without parole. for the mengel family , who were raising kevin and morgan's children, there was finally some justice, they said, and knowing morgan will remain behind bars forever. >> i want her to be in jail for the rest of her life. i want her to know that i'm going to be there when her daughter walks down the aisle. i'm going to be there when her daughter has a baby. i'm going to be there with her sons when they meet their wives and graduate from high school. i'm going to get to see all of that, and she is not. she is going to live this way for the rest of her life. >> that's all for this edition of dateline. i am craig melvin. thank you for good morning and welcome to

this sunday edition of morning joe weekend. let's dive into some of the conversation you may have missed or may just want to see again. >> stuart, i just want to go to you, i hear these people going oh, we've seen this for the past two, three years and dada. but all of the reports in the media should've reported this. if i had gone in and talk to the president which i've done a lot, if i had gone in and talk to the president and saw anything like this i would tell people the next day. i would tell the president i'm so sorry mr. president, but this isn't working. you know, as i told viewers here many times two, three hours, had conversations with him late at night, had a conversation with him late at night this week never seen anything anything that gave me pause which i guess asks the bigger question what happened last thursday night and why should what should the democrats do about it.

>> well, you know, you make a really good point, republicans meet with president biden all the time and if they were coming out of these meetings, they would be saying it, but what happened? i thought they would be so good in the debate that they were spinning that he would be on drugs. so it is the whole parse. look, i think he had a very, very bad debate. i've been involved in a lot of debates where, once it starts to go south it goes south, he has a bad night, okay now it is june, you move on. you know, i don't want to get all reality based here, but you know, the last time the white house held onto the party was 1988, no president has ever lost reelection with unemployment numbers like these, with an economy this strong. i think that if everybody just takes a deep breath here, you have a guy who is calling for a trial and conviction for treason

the daughter of a former republican vice president and former member of congress and everybody who is supporting donald trump is an accomplice to that. republicans are not out there defending liz cheney and calling up donald trump for this extraordinary accusation and call. >> and by the way, again, we have said here and i certainly said last friday after the debate that joe biden needed to consider the possibility of getting out of the race that there should be time the president should be given the time to make that decision. i think they are still going through that process right now and again we should sit back, give him time to make the decision. that said though, jim pulmonary, you know, it is fascinating that republicans are so concerned about this and, you know, just

melting down over it when, in fact, they have got a guy that has talked about the trial for treason and the execution of liz cheney, talked about executing the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, talked about being a dictator from day one, etc. etc. and then you have got joe biden , bad night, terrible night, worst night in debate history, no doubt about it, and at the same time over the past three and half year, strongest economy in the world, strongest dollar and 50 years, lowest unemployment in 40 years, strongest alliances in nato, in the history of nato and i can go on and on and on. i don't mind them being offended and deeply disturbed by what they saw last thursday night, but i'm just curious why they aren't as disturbed by a guy who says he will go around and tried for treason all of his political enemies and enemies in the media, even generals. >> yeah. i mean, democrats wring our

hands, we've been accused of being too soft, but we don't-- i think the fact that on our side we are taking a moment to say okay, what happened here? interested to see, very interested to see the abc news interview tonight and how the president does there and how he does on the campaign, there is the big nato summit next week to see-- to put thursday night in context and understand what we are really dealing with here. that is the responsible thing to do, and on the other-- and i think it really just -- it rings to before-- it is not just, it is beyond hypocrisy, but the real danger from the republican side about them continuing. it really brings into relief what they do, continuing to prop him up. i mean, the military tribunal thing about liz cheney, that is, given the supreme court ruling on immunity, justice mayor's docent, where she talked about all of the things that he might

be considered to do and considered official act and be immune from you know, i'm actually terrified by it. >> welcome everybody should be, cheney should be and everybody else that he is threatened, mark millie, the general has given his life to this country and a lot of people in the media who he has threatened and said he's coming after, good reason to be concerned. you know, reverend now, stuart, as he does, brings up some great points. i forgot the republicans were so concerned that he was going to turn in a good performance, president biden, so concerned that they were talking about him being on cocaine, mountain dew, red bull, you know, i don't know, somebody probably said he is crushing up adderall, going to snort it, because time and time again, he got the best of him, got the best of him and the last couple of the state of the union address is and even the wall street journal article, which,

of course they were patting themselves on the back, but there's a story to write about joe biden and they didn't write that story, they, instead, they went to a guy, kevin mccarthy, who said on this certain day that biden was great and he was great in the meetings and he was told his staff members that biden was a tough negotiator. again, all of this blinking monday morning that the press should've done this the press should've done that. okay, well if i had a story i would have told everybody here. if the republicans had a clear story for wall street journal had a clear story they would have quoted somebody other than kevin mccarthy, who actually contradicted what he told his own staff earlier, so, again it is not to say last thursday night wasn't a disturbing night, it was. but i guess the question is--

question is what does biden need to do to explain away thursday night and what does he need to do to move forward with the confidence of democratic thought leaders and political leaders like you, as well as the elected officials in the party? >> i think he needs to do what he is beginning to do today. he needs to go back out to the american people, he's going to wisconsin today. he's doing the interview with stephanopoulos, he's going to have a rigorous-- they reported that at the campaign he will have a rigorous schedule. he needs to let the american people see him and know that he is fine. i think what is so disingenuous is, not only the wall street journal story, which clearly contradicts what had been said in the past about kevin mccarthy is democrats saying, well, this is not just a one off thing, there has been signs before,

well, why didn't you tell us about the signs before? where did the science come from? and as you said the republicans were telling us he was high on something at high energy. nobody knew this was coming so, all of the sudden steward we get all of these people that say i saw something wrong after- the-fact. they-- none of them said this before the back. democrats were now running for the hills-- some democrats, donors and some republicans. i've been around the president as much is any, you know, body that leads the civil rights organization. i have never seen any signs, so stuart, where do the signs come from and what responsibility do the people that sought the so- called signs have to have told us this before a bad debate? >> yeah. look, something is sort of odd here, the question is, is joe biden qualified to be president.

now, that was a fair question in december 2020. who knows? you never know about somebody who is elected president, if they will be up to it, but here we are and what we have? we have probably the most successful first-term president since world war ii. we have a guy who put together an international coalition about saving the world and europe and ukraine. we have someone who has passed these bills and all of these republicans are running on their. this is a serious question, is there any republican running for reelection who is running an ad are talking about a bill that they voted for? i don't think so. they are all up there like jd vance, saying he did the cleanup, the lakes, the best accomplishment that he hasn't he voted against it. so look-- i've been in a lot of campaigns, people thought george bush should get out after real blue eight lead and

you have to really work at that, but the only thing you can do is go forward and prove that you are capable, you can't talk your way out of this, you just have to go forward and do the job and people will calm down. >> and stuart, let me just ask this question. democrats nate may not want to hear from me as an independent and former republican, may not want to hear from you but i don't really care, because you know, we republicans, when we were republicans, we used to know how to win elections and we used to know how to sideline the crazies. so, stuart, let me ask you, what you democrats need to do? >> look. i think democrats need to rally around president bush-- sorry, someone capable of being president, i just named the wrong president. president biden. it's just-- this kind of panic is never good in a campaign it

is when you prove yourself when you have a bad night and everybody has bad nights. don't give me this is historic bad, it is a bad debate and i think you forget about the business of trying to show what the stakes are in this race and i think the higher the stakes are, and they are astronomically high, arguably, i think conclusively higher than any election that i have been to-- that is what you should be about. you have a successful president rallying around, go out there, walk with a little swagger, have confidence. it is there, you are right, they are wrong, go out and take it. warning joe weekend will be right back. right back. t home is also your. i asked myself, why doesn't pilates exist in harlem? so i started my own studio.

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ian, an earthquake, a political earthquake. we expected it, but just an historic loss for the tories, what does it mean. >> well, couple of lessons for the americans. the first labor action that didn't-- when you look at their percentages, didn't perform all that differently in 2019, up 34% just under they achieved a total vote, as opposed to 32, back in 2019. so it goes to show, what you need to do is run a campaign that works for your electoral system, in the same way that people in the usa you got 7 million more votes in the general, but it doesn't matter it doesn't work that way. what happened here is that the tories fell apart. they lost an election that was largely about incompetence. it wasn't about who was on the left door on the right. these were people that were not capable of running the government and labor was

consistent in that and able to really undermine labor. also night nigel farage is reform failed. seven times you get to see a times the charm and they were able to take about 14% of the vote and really take away large numbers of conservatives. in fact it looks like two thirds of the seat lost by the tories were because of nigel farage and the reform party and not because of labor. so this is a massive identity crisis forward for the tories. but certainly a change of the election with a substantial majority. >> and a bit of a-- i know it doesn't sound romantic andrew, and these days of social media and 32nd tv ads, but it is a revolution for a technocrat. this guy talked about ruling

with humility, he talked about how labor was not going to be driven by ideology, he said country first, party second and then something-- said something that those of us who have been telling donald trump since 2015 have never heard from him, which is if you voted against me he said, know that i will work for you, i will work for you and do what it takes to represent you the best i can. it is a crushing blow, as the headlines are saying for the tory party and at the same time, quite a win for a moderate technocrat. >> yes, it has been quite a nice reversion. we have had, in britain, by prime minister's and seven years, we have had chaos in government since 2016, which is when the country voted to leave the eu.

and we have had a succession of increasingly bizarre administrations on the tory side. now the country has opted for a stayed relatively boring centrist. someone who is interested in how things work as much as what he wants to get done. 's background is in the public service, he was the director of public prosecutions here and, who talks a lot about the politics of duty, who talks about the exhaustion with populist politics and wanting to bring back politics that tread lightly on people's lives. so it is a change in tone. there are some examples from sort of post populist politics in what he has done to wrenches party from the far left back into something which is much more electable and which has delivered this very big majority today. >> so, ian, people waking up not following european politics closely they ask the question why is it that france, germany,

the rest of europe seems to be darting rights to a populist right and brittain is moving left? why is that? >> it is really not about which way they are heading logically, it is about incumbency not having strength. you think about migration. think about inflation and then think about disinformation and you have three strong factors that are driving people to say we do not want the people that are governing. we think our system is run by people that are not legitimate that's don't represent us and we saw that in a big way in germany, not just because scholz is doing badly, but also the aft and the far right, led by someone that we let's consider a fascist, not only very well in east germany, but also in the wealthy north, in france, emmanuel macron has gotten pummeled by the far right and the far left.

the far left is doing better right now than macron's own party and the only reason they will keep the far right out of a majority likely over the coming days is because of a deal, between the centrist and the far left, something, of course, conservatives in the uk are not able to do with the far right in their own country and now in the uk you have a decisive repudiation of the conservatives, who have governed for years now in favor of the outsiders. outsiders are kind of not very exciting centrist, they don't run a competent government, but really the message here is throw out the guys that we don't like and you know, joe, coming after the pandemic where you had this enormous amount and everyone's lives were disrupted and everyone is taken lace, there is a massive hangover. that money has run out, inflation is high, people are moving from country to country again and you have got a whole bunch of leaders in the world

holding the back for that. that also happened in south africa, and historical loss, not anything anyone was talking about in the u.s., but a shock for the anc in india now a coalition government. why? because a lot of people were just not as happy with what the incumbency meant, even in a government that is now running the economy over 8% per year. this, if anything, is a tough message for the u.s. in november, that is probably it. >> andrew, what does it mean for foreign-policy? >> i don't think it means an awful lot actually, basically he has presented himself as a centrist, he is very keen to repudiate the legacy of jeremy corbin, his previous successor of the labor party, corbin was a pacifist and very skeptical about nato he will be in the u.s. next week for nato's 75th anniversary household he is on

the alliance he will talk about the importance of arming the ukraine. he will move towards a more constructive relationship with europe although he is not going to charge back into the arms of the european union. there is still a big fracture in britain over brexit and no party is particularly willing to poke that bear. i think what you would see is a warmer relationship with europe and a pretty steady state relationship with the u.s. even in the event of a change in president. >> all right, britain editor of the economist in parliament and resident of the founder of eurasia group erin brimmer, thank you both very much, we greatly appreciated. coming up, how the supreme court's ruling on presidential immunity is already impacting the only case against donald trump that has been tried. we will get to that coming up next. next. it's time for a fresh aph to pet food.

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the sentencing and donald trump's hush money criminal trial conviction now will not take place next week as originally planned, the hearing will happen on september the 18th. that is at the earliest. judge, juan mershon approved it earlier yesterday after they argued for the supreme court's immunity calls for a new trial. let's bring in former litigator and nbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin. so, lisa, first of all, were you surprised this delay, and secondly, what do these months now by trump's legal team? >> i wasn't surprised that there was a delay of some sort. that trump would allow there to be a briefing on the verdict particularly after the new york da's office said they would

consent to that briefing. what surprised me was the amount of delay that were postponing the sentencing if that happens at all. those were the judge's words, not mine, till september 18th. that was the surprise. >> so, july 11th, originally scheduled that was a week from now, september 18 that it could be later than that. so, what is the link here, as you look at it, between the supreme court's decision on presidential immunity and what we are seeing now. what could trump's team argue, could they argue for a new trial? >> they are not even arguing for a new trial. they are arguing to set aside the verdict completely and their argument is this. that the supreme court's decision doesn't just and for the president having immunity from prosecution for his official act, but it is immunity from even offering official act evidence in any case, no matter whether or not the charges deal with official act or purely personal or private conduct. let's rewind back in time to the manhattan da's trial where,

even though it was about the case about the payments to stormy daniels and later the cover about that, through business records, there was evidence of things that happened during donald trump's presidency, including treats that he issued in may of 2018, after the truth became known, where he admitted that he reimbursed michael cohen. there's also an office of government ethics financial disclosure that trump filed for the year, 2017. that also admits to that reimbursement and then there are a slew of other public statements and tweets that the prosecution said during the trial go to the pressure campaign on michael cohen, not to flip, in other words, from donald trump, in nick indicating emma or insinuating, if you stay in line we will take care of you, but if you turn me in, your life is about to become a living , and indeed that is what happened to michael cohen. the prosecution introduced all of that evidence at trial, the defense, now saying none of

that should have entered into evidence, because it is all reflective of his official act and therefore the verdict should be set aside. i don't think that they will win, because i don't think that any of that evidence was critical or pivotal to the prosecution proving all of the elements of the crime, but it is not a crazy motion as with some of the things that they have tried in the past. it is certainly what i would describe as nonfrivolous. >> so, rudy giuliani can no longer practice line new york. a former new york city mayor who tried to overturn former president trump's 2020 election loss was disbarred in the state yesterday. the order came from a new york state appeals court, citing false statements. that he made about mass voter fraud. after joe biden's 2020 victory. the order states that rudy giuliani had no good faith basis to believe the lies that he spread about the election, specifically citing comments giuliani made at his now infamous four seasons total landscaping press conference,

which took place on the day the election was called for biden. giuliani currently faces charges in georgia, in arizona and is an unindicted co- conspirator see and special counsel, jack smith putt federal election interference case against trump did julie o'neill's law license in dc remains under review. and remember, steve bannon is now in prison. lisa, your take on this giuliani development? >> i think my take is where you were about to go which is, we continue to see the consequences of participating in the big lie or in efforts to obstruct investigations into the big lie as in benin's case, from everybody around donald trump, all of his loyal acolytes will continue to pay the price for their loyalty, whether through indictment or other serious consequences, like civil liability. rudy giuliani giuliani, po's

election workers $148 million after a defamation verdict and yet, the lesson earlier this week is that donald trump will likely escape criminal accountability for his participation and efforts to overthrow the results of the 2020 election, while everyone else around him falls and that is a lesson, not only for all of us, but all of the people who continue to surround him and to enable his lies and attempts at autocracy. >> yeah, it is a one-way loyalty msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin, thank you very much. straightahead, we will speak with a vanity fair reporter with a piece titled rfk junior's family doesn't want him to run. even they may not know his darkest secrets. we will be back with that in a moment. moment. tor. i oversee approximately 20 people and my memory just has to be sharp. and i realized,

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we are developing agents... with powers far beyond mortal men or you might just explode. [ laughing ] the new vanity fair investigative reports takes a deep dive background of robert f kennedy junior, titled rfk junior's family doesn't want him to run, even the they may not know his darkest secrets, they tell several never before heard stories about the presidential candidate. it also features reporting on how some of his family members are worried about the prospect of rfk junior causing a quote, political disaster. to join us now is the reporter behind the story, vanity fair

special correspondent, josh hagan, who also sat down with robert f kennedy junior, an extraordinary piece, joe, it is good to have you with us. i want to talk about the family dynamics year, the pressure that they can or cannot put on him at this point. but let's get into your story a little bit. so much has been made about the -- for lack of the better term, the crazy side of the conspiracy theories, but this gets into a little more of a dark past for this man. >> that's right. well, one of the things i saw to do is figure out how did it come to this? you know? 20 years ago, bobby kennedy junior was a hero. right? of the environment, of democrats, he was carrying the legacy of the kennedy name in a way that people could get behind and that slowly but surely he transformed into somebody else and in fact as my reporting shows, he basically got a divorce from the environmental movement, you know? all of the groups he had been a movement of wash their hands of

him, because they couldn't cope with his anti-science vaccine use that he insisted on crusading for and there is an even darker. the man's life is full of tragedy and trauma. you know? his father tragically assassinated and 68, brothers, cousins who have died tragically and this trauma, you know, he was a drug addict for many years which a lot of people don't really know the real story behind, but it went on a long time and so he has a certain pathology that his family is very familiar with, they are very reluctant to talk about it on the record. and so, part of my mandate here was to figure out what motivates this guy and why he has become the person he hasn't, by the way they are all worried especially after last week hole debate that he could become a viable third option and really flip this election and there's a blind terror among some in the kennedy family and i think probably some people in congress sure that.

>> as you say, he was, for so many years, a northstar in the environmental. i know people worked very closely with him, and he used his work for go to new york harbor is cleaned up, in many ways, because his efforts did good there. so where you point-- is there a moment in time, or an era where return between the 2004 election, he claimed that was a stolen election. >> that's right. >> a little bit of that kind of talk. where you put your finger? >> well, right before that you know, in the late 90s a lot of people don't remember a lot of this, but his brother was tragically killed, and his cousin, john junior was killed in a plane crash, his cousin, michaels cagle was accused of murder and going to prison for it. there was a lot of really tragic, terrible things happening right in his family and background. so, he was soon to be in a very dark divorce that i detail in

my story and there was just a lot of things conspiring at the time and around that time was you know kind of looking for a new crusade the truth is he had been involved in looking at mercury in fish in the water and he sort of all of the mercury story and then they came to this sort of conspiracy that mercury and vaccine somehow had to do with autism as we all recall and he just ran with it and even though it was debunked he wouldn't let go of it. and he started to surround himself with people who were, frankly, cranks. some of whom are in his campaign today and for some reason he couldn't let go of it, and his family seems to believe that there is a pathology of a need for attention that he is now addicted to attention and he is addicted to having these people around him telling him that he's a hero and, you know, i am not a psychologist but you know, part of my mandate in this story was to try and figure out that, you know how i

see it. and in 2014, starting rather than, groups like the nrdc, the national defense resource counsel, they broke with him, and reverend kuyper, who she is the face of, broke with him and then he moved to california and what we see since is the kennedy you see today. >> so there is-- we have this confluence happening right now, where he has-- so, you sort of chronicle damaged-- you know past that the family taught you, the pathology they talk about. dangerous years and then there is sort of a colliding a time where there are platforms for him, the trumpet vacation. so talk about that, how that allows him to take off. >> think about the world of the last 15 years, glenn beck, alex jones right? trump basically ceded his entire political career dining

out on a conspiracy that barack obama's birth certificate was fake. we have all watched the slow evolution of this conspiratorial world. there is mistrust out there in the populace and the internet is there to do your own research and it creates an entire voting block of people that are just like i'm looking for another answer. i don't like the truth side of things. i'm going to go into sort of alternate truth, and you know, kennedy has followed this. and there's a real critical moment in the story, where he goes to trump tower after trump has been elected and seeks to you know, run a commission on vaccines. and, you know, a lot of people in his orbit, that was a breaking point for a lot of people including reverend kuyper who saw this and said we can't do this anymore. you know, we don't buy-- you can't come out one day and say don't believe the science on vaccines and then, the next day and say believe the science on the climate so they just didn't

see any path forward with him, and after that, you know, he really embraced more deeply this conspiracy world. along comes the pandemic and, by the way, look at this children's defense fund that is his anti-vaccine group, look at how much money he has been making since the pandemic. he was making $40,000 a year was his salary into the 16 where i believe-- no, 2000-- 2022, $500,000. so, you know, look at the numbers, follow the money, follow what he is following. >> which is ironic, because he criticizes accuses others of profiting from the pandemic and vaccines and everything else. so, he did not talk to you for the story. he reached out to the campaign for comment and they didn't get back to you on that. but in your previous encounters with him, you are right, he deploys all of the trump tactics, not just with you, you are not going to give me a fair interview. so therefore anything that is published all reported out and checked, he can dismiss out of hand.

>> yeah, and you know he has that in the past, "new york times" and all of the media, they are in the pocket of the cia, the pocket of the pharmaceutical companies. and so, you know at some point you just have to say when is enough enough right? and so i encourage people to read the story and decide for yourself what is at work here. >> the new pieces titled rfk junior's family doesn't want them to run, even they may not know his darkest secrets, it is on my now. special correspondent and vanity fair correspondent joe hagan. thank you. up next, grammy singer and songwriter michael mcdonald join us to discuss their unlikely collaboration. on.

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that is the doobie brothers performance of what a fool believes, winner of the grammy awards for both song and record of the year in 1979. it was written by rock 'n roll hall of famer, michael mcdonald, alongside kenny loggins. it is also the title of michael's's new memoir, cowritten with his friend, actor and comedian, paul reiser. what a fool believes tells michael's story of being a high school dropout, from ferguson missouri, taking readers through his journey to musical stardom both with the doobie brothers and also as a solo artist and michael mcdonald and paul reiser join us now. it is great to have you both with us. michael i will start with you.

tell us how the title reflects your story and how and why you and paul decided to get together to write this together. >> well-- first of all i am still pinching myself as the remarkable luck of you are going to write a book for the first time in somebody with paul's skill set says oh, i will help you. it was pretty remarkable by itself. we have known each other for years and paul has always been interested in what makes people tick, you know, being an actor and having his background as a writer and author. and actor, you know, i thought to myself i can't pass this up. so, something i probably never would have gotten around to doing, i don't think it would exist today if it once and for

paul's help on the project. and i think what a fool believes is an aft title. i didn't at first. i was the one who thought it's a little obvious, i want something more abstract and weird you know, but paul talked me into keeping it and as we wrote the book as the book kind of came to life you know, in our own eyes the story kind of developed as we wrote it, it seemed more apropos with each chapter he wrote. so i think in the end the title really fits what the story is about and-- >> paul, big fan, i sat in my bathroom for years, just kept going back to it i love it so much. a lot of your books have been interactive, obviously a different muscle you are using

writing with a friend in writing about someone else. talk to me about the process. >> well, yeah, this is the first time i ever wrote something or helped write something that was not for you know, my personal use, it was mike's story and to be honest it was very selfish, because i wanted to read mike's story because i had been a friend of mike's for years and a fan and i never really knew and i think a lot of people don't know mike actual history. so i said write a book and he said oh well i'm not sure how i would do that, well, we will help it. so, the reality is, it is all mike's writing, it is historic, he lived it and my contribution was just sort of say that is funny let's dig deeper into that or let's-- you know, this is a great story but maybe it doesn't work in your book, so i was just sort of the eyes and ears, but mike was strikingly honest and forthcoming about his life and where you know,

where he would've done things differently and how-- the through line of the book became life happens, despite some of the choices we make, sometimes because of the choices we make and when it was done i was really gratified that oh, i get it now, i know who this kind of is and i have more respect for him and admiration knowing his full story. >> paul, molly, i was curious if writing a book alone or with another person is a completely different experience, is there any thing where you guys got stuck and you couldn't resolve it or any sort of-- to change the friendship at all? speak to me about that experience a little bit. >> well, you know, it was more fun than writing alone, because i had someone else to complain too. but no we never got stuck and when we started this a couple of years back just when

lockdown started and it was very convenient because we had no jobs nobody was going anywhere so it just became sort of this fun thing and at the start there was no publisher, no deal we just said let's do this and if it is fun we will do it and if at any point it is not fun or it is not making you happy, mike we will just pull the plug. so it was really just done-- it was very easy. we zoomed, we talked, i would estimate questions and mike were talking i would just type it up you know, there was no shortage of great stories and, you know, not only mike's history, but really a great view of rock 'n roll history you know, mike's career spans this wide breadth of illegal business. so, it is a fascinating read on a couple of rolls. >> "the new york times"-- >> and having said yes. >> "the new york times" best

seller, what a fool believes, a memoir is on sale now. co-authors, michael mcdonald and paul reiser, thank you both for being on the show this morning, we needed that. we have a second hour of morning joe weekend for you right after the break. break. ( ♪♪ ) asthma. it can make you miss out on those epic hikes with friends. step back out there with fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. ( ♪♪ ) fasenra helps prevent asthma attacks. most patients did not have an attack in the first year. fasenra is proven to help you breathe better so you can get back to doing day-to-day activities. and fasenra helps lower the use of oral steroids.

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♪meow-co welcome back to "morning

joe: weekend". we have a like to get 2021 this sunday. let's take a look at more this week's conversations. >> during a meeting with democratic governors on wednesday, president biden said he may start limiting events after 8:00 p.m. so we can get more sleep. the president was asked about his health and said he was doing fine, adding, quote, it is just my brain. the governors took that as a joke, as did biden campaign member when she said he was clearly making a joke. and then he said, all kidding aside. in wisconsin interview that aired yesterday, the president defended his candidacy. >> i had a bad night. i had a bad night. the fact of the matter is, you that, you know, i screwed up, i made a mistake. but i learned from my father,

we're going to get knocked down, just get backed up. get backed up. and we are going to win this election. we are just going to beat donald trump like we did in 2020, we will beat him again. we have to get this done, all of you. i came back from do's i was in a situation do's why i didn't have a good debate. that is 90 minutes on stage. look at what i have done in 3.5 years. >> yeah, i tell you what, so many democrats on the phone nonstop since that debate. and, there is panic, no doubt there is panic all around. i said, eight days ago that the president needed to consider getting out. we needed to give it time. we needed to see what was going to happen and i think we are still there.

decision time is not upon us yet. although it may be coming soon, i think we should first honor a man who was first on the ballot 54 years ago by giving him the time and the space to make his decision before we tell him we have made hours. this week, there will be a lot more polls, there will be more interviews. there will be a nato summit. we will have more information to take in. the test of our democracy and of our citizenship is to contemplate different scenarios that could happen if joe biden decides to get out of the race. the first is to see where the man is to get all the delegate employers in the primary season this past year, we do actually have a democracy still in america. this is not a reality show. we cannot make of things as we go along.

that is what the other site does. we must instead watch with open hearts and open minds. we can't be trump begin. all of our things go to the dear leader. facts will keep coming in over the next week. we stipulate right here and right now that trump's republicans are not serious about their politics. they are not serious about their party. they are not serious about this republic. unfortunately, last week's debate reinforced that sorry truth more than ever. you probably missed this with all the whining going on out there over the past week. as bad as joe biden was that night, and he was historically bad, donald trump was even worse with his lies.

if you saw any of the polls that came out that had joe biden losing a few points, you may have noticed, as the "new york times" wrote, that independent voters took notice and donald trump actually lost independent voters in that debate. i find that staggering. now, republicans and their far right allies are in meltdown mode. i told you so. they are accusing the press of a cover-up. before they get too self- righteous, let's remember, republicans long idolized an aging republican president whose decline was so bad, he let an incoming chief of staff, howard baker, to commission a study of the 25th amendment in case they needed to use it on ronald reagan. please, please, republicans, please, right wing media outlets, spare us your moral indignation over a man who had

a really, really terrible debate but a man who has been the most effective president over the past 3 1/2 years, the most effective president in passing bipartisan legislation this century. the most effective president in strengthening the dollar over the past 50 years. the most successful president when it comes to expanding our alliances, expanding nato, expanding our defense reach all around china, spare us your shock and your indignation. 3 1/2 years, and a terrible debate. what democrats need to find out this week and what democrats need to worry about this week are not what the newspapers that were lying about joe biden for years before this past week

say, they need to look to joe biden. he needs to answer the question, is he capable of moving forward? he knows he needs to answer that question. he has answered it in interviews. he has answered it in press conference is and he has answered in the nato summit. he needs to answer it in everything that he does. as for the rest of us, that is democrats, that is independents, that is republicans in good faith. let's be smart. let's take a deep breath and let's understand it is only july 5. such a historic decision should not be made in haste. listen, the democratic party is not my party. i am an independent. it is the only party standing between our democracy, our great constitutional republic

and an autocratic bug that has promised to be dictator on day one. democrats, you had better get this right. you'd better think through it. you had better take your time and you had better take a deep breath and you'd better get this right. if you do, america will follow you. most americans do not want the other guy to be elected president of the united states. >> you are watching "morning joe: weekend" and we will be right back. ♪ ♪ . ♪ ♪

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♪♪ i swear to god, it has been like, um, it has been my therapy. i have been on the phone, unfortunately, taking a lot of calls over the past week. i know you have, too.

it is like therapy sessions talking these people down off of the ledge. i mean, they need the answer. they need it right now they bounce back and forth. they don't realize it is july 5. they don't remember, maybe 1988, when michael to caucus was up 17 points over george h.w. bush in august. >> yeah, you know, joe, we will get an answer. we will get an answer from joe biden sooner, rather than later, i would think. this is a man, as you indicated, has been in the business of politics from a

half-century. he has been on the ballot multiple times. he has been in multiple debates over the years. he can read poems. he is pretty good at the business of politics, as proven by his career. he knows what is going on. he knows the depth of trouble. he knows the debate people saw something they cannot unsee. he also knows something that apparently the biden administration has not fully explained to the american public. you know, i was thinking about this over the weekend. there were several great elements of history and different presidents that moved the economy and country forward. there was eisenhower's highway act in the 1950s that created suburbs and the booming economy and the boom in the population. there was the jfk moon program that changed things for all time, in terms of technology, research and progress for america. there was lyndon b. johnson on july 2, 1964, all those years ago, signing the first really effective civil rights legislation, it improved the country and may people feel better about the country. the biden administration has passed the tip >> act and the inflation act,

two pieces of legislation created by those who know far more about economics than i do that will modernize economies, make it more widely spread in terms of the country, red states, specifically, will benefit from it more than blue states will. the climate is on a rise, in record numbers more people will go to work today than any other time in american history. that is the biden administration. the decision on what he does going forward is his and his alone. in concert with his family, clearly. he will make direct decisions for the country and for himself. he will make the right decision for the country and himself. >> no doubt about it, he has a great record. you can go through and compare that record domestically, foreign-policy wise to anyone

else's and certainly, all of the numbers far surpass what donald trump did over those four years. donald trump i have to say really quick, you have to stop right here, all of the things i have seen in all the polling, the white house was trying to tell me this the night of the debate, in shock, while they were in shock. they really broke away from donald trump. are they spinning me? are they not spinning me? i saw the "new york times" yesterday, incredible, biden lost two or three point in most polls but independents actually broke away from donald trump toward joe biden. that is how much they were turned off by seeing this guy. for all the talk about joe biden being hidden at 8:00 and all this other stuff, you know it is donald trump that has kept his head underground politically since his debate. his staff is scared to death of having their old man go out and say crazy things.

to get him out on stage, they know when donald trump goes out, he forgets whether we have had world war ii or not. he forgets who the current president of the united states is. he thinks he is running against barack obama and beat him once and is running against him again. sometimes he gets to the end of the sentence and he just kind of goes off into left field, into pasture. they are hiding donald trump right now they don't want donald trump to get behind a microphone because the less he says, the safer they believe they are. so, another thing the biden team needs to explain is still, what exactly happened on thursday night, he talked about being exhausted. i will tell you that, again, these right-wingers, there has been , a few people are writing this, the same people who press the talking points on their, um, you know, their little newsletters, people like that and people who make sort of a

cottage industry out of attacking the president. let me tell you something. you and i spent a lot of time with the president. i spent as much time with the president over the past six, nine months as anybody in the media, maybe somebody spent more, i doubt it. i never saw anything approaching this. i spent three hours with the guy back, i think, in march, april? we talked foreign-policy for three hours. he walked me around the white house. he walked me up flights of stairs into me up to the balcony. we kept talking policy everywhere we went. i left there and talked to mika, man, this guy reminded me of your dad. he is on top of it. he is on top of it. i asked him about russia,

ukraine, what the peace process was go what bill burns was doing, we went through the west bank, with all the options were. i saw none of this. people should know this about him by now if i had, i would have said, i love you, mr. president, just like i did last friday. you know, just like donald trump, people did not like him. trump could win in 2016. so, i say this to say, i have spent a lot of time with him. you have, as well. i have no idea what happened on thursday night. i saw none of that in all the time i have spent with him and all the time i have talked with him. i am curious of your reflections of you, you are guy who have been in the over with him and in the white house with them. >> i certainly agree with you. i have spent a lot of time with this president in person and on the phone, probably more time been even president obama who i

was privileged enough to spend time with. i think the biggest surprise to me watching the debate is it was a joe biden i had never seen. i totally agree there needed to be a real concrete explanation of what happened on thursday night, but i also think where the democrats are not bringing up the right point is they need to force trump's party and trump to explain the lies he told on thursday night. there is no real pressure on going down the list of lies according to the "new york times" and say, explain to us how you justify this lie one, this like two, all the way through. he should be having to respond to the lies he told as much as we are having joe biden respond to a clearly bad night, at best, that he did, in terms of his performance. coming up next, former

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♪♪ jim, given the supreme court ruling, i kind of think your headline is pretty good. how concerned should americans be about the beryl ruling and is it overstating it saying the president could actually do some of the things that were mentioned by some of the justices, including, you know, get "seal team" 6 to act ? >> i think the american people should be clear eyed about what the candidates say. trump has been very clear whether or not he had this he believes he has immunity now

and now it looks like he had more immunity than he did 24 hours ago but that, in terms of his power, might be the least of peoples concerns who don't like them. he already has a republican party, a congress in waiting, that is extremely pro-trump, all of the restraints, all of the people in positions in power were his adversaries, his critics, they are gone. this is a trump congress in the house and a trump congress and the senate. you look at what he said what he would do with that republican coalition, what he would now do with greater immunity. he has been very clear. he will use the national guard and the military to round up millions of people and remove them from the united states. he will consider using the military to protect the southern border. he has been very clear he will

get rid of people he deems disloyal better civil servant in the united states government. he will use a pretty unique interpretation of law he believes he would win in a challenge to get rid of them. they have pre-vetted thousand, potentially tens of thousands of people they want to bring into the government to do his will and his wishes so he can much more effectively and much faster do this. imagine he does win. if he does win, the two oldest supreme court justices, 76 and 74, the possibility they could retire in the next term is real. then you would have trump begin to put in two supreme court justices, probably in their 50s or 40s, people who would be there for a long time so the end result you would have five justices over the course of history appointed by trump. the point of the column is, love it or hate it, he would come in as one of the most powerful figures and he would

stress test it immediately. he has very specific plans. this is not the haphazard trump we had in 2017. this is a much more organized organization, at least the institutions around him. >> i would like to dig deeper on that. i think this is devastating and absolutely frightening and absolutely could happen because, as you said, he came in haphazardly. donald trump didn't even know he was going to win. it was one day out of an entire year where everything fell into place for him to win the presidency. they were, at the last minute, writing a victory speech, scrambling. that is not the case this time. that means every single person that is going to be around him, they are going to plan for that person to make sure they take the oath. can you explain how if donald trump even slightly pushes the envelope on this, which we know he will totally push the envelope --

>> yes. >> there will not be people around him who don't say, i don't have immunity, i can't do that. that will not be the reality. >> at all. the way you described him coming into office before is accurate. he did not think he would win. he surrounded himself with people he thought looked the part and he would do the job but they turned out to be restraints on his power. he learned to get rid of restraint to make sure you only have loyalties in the cabinet level, the white house and in the bowels of government. make sure anyone like mitch mcconnell, liz cheney, paul writing anyone with power that could not support you would be gone, all of them. there will be no person in a position of power, especially if republicans win the majority in the house and senate, who would be a trump critic who would not put the brakes on what he would do. before, there were people in

the institutions of the government that most people haven't even heard of to slow things down. no. they know where those positions are now they have all kinds of organizations inside the campaign making sure they have the right people in place. not only that, there making sure they have a legal argument for when they take these moves to take it to the court and win. the courts have shown they will side with a lot of the stuff trump has wanted to do so there won't be restraints. what can he do with that? even the things i just outlined there, he will think about using the military in a way he hasn't in the past. the justice department, throughout history, it is not necessarily written in the constitution there has to be this level of independence but through tradition and cooperation, has been an independent agency. he made a very clear will not be an independent agency. the attorney general will get

rid of everybody in the justice department they see as a threat to his power. they will get rid of the cases he has. he will start cases, probably, i guess the biden family. he has been very clear. in his own words he said he would use that to go after his own critics. yesterday on truth social he is liking and following these social media posts that talk about creating military tribunals for liz cheney and mitch mcconnell. might be hyperbole, it might not. it certainly shows you the direction he was to go in. there is nothing said in the segment he has not said or his people have not said. coming up, the man behind project 2025, the right-wing road map for a second trump presidency is striking new concerns with a cryptic threat about a second american revolution. ♪ mecca revolution. ♪ mecca a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.

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bloodless if the left allows it to be. my god. we keep talking about the second american revolution. good luck. good luck whipping people into a frenzy. they are not ready to give up their friday night football, there saturday night sec football, nfl on sunday. you know, they are taking their kids. again, this is just some right- wing fever dream. gets, they are obsessed with it, obsessed with trying to start a civil war or divide america while america is struggling economically, militarily, culturally, more than it ever has been. head of the heritage foundation and project 2025, kevin roberts, recently suggested there would be a new american revolution. listen to this earlier this week.

>> the left has taken over our institutions. the reason they are apoplectic right now, the reason that so many anchors on msnbc, for example, are losing their minds daily is because our side is when he. i come full circle on this response i just want to encourage you with some substance that we are in the process of the second american revolution that will remain bloodless, if the left allows it to be. >> yeah, okay, kevin? kevin roberts? is that right. first of all, kev, i am not lose my mind, i am actually talking. you are talking about how great america is, i say that all the time.

we talk about how great the military is. i get sick and tired of people like you trashing the military, talking about how weak the military is. it is not week. the military is stronger than it ever has been. the communist chinese are scared of us. russia is scared of us. our enemies are scared of us. actually, i am very bullish on america. warren buffett, after the 2008 collapse, warren buffett said only a full would bet against the united states of america. i believe that man, i believed him my entire life and i believe it now you are the one talking about revolutions. why are you so angry, kevin? why are you losing your mind? america is great, we are strong militarily. we are strong economically. we are strong culturally. we are stronger culturally than ever before. there are some things we need to improve on, we need to do a better job building community.

it would be great, kevin, if you would focus on that, building community and not trying to divide people, unite people and bring them together. i would love to see the church pews filled back up. that would provide some community, as well. this whole idea that we need a new revolution, i mean, i know it is good for fundraising, but it is just bs. as far as people on msnbc freaking out, i don't do it they are freaking out, i am not freaking out. it is not because we are losing. let me get some iced tea, kevin, i will drink to you. man, i am get have to give up sweet tea one day. that they is not today. kevin, just a little reminder, trump republicans lost in 2017. trump republicans lost in 2018. trump republicans lost in 2019. trump republicans lost in 2020. trump republicans lost in 2021. trump republicans lost in 2022.

trump republicans lost in 2023. it is trump republicans talking about revolution because you can't win at the ballot box. so please, who is freaking out? i didn't see people at msnbc starting riots on january 6th. i didn't see people at msnbc , um , with bear spray on cops, they are crushing cops' heads inside of doors or defecating. i know that is your side, kev, that is your side. the so-called hostages, as donald trump calls them, yeah, you guys are the ones who have been freaking out . so i don't know why you are so angry. try reading the red letters in the new testament.

just take a deep breath. is going to be okay. we are not going to have a second american revolution. we are not going to have a civil war. americans, they are okay. they are okay. they respect each other too much to do that. i want to bring in joyce now, she joins us, also with a special correspondent of fast politics podcast, both of them staying up all night watching the fireworks. of course, msnbc political analysts , here is a frightening document. i understand, i here it is really frightening. what i want to know is, is this a fund-raising gimmick or do they want to fundamentally remake american democracy in a

way that is more authoritarian? >> it looks like the latter, joe, because the context for the comments that mr. roberts made in project 2025, he heads the heritage foundation. the heritage foundation has produced this immense document talking about retaining

america's values. it is a very small vision of america. it is an america that would just be a slice of the population rather than this notion that america is a country where everyone can have their own beliefs and we can live our lives consistent with those beliefs, so long as we don't infringe on other peoples values. this is a christian nationalist approach that is really, in many ways, the second revolution you are talking about as being something that americans don't want. this is an effort to force that on americans. >> thanks. just about three weeks to go until the paris olympics, we will talk about how women have pushed to the forefront of competitive running. "morning joe: weekend" will be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪ let see who is going to paris. it wasn't the best start for sha'carri richardson. now she starts to wind up. sha'carri richardson wins! >> that was sha'carri richardson qualifying for her first olympic games after winning the 100 meter finals late last month in eugene, oregon. richardson finished in first place with an incredible time of 10.71 seconds. for runners like richardson, who will be going for gold in the paris olympics, their path to success was paved by the many women before them. throughout history a number of men in the medical

establishment media and athletic associations have fought to keep women from running. sometimes literally trying to push them out of the race. that picture, by the way, is catherine switzer, who, in 1967, became the first woman to officially run the boston marathon, despite the race organizer trying literally to throw her out. in her new book, entitled better, faster, father, how running changed everything we know about women, journalist maggie burtons tells the story of catherine switzer and other women who have defied regulations or propelled themselves to the forefront of competitive running. i don't know if you are a runner but i am. i love this. i think we need this so much. what did you set out to do in putting together this book?

>> this book started for me many years ago. i grew up as the only girl in my family. i have four brothers. i have always been a sports enthusiast, a sports fan. as a journalist, i really started my career writing about women in the workplace and the ceo and things like that. when i started to apply those same findings to, you know, women athletes, i was shocked. we are not talking about just $0.60 on the dollar, we are talking about less than 1% than what male peers make in some instances. i was often faced with this response that it was because of biology, it is because women are physiologically weaker and slower, so they are therefore less valued in this athletic marketplace. i really wanted to look into

the context of that history there, you know, in the midst of what women were told about the room physiological capabilities. so in the book you write about the untold stories of groundbreaking female runners. is there a favorite that you have in all of this? >> yeah, i had one, florence mcdonald, this incredible runner. she was in the 1928 olympics. she was only an 18-year-old them. that was the first olympic games where women were allowed to have track and field events. there were only three running events, the 100 meter, the 4 by 100 meter relay and the 800 meter. there was a lot of fear mongering and mythmaking around the 800 meter race, even before it began because there were a lot of people who said this was going to be too hard on the female body. it was two laps around the track

, the 800 meter. you know, in the aftermath, actually, there were all these stories that said the women didn't make it or they dropped out or they fainted or needed medical attention afterwards and i was able to kind of piece together parts of the story, she was the only american in the final. she had never really been quoted in any of this media coverage about what really happened. i was able to sort of talk to her son, who is still alive, and find an interview that was done with her when she was in her 90s, kind of explaining what really happened. the women really did actually great. >> they made both laps, that is amazing. lauren, go ahead. >> i love the rewriting of history and the pictures where we have never had it. i was curious of what you felt like were the big turning points of elevation in the sport. obviously, i think about women like flo joe and sha'carri

richardson but how much did title ix make a difference in the seriousness in which women participated in sports, especially running at the highest level? i mean, title ix has deathly made a huge difference, just in the way women's sports is perceived. it took time. the women's olympic marathon did not exist until 1984. this is only the 40th anniversary of the women's olympic marathon. even up to that point, you know, for teachers >> when they were voting on whether to include this event, there were still doctors that said this may not be physiologically possible for women, it may not be physiologically beneficial for women, there could be undo health issues. we had to fight these myths along the way. title ix is one step at there are so many steps beyond that when they were told they were not able to and when they had no access. a hedge the >> ahead, a new broadway play about two characters of

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to give us the only place we could escape the stench of those cigars. >> that is disgusting. >> that is a look at the off way -- off-broadway play with two characters closely resembling former house speaker nancy pelosi and congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez. the characters clash repeatedly with their governing philosophies and the vision for the future of the country. the actresses join us now. good morning to you both. we are so happy to have you here. >> thank you. >> i feel like i was dancing around on who "n/a" really are. can we assume it is nancy pelosi and aoc? >> that is what people takeaway the basic idea. it is about real rooms, real events. it is like a wonderful exercise, really brilliant dialogue, it goes to various scenes and takes place in the void of their ideas and their

conflicting ideas. this is three generations. >> right. i want to talk about your character and what it is like to work with the woman sitting to your right. >> it is a master class every single day i feel very fortunate. i feel like i am learning. i feel like it is fun. it is like a dance. i keep describing it as jazz, it is very, very much alive or like the tango type thing. we are meeting and following this. >> it is not in a real place. it is real dialogue but it changes you. sometimes it is angry, i have to tell you about this girl. i am kind of micro. i see a tree. i am all wrapped

up in the tree. she sees the whole woods. she has an overview of anything she does. i have a micro view of what i am doing at that moment. so having this, we had blackouts. i am like, what is next? i have no idea. the first couple of times i said, it went dark and i said, i am happy. >> i am happy to oblige. >> you were leading the dance sometimes. >> the first couple times, you know, i would say, what's next? >> you know that both of the players here are real-life players. >> yeah, of course, i worked for hillary clinton, i have been a big observer of women leaders of all generations. what is interesting is that you

use them as a jumping off point, something i thought of, for example, when hillary ran, there were a lot of younger people that thought she was too old into much establishment. young women protesting on the campus, she was you. she was the radical. she was on the cover of life magazine when she was 22 years old because she had given the commencement speech at wellesley so talk about that because you were a mirror image of each other in some ways, three generations apart, you know, with pelosi, it was an older white woman that was the pioneer. now it is young women of color. what is that conversation like when you are trying to get it passed just the two characters but something at culture. >> i think it has changed within our context, which is these concepts, these ideas and sharing them and trying to find the commonality, i think exploring this type of dialogue is huge, especially for women.

air quotes, luxury to be apathetic. i think it is hugely important for audiences to experience this dialogue between two intelligent women. i think the points of view and just perspective from like experience, regardless of how much time it has been because age, obviously, is a factor but the experiences that a has n does not have. obviously, the life experience n has, a does not have. i think they rely on each other and right now, especially as a society, we could use that . that does it for us this hour. we will back here tomorrow to kick off a brand-new week of "morning joe". until then, enjoy the rest of your sunday. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ and is sunday,