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okay, now 10 days since the first presidential debate. those have felt like 10 years in the political world, maybe to all of you watching. the speculation about joe biden's future has been rampant, panic inside the democratic party has not gone away. i will venture to guess that the conversations y'all are having at your 4th of july barbecues are maybe more political than they usually are. the questions i know i am getting from text message from friends, family, are two fold, what is going to happen? what is the best path forward i am not going to sit here and say i know the answer to either. anyone who tells you they do know for certain, exactly what is going to happen, doesn't know for certain exactly what is going to happen. so the best thing i can do is tell you what is happening right now. i mean publicly, but i also mean my sense of what is happening behind the scenes.

what is literally happening right now is president biden is campaigning in pennsylvania, key state for him. i mean, moments ago, you can see it there, he spoke at a church in philadelphia. this morning, both of pennsylvania's sitting u.s. senators along with current and former members of the house greeted the president and would seem like a real show of solidarity, especially in this moment t. is important to note that since the debate, five sitting members of congress publicly called on the president to step aside, which is not at all insignificant, at this point one of them, only one right now, minnesota congresswoman, angie craig, is from a swing district. she is vulnerable. important to note, too, but the list could get longer, after lawmakers return to washington tomorrow, and in the days ahead. senator warner is organizing a group of democratic senators to meet this week to discuss what they believe intieden's best path forward. leader jeffries is holding what sounds like a similar meeting with house democrats this

afternoon. just yesterday, a current senior white house official who the new york times described, importantly, is having worked with biden during his presidency, vice presidency and on the campaign pain, said he should not seek reelection, the person wasn't named. i can tell you there aren't too many people who fit that description r. it is basically an indication even long-time loyalists may have serious doubts about his path forward. it is clear from reporting that the president's family, which is important, including his wife, dr. jill biden, and his son, hunter biden, want him to stay in the race. what is not clear is beyond his family, and small group of advisors, how many have influence in the moment. in the course of the last week it is, you should know, we have seen polls that show donald trump extending his lead over the president after the debate. some polls do show that. this weekend a bloomberg poll in

seven swing states show the gap between trump and biden is as narrow as it has been since last october, meaning the race has been pretty-- hasn't moved much, despite the debate. yes, we are getting a lot of conflicting data points right now. we are consumeing it all like you are. overall, it is not an avalanche, at least not yet, in this moment, which is all we can talk about, of elected democrats calling on the president to step aside. that could change. there is not a polling picture in this moment that shows definitively the debate was the campaign ender, it might have seemed like in the moment. on friday, president biden also sat down for his first interview since the debate with george stephanopoulos, i watched it, i have watched a lot of these y. have prepped him and others, i would say it went okay for the president. in many ways people watching saw what they wanted to see. for some, he looked better than he did at the debate. he did, he was more clear, seemed better prepared to make his case and the case against

trump. but there were some moments, not just one, that did not go well. >> if you stay in and trump is elected, everything you are warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in january? >> i will feel as long as i gave it my all and i did as good a job as i know i can do, that is what this is about. >> now, i know, and i don't think that is what he actually thinks but it sounds like something a member of his family told him the last week or so, that is a bit concerning. it was definitely not the answer, lets be clear, democrats wanted to hear from the guy running on how donald trump poses a threat to democracy, that is the point of this race. he seemed a little in denial about the state of the race and maybe confidence was a strategy go nothing to this, project confidence about the path forward. but it is not ideal for people watching and looking for a sign he recognized the difficulty of the path ahead. overall, when the interview ended, it left us all in this

sort of purgatory for the moment, it was better than debate, not a home run at all. even if it was a home run, one interview doesn't have the capacity to change the perception out there of 72% of voters according to cbs poll, who do not believe that biden has mental or cognitive health to serve. the white house and campaign know that. so what is next? as i said, tomorrow is going to potentially be a very interesting day here in washington, when lawmakers return to capitol hill. then on thursday, just four days from today, the president is going to have a solo news conference after the nato summit. that will be another moment when he will have to clear another bar, to calm nerves and buy time. all of these interviews and public appearances will be scrutinized and picked apart and dissected. they will be looked at through a lens that is harsher than most candidateerize looked at because of the moment we are facing and much harsher that the scrutiny than the want to be dictators he

is running against. biden pushes ahead and tries to clears the bars and silence concerns he mht not be able to silence, the clock is ticking. that is just a fact. the election is less than four months away, the democratic convention is seven weeks away. if something else is going to happen, if there is a different path forward, it has to happen soon. all the while, the threat of donald trump is only growing. lets not forget the guy basically running an abusing power got a green light from the supreme court to abuse power. the stakes of this election have never been higher. that may be about the only thing democrats agree on right now. joining me now chief meteorologist white house correspondent and staff writer. peter, i laid out my sense of where things stand on things. there is a mixed bag, we are sort of in a purgatory, in my view, in terms of where the broad swath of public and

effected officials sit. what did i miss? what is your sense of where things sit now? >> i think we may be having a sound issue with peter. let me go, we will-- >> sorry, my bad. >> yes. >> it is okay. proceed. >> i was just saying how right you were, yes, of course it was important. yeah, i think, look, you have it right. made all the right points, in this spirit of animation, the president is saying-- george stephanopoulos interview did not calm the waters, it didn't make things necessarily as bad as they could have been but they didn't convince people he ready is able to handle the rest of the campaign. i think you are right to point out how much trump is over hanging on this. it is not just people do or don't want biden. democrats like joe biden him, they admire him for the most

part, they think he did a good job for the most part. what they are most concerned about is can they beat trump? that is one thing they don't know. roll of the dice. the other roll of the dice is if you are convinced biden can't beat trump, roll the dice on kamala harris or gavin newsom or whoever else, the question is rich of the rolls of the dice is the longer odds at this point? >> that is the big question. one of the big questions. i want to talk about that. mark, i read your pieces, everybody has read all your pieces, whether they admit it or not, over the course of the last week. what about you? what did i miss there in terms of the state of play? j want to talk about what you said about democrats and how they are kind of been in a state of denial. in terms of where things sit now, what is your sense? >> my sense, i think the stephanopoulos interview was less than okay. i think it was actually, not disastrous but i think, the people was watching it with, but talked to in the media aftermath, it was real exaspiration, i think on a

couple answers. >> what piece? >> the piece about, i have done the best i can. that was a very, putting myself before the country kind of statement. people have talked about, probably gotten the most traction, adam schiff had eloquent speech. the just watch me, the fact is they did watch him. they watched, 50 million people watched and since then they haven't seen him at all, basically. he has been in cloistered environment. he called this person and that person, like going down a bingo card of elected officials that the president has talked to. the fact is he did that interview and then we have to wait another week for this nato press conference. so, it looks like they are trying to run out the clock, until the republican convention happens and people, i think they hope move on from this. but i don't know, i don't think he playicated things at all. >> i know some feel that, i know you are hearing from a lot as well. let me ask you, both of you,

peter, let me start with you. i said this feels like a big week on capitol hill. the president has been quiet, i know people have been concerned and critical of that for good reason. a lot of membervise been pretty quiet too. they have hidden behind july fourth, what should people be watching and what are you watching this week? could the flood gates open? what would trigger that? >> you know, better than i do, lawmakers are moving herds, right? if the herd begins to move in a certain direction, the rest pile in. i think you mentioned five house democrats said he ought to step aside. i know plenty others who think that but haven't said it out loud and are ready to if the moment arrives but they are nervous, they don't want to be caught out if that is not the way things are going to go. they are in a possession, either it is possible to conconsistence the president to step down, they would want to make the point. if not possible, they realize in their view they have to stay with him because there is no other choice, and beating trump

again is the number one priority, they don't want to weaken him further, if they can't convince them to get out. it really comes down to their assessment of how open he is to their advice. i think you right, this week when people ap rive in washington, we will get a lot letter sense where things are, but there is not a lot of people out there that i talk to among democrats who are anxious for him to stay in the race. some think he may be inevitable and not necessarily convinced kamala harris could do it. but nobody is really eager about this situation at this point. >> yeah, i mean the alternative path, i think a big question here, we will talk about that in show. mark, you wrote interesting pieces, you note there are not too many more opportunities for biden to prove it. you wrote no one will feel better if biden manages to nail his concession speech. tell me what you mean by that. >> >> what i mean is that he hasn't done anything, i think, a lot of people have spoken to, this

includes people really close, not the inner-inner circle, but people we know that he works cloisly with and talks closely with, which is that the period sense the debate has been just as alarming, if not more so, than the debate itself because there is one way to instantly get ahead of this, which is do daily given and take free ended press conference several days after the debate y. hate to compare him to trump but that is what trump would have done. for better or worse would have let himself be seen. and, you know, let it be out there, i mean, joe biden, you know, has given very, very few opportunities to be seen. i think another thing i would point out next coming days as we go into the week, is not so much capitol hill but, i mean, there could be pretty high-level resignations around biden, whether on the campaign or maybe in the white house, the administration, something. that quote in the new york times piece that, again, people at us

look closely at the criminology but that is a tiny-- it was in the present tense, someone who works there now. it is, i mean, look, i could give you three people that might fit that description. not going to play that game. >> not many do. >> not many do. but, look, this is the-- walls seem to be coming in closely. i think after the debate he had one good thing going, time, he seems to have wasted almost two weeks at this point. >> let me ask you, peter, all caps sweet from trump. i am not going to read in full detense because it is nonsenseical. what did you think that was about? i think i know what it was about. >> you know, please tell me. my wife and i, my wife works for new yorker, we wrote a book on trump called "the divider." maybe he was watching tv some place and some place mentioned that and got him riled up. but i don't know why he would

particularly say that at this moment. you know, i did write a piece the other day i pointed out while the democrats are up in arms about nominee they think is too old, republicans are fine with a nominee who is a convicted felon and a sex abuser, aspiring dictator, maybe that got him. if zow an idea, please tell me. >> i suspect that may have been it. but, who knows what is in his mind when he is truth socialing. peter and mark, thank you so much for your time this afternoon. i really appreciate it. coming up, the list of democrats calling on president biden to kick out continues to grow but the president said only the lord almighty could convince him to leave the race. d convince him to leave the race. we are just getting started today and we will be right back. d we will be right back

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worked on three presidential campaigns and every campaign, even the ones that win, havebed days and even bad months. rarely, if ever, has there been a loud call by supporters to drop out. those calls are far from universal, it is not clear what the preferred alternative path is, but the speculation means the people inside the biden campaign are juggling a lot. it is their job to support joe biden. during what i bet has been the most difficult period of the campaign to date, to tell the story of their plan for the path forward. over the course of the last week they announced friday they will spend $50 million in advertising this month, they announced june was their best fundraising month, which included $30 million raised in the days immediately following the debate. at the same time my guess is the campaign is still fielding lots of calls, questions, and concerns from elected officials,

donor s and one of the main people having the hard conversations internally with the team and externally with supporters is quentin fulks. he joins me now. you have a lot on your plate in addition do helping run the campaign. let me start with the president's appearance at the african american church in the suburbs of, i think outside of philadelphia today. i thought it was a very interesting choice, it seemed to send the message to me he has still, a strong base of support. it was, there were cheers, at moments i couldn't tell if there were boos, i think mainly clears. is that something we can expect to see more of? like going into churches like that? african american churches, to kind of continue to build that support? >> absolutely. it is part of our core strategy, it has been since the outset of this campaign. you saw early on when the president went to south carolina and visited mother emanuel, it has been a who president biden is in his career and what we

will continue to do. we know we have to mobilize communities of color, different constituencies and the campaign for us is still going, we are forging ahead because joe biden is the nominee and we have to do everything we can to communicate with voters where they are, for a lot that is sunday in church. >> people would like to see a lot more, lot more, lot more of that moving forward. the president did his first big sit-down interview with george stephanopoulos friday, it played friday evening. i want to play you a clip of it that i talked about a little bit this morning. lets play that. >> if you stay in and trump is elected, and everything you are warning about comes to pass, how will you feel in january? >> i will feel as long as i gave it my all and i did the good a job as i know i can do, this that is what this is about. >> i mean, you and i both know it is about so much more than that, i know joe biden believes it is more than that. there a lot of people, adam schiff, upset about him saying

that. what do you say to them? >> i think that in the heat of the moment everything gets taken a little bit out of context. >> that was the full context. >> well i am saying the way it is being interpreted, i think the president saying nobody is going to work harder than he has to defeat donald trump. he understands the stakes of the election. look back why he ran the first time, he saw charlottesville, he saw trump and what he was doing, and he got in the race. this isn't about joe biden thinking he is the only person that can beat donald trump. joe biden believes he has a better vision for the country and that is what we are doing on this campaign to make sure we are drawing the contrast between those two visions and president biden does not believe this is about him, and our whole campaign apparatus since the moment we have announced, has been about democracy, freedom, and what it means for real americans at their kitchen tables, when they are making those hard decisions about what bills to pay, child care, that is what this race is about. that is where the president's focus remains and i think what he was saying, i know what he

meant, is the fact nobody is going to work harder than him to defeat donald trump. >> let me ask you, your job is really hard, you are helping run the campaign, you are a role model to staff when in a leadership position. let me ask you a conversations with donors, elected officials, others from the outside, because you are a person that could paycheck a lot of that. we know they are going, not business as usual. how much of your time is that consuming? what are you hearing from people, generally? we see what is in the reporting but what are you hearing from people calling? >> i think we hear that there is support for the president, people know he has had their back, people want reassurance, i think that is okay to say. the president knows that is okay to say, he knows he has to reassure. make no mistake, this campaign is in a strong position. we are in a strong position because of voters. you mentioned our staff. our staff draws energy from voters. voters are the people who elect presidents, there is only one

campaign thatz is building apparatus with field offices, ours nearly 300 with staff, over a thousand across the battle ground states . this isn't just in wilmington, delaware, this is staff across the country talking to voters. president biden gets his energy from voters. our campaign gets our energy and enthusiasm from voters and the people we hired on staff deeply believe in president biden and vice president harris's vision and that is why they are on the campaign. >> it is quite bonding when you are being hit. >> yeah. >> let me ask you about vice president harris, i know president biden made no indication, donna brazil told nbc use if somebody wants to go past or look pass the vice president and find someone else they zd to come back with some of us, black women are the back bone of the country. she is saying it has to be harris if not biden. do you agree? >> first of all, it is biden,

but vice president harris has been great partner to president biden. president biden knows that. president biden is going to win reelection and be the president of the united states and vice president harris will get a second term as vice president and the reason that is it president biden picked her, but because before she was vice president she had a long history och standing up to banks and going after mortgages, lenders being predatory. since he has been vice president she has been on the front lines talking about abortioner and she has been across the country, in tennessee, we have seen her go to munich to make the case against putin, the fact he was committing war crimes. we have seen her be a partner and ally to president biden and she looks forward to continuing to do that. i want to make one point, vice president harris's worth isn't wrapped in the fact she is black or a woman, she has been incredibly strong vice president and ally. she has the experience and that is where her focus remains on being a partner to president biden as she has been for every accomplishment they have gotten done the past three and a half years. >> though it is biden, if it were hair, i know it is not right now, does she get the talents of quentin fulks working

for her? >> i am not going to engage in hypotheticals, she has the talent of quentin fulks working for her because he is on the ticket with president biden. >> fair enough. thank you for doing what you doing. it is important and i know people look up to and rely on you. coming up, she is clear alternative to replace president biden, as i was just saying, even though quentin wouldn't entertain it. amy walter is standing by, i will ask her next. i will ask her next. (man) have you seen my ph- ahhh! (woman) oh no! (man) woah, woah, woah! (woman) no, no, no, no, no! (woman) great. (man) ughhh. (man) dude. (vo) you break it. we take it. trade in any phone, in any condition. guaranteed. and get a new iphone 15 with tons of storage, on us. (woman) oh yeah. only on verizon. [introspective music]

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right now the first and most important question is will joe bide bine the democratic nominee? right now he is going to be the democratic nominee. but of course there is a second question, and that is who would replace him if he is not? the obvious candidate is kamala harris for a range of reasons, the sitting vice president, her nomination would be historic,

first black woman, first asian woman, first woman, period, to serve as president of the united states. lot of structural advantages, she can tap into campaign funds, easier transition of staff and resources, she has been fierce and effective advocate for abortion rights and as vice president could run on some of the popular agenda of the bind/harris administration. we are seeing evidence of her political strength. in a poll from after debate it shows she is outperforming biden in head to head against trump. there is a deep bench of democrats who have fierce supporters who could raise money quickly as well. some things we heard from jim clieburn have been emblock attic of this, he said he support harris if biden drops out but mini primary before the convention in august, i have no idea what that could look like.

no matter how much this shakes out, vice president harris is a major factor in any political discussion right now, she just is. even if president biden stays and is nominee, you better believe the advantages and challenges of having her at the top of the tick ht is part of what every ballot campaign is discussing behind the scenes. amy walters and editor and chief and publisher joins me now. i know you said earlier, it is like, it is important, we look at it, it is not the only thing. right now there is not a huge amount of it, but i did want to ask to help people understand, for down ballot candidates, angie craig has come out, others haven't yet, they therecould be a flood gate. we don't know, what are they weighing in terms of whether they would prefer biden or an alternative right now? >> what they are weighing right now, i think, is, one, that he drops further behind than he is right now, lot of them have been looking at their own polling and they are seeing the president with pretty bad numbers in their

state or in their district. >> many polling ahead of him. >> still polling ahead but worrying if you combine his bad numbers with maybe a drop off in democratic enthusiasm and independents fleeing overwhelmingly, that trickles down. i have talked to some who say it is one thing to have to overcome a three or four-point deficit. it is another thing to have to overcome five to ten-point deficit. that is a lot harder. i think fundamentally the challenge is they have to ansfer this question every single day, do you think joe biden is fit to serve another four years as president? none the less the next x number of months he is president, and answering that question for them has become really challenging in the wake of that debate. >> as they are looking at this, i mean, a lot have hidden behind july 4th weekend, i understand and i have been a part of those in the past. as we are looking, there might not be data that tells us and

the down ballot campaignerize weighingpaigns are weighing it. it is the country we are living in, she has a little bit better among women according to some polls but what do they weigh? >> i guess if you look at the cnn poll you put up there, so, biden is losing to trump by a bigger margin than the vice president is. but she is still losing by two points to donald trump. basically, where i see it is she sort of starts where biden was before the debate. this has been the challenge all along, which how do you get the campaign, whether biden or hair, to get back to the theory of the case, the strategy they had been working on this entire time, which is we are going to make this a referendum on donald trump, we are going to make about the danger that donald

trump possesses in a second term? we are going to talk about january 6 and abortion rights and democracy, but you can't talk about that if every single day all the press is asking you about is, and all the press is focusing on is how is joe biden doing today? does he have the mental acuity? the physical stamina to do this? again, if you are harris, i think you outline this quite well, she brings some obvious advantages, plus she would bring a new vice president, everybody loves new, but at a time when people are looking for change, is she a change? not really, she is attached to the administration. the other thing i am really curious about, you are probably seeing this, the disconnect, what are voters thinking? what are democratic activists thinking? >> this is the question. >> and then what are these people in this town thinking?

they are not all on the same page. so i don't think we can say, okay, democrats are aligned by this strategy. no matter which road this goes down, there is going to be a disappointed group of people, and somebody, again, if you want to get democrats back in line, someone has to be able tosay lets focus on donald trump, which is, again, what the convention is supposed to be for. >> that is their intention. i think harris is probably the best prosecutor of the abortion case in the administration. >> she has been working on it the longest. >> let me ask you quickly, we didn't talk data and polls because we don't know a lot but there has been discussion, especially after abc interview, i think, and i said earlier, the strategy may have been project confidence but if you are watching at home you are like, wait, a hard path forward. there was a bloomberg polls, what is the state of swing state polling? >> we don't have lot of swing state polling but here is my rule of thumb, if we see on

national polling the race went from trump up a point or tied, to trump up two or three points, in some cases as many as nine points, but i think fundamentally if you think about where we started in 2020, end of that election, biden won by four points, if trump is even ahead by just two points that means the environment has shifted six points more republican. if you are in a district or state that biden carried by six points or less, you go, this is no longer as safe as i thought, even virginia or minnesota, those are states, you know, in the 8-10-point range of where biden got, but again, if six-point difference, that becomes a much, much closer race. i think that is where we sit. we are in an era now where, because of polarization, because of our media consumption, it is hard to have the kind of landslides we have seen in the past. >> very close, i mean, the down

ballot races and what happens with the candidates to me is the most interesting question. >> it is. >> no one analyzes it better than amy, thank you so much for joining me. coming up, donald trump claims to know nothing, nothing at all, about project 2025, which is pretty laughable. i explain why, when we come back, after a very quick break. back, after a very quick break [introspective music] recipes. recipes written by hand and lost to time. are now being analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ we really don't want people to think of feeding food like ours is spoiling their dogs. good, real food is simple. it looks like food, it smells like food, it's what dogs are supposed to be eating. ♪

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♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh] ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai and intel. clearing the way, [rumble] [whoosh] so you arrive exactly where you belong. with all of the speculation about joe biden's future, it is important to remember what is at stake in this election, what this is all about, why we are talking about this. i mean, this week the supreme court just expanded the role of presidential immunity beyond what has ever been in the past. ever. right now donald trump and all his accolades are planning to push through radical expansion of executive power so they can do what they want to do without

any consequences. and we know that because they wrote it all down, of course they did, it is literally online. as we just said many times on the show, the right wing think heritage tank foundation gathered hundreds of organizations and laid out road map for a second trurm term known as project 2025. i want you to listen to the president of the heritage foundation said this week in response to that supreme court ruling on presidential immunity that happened. here is kevin roberts. >> in spite of all the nonsense from the left, wee going to win. we are in the process of taking this country back. we are in the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless, if the left allows it to be. >> i mean, the second american revolution, that rhetoric is clearly dangerous, deranged, but also sparks some new attention, not ones they want necessarily on this very unpopular and extreme second term of theirs which donald trump of all people

seemed to pick up on. he said "i know nothing about project 2025. i have no idea who is behind it. i disagree with some of the thing they are saying and some of the things they are saying is ridiculous and abysmal. anything they do i wish them luck but i have nothing to do with them." i know nothing about it, i disagree, i wish them luck, none of that makes sense, but trump is basically trying to pretend he is removed from project 2025, which is ocyard for a range of reasons, including this. >> heritage foundation, president, somebody else doing unbelievable job, he is bringing it back to levels it has never seen, dr. kevin roberts. kevin, thank you, kevin. >> he is doing an unbelievable job. kevin roberts is the same guy you saw in the earlier clip. remember, a huge contingency of maga world is promoting this plan. like, say, trump ally, steve bannon, a guy who is in contact with trump at all hours of the

day, including during interviews, like this one you see on the screen, and who literally waved the 900-page plan around in an interview he did last week with abc, before heading off to prison. many of project 2025 contributors and advisors had very formal rolls in the trump administration or campaign, and importantly, these are people who are also expektded to be in trump's white house again if he wins. some of those names you might recognize, others may be just learning about, like russ vote, former director of the office of management and budgett who wrote plans on the executive president of, leading contender of trump's chief of staff. as in, the most powerful advisor in the white house. in the meantime, voters overseeing the overhaul of the republican party platform, that is right, this same guy was appointed by rnc in trump campaign is as director for platform committee. yeah, i am sure trump knows

nothing about these plans. just some kind of coincidence that someone who might be his chief of staff is org straighting development of many of the exact plans, a coincidence. again, people close to trump wrote project 2025, people close to him promote project 2025 and don't forget, this plan is largely consistent on, altmost all of it, with everything trump talks about openly. what trump says out loud loud about immigration, expansion of presidential power, and litany of right wing priorities, is in complete lock step with project 2025. so, the man could read public sentiment and may recognize it around project 2025 is becoming toxic. it doesn't whater what you call it, or what trump says about it, what he knows or doesn't know he who wishes well because the plans are donald trump's plans and no one should forget that.

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♪ [suspenseful music] trains. [whoosh] ♪ trains that use the power of dell ai and intel. clearing the way, [rumble] [whoosh] so you arrive exactly where you belong. in the wake of the supreme court's decision on presidential immunity, never before has the presidency had this much leeway to abuse power, never before has a presidential candidate made more clear he has every intention of abusing power. former acting u.s. solicitor

general and andrew wiseman. neil, how does the supreme court's immunity decision enhance, i was talking about this in the last block, the dangers of what donald trump and republicanerize clearly trying to achieve through project 2025? >> well, at the top of had show you called this a green light to abuse executive power, it is a shocking decision. even executive power hawks like sy perkush, agree the decision is wrong. you can see how wrong the decision is by looking at one paragraph. that helps answer your question. one paragraph of the chief justice's 6 -3 decision joined only by the republican-appointed justices, said when donald trump pressured justice department officials to impure integrity of 2020 election, to the point where they even threatened to resign, he said that, the court

said it was an official act. that is patently absurde, the constitution cuts the president explicitly out of election disputes for the best of reasons. the president has the most self interest in that. so, if that is an official act and the criminal law can't touch that, then there is very little that the president can't do to slap the label official act on it, and do whatever he wants. it connects up so much to what you are saying about project 2025 because that check on one of the main checks on a president breaking the law or having crazy policy is the expert career staff. i saw that first hand when i was at the justice department, non-political people who just tell you what it is, and the whole thing of project 2025 is to fire all those people and replace them with trump loyalists. that is not the constitution, it is not been the government sense pendleton act of 1823. very dangerous.

>> that is such an important-- they are the heart and soul of government. and government service. virtually every agency, especially agencies like the department of justus and the defense department, state department. let me ask you, i mean, and, andrew, i don't want you to make this joyful if it is not meant to be joyful. are there any checks? neil referenced project 2025 they want to dismantle the checks that would be in the system. obviously the supreme court decision gave trump a green light, if he is elected. are there checks left in the system? would there be in the system, if he were to get a second term? >> i am going to start with sort of dour news, not only can the president have absolute criminal immunity with respect to interactions with the department of justice, but that includes even creating sham investigations, of course that is what was at issue here, they said that is not off limits.

so, just imagine the doj under president donald trump has a sham investigation of journalists, legal analysts, judges, witnesses, jurors, political opponents, all absolutely immune. then extend that to were no criminal liability if they were to say just go after black and brown communities, after certain religious groups, that is otherwise illegal, or if they said we are going to go after, or not go after crimes committed against people who have had abortions, or doctors who have performed abortions, all of that the court has taken off the table in terms of criminal liability. that is just the department of justice. we haven't even gone down the road of the department of defense and what it would mean for the military. i cannot underscore enough what neil is saying. if, to go back to sort of what

this election is about, this is so much now because of what the court has done, the court is on the ballot, but also having a leader who shows self restraint and character is going to be critical given what the supreme court has just done. >> no question, and thank you, both, for being so direct to that. i think it is important for people to understand. let me ask you, quickly, before we go about developments in the classified documents case. they asked trump's lawyers, for a stay after the supreme court ruling. is there a real chance that criminal cases against trump will be brushed away with this ruling and that is what they want. what is the shot at that? >> well, not in the realty-based community, but of course what is going on in florida is starting to deviate massively from that. the court's decision, supreme court's decision was just about acts donald trump took while president. much of the allegation against

him with respect to mar-a-lago and stealing classified documents has to do with stuff he did after he left office. so, approaching this is a fair-minded observer, asterisk here, i don't think it would stop that mar-a-lago case from happening, because it is post presidential conduct, but remains to be seen what this judge will do. >> neil and andrew, always love talking to you, thank you both so much for joining me this afternoon. i have one more thing to tell you out there, about before we go today, we are back after a very quick break. fz k after very quick break fz it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate. shingles strikes as a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. and it could wake at any time. think you're not at risk for shingles? it's time to wake up. because shingles could wake up in you. if you're over 50, talk to your doctor or pharmacist about shingles prevention. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved

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that does it for me today but we already working on a big show tomorrow night. pennsylvania senator john fetterman fresh off campaign stop with president biden today, my guest tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern. he has been one of the president's fiercest defenders and i am looking forward to talking to him about his views on all of us. don't forget to grab your tickets to see me and my nerdy colleagues, our event in brooklyn, new york, saturday september 7th. scan the qr code on your screen to buy your tickets today. stay right where you are, because there is much more news coming up on msnbc. new coming up on msnbc on this new our house supreme court conservatives say