on this new hour of ayman, the attack on democracy known as project 2025 and why you should not believe trumps claim he has nothing to do with it. plus, new movements in trumps classified documents case. the judge responding to efforts to toss it out. and trump, biden, or us, the american people. i am ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. democrats are not the only ones trying to manage a crisis this week. trump allies are in complete panic mode over the public's growing awareness of project

2025. a 900 page, authoritarian second trump term blueprint to institutionalize trumpism that would roll back lgbtq rights, detain undocumented migrants and put them in camps and staff government institutions with loyalist's. now that the public is becoming aware of this nightmare that donald trump is claiming ignorance about, posting on his failed social media, quote, i know nothing about project 2025. i have no idea who is behind it. i disagree with some of the things they are saying and some of the things they are saying are abysmal. anything they do, i wish them luck, but i have nothing to do with them. chatter surrounding project 20/25 increased this week when the architect of project 2025 went on tv and said this. >> the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. >> a bloodless revolution.

that was kevin roberts, president of the right wing think take, the heritage foundation. trump should know them both. this is the same roberts that shook hands with trump when he spoke at a conference in 2022. he was also a keynote speaker for the presidents club meeting where he spoke lovingly about the organization. there is no surprise that someone like trump would admire the heritage foundation. it has been a massive force in shaping republican policy and administrations for decades. in the 80s that helped shape and advance the reagan doctrine, the idea that america should support insurgents. reagan would later say the heritage foundation was a vital force during his presidency. the organization also laid much of the groundwork for the george h.w. bush administration including operation desert storm. in january, 2003 they called for dismantling saddam hussein's regime.

george w. bush would follow that advice to months later with the invasion of iraq. the idea that trump does not know what the heritage foundation is and that it's people are responsible for mapping out policies for his administration is laughable. especially when several former white house officials like ben carson, peter navarro, are all involved with the organization. the director of project 2025, paul dan's, also worked as a senior aide. even top trump allies like his national press secretary and stephen miller, his former senior advisor, both appeared in a heritage video promoting project 2025. whether trump likes it or not, this authoritarian blueprint for america has been mainstreamed within the gop and you would think democrats would be doing everything in their power to expose it. so where have they been? a little slow to the game. hours before biden's debate

this week, his campaign launched a website targeting project 2025, but biden did not mention it at all during the debate, nor has he mentioned it at the other two rallies he held since then, including last night's interview with george stephanopoulos. it wasn't until today that biden put out a statement slamming project 2025, saying it should scare every american. meanwhile vice president kamala harris, chuck schumer and house minority leader hakeem jeffries have failed to sound the alarm. trump has done the democrats job for them. he thought he was doing himself a favor by distancing himself from project 2025, but he has only succeeded in drawing more attention to the dystopian nightmare that the gop has planned for our country. people are now starting to notice and that is why trump and the gop are panicking and they have no one to blame but themselves. we have an all-star panel to break this down.

joining me now is jewel walsh, host of the white flag with jewel walsh podcast. great to have you with us. walk us back for a moment. do you really buy that project 2025 is too extreme for donald trump or that he is trying to have his cake and eat it too by distancing himself from it while all the while knowing he will fully embrace it at every turn? >> good to be with you and my friend, tom. three things. every time trump opens his mouth, he lies, so it is not a surprise that he says i've never heard of project 2025. in his defense, ayman, he may not understand it because he really doesn't understand much. most importantly for america, project 2025 represents where my former political party is

right now, plain and simple. it is a blueprint for where the republican party is. it is a blueprint for a party that has given up on democracy and has embraced authoritarianism and, as you rightly pointed out at the top, democrats ought to be all over this. >> it seems, tom, there is no way -- first of all we can all agree there's no way donald trump red 900 pages. i don't think he even read the executive summary of project 2025. we know this guy lies a lot, but do you think he shot himself in the foot by bringing more attention to it by trying to distance himself from it? >> you know, i doubt it, because his followers forgive him anything. you know, part of the reason that heritage is doing this is because they want the attention. they want to be thought of as the pointy end of the spear in

this new conservative vanguard. in fairness to the old heritage that joe and i knew many years ago, they were policy wonks. they were right wing policy wonks. now heritage is trying to come across as we are rambo with phds now. so i think some of that is they are happy to have that attention and if they think trump has to distance himself a bit from some of the craziest stuff in there. he probably has no idea what is in it. then they are probably okay with that. but i think there is a danger for them that the more people that know about project 2025 beyond these sort of kooky statements, the more people will say, is this really what we are in for? because there is really a lot of stuff that would scare ordinary, decent americans. >> do you think, tom, that trump is just a useful vessel

for project 2025? i think project 2025 and the heritage foundation, because they have a long history, they know how to work the system. they know how to get proposals in front of lawmakers, in front of politicians. for them they are looking at someone like donald trump maney mainly as a useful idiot and saying he is our vessel to implement this sweeping revolution, as kevin roberts called it, a bloodless revolution if the left allows it. >> i think donald trump is an empty vessel. he is a big shark that a lot of policymakers will try to stick to as he swims to the white house. this is easy to do because trump is running for one reason and one reason only. revenge and to stay out of jail. donald trump has never cared about policy. he doesn't understand it. he doesn't really commit to it.

he will do whatever it takes to get into the white house and make it to slide into homebase safe. a lot of people are going to try to hitch a ride on that and use him as a vessel for a lot of crazy ideas that he will sign off on because he could not care less and once he is in the white house's goal has been accomplished. >> go ahead, joe. >> one quick point. i agree with everything tom said, but look, we are talking about the heritage foundation. this is the republican party. the heritage foundation is just reflecting where the base of the party is and the base has embraced authoritarianism. project 2025 is a roadmap to put an authoritarian dictator, a king, in the white house. of trump understands anything about it, he understands because trump loves dictators. he loves authoritarians. this is a blueprint for making

the president of the united states and authoritarian. trump would love that and republican voters want that. >> my issue with that is do you think republican voters actually know they will get a dictator, and authoritarian? i would argue some of them are asleep at the wheel. they may elect trump for other reasons. i'm talking about his base, not the rest of us who live on earth 1, who know that he is an authoritarian and waiting and that things like project 2025 will pave the way to taking our country down this road. i'm not sure most republican voters, not republican elite or powerbrokers or politicians, but the voters. do you feel that republican voters want authoritarianism? >> yes, at a policy level they may have a difficult time of articulating that, but they have in america they believe in.

they want in america they want back. when america was more white, when america was more christian. they have given up on the democratic process. this is what they tell me every day. so they want a strongman to get them back that america that they believe in. >> fairpoint. tom, let's talk about the lack of messaging from democrats. as i mentioned it has not been essential talking point for some of the key leaders for the white house or the administration. i went through the list of names we have not heard from. it was only today that president biden released a statement. no mention in the debate for interviews since. why not shouted from the rooftops when they first learned about it? why are they focusing on talking about past things trump says and the fact he is a liar? we all know that stuff. why not talk about the threat

trump is going to enable with project 2025? >> this will put me in a weird position because i will make a tiny defense of democratic messaging. i want to spring off of something joe brought up. to criticize project 2025 ends up sounding like you are arguing about detailed policy and people's eyes rolled back in their heads. it doesn't really help to go back and say, do you understand donald trump will create a schedule f of civil service employees? no one understands what that means. i will come back to be a critic of that messaging, to say that the heritage foundation has a plot to turn every government employee of any consequence into a personal appointee of donald trump. that means anybody you call in federal service of any significance is going to be one of donald trump's appointees or working for one of his

appointees. that is really dangerous. your government isn't going to work anymore. the federal government you count on to get things done are going to be a bunch of hacks who were appointed like back in the 1920s. but that is tricky messaging because you need to explain the actual impact of project 2025 without going into all the details. i've written about the military aspect of project 2025, which is terrifying and instead of saying they will do senior appointments, i've said many times, donald trump wants to purge the senior officer corps, for a bunch of generals will do what he wants him to do, period. that is an project 2025. >> frightening. >> it's terrifying, but it is tricky messaging because you don't want to sound like a boring policy wonk arguing over a 900 page paper. >> let's hope someone at the democratic party is watching

the show and cause you were advice, because at the end of the day you have to get the message out there one way or another otherwise you run the risk of voters going to the polls without realizing what's at stake. tom and joe, please stick around. have a lot more to discuss with you. up next, the new movement in trump's classified document case. his team again moved to get the case dismissed and judge aileen cannon, well, she is responding. ( ♪ ♪ ) start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended

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or escaped for donald trump? that is now a question thanks to the supreme court decision that he and all future presidents are immune from prosecution for official acts. trump's team has taken that ruling and ran with it. on friday they moved to get the classified documents case dismissed and today trump appointed district judge aileen cannon granted the request for a further briefing and delayed some deadlines. she afforded special counsel jack smith the right, but not the obligation, to file a submission on the use of classified information. at the same time she paused to upcoming deadlines for trump and his codefendants. a reply from trump's team is due july 21. danny cevallos, legal analyst and criminal defense attorney is with me now. i want to start with the response to what judge can then once again is doing, stalling the classified documents case. what you make of the update we got today?

>> it is consistent with what judge cannon has done so far. this is a judge that likes to consider all of the evidence, then reconsider it, then have a hearing on it and then a supplemental briefing on it. i see strategy with trump's team asking for things like a supplemental briefing, because this is a judge that indicated she is willing to add time to the case for the benefit of getting additional information to make her decision. the trump team sees that as a strategy so they make this motion. i think they have a good shot at getting a lot of the florida case thrown out. most folks have been focusing on the january 6 case, but given the supreme court decision of what kind of conduct falls in the sphere of official action and the presumption trump gets, yes a lot of these documents were in trump's possession after he was president, but how did he get them in the first place? he was president at the time and given that immunity, trump has a shot.

>> let me get this right. he stops being president and takes the documents to florida. he is told by the government, give the documents back. at that moment he does not give the documents back and that is where the problem begins. you are saying that could be an official act? how? >> as a defense attorney i would say winded the problem really begin? >> it began when he didn't give the documents back. we realize you've got classified documents in your possession. you no longer should have these documents in your possession. that is when the problem began. >> yes, but i am playing danny's advocate and the argument will be that the genesis of getting those documents was as the president. there are two main things a supreme court opinion does. number one it says you cannot prosecute the president for anything official, but it also says you cannot use as evidence those official acts against him. they have a two-pronged

argument. number one, trump may have declared documents to be personal while he was president and number two, these documents exist as evidence against him and something that the genesis of which was when he was president. these are not nonzero arguments. they may fail, but remember, trump, for things that are not necessarily constitutional presidential powers, he gets the presumption. he starts off ahead of the game. he is the heavy favorite in gambling terms. >> i'm going to say i'm not buying it, but judge aileen cannon has not proven to be a fair arbiter so far in my opinion. we focused a lot on the federal cases against trump. what about the case in georgia? how could the supreme court decision impact that, given that it is a state charge, not a federal one? >> it could in the sense that it grants the president immunity. there is a stronger case to

make against state prosecutions, though constitutionally it is a different mechanism. when it is the executive branch of the federal government trying to prosecute the president, you may have separation of powers issues, but this may fall in the supremacy clause. in their favor they have the argument that a lot of this conduct was state related and this was trump acting as an office seeker, not an officeholder, but there is a lot of overlap between the charges in fulton county, in state court, and the charges in federal court when it comes to election interference. you have some of the same facts that are alleged. if that is immune conduct in federal court, likely they will make the same argument that it is immune conduct in state court, in georgia. that is only one element. georgia has problems of its own, because that stays stalled because of a motion to dismiss the prosecutor.

trump can't get rid of the case with a pardon or the justice department, but the georgia case is on the ropes. >> let's talk about the hush money case and the delay in sentencing until september 18. what did you expect judge merchan to decide on how the immunity ruling impacts the verdict, now that that case has concluded, at least the trial part of it has concluded? >> this is how lawyers and everyone else studies the words in a judges order like they are some religious text and i would initially think that the judge would be inclined to say, look, a lot of this conduct seems clearly private. it's hard to make an argument that anything trump did involving a payoff to stormy daniels was presidential. but go back to the second prong of the supreme court opinion, which is not only is he immune for anything in the outer perimeter of presidential conduct, but things can't be used against him as evidence. that doesn't mean that all of

the meetings testified to, meetings in the white house, it does not necessarily mean that they are out, but they might be out. the other thing the court said is something in the public, you don't have the same concern. things like presidential tweets, i would expect those would be admissible, but the argument now isn't so much that paying off stormy daniels and reimbursing michael cohen was presidential. it is that the evidence for the testimony about what happened in the white house, that should never have been admitted. that is maybe the stronger argument for trump getting a new trial and getting his conviction overturned. it is so shocking to me because initially i think everyone's first thought is whatever this immunity decision is, the new york case had nothing to do with white house conduct. now they see if the new york case could possibly be in trouble, then all of the others could be, too. >> absolutely incredible. danny cevallos, thank you.

it's good to see you. next up, massive demonstrations in israel being lost in the fog of war. war. t. ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai and intel. ♪ to see hundreds of miles of tracks. ♪ [vroom] [train horn] [buzz] clearing the way, [whoosh] so you arrive exactly where you belong.

before the world's attention turned to the october 7 attack on israel and the devastating military campaign in the nine months that followed, another story was garnering global scrutiny. benjamin netanyahu had just won his unprecedented sixth term while on trial for corruption and he put together the most radical right wing government in the history of israel. his government proposed judicial reforms that would weaken the supreme court and put more power in the hands of the far right parliament. in the months that followed, hundreds of thousands gathered to oppose the plan. protesters saw the proposed changes to the judicial system as a threat to the judicial system and a possible pathway to dictatorship. it is important to understand

what the protests were not about. they were not about ending israel's more than half a century of occupation or undoing the system major civil rights group call apartheid. it was about stopping then yahoo and right-wing allies from consolidating power and avoiding accountability and the world to notice. week after week story spotlighted these protests and limited democracy may not survive. compare that to a little noticed rally in tel aviv on monday night. an event called the great peace conference filled an arena with israelis demanding an end to the war and peace with the palestinians. the rally was organized by 50 organizations and was the largest antiwar gathering since october 7 outside the protests. taking to the podium, palestinians who lost family members to airstrikes in gaza along with israelis who lost family members at the hands of hamas.

to be clear, these antiwar protest are the minority voice in israel. a poll found 73% of israelis believe their military operation in gaza has not gone far enough or been about right. that is 73% in support of what a united nations report is calling and extermination and what the international court of justice has caused -- has called a genocide. this piece rally does not represent the majority, but dissenters exist and they are growing and they are not getting as much attention as the forces calling for violence and destruction. we've reported on the drift happening in that country for years. it makes events like this peace conference in tel aviv all the more courageous, but is it a sign of hope and possibly a reemergence of a real israeli peace movement? when we come back, one of its leaders joins me.

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before the break i told you about a piece rally in tel aviv attended by thousands. it was the largest antiwar gathering since october 7 outside street protests. one of the key organizers, his parents were killed during the hamas attack in southern israel. i spoke to him earlier. thank you so much for joining us this evening. you know, since october 7, right after october 7, you have

been asking that the death of your parents not be used to justify the deaths of palestinians. that was nine months ago and this has now been by far the longest military campaign in israel's history. did you first see this lasting so long? >> unfortunately, first, i am really happy and it is great to be with you on your show. unfortunately i did. i say to everyone that the u.s. administration, that they must do everything within their power to stop the war. that this is a war of revenge. that we only make israel weaker and weaker, strategically and with security measures and internationally. unfortunately i was right and it is time to make a stop of

this war for revenge. it is time to stop it. >> i want to talk about some of the differences we are seeing in israel now before october 7, compared to what is happening with these protests. what do you see as the major differences between the anti- judicial reform protest that took place throughout 2023 and were massive and getting a lot of international media coverage and these protests you are helping organize now. what is the difference between them and how much overlap is there when it comes to the supporters? >> the difference before and doctor -- and after october 7. it should be should he resign or not another question is when, when should netanyahu resign, before the end of the war were immediately? to be honest with you, i am not protesting anymore.

i am just advocating what should be done and what should be done is a hostage deal. it is a complete stop of the war and starting a diplomatic solution between israel and palestine and this is exactly what we have done on july 1 in the biggest arena, within tel aviv. the biggest piece rally in israel in the last 10, maybe 20 years and more than 6000 israelis and palestinians, with tens of thousands of international viewers. we demanded exactly those three things. to stop the war, a deal, and to start the peace process. >> speaking of stopping the war, i am sure you know as well

that the polling shows large majority of israelis are supportive of the war in gaza or they even wanted to go further than what you are seeing right now. what do you make of that or how do you explain that? are we focusing too much on the protests? are you a minority when you see that the majority still want the war to continue? >> leaders should not act according to polls. leaders should make policy. israel has no leaders. this is what they are doing and the reason why israel is getting weaker and weaker. our coalition of more than 50 civil society organizations decided that the discourse must be changed. a better future must be on the table and this is exactly what we are doing.

because our leaders are too weak. i would say too cowardly to offer a better future and we are offering a better future based on the history of israel. in every country, like egypt and jordan, that we were able to achieve a peace accord. we were able to achieve security and safety and security and safety, this is what is most important to israelis. we are traumatized. we are in fear. we have no direction and we must give the people of israel and palestine a new direction and a new hope. because our leaders are not doing it, we, the civil society, we decided to start a people process that will take us to a better future and we will make peace between israelis and palestinians. >> let me ask you about the peace movement in israel and

where it stands today. as you know as an israeli and someone like myself who has been to israel and spent years there, the peace movement has gotten smaller and smaller as israel has shipped did more to the right and this past week we saw the israeli government basically approve the largest seizure of land in the occupied west bank in almost three decades. what is the status and how big is the peace movement inside israel right now? are we talking about a very slim majority that is inconsequential? i know you are talking about hope, but give us a sense of where the peace movement stands right now inside of israel. >> the peace movement is gaining power and popularity. it started maybe only by myself. everyone was shocked and traumatized after october 7 and i was saying exact way what i was saying now.

we met in geneva and started planning a big piece of intended took us only four months to july 1 to be 6000 people and many people viewed us on social media, youtube and others. a year from now it will be 600,000, because there is no other solution. there is no other alternative besides starting a peace process. and this is why we are calling the u.s. and calling the g7 leaders, after the last meeting in italy in june. that they will support the civil society in israel and palestine to create a peace process that will lead to a lasting peace. so we are here to call the american people and the

american administration to know that there is a very strong and powerful and growing peace movement. not just in israel, but also in palestine. we are walking on the ground and calling for the partnership. as simple as that. with international support the peace movement can grow and grow and become the majority. >> maoz inon, thank you so much. we wish you and all of the work you are doing and everyone with you the best of luck as you continue to bring peace. thanks so much. >> thank you very much, ayman. next up it is time for our worst of the week. spoiler alert, if you are running for president you are on our list of contenders. s. but trelegy has shown me that there's still beauty and breath to be had.

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[ speaking minionese ] how do you cashback? junior. [ laughter ] good job junior. way to go. [ speaking minionese ] it is time for our worst of the week, the 2024 contenders edition. first up we have president biden, the democratic

candidate. despite facing calls from numerous democrats to step aside following his disastrous debate performance, biden is still insisting he will stay in the race and that only god himself could convince him otherwise. then there is the republican candidate, donald trump, who argued we had the best week with the supreme court immunity ruling. to be clear while he might've one this week, all of us have lost. trump used july 4 to send an unhinged post on his knockoff twitter attacking jack smith as well as the president and vice president. last but not least, there is longshot candidate rfk junior. following a vanity fair expose that detailed sexual assault allegations against him from 1998. this week he went on the breaking point podcast and responded to the allegation, saying he is, quote, not a church boy. i have so many skeletons in my

closet. when pressed to respond directly to the allegations he would not comment. msnbc has not verified vanity fair's reporting, no are as -- nor has rfk responded. he boasted that it is hard to tell what is a conspiracy theory and what is not, but if elected he will not, quote, take sides and will push for the truth about what really happened on 9/11. back with me, joe walsh, former republican congressman of illinois and tom nichols, staff writer for the atlantic. good to have both of you back. tom i will start with you. who is your pick? >> it is just too big of a buffet. this week. i think rather than keep punching joe biden, i have to go with rfk. you know, the sign of a

historic family now in during the last phase of his bizarro campaign for president. with pictures of eating dogs. i also want to give a shout out to another person on the periphery and point out that america's mayor, quintessential new yorker rudy giuliani was disbarred in new york this week. if you asked any of us 20 years ago, we would never have seen it. i think i have to go with rfk for the total weird factor of all of this. >> obviously that was a disturbing picture. we don't know what that was. i know people were saying it was a dog, but no matter what it is, the picture itself was on settling and disturbing. joe, who do you have? who are you going with? >> look, to answers. every week it is donald trump. the only president in american history who lost an election

and refused to concede and refuse to participate in the peaceful transition of power and he led an attempt to violently overthrow an election. he is the worst american of all time. but rfk junior, i did not know there were two sides to 9/11. i thought everybody knew what happened on 9/11. how nuts and dangerous is that guy? >> and how insulting to the families of the americans and all the others that lost their lives on that morning. rfk junior is not the only one causing problems for various reasons. there is his running mate, nicole shanahan. she recently engaged in rhetoric, common among the q and on movement by suggesting that the government may be possessed. not only do you have 9/11 truth errs, but a full-blown conspiracy endorsement. >> i should correct myself and say i don't know what he was

eating either. he has to actually contend with the rumor that he was eating a dog, because people would believe it at this point because of everything that happened in that bizarre campaign. including stuff that normally would have ruled you out of contention for being on a school board. you know, instead of national politics. joe's point about the two sides of 9/11, we are just so used to the kennedy campaign that we shrug and say you know, the guy had a worm in his brain, what are you going to do? it tells you something about what kind of country we have become. >> to pick up on that point about what kind of country we have become, i have one more bonus pick and that is the extremist gop nominee for governor of north carolina. this is a video showing robinson recently endorsing

political violence. here is what he told a crowd of supporters last week. watch. >> there was a time that we used to beat people on the battlefield and guess what we did? we killed it. some folks need killing. it is time for somebody to say it. >> some folks need killing. it is time for somebody to say it. donald trump has not gone that far. he has definitely insinuated revenge against his political opponents. this is a guy running for governor in north carolina on the republican ticket, joe. there has been no condemnation from the republican party. they want to ignore it as if it does not happen. he has a shot at winning. >> it comes from the base of the party and i say all the time the base of the republican party is radicalized. one of the ways they are fully radicalized now and it is so sad and so dangerous. the base of the republican

party is indifferent toward or actually supportive of political violence to get their ends. this is scary, scary stuff. >> tom, your thoughts on this and again, this segment tends to be a lighthearted segment to shut out the show, but when you have a politician running for a high office in a state like north carolina, calling for political violence. he doesn't even make clear if it is his opponents or just people he does not like. for all we know it could be us, but he is calling on people that need to be killed because he does not like them and this is a guy that the republican party has not condemned, has not announced, has not tried to get him off the ticket for saying this. >> there are two things i find disturbing. overall it shows you that the republican party, joe keeps saying and is absolutely right. they have accepted that the only path to survival as a movement is through minority will. imposing the will of the minority on everyone else in

america. as part of that they have fetishized violence. it is sexy. it is exciting. that is why you have a guy at the heritage foundation talking about it will be bloodless if they let it be bloodless. this is really repulsive. the second thing i find deeply repulsive about this is he said it standing in a church. i am a christian. i'm sorry, to me that is obscene. to their credit it looked like a couple of people were sort of, what are we doing here, shifting around. i hope they were uncomfortable. to talk that way at all as an american political candidate is repugnant. to talk that way in churches obscene. >> it seems every time we think the republican party cannot go any lower with some of its candidates, they find someone who even takes the party lower than we could have imagined.

joe walsh and tom nichols, thank you both for joining us this evening. greatly appreciated as always. make sure to come back tomorrow night. i will be talking to a u.s. airman who left his post in protest of the israel hamas war. that and much more starting at the clock p.m. eastern sunday only on msnbc. until then i am ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night.

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so anything much going on? in the news? enjoying these sleepy summer days without much happening?