he would be running for his third term right now. so we owe him a lot and we certainly owe him enough time to really make his case to those people after his debate that may have some concerns? >> let's talk about that a bit and i think there are a lot of people concerned about what you just said. that donald trump is the other option at the moment. now joe biden may make a different decision. but there is a strange world that we are on in which we are discussing all of this about joe biden given his record as president when the other guy is actually involved in a conspiracy to dismantle democracy. he had some kind of weird posted in which he said he's never read this project 2025 thing but he disagrees with it even though he's never read it. this is very serious. if donald trump becomes president of the united states again, it's going to be a different world. >> yeah. well, of course it's serious my money is on the guy that kicked his -- in 2020 and i want to be clear that it's going to be close. it's always going to be

close. it was close in 2016 and close in 2020 and in 2024 it will be there too. donald trump is back here. and what do democrats do? we panic after a bad debate and after 34 convictions, felonies, the republican show up and dress like him and go all in on trump. maybe we could learn something here and say stand by our president through this. and after 50 years and almost four years as a great president, i think he is entitled to have his support to make his case after a debate that we can all agree was rough. but i know what that's like. i am not the sum total of a bad debate and certainly the president isn't either. >> i think there may be four elected democrats calling for the president to step aside but there's talk tonight of movement being led by senator warner of virginia. >> who was that? who? >> i take it you have not been

involved in the conversation or been invited to it? >> yeah. like -- at any rate. if you want to betray the president like that, you are entitled to your opinion. but enjoy your three minutes of fame. but otherwise i'm going to stand with the president and i want to remind you that this would be donald trump's running for his third term if it wasn't for joe biden taking him out in 2020? payment let me ask you this dust was standing by the president or admonition that democrats could take a lesson from republicans what does that mean that you believe that joe biden should stay in the race, or your point is you stand by him and that is your decision? >> well of course i'm staying by him because he's been a great, he is a great president, as well. like i said. after 50 years in public service and taking out trump and gotten us through a pandemic, he has successfully managed two foreign wards with ukraine and israel, and to

deliver the kinds of aid for taiwan against china throughout all of this, and now our economy is the world and be. over 200,000 new jobs just today that was announced. and everyone, all these experts, were saying we will have a recession and we will crater, and were actually kicking it then. he must be doing something right. after no one debate people are willing to throw them away? i refuse to accept that and i'm going to push back against that in the strongest terms? >> the pushback involves your colleagues, elected officials and the party, people calling for him to step out. a lot of people in the media. what about the public? what about the public who saw that debate last week and worry about it, particularly 81 million people who voted for joe biden in the last election. about 80 million people did not vote -- registered voters not

motivated enough to vote last time around. those of the people that democrats need to win this next election, right? at least some of them. >> well, we need to we in -- win and we need to support joe biden. i went to address all the other crazy stuff that was happening even before this debate. we will abandon, were going to walk away or i'm going to be uncommitted. congratulations. if you're panicking after a debate, you are willing to dig around with all of that before that because we need all in on this. and if you think you're going to send a message as a democrat voting for someone else or throwing away your vote, guess what? the message in 2000 was tanking gore and then two terms of bush. if you thought you would be clever and send a message in 2016 and -- earbud away for someone like stein?

congratulations. that got us trump. if you want to do this in 2024, if you want to play with that kind of a fire, you really have to own that kind of a burden. democrats and those kind of people concerned by having a second term of trump all have to agree he may not have to be our dream candidate, although i think he's been a great president when you consider what the alternative is, just lean in and deliver a second term for joe biden. >> senator, good to talk to you, as always. one of these days you will get comfortable with me and come out of your shell and tell me what you really think. nice to see you again. >> [ laughter ]. hey, all right. thanks. it's always a pleasure. >> senator john fetterman a pennsylvania. we will track reaction to president biden highly anticipated interview since that debate that shook up a 2024 race. our coverage continues right here on msnbc. we will be right back. but do you have to wedge it into everything?

what? i don't do that. this reminds me of my bike. the wolf was about the size of my new motorcycle. have you seen it, by the way? happy birthday, grandma! really? look how the brushstrokes follow the line of the gas tank. -hey! -hey! brought my plus-one. jamie?

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the decision recently made by the supreme court on immunity , you know, the next president of the united states, it's not just about whether he or she knows what they're doing, it's not about a conglomerate of people making decisions, it's about the character of the president. the character of the president is going to determine whether or not this constitution is employed in the right way. >> we are back with her special

coverage of president biden's first sitdown interview since last week's debate led to a course of questions over whether he should ask the presidential race. the president sought to reassure voters he is the person who can defeat donald trump in november. let's bring into the conversation the washington post opinion writer and msnbc political analyst jennifer rubin and tom nichols, basil is staying with us. tom and jennifer, i've been reading everything you published in the last week and despite the fact you don't have the same position on this, i think you would both agree and i will start with you tom, that the character is the issue to both think that we should think different things about whether joe biden should stay in the race but tom, you make clear, that character is the issue and everything needs to be done to ensure that donald trump is not the next president of the united states. >> yes. i think a lot of this debate has gotten off the rails with people not falling into an argument that because of, i think, legitimate concerns about whether joe biden can get through this campaign, i think

he can do the job, but i think the campaign is different winning a campaign is different than doing the job, that somehow that means we are really having a debate about whether joe biden is better than donald trump. there is no question about it. joe biden is vastly better than donald trump. i've written repeatedly i think he has a remarkable first-term record, in fact. and the notion that somehow because of a debate , you know, that we are back to square one in sync we really don't know anything about either of these guys we have to start all over again. that's not what's happening here and i think the people that are doing that, i don't think jennifer is doing that, i think there are a lot of folks who don't want to talk about this, are purposely pushing into that because that's an entirely different subject. >> jennifer rubin, how do you think they should play out at this point? >> well, what has been tried has not worked. put it that way.

one interview is, obviously, not going to satisfy many, many people. also, democrats who have gone to him or have had questions or have spoken on background, have not been nearly explicit enough because he has not heard from them in one uniform voice this is not going to work. if nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, hakeem jeffries, some of his closest and dearest colleagues from delaware were absolutely flat out honest with him and said this to his face, he, perhaps, would not be living in a world in which he thinks everything is fine. now, i totally agree with tom on two things. one, it's not a question of who is better. frankly, if joe biden were in a coma i would vote for him because the name of the game here, and it's not a game, is keeping someone is committed to destroying the constitution,

out of office. and the second is that i think there has to be a limited period of time. democrats have to be clear. jim clyburn said you have to get out there and do town halls and satisfy people. give him a time limit. set some reasonable expectations, and then if he doesn't and they still feel the polls are heading in the wrong direction, then this is becoming a desperate situation then they have to either publicly or forcefully explicitly to his face tell him some hard news and i can't think of anyone better, if it comes to that, then nancy pelosi. >> tom, you know, one of the things you wrote about in a don't think he used the term, but he basically said even a less fit than you think he is joe biden would be a better president and part of that is because it takes a village to be a proper president. donald trump does not express that donald trump says i alone can fix it and he smarter than everyone in the room and so you worry that donald trump as president is a destructive force. that said, you are not really questioning, as i read your

writing on this, not really questioning joe biden's ability to be president and to be a good president in a second term. you are simply worried about his ability to win the presidency at this point. >> yes. and thank you for being clear about it because, of course, to even raise that question people then think that you are -- that joe biden is not a good president and is not fit and is not capable. my only concern is who can get to 271 electoral votes and defeat donald trump, which i think, makes me not a democrat but part of a pro-democracy coalition that understands that donald trump is a mentally disturbed would be autocrat, who wants to destroy the constitutional structure of the united states. if joe biden can do that, great. but i think in the past few days president biden's behavior, including tonight into to view,

i'm sorry to say, raises the question of are you really up to this fight? can you actually do this and prevent this from happening? and i don't think he has answered that question. and i know jen and i were supposed to disagree but i agree with her completely. there has to be a time beyond which people say, okay, it's not going to happen and, again, if he can do it, terrific. i have written, like i said, many times that i think joe biden has done a great job. but it can't go on forever. and i think we all knew after the debate the idea of just limping along and pretending all the stuff did not happen was not an option in the real world of politics. >> jen, clearly, there is an amount of time and i don't know what that is but unfortunately it's july now and it's not august or september, but was this a conversation that should've been had earlier, and if not, why not? >> well, we can say it should have. and i think it actually was to some degree.

but the problem was when you have an incumbent president who is doing well, we have a very strong economy, as people like stu stevens have pointed out, presidents with these kinds of records don't lose elections that there was no way he was going to, at that stage when he had not had this disastrous performance, decide that i'm not going to run people did raise the issue but no one in the democratic party, and i think this is probably wise, one to actually primary him. because when incumbent presidents get primary, they generally lose. see jimmy carter. i think it would've been nice to have had this and to have been able to convince him and to be certain of the alternative, but we are where we are. and i would just add two things very briefly. wanda is, i think the period of time we have has at least disabused people of the notion that if he does step away,

we're simply going to spend the dial and pick some somewhat unknown, white governor from the middle of the country. that is not happening. the choice will be, do we have a presidential candidate that can win in the person of joe biden or in the person of kamala harris? and to the extent to which the conversation has sort of been had and people in the democratic party are coming to the conclusion, yes, it's going to be her. and by the way, she has good skills because no one has been more effective on abortion and no one is quite going to get under his skin like kamala harris. at least that is a positive development. >> thank you for both of you for your thoughtful approach to all of this. jennifer rubin and tom nichols. basil is staying with me. he's kind of like my bodyguard today. next, where the race goes from here. our special coverage continues after a very short break.

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president biden's interview comes at a pivotal time for the 2024 election. according to nbc news reporting the next week of events for biden is considered to be absolutely critical. two biden aides and one former official with knowledge of the discussions told nbc news before friday's interview pick the president is aware that he needs to perform well in public appearances over the next few days, and that anything short of that could submit to public

opinion that he should leave the race, according to sources. joining basil and me at the table is the nbc news 2024 campaign embed, who has worked with me for a long time but it's the first time we've spoken in your context as an embed. and i'm very curious what your making of all of this, particularly today. joe biden had a very strong rally performance, and then he had a performance in an interview in which the jury is still out. >> one thing i have been doing immediately after the debate is talking to voters in battleground states and i can tell you there are a coalition of core joe biden fans that acknowledge he underperformed at that debate, but still plan to stand behind him. i had voters who told me it was a disaster and sad and i feel anxious come up but this isn't about voting for joe biden as much as voting against donald trump. they are standing behind him and i texted a few after this interview and the answer i was getting was they want to see more of this. not sure it

completely assuaged all concerned that people may have over joe biden's age, but at least him making this attempt at doing these interviews and ramping up the campaign, going to more states, making himself more accessible, that will help his cause. >> this is interesting because after seven years of this nonsense. four years of donald trump, three years of joe biden with donald trump hanging around in the background, you would think that there is nobody left in america who could possibly think that debate performance is going to change your vote to the other guy. and yet we're here. >> it may not vote -- change her vote to proactively but for donald trump but it may slow their enthusiasm which is essentially about for donald trump. and so, that is the chief concern. does this tamp down some enthusiasm for joe biden, even if you're really want to defeat donald trump? but if we zoom out a little bit there are three things i think democrats would find. one, more senator john fetterman.

that kind of defense of the president, i think, is sorely needed by the president in this particular moment. i also think what jennifer and tom talked about is going to be critical. this time period is very important. even though we could be somewhat dismissive of polls from time to time, polls to signal to donors were to give their money and where to push their money so the polling is going to be important. where the donors come out on all of this is important. and their ability to say to joe biden, we want you to make a decision but if you're going to do it we need to go now one way or another because we need to get behind the next. that timing is critical. and third, something we haven't really touched on in terms of the project 2025, which i want to raise, is what to rush eb henson did the other day. the fact that a person who clearly cares deeply about the issues talked about on the stage where you would not necessarily expected in the last couple of days my timeline

is for the project 2025 that, i think, is one of the tactics the democrats have is to get folks like that to start getting people who may not be at the forefront of talking about the issues to do so. >> donald trump today posted that is not involved in project 2025. the whole thing is designed for him ahead of the heritage foundation and is given an interview on this network to my colleagues to say this is what's going to happen. >> and i think the last part is the way you get folks engaged not just for joe biden but everything joe biden stands for. >> so tell me, are voters as jittery and nervous as the chattering classes about this? they may have agreed the debate performance was terrible. tell me how does that manifest for them? >> honestly, the voters i've spoken to, not much has changed for them since november in the sense that they are all very pragmatic. it hasn't always been that they are super enthusiastic to go out and vote for joe biden

again. there've been concerns over his agent since i started this job. but the real question when i speak to them is who is the better alternative? a lot of voters i speak to even after the debate performance, even though they acknowledge that biden may not be at its best, still feel that he may be the best option democrats have. and there is also a sense of a reality check from voters that may be some in the media class or pundits may not grasp the way these voters do and at this stage in the race, the likelihood of nominating someone else and having them take on the challenge of taking on trump, there is fear that won't result in any sort of tangible change that will help democrats. so in my experience so far, voters i speak to, it's a matter of making sure the core constituencies are engaged and ready to go out and as moderate independent voters who truly have not been tuned in that long or at least presented to two options, which is something that biden campaign has gone hard on presenting the contrast of it's not just by -- joe biden but a matter of voting

for donald trump and think about project 2012 and the supreme court and wrapping it into the message as well. >> you take anything changed tonight? >> i don't think much change tonight but one night was never going to do it. you need to have more like that. i go back to this. more john fetterman. when the independent start paying attention you want to hear more like him defending joe biden and the democrats as a road map for the future. >> i appreciate your analysis. you spent a lot of time with me today so i appreciate that. it's great to see you in this role that you are in. all the roles you take on for us to always execute with aplomb so thank you for all that you're doing. >> thank you for being with us for a special report tonight. i will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 from her reaction to president biden's interview tonight and the newest and installment of the book club with tim o'brien. for now, stay with msnbc throughout the evening. our coverage continues right

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good morning. it is saturday, july 6.