that does it for us. we end on a dignified node. we will see you saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. follow us on social media at the weekend msnbc. our coverage continues with the great ali velshi. good morning, ali. >> i was ready for that great discussion but i'm more riveted by the segment we are starting right now. the first time we are ever doing it hear we don't have

graphics yet, it is called mean tweets to velshi. they spent a lot of stuff going on the last 10 days, and people are unhappy with some of the ways media is handling the discussion about the bay and joe biden. i want to name this person but the best part is, why are you calling pro-trump to step aside quite smart not before you help getting this to catastrophe re- elected. bah humbug, i am done with you. >> to be clear, the bah humbug the minute. >> we been watching you the show for the last years and months. the last 24 hours. >> i retweeted, one of your tweets, which was spot on. and you just laid it bear, you didn't take sides come you called of the balls and the strikes. >> i appreciate it but mostly it is about the fact somebody said bah humbug. >> in july. >> is christmas in july. >> have yourself a great rest of your weekend. velshi starts now.

good morning, to sunday, july 7th, i'm ali velshi. another supreme court term came to a close last week and we're stepping into a new era created by the court's radical remaking of american law. we have already seen the conservative super majority on the court back long-held personal rights and enforce the country to the right when it is overturning roe v. wade and gutting of affirmative action. the brazenness with which this court has operated during this year's historic term has been a shock to the system. the past few months alone, the justices handed donald trump multiple lifelines including a major victory that could help him avoid criminal prosecution even for trying to overturn the results of an election and for leading an insurrection. the court decision on presidential immunity could fundamentally reshape the federal government as could a series of decisions that strips the regulatory powers of the

administered state. but none of this happened by accident. the transformation of the supreme court has and part of a decade-long effort spearheaded by something called the federalist society, nationwide organization and professional network of conservative lawyers. the leading proponent of original islam, the approach to interpreting laws based on plain meaning of the text of the constitution and how it was understood at the time it was written, is an approach that led to the fall of rome. since it was founded in 1982, the federal society has been a resource for generations of conservative lawyers and jurists and other legal minds and the group has helped many rise up the ranks of the judiciary. all six of the conservative justices on the supreme court today are current or former members of the federalist society's, five of the six justices were chosen with the help of one man in particular. this man, leonard liao. he's a right-wing mega donor and cochair of the federalist society. nearly 2000 he helped

george w. bush choose john roberts and samuel alito for the supreme court, years later donald trump turned to leo and his organization for advice as well. during an interview with breitbart, while on the campaign trail in 2016, donald trump said, quote, we have rate judges, conservative hit by the federalist society. leo helped trump create list of supreme court text and all three of trump's eventual nominees, neil gorsuch, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett came from lists that leonard liao created. the majority of other nominees to the federal bench were current or former members of the federal society as well, but leonard leos influence goes beyond work in reshaping federal courts. you spent supporting project 2025, the blueprint for the next conservative administration and that is grenada by the heritage foundation which is a conservative think tank. last month in a press release announcing the formation of a

task force to counter project 2025, the democratic congressman jeff -- jared huffman noted half the groups supporting the effort have received $21.5 million in funding from leonard leos dark money network. will trump recently claimed he knows nothing about project 2025, i'll have more on that in a few minutes, many past and present colleagues including leo are deeply involved in the effort. it is important to note project 2025 is not just about the draconian policies that conservatives want to impose on americans. it is also about how conservatives want to radically change how the federal government works. from expanding the powers of the presidency, to installing loyalist throughout every level of government, to packing the courts with federalist society jurists and granting broader immunity to the presidency and dismantling the administrative state. the super majority that dominates the supreme court just made some of project 2025 ski goals much more achievable.

joining me as roosevelt, he is professor of constitutional law at --, author of the nation that never was. reconstructing america's story. assessor roosevelt, good to see you again. the conservative super majority on the supreme court presents a specific challenge that is not easily undone. generally, justices retire when the person in the white house is ideologically aligned with them, which means we could have a conservative majority for a while, or see a replacement of a couple of justices in second trump term. tell me about this, is this a flaw or just a fluke and coincidence of timing? >> it is absolutely a flaw in the system. when the framers wrote the constitution they weren't thinking about political parties. they weren't thinking about the supreme court as a power center the parties would fight over. and so to them it didn't really

matter how many justices a president got to appoint. but now we have a system where the two parties are fighting to control the court and if you have a rational system, their ability to do that, the number of justices a president can put on the court would have something to do with winning national elections. so the democrats have won five of the last eight presidential elections, seven out of the last eight popular votes. but we have the six -3 super majority and it doesn't make sense in terms of how we staff the court. >> let's talk about the federalist society and its role. it's been remarkably successful over the course of several decades. the federal society has gotten a boost from donald trump and mitch mcconnell who recognize the value in transforming the judiciary and acted on it. tell me about how we should be thinking about the federalist society and its role in our government and politics. >> we should think about the federalist society is a very far ranging, wide reaching influential organization. but out was saying before, we

need to think more about the structure of judicial appointments and structure and in particular of supreme court appointments because the fact that the federalist society grooming these future justices and putting forward presidents, it would it matter so much if we had a rational system for putting justices on the court where it mattered if you want -- won the presidential election, not lucky when a justice died. >> let's talk about the structure, there have been ideas floated, impeachment of justices, some people say that there is a political issue with that and impeachment of the president has become -for-tat, back and forth thing. let's talk about the expansion of the court and your thoughts on that possibility. but generally, i think there are two problems. one is a structural problem which is what i was talking about before, the way we staff the supreme court doesn't work, and term limits is the solution to that.

but the other problem, which is more immediate, we are seeing the attack on the very foundations of our constitutional government. the supreme court is reshaping our constitutional structure. it is going to tear out the bureaucracy, which is what gives stability to the country and the powers the president which means when you get a republican president they're able to do what they want, they are able to implement this crazy maga agenda. so the only way to take the supreme court back in the near term, is actually quite expansion. you need to add justices to get us to the balance we would be at. if we had been appointing justices in a reasonable way rather than the sort of random two retirement death way we have been doing it. >> in fact, compared to other democracies and the size of country, our supreme court is small and in fact relatively new to its workload it is mall. and how do you expand the court and not make an ongoing political situation so in in 10 years we've got 45 members. you have to expand and then engage in some sort of structural reset of the way that the court is done. you talk about expanding the

court in balance and then what happened? >> then we should have term limits. and then we should hope that the other side accepts this as a reasonable way to go forward. because when people say you can't expand the court, you set off this retaliatory cycle of -for-tat, they don't understand we are already in that process. when the senate said we are not going to consider merrick garland, they were strengthening the court, we are not going to consider any obama nominee and they would do it for the kids and if she won too. they are manipulating the size of the court for advantage. and that can be an option, it is not on the table for democrats. >> what does -- the court now, what does imposing term limits required in terms of the work to get that done? >> one of the interesting things, quite expansion seems more extreme but that is clearly

constitutional. term limits is arguable, it is unconstitutional, you might need an amendment but the proposal i worked on most closely, is you say, each president gets two appointments per four year term and justices are in active service for 18 years and after that they rotate into something like senior status, which is what they do now when they retire. >> let me ask you -- >> you put them on regularly and rotate out. >> got it, that is typical of the world. america system is atypical. is there a real explanation for that, or we set up our system under democracy a lot -- before a lot of similar countries that. >> other countries learned from our mistakes. in some sense, our system of appointing justices is casey. the system is taking them off the court is crazy, too. no other industrialized society has chosen like tender. a fixed term like 18 years is enough for everyone else in the world and the states, too.

the state don't do it, our u.s. states. no one else does this. >> i want to ask about project 2025, it is not the first time the heritage foundation put out a playbook like this. not even the weirdest thing in the world that an outside group would do it. it usually is left to either the candidate or the party to put out a platform. but why is this so concerning in light of the fact that the heritage foundation and these conservative thinkers seem to have it willing participant in donald trump. depending on what day, he seems to distance himself from it or not but it does look like a playbook for the next administration. >> yeah, it does. the republicans didn't have a platform last time. and their position now seems to be, we are a party of trump, whatever trump wants. then you ask, where is tim going to go, who's putting the ideas out there? budget 2025 is a terrifying blueprint for an authoritarian future. and if they can succeed in

this, and the supreme court is helping them at this point by weakening the administrative state, if they can succeed it is going to be a very different country, and america you won't recognize. >> we always appreciate your time. permit was felt the third is a professor of constitutional law at the university of pennsylvania law school and author of the book the nation that never was, reconstructing americans a story. donald trump, claims he knows nothing about project 2025 or the people behind it. it didn't take my team long at all to debunk the live. all we had to do was go to the source, trump and his allies are all over this document. democratic senator peter welch of vermont will weigh on the dangers of project 2025 as it applies to another trump residency. in a few moments, president biden will arrive at a campaign stop in northwest philadelphia as he works to reassure the public he is still the best option to take on trump. trump.

the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. "soulmates." soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title.

on friday, somewhat out of the blue, donald trump posted this on social media. i know nothing about project 2025, i have no idea behind it. i disagree with some of the things they are saying and some of the things they are saying are every -- ridiculous and abysmal. anything i wish them luck, but i have nothing to do with them. now from the get go, we all know that wasn't true, so we set out to debunk it. and honestly, i thought there might be a little more like work involved in spelling out a web of connections between donald trump and project 2025. but then i realized, all you have to do is look at the table of content of project 2025. let's literally go through it. the author of each section is listed right here and i'm going to list them. forward, a promise to america written by kevin roberts, president of the heritage foundation, trump is name

checked the heritage foundation several times including a few months ago when he wrote that roberts should keep going and get the word out. chapter one, on the white house office, written by rick dearborn, transformers white house deputy chief of staff. chapter two, on the executive office of the president of the united states was written by russell volk, trumps former director of the office of management and budget. chapter three, on managing the bureaucracy was co-written by former adviser to ronald reagan donald devine along with dennis kerr, a trump nominee for chair of the merit systems protection board and paul dance, trump appointee to the u.s. office of personnel management. paul dance is direct there of all of project 2025. chapter four, the department of defense written by christopher miller, whose donald trump's acting secretary of defense from november 2020 through the end of his term. want me to keep going? okay, chapter five, on the

department of homeland security surety, written by kendra tonelli, donald trump's secretary of homeland security. chapter six, on the department of state written by karen skinner, director of policy planning donald trump's estate department. roger, aggressively antiabortion rights and anti- lgbtq+ rights and served as donald trump's director of office of civil rights for the department of health and human services. well he wrote the chapter on that department. peter navarro, who served as trumps trade adviser is currently in prison for contempt of congress authored part of the chapter entrie. the more you look, the more you find. if you look at the heritage foundation's website you can see the associate director of project 2025 is a former special assistant to donald trump. here's the heritage foundation's press release, quote, former director of white house presidential office and a trump administration is joining the 2025 presidential

transition project, project 2025 as a senior adviser. some of the organizations listed as part of project 2025 advisory board are led by top trump allies like the former trump chief of staff mark meadows who now leads the conservative partnership in 222, and former trump advisor stephen miller who now is president of america firstly go. i literally don't have enough time to list every connection between donald trump and project 2025. what i can absolutely confidently say that donald trump's claim that he quote, knows nothing about project 2025 and has quote, no idea who is behind it, and quote, is -- how do we say in canada, complete and utter bs.

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i thought i was sleeping ok... but i was waking up so tired. then i tried new zzzquil sleep nasal strips. their four—point lift design opens my nose for maximum air flow. so, i breathe better. and we both sleep better. and stay married. joining me is democratic senator, peter welch of

vermont, senate and judiciary committee. thank you for being with us this money. we got a lot to cover with you, given your expertise with the judiciary committee and the conversation i had with professor roosevelt a little while ago. let's get to project 2025 for the moment. the heritage foundation president said we are in the process of a second american revolution which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. which sounds a little like a veiled threat and sounds like it leads into this violence that donald trump brings up all the time. and how do you respond to that, and the weirdness around project 2025? it is out there, donald trump now trying to distance himself from the organization, which is an impossibility because it is a creature of the very people who surrounded and will surround donald trump. >> first of all, there's nothing veiled of that threat, it is a real threat. what we saw with january 6th was the adoption by the trump folks, his supporters, of violence as a tool for political

persuasion. i appreciate you going through 2025 because it is extremely radical. is going to get rid of 50,000 civil servants, to put in an ideologically committed trump -- and the goal is to totally remake in their own image, not a democratic image, their own image, the government they want and that would include supreme court justices to join the radical right. also, you said veiled threats, there's nothing veiled about that, it is an indication, steve bannon said it, that the process will be peaceful unless there's resistance and resistance may necessitate violence. this gets back to why this question of our candidacy and what is going on and what happened with the debate, is so urgent. the existential challenge for this country and certainly for the democratic party is the main opposition to trump, is to

beat trump. we have to win this election. >> stuart stevens from the lincoln project was saying that what might help democrats in addition to emphasizing policies and the fight against the limitations on abortion, is to lean into project 2025 which is a big project because it is 900 pages, it is a lot of stuff. people are not all that likely to read it. but do you think this benefit, as somebody who rents for office, somebody got to deal with constituents, is there a benefit in trying to tell this out for americans and say, your vote, even if it is a protest against joe biden, could end up voting for this very dangerous platform? >> absolutely, project 2025 is the blueprint and that is sort of the government in waiting, if not donald trump is re- elected. what is dangerous, even more than last time is he came in with some people who made mistakes like he put in a

patriot like general mattis and to be in charge of the military, he's not going to make that mistake again, it is going to be yes men and women. and they are laying out the agenda they want from day one and they have been working on a very hard. so they are talking about this, it's very important. winning is the most essential, and we've got a situation now with the party, where we are dealing with the age question, that it was intensified as a result of the debate last thursday. >> and how do you think that should be handled at this point? we understand some of your senate colleagues, mark warner at least of virginia is attempting to assemble senate democrats to have a conversation with the president. how should this play out in a way that allows us to focus on threats to democracy and not go down by the holds for too long. >> here is the situation for us in the democratic party. we love joe biden, no one more than the state of vermont, he

got his highest percentage here. he is very generous and kind. is been an effective resident, the best agenda since lbj. and he beat trump. the question now is, the age question, when age casts its gaze on any of us, we all resist but age will have its way. we all succumb. and we have to have, number one, a commitment to winning. number two, that requires us to address how best we win and what is our best candidate. in the given situation has to be somebody that can win in pennsylvania and michigan and wisconsin. so we, as a party, have loyalty to one another and to the party, but the party has to have , first and foremost, the loyalty to serving the people of this country, and that job, for our party, is to defeat donald trump. >> what is the timeline on this, how long can the democrats afford to continue to have this discussion? >> i think a couple of weeks. first of all it is going to be

present by this decision. he did a great job, and he was elected as the overwhelming selection of democrats to be the nominee and now we have this very unusual situation and unprecedented really, where there is a lot of questions about age, those questions were there going into the debate and they've been intensified coming out. if we're honest with ourselves and acknowledge the american people have a question, we have to deal with that. and the stephanopoulos interview the president, i think was suggesting if the lord almighty came down he would listen but the bottom line here is that it is sunday, and the bottom line, this is not a decision for the lord almighty, this is a real-world decision for real-world people in politics, who care about our country to decide what we think is the best path forward. and it has to be the best path to give us the best chance of

keeping donald trump in project 2025 out of the white house. >> you said it should go on more than a couple of weeks. it will be joe biden decision and the best path forward is the path that will allow to make sure donald trump is defeated. does that lead you to a conclusion as to what decision president biden should make? >> i have thoughts about that but one of the things i do think we owe president biden is respect he has earned, through a lifetime of service, where he has always made his decisions through thick and thin, through personal tragedy and political setback, his decisions have always been what is best for the country. and that is where i hope the president and his advisers, don't refer to the lord almighty, they start listening to democratic voters, they start listening to people in politics and that the senate and the house, and take that into consideration, and take

their time. but at the end of the day, make that decision, on their honest assessment of what is best for the country, to keep donald trump and project 2025 out, way out of the white house. >> senator peter welch, thank you for joining us. democratic peter welch of vermont. president biden is on the campaign trail today and we are watching for his arrival at a northwest philadelphia church. mid -- richard nixon says of an act committed by the president, when the president does it, that means it is not illegal. the supreme court made that statement true but we have not grappled with that radical rolling and what it will mean for donald trump's legal exposure for his dangerous bid to return to power in the fall and for the balance of power that holds the country together. ry together.

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the declaration of independence, the founding document which established the united states as its own democracy. the opening line reads quote, we hold these truths to be self- evident that all men are created equal. and this very first line is perhaps the greatest flaw of the document because at the time it was written, it was a live. that line, and that original documents did not apply to all americans, not even allman. the rights and freedoms afforded by the u.s. constitution were not enjoyed by black people, by other minorities or women. since 7076, the country has evolved through difficult periods to get to where we are now. following the civil war the 13th amendment abolished slavery, the 14th amendment made formerly enslaved people american citizens. the 15th amendment gave black men the right to vote, and in 1870. women did not win the right

until the 19th amendment in 1920. native americans, not until 1924. even then, rights that existed on paper often did not exist in the real world. well into the middle of the 20th century, black people were denied access to the ballot by explicitly racist laws, by terrorism, by violence, many states especially in the south use literacy test, taxes and your tech to keep lettuces and -- black citizens disenfranchise. -- condone violence from groups like the ku klux klan. for decades after reconstruction, the united states did not pass a single civil rights bill. in 1963, after years and years of marches and nonviolent demonstrations, calls to action and undo violence at the hands of police, president john f. kennedy introduced the most comprehensive civil rights legislation the nation had ever in. kennedy said the u.s. quote, will not be fully free until all of its citizens are free. kennedy was assassinated the

following november but his successor, president lyndon johnson under pressure by civil rights leaders and the protest movement took up the mantle. on july the second, 1964, six years ago last week the civil rights act of 1964 became law. the civil-rights act bans the rotation in public places and employment discrimination based on race, religion or national origin. let people and other minorities could no longer be public denied service civilly because of the color of their skin and it later expanded the protection of disabled americans, the elderly and female college athletes. president johnson signed the bill six years ago this week surrounded by civil rights heroes like martin luther king jr., standing behind mlk, hard to make out right now, but ralph abernathy, and to the last -- the last of abernathy is the late john lewis. >> we believe that all men are entitled to the blessings of liberty, yet millions are being

deprived of those blessings. not because of their own failures, but because of the color of their skin. the reasons are deeply embedded in in history and tradition and the nature of man. we can understand without hatred , how this all happened. but it cannot continue. our constitution, the foundation of our republic, for visit. the principles of our freedom for bid it. morality for bids it. and the law i will sign tonight forbids it. >> the civil-rights act is considered the crowning legislation achievement of the civil rights movement and forged the way for two major follow-up bills, the voting

rights act of 1965 inhibited discriminatory voting practices because even though black people had the right to vote, exercising that right continues to be a challenge and the fair housing act of 1968 banned this combination and sale, rental and financing of property, although that problem persists in in the shadows. the civil-rights act of 1964 was a monumental step forward for our nation but even after six years there are political forces at work trying to pull us backward. the john roberts supreme court which now has a conservative super majority gutted the voting rights act in 2013 and eviscerated affirmative action last year. and so far this year, republican lawmakers have introduced 50 bills in 20 states to roll back diversity, equity and inclusion programs. luther king famously reminded us the arc of the moral universe is long but bends toward justice. but we have to remember is that it does not bend by itself. it bends the way you bend it.

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when life spells heartburn... how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. president biden has a full day of campaigning ahead of him. is about to arrive at a church in northwest philadelphia where he will attend a service and deliver a marks -- remarks. he is set to attend an event this afternoon in the pennsylvania state capital of harrisburg. the president is stepping up

appearances in the aftermath of his self-described at night debating donald trump. nbc news reporting his interview with george stephanopoulos did little to encourage democratic lawmakers who fear that biden's candidacy may be beyond the -- beyond repair. five democratic -- to bow out of the race before november. biden has made it clear he's not considering the option, and won't, in his words, until the lord almighty asked him to. for more, joined by democratic congressman max rose of new york who is vice chairman of the -- group and political analyst for msnbc, democratic strategist and director of the masters program, a nonprofit management program at columbia university. thank you for being here. you and i are on this together since friday night so i want to get a sense of what your pulse is, of how things have evolved since friday. and the three pieces of information are friday afternoon he had a rally, friday night he had the

interview with george stephanopoulos, and then the world has gotten to sound off on the whole thing. where are we now? >> joe biden is very convicted about his desire and decision to stay in the race. and is trying to get not only the party but the voters to believe that he is going forward full steam ahead, and we're seeing the fact he's doing rallies, the fact he's going to a church today, i think shows that. the second point is, you are seeing congressional leaders, hakeem jeffries, starting to meet with his members, to try and say, look, given what we have heard, let me hear from you, what do you need and my senses that, my hope is from that meeting that those that may have been on the fence or concerned that he's prepared to say, here there resources and support i can give you two short your race. but the third point, when you look at what is happening on the ground, when you listen to

voters, they are light, this is the guy that brought us to this place, let's stay with him and ride with him, it's not necessarily a huge reason to change in the middle of this race, four months from the general election. if he decides, president biden, that there needs to be a change, and we give him the space to do that, then as a party, let's build cohesion and move forward. again, full steam ahead, because on the other side is far more dangerous. >> max, i was talking to senator peter welch of vermont, and he echoed a lot of this. he said he think it should be joe biden's decision. he said he's got concerns. he didn't want to sort of bring them out in a full throated way as basil recommended not everybody has air their laundry all the time in public but he did say he thinks we've got a couple of weeks to work this out, before this becomes the narrative of the entire campaign. >> no, he's wrong.

it is all worked out, it's done. biden is running. look, the other side, there guy gets convicted on 34 counts and they are out there cheering for him outside the court room. >> they are dress like him, too. >> look, what was strange here is that biden's campaign staff went through their own form of being shellshocked. they were quiet for five days, thank god they have moved beyond that phase, and they are out there aggressively campaigning, putting him out there. they need to do more of that. this is not rocket science. every single democrat i talked to in a position of prominence, desperately wants joe biden to be the nominee. -- the last 3 1/2 years, they want him to be the nominee. they just want him to act like it. and thank god, now they are starting to do that. as quickly as possible, the democratic party needs to get out of this, where they are acting as if they have another option. gets disciplined, stay focused and focus on the

extraordinarily extremist, dangerous candidate that we are facing. >> -- i carry this everywhere i go because to remind people that this is your other option at the moment. this is your other option. basil, you mentioned -- you pointed out that is a difficult thing for the democratic party of today to do, because there was a time the democratic party was that organization that was super disciplined and it is not now. >> it is two things, one, it is not the machine we would normally talk about democratic or even republican political machine to do. it is decentralized, intentionally so so it is more grassroots. but the issue of message discipline is important. as we talk about what is happening on the other side, and donald trump, you would go to o'donnell trump supporter and say, what about his convictions, his felonies, what felonies, what convictions because they are in a cultish manner, steadfastly supportive of him.

we are not that as democrats at all, but that issue of message, discipline is important because what about or wants to here is that you are fighting for them. >> stay here, we're going to continue this discussion because there's more to do here. max rose and basil, we will be right back. right back. nths pregnant.. that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs. the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. ♪ ♪ from chase for business. have you always had trouble losing weight and keeping it off? same. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds.

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forma democratic congressman -- sorry, not former democratic

whisman and neither of them are the guys are looking at onstage. let's reset that, that is president biden, in northwest philadelphia at the mount airy church of god in christ, where he just arrived. my understanding, he is going to sit through the sermon and perhaps make comments in about an hour or so. we shall see how it all unfolds. there's some prayer underway at the moment, and i feel badly talking over it. however, i can't hear it. here in the studio is a former democratic whisman max rose and basil's michael, democratic strategist and program director at columbia university. max, let's talk about this. on one hand, basil said the other day that biden is a grown man and grown men should decide how to present themselves but it does look like as you said, the party and the president have decided they're going to step up appearances, they're

going to put him out in environments where he tends to do well and perhaps curtail the environment in which he doesn't do well. tell me what you think. >> i think at this point, you can't get worse than that debate. biden would actually admit that, which in some ways for the campaign should be, a moment that is empowering. you know, they have been overly controlling, they have taken, many of them are former obama staffers and have taken the obama playbook and applied it to a different politician which is never a good idea. the american people, we have seen polls for joe biden actually improved since the debate. so it is clear that just as voters look at trump and apply a different standard to him, they are applying different standard to joe biden, that is a political superpower of his. so at this point, what has to be forced upon people is two things and two things simply, one, this is an extraordinary wrapper that can be built upon and two, you have a very dangerous opposition right

before you, and you talk about project 2025, so frequently but look at what donald trump has said he wants to do. to lead politics of vengeance, to weaponize the government, to destroy the federal government, to rip away so much of what has been built over the last half- century at home and abroad. that is the choice before the american people and as much of the party can bring focus back to that and did not this ridiculous hand -- handwringing that they have done, that has got to stop and it is imperative the party leadership make sure it happens. >> look, for the last week, most of us don't know what donald trump has been doing because it's not doing anything because he doesn't need to do anything. >> he put out a post denying project 2025. >> if that is all you know, that is a win for him because democrats within the party are talking about joe biden and telling them to get out. that is the problem. that the focus has been taken

off project 2025. one of the greatest things that happened to the campaign in the last week, had nothing to do with the campaign it self. it was to taraji p. henson talking about project 2025 to a national audience of african american viewers. what i would have loved is the campaign to take advantage of that and amplify that because those are the kinds of opportunities of natural moments that can actually make a difference and turn the tide. there is still time and i think that is why it is really important that you see joe biden out there, going to a black church today, but continuing to be on the campaign trail, press forward. don't give people the belief that somehow we are stuck in a place that we can get out and now they've got to figure out a better decision. >> john fetterman has been saying, we were talking about this previously, he really had --. >> he was suffering from an illness, had a terrible performance and had a stroke before the election. >> couldn't have been worse.

and he ended up winning by a much wider margin than anybody. and he has come out as a loud and forceful advocate for the president. debates matter but they only matter so much. what matters just as much is what they are doing right now. so let's not have another debate like that, of course, but let's not go back to a time period after the debate where there was two or four dies -- four or five days where you can find the present. if they go back to moments of silence he will see more members of congress say, he shouldn't run and people will talk this and that. message, message and there will be better days ahead. >> my producer is telling me actually when joe biden -- john fetterman was there. he's being a true leader to biden on a personal level to say, other people can support you, i was in the position you

were in an and came back. literally from the dead. most people in pennsylvania at the time did not think john fetterman would prevail. >> that's absolutely right. ly minutes on our team to link every chapter in the book to somebody who worked with former president donald trump. it is always rely. not an occasional i. >> it is a 180 day plan. not a 20 year plan. your life will