speak out. they'll will roaming the halls this evening, and we'll try to catch them and get them to comment. >> i'm sure you will. quickly, has biden been working the hill that aggressively? he is a creature of the senate, loves to work the phone, interpersonal. have you picked up much in terms of his backchannelling? >> the campaign says he's made about 20 different calls to democratic members of congress. that is an extraordinarily low number when you think about it, especially considering the fact that there are over 250 democrats who serve on capitol hill. obviously, the leadership members are the most important ones to talk to, but you would think he would be, you know, talking to more members and doing more of a full-court press at this point. according to the campaign, it's only about 20. >> all right. senior congressional reporter for "punch bowl" news, almost said "axios," andrew desiderio, thank you very much.

thanks for joining us on "way too early." "morning joe" starts right now. i've been doing this a long time and haven't ever been more optimistic about america's future, if we stick together. i mean it. here's what else i've learned and many of you have learned, you walk your faith, as well. we're all imperfect beings. we don't know where or what faith will deliver us to or when. what we do know is that we can seek a life of light, hope, love, and truth, no matter what. we can seek that life. take all of our experiences and give everything we have to work together. when we do, they can't stop us. i mean this sincerely. >> president biden speaking at a church in philadelphia over the weekend as he faces a critical week for the future of his campaign. calls for him to bow out of the race continue from some

democratic members of congress, as well as members of the donor class. this comes as the president is set to lead the nato summit this week in washington. and donald trump is lying low for the most part. >> where is he? >> he's disappeared. >> where is he? >> he's just not around. >> why are they hiding him? are they afraid that he may go out and talk about world war ii coming or barack obama being president, or will he go, ah, ya. >> he -- >> they're afraid to have him talk. allies are like, joe biden, why is he hiding? what are they scared of? and donald trump, he is buried down in mar-a-lago. they won't let him out. he's a prisoner in a gilded cage because they're afraid he may actually open his mouth. >> and, of course, chances --

>> irony. >> -- of lying are high. >> well, you know what they found was, as badly as joe biden did, we've all said he did horrifically, you look at the polls, and even "the new york times"/sienna poll, which has always been an outlier against biden, shows that even with that terrible performance, he picked up independent voters against donald trump. right? so what are they doing with donald trump? they're keeping him out of sight until the republican convention. maybe, who knows? maybe his handlers, maybe his bosses will let him out this week, but right now, they're saying no, no, man. you have to stay right there. you can't talk. people hate you. independents hate you. swing voters hate you. just be quiet, and you may win this thing again. it is kind of crazy. >> well, you know, it's been a

crazy week in many ways. we have nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. a partner and chief political columnist at "puck." managing editor at "the bulwark," sam stein. u.s. national editor at "the financial times," ed luce is with us. >> there's so much to talk about here. i want to talk about american politics. i mean, what happened in france yesterday -- >> wow. >> -- whoa. what a political earthquake. >> talk about a roll of the dice. >> once again, the media -- it's just like the red wave talk. oh, there's going to be a red wave. there's going to be a red wave. there's going to be a red wave. voters say, no, there's not. a couple years ago, ed -- i'm sorry, i'm going to go to france for a second. >> are you talking to france? it is a huge story. >> really quickly. a couple weeks ago, what did we hear? le pen, le pen, le pen. the far right is going to win. the far right. it is the end of france. this is the same exact nonsense

we heard two years ago in the presidential race when it was too close to call and president le pen was coming. macron had approval ratings in the mid 30s. he ended up winning 58% to 42%. the same thing happened yesterday. is macron in a great place? no, he's not. but who is in a worse place right now? le pen. far from getting majority, they finished in third place. what happened? >> well, the french electorate had a whole week in the two-round voting system to figure out tactical voting. they did figure it out. macron's candidates dropped out where they came third. the left candidates dropped out where they came third. they all agreed on one candidate to fight the far right, le pen's party, and it worked. people, voters under their

system, and i think it is quite a good system. you have round one, where people express their outrage or, you know, their preference. round two, they have to think. they have to face reality. what kind of government do we actually want? from three-quarters of french voters, it's not a neofascist government. >> no, neofascism not in this week in france. likewise, across the channel, just an absolute, historic drubbing of the tories, the conservative party there. john heilemann, you know, after joe biden's debate, i said he needed to consider getting out, but i said also, for a guy who has been in politics for 50 years, who has been in public service for over 50 years, we need to give him time. we need to give him some time. oh, there it is. "for a man who has given more than 50 years of his life to

public service, it is more than fair to take a breath and see what happens over the next few day." well, those few days have turned into about a week, week and a half, and here we are. i find it absolutely fascinating. we'll get to the bloomberg polls that came out this past weekend. i've will ever talked about the sienna poll that shows donald trump losing independents. i mean, after joe biden's debate performance. but joe biden now has what i would dream of having if i were running for president of the united states in his position. i've got washington insiders against me. well, let's put it the way it is. joe biden now can say he's having to fight media elites, "new york times" editorial page, billionaire donors. they've been on the phone for a week and a half. washington politicians, though mark warner now canceled his meeting. the congressional black caucus,

by the way, not really happy with all these people trying to substitute their elitist viewpoints for that of millions of democratic primary voters. hollywood moguls, hey there, ari and ms. disney. of course, maga extremists. biden allies -- now, this is what they'll say, wait a second, you're telling me media elites and billionaire donors and washington poiticians and washington moguls, they all think that they can substitute their judgment for the judgment of millions of democratic primary voters? john heilemann, it may happen. this isn't about what ought to be. this is about what is. you know, joe biden has a fired up, angry democratic base in parts, and he's gotten a lot of elites putting him in a position where he can look strong, staring them down. so where are we this monday morning as we go into one of the

more pivotal weeks in american politics? >> well, i think, joe, that the idea that -- the way you framed it, which is how the biden campaign is trying to frame it, also, is joe biden is being defiant in the face of out of touch elites across the spectrum who are trying to force him out of the race, and that's a good fight to have. i think that there is one -- if we move away from the rhetorical framing of it and into the more substantive reality of it, one of the categories of elites are elected officials. elected officials who are representing a whole bunch of voters and were paying attention to what voters are saying. we don't know yet what members of the house who have compaq to washington, what they heard over their recess. it was the period since the debate through last week. i imagine all the house members have a good fingertip feel of what's going on at home, what they're hearing from their voters.

i think they're not -- they are, to the extent that some of them would like biden to step down and, as you know, yesterday, there were more calls on this -- on the call hakeem jeffries did, there were four ranking democrats on the call who said they wanted biden to step aside. a couple more said they had profound concerns about it. i think those people are, unlike in reality, unlike you can -- billionaire donors are billions and want to see their money behind a candidate that can win, but i think biden's biggest challenge is not even the donor class. it certainly isn't the media, which we can talk all day about what the media's role in all this is. i do think the biggest challenge is his party on capitol hill, which joe biden clearly cares about. he is essentially playing chicken with members of congress. they are in a staring match right now.

a lot of people on the hill want biden to step aside. they won't come out publicly and saying that. biden is saying, if you want me out, come out and say it. the ultimate dynamic, does there come a day in the course of the next week where the following four people, chuck schumer, nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, hakeem jeffries, either alone or together, either literally or figuratively go to joe biden and say, "you've lost the party, and we don't see a path forward. we think it'd be best if you stepped aside." if that conversation happens, i think it'd be hard for joe biden to go forward. if it doesn't happen, it's a whole different kettle of fish. >> yeah, i think it is very unlikely that that -- i just think it is unlikely that's going to happen. i think it is unlikely it is going to happen because you talk, again, to members of the democratic base, you talk to member of the congressional black caucus, you talk to a lot of core democratic voters, even look for anecdotal evidence.

a lot of angry democrats out there asking why these people are trying to substitute their judgment for joe biden's -- or for the millions of voters who voted for joe biden. so, you know, it's -- it could happen. it could happen, but i suspect these house members, and i started to suspect this a couple days ago, mika, that these house members were probably hearing back in their home districts what i heard when i was vacationing with my kids. >> they were screaming in the church in philadelphia. >> yelling in the church in philadelphia. when i was with my kids and the window was rolled down, couple going, "hey, joe, leave biden alone." >> thank you. >> that was like in the day or two after the debate. it's anecdotal. everything is anecdotal. i've had enough calls from elites over the last couple weeks who want him out and

enough calls from members of the sort of democratic rank and file, they're not ready for him to get out. >> what's the alternative? >> they're wondering why the elites are splitting the party. part of it is, they don't have confidence that kamala harris is going to do any better than joe biden in wisconsin, in michigan, and in pennsylvania. >> we're going to hear more from ryan nobles in a moment, his latest reporting on what's going on with this on capitol hill. most polls still show a competitive race between joe biden and donald trump, even after last month's debate. the latest survey from bloomberg news and morning consult finds every battleground state within the margin of error, aside from pennsylvania, according to the poll. trump narrowly leads among registered voters in arizona, georgia, nevada, north carolina, and is ahead by a larger margin in the keystone state.

biden, meanwhile, holds small leads in michigan and wisconsin. separate polling from cbs news and yougov shows it essentially the same as it was in may. "the new york times" and siena college shows a wider gap between registered and likely voters nationwide. it did show independents moving toward biden. >> sam stein, mika will tell you, i do this show, then i just, you know, dig a hole and go into it and sleep for, you know, about 20 hours. then i come back and do the show again. i do not, as you know, you've known me a long time, i do not work the phones. i just don't. i do not. i'm not like, hey, what's happening? what are you hearing? i just don't do that. i've got four kids. i've got four hours. i read in for the most part.

>> nobody knows nothing anyway. >> nobody knows nothing anyway. i have been on the phone nonstop for two weeks, and it is so interesting that after the debate, everybody was in meltdown mode, including the campaign. talking about how they had heard that, you know -- i talk to the most powerful democrats who all believed after the debate, they were going to see biden down by 10 points. they all believed the small dollar donors were going to dry up. they all believed it was a matter of days. it reminded me so much of when sam donaldson got on abc news right after monica, after that news came out, and said bill clinton wouldn't last the week, because everybody in official washington said bill clinton wouldn't last the week. it reminded me of "access hollywood," when everybody said, you know, including mike lee, "i

would never support such a man or let anybody talk to my wife," you know, the guy that's at the front of the national fron, carrying that flag. but we heard it was over then. i must say, on that phone all day yesterday, i was hearing just the opposite. i was hearing the opposite from campaign, from democratic donors, and especially from members of the congressional black caucus. they're like, what? >> oh, they're with joe. >> polls are the same, we're with joe. why are these people picking on him? i'm just reporting. >> bringing the news. >> i'm sure you've heard the same thing. actually, the biden campaign went from a week ago saying it is all over to, yesterday, going, oh, my god, we feel energized, especially with fetterman, casey, and everybody going around with him. said it was one of his best days on the campaign trail in 2020 or

2024. >> i'm glad to hear you're working the phones again. we need you out there. i, too, was also working the phones. and to your point, i talked to a member of congress yesterday about what the reaction was in his home district. he said it was an 80/20 split. 80% of the correspondence of voters were democrats saying biden needs to stick it out. people are being too rude, too mean. they're trying to push him out. 20% of respondents were panicked about biden's position, worried about the election. the split was even more interesting because of who he was talking to. predominantly african-american voters were the ones who wanted biden to stick with it. more middle, upper class white voters tended to be more panicky. that gets to the place where we're in right now. you see the base of the party, the bedrock constituencies, the

members saying biden should stick around, offering support. they're saying vocally, he needs to stay. you saw representative clyburn, who matters tremendously in this whole process, put out a supportive statement the other day, too. there are, obviously, major pockets of discontent and fear within the party. you saw about nine members total now have said they want biden to drop out of the race. look, i don't think it is a great position, necessarily, for the party. it is fine for biden. when 20% of your party is skiddish, that's not great, but it is surviable if biden chooses and wants to survive it. the main distinctions we should talk about with respect to the prior situations, the bill clinton, the "access hollywood" moments, is that the question surrounding biden is not whether this was, you know, a momentary lapse of judgment. it is whether he has the mental acuity to forge the campaign forward. he has to go out and prove it like he did yesterday, and not

just yesterday but every single day. the press scrutiny has been tremendous, potentially, arguably, almost unfair, but that's what happens when you have a debate like he did. that's just going to be the case for every day forward. >> but -- >> can he sustain it? can he get rid of the concerns? that will be the true test for biden. >> i do think, though, and while the reaction to the debate was fair, i just think it also outshouted, overshadowed all the lies president trump told during the debate. every time he opened his mouth, he said something insane or that was a lie. i mean, when he talked about the issue of abortion, i mean, it is unbelievable how little coverage donald trump and some of the things he said during a serious presidential debate, if we're going to take this debate so seriously and cover it 24/7, it's probably important to take a look at what he said and also what he refused to say.

because some would say that would make him unfit for office and call for some editorial boards to consider a massive ed oral piece calling for him to step down. but that didn't happen. instead, they asked for joe biden to step down. i'll just say one more thing. everyone was watching the stephanopoulos interview. obviously, the debate performance. joe biden, it's not like this is the first time he flubs his words. this is a man -- >> he's been doing it about 54 years. >> how old is he? he has a stutter. on top of that, he flubs his words. he mangles his words. he is not an expert in elocution and ivy league phraseology and never will be. >> yeah. >> now, everyone is looking at it like it is new. that's another thing. >> except -- >> and he has age-related issues. >> he had a horrible day, absolutely dismal debate. it was horrifying to watch him up there on stage. it was horrifying. that's sort of the five-alarm

fire the media went to. i think a week later, you know, now that "the new york times" has a syntax blog that is following his syntax in radio interviews in wisconsin, it's gotten ridiculous and over the top when you actually have a guy sitting down in mar-a-lago, again, that's told lie after lie after lie after lie. and, again, let me repeat it, as badly as joe biden did in that poll -- in that debate, you had "the new york times"/siena poll showing bad news for biden, losinglose ing democrats, but independents breaking to biden because they were stick of donald trump's lies. that's something to remember. yeah, the reporting has gotten crazy and over the top because, once again, and i love this

about the press, like, mainstream media, they're like, oh, no, they're saying we're unfair. they're saying that we have hidden this. who hid it? for all the right-wing stooges saying the mainstream media hid this, like i said, i probably spent more time with joe biden than most reporters. talked to him about in-depth foreign policy. talked to him about -- the guy, the guy was completely there. if he weren't, i would have been the first to come on the show the next day and say, "the president is not there. he can't complete his duty. i saw him up close." was he slower? yeah. was he stiff? yeah, he was stiff. was he still able to talk about his plan for benjamin netanyahu and israel and bringing hamas, that war to an end? yeah. was he still able to talk about what he hoped bill burns was going to be doing in russia and ukraine? yeah, he was able to do all of that stuff.

so because trumpist, right-wing stooges sort of in the media, or maybe anti anti-trumpists, if they're too ashamed to say they're for a guy who promises to be an autocrat, they freak the media out. the question is, i know a lot of people in the media. yeah, yeah, they're liberal. they've always been liberal. center left. they've always been liberal. but i don't know one of them that wouldn't have broken this story if they had good reporting and win a pulitzer prize. i just have to say, go back to "the wall street journal." again, and i will say it again, i am a big fan of the direction the paper has been going in. i'm a big fan of the new editor. on the story about biden's mental acuity, if they had it nailed, they wouldn't have had to lead with kevin, who

contradicted his own previous public statements and private statements. think about that. if there was this media conspiracy, then why didn't "the wall street journal," that wanted to break the story, why could they only go to my kevin, a guy whose only words publicly and privately to his staff undermined narrative? the answer is because nobody had the story nailed down. now, the media is freaking out, going, oh, they're saying we're liberal. you are liberal. that doesn't mean you have to do, like, syntax blogs. well, in the third sentence of the fourth paragraph. >> do it to donald trump. >> try to do that with donald trump. >> you won't even -- it -- >> hell, just print a donald trump speech in its totality on the back page. it will keep the kids entertained for weeks. in fact, "new york times," you have wordle. you have the other thing that is more complicated.

i can't figure out the numbers. >> trumple. >> let's do trumple. print on the back page of "the new york times" a full trump speech. the person who can best arrange the words to make complete thoughts, they're the winners of trumple for the day. i like that, trumple. that's good. >> you're welcome. >> so we are not talking, ed luce, about what ought to be. that is not our job here, except for when it is. but, this morning, with joe biden's future in the balance, the democratic party's future in the balance, america's future in the balance, we're talking about what is. now, i know that you have come out saying he needed to step down. i know i said the day after the debate, he needed to consider stepping down. i said, let's give him some time. let's see what would happen. other people, tom friedman, who very much respected joe biden. >> richard haass.

>> richard haass, nick kristof, thoughtful people have said the same thing you have said, which is that he should step down. here we are, about ten days later. it seems the base is rallying around him. what do you think -- i'm going to ask you, what do you think ought to happen, and then what do you think will happen? >> well, joe, i'm very mindful of this talk of the base versus the elites. you know, i hate to identify myself with the elites, particularly since, you know, i've been -- as you can see from the driving english rain behind me, i'm sitting across the atlantic. i'm not going to repeat, in my view, that biden ought to step down. i think it's worth looking at the immovable object and the unstoppable force here. i think the immovable object is

president joe biden. it became clear in the stephanopoulos interview he's not going to step down. the unstoppable force is, you know, people like, as we saw yesterday on the morning shows, senator chris murphy, soon to be senator adam schiff, and more and more democratic voices, i guess from the elites, but the elected elites, you know, are getting more and more worried about a trump -- about biden's ability to sustain a campaign. something has to give. because these two factors continuing another ten days from now is going to be extremely damaging. i don't know how it is going to end up. it is conceivable that, come the second debate on september 10th, biden will still be the nominee and he will perform well. he will have a good night. that is quite conceconceivable. i do think, though, this is more

than just his lifelong stutter. i think that he -- he sometimes forget, as we saw in the recent interviews, he sometimes forgets the point he is making. he does stare quite vacantly. he is often inaudible. i don't know how he fixes that. there could be bad moments, but there have got to be fewer of them and there have got to be more vigorous moments. the final point i'd make is, if god almighty is the only person who could remove him from being the nominee, i think there is another. that's the donor base. if the money starts to dry up, that will concentrate minds. i don't know whether that will happen, though. and i hope this situation doesn't persist for too long either way. >> right. i do agree with that. all right. we'll take a 90-second break. ryan nobles on the other side with the latest from capitol hill. we'll be right back.

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just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop? your wallet definitely is. welcome back. a live look at the white house. just about half past the hour. let's bring in nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. ryan, what's the very latest? >> mika and joe, this is a crucial week for the president with both the house and the senate returning to capitol hill after more than two weeks over the fourth of july holiday.

of course, we spent a lot of time talking to many of these democrats in both the house and the senate to get their polls of what comes next from joe biden. what i think you really see playing out here is that there are very few congressional democrats, asvidenced by the fact only six or seven came forward publicly stating they want joe biden to get out of the race, but there's a lot more saying it privately. they don't want to get into a position where they publicly have to get into a confrontation with joe biden. what i was most struck by in my conversations with democrats after the interview on friday night with george stephanopoulos was that the president seemed dug in, and that frustrated a lot of these house democrats, in particular, because they don't want to get into a standoff with joe biden. if it gets to the point where they have to come out publicly, if chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, other congressional leaders have to come out to the cameras and publicly tell joe biden it is time to step down, then the race might already be lost. that puts them in a position where, if joe biden doesn't step

down, that will be used against him as the campaign moves forward. it'll be used as an attack by republicans, and the democratic party will be in a very difficult situation. what you see playing out here, and i had many democrats say this to me over and over again, is this family conversation. there's a family conversation obviously happening within the biden family itself. there's also a family conversation that is taking place in both the house democratic caucus and in the senate democratic caucus, where each one of these members is getting a sense of just how urgent they think the situation is. is it desperate enough where there needs to be this kind of meeting at the white house with these congressional leaders, where they plead with joe biden to step down? do they continue this campaign where they subtly try to convince him to do the right thing, as many of them have said, and step out on his own accord, or do they just take a step back, retreat, and allow this to play out? the answer to that question, i don't think, is really going to

be determined until they all get into rooms this week and have this out behind closed doors and really begin to talk about what they think is the best path forward. i think it is very important to read between the lines about this outreach that the president himself has had to many of these congressional democrats. particularly in leadership. with hakeem jeffries, chuck schumer, jim clyburn and others. the president said in the interview friday night that they told him to stay in. many told him to stay in. i don't know if that is completely accurate. i don't think that any of them have specifically told him to get out, but there seems to be this chasm between what they actually want to have happen and what they're willing to actually say to him to get to that point. we're not to that point yet where these congressional leaders are prepared to look him in the eye and tell him that they don't think he can win and that, in order to save democracy and beat donald trump, he needs to step aside. those are the conversations we're going to see play out here over the next couple of days. i do think it is complicated to

a certain extent because the nato summit is in town. that's going to mean that not only is there less time to have these conversations, but there's also going to be a sense that they don't want to challenge the president or undermine him when the rest of the world is here and the eyes of the world are paying attention to him and everything that's happening. but i do think that this is a critical juncture in the future of the biden campaign, and the way that democrats on capitol hill respond to it is going to play out in a big way over the next couple of days, mika and joe. >> ryan, sam stein here. my family conversations are slightly less existential. i don't know if anyone else's is. question for you. what leverage do -- and, honestly, what leverage do congressional democrats have here? what do they have here? if joe biden told them, i'm going to stay around, then what? that's what i keep coming back to. what actual leverage does nancy pelosi and chuck schumer have? they could pull at his heart

strings, make compelling arguments, but this isn't nixon where they can say, hey, you're going to be impeached. what's the leverage? >> they don't have any. you're exactly right, that's the problem they find themselves in. at least most of the democrats i've talked to believe that it would be better if the president were to step down. they also are really concerned about dragging this fight out into the public and getting into a standoff with the president. in many ways, in the interview friday night, that's what he was daring them to do. he was basically saying to them, if you think i need to step down, you need to come and tell me that to my face, and then we'll have a conversation afterwards. i think the leverage point is, do they feel there is enough critical mass within the caucus, the front line members, some of these very vulnerable senators in places like montana and ohio, do they plead with their leadership? do they plead with chuck shimer, chuck schumer, who the president has a good relationship with, do

they plead the hakeem jeffries and others to go to the white house, look him in the eye, and say, "you need to do this for the country, you need to do this for the democratic party"? it may not get to that point. there may not be enough democrats willing to push leadership to do that, and leadership may be unwilling, as well. if it gets to that point, you'll see joe biden able to withstand this storm. but i do think there is an unbelievable amount of anxiety among rank and file democrats. i did have one democrat say to me after the interview on friday that they were heartbroken over the way that this process has played itself out, and they were worried about joe biden's future and his legacy. they wish he would just see the light and pass the baton. there are many that feel this could get worse before it gets better. >> all right. nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles, greatly appreciate your great reporting. >> thank you, ryan. >> you know, this does remind me so much of what we heard after

"access hollywood." it reminds me so much of what we heard about bill clinton in '9. they were not going to survive. why did they not step aside? because they were the president. in donald trump's case, he had the nomination. he wasn't giving it up. john heilemann, for people watching at home, we have very, very intelligent audience. i've seen the numbers. it is really humbling, the number of post grad degrees, the number of people that watch that are so much smarter than me. it is a very low bar, but there are some people that may see clips of this on the twitter or the x, and it's hard for them when they're in their mother's basement eating cheetos and typing their blogs, danny's thoughts or whatever they are, it is hard for them to hold two competing thoughts in mind.

so when i say this stuff, i'm not saying about what should be. today, we're talking about what is. >> mm-hmm. >> this is the reality. joe biden said much of this. joe biden is president of the united states. joe biden is head of his party. joe biden is the nominee for the democratic party, or he is going to be, presidential race. joe biden won every single democratic primary this year. joe biden has over 90% of the delegates to the democratic convention. biden has been doing this for 54 years. i say this not being demeaning to house members, for i was one and i loved it. i loved serving the house and was very honored by it. but they're one of 435.

why is joe biden going to listen to a couple of house members? or mark warner? i don't see that happening, do you? >> well, i don't think he is -- there is no question he's not going to listen to a couple house members. as i said before, i don't think he is going to listen to -- certainly, he's not going to listen to background quotes which we all have from terrified, panicked, scared house and senate members. i think there is an overwhelming number of democrats in the senate caucus, democratic senate caucus who think biden should step aside. i think he is not going to listen to mark warner. i said before, and to go to sam's point, i think there is a -- again, this is a hypothetical. we don't know if this will or will not happen. i think it comes down to not

individual house members on background, even on television. i think it comes down to, for joe biden, if -- and i still believe that joe biden cares about the party enough and cares about the success, winning this election enough, that if the leadership of the party, chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, in combination or individually, went to biden and said, "we love you. we respect you. we think you've been a great president. we are looking at the numbers. we're looking at what is happening in our competitive districts, in the states that are in play, and we are going to lose. we could not just lose the presidency. as best we can tell, we don't think you have a path to beat jump, or the likelihood is very low. and, and --" >> the problem, john, with that, john, is they told him in 2020 he was going to lose. after iowa, they were going to lose. >> they -- >> hold on. they told him after he finished fifth place in new hampshire, you're going to lose.

he wasloser. he was mocked by the -- >> but -- >> i'm not done. this explains why he's dug in. the obama people constantly mocked and ridiculed him. david axelrod has been mocking and ridiculing joe biden. i love david, but he has been mocking and ridiculing joe biden with every breath he takes, every move he makes. he has for years now. the pod guys we had on our show, constantly going after joe biden. the obama people have gone after biden. party elites have never cared for biden. he's heard this his entire life. so why is he going to listen to jerry nadler now? >> as i said a second ago, joe, i think that joe biden -- i don't know what joe biden is or isn't going to do. i'm not going to predict what is going on in his mind. all i'm saying, i think the only scenario in which joe biden will leave, will decide to step

aside, i think he respects -- and i don't think you disagree with me -- he respects the four people i mentioned. he respects nancy pelosi, respects chuck schumer, reveres the senate as an institution, cares about the future of the party. if those four people who are the preeminent leaders in reality in the democratic party on the hill and the ones that joe biden respects the most, i think he would take seriously those people if they came to him face-to-face and told him that they had reached that conclusion. i think he'd take them seriously. i don't know what he'd decide. you asked, would he listen to jerry nadler? no. listen to house members individually, collectively on background? even from battleground, imperilled swing state democrats in the house, no. i think he has enough respect for the leadership of the senate and the house, having been a member of the leadership himself, that he'd take those people seriously if they approach him. the leverage is not that they could force him but appeal to

him in a way he'd take seriously. >> okay. >> he respects them and trusts the judgment. >> totally get it. i will say, yesterday, as the old saying goes, two of the most important democratic senators to joe biden voted with their feet yesterday. that is senator fetterman, who has been an intense, strong supporter for joe biden, and also senator casey, who is in the political fight for his life. they shadowed him yesterday. they stayed with him yesterday. we're going to talk about this a lot more. i'll go back, also, to ed luce in a minute, sitting in the english country side with a driving rain behind him. i really want to talk about the historic loss that the conservatives were pelted with, worse than a driving rain. first, we have some -- we have another story. horrible. >> hurricane beryl made landfall

along the central texas coastline as a category 1 story earlier this morning. let's go to meteorologist angie lassman for the very latest. angie, what do you got? >> good morning, guys. basically, we saw this system run out of real estate. otherwise, we would have been talking about a much stronger system making landfall for the third time. it's been 13 days since it came off the coast of africa. you can see conditions already deteriorating in houston. we'll see things get much worse, especially as we get closer to the late morning hours. right now, category 1, still maintaining its category 1 strength for this system. 80-mile-per-hour winds and moving north at 12 miles per hour. let's talk about some of the things we've already seen, which is really intense winds, hurricane force in some spots. right now, winds gusting 62 miles per hour in houston. 75-mile-per-hour winds happening in galveston. hurricane force in some spots. much quieter in the locations where it did come on shore. 30 to 40-mile-per-hour winds in places like matagorda. we have a tornado watch in effect. when we see the circulation

coming on shore, it is not hard to see some of the tiny spin-ups with the isolated tornadoes. we'll be watching that through late morning. on top of that, we've seen winds up to 90 miles per hour in free port. offshore, waves over 20 feet. impressive stuff happening from this system. one of our main concerns going forward will be the flooding rains, especially in the vulnerable locations like houston. we've seen it time and time again. it doesn't take much to see this really concerning flooding. when we have more than 5, 10, close to 15 inches of rain on deck, this is going to be something we watch through the day today. notice the system will weaken, but it still brings plenty of rain to folks even north of texas, arkansas, parts of the midwest. this will be something we watch through the day today. by the way, storm surge has been impressive, as well. we've seen upwards of 4 feet or close to it in places like matagorda bay, near the mouth of the bay. things are going to start to improve, but we have to get through the morning and early afternoon hours before we see

that for folks along the texas coast. >> angie lassman, thank you very much. keep us posted. coming up right here on "morning joe," amid questions over his re-election campaign, president biden is set to host a high-stakes nato summit this week. we'll talk about what to expect as world leaders head to washington. plus, our next guest joins us with a history of modern era political grifting that he says hijacked american conservatism. it starts with the role model for donald trump. "morning joe" will be right back. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market

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five years of a great rate that won't change. yep, dave's feeling it. yes. but it's only for a limited time. five years? -five years. introducing the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. connected to air force one. >> thank you. >> mr. prime minister, congratulations. what a hell of a victory. >> thank you, mr. president. it's been a long night and day. >> no doubt, our two countries are going to continue our special relationship. we're working together on just about every issue, supporting ukraine, managing china, advancing cooperation in the indo-pacific. >> the special relationship is obviously the bedrock, always

has been, for our defense, for our security, and prosperity, which, obviously, is central to our missions for government. >> very moving. the part where he talked about, you kno -- >> stop it. 10 downing street releasing the video of the new prime minister after his landslide win, keir starmer. wow, europe. hello. >> let's go back to a quaint english country house, with driving rain behind it. ed. >> of course. >> ed, a lot of people were saying, hey, what we're looking at is probably a split. we're going to probably see liberals doing well in britain and far right-wing fascists doing well in france.

ends up, well, the center held in both. center left did extraordinarily well. has to be one of the worst weeks for nationalist conservatism in europe in a very long time. >> yeah, it does. i think what you were saying earlier, though, about pants on fire, everybody sort of headless chicken a few weeks ago about the direction of voters, i think you are right. in our profession, you know, it played a big role in that. there are a lot of center right, center left voters, majority, in fact, in all countries of europe, except, perhaps, in hungary. on some votes in austria. most of our democracies are a majority centrist, either tilting left or right. they've become more sophisticated.

britain exhibited this last thursday. france did yesterday. they've become more sophisticated about banding together to make sure the really unhygienic political forces on the far right, those who target immigrants, those who claim that there are true french or true british and then fake ones, non-white ones usually, they're getting more effective about keeping those people out. putting what the french call -- around them. i think this is very impressive. i mean, what i hope is that democrats will draw some lessons from this. because i don't think there is any force in the democratic world quite as toxic as donald trump. >> right. >> you probably noticed yesterday that there were a lot ofporters of trump saying the french

elections involved cheating. not even marine le pen said that. [ laughter ] >> they're such losers. >> american elections -- >> all right. >> yeah. >> not only are they losers, they're bad losers. they've lost in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22, '23. they lost in britain. they lost in france. they lost in poland. they're still doing the whole, oh, they cheated. we lost. they're like 5-year-old kids who just are not good at the game. i do want to -- like, this is very important, and we need to push back on something that has been a media narrative now for quite some time. that is that the populist right has taken over europe. when you look at what happened in britain, when you look at what happened in france yesterday, when you look at what happened in poland earlier this year, or was it the end of last year, shocking result, in that

the most pro-europe candidate actually is now, for the most part, running poland, which has really strong populist sort of undertow. we really are seeing, as you say, in europe, the center holding. >> we're seeing the center holding. the crisis, of course, is not over. you know, macron, i think, still has reasons to regret calling the snap election. he had a majority and now he doesn't. we are going to get a period of chaos, probably, or at least uncertainty in france. could have been way worse. but we are still going to get a period of uncertainty in france, which might help the right for the next french presidential election in 2027. it might. in britain, you know, it's kind of the opposite problem. there's not going to be chaos. labour has a massive majority.

it's got two-thirds of the seats in parliament. that, of course, will embolden the left, the rest left, the old jeremy corbyns on the back benches. it is no drama starmer. borrowed from the no drama obama. he is a very calm man. i think he is a very pragmatic personality. he is not going to have any of the adolescent traits we saw with boris johnson and liz truss and others who have been wreaking such havoc on britain's future. but he has got his task cut out for him. this is not an easy job. britain is not in a good place. >> all right, ed, thank you. still ahead, former chair of the congressional black caucus,

democratic congresswoman joyce beatty, will join us as she says members of her party, quote, should not be going rogue against our own president. following his debate performance. "morning joe" will be right back. what if we don't get down in time to get a birthday gift for zoe? don't panic. with etsy we can find the perfect gift, and send her a preview right away. thanks guys. [ surprised scream ] don't panic. gift easy with etsy.

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i'm proud to be partnering with my good friend, lee greenwood. who doesn't love his song, "god bless the usa," in connection with promoting the god bless the usa bible. >> i'm thrilled to introduce you to something i'm incredibly proud of. my own brand of organic specialty coffee, rudy coffee. >> this is mike huckabee. isn't it amazing how so much of what president trump said still rings true? schools and the media don't want our kids to hear anything positive. that's why my team created the kids' guide to president trump. >> i'm sorry i'm so upset, but please help president trump. if you could afford 5 or 10

bucks. if you can't afford a dollar, fine, just pray. if you have money to give, give it. lindsey graham.com. >> it's as inspiring as oral roberts. >> my lord. >> up in the tower saying, "god is going to kill me if you don't give me $3 million." i think oral got the $3 million. there's jimmy. listen, that's a reach back. >> that's some parallel. >> good parallel right there. >> all right, that's -- >> i have to say, i've got a question. i've got a question here. >> for who? >> who do we have this hour, alex? >> it's the top of 7:00. we've got -- >> i'll ask heilemann. >> heilemann is here. >> i don't have young kids but,

you know, i'm just curious. so this trump book that our good friend mike huckabee is putting out, a coloring book. do we skip over the "grab 'em by the" chapter. >> do the kids color that in? >> how do they color that in? >> what do they do with that? >> is there a cutout of billy bush and donald trump. >> getting off a bus. >> maybe they do the bus instead of what is said inside the bus. what about the part where he says, "hey, we're going to shoot the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff"? do they have mark milley against the wall. do you color the rifles? what do the kids do for that? oh, i don't know, when he talks about, you know, e. jean carroll and that situation, what the judge said. >> told the lawyer he'd never

date her. >> yeah. told -- >> how is that -- >> said mika was bleeding badly from her face. >> i don't know if they'd put a tweet in. what would they do with the blood going down my face? >> there's so many. how about the, i'm going to suspend the constitution, terminate the constitution, which, of course, he lies about. >> this is a big children's book. >> i just am curious. how do we walk our children through all the chapters? i'm a little confused. >> joe, i'd take special pains, if you eventually find yourself with young children again, which, you know, who knows? anything could happen. you two with a magical couple. >> grandpa. >> i want to say, avoid the chapter, there's a chapter in there about trump's relationship with jeffrey epstein. stay away from that chapter, in particular. >> hold on. >> with your kids. >> wait a second. >> when they're dancing and stuff. >> are you saying that -- >> mark that one orgi island ch-

>> not appropriate for children. cross that off. >> reverend huckabee's book, we're going to keep the orgy island part out. >> what about, "i didn't sleep with a porn star?" >> okay, we'll keep that, porn star, out. >> how do they draw that? >> reverend huckabee. what about the kids' book, there's so much things the kids need to remember. we talked about the summary executions of the politically disloyal. okay. so we keep those parts out. >> right. yes, those parts out. >> how about throwing paper towels? >> there's a whole bunch of parts you want to leave out. then i would just, in general, even though they offer a version of that book that is a scratch and sniff, i'd avoid that entirely. don't do that one. >> oh, my god. >> don't do that. i don't want that. >> you are -- you just -- why? >> political columnist, joe

conason, "the longest con, how grifters, swindlers, and frauds hijacked american conservative." joe, come on. that medley right there, the montage, it's just like a softball right across the center of the plate for ya. tell us about the book. >> i was going to say, joe and mika, great to see you again. i could not have asked for a better intro than that montage. although, i would say, there's an endless amount of footage of the same kinds of stuff. >> endless. >> while i was listening to you and john here, i looked in the index of the book and found former governor huckabee. of course, he is in here as a guy who went into the business with his mailing list from his political presidential campaign to market a phony cancer cure. that was supposedly a spiritual cure, biblically-based fake

cancer cure. that is the kind of thing that has become rampant on the right in the last several decades. so the book sort of tells a story of how conservatives got to the point where they are milking their own constituents for every penny they can squeeze out of them on false pretenses in almost every case. the epitome of this, of course, is the former president, who booked a quarter of a billion dollars after the 2020 election by telling people he was going to set up an official election defense fund. of course, the money didn't go to that. but they pulled in hundreds of millions of dollars in two months after the election, and it was going -- it ended up in a superpac that he controls and that he can spend on anything, including, of course, his legal defense. not election defense, his legal defense, his personal legal

defense. but this is a syndrome, a problem on the right that lot of conservatives have discussed. the foreword to the book is by my friend george conway, who i think you guys know. he is an honest conservative. like many honest conservatives, is appalled by the dishonesty, the grifting, the scamming that is just rampant in their movement now. >> yeah. >> joe, i want to say, first of all, congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> it identifies grifters, swindlers, and frauds. the subtitle of the book. the book is "the longest con." how grifters, swindlers, and frauds hijacked american conservatism. it is clear they have. you point to trump, right, as the kind of the platonic ideal of grifter, swindler, and fraud

rolled into one. >> boss grifter, yeah. >> here's the thing, how? this is what this book promises, an explanation of not just a description that this is happening but how it's happened. >> right. >> it's probably more of a dissertation than a cable tv question in the morning, but what is the brief summary for how? how did that happen? >> it happened, john, began, i would say, in the heaviest form, after the goldwater campaign in 1964. a man named richard viguerie figured out that, suddenly, that goldwater amassed a lot of donors to his campaign. viguerie sent people to the capitol, women, who wrote down the names of the donors before the clerk of the house, stopped them, and suddenly had a big mailing list on magnetic tape. they could monetize those people with appeals to paranoia,

prejudice, fear. the whole list of appeals the far-right has used for many years. what they could do with that list was get them to send money. viguerie discovered, hey, we can get these people to send us money. that expanded, you know, in many directions since then. the basic appeal is the same. it's what roger stone said years ago, trump's top adviser. you know him. he said, you know, hate is the most powerful force in politics. if you can find a way to appeal to people's basis motives, they will support you. in this case, send you money. the two things, the two elements kind of have fused in poet the republican party and the conservative movement as a whole. >> the new book is "the longest con, how grifters, swindlers, and frauds hijacked american conser conservatism."

it goes on sale tomorrow. "new york times" best selling author, thank you. >> thank you, joe, so much. of course, donald trump is liable of massive fraud. remember the nfts, the cards? >> jack has an entire set. oh, wait, no, he doesn't. okay. >> i don't even get that. >> yeah. >> anywho, move on. another grift. president biden took his campaign to battleground pennsylvania yesterday. in the morning, he delivered remarks at a predominantly black church in philadelphia, where he touted his first term accomplishments and remained adamant about staying in the 2024 race. >> i've always felt the power of your faith, in good times and in tough times. the fact is, as scripture says, all things work together for good to those who love god and are called according to his purpose.

our purpose is to serve others. that's our purpose. to know everyone to be treated with dignity and respect. to know faith without works is dead. [ applause ] we're all called to be doers of the world. in this nation, that means keeping our eyes on the north star. the very idea of america, that we're all created equal in the image of god, and deserve to be treated with dignity and respect our entire lives. we'velived up to that, but we've never fully walked away from it either. that's because of you and generations before you who led the church from slavery to freedom. always praying, always believing that joy cometh in the morning. you've never given up. in my life and as your

president, i've tried to walk my faith. folks, i know with every fiber of my being, i know i look like i'm 40 years old, but i've been around a little bit. the bishop and i were talking about that. turned 40. all kidding aside, i've been doing this a long time. i, honest to god, have never been more optimistic about america's future, if we stick together. i really mean it. [ applause ] here's what else i've learned, and many of you have learned, you walk your faith, as well. we're all imperfect beings. we don't know where or what faith will deliver us to or when. what we do know is that we can seek a life of light, hope, love, and truth, no matter what. we can seek that life. take all of our experiences and give everything we have to work

together, because when we do, you can't stop us. i mean this sincerely. when i ran the first time for president, i said something basic. i said, we have to bring back dignity and hope in america. number one. number two, we have to give working class and middle class people like the family i came from a shot and build an economy from the middle out and the bottom up, not the top down. thirdly, we must unite america again. that's my goal. that's what we're going to do. god bless you all. may god protect our troops. >> joining the conversation, we have co-founder and ceo of axios, jim vandehei. senior political columnist for "politico," jonathan martin. and pulitzer prize winning author and presidential his historian doris kearns goodwin. >> jim vandehei, we have a split screen. we're almost "brady bunch" here.

jim vandehei, i've been talking this morning about what the base is saying. polls aren't quite as bad as a lot of democrats thought they were going to be. i have been absolutely bombarded by texts, we will just say, by people charitably, that others might call the elites, of course, we're not elites. as you know, i'm a poor country lawyer who falls off a turnip truck every morning and does this show. let's say these elites are good friends. but biden is going to lose. democracy is over. i think what's so fascinating is you really do have a divide. between elected leaders, between the rich and powerful, and then those, like, in the congressional black caucus, people in that philadelphia church where biden had one of his better events in a long

time, better days in a long time. there does seem to be a divide right now between sort of the establishment and the democratic base that appears to want to keep joe biden in the race. >> there's no doubt that there is a pretty big divide. i think there's a lot of house members, particularly those that are in swing states or in swing districts, who are deeply concerned, right? if there wasn't a real problem, if they weren't hearing from the base, if they weren't hearing from voters, you wouldn't have people huddling with hakeem jeffries yesterday, hearing calls for the president to step aside if it weren't real. that's what we're locked at. the president, you talked to him, light? he's not backing down. he's not getting out. he said that. he believes that. against a lot of democrats who are at their breaking point. there will be a lot more conversations today, but i don't agree it's just the elite media or just donors. members of congress are fundamentally about self-preservation. the self-preservation rests on the ability to get a majority of the vote.

when they're talking to their own voters, that's when they get this level of concern. that's why when you see senior members of the house delegation like you did on the call yesterday express concern, you can safely assume it is much more widespread. that doesn't mean that hakeem jeffries and chuck schumer go to the white house and beg the president to step aside. but it is possible. there is still enough concern that that pressure is on them. i think sometime in the next week, you'll have people like the obamas, people like jeffries or schumer, one way or another, come out and say emphatically that people should put a sock in it or the president should think seriously about stepping aside. >> all right. j-mart, what say you? you've been out and have seen what's been going on. there does seem to be a massive divide in the democratic party either way you cut this, and it

is good for donald trump. >> i wrote a column this morning about this divide. frankly, it is biden's last line of defense, joe. i think biden's playbook now is to try to rerun 2019 and 2020, where he effectively framed the opposition to him as that coming from white liberals while he had the grassroots base of blacks, latinos, and labor. i think that's what he is trying to do now. he has no other choice. this is his only path out. it does increase, i think, the relevance of the cbc in this entire dynamic this week. biden is putting so much stock in this defense from black lawmakers and black folks in the grassroots, that if any of them do turn, it is going to be all the more decisive against biden. joe, i couldn't help but notice, on the call yesterday that jim mentioned, you know, all the ranking members who called for biden to step aside, with one exception, were white. what i want to know is, will

there be defections in the black caucus? what's happening, folks like maxine waters and jim clyburn are emphatically for biden. it sends a message to the younger members to stick on board. can biden retain that support this week? if he can, it'll be crucial. >> in a moment, we'll talk to joyce beatty, the former chair of the congressional black caucus, to get some insight there. doris kearns goodwin, i'm curious, what parallels? have we seen this movie before, slightly in any way? also, what you thought of the president's speech at the church in philadelphia. >> i thought the speech was a good one, but i think there has to be a lot more like it. i've been living this weekend thinking of franklin roosevelt in 1944. my mind goes back to there. he was suffering from health problems. his color was bad. he had a heart condition. he looked much older than his 62

years. people were worried about whether he was ready for the campaign. he acknowledged that. he knew people were worried about it, so he went out to prove he was able to do this. the first thing he did was make a major speech before the teamsters union. all the democratic leaders were there, some worried, and it was a fabulously arousing speech. it ended with the great closing comment. he said, "i know the republicans are attacking me, and i'm okay with that. i know they're attacking my wife. she's okay with that. they're attacking my sons. they're okay with that. but they're attacking my dog, a sensitive dog, and it's been tough." the audience went wild. even the republicans had to laugh. he showed he could come back. he's only 62 at this time, making a comment about his age. then he realized he had to go out among the people and campaign. all day long, 7:00 in the morning to 12:00 at night, went through every borough of new

york. there was a drenching rain. there had been a hurricane. he insisted the top not be on the car. he had -- drenched with rain, waving to people, smiling the magnetic smile. hundreds of thousands of people saw him. then he had to change his clothes three times in the middle of it. he had to go to eleanor's house to have a bourbon and keep him going. he had two, three. no wonder he went to the dinner that night in good spirits. he showed he could do it. followed it with ten press conferences that fall, many, many more speeches. it was hard for him. he wasn't in the greatest of health. but he won the election. he realized he had to prove it. i think that's the important point. there's no point in just saying there's a divide. these people are for me p others are for me. the president has to acknowledge now that something happened with the debate. not just the debate itself, but there are pressures on him. he has to prove himself. it'll be hard because he is also the president. he'll show it with nato. when you're the president, you don't have as much time to campaign. he has to realize he has to communicate, just as he did in

the speech yesterday, over and over again, to prove this was simply an episode and not a condition, as nancy pelosi said. >> that is, nancy pelosi, that is the question. you know, was it an episode? is it a condition? >> absolutely. >> most people i've spoken with, regardless of what position they're taking, mika, they do think it is a condition. a condition of some sort at some stage. that, again, remains the great unanswered question. >> yeah. i think he may have some age-related issues, and it is worth asking and knowing about them. >> yeah. >> but the speech doris was just talking about, we have that. let's take a look. >> all right. >> these republican leaders have been attacking me, my wife, and my sons.

not content with that. they now include my little dog falla. as soon as he learned the republican fiction writers in congress and out had concocted a story that i'd left him behind on an allusion island, his soul was furious. [ laughter ] he has not been the same dog since. >> aw. >> so, john heilemann, roosevelt, of course, survived that challenge, picked harry truman as vice president, was dead within a year. the question is, how does joe biden convince -- again, this is the question. again, doris brought it up.

nancy pelosi brought it up. others have brought it up. was it an episode? is it a condition? most people, you look at the polls and, again, the polls remain tight, which really speaks as much to how much the majority of americans loathe the thought of donald trump being re-elected again, but that question still hangs out there between 70% and 80% of americans thinking joe biden is too old to run for re-election. so how does he address this issue? can't be quite as glib as fdr there was with his little dog. >> yeah, i think, joe, yesterday, adam schiff was on one of the morning shows. he made the point that if you thought about how terrible donald trump is, convicted criminal and all the other things you could say, that the fact that -- it shouldn't even be close. the race should be a slam dunk. the fact that it is so close --

this is adam schiff speaking -- said, you know, the only reason the race is close is because of joe biden's age and the concerns about his age. what his age means is not a number. his age is the people's perception of whether or not he is strong, agile, nimble, alert, clear, decisive, et cetera, focused, to be able to continue to be commander in chief for the next four years. the reason why the debate had the impact it had on a lot of people was that a lot of people looked at the debate performance and said, my god, no. that is not the picture of a man who has those capacities. i think the stephanopoulos interview was not -- everyone would acknowledge it was not as bad as the debate, but i don't hear a lot of people who saw it and thought they walked away saying, all my concerns are revolved. the reason i mention both things, a thing chris murphy said yesterday and adam schiff said, a lot of democrats said, which i think is right, is if joe biden is going to stay on the ticket, he's going to have to do, not a lot more events

where he gives a rousing speech on a teleprompter. he's going to have to do a lot more of those interactions, where he'll have to do more interviews, things they have shy shied away from. historically low interviews with the press. take the bubble wrap off joe biden. for voters for whom this is what is holding them back from supporting joe biden, and there are a meaningful number of those, the only way he is going to get over the hurdle, to show people, yes, i am all of the things that signify fitness, mental fitness, to be able to do this job for another four years, is for people to see him in those kinds of settings. that's why the debate was so -- dealt such a devastating blow. he's got to get out and be able to show people in spontaneous circumstances that he is able to handle those circumstances with energy and alacrity. without that, the concerns are going to doom him. >> right. >> all right. joining us now, chairwoman of

the -- former chairwoman of the congressional black caucus, congresswoman joyce beatty of ohio. she's an advisory board member for the biden/harris campaign and is calling on her colleagues to continue to support the president. i'm wondering if you're hearing back from your colleagues, whether or not they will support president biden. >> first of all, let me just say thank you. and, yes, yesterday, as a matter of fact, i just returned from being in new orleans at the essence festival and conference where many of us took to the stage before the vice president spoke. we sent a clear message, joined with our chairman and congresswoman maxine waters, we are 100% with the president. we are standing up with the biden/harris team because they have delivered for protecting our freedom and our democracy. we know this is the most

consequential election in our lifetime. we know what's at stake. we're making sure that we crisscross the united states, making sure that we say to the american people, let's not judge our president on a 90-minute performance. you have to look at 3 1/2 years. you have to look at his lifetime of commitment and what's at stake and what the alternatives are. someone who is -- about retribution. >> that is the question. >> someone who is about revenge. someone who wants to be a dictator. i think we have to continue to stand together. he has had overwhelming support by black americans, and so i stand with joe biden and kamala harris. >> jonathan martin is with us and has a question. jonathan? >> congresswoman, jonathan martin here. curious if you could speak to the generational dynamics within the cbc and, particularly, the

role that the more senior folks like maxine waters and jim clyburn play, and how much their perspective matters in shaping the public and private sentiments of the younger members of the caucus. >> we have a very diverse congressional black caucus, and certainly, people like maxine waters and jim clyburn, they're historians. they provide great leadership and also mentorship. they relate very well to our younger members. we have a young member of congress from the great state of ohio, my state. she has been very strong, very forceful, and she is supporting president biden. another younger member, shontel brown and amelia sykes, both black women, active members of the cbc. shontel also serves as an adviser. we have people like jasmine crockett, progressive, very much joined us in new orleans 100%

supporting joe biden. i think it is not just about the differences in our age, it's about what he is delivering. when you look at what black americans and americans are asking for, they're concerned about health care. they're concerned about the economy and jobs and education. president biden has delivered on those things. i mean, think about it. what he has done, more than 15 million jobs. and black americans are in those jobs. when you think about capping insulin at $35 a month, do you know how many black individuals are dealing with being diabetic? i'm diabetic, i know. putting a $2,000 cap on medical costs for our seniors, these are the things that people should be looking at. and we've been here before. in 2020, there were polls, people who were saying that biden couldn't win, couldn't win. when you look at the thing about

age, he was the same age when he delivered the state of the union address a few months ago, and members stood up in that chamber and applauded him for his delivery, for his work, and for his presentation. let's not get it twisted. let's not deal with just the last 90 minutes of a debate. a debate against someone who is a dictator, someone who lies repeatedly, and someone who didn't answer any of the questions either. we didn't have media and other folks saying, let's challenge or question trump on his ability to lead. maybe that's because we know he won't and he can't lead. >> congresswoman, jim vandehei at "axios." the members of congress who have called, your colleagues who have called for him to step aside, what they would say is, right, we agree, if you look backward, everything you just said squares with their view. i think their concern is that it wasn't just a blip.

they've watched the president, especially over the last three months, and he does seem like getting older is starting to take a toll. they wonder, often on behalf of their voters, can he really do this at 82, 83, 84, 85, 86? you feel 100% certain that you can look at your colleagues and look at voters and say, yes, he's sharp as ever, and i am highly, highly confident he can do this gig five years henceforth? >> let me answer like this. first of all, he was asked, was it an episode or condition? he said he was an episode. he was sick. he had a cold. he had a bad day. he admitted that. that's the first step. someone admits he had a bad day, made a mistake. we all have. the second thing, none of those individuals are medical doctors. i support the president. i believe that it was an episode. i believe that he had a bad day. i believe that he is ready and positioned to run to be president in this november election. life is not promised to any of

us, but what i am saying, let's get through this election. let's support this president because he is our very best option to beat donald trump. he is the only one, unequivocally, who has a reputation of delivering. someone who has delivered for the american people, black, white, and other. so, yes, i can look at my colleagues and say, "i stand with joe biden going into the convention. as a delegate, i'm going to support him. i stand with joe biden as being our next president with kamala harris standing right next to him as our vice president." >> former chair of the congressional black caucus, democratic congresswoman joyce beatty of ohio. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you so much. i want to quakequickly go aroun everyone here. john heilemann, if the black

caucus, the hispanic caucus stands shoulder to shoulder with joe biden, what does that mean for his survival? >> well, i think that if those were -- if that were the case, it would be hard to imagine in that circumstance that hakeem jeffries or jim clyburn, two of, i think, the pivotal voices that could have a conversation with biden that he'd take seriously about stepping down, i think it is unlikely that jeffries or jim clyburn would have that conversation with joe biden if the cbc and the congressional hispanic caucus were uniformly in favor of him staying in. >> right. j-mart, what do you say? >> i think it's crucial. i think that this week is going to be what makes or breaks joe biden. i think if his supports stay strong, joe, within the cbc, no defections, i think biden is going to pursue exactly the defense i mentioned in my column

this morning, which is framing this as white liberal elites who never liked me against my base of working folks and the black community. that's going to be the biden playbook. i think it could hold up. again, it puts a premium on any defections at all. if he loses a handful of folks from the cbc, it'll be that much more devastating, joe, to biden. >> jim vandehei, question to you. i mean, if the congressional black caucus stays with him, the democratic hispanic caucus stays with him, is he going to look to them, or is he going to look to billionaire donors, hollywood moguls, et cetera? i ask the question in a way that the question answers itself, probably because the question answers itself. joe biden is going to say, this is the same exact thing that happened to me in 2020. why should i step down? >> listen, there's only a handful of people in america that he is going to listen to about stepping down, right? he's not going to listen to rank

and file members of congress. he's going to listen to the elected leaders. he might listen to the obamas. he might listen to ted kaufman or chris dodd, maybe his inner circle. those are the people who could persuade him. right now, he is 100% dig in. he is not posturing. i don't think he ever really opened the door and said he was considering stepping down. i think what he told people is, i'm aware of the gravity of the situation. i'm aware that i have to prove my capabilities in the weeks ahead. he says that is what he is going to do. that is his mindset. the only thing that breaks the mindset would be a true tour deforce with a lot of members, a lot of friends saying it is time to go. we're just not there yet. >> okay. it's just so interesting, doris. what he has to prove versus what he has accomplished. what he's accomplished in his first term is historic. what he has to prove is if he can finish a sentence. i mean, joe biden mangles sentences. that's not new.

>> i know. what i think we have to think about is, i'm not sure it is so helpful for him to make a divide in the party and say these are the elites going after me. he has to generate enthusiasm. it's not just a question of survival. he needs all the people to come back and say, yes, we're watching him now. we're seeing that he does have this capacity. it is true that as president you don't have to debate. it is true that as president, you're judged by what you get done, as he has done an extraordinary amount. you're talking to people on the phone that are foreign leader. he's shown he can do all that. he has to show in order to get the enthuiasm he still has it. one of the things i said about roosevelt after the teamster speech and after he was out all day, ten press conferences, the master still has it. the champ still has it. i think it's not just acknowledging to people privately that he has to do something. he has to acknowledge it publicly and say, i'll do it. and show he can do it. he has to get out and get in unscripted situations.

if his mind can -- and he can probably be challenged by that. that's what happened to roosevelt. he got sharper during that period of time. he knew he was under attack. we can't just be talking about the survival. we have to talk about his enthusiast going forward. >> historian doris kearns goodwin, thank you so much. "an unfinished love story, personal history of the 1960s," is out now. fabulous. "politico's" jonathan martin, thank you very much. we'll be reading j-mart's piece online now. >> thank you so much. even though you laughed at my characterization of being a simple country lawyer. >> he laughs right at you, joe. he laughs to your face, not behind your back. >> with you, with you. >> of course you are. >> look at him. >> i'm with you. go tigers. >> jim vandehei, we'll be reading the latest installment of your "behind the curtain" column, along with mike allen. this is on, quote, "trump's dream regime."

>> frightening stuff right there. >> that's a good one. like a horror story. still ahead on "morning joe," with the nato summit set to get under way in washington tomorrow, our next guest says america's adversaries are staying quiet for now. even as our politics get more chaotic. david ignatius joins us next with more on that. plus, the latest from israel amid new hopes for a cease-fire deal with hamas. what biden administration officials are saying about a possible breakthrough. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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can buy one unlimited line and get one free for a year. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. a far-right takeover of the french government was denied yesterday after projections -- >> again. >> yes. >> again. >> after projections showed voters turn to the left-wing new popular front party during the second round of voting in the snap elections called by president macron. macron's alliance earned the second highest amount of votes ahead of the far-right national rally party that had been in the lead entering yesterday. however, no party was able to secure an outright majority. joining us now, "new york times" paris bureau chief roger cohen. >> roger! >> how you doing?

>> roger, we keep doing this, where we will read for two or three weeks that the republic is teetering on the brink. le pen is about to be elected president. it's 50/50. she loses 58% to 42%. then the same thing just happened with the parliamentary elections. we were looking at amajority, and then in the states around 5:00, we're shocked to see her party finishes behind macron's party. walk us through this. what -- not only what happened yesterday but what's happened the last couple years in these two elections? >> well, it is a question of, again, as you said, joe, very pertinently, every time france in the end is not ready to go for some kind of far right

nationalist adventure. it's not ready, as britain was, for brexit. it's not ready, as we were, for a trump presidency. no, it holds the line. this is what happened this time, too. everything indicated the national rally was, if not going to get an absolute majority, going to be comfortably the largest party in the national assembly. it did not happen. >> right. >> the center macron party and the left in the second round run of voting landed together, unified in order to beat the national rally candidate in as many constituencies as possible. the end result was the left, which is also very critical of macron, came in first. macron, while he lost about a third of his seats in parliament, it was no victory, did not suffer a complete humiliation. >> so the question now is, i mean, and, of course, everybody is immediately jumping to the

conclusions the second these results came in that france would be deadlocked for the next few years. i'm wondering, is there any chance, can macron draw an inside straight and somehow get enough of the center left to work with him, as well as the center right, some republicans to work with him to cobble together a working coalition? >> france will get a bit of an experience of being italy or the netherlands or belgium, working over weeks and weeks in the parliament to try and form a governing coalition, which is really not the french way. the fifth republic was set up to make sure that that did not happen. but i think that's one of the upshots of this. politics is going to move back to the national assembly, back to the parliament. macron is going to have to retreat from his very top-down,

personal, presidential way of running things, and accept that there's going to be messy negotiations over many weeks. the french go to the beach in august, and we have the olympics coming. whether there will be a government before september, i don't know. macron will have to draw in the moderate left, the moderate right, and the center if they're going to get, somehow, to the magic number of 289 seats, which gives you a majority in the assembly. >> extraordinary pictures out of paris last night. >> yeah. >> again, nobody, nobody could have predicted this. nobody would have predicted this. again, just like the presidential race last year, what was supposed to be close ended up being a blowout. here, david ignatius, let me bring you in. the idea that macron's coalition would have ahead of le pen's, the national rally party, just shocking. just a political earthquake in

and of itself. nobody would have expected that. roger is with us in paris. give us your thoughts and if you want to ask roger a question, he is there and waiting. >> so, macron pulling this off, it was not expected. it does show, as roger says, durability of the french center, the resistance to really crazy right-wing politics that's still there. roger, i want to ask you, as i look at these results, it seems to me that a stalemate in french politics is a significant possibility. i'm wondering what that might mean for france's position in dealing with russia and russian aggression in ukraine, standing with ukraine. is france going to be a weaker partner now for other nato countries in resisting the russian advance?

>> well, david, i think that if we get a long period of limbo and there's some kind of italian style, long negotiation, then that can probably only weaken president macron's position on the international stage. the far left has actually been, and left, has been firm on ukraine. has said we support ukraine and support bringing president vladimir putin to justice in an international court. but a very divided france, a near ungovernable france as it appears today, at a moment when, we're four months at the u.s. election in which former president trump is now the favorite, that is a situation where you have two permanent members of security council, two nuclear powers that may be in

unstable or difficult situations over the coming months. and i think for international stability particularly combustible moment with a war in europe and the middle east, that could be challenging. >> paris bureau chief for "the new york times" roger cohen, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning with your insights. we appreciate it. >> thank you, roger. all right. coming up some of donald trump's vp contenders are weighing in on the concerns that the former president will go after his political rivals if he wins in november. we'll show you that in new sound ahead on "morning joe." we're back in two minutes. ead o. we're back in two minutes.

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columnist and associate editor for the "washington post" david ignatius still with us as well. >> david, what's on the agenda this week at nato? >> so, joe, the nato agenda, as at the last few sessions, is going to focus on ukraine. there is a plan to install a special envoy for nato who would be in kyiv permanently, coordinating nato training, supply of ukrainian army that would be modernized and built along nato lines. exactly how that's going to be done, contributions that are going to be made, the last i

checked had not been agreed the last communique is being hammered out and maybe more important is the question of when, if ever, ukraine becomes a member of nato, the last summit talked about a bridge membership. there will be discussion of that. what i would underline is that this 75th anniversary gathering of nato in washington was planned to be a validation of president joe biden and his leadership of nato. and he has done an incredible job. and taking an alliance that was fractured, fragmented when he began as president, pulling back together as two more members, fought for aid for ukraine, unfortunately, as i talk to people, this week's session is going to be full of sort of anxiety, uncertainty that we're feeling in the united states about what the future leadership

of the united states is with biden now is so much political difficulty. sadly, it will be very different from what the white house planned. >> it will be a good opportunity for everybody to talk to biden, to the u.s. president, get their eyes on him and draw their conclusions. so, matthew, some stats came out over the weekend talking about russian casualties, russian losses. the numbers just staggering. more russians killed in this war than every war combined since world war ii, since world war ii. ann applebalm drawing the conclusion that there's no way that russia can continue with just this endless slaughter of their soldiers without help from useful idiots in the west. i'm curious, what are your thoughts on those numbers and how sustainable the continued

losses are for the russians. >> good morning, joe. good morning, mika. i think that russia can't sustain this war for more than another year or two, which is why this nato summit is so critical to sure up ukraine so that ukraine keeps bleeding effectively bleeding russia. as roger mentioned before, one of the big problems is that two of ukraine's most outspoken supporters, macron and biden, are severely wounded at this point. and i would hope that biden uses this summit to announce some very bold new initiatives. the biden administration has taken a very cautious approach with the war in ukraine, raising the temperature very slowly. however, now is the time to really ramp things up. and that means there are still way too many restrictions on what ukrainians can do with weapons.

we're still not providing them with nearly the amount of patriot missile systems that they need. and one other thing that biden really should focus on in this nato summit is the incredible imbalance where you have 32 members and the united states providing two thirds of the military might and spending of this entire organization. i think with both france and the united states looking a little bit wobbly, i think it's high time that the germans step up. germany is the only country with the population base, the industrial base, the technological base and of course the money to really become a secondary european anchor for nato. and unfortunately they've been afraid of their own nazi shadow. and i think it's time for them to put the past to rest and to really step into the breach here. >> matthew, this is david

ignatius in washington. just following up on mika's question to you initially. the russians are losing just a staggering number of troops in this campaign. and i sometimes wonder if vladimir putin is just holding on, hoping, hoping that donald trump becomes president and delivers some kind of peace agreement, forces a peace agreement that's very concessionary to russia. do you get that feeling as you look at europe, that europe's in a sense now increasingly waiting for trump and the changes that trump would bring? >> yes, absolutely. and that's why it's time for the biden administration to really take off the gloves because russia is not going to retaliate. now is the time for us to ramp up aid to ukraine. >> former "wall street journal" reporter matthew brzezinski and

"the washington post" david ignatius. thank you both very much for your insights on that. up next on "morning joe," we'll go back to capitol hill for the very latest on the growing concern among some house democrats about joe biden's re-election campaign. we're back in just 90 seconds. cn we're back in just 90 seconds.

[ put a little love in your heart by david ruffin begins to play ] my bad, my bad. good race. - you too. you were tough out there. thank you. i'm getting you next time though. oh i got you, i got you. down goes jewett. jewett and amos are down. what a lovely sign of sportsmanship. you okay? yeah. ♪ ♪ you know, i've been doing this a long time. and i honest to god have never more optimistic about america's

future, if we stick together. i really mean it. here is what else i've learned, many of you have learned, you walk your faith as well. we're all imperfect beings. we don't know where or what fate will deliver us to or when. what we do know is that we can seek a life of light, hope, love and truth no matter what. we can seek that life. take all our experiences and give everything we have to work together. because when we do, you can't stop us. i mean this sincerely. >> president biden speaking at a church in philadelphia over the weekend as he faces a critical week for the future of his campaign. calls for him to bow out of the race continue from some democratic members of congress, as well as members of the donor class. this comes as the president is set to lead the nato summit this

week in washington. and donald trump is lying low for the most part. >> where is he? >> he's disappeared. >> where is he? >> he's not around. >> why are they hiding him? are they afraid that he may go out and talk about world war ii coming or barack obama being president. or will he go -- >> he definitely convinced -- >> why are they afraid? why are they afraid to let him talk? they're going -- all their allies are going, oh, joe biden. what are they hiding? what are they scared of? and donald trump. he's burrowed down in mar-a-lago. they won't let him out. he's a prisoner in a gilded cage because they're afraid he may actually open his mouth. >> and of course, chances of lying are high. >> the irony. well, you know what they found

was, as badly as joe biden did. he did horrifically. you look at the polls and even "the new york times" see yen that poll, has always been an outlier against biden, shows that even with that terrible performance, he picked up independent voters against donald trump. right? so what are they doing with donald trump? they're keeping him out of sight until the republican convention. maybe, who knows, maybe his handlers, maybe his bosses will let him out this week. but right now, they're saying no. no, man. you have to stay right there. you can't talk. people hate you. like independents hate you. swing voters hate you. like, just be quiet and you may win this thing. it's kind of crazy really. >> well, this is -- it's been a crazy week in many ways. with us we have nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, a partner and chief political columnist at puck.

managing editor at the bullwork, sam stein. and u.s. national editor at the financial times, ed loose is with us. >> there's so much to talk about here. i want to talk about american politics. what happened in france yesterday -- >> wow. >> whoa. what a political earthquake. here, once again, the media -- it's just like the red wave talk. there's going to be a red wave. there's going to be a red wave. there's going to be a red wave. there's going to be a red wave. no, there's not, voters, said. a couple years ago, ed -- >> this is a huge story. really quickly, what did we hear a couple weeks ago? la pen. la pen. la pen. the far right is going to win. it is the end of frabs. this is the same exact nonsense we heard two years ago in the presidential race when it was too close to call.

macron had approve ratings in the mid ratings. he won. the same thing happened yesterday. macron in a great place? no, he's not. but who is in a worse place right now, la far from getting majority, they finished in third place. what happened? >> well, if the french electorate had a whole week in this two-round voting system to figure out tactical voting, and they did figure it out. they -- macron's candidates dropped out where they came third. the left candidates dropped out where they came third. they all agreed on one candidate to fight the far right. and it worked. people -- voters understand that system. and i think it is quite a good system because, you know, you have round one where people express outrage or their

preference. round two they have to think and face reality. what kind of government do we actually want. and from three quarters of french voters is not a neo-fascist government. >> neo-fascism not in this week in france. and like wise, across the channel, just an absolute historic drubbing of the torys, the conservative party there. john heilemann, after joe biden's debate, i said he needed to consider getting out, but i said also for a guy who's been in politics for 50 years, who has been in public service for over 50 years, we need to give him time. we need to give him some time. oh, there it is. for a man who's given more than 50 years of his life to public service in public service, it is more than fair to take a breath

or see what happens over the next few days. that has turned into a week and a half. here we are. i find it absolutely fascinating. we'll get to the bloomberg polls. i talked about the siena poll shows donald trump losing independents after joe biden's debate performance. but joe biden now has what i would dream of having if i were running for president of the united states of america. i have washington insiders against me. joe biden now can say he's having to fight media elites, "new york times" editorial page, billionaire donors, they've been on the phone for a week and a half. washington politicians even though mark warner canceled his meeting. the congressional black caucus not happy with all these people trying to substitute their elitist viewpoints for that of

millions of democratic primary voter. hollywood moguls. are there, ari and ms. disney. and of course, maga extremists. now, this is what they're going to say. oh, wait a second. so you're telling me media elites and billionaire donors and washington politicians and washington moguls, they all think they can substitute their judgment for the judgment of millions of democratic primary voters? john heilemann, it may happen. and this isn't about what ought to be -- this is about what is. and, you know, joe biden has a fired up, angry, democratic base in parts. and he's got a lot of elites putting him in a position where he can look strong staring them down. so, where are we this monday morning as we go into one of the more pivotal weeks in american politics? >> well, i think, joe, that the

idea that the way that you framed it which is the way the biden campaign is trying to frame it also is that joe biden is being defiant in the face of out of touch elites across the spectrum who are trying to force him out of the race and that's a good fight to have. i think that there is one -- if we move away from the rhetorical framing of it and into the more substantive reality of it is that one of those categories of elites is our elected officials. and elected officials who represent a whole bunch of voters who are paying attention to what voters are saying. we don't know yet what members of the house who have come back to washington what they heard the time they were home over the recess, the entire period, debate all through last week and i imagine that all these house members have a pretty good finger-tip feel for what's going on at home, what they're hearing from their voters. i think they're not -- they are to the extent that some of them would like biden to step down, as you know yesterday, there's -- there were more calls

on this call that hakeem jeffries did yesterday four ranking members of democratic committees on the house side who came out and said that biden should -- on that call at least they wanted biden to step aside. couple more who said pretty profound concerns about it. i think those people are unlike in reality, unlike you can say about billionaire donors they are billionaire donors and obviously would like to win, like to see their money that they're putting in behind joe biden that be for a candidate that they can win. but i do think that biden's biggest challenge right now is not even the donor class, certainly isn't the media. we can talk what the media's role in all this is. but i do think their biggest channel is his party on capitol hill which joe biden clearly cares about, he is essentially in playing chicken with members of congress. and they are in a staring match right now. a lot of people on the hill would like bietden to step aside. they do not want to come out and say that. biden is saying, if you want me out, you have to come out and say it.

if i had to say what i thought the ultimate dynamic here would be, does there come a day in the course of the next week where the following four people, chuck schumer and nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, hakeem jeffries, alone or together either literally or figuratively go to joe biden and say you lost the party and we don't see a path forward. we think it would be best if you stepped aside. if that conversation happens, i think it would be hard for joe biden to go forward. if it doesn't happen, it's a whole different kettle of fish. >> i think it's unlikely that's going to happen. i think it's unlikely it's going to happen because you talk again to members of the democratic base, you talk to members of the congressional black caucus, you talk to a lot of core democratic voters, you even look for anecdotal evidence, a lot of angry democrats out there. who are asking why these people are trying to substitute their judgment for joe biden's or for

the millions of voters who voted for joe biden. so, you know, it's -- it could happen. it could happen. but i suspect that these house members -- and i started to suspect this a couple days ago, mika, that these house members were probably hearing back in their home districts what i heard when i was vacationing with my kids -- >> that they were screaming in the church in philadelphia. >> or what they're yelling in the church in philadelphia, but when i was with my kids and the window was rolled down and a couple different people go, hey, joe, leave biden alone. >> thank you. >> that was like in the day or two after the debate. and it's anecdotal. everything is anecdotal. but i had enough calls from elites over the last couple weeks who want him out and enough calls from members of the sort of democratic rank and file, they don't -- they're not ready for him to get out.

they're wondering why the elites are splitting the party. i think part of it is they don't have confidence that kamala harris is going to do any better than joe biden in wisconsin, in michigan, and in pennsylvania. >> we're going to hear more from ryan nobles latest reporting on what's going on with this on capitol hill. most polls still show a competitive race between joe biden and donald trump. even after last month's debate. the latest survey from bloomberg news and morning consult finds every battleground state within the margin of error. aside from pennsylvania, according to the poll, trump narrowly leads among registered voters in arizona, georgia, nevada, north carolina and is ahead by a larger margin in the keystone state biden, meanwhile, holds small leads in michigan and wisconsin. separate polling from cbs news

and yougov the race tied among likely voters the same as it was in may. polling from siena college and "new york times" trump leading by a wider gap among registered. that showed independents moving toward biden. >> so sam stein, mika will tell you, i do this show and then i just, you know, dig a hole and go into it. and sleep for about 20 hours and come back and do the show. i do not, as you know, you have known me a long time, i do not work the phones. i just don't. i do not -- i'm not like, what's happening? what are you hearing? i just don't do that. i got four kids and i get four hours. and i read for the most part. >> and nobody knows nothing any way. >> and nobody knows nothing any way. i have been on the phone nonstop for two weeks. and it is so interesting that

after the debate, everybody was in meltdown mode, including the campaign talking about how they had heard that -- talked to the most powerful democrats who all believed after the debate they were going to see biden down by ten points. they all believed the small dollar donors were going to dry up. they all believed it was a matter -- it reminded me so much of when sam donaldson got on abc news right after monica, after that news came out, and said bill clinton wouldn't last a week because everybody in official washington said bill clinton wouldn't last a week. it reminded me of access hollywood when everybody said, you know, including mike lee, i would never support such a man or let anybody talk to my wife or -- you know, the guy that's

at the front of the national front carrying that flag. but we heard it was over then. i must say, on that phone all day yesterday, i was hearing just the opposite. i was hearing the opposite from campaign, from democratic donors and especially from members of the congressional black caucus, what? the polls are the same. we're with joe. why are these people picking on him? i'm just reporting. i'm sure you heard the same thing. they were -- actually the biden campaign went from a week ago saying it's all over to yesterday going, oh my god. we feel energized. especially with fetterman and kc going around with him. he said it was one of his best days on the campaign trail in 2020 or 2024. >> i'm glad to hear you're working the phones again. we need you out there. i too was also working the phones.

i talked to -- to your point, i talked to a member of congress yesterday about what the reaction was in his home district. and he said it was about an 80 to 20 split. 80% of his correspondents with voters saying biden needs to stick it out. people are being too rude, too mean, trying to push him out. 20% of respondents were about panicked about biden's position, worried about the election. the split was even more interesting because of who he was talking to. predominantly african-american voters were the ones who wanted biden to stick with it. and more middle upper class white voters were the ones that tend to be more panicy. that gets at the place we're in right now, where you see the base of the party, the bedrock constituencies, the cbs members saying biden should stick around. they're offering the support to him. coming out vocally saying he needs to stay. you saw representative clyburn

who matters tremendously in this whole process put out a supportive statement the other day, too. there are obviously major pockets of discontent and fear within the party you saw about nine members total now said they want biden to drop the race. look, i don't think that's a great position necessarily for the party. it's fine for biden. but when 20% of your party is skiddish, that's not great. but it is survivable if biden chooses and wants to survive it. i think the main distinctions that we should talk about with respect to the prior situations, the bill clinton, the access hollywood moments is that the question surrounding biden is not whether this was, you know, a momentarily lapse of judgment, it's whether he has the abilities, the mental acuity to forge the campaign forward. and he has to go out there and prove it like he did yesterday, not just yesterday but every single day. i think the press scrutiny has

been tremendous, arguably unfair, but that's what happens when you have a debate like he did. that will be the case for everyday forward. can he sustain it, can he get rid of those concerns? that will be the true test for biden. coming up, ed luce weighs in on the big roll that donors may have on what comes next for biden. biden's unavoidable time bomb and we'll run through it next on "morning joe." ning joe." - so this is pickleball? - pickle! ah, these guys are intense. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? kids love summer break, but parents? well... care.com makes it easy to find background checked childcare that fits your summer schedule. from long term to short notice. give yourself a break this summer. go to care.com now. liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. with all the money i saved

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we're not talking ed luce, about what ought to be. that is not our job here. except when it is. but this morning, with joe biden's future in the balance, in the democratic party's future in the balance, america's future in the balance, we're talking about what is. now, i know that you have come out saying he needed to step down. i know i said the day after the debate, he needed to consider stepping down. i said, let's give him some time. let's see what would happen. but other people -- tom freedman who very much respects joe biden. >> richard haass. >> richard haass, some very thoughtful people have said the same thing you said, he should step down. here we are about ten days later. it seems the base is rallying around him. what do you think -- i'm going to ask you, what do you think ought to happen and then what do

you think will happen? >> well, joe, i'm very mindful of this talk of the base versus the elites. i hate to identify myself with the elites. particularly since i've been foreign elites. as you can probably see from driving english rain behind me, i'm sitting across the atlantic. so i'm going -- not i'm going to repeat in my view that biden ought to step down. i think it's worth looking at the immovable object and the unstoppable force here. and i think the immovable object is president joe biden. in that stephanopoulos interview, he's not going to step down. and the unstoppable force is people like, as we saw yesterday, on the morning shows, senator chris murphy, soon to be senator adam schiff, and more and more democratic voices i

guess from the elites, the elected elites, are getting more and more worried about a trump -- biden's ability to sustain a campaign. so, something has to give because these two factors considering another ten days from now is going to be extremely damaging. i don't know how it's going to end up. it is conceivable that come the second debate on september 10th, biden will still be the nominee and he will perform well and will have a good night. that's quite conceivable. i do think, though, this is more than just his lifelong. i think that he sometimes forgets, as we saw in these recent interviews, he sometimes forgets the point he's making. he does stare quite vacantly. he's often inaudible. and i don't know how he fixes that. there could be bad moments, but

there have got to be fewer and lot more vigorous moments. the final point i would make is that if god all mighty is the only person who could remove him from being the nominee, i think there is another and that is the donor base. i think if the money does start to dry up, that will concentrate minds. i don't know whether that will happen, though. and i hope this situation doesn't persist for too long either way. coming up, the view from capitol hill. nbc's ryan nobles is there everyday. he joins us next with the very latest on which democrats are defecting from president biden. defecting from president biden this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop?

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capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. ryan, what's the very latest? >> well, mika and joe, i think there's no doubt this will be a crucial week for the president with both the house and the senate returning to capitol hill after more than two weeks over the 4th of july holiday. and of course, we spent a lot of time talking to many of these democrats in the house and the senate to get their pulse of what comes next from joe biden. and what i think you really see playing out here is that there are very few congressional democrats, as evidenced by the fact that only six or seven have come forward publicly stating they want joe bide on the get out of the race, but there's a lot more saying it privately. they don't want to get in a position where they publicly have to get into a confrontation with joe biden. what i was most struck by in my conversations with democrats after the interview on friday night with george stephanopoulos the president seemed dug in and that frustrated a lot of these house democrats in particular because they don't want to get into a standoff with joe biden. it gets to the point where they have to come out publicly, chuck

schumer, hakeem jeffries, if other congressional leaders have to come out to the cameras and publicly tell joe biden it's time to step down, then the race might already be lost because that puts them in a position where if joe biden doesn't step down, that will be used against him as the campaign moves forward. it's going to be used as an attack by republicans. and the democratic party will be in a very difficult situation. so what you see playing out here and i had many democrats say this over and over again, is this family conversation. there's a family conversation obviously happening within the biden family itself. but there's also a family conversation that's taking place in both the house democratic caucus and in the senate democratic caucus where each one of these members is getting a sense of just how urgent think think this situation is. is it desperate enough where there needs to be this kind of meeting at the white house with these congressional leaders where they plead with joe bide on the step down. do they continue this campaign where they subtly try and convince him to do the right

thing as many of them had said and step out on his own accord. or do they take a step back and retreat and allow this to play itself out. the answer to that question i don't think really is going to be determined until they all get into rooms this week and have this out behind closed doors and really begin to talk about what they think is the best path forward. i think it's very important to read between the lines about this outreach that the president himself has had to many of these congressional democrats. particularly in leadership and with hakeem jeffries, with chuck schumer, jim clyburn and others. the president said in the interview on friday night they told him to stay in. many of them told him to stay in. and i don't know if that's completely accurate. i don't think that any of them have specifically told him to get out. but there seems to be this chasm of what they actually want to have happen and what they're willing to say to him to get to that point. and we're not to that point yet where these congressional

leaders are prepared to look him in the eye and tell him that they don't think he can win and that in order to save democracy and beat donald trump, that he needs to step aside. so those are the conversations that we're going to see play out here over the next couple of day. i do think it's complicated to a certain extent because the nato summit is in town. that's going to mean that not only is there less time to have these conversations but there's also going to be a sense that they don't want to challenge the president or undermine him when the rest of the world is here and the eyes of the world are paying attention to him and everything that's happening. but i do think this is a critical juncture and the future of the biden campaign and the way that democrats on capitol hill respond to it is going to play out in a big way over the next couple of days, mika and joe. >> ryan, sam stein here. my family conversations are slightly less existential, i don't know if anyone else is. question for you, what leverage do -- honestly, what leverage do congressional democrats have here? i mean, what do they have here? if joe biden told them, pound

sand. i'm going to stay around. then what? that's what i keep coming back to. what actual leverage does nancy pelosi and chuck schumer have? they could pull at his heart strings and make compelling arguments. this isn't nixon. hey, you're going to get impeached. what is the leverage? >> you're exactly right. they don't have any. that's the problem they find themselves in is that -- at least most of the democrats that i talked to believe that it would be better if the president were to step down. but they also are really concerned about dragging this fight out into the public and getting into a standoff with the president and in many ways in that interview on friday night, that's what he was daring them to do. he was basically saying to them f you think i need to step down, come and tell me that to my face and then we'll have a conversation afterwards. and so, i think the leverage point is, do they feel that there's enough critical mass within the caucus the front line members, some of these very

vulnerable senators in places like montana and ohio, do they plead with their leadership? do they plead with chuck schumer who the president has a very good relationship with, someone who he respects. do they plead with hakeem jeffries and others to go to the white house, to look him in the eye and say you need to do this for the country. you need to do this for the democratic party. it may not get to that point. there may not be enough democrats willing to push their leadership to do that. and leadership may be unwilling to do it as well. if it gets to that point, i think you're going to see joe biden be able to with stand this storm. but i do think there is an unbelievable amount of anxiety among rank and file democrats. i did have one democrat say to me after that interview on friday that they were heartbroken over the way that this process has played itself out. and they were worried about joe biden's future and his legacy and they wish that he would just see the light and pass the baton because there are many that just

feel this could get worse before it gets better. >> all right. nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles, greatly appreciate your great reporting. >> thank you, ryan. coming up, it's hard to pick the biggest grift that we've seen in years, but this one has to be high on the list. >> for the first time, we're creating a real trump card. purchase 47 digital cards, we'll mail you trading card. authentic piece of the suit i wore when i took that now famous mug shot and it was a great suit, believe me, a really good suit. it's all cut up and you'll get a piece of it. i wish i looked as good as i do in those cards. that i can tell you. they gave me muscles where believe me i don't have them. i wanted to keep my trump digital trading cards at the same price, $99 each. collect your own exclusive piece of american history and we'll all have fun together. have a good life. >> a new book unpacks how

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♪♪ john heilemann, just for people that are watching at home, we have very, very intelligent audience. i have seen the numbers. it's really -- it's really humbling the number of post-grad degrees and the number of people that watch that are so much more than me. it's very low bar. but there are some people that may see clips of this on twitter and they don't -- or the x and

it's hard for them when they're in their mother's basement eating cheetos and typing on the blogs, it's hard for them to hold two sort of competing thoughts in mind. so when i say this stuff, i'm not saying about what should be. today we're talking about what is. >> uh-huh. >> and this is the reality. joe biden said much of this. joe biden is president of the united states. joe biden is head of his party. joe biden is the nominee for the democratic party or he's going to be presidential race. joe biden won every single democratic primary this year. joe biden has over 90% of the delegates to the democratic convention. joe biden has been doing this for 54 years.

i say this not being demeaning to house members for i was one and i loved it. i loved serving the house and was very honored by it. but they're one of 435. why is joe biden going to listen to a couple of house members or mark warner. i just don't see that happening. do you? >> well, i don't think he is -- there's no question he's not going to listen to a couple house members. i don't even think as i said before i don't think he's going to listen to the rank -- certainly he's not going to listen to background quotes, which we all have from terrified, panicked, scared house and senate members. i think there's an overwhelming number of democrats in the senate caucus, democratic senate caucus think biden should step aside, consistent with what ryan said. i don't think he's going to listen to mark warner. i said before -- to go to sam's

point, i think there is a kind of situation. we can stipulate that this is a hypothetical. we don't know whether this will or won't happen. i think this comes down to not individual house members on background even on television, i think it comes down to for joe biden if -- i still believe that joe biden cares about the party enough and cares about the success -- winning this election enough that if the leadership of the party, chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, nancy pelosi, jim clyburn in combination or individually, went to biden and said, we love you. we respect you. we think you've been a great president. we are looking at the numbers. we're looking at what's happening in our competitive districts and our competitive in the states in play, and we are going to lose. we could not just lose the presidency. we think -- as best we can tell, we don't think you have a path to beat donald trump or at least the likelihood is very low --

>> john, the only problem with that -- john, john, john, they all told him he was going to lose in 2020. they told him that in iowa he was going to lose. hold on. they told him after he finished fifth place in new hampshire, you're going to lose. he was called a loser. he was mocked by the entire democratic establishment. i'm not done. only because this explains why he's dug in. the obama people constantly mocked and ridiculed him. david axelrod has been mocking and joe biden. i know and love david. he has been mocking and ridiculing joe biden with every breath he takes, every move he makes. and he has for years now the pod guys that we had on our show, constantly going after joe biden. obama people have gone after biden. party elites have never cared for biden. he heard this his entire life. so why is he going to listen to jerry nadler now?

>> as i said a second ago, joe, i think that joe biden -- i don't know what joe biden is or isn't going to do. i'm not going to predict what's going on in his mind. i think there are the only scenario in which joe biden will leave, decide to step aside. i think he respects -- i don't think you will disagree with me, i think he respects the four people i mentioned. respects nancy pelosi, respects chuck schumer, reveres the senate as an institution, cares about the future of the party. if those four people who are the preeminent leaders in reality of the democratic party on the hill and the ones that joe biden respects the most, i think he would take seriously those people if they came to him face to face and told him he had reached that conclusion. coming up, kamala harris has been vice president for nearly four years. but many democrats are looking at her for the first time. we'll talk about her role as vp, running mate and could be presidential contender. that conversation is straight ahead on "morning joe." straigh

ahead on "morning joe.

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if you can afford $5 or $10, if you can't afford $1, fine, just pray. if you've got any money to give, give it! lindsaygraham.com. >> let's bring in lee connellson, whose book entitled "the longest con: how grifters, swindlers, and frauds hijacked american conservatism." joe, come on! that medley right there, that montage, it's just like a softball, right across the center of the plate for you. tell us about the book. >> joe and mika, great to see you again. i could not have asked for a better intro than that montage, although i would say, there's an endless amount of footage of the same kind of stuff. >> endless. >> and while i was listening to you and john here, i looked in the index of the book and found former governor huckabee, and of course he's in here, as a guy who went into business with his

mailing list from his presidential capable to market a phony cancer cure, that was supposedly a spiritual cure, a biblically-based fake cancer cure. and that is the kind of thing that has become rampant on the right in the last several decades. and so the book sort of tells a story of how conservatives got to the point where they are milking their own constituents for every penny that they can squeeze out of them, on false presences, in almost every case. and the epitome of this, of course, is the former president. who booked a quarter of a billion dollars after the 2020 election, by telling people that he was going to set up an official election defense fund. and of course, the money didn't go to that, but they pulled in hundreds of millions of dollars in two months after the

election, and it was going -- and it ended up in a super pac, that he controls, and that he can spend on anything, including, of course, his legal defense. not election defense, his legal defense. his personal legal defense. but this is a -- this is a -- i don't -- a syndrome, of a problem on the right, that lots of conservatives have discussed, you know, the foreword to the book is by my friend, george conway, who i think you guys know, who is an honest conservative and like many honest conservatives, is appalled by the dishonesty, the grifting, the scamming that is just rampant in their movement now. >> joe, i want to say, first of all, congratulations on the book. >> thank you. >> it identifies grifters, swindlers and frauds. the subtitle of the book, "how grifters, swindlers, and frauds hijacked american conservatism."

it's clear that they have, and you point to trump, as the apottiosis of grifter, swindler and fraud all rolled into one. but how? this is how this book promises, an explanation of not just the description that this has happened, but a how it's happened. and probably this is more of a dissertation than a cable tv question in the morning, but what's the brief summary for how? how did that happen? >> it happened, john, it began, i would say, in heavy -- in its heaviest form, with the goldwater campaign, after the goldwater campaign in 1964, when a man named richard viguerie figured out that suddenly, goldwater had amassed a critical lust of donors to his campaign. viguerie sent people to the capitol, women, who wrote down the names of all the donors before the clerk of the house stopped them, and suddenly, he

had a big mailing list on magnetic tape. and what they could do was monetize those people with appeals to paranoia, prejudice, fear. the whole panoply, hatred, the whole panoply of of appeals that the pararight has used for many years, and what they could do with that list was get them to send money. viguerie discovered, hey, we can get these people to send us money. that expanded in many directions since then, but the basic appeal is the same. it's what roger stone said years ago, trump's top adviser. you know him. he said, hate is the most powerful force in politics. and if you can find a way to appeal to people's basest motives, they will support you. and in this case, send you money. and the two things, the two elements kind of have fused in both the republican party and the conservative movement as a

whole. >> the new book is entitled, "the longest con: how grifters, swindlers and frauds hijacked american conservatism." it goes on sale tomorrow. joe conason, thank you. coming up, what house democrats are saying about president biden's decision to stay in the race. "the washington post's" jackie alemany joins us with her latest reporting when "morning joe" comes right back. st reporting when "morning joe" comes right back (reporters) over here. kev! kev! (reporter 1) any response to the trade rumors, we keep hearing about? (kev) we talkin' about moving? not the trade, not the trade, we talking about movin'. no thank you. (reporter 2) you could use opendoor. sell your house directly to them, it's easy. (kev) ... i guess we're movin'.

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i don't know why it is that you want to make an issue of the president and his commission with stammering and not being able at certain times to bring forth words, while another personalize fluently and you never challenge his lies. our president gets discouraged, but today, through your holy

spirit, renew his mind, renew his spirit, renew his body. he's the man we need in these terrible times. times of war, destruction, trouble around the world, but father, i remember a bumper sticker on a senior citizen's car that said, i may be slow, but i'm in front of you. use our president, use his experience, use his handicaps and be glorified in his life, in jesus' name, let's receive our president, the president of the united states, president joseph biden. if we ever lock arms and come together, there's no election that we cannot win, there's no enemy that we cannot defeat, we

are together because we love our president, we pray for our president, we ask that you continue to give him strength. he's an eagles fan, renew his youth like the eagles! >> that was bishop jay lewis felton in a sermon at a church service president biden attended in philadelphia yesterday. nbc news senior white house correspondent gabe gutierrez has the latest on this crucial week for the future of president biden's re-election campaign. >> reporter: this morning, the pressure on president biden intensifying, as democrats on capitol hill grow increasingly anxious about his campaign in the wake of that debate performance. at least four more house democrats now say that they believe that the president should leave the race, bringing the total to at least nine.

the president defiant, campaigning in battleground pennsylvania and joking about his age. >> folks, i know with every fiber of my being, i know i look like i'm 40 years old, but i've. around a little bit. >> reporter: the four congress members made the comments during a house meeting. the biden campaign points out that other lawmakers, including some from the congressional black caucus, are forcedly defending the president. >> i'm supporting him and i do believe that i am the best person for the job. >> reporter: the president in an abc news interview friday asked how he would feel if he stayed in the race and former president trump won. >> i feel, as long as i gave it my all, and did as good a job as i know i can do. >> democrats responding. >> that is the answer that most concerns me, as well. this is not just about whether he gave it the best college try, but rather he made the right decision to run or to pass the

torch. >> while allies push for president biden to answer voter questions. >> the clock is ticking. this will be an important and vital week. >> reporter: vice president kamala harris on offense at the essence festival in new orleans, blasting former president trump. >> you have the former president who is running to become president again, who has openly talked about his admiration of dictators and his intention to be a dictator on day one. >> reporter: some democrats now wondering whether the vice president should lead the ticket. >> could she win overwhelmingly, congressman? >> i think she very well could win overwhelmingly. >> all right. joining us now is the president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, the host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch joins us, and congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany -- mrs. jackie alemany. >> this is a great lineup, we've got a skeptic, we have somewhat

of a supporter, we'll see, if, and we've got a reporter who is going to tell us everything you ever need to know about capitol hill going into this momentous week. you really could write a book on this week, because the presidency does hang in the balance. rev, i want to start with you only because of what happened yesterday. you couldn't help but think of 2020, when looking at the rapturous reception the president received in that church. you can't help but thinking of, and again, i'm not being an advocate here. a lot of people, i'm getting texts from elites -- >> yeah, please don't text. >> -- and leaders and people that are really pissed off, because of what happened yesterday. but i'll tell you what happened yesterday to an old politician. i'm talking about myself. looking at what happened there,

you have black voters, you have hispanic voters, you have a lot of rank and file voters, who are angry that elites are telling what joe biden should do, and you can't help look back at 2020 and wonder if yesterday was that jim clyburn moment, where joe biden went where he was most comfortable, in a black church, and that black church gave him the affirmation that he wanted and that he needed. >> no question about it. that is exactly what happened in 2020 when jim clyburn brought him down to charleston and endorsed him and that morning, he came to one offer breakfast meetings with 300 black clergy, that morning national action network there in northern charleston. and it reminded me of that when he went with bishop felton

yesterday and the kind of reaction he got from the crowd was invigorating. and at the same time, kamala harris was with us in new orleans, at the essence festival, which is the largest gathering of black women annually, so you have to ask yourself, have many of these elites ever been to a black church or to the essence festival, that are talking about what's going to happen with the black vote? they talk for people, they never talk to. and the people on the ground,ic tell you, when we went on stage saturday night, i spoke to 60,000 people in the super dome, these people were saying, we do not want to see a return to autocracy. these are voters. if people go to a festival in new orleans and people go to church, these are grown folks, usually family, they're voters. you're not gambling on whether they're going to vote.

>> so right now it appears that the congressional black caucus, jim clyburn and others, who made up the core constituency that was responsible for joe biden's recovery after iowa and new hampshire, two of the whitest states in america, it seems that joe biden is being thrown a bit of a lifeline here. do you think that the congressional black caucus will line up strongly behind president biden? >> i've talked to many of them, i think many of them will. there may be some that will not. but i think it's beginning to look like they will. and i think it is not that they are unmindful of the fact that he had a bad performance, and unmindful of the fact that he's of the age that he's at, but they're also very mindful that donald trump is also at the same age and has acted even more

unhinged. what are we dealing with? what are our choices. he's running against donald trump, not a young john kennedy. and he's running against a guy that would take away all of the rights that members of the black -- the congressional black caucus and all of us in civil rights have fought for. and he has really stood against us. but the other side of that, and i've heard this over and over, is do we establish a precedent that if a candidate has a bad debate, that he ought to step aside, or she ought to step aside? there is no other evidence other than a bad debate that we can present to say, this is why he need to step aside. >> yeah, you know, jackie, we can report now that president biden is sending a letter to democrats on the hill, saying, we have to stay together. we need to be united against

donald trump. that letter has gone out. or is going out. >> the second. >> right now. the question, of course, jackie, how is the hill going to respond? are the defections going to be so large that the president is going to have to take notice? >> yeah, guys, i'm not going to make any predictions here, but if there is one thing i'm absolutely sure of, it's that having lawmakers return from their districts and being in the wild and in the halls of congress with reporters peppering them inevitably, all day along, all week long, we are certainly going to know the answer to that by the end of the week. it's easier for these members who have been in their districts to kind of dodge this question. so far, we've only seen snippets of leaked conversations so far that have kind of illustrated two sides of this conversation that are happening right now, with people like, as rev al just

noted, people rallying around joe biden, versus people like jerry nadler, mark that cano, adam smith, arguing that biden simply can't prosecute the case and that democrats need to get him off of the top of the ticket and make that case to him directly. but what i also know is that democrats are tired of letters and memos from the biden campaign and from president biden. they want to see him and speak with him directly. that's what mark warner wanted to do and was trying to rally his colleagues at the end of last week to have a meeting with him and try to convey their concerns and doubts, and maybe be assuaged in some way. they were not assuaged in any way on friday from that interview that biden did with abc news. they got a memo from the biden campaign over the weekend that was outlining the 15 various events that biden had done since

his debate performance. that was also unsatisfying to them. so biden has a really tall order this week, democrats members want to hear from him in person. they want to have a more open conversation than the one they're having right now, and biden has nato leaders in town, international leaders who have very similar concerns, as we've been seeing, along with a number of stops to make on the campaign trail this week. >> yeah, we are -- we've got to letter from president biden to fellow democrats that just went out. mika, i'll have you walk through it. and i understand, being tired of letters is probably a letter they'll have to read and walk through. if you want joe biden out of the race, there are some tough facts here that you'll have to get past. mika, i'll let you walk through it. but i want to say, probably the strongest argument for him is,

he says, fourth paragraph down. we had a democratic nomination process and the voters have spoken clearly and decisively. i received over 14 million votes. 87% of the votes cast across the entire nominating process. i have nearly 3,900 delegates, making me the presumptive nominee of our party by a wide margin. this was an open process for anyone who wanted to run, only three people chose to challenge me. one fared so badly, he left the primaries to run as an independent. another attacked me for being too old and was soundly devoted. the voters of the democratic party have voted. they have chosen me to be the nominee of the party. do we now just say, i'm slowing down for emphasis, simply because this is what jerry nadler and other democrats are going to have been able to answer effectively. and mark warner, do we now just say this process didn't matter, that the voters don't have a say? >> and that's a key question,

because his opponent is a man who tried to overturn the election and a man who still to this day does not accept the election results. joe biden goes on to say, i decline to do that. i feel a deep complication to the faith and the trust the voters of the democratic party have placed in me to run this year. it was their decision to make, not the press, not the pundits, not the big donors, not any selected group of individuals no matter how well intentioned. the voters, and the voters alone decide the nominee of the democratic party. how can we stand for democracy in our nation if we ignore it in our own party. i cannot do that. i will not do that. i'll jump to the end, but there's a lot here to go over. the president goes on to say, and this is his letter to fellow

democrats. the question of how to move forward has been well aired for over a week now and it is time for it to end. we have one job. and that is to beat donald trump. we have 42 days until the democratic convention and 119 days until the general election. any weakening of resolve or lack of clarity about the task ahead only helps trump and hurts us. it's time to come together, move forward as a unified party, and defeat donald trump. >> so, donny deutsch, obviously, some very strong arguments here. i'm going to ask you what the best response would be for those who are still skeptical. there's still an awful lot of people who were skeptical and half of them have e-mailed me and texted me this morning, but -- including you. but you just look at the regulars on this show, as some of the most respected minds in foreign policy establishment, washington establishment.

down, whether it's david ignatius, richard haass, ed luce, christophe, all of these people have said, we support you, mr. president, it's time to move on. there are obviously a lot of other voices who are saying that, too. and i expressed grave concerns the morning after the debate. and we said, we need to give him time, we need to go through this process. we need to do it carefully. i'm curious where you are right now and what your response, if you still believe president biden should get out of the race for the good of the nation, what is your response to his letter? >> first, i want to respond to something you said, because you summed it up. we have to get this right. and what get it right means is, how do we three rust belt states save democracy and beat donald trump? i'm a businessman, i'm coming at it that way. and i've talked many ways about how i love joe biden and joe

biden and what he's done for this country speaks for itself. and i look at it from what i do for a living, a communications guy. there are three strategies. we stay with joe biden, who's nicked up, and then there's two unknowns, there's kamala or a real unknown? and what gives us the best chance? the thing that i get hung up on is the communications and i think there's a much bigger hurdle for joe biden at this time. we've said time and time again, when we get closer to the election, it's going to be, okay, people will start to pay attention to donald trump. it will be a binary choice. and my concern is, will we get that to happen? there's going to be $1 billion coming in that's going to have one message against us. he's too old. and the reason we're having these border problems is he's too old. and the reason we have inflation is because he's too old. do you have a better chance with semi-new or new? and it's a communication concerns i have. i don't know how we get the

message you say to me, donny, go. you turn that messaging around. there's a much bigger hurdle for joe biden at this point, whether it's fair or unfair. that's if you brought me into a room, brought me in as a businessman, that's what i would say. >> you know, reverend al, dan laughlin with "national review" a year ago, really summarized american politics in the age of trump very, very well, in the age of trump and president biden, he said, if voters are talking about donald trump, democrats win. if voters are talking about joe biden, republicans win. and to donny's point, donald trump has just been golfing, hanging out. nobody's talking about him. it's a dream for his campaign team who don't want donald trump out, and basically have told

people that. the less trump, the better for them. so to donny's point, how does joe biden, if he stays in this race, get the attention back on donald trump? >> i think, first of all, i agree, you must put the attention back on donald trump. i think so the way you do so is you begin to begin to remind people that we are talking about a person who has raised such bizarre theories, such as his cup buddies have come out with this project, 2025, that he's now trying to distance himself from. that he is a 34 convicted felon that has a court date in september, before the election. and you don't know what he's going to do at the republican convention. i think they should try to smoke him out and make him come out.

the one thing the democrats have to worry about is whether the president is going to stumble on a word. the up with thing that republicans have to worry about is that donald trump comes out of the bedroom, because no matter how he speaks, he'll mess up, and they know it. you have to force him out of the couch, force him out of the bedroom, call on something that you know he's got to respond to. and then it goes back to trump. and that's the greatest asset. the greatest asset that the democrats have is donald trump, loud and bold. >> but that's the issue. can we get it back to him. that becomes the issue that needs to be analyzed. >> you have to poke the bear. if you poke this bear, he's going to go give you a bear hug. poke the bear. >> he knows of what he speaks. jackie, what's the main concern you've heard on the hill from democrats? >> it's the polling. there are obviously frustrations

with the media, with the lack of attention and coverage of trump, and the fact that we're all focused on, to some extent, style over substance here, but i think when style is an impediment to the substance, that's when this really becomes a problem. i mean, we haven't even seen the true fallout of the debate performance. there's really only been one serious poll that has been released in the last two weeks. that is "the new york times" siena poll. we're still waiting for a more accurate picture, when people really tune in, post july 4th holiday. but even in that poll, democrat, 59% of democrats now have concerns about biden's ability to serve and feel that he's too old. that's an eight-point jump from before the debate, 74% of voters overall. i think that this is less a matter at this point amongst lawmakers of making a determination about biden's mental acuity, and more about what their voters are feeling at this point. and there is this feeling that

it's untenable for him to remain the nominee, if house of his normal allies in congress are calling for him to be out. and if their constituents, who are, you know, all at this point in fairly tight races, trying to capture the house, maintain the senate, if lawmakers are hearing this in these tight races if they feel like at this point, democrats would be better served to have somebody else at the top of the ticket. >> all right, in just a moment, we're going to talk about vice president kamala harris. a lot of folks have been talking about her, and what goes next, if joe biden were to step down. elaina plott is going to join us with her new reporting in one minute. we'll be right back. eporting in minute we'll be right back.

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mika, i just keep looking at this letter, and i can't help but look at one part of this that's like a real shot across the bow for democrats. >> mm-hmm. don't be trumpy. >> we had a nomination process, voters spoke, i received 14 million voters, 87% of the votes cast, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, process was open, it was fair to run, only three people ran. do we now just say this process didn't matter? this is the line, and it's a clear signal he's -- i think he's accusing them of being trumpish when he says, do we say the process doesn't matter, that the voters don't have a say? i think, that is a clear -- and again, the reason i underlined it before, is that's what those -- the jerry nadler -- >> i think it's a good question. >> senator warner, that's the question that democrats are going to have to answer. this looks like a real shot

across the bow for those who are saying, ignore what the voters say, get out of the race. >> let's bring in elaina plott collabaro, in your latest for the atlantic, in it you analyze as you see as the administration's lack of focus on the vice president. you write, four months before the election and one week after biden's disastrous debate performance against donald trump, harris' capacity to lead the democratic party and the free world has never been more relevant. and yet, many americans after three years of the west wing's poor stewardship of harris, are now looking at their vice president as if for the first time. you continue, for the vice president and her team, the perverse irony is that it ultimately took biden imploding on stage for many americans to finally take notice of her. it could be that in the end, biden east most effective promotion of his vice president was entirely inadvertent.

so, what concerns would you have about vice president kamala harris or what are you finding in your reporting? >> the concerns that i think a lot of voters have that i speak to, even a lot of people around here that i've gotten over the past year of covering this vice president is just that, purely in a rhetorical sense, is that she would not, whatever the substance of her message is, she would not be able to communicate it effectively enough to the american people to have it resonate. now, i think those correspondence get minimized somewhat when we're in a moment, as we are now, when it becomes more about the cliche of prosecuting the case against donald trump, when her background, as a d.a., as an attorney general, becomes suddenly more relevant, when the reasons that a lot of americans, you know, first caught glimpse of her in the first place, her questioning of brett kavanaugh, her questioning of jeff sessions, these trump nominees to various posts.

i think that's something her team would be looking to try to reclaim if in the event joe biden steps aside and she is ushered to the top of this ticket. >> elena, wouldn't that also be interesting if vice president harris were to become the candidate to have a prosecutor against a convicted felon. and to really play on the fact that she has been the district attorney of san francisco, attorney general of the state of california, and then a senator and vice president. and that she did the jobs effectively, comparing him to her, she's much younger -- the age thing flips. because you have somebody 78 against somebody 60. and you have a time where you have the question of women's right to choose that was taken away by his supreme court, his selectees, giving him that. and she's been championing that.

doesn't it really change the dynamics in her favor if, in fact, she becomes the candidate? >> a few things i would love to respond to there. the first is that i think one of the first key moments in the debate that we saw last week or however long it was ago at this point, was when biden failed to speak coherently at all on the subject of abortion. and so one of the reasons that vice president harris does actually have a substantiative profile in this administration, to the extent that americans have been able to recognize it, is because joe biden is not comfortable getting on the trail, talking about abortion. and so 2022 really became an opportunity for vice president harris in the lead up to the dobbs decision, after the decision was leaked, to really get out in the country and listen to women and their experiences and the salience of this issue, as it would affect the midterms. and i want to emphasize that, because, at the time, people in

her own office were coming to her and saying, look, we want you to be aware. the polling is showing that the economy is what matters to voters in the midterm elections. and she stood her ground and said, i'm out there doing roundtables in texas, in missouri, all of these various places, with independent women, who are saying that this is, in fact, what matters to them. and it turns out that she was right, in the end. and so, just sort of by happen assistance, with the dobbs's decision, the fallout of that, she was actually finally ushered into a role that really played to her strengths. >> and when you did start to hear a lot more positive things about what she was doing as vice president and she was right, and a lot of people on the right were wrong. abortion and democracy were on the ballot in 2022. >> the new piece is online now for the atlantic, staff writer elaina plott collaboro.

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all right. now for something a little different. and from inside the white house, we have a special guest. joining us now, the 46th president of the united states and presumptive democratic nominee, joe biden, calling in to "morning joe" right now. good morning, sir. >> hey, mika. i'm more than the presumptive, i'm going to be the democratic nominee. >> there you go. >> well, mr. president, that leads to the letter that we just received a few minutes ago. >> yeah. >> and i'm curious, there's a part of it where you talk about the fact that you've got 14 million votes, 87% of the vote, it was an open process, you only had three people running against you. you had 3,900 delegates. and then you ask this question, do we now just say that the

process didn't matter, that the voters didn't have a say. i'm curious, is that an allusion also to donald trump and the fact that democrats, you believe, may now be doing the same thing that donald trump tried to do in 2020, and that is, overthrow the popular will of democratic voters? >> well, look, democrats -- let me say it this way. the reason i've been out on the road so much, all over the country, while trump is riding around in his golf cart, filling out his golf cart before he even hits the ball, he hasn't been anywhere in ten days. i've been all over the country, number one. i've gone over the country for several reasons. one, to make sure my instinct was right about the party still wanting me to be the nominee. and all the data, all the data shows that the average democrat out there who voted, 14 million of them that have voted for me, still want to be the nominee,

number one. number two. the idea that donald trump is, as gained in any substantial way, his argument as to why he should be president is anywhere convincing than it was two weeks or three weeks ago, it's just not there. and we're just -- we're just starting to focus on trump. look, i attended a service and spoke to over 600 people, i stopped by campaign field offices with john pferdmann and madeleine deen, who both strongly support me. the president and the first lady, we've spoken at a campaign ice social for acsme, stopped by denim coffee. i was with the governor of pennsylvania, who's still strongly supporting me. so, look. and the fact is that this week, i'm going to be hosting a nato

summit here in d.c. going to hold a press conference on thursday. on wednesday i met with the national union members of afl-cio. on thursday i travel to detroit, michigan, for a campaign event. you know, down the line. so i'm not getting any of what i was told. i wanted to make sure i was right, that the average voter out there still wanted joe biden. and i'm confident they do. and i'm confident, and like i said, the press is with me. i think they've been fairly fair. i haven't read any reporting that they did today. but the fact is, i think they have to acknowledge, we had large crowds and enthusiastic crowds. and now they're talking about whether i use a prompter. i did it all extemporaneously. the fact of the matter is -- trump's using prompers, too, i don't get that. but the bottom line is, we're not going anywhere. i am not going anywhere. i wouldn't be running if i didn't absolutely believe that i am the best candidate to beat

donald trump in 2024 we had a democratic nominating process where the voters spoke clearly. i won 14 million of those votes, et cetera. so i just want -- i not only believe that from the beginning, but i wanted to reassert and demonstrate that it's true. and i'm going to be doing that all through this week and from here on. >> so, we -- we noted yesterday that it was quite a contrast, that the people that were supporting you yesterday compared to, say, a lot of the washington insiders and hollywood moguls and go down the list of very powerful people that want you out compared to the support that you had in pennsylvania yesterday. that said, there are a lot of people of goodwill who love you and believe you did a great job in your first term, who are still correspond yesterday, the

topic came up of the stephanopoulos interview, where you were asked the question, how would you feel if donald trump beat you? how would you feel if you lost? and you said, as long as i did the best i could do, that's the most important thing. that's caused democrats concern, who believe that losing is not an option. what would you say to those who were concerned by that answer? >> it's not an option. and i've not lost. i haven't lost. i beat him last time. i'll beat him this time. and this is a guy who -- look, we talk about debates. look at his performance at debates. he lies, you know, trump has 50 lies -- i mean, look, this is a guy who says 10% of the universe -- i'll give you the benefit -- he's just a liar! and he hasn't done a damned thing since the debate. he's been riding around the golf cart for ten days, down in mar-a-lago talking with his wehle friends. i'm not running because of these

guys, joe. i'm running because, and you know me well enough to know me in the very beginning, i ran because i never bought on to the trickle-down economic theory, i never bought into the notion that we have to walk away from the rest of the world and cave to putin or anybody else. i've never believed any of that. and i'm confident that's what the american people are. so i went out and wanted to make sure that there wasn't any slippage at all. and with the average voter, i don't care what the millionaires think. and by the way, 97% of all of the people who contribute to us are people making -- people are contribuing 200 bucks. i think we have the largest contingent in history. i'm not positive, but i think that's true. i want their support, but that's not the reason i'm running. i'm not running about what thepg or care about. and you don't see a whole lot of ceos flocking to trump. you see the major economists out there talking about what i have been able to do. i don't hear anybody talking

about his economic plan, like bring america around and keep america first. and hearing trump talking about all that he's done and all -- trump, you know, trump and his debate night, he's a pathological liar. he lied about roe. he refused to accept the outcome of the election. he refused to condemn january 6th, and he says, he claims that he spoke with putin before he invaded! what the hell are we doing, joe? what are we doing? this is bizarre! >> yeah. >> it's a good question. i have a few questions, mr. president. and i know you know where i stand. and yet, i have a few questions. first -- >> good to know! >> how can you assure the american people that you won't have another night like the one you did in atlanta? >> look at my career. i have not had many of those nights. it was a terrible night and i really regret it happened. but the fact of the matter is,

how can you assure you're being on -- on your way to go to work tomorrow. age wasn't, you know, the idea that i'm too old created over 15 million jobs, 21 million aca, beat big pharma, relieved student debt for 5 million people, first black woman on the court. i think i've had a significant run and that's how to measure me. measure me how i've done. by the way, in terms of my neurological capacity. i had a physical, a neurological physical as well in february, and i released all my record! all of them! and i have a neurological test every single day. try sitting behind this desk and making these decisions. you know it, both of you know it, they know it. i'm not bad at what i do. it doesn't mean i never make a mistake, i do.

but i'm making those decisions. >> mr. president, if anybody in my family had a night like that. if my joe had a night like that, my kids or anybody, i would probably want to do some sort of workup, medical workup, and make sure he's okay. have you been tested for any age-related illnesses, pre-parkinson's or anything like that, that might explain sort of having a night like that where you couldn't finish sentences? >> ha-ha. look, i had before -- i was feeling so badly before the debate, when i came back, that they tested me for -- i thought maybe i had covid, maybe there was something wrong, i had an infection or something. they tested me, they gave me those tests, i was clear, but look, i had a bad night. but the fact of the matter is, look at what i'm -- let me put it this way. if there was something that was

wrong that night, it's not like it comes -- that's up with night and it goes away. that's why i've been out, i've been testing myself, testing everywhere i go. going out and making the case. the night of the that debate i went out. i went out until 2:00 in the morning. that night, that very night. it drives me nuts people talking about this. that very night i was talking to large crowds. look at the crowds we've gathered, everywhere from atlanta to north carolina, pennsylvania. and look at the enthusiasm. this was right after. and where the hell has trump been? what has trump said or done, except deny and lie about what he's for. >> okay, so you have repeatedly said that all of these people and entities are wrong, let me go through them, "the new york times" editorial board, "the new york times", jerry nadler, seth moulton. let me go to julian castro, tim

ryan, david axelrod. david remnick, richard haas -- >> oh, your -- >> yeah, i know which one you're responding to there. zeke emanuel. but they're saying that you should step aside. so what is your plan of attack moving forward? >> my plan is going out -- >> they're big names. >> they're big names, but i don't care what those big names think. they were wrong in 2020. they were wrong in 2022 about the red wave. they were wrong in 2024. come out with me and watch people react! i'll have all of these foreign leaders! i've been in contact and, look, the country -- the rest of the world, our allies are looking for u.s. leadership. who else do you think could step in and do this?

i expanded nato. i solidified nato. ask your brother about it in poland. i made sure that we were in a position where we have a coalition of people of the nations around the world to deal with china, with russia, with everything that's going on in the world. we're making real progress. the biden plan, which got -- in israel, for the gaza strip, and something that was adopted by the u.n. security council. it's also close, we'll see. but, look, i'm not going to explain anymore about what i should or shouldn't do. i am running. i am running. and if you want to stop -- >> i wanted to ask you, it's so interesting, you talked about how, you know, you were supposed to lose in 2020. there was supposed to be a huge wave in 2022. there wasn't. in 2023, republicans were supposed to win, they didn't.

you could say the same thing about france. le pen was supposed to win two years ago. she ended up getting crushed. her far-right nationalist party was supposed to win yesterday. they ended up getting crushed. i'm curious, what message do you take from the french elections and the british elections, because we keep hearing about the rise of far-right nationalism extremism in europe. but i've got to say, it looks like this past week has been the worst week for far-right nationalists between britain and france. wondering what you say about that and what message you take to nato allies this week? >> look, joe, let's get something clear about '20 and '24. not only were they wrong, i said they were wrong beforehand. i said we were going to win and how we were going to win. i didn't pretend about it. it wasn't like, oh, my god, i

was surprised. i predicted it. i knew what we were doing, number one. number two, you may remember i was one of the few people out there publicly saying before the 2022 election there will be no red wave. there will be no red wave. i've been all over the country. i didn't believe it at all. then in 2023, key elections, i went into those races, not every one of them, but a lot of them, saying we were going to win. we won those. joe, it wasn't just that it didn't happen. i was predicting beforehand it would not happen because i've got a pretty good political instinct and eye. here's the deal. it's not going to happen here this time around. the american public is not going to move away from me as an average voter. again, i'm here for two reason, pal. one, to rebuild the economy for hard working middle class people to give everybody a shot, a straight shot. everybody gets a fair chance, number one. number two, remember about all

this talk about how i don't have the black support. give me a break. come with me. watch. watch. i'm getting frustrated by the elites -- not you guys -- the elites in the party, oh, they know so much more. any of these guys that don't think i should run, run against me. announce for president, challenge me at the convention. in europe, the polls were wrong in france. there's no right wave here in america either. by the way, in case you're wondering whether there is one, have you ever seen trump run away so fast from what he's for. you know he's going to do it anyway. he's such a liar. everybody knows what they're planning to do. now they say no, no, no, this guy is going to rip away at a women's right to choose in a permanent way. this guy is going to make sure he exacts revenge. this guy is going to destroy

democracy. this guy is going to give a blank check to the supreme court and use his past -- 2025 agenda. this guy is extremely dangerous. he doesn't speak up for now what he really is for. all of a sudden, he's realizing, oh, my god, nobody is for what i'm for. think of the things he lied about. he talked about he gave the largest tax cut in history. yeah, he gave the largest tax cut in history to millionaires and billionaires. he said 10% with the tax proposal, not going to drive prices higher. every major economist in the world is going to say it's going to drive up average $2,500 per person. bounce back from jobs and bounce back from covid. that's what he said at the convention -- excuse me -- at the debate. everything he said, he said he

largely fixed covid. are you kidding me? what happened? nobody said anything. nobody said anything except me and the folks out there in the local race. he said, in fact, i encourage -- i think he encouraged russia going in. we're reading from a list of lies. first of all, madeup quotes, suckers and losers. i was with him. the cemeteries in world war i suckers and losers. he's going to have to start answering. i'm not letting up. by the way, france registered -- look, you talk about europe.

trump -- this is a guy who is an extreme candidate. i can't think of a candidate in my lifetime that's been more extreme. he makes george wallace look like a patriot. >> president joe biden, let's make this a thing. thank you for calling in. we really appreciate it. thanks for answering our questions. >> i'm not going away. if you're willing to hear from me, i'm willing that talk to you. thank you very much. >> all right. thank you mr. president. greatly appreciated. >> president joe biden. >> reverend al, obviously "the new york times" has called you one of the most important voices in the democratic party. you're obviously one of the most important voices if not the most important person in the civil rights movement. you heard the president. i'm curious how is that message

going to be received among core democratic constituencies? >> i think it will be received very well. that's the joe biden that came from behind in 2020 and won after becoming way behind in iowa and new hampshire. that's the joe biden that people know, and he identifies. it was very important what he said, with the average american who have also in their lives been counted out and been dismissed by who we all perceived as elitist looking down on us. as long as he keeps playing with his reality and his life, that he is not from the elite. he's joe biden from delaware, that fought his way up, blue collar family, i think he will rally voters. he mentioned black voters. he mentioned others. i think that that joe biden will beat donald trump. he ended with what i said earlier, poking the bear. keep going after trump.

he -- they have him locked away in a room. he'll break through the locks and come out if he hears joe biden keep attacking him. he'll throw the doughnuts down and go for it. >> still with the doughnuts. donnie, final thought from you. as an ad man, a branding expert, your thoughts? >> first, as america, we've got to get it right this week. we are staring at the abyss. we have to look hard. is he the best choice going forward for us. i think we have to look really hard at that because there's too much on the line. >> all right. and this is from the associated press quickly summarizing what the president said. 9:51 a.m., biden insists on msnbc that average democrats want him to stay in the race

and, quote, i don't care what the party elites want. sound like the type of race that joe biden wants to frame up and win. >> absolutely digging in, but also making the point that the other options play trump's way, going against the process of our democracy. >> he said anybody that wants to challenge him, come to the convention, come to chicago and challenge him. >> that does it for us this morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. coverage after a quick final break. i've been doing flight nursing for 24 years. i had a fear that i wouldn't be able to keep up. i wanted all the boost i could get! i heard about prevagen from a friend. i read the clinical study on it and it had good reviews. i've been taking prevagen now for five years and it's really helped me stay sharp and present. it's really worked for me. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription.

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