presidency four years from now. he is running for a second term in which he will be 86 at the end of the second term. even if he competently carries out election rallies from here on forward i think he is probably permanently lost a significant chunk of democratic and independent voters. they may still vote for him in the end but i think they're now convinced he is too old and since he will not get any younger i do not think you will unconvinced people about the president's age at this point were already convinced he's too old. >> thank you to both of you, we appreciate it. that is a for me thank you for watching. watching. jen psaki begins now.

>> okay. it has now been 10 days since the first presidential debate, and let's be honest -- those 10 days have felt like 10 years in the political world. the speculation about joe biden's future has been rampant. the panic inside the democratic party has definitely not gone away. i would venture to guess that the conversations you all are having at your worth of july barbecue parties this weekend or maybe just a little more political than they usually are. the questions i know i'm getting in text message from friends and family are two fold. what's going to happen, and what is the best path forward? i'm not going to sit here this afternoon and tell you i know the answer to either question. anyone who tells you they do know for certain exactly what's

going to happen doesn't know for certain exactly what is going to happen. so the best thing i can do is tell you what is happening right now. i mean publicly, but i also mean my sense of what is happening behind the scenes. what is literally happening right now is president biden is campaigning in pennsylvania. he spoke at a church in philadelphia. this morning, both of pennsylvania's u.s. sitting senators along with current and former members of the house greeted the president in what seemed like a real show solidarity, especially in this moment. since the debate, five sitting members of congress have called on the president to step aside, which is not at all insignificant. at this point, only one of them right now, is from a swing district. which means she is vulnerable and has a vulnerable re- election campaign. and that's important to know, too. after lawmakers return to washington tomorrow and in the days ahead. to discuss what they believe is

bidens best path forward. hakeem jeffries is holding what seems like a similar meeting with house democrats this afternoon. just yesterday, a current senior white house official the new york times described as having work with haydn during his presidency, vice presidency, and on the 2020 campaign, said that he should not seek re-election. this person wasn't named we don't know who it is, but i can tell you, there aren't many people who fit that description. it's basically an indication that even longtime loyalists may have questions about his path forward. what's also clear is the president's family, including his wife, dr. joe biden, and his son, hunter biden, want him to stay in the race. what is not clear, is beyond his family and a small group of advisers, how many people have real influence right now in this moment? over the course of the last week, we have seen some polls

that see donald trump extending his lead over the president after the debate. just this weekend, the bloomberg poll and seven swing states shows the gap between trump and biden is as narrow as it has been since last october. it hasn't moved much, even despite the debate. so yes, we are getting a lot of conflicting data points right now. we are consuming it just like you are. it's not an avalanche. which is all we can talk about of elected democrats calling on the president to step aside. that could change. there's not a polling picture in this moment that shows us definitively that the debate was a campaign ender it was in the moment. on friday, president biden sat down for his first interview since the debate with veteran debater george stephanopoulos. i would say it went just okay for the president. in many ways, people watching saw what they wanted to see,

because for some, he looks better than he did at the debate. he seemed much better prepared to make his case against trump, there were also some moments -- not just one -- that did not go well. >> if you stay in and trump is elected, and everything you are worried about comes to pass, i will you feel in january? >> i will feel as long as i gave it my all and did as good a job as i know i can do, that's enough. >> i don't think that's what he actually thinks, but that sounded like something a member of his family told him over the last week or so, and that itself is concerning. that's not the answer democrats wanted to hear from the guy running on how donald trump poses an existential threat to democracy. that's the point of this race. he also seemed a little bit in denial about the state of the race, and maybe confidence was

a strategy going into this. but it is also not ideal for people watching and looking for a sign that he recognized the difficulty of the path ahead. it left us all in a sort of purgatory in the moment. not a home run it all. even if it was a home run, one interview definitely doesn't have the capacity to change the perception out there of 72% of voters who do not believe that biden has the mental or cognitive help to serve. even the white house and the campaign know that. so what's next? tomorrow is going to potentially be a very interesting day in washington when lawmakers return to capitol hill. on thursday, just four days from today, the president is going to have a solo news conference. that will be another moment where he will have to clear another bar to calm nerves and essentially by time. all of these interviews and public appearances will be scrutinized and picked apart and dissected. they will be looked at because

of the moment we are facing, and much harsher than the scrutiny of the convicted felon wannabe dictator that is running against. while that is happening in joe biden pushes ahead and tries to clear these bars and silence concerns he might not ever be able to silence, the clock is ticking. that's just a fact. the election is less than four months away. if something else is going to happen, there's a different path forward, it has to happen soon. and all the while, let's not forget -- the guy who is basically running on abusing power just got a green light from the supreme court to abuse power. the stakes of this election have never been higher than they are right now. when it comes to the path forward, that made be the only thing the democrats agree on right now. joining me now, peter baker and staff writer at the atlantic, mark leibowitz. let's start with you. i just laid out my sense of where things dan on things.

there's a mixed bag, we are sort of in a purgatory in my view in terms of where the broad swath of public officials sit. where's your sense of where things sit right now? i think we may be having a sound issue with peter. let me go -- >> sorry, my bad. i was just saying how right you are. yes, of course it was important. i think you got it right. you have made all the right points. i think were at this point in our nation right now where the president says he is staying in, but nobody believes that the final were necessarily yet. they're still obviously a lot of agitation out there. he certainly did not calm the waters. it did not make things necessarily, you know, as bad as it could have been, but he obviously didn't convince people that he is ready and able to handle the rest of this

campaign. i think you are right to point out how much trump is hanging on this, because it's not the people don't want joe biden. they admire him for the most part. i think you did a good job for the most part. what they're most concerned about is can he be trump? it's a roll of the dice. the other roll of the dice is, if you convince that i can't be trump, it's a roll of the dice on kamala harris or gavin newsom or whoever else might step in. which of those rolls of the dice is a longer odds at this point? >> that is one of the big questions. mark, i read all your pieces, everyone is heard all your pieces whether they admit it or not over the course of the last week. what did i miss there in terms of the state of play? i want to talk about what you said about democrats and how they been in a state of denial. in terms of where things sit right now, what is your sense? >> i think the stephanopoulos interview was actually less than okabe. i think it was actually -- not disastrous, but the people i

was watching with and also talk to in the aftermath, it was really exasperation, especially on -- >> about what piece? >> the piece about i've done the best i can. that was a very putting myself before the country statement. that's probably gotten the most traction. adam schiff had a pretty eloquent thing to say about that on meet the press this morning. he went back to the just watch me refrain that he's been doing for three or four years when people question about his age. the fact is, 50 million people watched him two thursdays ago. since then, they haven't seen them at all. he's been in this very cloistered environment. you know, down this bingo card with a bunch of officials the president has talked to. he did that interview and i will have to wait another week for this nato press conference. it looks like they are trying to run out the clock until the republican convention happens

and they hope people move on from this. i don't think he has placated things at all. >> i know some people certainly feel that your hearing from a lot of them as well. let me ask you, i said this feels like a big week on capitol hill, and the president has been pretty quiet and the people have been concerning critical of that for good reason. but they've hidden behind july 4th. what do you see -- what should people be watching and what are you watching this week? what would trigger that? >> you know better than i do, but lawmakers move in herds. and if the herd begins to move in a certain direction, the rest are going to pile in. i think you mentioned five house democrats or so. i know plenty of others who think that but haven't set it out loud and are ready to say it at the moment arrives, but they are nervous. they don't want to be caught out if that's not the way things are going to go. they are in a position where

either it is possible to convince the president to step down, in which case they would want to go ahead and make that point. what's not going to be possible, they have to stay with him because there's no other choice, and beating trump again is a number one priority, so you don't want to weaken him further if they can't convince them to get out. it really comes down to their assessment of how open he is to their advice. starting tomorrow, when people arrive in washington, we get a lot better sense of where people are. but there's not a lot of people out there that i've talked to among democrats who are anxious for him to stay in the race. some say it might be inevitable. but nobody is really eager about the situation at this point. >> the alternative path is i think a big question here. look, you wrote some interesting pieces over the last couple of weeks. you know there aren't too many opportunities for biden to prove himself before it is too late. he also wrote in your piece that no one is going to feel better in election night if biden manages to nail his

concessions each. tell me what you mean by that. >> what i mean is that he hasn't done anything. a lot of the people i've spoken to have said -- and this includes people really close. i'm not the inner circle, but people we all know that he talks pretty closely with pretty regularly, which is that the period since the debate has been just as alarming, if not more so, than the debated health. because there's one way to instantly get ahead of this, which is to do a daily give-and- take, kind of open-ended freewheeling press conference for several days after the debate. i hate to compare him to trump, but that's what trump would have done. for better or worse, he would have let himself be seen. and you know, sort of let it be out there. joe biden, you know, has given very, very few opportunities to be seen. another thing i would point out as we go into the week is not so much capitol hill, but there could be some pretty high-level reservations around biden weather on the campaign or

maybe on the white house or administration or something. that quote in the new york times please -- people like us look closely at the criminology of this, but it's also in the present tense, so it somebody who works there now. i could give you three people that might fit that description. i'm not going to play that game, but -- >> not many do. >> look, the wall seem to be coming in very closely, and i think after the debate, he had one really good thing going for him, which is time. he seems to of wasted two weeks at this point. >> peter, you had the honor of being an truth social post from trump this morning, which we are showing on the screen right now. i'm not going to read it in full detail because it's a little nonsensical, but what did you think that was about when you saw it ? >> if you notice, please tell me. i don't know. my wife works at the new yorker. we wrote a book on trump called

the divider. you know, the only thing i can think of is maybe he was watching tv someplace and someplace happened to mention that and got him riled up. i don't know why he would say that at this particular moment. i did a piece the other day he probably didn't like where the democrats were up in arms about a nominee that was too old, the republicans are perfectly fine with a nominee who is a felon and aspiring dictator for a day and all these things. maybe that got him. i don't know. if you have an idea, please tell me. >> i suspect that may have been it, but who knows what's in his mind when he truths socially. thank you very much for your time. coming up, the list of democrats calling on president biden to drop out continues to grow, but the president says only the lord almighty can convince him to leave the race. the campaign manager for the biden/harris campaign will join

me after the break. we are just getting started today, and we will be right back. back.

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>> okay. as i talked about before, i worked on three presidential campaigns, and every campaign -- even the ones that win -- have bad days and even bad month. but rarely if ever has there been such a loud call from supporters of a nominee the dropout. as we've been discussing, those calls are far from universal. it's also unclear what the alternative path is, but all of the speculation also means that people inside the biden campaign right now are juggling a lot. it's their job to support joe biden. and during what i bet has been the most difficult time in the campaign, to tell their plan for the path forward. they announced on friday that they will spend $50 million in advertising this month. they also announced june was there best fundraising month of the campaign, which included the $30 million raised in the days immediately following the

debate. at the same time, my guess is the campaign is still fielding lots of calls, questions, and concerns from elected officials and from donors and campaign staffers about the path forward. one of the main people having those conversations internally with the team and externally with supporters is a principal deputy campaign manager for the biden/harris campaign. thank you for being here. as i just noted, you have a lot on your plate in addition to helping run the campaign. let me just start with the president's appearance at the african-american church in the suburbs outside of philadelphia today. i thought that was a very interesting choice. it seemed to send a message to me that he still has a strong base of support. there were cheers and moments, i think there were mainly cheers. is that something we can expect to see more of, going into churches like that, african- american churches to kind of continue to build that's up work? >> absolutely.

it's part of our core strategy. it has been since the outset of this campaign. you saw it early on. it's been a stalwart of who president biden is and his entire political career, and that's what we will continue to do. we know we have to mobilize different communities of color. the campaign for us is still going. joe biden is the nominee and we've got to do everything we can to communicate with voters where they are. for a lot of voters, that is sunday in church. >> we were just talking about this a lot more of that moving forward. let me ask you -- the president in his first big sitdown interview with george stephanopoulos on friday, it played friday evening. i want to play you a clip of it that i talked about this morning. let's play that and talk about it on the other side. >> if you stay in and trump is elected and everything you are whining about comes to pass, how will you feel in january? >> i will feel as long as i gave it my all and it is good a

job as i know i can do, that's what this is about. >> you and i both know it's about so much more than that, and i know that joe biden believes it is more than that. but there's a lot of people this morning who were upset about him saying that. what you say to that? >> i think in the heat of the moment, everything is taken a little bit out of context. >> that was a full context. >> i'm saying that the way it's being interpreted, i think the president is saying nobody's going to work harder than he has to defeat donald trump. he understands the stakes of the selection. he saw charlottesville, he saw trump and what he was doing to this country, and he got into the race. this isn't about joe biden and thinking he's the only person it can be donald trump. he believes deeply he has a better vision for this country, and that is what we are doing on this campaign to make sure we are drying the contrast between those two visions. resident biden does not believe this is about him. our whole campaign apparatus has been about democracy, freedom, and what it means for

real americans at their kitchen tables when they are making those hard decisions about what bills to pay. that's what this race is about and that's where the focus remains. i know what he meant is the fact that nobody's going to work harder than him to defeat donald trump. >> your job is really hard. for anyone who has confusion about that, you are helping run the campaign and you are also a role model to staff when you are in a leadership position. let me ask you about conversations you've been having with donors, elect to officials, others from the outside. you are a person who would take a lot of that. and i know they're taking it. it's not business as usual. what are you hearing from people, generally? we know what's in the reporting, what are you hearing from people who are calling? >> we hear that there is broad support of the president. people want reassurance, and i think that that's okay to say. the president knows that that's okay to say that he has to get out there and reassure people. i did my job is doing that.

but make no mistake about it. this campaign is in a strong position because of voters. our staff draws energy from voters. people elect presidents. there's only one campaign that pulling and apparatus, are is a nearly with 300 staff. this isn't just staff in wilmington, delaware. this is staff across the country in the battleground states talking to voters, and so president biden gets his energy from voters. and the people that we've hired on staff deeply believe in president biden and vice president harrises vision for the country, and that's why they are on this campaign. >> when you're being hit from the outside. let me ask you about vice president harris. i will reiterate very clearly because i know you will, resident biden has made no indication that he is not planning to be the nominee. but donna brazil told nbc news of someone he wants to look past the president of the united states and find someone else, they would still have to come past some of us.

lack women are still the backbone of the company. but she is essentially saying that it has to be paris if it's not biden. do you agree? >> first of all, that is biden, but vice president harris has been a great partner to president biden. president biden knows that. he's going to win the re- election and vice president harris is going to get a second term as vice president. the reason is president biden picked her. before she was vice president, she had a history of standing up to lenders and mortgagors who have been predatory. she's been on the front lines talking about abortion and reproductive freedom. you saw her going around in tennessee. lucy and her go to munich to make the case against putin, the fact that he was committing war crimes. we seem to be a partner any ally to president biden. vice president harrises work isn't wrapped up in the fact that she's black or that she's a woman. she's been an incredibly strong vice president and ally. she has the experience, and that's where her focus remains,

being a partner for president biden as she is been over the past 3 1/2 years. >> if it were harris -- i know it's not right now -- does she get the talents? >> i'm not even going to engage in any hypotheticals. she is on the table with president biden. >> fair enough. thank you for doing what you're doing. i know people look up and rely on you. take you for being here. coming up, she's a clear alternative to replace president biden, as i was just saying even though quentin won't acknowledge it, that's up next.

>> so right now, the first and most important question is, will joe biden be the

democratic nominee? right now, he is going to be the democratic nominee. but there is a second question. who would replace him if he's not? the obvious candidate is kamala harris. she's the sitting vice president, she would be the first black woman, the first asian woman, the first woman period to serve as president of the united states. she would also have a lot of structural advantages. she can tap in the campaign funds. there will be an easier potential transition of staff and resources. she's been a fierce and effective advocate for abortion rights on the campaign trail and she could run on some of the popular agenda of the biden/harris agenda. and we are seeing some evidence of her political strength. in a cnn call from just after the debate, it shows harris is outperforming biden in a head- to-head matchup against trump. but it's also -- and this is a reality, too, a deep bench of democrats will have their own fierce supporters who could raise money quickly as well. some things we've heard from jim clyburn have been sort of emblematic of this dynamic.

clyburn has said he would support harris if biden drops out, but is also mused about a mini primary before the democratic convention in august. so no matter how much this shakes out, one thing is certain. vice president harris is a major factor in any political discussion right now. even if president biden is the nominee. and you better believe the advantages and challenges of having heard the top of the ticket is part of what every ballot campaign is discussing behind the scenes. amy walter's is the chief publisher of the political reporting she joins me now. and i know you said earlier -- it's like, data is important. we all look at it. it's not the only thing. right now, there's not a huge amount of it. for these down ballot candidates, angie craig has come out, others haven't yet. there could be a floodgate. we don't know what's going to happen this week. what are they weighing, in terms of whether they would prefer biden or an alternative

right now? >> what they are weighing right now is that, one, that he drops further behind than he is right now. a lot of them have been looking at their own polling and they are seeing the president with pretty bad numbers in their state or district. still pulling ahead of him, but worrying that, if you combine is bad numbers with maybe a drop off in democratic enthusiasm and independence fleeing overwhelmingly, that ultimately trickles down. i talked to some members who say, it's one thing to have to overcome a 3 or 4 point deficit. it's another thing to have to overcome 5 to 10 point deficit. that's a lot harder. i think that eventually, the challenge for them as they have to answer this question every single day a lips this do you think joe biden is fit to serve another four years as president, or the net next however months he is president. answering that question has been really challenging for them in the wake of that debate. >> as they are looking at this

-- a lot of them have hidden behind july 4th weekend, which i understand, and i've been a part of those in the past. there may not be paid data that tells us this yet, and these campaigns are weighing it. what do they weigh about harris in particular? she would be historic. there's major prose to that. there's challenges to that that i'm not validating, it's just a country we are living in. she is a little bit better among women. what do they weigh as a look at that? >> if you look just at that cnn poll that you pulled up there, biden is losing to trump by a bigger margin than the vice president is. but she is still losing my 2 points to donald trump. where i see this, she sort of starts were biden was before the debate. this is been sort of the challenge all along, which was, how do you get the campaign -- whether biden or harris -- to

get back to the theory of the case, the strategy that they had been working on this entire time, which is, we are going to make this a referendum on donald trump. we are going to make this about the danger the donald trump possesses in a second term. we are going to talk about january 6th and abortion rights and democracy. but you can't talk about that if every single day all the press is asking you about is at all the press is focusing on is how is joe biden doing today? does he have the mental acuity to do it? does he have the physical stamina to do this? again, if you are harris, i think you outlined this quite well in your open, she brings some obvious advantages. plus, she would bring a new vice president. but at a time when people are looking for change, is she enough of a change? not really, because she still is attached to the administration. the other thing that i'm really

curious about, and you're probably seeing this, too, this disconnect between, what are voters thinking, what are democratic activists thinking, and then what are these people in this town thinking? they are not all on the same page. and so i don't think we can say, okay, democrats are aligned by the strategy. no matter which road this goes down, there is going to be a disappointed group of people, and again, if you want to get democrats back in line, someone has to be able to say, let's focus on donald trump, which is, again, what the convention is supposed to be for. >> i also think harris is probably the best prospect yeutter of the abortion case. >> she's been working on it the longest. >> we didn't talk about data poles because we don't know a lot, but there has been a lot of discussion about this. and i think and said this earlier, the strategy may have been project confidence. if you are watching at home, you're thinking, it's a hard path forward.

there been a number of polls. what is actually the state of swing state polling? >> we don't have a lot of swing state polling, but here's my rule of thumb. if we see that right now, the race went from trump up a point or tied to trump up two or three points, in some cases as many as nine points, but i think fundamentally, if you think about where we started in 2020, biden won that by four points. if trump is even ahead by just 2 wings, that means that the environment has shifted 6 points more republican. if you are in a district or a state that biden carried by six points or less, you go, oh -- this is no longer as safe as i thought. even for a state like virginia or minnesota. those are states any 8 to 10 point range of where biden got. but if it's a six point difference, that suddenly becomes a much closer race.

i think that's where we sit. we are in an era now where because of polarization, because of our media consumption, it is hard to have the kind of landslides received in the past. >> the down ballot races and what's happened with these candidates is the most interesting question. no one analyzes it better than you. thank you so much for joining me. i appreciate it. coming up, donald trump knows to know nothing at all about project 2025 which is pretty laughable. i will explain why after we come back from a very quick break. break. told you not to get the other toilet paper. here's charmin ultra strong. ahhh! my bottom's been saved! woooo! with its diamond weave texture, charmin ultra strong cleans better with fewer sheets and less effort. what's everybody waiting for? this? ok hon, we know you're clean. we all go, why not enjoy the go with charmin.

>> with all of the speculation about joe biden's future, it's important to remember what is at stake in this election. why are we even talking about this? this week, the supreme court just expanded the role of presidential immunity beyond what it has ever been in the past ever. and right now, donald trump and all of his acolytes are plotting to push through a radical expansion of executive

power so they can do what they want to do without any consequence. and we know that because they wrote it all down. of course they did. it's literally online. as we've assessed many times on this show, the right week think tank organization gathered hundreds of organizations and laid out a road map for a second trump turn notice project 2025. the president of the heritage foundation said this week in response to that supreme court ruling on presidential immunity that also happened. here's kevin robert. >> in spite of all this nonsense from the left, we are going to win. we are in the process of taking this country back. we are in the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless of the left allows it to be. >> the second american revolution. that rhetoric is clearly dangerous and arranged, but it also sparked some new attention , and not once a potentially wanted on this very unpopular second trump land of theirs.

he said, quote, i know nothing about project 2025. i have no idea who is behind it. i disagree with some of the things they are saying, and some of the things they are saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. anything they do, i wish them luck, but i have nothing to do with it. none of that makes sense altogether, i will just say. but trump is basically trying to pretend he is totally removed from project 2025, which is awkward for a range of reasons, including this. >> the heritage foundation president, somebody else doing an unbelievable job. he's bringing it back to levels his never seen. dr. kevin roberts. >> he is doing an unbelievable job. kevin roberts is the same guy you saw in the earlier clip. remember, a huge contingency is also promoting this plan. like, say, trump l.a. steve bannon. a guy who is apparently in

contact with trump during all hours of the day, including interviews, and who literally waived the 900 page play around in an interview that he did last week with babies the before heading off to prison. many of project 2025 contributors and advisers had very formal roles in the trump administration or campaign. these are people who are also expected to be in trump's white house again if he wins. some of those names you might recognize. others you may just be learning about, like the former director of the office of management and budget who wrote the plans chapter on the executive office of the president. he is believed to have also been a leading contender to be trump's chief of staff, as in the most powerful adviser in the white house. in the meantime, the overhaul of the republican party platform. that's right. the same guy was appointed by the rnc in the trump campaign for the rnc platform committee. so i'm sure trump knows nothing

about these plans. just some kind of coincidence that someone who might be his chief of staff is orchestrating the development of many of these exact plans. just a coincidence. so again, people close to trump road project 2025. people close to him promote project 2025. and don't forget, this plan is largely consistent, almost all of it, and everything trump talks about openly. what trump says out loud it rallies about immigration, dismantling federal agencies, about the expansion of presidential power and a litany of other priorities is in complete lockstep with project 2025. so the man could read a public sentiment to some degree, and he may recognize a public sentiment around project 2025 is becoming quite toxic. it doesn't matter what you call it or what trump says about it, what he does or doesn't know about it or who he wishes well, because these plans are donald trump's plans, and no one should forget that.

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andrew wiseman is a former general counsel at the fbi. both join me now. neil, i want to start with you. we will watch this, we digested it. is of supreme court's decision enhance the dangers of what trump and republicans are clearly trying to achieve the project 2025? >> well, at the top of the show, you call this a green light to abuse executive power, and that's exactly right. it's a shocking, shocking decision. even executive power hawks, a scholar and clerk for justice clarence thomas, agreed the decision is wrong. you can see just how wrong the decision is just by looking at one paragraph. one paragraph in the justices 6- 3 decision joined only by the republican appointed justices said that when donald trump pressured justice department officials to impugn the integrity of the 2020 election to the point where they even threatened to resign, he said

-- the court said that was an official act. that is patently absurd. the constitution cuts the precedent explicitly out of election disputes for the best of reasons. the president has the most self- interest in that. so if that is an official act, and criminal law can't touch that, and there's very little that the president can do to slap the official label act on it and do whatever he wants, and it connects up so much to what you are saying about project 2025, because that check -- one of the main checks on a president breaking the law or having crazy policy is the expert career staff. i saw that firsthand when i was at the justice department. nonpolitical people who just tell you what it is. and the whole thing a project 2025 is to fire all those people and replace them with trump loyalists. that is not the constitution, it's not been in the government since the pendleton act of 1983.

very dangerous. >> they are the heart and soul of government and government service, and virtually every agency, but especially agencies like the department of justice and the defense department, the state department. let me ask you -- and andrew, i don't want you to make this joyful if it's not meant to be joyful, but are there any checks -- project 2025, they want to dismantle the checks that would be in the system, right? and obviously, the supreme court decision give trump a green light. are there checks left in the system? would there be in the system if he were to get a second term? >> i want to start with sort of dour news to underscore what neil said, which is that not only can the president have absolute criminal immunity with his interactions, that includes even creating sham investigations. of course, that is what was an issue here,

where they said that was no off- limits. so just imagine the doj under president trump has a sham investigation of journalists, legal analyst, judges, witnesses, jurors, political opponents, all absolutely immune. then extend that to no criminal liability. if they were to say just go after black and brown communities, after certain religious groups. that is otherwise illegal. were going to go after or not go after crimes committed against people who have had abortions, or doctors who have -- who have reported abortions. all of that, the court has taken off the table in terms of criminal liability. and that is just the department of justice. we haven't even gone down the road of the department of defense and what it would mean for the military. i cannot underscore enough what neil is saying.

to go back to sort of what this election is about, this is so much now because of what the court has done, the court is on the ballot, but also, having a leader who shows self-restraint and character is going to be critical, given what the supreme court has just done. >> no question. thank you both. i think it's important for people to understand. let me ask you before we go about some developments in the classified documents case. they've asked trump's lawyers for a stay after the supreme court ruling. is there a real chance that criminal cases against trump will be brushed away with this ruling? that's what they want, but what's the shot at that? >> not in the reality of this community, but with what's going on in florida is starting to deviate massively for that. the supreme court's decision was just about acts donald trump took while president. and much of the allegation, and the allegation against him with

respect to mar-a-lago and stealing classified documents has to do with stuff he did after he left office. so approaching this is a fair- minded observer, which is an asterisk here, i don't think it would stop that mar-a-lago case from happening, because of this postpresidential conduct. but it remains to be seen what this judge will do. >> always love talking to you. thank you both so much for joining me this afternoon. i got one more thing to tell you all about. we are back after a very quick break. break. (man) switching all the time... it wasn't easy. (lady) 35. (store customer) you're gonna be here forever. (man) i know. (employee) here is your wireless contract. (man) do i need a lawyer for this? those were hard days. representative. switch! now that i got a huge storage and battery upgrade... i'm officially done switching. (vo) new and existing customers get iphone 15 on us when they trade in any iphone, any condition. guaranteed. (man) i really wished you told me sooner. (roommate) i did.

that does it for me today but we are working on a big show tomorrow night. and sabina senator don fadiman fresh off his campaign stop with president joe biden today will be my guest tomorrow night at 8:00 justin. he is been one of the president's most fierce defenders since the president's debate. do not forget to grab your tickets to see me and my colleagues at msnbc live, democracy 2024 saturday, september 7 in brooklyn, new york. scan the qr code on your screen to purchase your tickets today. in the meantime, stay where you are because there is more news coming up on msnbc. several breaking stories. first, president joe biden back