that does it for me today but we are working on a big show tomorrow night. and sabina senator don fadiman fresh off his campaign stop with president joe biden today will be my guest tomorrow night at 8:00 justin. he is been one of the president's most fierce defenders since the president's debate. do not forget to grab your tickets to see me and my colleagues at msnbc live, democracy 2024 saturday, september 7 in brooklyn, new york. scan the qr code on your screen to purchase your tickets today. in the meantime, stay where you are because there is more news coming up on msnbc. several breaking stories. first, president joe biden back

on the campaign trail . also, we are one hour away from a critical capitol hill meeting where democrats -- will democrats standby biden or wilmore ask him to bow out of the race. we will hear from one congressman who said he cannot support the president's bid any longer. plus, the damage that hurricane beryl could bring to texas in just a matter of hours. good sunday from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. we begin with decision 2024 with just eight days to go until the republican national convention in milwaukee, 43 days before the democratic national convention in chicago. president joe biden above the fold on front pages across the country today as he reiterates plans to stay in the presidential race under mounting pressure to step

aside. in the next hour, minority leader hakeem jeffries will convene a meeting of house lawmakers to discuss biden's candidacy. and tomorrow, mark warner will talk it over with senators. today, several democrats are standing behind the president. >> it will be president biden's decision. he did a great job and was elected as the overwhelming selection of democrats to be the nominee. >> i find it insulting the new york times and these media organizations go out front page this is what the billionaire campaign donors feel. to heck with them. >> it is amazing 90% of the conversation is around joe biden's style when on the stage, donald trump was engaged in a level of pathological lying we have never seen before in a debate. >> president joe biden is in pennsylvania. he spoke at a church in philadelphia earlier and will

be at a campaign event in harrisburg later on. at least one republican senator today expressing concern for biden. >> most democrats are worried about biden winning the election. i am worried about biden being the commander in chief for the next four months. we are having a meeting with nato in washington next week. what i would like to see is president joe biden take a cognitive test. >> then you have donald trump who is laying low staying out of the public eye as attention is shifting to his pick for vice president joe running mate. two top contenders say they're still waiting for trump to call. >> have you gotten a call from donald trump? >> i have not gotten the call. will certainly, maybe not the first person i would like to know if that happened but, we will let the media know if i ever get that call. we are just want to work to elect former president donald trump. >> i have heard nothing i know nothing you probably know more than i do about it. former president donald trump

will make a good decision when he makes it. >> we have reporters in place covering all the angles to this story. we begin in wilmington, delaware. what do we hear from biden as the questions continue? >> reporter : you and i spoke yesterday about this new pledge by the biden team to make the president were visible to get him to have more unscripted moments with voters all in an effort to restore lost confidence in his ability to continue to stay in the race and serve another four years in office. we are now seeing the effort to put the questions to bed in battleground pennsylvania. as you mentioned, president joe biden attending the church service earlier today in philadelphia. that is where the fallout from the poor debate performance took center stage. we even saw the congregation wishing the president well, offering him words of support. the pastor, during his prayer

at one point even telling the president not to quote, let anyone talk about your age. he calls him a young whippersnapper which the president laughed and. and president biden himself addressed the following making light of it at one point. >> i know with every fiber of my being i know i only look like i am 40 years old but, have been around a little bit. the bishop and i were talking about that. it is heck turning 40. all kidding aside, i have been doing this a long time. and i honest to god have never been more optimistic about american's future, if we stick together. >> reporter : president joe biden staying behind at the church until just a few minutes ago, staying behind to take selfie does with -- one-on-one and we even heard him talking to them about their personal lives and families.

now, as you mentioned, he goes to harrisburg where he is expected to hold an event with local democrats and union members. all part of the strategy to get the president in front of as many voters as possible. whether that is in person or on television to really hit the message home that he is able to stay in the race and serve another four years in office. i also think it is worth mentioning who we saw great the president when he landed in philadelphia. who he has been traveling with. he has been traveling with the state democratic governor as well as the state two democratic governors all in an effort to show the image of unity. all of the democrats rallying together and all of that comes against the backdrop of democratic lawmakers meeting today and tomorrow, weighing their options about what to do about his continued candidacy if he stays in the race. >> we appreciate you noting the

show of unity. just listening to him there he looked like he was fully enjoying himself at that church service. thank you very much for that,. let's go to capitol hill were in the next our house minority leader hakeem jeffries is said to hold a virtual meeting with top democrats amid calls for president joe biden to step aside. we are on the hill with more. what more do we know about the meeting coming up? >> reporter : to be honest we do not really know much but we do know is that this will be unlike any ordinary meeting. obviously alluding to the fact is is likely the future of the president as the leader of the democratic party, especially in this key moment just months before the election is expected to come up. this is just one of two meetings. top house democrats getting together virtually in about an hour. the ranking members who are

part of the closed door meeting, the virtual meeting. as they have been reluctant to do up until this point, leadership and members in these high ranking positions have refused really to publicly call on biden to step aside to really show their hand in how they're feeling about the future of his candidacy. we know that jeffries along with leader schumer in the senate and other top democrats have spoken to president joe biden in the last week. we know of course we have not heard from many of these top democrats since biden's interview friday night. we did hear from some democrats this morning including adam schiff, a high-ranking democrat in the house. running for senate from california. he had some very interesting and poignant comments to make. >> honestly joe biden will need to consider for his own sake and his own legacy, can he beat former president donald trump is the best to beat former president donald trump. >> can president joe biden win overwhelmingly by any stretch at this point? >> either had -- he has to win

overwhelmingly or pass the torch to someone who can. it is as simple as that. >> reporter : that question was actually a moment from the interview friday when biden was asked if he can beat trump and biden said he would do all that he could to the best of his ability to run a successful campaign and beat the former president. certainly, that stood out to democrats, it raised alarm bells. they want to see biden who can, mop the floor with trump because trump is convicted. because trump has so much baggage we have seen from him since he has left the white house. they believe a strong democrat definitely overwhelmingly beat the former president. what we have seen is that the margin is widening in term of trump's lead over biden in various polls that have taken place. but nonetheless as we have heard from the president he is staying in the race and thus we do expect democrats, when they

return tomorrow for the first time since the debate performance in person on capitol hill, will have a lot to talk about and a lot to think about and certainly this next week very pivotal. >> you are going to in the next hour, keep your ear to the ground and see what you can find out regarding the meeting so we will come back to you when you have info on that. joining me is one of those tragic house democrats that is publicly called on biden to exit the race. massachusetts congressman seth moulton. good to see you. you came in at number 3 or four on friday of ef-5 that have made the distinction calling for the president to step aside. you could not have done it easily, right? here is what you said. now is the time for president joe biden to step aside to let new leaders rise up and run against former president trump. when your current strategy is not working, it is rarely the right decision to double down. president joe biden will not get younger. walk us through how you got to

this position. >> first of all, this was a difficult decision. i think president joe biden has been an amazing president. he has done so much for our country as president for decades serving in the senate before. he has been a close, personal interest to me. i used to go to his house for breakfast when he was vice president and he would coach me on being a new member of congress. he campaigned for me in my district in massachusetts. i had a lot of conversations behind the scenes trying to talk to people in the white house and inner circle trying to convey the concerns that myself and many of my colleagues and constituents share that he may not be the best choice to take on former president donald trump and make sure we win in november. when those behind the scenes conversations did not work i decided it was time to go public with the concerns that so many of us democrats share. >> by the way if i misspoke and

say it could not have been difficult, of course it was a difficult decision, thank you for that. you say the democratic party should look into all viable options to replace biden at the top of the ticket. who would you support if not vice president kamala harris or would it be vice president kamala harris? >> i think this is a very open debate right now happening in our party which is a good and healthy thing for a party to have, these discussions about what our future looks like. frankly, that is a debate americans want to hear as well. whether it is some sort of contested primary or if the president decides to hand the reins to vice president kamala harris who i think many americans have underestimated. i am not sure what the right answers is. i am not an expert on the intricacies of how to delegates work that is sort of the party insider stuff which has never been my focus. whatever the process is, the one thing i want to make clear, i think it will be good for democrats. i think we will attract a lot

of attention to this race. it will showcase this new generation of democratic leaders who bring so much diversity and talent to our party and are doing great things in service across the country. all of that is good for democrats good for our party. for racist up and down the ticket. this is exactly what a party should do when facing a challenge like this. it is exactly what americans expect if your strategy is not working, change strategy. be decisive, show america that democrats can lead. >> why wasn't this discussed in this matter a year ago? president joe biden was 80. we already knew, we talked about his age and the concerns a lot of people might have for that reason alone. when you are talking about this and there could be some sort of small contest and the like.

here is the problem you have a calendar you have to look at. if biden steps aside if harris lets a is not the nominee. there are less than three months after the convention to get voters excited to support the democratic atop the ticket. could a divisive nomination process say at the convention, could that hurt democrats in november? make them look like they do not have all their ducks in a row and are not together? >> i do not think so. i think the party is incredibly united right now behind defeating former president donald trump. that is why we are willing to have these difficult discussions. you asked why this did not happen before? it is easy to be a monday warning for the back. i think there were concerns earlier but, of course, the debate, which really was sadly disastrous for the president put those conversations into focus. the important point is we are having the discussions now. we are doing exactly what a healthy party should do. contrast this with the republican party who has lined up behind the convicted criminal. they do not dare question

former president donald trump. they know his poll numbers are not great and he is almost as old as president joe biden but they are following him lightly. democrats are showing we are a much more vibrant party. we are willing to question ourselves. we are willing to change strategy if that is what it takes to win. at the end of the day because we understand the stakes are so high with defeating former president donald trump and literally saving our democracy, we are going to be united behind our nominee whoever he or she is. >> we could have a conversation for an hour about the questions behind former president donald trump and the republicans who support him and still not come to a logical collusion. let's talk about what is happening now. leader hakeem jeffries is holding a meeting with top democrats to weigh the options before congress returns to congress tomorrow. when lawmakers return to capitol hill do you expect more to call for biden to step

aside? and at what point does the president, who has said quite firmly, he is not quitting the race. at one point does he have to end his bid for a second term?. delay that is a decision the president has to make the decision a lot of colleagues of mine on capitol hill will be making over the next few days is, what is the best way to deal with this problem when so many share my concerns that have not decided to voice them publicly yet. there may be some who say after the abc interview where the president was quite defiant and dismissive of many of the concerns that he's not going to change his mind so it doesn't matter and we should not speak up. there will be others who say speak now and try to make a change while there is still time to have a process to get united behind a new nominee. that will be a subject of intense debate i am sure. >> at the top you said the voters need to decide what to

do. put this to the american people. you have post debate polls right now that show trump widening his lead. what if your constituents told you over the last couple of days since the interview. has anything reassured him he is up to the job of running a vigorous campaign and second term? >> i have not been approached by more constituents on the street. in a couple of years about an issue like i have been over the past 10 days. >> they are worried. >> they are very concerned and they see these numbers. i do not think it helps the president has been dismissive of the poles and say he does not believe the polls. maybe they are off but, we are running against a convicted criminal who incited a mob to storm the capitol. this should be easy. our nominee should be crushing former president donald trump in the polls and clearly that is not what is happening. i remember when i got my first

pullback in my first run for congress. i was only 53 points down, that was not where i wanted to be. i could've debated it in my pollster told me it was statistically impossible to win but what i said let's listen to what the polls say. let's listen to what voters are saying and change our strategy. that is what i did, i changed completely. i believe the data and said we need to take a different approach. that is ultimately how i won that first base. i think that is what the democratic party and president joe biden in particular need to do now. face the facts, be willing to make a change and ensure we can defeat former president donald trump in november. >> i am only sorry i was not a massachusetts resident at the time, i would've voted for you that is for sure. i am glad you one this race. i know this has been difficult for you. a bold statement you made on friday. one ef-5 on the record and there maybe more. those were

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sitting house democrats so far including represented of seth moulton from whom you just heard. with me now, don callaway host of the caucus room podcast along with republican strategist -- and former republican congressman david jolly i am happy to say here in studio. i am happy to welcome my sunday family. it is a serious sunday. let's get to the reaction from you, seth moulton, you heard it all. >> i served with seth, one of the more thoughtful independent minded members. he challenged nancy pelosi in 2018 for speaker, he ran for president in 2020. he is following his own northstar, if you will. i think we will hear a lot of that from members on the hill this week. se knowledge, maybe after the stephanopoulos interview maybe there will not be too many voices. here's my's to take away about what we are about to see.

house members do not matter in this process at all, at all. consider former president donald trump, most of his cabinet has said they will not support them. his own vice president, paul ryan, the speaker of the house. people far more senior than house members in former president donald trump's world have said he should not run. joe biden is not going to listen to house members. i think joe biden has told us he is running. if there was an opportunity for democrats to reconsider this it was during the primary. it was not down. we talked last week i left unsettled from the debate. i am concerned about our sitting president that he said trust me i can do this and he deserves our trust and we owe it to him to say okay, we will go with you. if democrats are worried about the poles, it is a little too late. >> we have heard him say in his family members say, we are not

going to let three and half years be defined by 90 minutes in a debate. john, your thoughts? >> david is correct about a lot of things. there are so many things. let's start with the brass tacks. i think it is probably time for joe biden to step aside given what we are seeing out of the national polls as well as democratic constituencies. not house members but democratic constituencies are concerned about whether or not he can win. i think it is important to distinguish, joe biden's people who have held him up over the last 50 years of his political career, they are not the leaders of the democratic party. i think the democratic party leadership, hakeem jeffries, nancy pelosi, the leaders in the senate will have a real decision to make and i would implore them to do it within the next week. their decision supersedes that of the joe biden camp. i have a lot of problems with what seth moulton just said,

david just said he ran for president and that is true. he absolutely knows how the delegates and insider business of the democratic party works. he knows there is no mechanism to have some type of livable -- livable -- over the next six weeks when my fellow democrats if you try to give it to anybody but the sitting vice president. fundamentally, we believe biden administration has been successful. if you believe that you have to believe the vice president has been an integral part of that. the only reasonable nominee for the real possibility that joe biden has to step aside. >> let me ask you what you later before the interview friday. the nine things he needed to do to quiet the doubters. he must not mention jet lag or having a cold but he said he had a cold. you also said he should speak directly and transparently about his health which he arguably did not do. what kind of score you give him? >> at based -- best, a.d.

he did not have people feeling that much worse about his performance compared to the debate. i want to go to what both david and don said. i agree with david that ef-5 members of the house of representatives do not change the equation for 255 do. it opens up a window, if there are a bunch of members who come out, especially from swing states. the reason it matters, it is the narrative in the media, the narrative about joe biden. here is one of my biggest concerns about joe biden, which i would say about all of us. none of us are perfect but, going forward, every single move that joe biden makes, every single word will be held under a microscope. there is no way any of us could survive that. my concern is, i am not sure

how he will be able to campaign in three months if the last 10 days are any indication. he is not getting better with rest. i hope that any democrat who is looking for him to step down, any elected official will wait until after nato. i do not think we should undermine our president during the nato summit. i think that is very disrespectful and it hurts united states. i think we will see that timing come into play. i just do not know how joe biden survives this. especially the scrutiny going forward. >> on that point let me just ask you as a former republican on this panel, how is it that former president donald trump escapes that kind of scrutiny? what is it that he can lie blatantly and say things about i don't know, batteries and sharks and have everybody clapping and saying yes, we want this guy for resident?

>> i am still a republican i think david is the former republican. >> i thought you were reformed as well, pardon me. >> i have never been for donald trump, not one moment since he came down the steps in trump tower. i have been working against him since that day. i will say this i do know the people in my party and i know what they respond to. most of it is fear. they are afraid of him coming after them. it is inexcusable, i cannot tell you why they do this. in a rational term. you are correct, donald trump makes up lies, schemes, is a convicted felon. and that is not enough. that is not enough. >> let me ask you about senator peter walsh who spoke with my colleague today saying the decision was biden's to make and responded to say that biden said he would drop out only if

the lord almighty would do it. >> bottom line, not a decision for the lord almighty a real- world decision for real-world people in politics and who care about our country to decide what we think is the best path forward. it has to be the best path to give us the best chance of keeping former president donald trump in project 25 out of the white house. >> is there something you can think of to say to joe biden that if the goal is let's keep donald trump out of the white house, how do you convince joe biden that is what needs to be done? you need to step aside? >> joe biden is a man of incredible integrity, very high dignity and he cares about legacy and american history. the proper thing to do is to characterize him as an honorable character in the tradition of george washington, lyndon johnson who, as a senate institutionalist, joe biden has

tremendous respect for the legacy of lbj. this was not my time, i am probably not the guy to carry us forward but i did a good job of bringing this country together in the wake of the absolutely worst president so i will step aside now to give my vice president, who has been a part of my legacy an opportunity to not become the first female president not the second african american president but to extend the legacy of what is right in defending this country from fascism. much of which is planning to be codified in project 20 25. the righteous thing and the legacy preserving thing would be for joe biden to step aside and let the democrats carry forward a new nominee. >> david quickly we will take a look at numbers. we have the latest bloomberg morning consult paul. a very tight race, trump still leading in four of seven key swing states but only pennsylvania is outside the margin of error. trump leads biden by 2 points in the swing states.

the smallest gap since october. 55% say biden probably definitely should not continue his campaign. what you make of the polls and is it a good thing he is not as behind as one would think he might be? i'm looking for silver lining. >> i think it speaks to our rigid partisanship. we are deeply divided and perform as republicans and democrats. the only people that beat donald trump in current polls in this snapshot -- everybody else still continue to trail. i think we are -- in this moment as a country. question of the president's fitness and pulling. on fitness, you can believe your eyes at that thursday debate a week ago you can believe joe biden's word that he says he can do this. if the issue is polling, that is an issue for democrats to figure out if they want to replace their nominee. the one consistent reporting is

that joe biden does not believe the poles or pendants and frankly democratic leaders across the country. he believes his gut and says i am not getting out of the race. that is critically important in this moment. and something that is not been talked about, the mechanics of replacing him. republicans will sue in virtually every state that matters. not all 50 states but they will sue the moment to block access to the ballot. >> like it is a bait and switch? >> ballot access rules are state-controlled. they will choose about 20 states that matter and they will tie this up in the courts and go all the way to the supreme court to say you cannot replace joe biden of the ballot. if they win a couple of critical states, it matters. i am not a democrat as said last week. if you are going to replace joe biden because of the polls, there is a lot of work that has to get done.

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we want to bring you right now, president joe biden who has made an unscheduled stop at the roxborough democratic court needed campaign office in philadelphia where he's addressing. >> i am from scranton. i had to -- southern delaware, northern delaware to scranton. and we came back home but look, even when i was running for senate and each time i ran, quite frankly, not a joke, a little bit in particular got me across the line.

i am not joking. i mean it got seriously organizationally and in terms of fundraising, the whole deal. here is the deal. this election will be about block and tackle. simple basic politics. simple. a matter of how many signs we get out and how many doors we knock on and how many calls we make. look, the reason i got into this is the same reason you did. i used to have a philosophy, we did in our government including with some democrats of trickle- down economics. the very wealthy did well and everybody else would do well and it would trickle down. my dad was a hard-working guy, a fine man. not a lot ever trickled down to his kitchen table. when i got elected i mean this sincerely, i tried this when i was a senator and kept pushing it but now it is policy. you are going to build the economy from the middle out and

bottom up. when the middle class does well and ordinary people have a shot, everything works. we have a strong economy but we have more we had to do. we have to let people know first and foremost, we really care about them. that is basic stuff. we are drawing crowds that have been really big crowds ever since the debate, not joking even that night we had great crowds afterwards. things are moving. they are moving hard. look, the other thing is, people want to know you care. they want to know we care. there's nothing like letting someone know you care like knocking on the door and saying my name is so and so i am here for joe biden, what do you need. there are two things we are working on, three things we are working on to make sure ordinary people get a clear shot. since the election, i will not make this a speech, i promised

john. by the way i have joanne feldman i do not need much else. >> [ applause ] all kidding aside. there are three things, the economy nationwide is great, the economy internationally is great, we are the strongest economy in the world. we are leading the world but ordinary folks like where i come from in claymont, delaware like the three-bedroom home i grew up in, we were not for. but it was always a struggle. my dad used to say a job is about respect, dignity, about being able to look your kid in the eye and say it is going to be okay. everybody deserves a shot. and by the way, we are making progress. inflation is down and we are moving. i am curious what you will hear when you knock on those stores. grocery prices are too high. i just cannot afford it. there are a lot of corporate greed going on. and i come from the corporate

state of the world, delaware. more corporations incorporated in my state than every other state in the union combined. i am not anti-operation. the three things i will do is change the tax system, the wealthy will have to start to pay their fair share. >> [ applause ] >> you know, remember that thing about the 55 corporations paying zero in taxes. they said i could not do anything about it but i did. i was only able to raise their taxes 15%. but we raised more money and paid for all the programs we have. we have cut the deficit, the things we are doing he wants to take away like healthcare and what we are trying to do in terms of what we are doing in terms of taking on big pharma. take farmer is in a position

where they are charging exorbitant prices. if you know anyone who has diabetes ask them what it is like being 35 dollars per month instead of $400 per month. >> [ applause ] >> the bottom line is there is nothing we cannot do if we focus on who we are. we are the united states of america. i mean this, if we work together there is not a thing we cannot do. i have a great team running this point out. the white will be running statewide again. and pennsylvania is a critically important state. critically important. i am counting on you i am heading from here to harrisburg. either way no one has ever had as much organized labor support as i have. >> [ applause ] >> and they are full in.

i am serious. i am the most prounion senator in the history of the united states of america. when they do well everybody does well. anyway, look. i just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you. it is all about touching people, i'll start talking finding out was in their minds. that is the thing i love most. i love the secret service by the way, they are great. they really are. i am not able to do what i used to do. i go down the street in a vehicle before and see a bunch of kids in the school yard waiting i would stop and get out. realistically, i cannot do that anymore it is too dangerous what is going on out there. >> we have been listening to president joe biden at a campaign office headquarters there in philadelphia. the roxborough democratic coordinated campaign office. and there's you have seen president joe biden on display

doing what he does. some could argue, best. i will bring in jeff mason right now to the conversation. white house correspondent for reuters and a good friend to us. your take on the president, the fact that he looks comfortable, he's moving around easily. he is talking candidly of the top of his head. there is no teleprompter there. he is getting some cheers and laughs. doesn't this look like the joe biden we have seen a lot through the last three and half years? >> it certainly is a joe biden his supporters want to see more of. this is a comfortable place for him. holding the microphone, walking around visiting with people. i'm sure once he is finished with his remarks he will start giving hugs and putting his hands on peoples shoulders. that is joe biden he was really an expert retail campaigner. the joe biden we saw on the debate stage was really somebody different and that is what has led to the crisis.

>> how do you juxtapose that. there has been discussion which she's trying to refute you heard them he said my fault, my fault, he said that five times so as not to put the blame on anybody. it would stand to reason he had spent six days at camp david, there was so much in his brain it will be hard for anybody to try to come up with -- particularly if you're trying to counter somebody who has just like. >> and yes, that is a job and that is what democrats were so disappointed. he needed to be able to do that and the argument, especially those asking him to step aside is that a younger person would have been able to do that better. his big challenge is to show to the doubters and american people and certainly his democratic voting base that he still has it. he just had a bad night and try to convince them that is all it was. >> did you see senator john fetterman wearing a hoodie,

what else. senator bob casey is campaigning with him as well. give me a sense of the mood inside the white house. since friday since the interview. the president, at that point was defiant, dismissive about the concerns about his health and the chances he has of getting reelected. how did that sit generally and overall? >> i think as far as the debate is concerned i think -- >> i met the interview. >> i have not spoken to anyone about the interview but i think, probably, the people who work for joe biden want him to win and what him to do well and are deeply disappointed to see the man that they care so much about going through what he is going through right now. and i think they also generally want to beat former president donald trump. there is for -- >> in what order? more caring about him but we

want to beat former president donald trump? >> i think that depends a little bit on which level of staffers we are talking about. his inner circle sees those two things as not mutually exclusive. he care a lot about joe biden and believe he is the right person to beat former president donald trump. there is an attitude or at least a feeling of grievance among some people in the biden camp including sometimes i think the president himself that he has been under estimated. that he does not get the credit he deserves for having beat former president donald trump in 2020. they see a little bit of this sort of reaction from the democratic party and from some democratic heavyweights as a continuation of that. they feel the same way about the media. i think that is probably hurt them. if we are talking about the media, i'm not the first person to say if he had been doing for press conferences and had more exchanges with reporters and he traditionally does he might've been a little sharper on the debate stage. >> there we see congressman --

a good friend to this show, pennsylvania native. let me ask you about what comes tomorrow. we know hakeem jeffries, or materially is scheduled to have the chat with lawmakers. we notified jik have called publicly for him to step aside. will there be more tomorrow? and what will it take for biden to heed those calls? a man who has spent 30 years on capitol hill in his prior decisions. we know he has tremendous respect for the senate in which he served for so many years. the opinion of his former colleagues, how much will that matter to him if they do unite, potentially around mark warner? >> i think it would be an especially difficult blow for him if a large handful of senators end up calling on him

to step aside. because of what you just said. he still refers to his 36 years in the senate and talks about his time there. he will use things from his time as a lawmaker like i want to take a moment of personal privilege. those phrases, that institution, those people and that institution are a part of his dna. i think if a bunch of his friends and colleagues calling him to step aside it will be a major blow. that said i do not think it means he would automatically listen. how long does he have indeed? how long does the party have? they do not have that long. if there is going to be a change, it needs to be in the coming weeks. based on the map and the convention. that does not mean they cannot make a change after the convention. i wrote a story about that explaining about how the logistic work if you steps aside after or before the convention. if he doesn't after then it is just the dnc that would vote. doing it before would at least give us a larger sort of

democratic sense of the process. >> thank you for being here. h. as you predicted, he is getting close to those gathered there those that are working for him. there goes a hug and a kiss on the cheek most likely. jeff mason, thank you so much. . ) when life spells heartburn... how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief.

50 years ago in the wake of watergate and president richard nixon using the justice department to go after his

perceived enemies, rules were established to prevent that from happening again. but on monday, the supreme court ruling on presidential immunity officially changed the rules. former doj officials who worked under donald trump are sounding the alarm about how former president donald trump can legally weaponize the department against his enemies if you returns to the oval office. joining me the author of the new book out soon, where tyranny begins, the justice department, the fbi and the war on democracy. the senior executive editor for national security here at nbc news, david -- retribution and revenge are not new concepts for former president trump who has threatened and tried to weaponize the government to target political enemies but now it appears he will be legally protected to do so. you spoke with doj officials about the supreme court ruling, what did he tell you? >> they were concerned. these are officials who served under trump in his first term and he resisted some of the

things they felt trump was pressuring them to do. they felt he was tried to get the doj to essentially investigate his enemies and go easy on his allies. they feel this decision, which granted absolute immunity for the president's interactions with the justice department went too far. one of them specifically wanted out the more moderate opinion by justice amy coney barrett. she said one of the things, for example a discussion between an attorney general and the president and it involves committing what is clearly a crime that should be something that can be used by investigators. the majority opinion by chief justice roberts said nothing can be used, no communication whatsoever between a president and attorney general can be used in a criminal investigation. >> that was a good point you made. were there other things that stood out, this could happen,

that could happen and that would be a serious problem? >> the other one said that trump will pursue a similar strategy to the one he did in his first term if he is reelected and that is public pressure. tweets, public attacks by his supporters. one of the officials who did do something took a stance that upset the president and was publicly attacked by him, he feared for his own safety and the safety of his family. that is the question. the new ruling puts it on the backs on the conscious of doj officials and fbi officials the doj overseas the fbi. that they must stand up to a president who asks them to do something illegally. i spoke to an fbi official who says he thinks fbi agents will resist this. they immunity granted by the supreme court only extends to the president himself. if the fbi does something illegal at the behest of the

president, the fbi agent can face prosecution. i want to be fair, a couple of other former doj officials who say they did not have a problem with the ruling. they feel it is important the president have a power to direct the attorney general as they like and the voters can hold the president accountable if he does something improper when his term ends. >> what would be the overall effect on civil servants? can they refuse to carry out orders from donald trump if they know the orders are not appropriate or illegal for them? how hard is it for a civil servant to defy the order of a president in doing so, do they risk their career? >> they do risk their career. there were people who removed for resisting pressure from trump and there were fbi officials involved in the trump russia investigation were fired. angela mccabe lost his pension. it was a clear signal to civil servants about how serious the

threat was. again, he is a very astute politician and was an astute president. in the mueller investigation there was not evidence of clear moments when trump ordered people to do things that were not legal. he is more likely to signal people to signal to his supporters what they should do. that is concerning, very concerning to people worried about a second trump term. former doj officials and others who are less worried about it. trump has talked about getting rid of protections for civil servants. it is hard to fire them, they are supposed to be nonpartisan and they should be nonpartisan. they should serve republican and democratic presidents alike. trump has talked about getting rid of those protections. right now the president appoints about 3000 people. he would like to appoint tens

of thousands of civil servants to change the system and get the president that power as well. >> i believe you are quoting from the heritage foundation's project 2025 which the former president says he knows nothing about. that having been said, i thank you very much. let me reiterate the book you have coming out soon. is where tyranny begins, the justice department, the fbi and the war on democracy. that will be exciting, come back and see is when the book is out. we have more to talk about. ab ya know, if you were cashbacking you could earn on everything with just one card. chase freedom unlimited. so, if you're off the racking... ...or crab cracking, you're cashbacking. cashback on flapjacks, baby backs, or tacos at the taco shack. nah, i'm working on my six pack. switch to a king suite- or book a silent retreat. silent retreat? hold up - yeeerp? i can't talk right now, i'm at a silent retreat.

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