hundreds and thousands of people. how does the president break through all of this micro questioning? >> president biden has to get past this episode. it remains to be seen whether he can do that. but something experts have been saying for a long time, jose, if joe biden wants to get re-elected, he has to make this race, this campaign about donald trump. it's very hard to see right now how that's going to happen given all the questions, and of course we all saw that press conference earlier. all of the questions are about joe biden, about his health, about whether or not he is going to be the democratic nominee. president biden and his campaign have to try to change the topic as soon as possible and try to put the spotlight on donald trump. >> carlos, thank you very much. that is it for me. you can see me weekdays at 11:00 a.m., 8 a.m. pacific. thank you for the privilege your

time. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. happy monday. it's 4:00 in the east. look all around the world today, and you will find the lessons and the warnings and the stark reminders of the incredibly high historic stakes of november's presidential election here and in the fight for democracy against autocracy. in france voters came out for parties on the left and center to deny the far right a chance at running the government for the first time since world war ii. it was a stunning upset made possible by an extraordinary effort by parties and voters from across that center to center left ideological spectrum to put aside differences and unite when faced with an authoritarian threat. hundreds of miles away, the deadliest and most devastating war in europe since the second world war grinds on and has taken a grisly turn this weekend. russia struck ukraine's largest

children's hospital on monday as part of a barrage of strikes across that country vladimir putin shows no sign of drawing back his creating soviet-era power believing he can and will outlast the west's attention span and resolve and is the for ukraine. a notion seemingly confirmed by ex-president donald trump's only former national security adviser who says this, quote, putin is waiting for trump. even further afield, hung asian leader viktor orban has been praised and was recently met with donald trump. met with another of the ex-president's favorite autocrats, xi jinping. all of this is the context for the mother of all battles -- presentation of democracy in the united states -- preservation of democracy in the united states. some saying if trump wins america ends. let that sink in.

with the very successful incumbent president, president joe biden, face something pretty strong political headswinds 120 days ahead of the november election, with voters currently telling pollsters they prefer president biden's predecessor, donald trump, in every major pole that we have seen, democrats are right now grappling with the question of who is the best person to prosecute the case against donald trump and his clearly flagrantly authoritarian agenda. president joe biden today in an interview with the host of "morning joe" answering that saying i am, and warning that no one should ever count him out. listen. >> you may remember i was one of the few people out there publicly saying before the 2022 election there will be red wave. there will be no red wave. i've been all over the country, i didn't believe it at all. and then in 2023, key elections.

i went into those races, not every one but a lot of them. i said we were going to win, we won those. it wasn't just that they didn't happen, i was predicting beforehand it would not happen because i've got a pretty good political instinct and eye. and here's the deal -- it's not going to happen this time around. the american public is not going to move away from me as an average voter. he calls the americans from the cemeteries in world war i suckers and losers. he has to answer for what he did. i'm not letting up, joe. i am not letting up a little bit. and by the way, you know -- you know, france registered -- look, you talk about europe, france rejected extremism, democrats will reject it here, as well. trump and -- this is -- this is a guy who is an extreme candidate. i can't think of a candidate in

my lifetime that's been extreme. he makes george wallace look like a freight train. >> and we start with the university history professor and author of the best selling book on tyranny, "20 lessons from the 20th century." tim snyder is back with us. it struck me that this is the second time in an hour of real crisis we've turned to you. it the last time we spoke with you was on the day our company had brought on rana mcdaniel. we turned to you to understand the moment and understand why it was so difficult. and obviously she's no longer with the company. but so much of what you help people understand is that authoritarianism isn't just what the authoritarian takes which is a lot of what trump seems to perceive it is, but a lot of what is given freely. i wonder if you can help us understand this moment in that context. >> that's a wonderful question. yeah, the first lesson of on

tyranny which you're kind enough to mention is don't obey an advance. i think for all of us and perhaps especially for the media it's very important not to assume that the right has to win. it's very important not to make adjustments for how we would behave should trump win before he does win. because most americans may not have experience with these kinds of authoritarian trans-- transisions. the part of the mind that tries to minimize risks is going to make those adjustments. there is a fair amount already going on in the media right now. we are in general much softer on trump, and i think one of the reasons is that people aren't confronting perhaps their own fears or anticipation about what might happen to them or their colleagues and institutions should trump come to power. there's an ironic way in which the thing that one has to report which is what would an american regime change toward fascism look like, that very thing can

deter you from doing it because it's hard to confront, or you're worried you're going to be the one that is going to say the thing that is going too far. >> i need you to say more. and i think that what you're putting your finger on is this -- it is true that every journalist is at risk professionally, their physical safety, their ability to do the jobs that sent them to journalism school or whatever it is that got them into the role of a working press. it is all on the line in the election. so journalists, not a single one of them, is an objective, detached actor in this election. what you're describing feels like an inability for the mind to adapt to that because you're also trained in objectivity. just talk a little bit more about how that balance can be struck. >> yeah. that's a wonderful question. and it's one that reporters in war zones and authoritarian

regimes have had to confront since there's ever been reporting. a lot of my friends not just inside but outside the united states are reporting in situation where they are in some sense or another at risk. i think it's -- you're right, you can't in that situation just treat yourself as a neutral observer. i think everyone, you know, we're all human, everyone has to confront the fear. because the problem is if you don't acknowledge and confront the fear, you'll drift toward the things that are easier to say. so for example, i think the debate around who the democratic candidate can be is perfectly reasonable to have. but when everyone piles on and when everyone says the same thing about mr. biden, one begins to think, okay, perhaps we're saying this because it's the easiest thing to say. perhaps we're going to feel courageous doing the thing which is in fact safe. and perhaps the deep down it's the fear of what will happen to us if trump wins which is

pushing us all in this same direction. that would be normal, that would be human, that would be historically what happens. but it's a level i think of self-awareness that all of us who write including journalists have to develop in this particular time. because the irony is if you don't confront your own fear, then your fears become reality. if you don't confront your fear, it you make it easier for this e you're putting yourself in danger. your generating the very danger you're afraid of because you're making it easier for that person to come to power. >> i mean, it's also sort of an abuse in trauma paradigm, right, with the dictator or autocrat or tyrant as the abuser. and you sort of adapt if you think you're going to have to live under the abuser's rule or power. can we sort of go through -- because you mention the debate. and i want to read from your sub stack yesterday. let me do that first. i want to ask you to be prescriptive for us.

i think we're all looking for guiding lights, and i think you know you're one of mine. you write this about fascism and fear. "when media folks describe discussions among democrats as chaos and disarray, they're implicitly suggesting that it is better for a leader of a party to never be questioned. an obvious point goes missed -- democrats can say what they want because none of them is afraid. and that's good. governor maura healey can express her dissent and joe biden can express his frustration with her,y about now one is worried about her physical safety. trump by contrast controls his party through terror threats issued through social media that has cult followers can be expected to realize. republicans leave politics because they fear for themselves and their families. those who remain obey in advance. that is new, and it should not become normal and should not spread further. it becomes normal when we treat discussions as abnormal. i think this is what has so -- i

don't know the right word, but traumatized or upset our viewers. they think there's some disloyalty to the good guy in covering the debate. i hear you making a distinction between the debate happened and it was covered that day, but the frenzy is what becomes asymmetric. is that right? >> yeah, this is tricky. i have maybe a slightly different view about what the debate means. for somebody who wants american democracy to continue, my view is the debate actually -- i mean honestly i see it in positive terms. i see it as an opportunity for there to be a discussion at whatever level that discussion needs to be had. the president obviously has, he's the presumptive nominee, he has the delegates. it's entirely up to him. he's had an incredible first term. i think it makes sense for there to be a discussion -- if we don't think there should be a discussion, suddenly we are a little bit acting like, well, there's a cult of personality around the president, or it's all us versus them and anybody who says there should be a

discussion, they're somehow part of a plot or are on the other side, whatever it might be. but it makes it harder, and that's why i wrote the piece you mentioned. it makes it harder to have that discussion which takes a little bit of courage after all if the press is piling on the president. because then you really do feel like maybe i'm being disloyal or part of the pile-on because other people are afraid. it makes it harder for you to do the right thing. i think that's the way this discussion has been warped right now. i think a lot of good people who have something to think about are having a harder time doing it because they perceive, well, look, everybody else is afraid, everybody else is piling on, everybody else is doing this easy thing, so i have to be in a defensive krouf -- crouch, i have to protect my guy. there's a way in which people's overall fear of trump and of the regime change shapes discussions which might not even seem to be directly about that thing. that doesn't mean we shouldn't have the discussions. >> let me show you how adam schiff tried to have the discussion and ask you what we do with that.

>> congressman, when i talk to democrats, one of the exchanges that frustrated the most from that interview on friday was when he was asked what happens if you lose, president biden said it's about whether he gave it his all. is that what it's about? is that answer satisfying to you? >> no, that is the answer that most concerned me, as well. this is not just about whether he gave it the best college try, but rather whether he made the right decision to run or to pass the torch. that is the most important decision for him to make right now. this is -- is about whether this country remains a democracy, whether we veer off into some kind of pseudo-dictatorship. everything's riding on this. and i know people feel an urgency, i feel an urgency, but i would tell the president slow down and take the time to make the right decision here that's best for the country. i believe he will.

>> your thoughts about that, and then i have another question. >> in the clip you played earlier, president biden spoke about his political instinct. and i think that's absolutely correct. i think president biden has one of the most impressive political minds we've seen in the history of this country. and during his very difficult first term and also at other occasions throughout his career, he's demonstrated that. he's done things people didn't think were possible over and over and over again. i think what's fundamentally the case now is that he's facing a question which is actually not really medical, it's not really personal, it's not even really party political, it's deeply political. it's where -- like his political instinct i think has to be summoned up and applied to the situation. and i think the only way that can really happen is if there's some kind of process. i wouldn't presume to deck tate what that would be -- dick indicate what that would be. i think there's got to be a process where the president can

say, okay, i've considered options a, b, c, and d. and having considered it over a week he would say actually option c is the thing which i think is best for the country, makes it most likely that the right side is going to win. >> the thing that i think you have put your finger on that no one else has is that this is all rooted in fear. and i've had a lot of private conversations, i've tried to pull those threads on the air, it's harder. everyone is afraid that -- that trump might win. and so every decision, everything is being -- no one is afraid about the governing piece. lawrence o'donnell articulated this right after the debate. he said being president has nothing to do -- there's nothing similar to governing and debating. it's actually a bizarre ritual. governing you're in a room with all sorts of smart people, you can use your lifelines any time. there's no -- you don't have to stand if you'd -- it's so artificial. but i think that that artificial

setting made people fear this thing you're articulating. what do we do with the fear that's more positive than questioning the only person that could save us from the thing we are afraid of? >> yeah, the fear makes it hard because what we want is for -- i think our gut is to say we want to have a risk-free option here. you know, people want to say -- >> yes. >> -- yeah, exactly, right? we want to say, okay, if we ride the horse that brought us it's going to be okay. or if we swap out our horse for a fresh horse it's going to be okay. or if we go to a completely different stable and pick a different horse, it's going to be okay. the truth is it's politics, it's life, it's history in the making, and there is no certainty. you're going to take some risk. that's an important point. even if you do nothing, even if you just stay on the horse that brung you, you're still making a choice, and you're not making a risk-free choice. these are all choices that have risks. and so i think the important

thing is to understand that everything you do is going to be risky, and given that there's more things than one that you can do while there's still time, there ought to be an open, structured discussion about which one of these things is least risky. and the thing that you're doing right now isn't necessarily the least risky just because it's the thing you're doing right now. to try to make it positive, i would put it like i did before. i think the president is probably better and smarter at this than any of the other people talking about it. but he can't really consider it unless some options are put before him. and you know, i think if the people who are in a position to do that would say here, you staying is one option, here are some other options, let's find some ways to analytically consider these which aren't just about you personally, right? it's not about whether he's been a great president or not. i think he's been a historically really good president. it's not about, you know -- not us and them.

it's about looking for the thing which is best for the people. and i think that -- that in the end will strike a chord with him. what is best for the people and what is your political instinct say at the end is going to be best for the people. >> and it's sort of perfect that he's -- i agree, he's been a historically successful president. just ask all the republicans who try to hop a ride on his plane to associate themselves with his agenda which is even more popular than he is at this point. but i -- i wonder -- i want to ask you about the opportunity that the country has to see him through the lens of what's happening this week. i mean, i saw your feed -- i mean, the horrors in ukraine, bombing a children's hospital is a heinous war crime. his success there, you know, almost outpaces his success on a domestic front. how important is it to see him on the world stage this week in

the meetings? >> i think he's vastly underestimated as a foreign policy president. you know, as we kindof obsess about ourselves all the time, we take for granted a big shift that took place when he came into office which was that suddenly other countries began to take us seriously again. the countries we would want of to take seriously began to take us seriously again. and he made a really important move in the first couple of months in office which was to say, look, we can't do it alone, which is true. we can't do it alone. we have to have friends, allies, and we have to listen to them. and you mentioned ukraine. for me, he's been too slow on a lot of things on ukraine, but his instincts were absolutely right. and he's been part -- a leading parts of a very important coalition which has kept that war from becoming a much broader and much worse conflict. and he's done so with skill, he's done so with tact, and he's done so with patience. and most importantly, you know,

he's done so learning over time and getting better over time. so you know, he's right when he says i've achieved things on the international stage that maybe other people wouldn't have achieved. and the fact that other people take him seriously is -- is very -- is very important. now that said, that doesn't mean that people around the world aren't having the same kind of concerns and the same kinds of conversations that we're having right now. but they have those concerns and conversations because they perceive clearly that a trump presidency means that america's going off a cliff like in the best case america disappears, in the worst case america throws its weight behind russia and china, and we have a completely different world order very quickly. >> and north korea, who's trump's favorite among the autocrats. if you could stay with us, we have to sneak in a break. we have so many more questions. we're desperate for your wisdom today. is that okay? >> yes. >> okay. we're also 42 days into the

democratic convention. president joe biden is defending his candidacy and electability up on capitol hill today where a lot of these conversations are taking place publicly and privately. we'll talk to a reporter who knows joe biden and jill biden better than just about anybody else and can tell us what he may be thinking and how he'll approach that. later we'll talk about the preparations under way by donald trump to transform the u.s. government and overhaul our country. so radical and horrifying that candidate trump is publicly claiming to know nothing about project 2025. we'll have all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a break. e house" continuesft aer a break power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley shop etsy for thoughtful pieces made by real people from wherever you are. to bring a little something extra to the ordinary. find items that add wow to walls

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the problem is not that putin is smart, which of course he's smart, but the real problem is that our leaders are dumb. think of president xi, central casting, brilliant guy. when i say he's brilliant, everyone says that's terrible, you're -- he runs 1.4 billion people with an iron fist. smart, brilliant, everything perfect. there's nobody that's better, smarter, or a better -- van -- than viktor orban. [ applause ] >> does a great job. noncontroversial figure because he said this is the way it's going to be, and that's the end of it, right? he's the boss. and -- he's a great leader. fantastic leader in europe and all over the world, they respect him. one of the presidents of a big country stood up and said, well, sir, if we don't pay and we're attacked by russia, will you

protect us? i said, you didn't pay? you're delinquent? he said, yes, let's say that happened. no, i would not protect you. in fact, i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. >> you know, it strikes me that american men and women have died fighting some of the nations led by the autocrats trump praises there. he is everything this country has always been against and opposed to and offended by. how is -- what is happening in the country that he's ahead? >> well, i mean, first of all, don't -- don't overestimate us. there were always people in this country who talked about america first when what they meant is we actually like dictators abroad and we don't want to help democrats abroad. there were always people in this country who liked one form of inequality or another. we have plenty of skeletons in our historical closet.

and mr. trump comes out of that closet. he represents a kind of worship of wealth which is perhaps ill gained. he represents the sense that white people are the ones who actually struggle in this -- in this country and not everybody else. he represents things which are also historically american. how he could be in the lead, i mean, we also are a country for better or worse of short memories. i think folks are having often a hard time remembering where trump left off and where biden began. i think biden is a victim in a way of his own success because he came in and without a lot of fanfare and with -- without a lot of self-praise, reversed the recession, got us out of covid, restored order to our foreign policy, passed a huge amount of landmark domestic policy, such that the country is now so

normal that americans -- a lot of people are suffering, and we have great problems with wealth inequality, school access, lots of other things. but we are now at -- i think it's fair to say, we're at like 2018, 2019, 2020 or better levels of normality. and -- but -- you know, biden is paying for that, right? because now we feel like maybe we could throw the dice again with this fellow trump. >> so much of what i feel like is in the water is this repressed trauma. covid happened. my child stayed home in school for over a year, was home schooled. millions of people died, and no one wants to talk about it. i mean, not only are we sort of back to normal, biden inherited this country on its knees. lower than that. and i wonder if it's the same piece of the brain that has to sort of memory hold all of

trump's, you know, trespasses and crimes, and he's accused of dozens and dozens of felonies. that gets put, you know, oh, that's just trump being trump. whereas biden's victories are sort of pushed down and repressed along with the country's traumas. how do you level the scale? >> yeah, that's a tough one. and not just an american problem, it's a problem for democracy. the great american and human capacity is to take things for granted. we takes things for granted, problems get fixed. we take it for granted, covid gets reduced. we take it for granted, jobs go up, wages go up. we immediately start adjusting and take it -- we take it for granted. and i think you're right, though, i think there's a part of us which -- which went through all that suffering and hasn't really processed it. and i think what trump offers is a kind of sort of very cheap psychotherapy which says whatever hand, it was somebody -- happened, it was somebody

else's fault. and that's all we have to know and say. the covid was -- covid was somebody else's fault it wasn't mine. you know, whatever happened, it's somebody else's fault. and this a comfortable -- it's obviously fraudulent malpractice as psychotherapy. it is a way of kind of dealing with the past that whatever happened we were innocent, and they were guilty. and trump is talented at that. trump is really good at saying he's innocent, he's the great victim, come along with him and be innocent and be the great victim. and whatever else happened, whatever pain you suffered, whatever pain you inflicted on somebody else, it's okay. you were innocent. it's somebody else's fault. >> what is your counsel for those of us who want to cover this moment honestly, keep the faith that the pro-democracy coalition -- i would vote for joe biden in any condition over donald trump, and i'm struggling with how to cover this moment. what is your counsel?

>> that's kind of you to imtrust me with a question like that. i would look out for the pro-democracy stories which are often in the states. people in idaho or -- sorry, not idaho, people in ohio or wherever it might be gathering signatures for a referendum. people winning referenda. people trying to reverse gerrymandering, that's ohio. the small fights where people are actually out there already trying to make things better, they don't get enough national coverage. and that kind of contributes to the general doom moment that we're in where we all think it's coming, maybe it's inevitable. that's not true. there are lots of people who are unscripted and un-- and -- not attended to who are actually fighting this fight. and you know, by the way, the examples of britain and france show this, as well. things can be unpredictable in a good sense, as well. another piece of advice is to actually -- this may be tough, i can't tell you what to do, but

run stories which remind people of what happened in the biden administration about the laws that were passed, and run stories about authoritarian countries present or past which show people what it's like to be in these situations. parts of the problem -- maybe not your problem or mine, but part of our problem is a lack of imagination. people don't know what it's like to be in a situation where their children's access to school is going to depend upon them kissing up. they don't know what it's like to be in a situation where they're worried their neighbor is going to denounce them. businesspeople don't know what it's like to be in a situation where it's not going to be competition, it's going to be whether it's your uncle who is close to somebody, close to trump, which is going to decide things. in general, i think there's far too little talk about how the economy would crater with agenda 2025. it's basically a model, you mentioned orban and xi and putin. those are not economy that's are doing better than america's economy. those are economies that are doing worse because in one version or another their client

list, it's the people who know the people who know the people. you can't break into it. that's something i think people in the center or center right aren't thinking about, is lou if you move that direction, you get rid of the civil servants, you have a future of oligarchs, the economy craters, and it's bad for everybody. >> yeah. we started leading our 5:00 hour every day with project 2025. it's long. trump distanced himself from it. but the truth is there is no distance between trump and project 2025. it's just in the news again. i would like to ask you to come back and really dig into that business piece with me. i heard president biden make that point this morning, too, they're not a bunch of ceos flocking to trump's corner because autocracy is economically destabilizing, and there are warnings that his protectionist policies would cause epic and historic inflation. and it doesn't get the same attention. so consider yourself on notice that we will continue to need you and call on you.

thank you very much for this conversation. we're really grateful. >> very glad. thank you. president joe biden penning a letter early this morning to congressional democrats asking for an end to the will he or won't he conversations about staying in the race on capitol hill, asking his allies in congress to focus on the one job facing the democratic party right now -- defeating donald trump. we'll get more reaction to that next. rcteaion to that next i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq is different and may help. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling in ra and psa. relieve fatigue for some and stop joint damage. and in psa, can leave skin clear or almost clear. rinvoq can lower your ability

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the bottom line here is that we're not going anywhere. i am not going anywhere. i wouldn't be running if i didn't absolutely believe that i am the best candidate to beat donald trump in 2024. >> a defiant president joe biden this morning on the air with our colleagues, joe and mika. that appearance comes on the heels, just a few minutes after it was made public that he'd sent a letter to congressional democrats. president saying that he would not bow out of the race, saying in part, quote, voters and the voters alone decide the nominee. president biden went on to say this, quote, the question of how to move forward has been well aired for over a week now. it's time for it to end. we have one job, and that is to beat donald trump. any weakening felt resolve or lack of clarity about the task ahead only helps trump and hurts us. joining ours conversation, white house correspondent mike memmely, hold of the on brand

podcast donnie deutsch. you heard from timothy snyder, the closest thing i have to a north star how to cover this moment where the threat isn't a republican president that i disagree with, but regime change, something autocratic and not democratic in nature, something that changes the world in which our kids grow up in from something unrecognizable to the world we grew up in. he seemed to draw a line and say that these questions and this process on the democratic side is -- is healthy, it allowable. in that spirit, i ask you your thoughts on this moment. >> yeah. it's a privilege to follow professor snyder. i think he's just incredible. we have an obligation at this point to ask questions. it's very simple. we cannot be in a woulda, coulda, shoulda situation. i don't subscribe to this, everybody piling behind

president biden right now. i love joe biden, he's done a great job. this is an inflection point, and we ask ourselves one question -- who is the best path to beat donald trump? is it joe biden right now, and he's nicked up and definitely wounded from the last debate, or are there alternate sniffs kamala harris, governor forbid i said -- god forbid i said that. this is the time to ask and talk. this is democracy. we're not the other side and say we're told to do something so it's time to lock in. no. this is a moment this time. i think for some reason we've been given this moment in time. i don't want to hear letters from people saying you're not behind joe biden -- i'm going to be behind with all my heart and soul whoever the democratic candidate is. the problem with joe biden right now is the democratic candidate is -- you said this many times your show, if it's a referendum on donald trump, we win. if it's a referendum on joe biden, we lose. i don't know how you get that referendum back on trump. the problem is you're going to have a billion plus dollars

coming in, reminding every day or suggesting every day or mandating every day that joe biden can't do the job. and how do we get the conversation back to donald trump? and that's the -- can somebody else do that better? what i want right now from the american public, from every politician, from every journalist, from every voter, is to just not necessarily lock in line and maybe that's the right move, but this is when we say is there a better path. is there an all-female ticket, oh, i said that. i'm saying things that all of a sudden you go, oh. and we need to talk about it right now because this is the time. couple weeks from now, three weeks from now is not the time. so we are -- we tell the truth, and we question things. and we openly question things. and i don't think anybody should be told not to question right now. >> yeah, i mean, mike, one of the things the white house seems to be latched on to that is demonstrably false is this isn't a voter problem, this is a massive voter problem. 75% of all voters think he's too

old, and i agree that this is a referendum on donald trump because he is an existential threat to the american way of life. but this isn't something that the media cooked up. this is something that the media largely ignored for years as voters, you know, raised their hand and said i'm worried about this thing. >> yeah, that's right. part of what we're hearing from white house officials, and i've been on the road with the president in the last few days, as well, is that these concerns about both candidates have existed before the debate, and they persist and in some cases may have worsened after the debate. but what the biden team has not seen in their internal research but also in all of the public polling that's been revealed is the kind of attrition of his support to the degree that justifies the kind of public panic that they're seeing in trying to manage among democratic establishment figures right now. two things could be true, though. that can be true, but also remember that it's the biden team itself that called the play. they were the ones that pushed for and trump quickly agreed to

having an earlier debate than we've ever had in the modern history of presidential debates. it was part of an effort to drive the conversation to those disengaged to fix it on this choice. it is between president biden and former president trump. and the conversation since that debate is not about what donald trump said and the threat to democracy that the campaign has been arguing he poses, but it's whether joe biden -- forget about whether he can campaign and win the job in the next 120 some odd days, but whether he can do the job for the next four years. that's the moment we find ourselves in now and why the biden team has tried to reframe this moment with pushback in the last 72 hours. joe biden is representing the will of the voters in his party, those calling for him to step aside are only elites what have never been with him in the first place and haven't seen his political appeal from day one. >> i just want to challenge -- i

want to challenge mike for a second. first of all, it's not panic to question. it's panic to not question, frankly. and it's not just the lease. it's a lot of people that have a question about joe biden now. we will get behind joe biden. we will get behind whoever the candidate is. let's not be afraid to imagine to what the professor said, let's not let fear dictate us. if joe biden is the candidate, i'm all in. this is the moment in time we throw everything on the table. the panic thing to do is to not do that. >> yeah. i mean, i like the podcast "we can do hard things." this is about the hardest -- other than trump's victory, this is about the hardest political conversation i've ever tried to have on tv. i'm grateful to both of you. i need you to stick around through a quick break. we have to do that, and then we'll do more of this. en we'll do more of this.

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if you're hungry, you know, if they got it feed you. people just got to realize, you know, places like this do exist, they will help you. please call now or make your monthly donation at helpfeedingamerica.org. working together, we can end hunger in america. we're back with mike and donnie. mike, what is the plan for getting the conversation back to a referendum on the atrocities of project 2025 and the horrors of the first trump term? >> these last few days especially i've been having flashbacks to the conversations we were probably having around this time four years ago. and especially even earlier during the democratic primary because what we're seeing from the biden team is really employing two of the strategies that they use more often when he was facing political hurdles or

setbacks at the time. the first was to raise the stakes, to talk about donald trump. and now we saw that on friday where the president at one point in that rally in wisconsin talked about needing to exile president trump once and for all. he talked about the fact that that supreme court ruling could really make him a dictator if he is to win. so the challenge, though unlike four years ago, especially after he faced those setbacks in wii and new hampshire, there's no super bowl south carolina-type moment to make this big demonstration of viability going forward. what the campaign needs to do is consistent performance on a daily basis, we're going to see the president hosting the nato summit this week. that news conference on thursday, he's going to be meeting tonight with members of the congressional black caucus. he's also going to be traveling to michigan on friday, next week during the republican national convention. he's going to be out meeting again with voters. typically, you know this, you would see the parties tend to respect the other party's convention and sort of step

aside for a moment. and the president's going to be out there every day. and so what -- one other comparison i've heard from some people close to the president is that it's not on the scale of what president biden did in atlanta, but remember when obama had that poor first debate it did shake him up, it did force him to look outside of his circle a little bit. i've heard from a number of people that president biden has been doing that in earnest and even encouraging some of his close allies to offer him more unvarnished advice get that forward. you can hear that a little bits in some of what we heard especially during the "morning joe" interview this morning. >> donnie deutsch, it is also true that leader jeffries and senator schumer are listening to their members, and there is a a real conversation going on among people who represent ordinary voters. who are worried. and i wonder what you think the next few days are like for hakeem jeffries and chuck

schumer. >> i think it's game time. and i think -- i'd just repeat again, i love this country, i love joe biden and all i want to say to everybody, whether it's chuck schumer, hakeem jeffries, the voters, barack obama, bill clinton, whoever is out there, look hard and just say what's our best path. if it's joe let's get in there. we're going to win. we're going to win one way or the other. let's give ourselves the best chance. and we have the luxury -- not the luxury. we have the responsibility now to not just line up, to just really look hard because we do -- this is a moment and it is an inflection point and let's instead of being frightened of it as the professor said, let's see it as energizing and exciting and scary. it's scary. but let's grab it. let's grab it. >> a little bit of hope there from donny deutsch. i like that. thank you both. thank you both so much for spending time with us today. mike memoli and donny deutsch. thank you. up next the rnc is out with its first platform in many years,

largely following trump's lead, we believe. we'll tell you some of what's on it and whether you should believe it. next. should believe it next the promise of america is freedom, equality, but right now, those pillars of our democracy are fragile and our rights are under attack. reproductive rights, voting rights, the right to make your own choices and to have your voice heard. we must act now to restore and protect these freedoms for us and for the future, and we can't do it without you. we are the american civil liberties union. will you join us? call or go online to my aclu.org

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amendment. the voting committee was as politico reports, quote, largely deferential to the trump campaign's recommendations. this is no surprise, of course as trump attempts to distance himself from the supreme court and the republican party's wildly unelectable and unpopular views and positions on restricting abortion ahead of the general election. however, anti-abortion leaders are still praising the platform for using language citing the 14th amendment that conservatives have long argued protects life at conception. the rnc platform will be finallized by a vote at the rnc convention next week. up next for us, project 2025 under the klieg lights. the radical draconian to-do list should donald trump prevails in november. as he makes an unconvincing attempt to say huh? what's project 2025 and distance himself from it. we've seen that movie before. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. dad is a legend.

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i didn't know manafort well. he wasn't with the campaign long. >> i don't know papadopoulos. i don't know him. i saw him sitting in one picture at a table with me. that's the only thing i know about him. >> i never met this woman. i never saw this woman. >> i know nothing about qanon. >> i just told you -- >> you told me but what you tell me doesn't necessarily make it fact. >> i don't know him very well. i have not spoken to him much. this is not a man i know well. seems like a nice guy, though. >> it eventually happens to everybody. hi again, everyone.

it's 5:00 in the east. donald trump's age-old "hardly knew him" defense. when things get icky, sticky, trump suddenly a stranger to whoever it is in the crosshairs. he's barely met the person. he doesn't know anything about them. never heard of them. that same defense popped up again over the weekend. this time it wasn't a person who'd once worked for him. but to an entire radical agenda laid out by trump's closest allies, which includes eliminating the department of education, criminalizing abortion medicine and installing an army of loyalists to replace those serving in federal agencies. we've covered it on this program before. we're talking of course about project 2025. it is a 900-page blueprint for the next republican administration, an extremely detailed full-scale reimagining of something steve bannon said at the beginning of the first trump term. right? the annihilation of the administrative state. it's trump's plan for how the federal government would operate if he continues to listen to

these allies. project 2025 was created by the conservative group the heritage foundation. its president, kevin roberts, made this shocking comment last week. watch. >> we are going to win. we're in the process of taking this country back. we are in the process of the second american revolution, which will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be. >> several of trump's closest allies and former officials are part of this effort which, quote, will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be, end quote. that includes his closest person in charge of personnel from his first term. his name's john mcentee. it also includes russell vouth, christopher miller and paul dans, who is the project's director. yet three days after those comments from the heritage foundation's president became a press you know what storm trump trotted out his old what?

i have no idea what this is. i have no idea what project 2025 is or who's behind it. posting this on social media. quote, i disagree with some of the things they're saying and some of the things they're saying are absolutely ridiculous and abysmal. anything they do i wish them luck. but i have nothing to do with them, end quote. trump's potential vp picks quickly ran to clear their guy donald trump of any association. watch. >> i guarantee there are things that trump likes and dislikes about that 900-page document. but he is the person who will determine the agenda of the next administration. >> think tanks do think tank stuff. they come up with ideas. they say things. look, i like heritage foundation. i agree with some of the things they stand for. but there's a bunch of scholars and people that turn around and work on different projects. but our candidate for president is donald trump. >> he's our guy. and he says he never heard of it. the heritage foundation is a think tank, but it is a think

tank, mind you, that during trump's first administration directly handed trump the names of the three supreme court justices he would eventually pick. three now supreme court justices who have made hugely consequential legal decisions including to give trump full immunity if he becomes president again as well as furthering the agenda laid out in writing in those 900 pages authored by project 2025, things like overturning roe vs. wade, undermining the power of federal agencies, giving the president as we said absolute immunity for official acts. project 2025 is where we start the hour again with some of our favorite reporters and friends. professor of history at nyu, author of "strongmen: mussolini to the president" ruth ben ghiat is back. plus national political reporter for the "washington post," author of "finish what we started: the maga movement's ground war to end democracy," isaac arnz dorf is back. also joining us former republican congressman, msnbc political analyst david jolly is here. and the president of media matters for america angelo

carosone is here. angelo i have to start with you. you helped focus my attention on project 20125. what does it say to you that it's getting so much bad press trump is distancing itself from it? >> i think it's what happens when you shine late bit of a light on what's been going on for quite some time now with project 20125. it's terrifying. the comment that kevin roberts made isn't even the scariest thing we see when it comes to project 2025. it's just small enough to latch on to so we can talk about in these moments. but it really isn't the scariest thing. and i'm not the least bit surprised that trump sort of distanced himself from it. but it doesn't really matter, right? it's very clear right now that they're focused on trying to win this election and they understand what's popular and what's not popular. they know that project 2025 will turn off voters. it will. what it is calling for and prescribing will turn off even their own voters. some of the policies that have been tested, you know, polled of project 2025, even maga republicans don't like. not huge numbers, but 30%, 40% hate some of these things.

they get it. and the distancing was just enough to sort of try to move it through the news cycle but not enough to burn it, right? we know what happens if trump wants to incinerate something. right? they're out there talking about their association with the trump administration, future trump administration potential, they're out there bragging about their past work, you know, getting 64% of their recommendations put into policy in the first year of his first administration. they're out there continuing to do the work they were doing before trump denounced them. so it was really a political and communications calculus. but it doesn't really matter. the facts are there. they're still doing their work. they're still doing their work unabated or unchecked. so everyone sort of knows it was a wink and a nod. and they're going to continue to plug ahead with it. and that's the part i think is ultimately really scary here, is this is a blueprint. it's a plan. it's not just a series of ideas. one of the things steve bannon i think had really helped explain project 2025 to so many and helped really rally big public support amongst the right one of

the things he also reinforced about project 2025 is this is not rhetoric, that's a quote, this is not rhetoric he would say over and over and over again because he wanted to emphasize this is a mechanism for enacting the very revenge that donald trump promised at his announcement speech for re-election in waco, texas. so it is a through line here so this larger agenda. and i think that i'm glad we're talking about it. we should continue to talk about it because it is both frightening and it really helps put to a fine point a lot of the fear and anxieties i think people are feeling. it's in black and white right on paper. >> i want to get to everything you just laid out for us. i think the most important thing you just said is that trump is shaving some of the corners off. it's in that platform where he takes out the republican party's abortion rhetoric because trump ostensibly has this new line about leaving it to the states. he takes out marriage equality, a ban on same-sex marriage, and

he is doing things to appeal to parts of his own coalition that don't like project 2025 in the most sort of hideous aspects of trumpism in a way that should scare everybody, david jolly. i mean, he is ahead in the polls. he sees these things as political vulnerabilities. but it doesn't mean he won't do them the second he returns to office should that unfortunately come to pass. >> that's exactly right, nicolle. you can think about project 2025 as the contract with america written for the trump years. and maybe 1,000 pages instead of 10 pages. but it is the hard right doctrine that today's trump movement, republican party's trump movement, really embraces. and i think it was important that you put up the faces and the names of the people involved because that is where donald trump's suggestion that he doesn't know anything about it and then it's arm's length from him, that really fails the smell test if you will because we know

donald trump, someone personally devoid of any ideology, but he chases hard right ideology to win because there's this movement in his name that he is willing to give energy to and fuel to. the comparisons to goldwater or gingrich's movement are consistent with project 2025 in terms of the platforming and mainstreaming of economic inequality. at its heart conservative economic policy ignores the results of economic inequality. that is baked in. and so certainly that would be reason for many people to oppose it. i think what is so shocking and so stark in 2024 compared to the 1960s and the 1994 is this continued willingness among heritage and project 2025 advocates to roll back civil rights protections, be it within the lgbt community because the move to say we are going to allow businesses and other institutions or states to begin to make rules around lgbt

protections or be it in the area of reproductive freedom, this notion where donald trump finds it convenient to say yeah, we're just getting the federal government out of it, we're going to roll it back to the states. he knows exactly what that means. and so if you are anything from center right to the left, project 2025 should scare you for an ideological purpose. but if you recognize the import of the federal's role and the court's role in protecting civil rights and protections around civil rights, that's what all americans regardless of ideology should really be terrified of project 2025. >> yeah. and ruth, i want to understand the brazenness. here's steve bannon promising some of the most unpopular elements of trump's 2024 platform, the revenge and retribution aspects of his candidacy. >> by the way, there's plenty of time in the day left over to have people work every day to deconstruct the administrative state and also in his justice

department t do what they should do to start investigations of how the justice department weaponized the legal system against the maga movement and president trump and his followers. there's going to be plenty of time for that. and i understand it upsets people at msnbc when i say this. this is going to happen. i'm a betting man, and i believe merrick garland, lisa monaco and senior members of the justice department will be imprisoned for many, many years. >> ruth, what are we to do with that? >> we have to take it seriously. we have to take all of this seriously. because it's one thing for people to say oh, trump's just blustering when he talks about retribution. it's quite another to have concrete plans and mentions to have liz cheney in a televised military, you know, tribunal and by the way, who did televised trials and confessions of political enemies? people i study like gadhafi.

the murderous, you know, libyan dictator. and the other thing that is important is the scale of what's going on which is, as david was saying, there are certain -- you can relate this to certain things in american history. but for example, the mass deportation. 15 to 20 million people. and by the way, trump told "time" magazine when he did that interview, he mentioned this. and this is a pillar of project 2025. so much for him not knowing about it. but i want to be clear with people that this is almost 5% of the american population. 15 million people, to take the lower number, is more than the entire population of sweden, belgium, haiti, cuba. it's 15 times as much as "operation wetback." and in all of world war ii there were 65 million displacements and deportations within europe. this is 20 million. so this is -- what i'm saying is

that this is thinking on a dictator scale. and steve bannon is well versed in lenin and stalin and hitler and mussolini, as are many of these people. and so we have to take this very seriously as an autocratic program that has elements that go back to old school dictators. >> ruth, what do we do -- we have a few days to prepare for the republican convention. and it strikes me as wholly inadequate to cover this convention the way we've covered past conventions where we have former republicans like david jolly and myself on with former democrats like claire or other former democratic leaders and we talk about shifts in the platform. i mean, trump isn't running as a republican candidate. he's running as a brutal wannabe dictator. and the plans are on paper. we have them. and it feels like we still haven't made the shift toward

covering the choice between continuing to be a democracy that we raise our kids in and turning into not just an autocracy but a brutal one based on the point you just made. how do we make that shift this week to be prepared for next week? >> we're in this like twilight zone. it was the same with the debate that nicolle, you and i talked about, that this wasn't really a debate because one person came to spew authoritarian propaganda. this convention and that platform they released, it reads like something in its tone, not its content but its tone, it reads like something out of north korea or stalinist russia with the happy harvest, where everything has an exclamation point, it's all in caps. you know, this is -- the gop is now an autocratic entity. and so in a way we're continuing with these election season rituals, the debates, the conventions. but the content and the purpose has changed. and so this convention is going to be one big loyalty performance for trump to

consolidate his cult of personality. and indeed we see like when marco rubio says oh, trump doesn't know anything, this -- there's a reference to authoritarian history. almost every regime, one of the refrains was if hitler only knew, if mussolini only knew what was going on, but he doesn't know because he's a good man. and so there's this like -- and these guys play with this to preserve their cults of personality. so if we see this convention in an authoritarian lens as kind of all hail the great leader and as an opportunity to -- for him to tighten the vise further on this party, we'll be closer to understanding what we see. >> isaac, how much tighter can the vise be tightened on the party? i mean, it's completely -- i remember three years ago i said in terms of its numbers the american republican party is the largest autocratic-leaning

movement the world over. and the right went nuts. i say that every day now and nobody even cares. they've moved the overton so far that they're making authoritarianism great again on the right. >> well, that's actually what project 2025 was about. i mean, this is a project that began before trump was going to be the presumptive republican nominee. and it was not just heritage but a whole coalition of conservative groups and think tanks and policy institutes coming together to create an off the rack, off the shelf, out of the box blueprint for whoever the next republican president was. and it was supposed to represent the movement consensus. and when you look at a group like heritage, you know, which started being associated with ronald reagan presenting ideas like this as distinct from what reagan stood for, you know, that really speaks to how the movement as a whole and the

party have changed in trump's image. so it's not just about trump and his cult of personality, but it really does stand for -- it did end up being the blueprint for trump as the nominee. but it shows how much deeper this goes than just trump at this point. >> angela, what is your assessment of what you said -- the first thing you said at the beginning of this hour was that that isn't even the scariest thing in it. what in your view is the scariest thing in project 2025? >> i mean, the granularity, the specificity of how they would implement some of these things. they've already dealt with the staffing thing. so let's even take trump -- let's say it's true he doesn't know anything about it. it wouldn't matter. because ultimately project 2025 as isaac was saying, it has consolidated all the infrastructure and then by extension the personnel that would be implementing, that would be doing all the work. and then so we start to unpack it. the biggest thing is that most of it centers around the department of justice. and once that supreme court decision came in it really helped open the floodgates for a

lot of what project 2025 wanted, which was to turn the department of justice into sort of the arm for implementing a lot of the initial wave of revenge. it requires a really quick, intense 180 days of going out there and doing a mass arrests, targeting political opponents, going after journalists. it's trying to really radically reshape the culture, our norms and sort of cement power as fast as possible. and it uses the department of justice to do that. and when i say granularity i'll give you an example. they want to just reclassify a whole bunch of material around transgender education and lgbt education, books for kids, reclassify that as pornography and then arrest librarians, teachers that were distributing or reading this content to kids. maybe none of that would hold up in court. it wouldn't matter. you go out there and arrest a couple hundred educators you change things. and that's the type of granularity i'm talking about here. it's not just these sort of big lists or grand visions. it really gets into the details of how they -- of what they would do, the types of questions and inquisitions they would

have. one of the first things they would do in identifying people to fire is pull together a list of anyone in any of the major departments that have gone through d.e.i. training. they would then confront them. if they did not oppose the training during the experience they would be fired on the spot. fired on the spot. on the grounds that they would be an implement of discrimination. that's the part that scares me, is that it is really detailed as to how to implement it, what the individual personnel or staff or department would do it, and the centering it around the department of justice as sort of the arm and the vehicle for doing that initial sort of bang -- smash and grab. it has a lot of potential because that does send a message to the middle and to most people that you better get along to go along because things have changed now. and that's the part that's honestly scary to me, most scary. >> this is where -- you've opened the door. we're going to barrel through it. because i think people have memory holed this stuff. jeff berman when who was the

attorney for sdny wrote about political prosecutions that were ordered that he refused to do. reporters' phones were already tapped. democratic members of congress had their phones tapped by the department of justice. so let's keep walking through this scary door that our guests have opened. we have much more to get to on the stakes of the 2024 election, on what would be ushered in if project 2025 came to pass. in the event that there is a victory by the ex-president donald trump who is currently ahead. no one's going anywhere. stay with us. no one's going anywhere. stay with us

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this guy's going to rip away a woman's right to choose in a permanent way. this guy is going to make sure he exacts revenge. this guy's going to destroy democracy. this guy's going to give a blank check to the supreme court and use the 2025 agenda. this guy's extremely dangerous. but you notice he doesn't speak up now what he really is for. >> we're back with ruth, isaac, david and angelo. isaac, you contributed to this reporting in the "washington post" that says biden's campaign and allies are going to make what they characterize as the most extreme proposals from trump allies a core element of their campaign. they have issued dozens of news releases mentioning the project including five on friday alone. and they're asking surrogates, allies and others to talk about project 2025 as often as they can. it seems that that stung. i mean, that was what preceded

trump's sort of stepback lunge from the project 2025 itself. talk about what that campaign looks like on the part of the biden campaign. >> yeah, well, what we've seen is really an explosion on the left of talking about project 2025 since june to the point that it was mentioned at the b.e.t. awards. >> yeah. >> not only that, but we were hearing it repeated back to us when we were talking to regular people, regular voters. and that really is a key sign when a message is actually penetrating. and there's no question that that's what the trump campaign was responding to by trying to distance themselves from that. and so what the democrats have done is make project 2025 kind of a stand-in for trump's agenda and what trump would do as president and portraying that in an unpopular way, the same way they've turned the term maga into a stand-in for republican extremism. and it's kind of a way of

getting right to attacking trump on that issue without, you know, just going after trump, which brings in a whole lot of other issues. >> you know, david jolly, trump is a lot of things. transparent is one of them. and i think one of the ways to orient yourself in our politics is to look at what he walks away from. and he doesn't read briefings. he doesn't read books. but he does read polls. and everything that everyone has said is true. this is wildly unpopular. and it's not just tied to trump. it is indiscernible from trump and trumpism and it's already under way. he's already done a lot of these things that angelo describes as the most terrifying and unpopular. >> yeah. nicolle, look, as a practitioner of politics i question whether hitting the brand of project 2025 is the most bang for the buck if you're a democrat running against joe biden. but maybe i'm wrong on that. but let's suggest maybe for a moment this.

that's fine if donald trump says i don't know what project 2025 is, and let's talk about what donald trump himself has supported and will do. he will support tax cuts that ensure economic inequality. he will reduce access to health care and to education. his record on infrastructure is absolutely horrible. his record on reproductive rights is bad. his record on the use of executive authority is terrible. we know he got impeached twice. and we know he would do all of these things again. we know he said he will use the department of justice to go after people. we know that he said he wants liz cheney to stand for a tribunal. we know that he will attack political opponents. those are donald trump's words. not project 2025. i think it's fantastic that we do focus on project 2025 because it's at the foundation of what donald trump stands for. but if donald trump says i don't know anything about it, fine, mr. ex-president, let's talk about what you do know and what you do stand for because it's just as damning as what's coming out of the heritage foundation. i love this conversation today, nicolle, for this reason. and i know why you're doing

this. because it focuses our attention on something critically important amidst the chaos of joe biden. which is there is one way to stop project 2025 and donald trump and it's to commit to supporting joe biden. it is to ensure that democrats hold the house. it is to ensure that republicans do not regain power. if joe biden himself decides to make a different decision than he's made today, fine, that's another conversation. but in this binary environment you can just to support joe biden and house democrats or you can choose to support donald trump and project 2025, and it's that simple. >> well, i guess tim snyder has peeled a layer of skin off of me, and i'll just say it. i'm scared of trump doing the things that he said he's going to do. i'm not scared of the things he hasn't thought of yet. i'm scared of him completing the projects that are under way. because in a two-journalist household we're high risk, right? and i think, ruth, your admonition and timothy snyder's explanation of what fear does,

you know, fear creates frenzy. fear makes the brain adapt ahead of time, makes people give power away to the authoritarian as a sort of hedge. that's happening all around me. let's just be brutally honest and keep that faith with our audience even when they don't like the things that we cover and the things we talk about. but the threat of authoritarianism, that's almost too soft. fascism is a closer description of the retribution and brutality that trump is promising and saying out loud, which again is to say nothing of what he hasn't telegraphed yet. and i wonder, ruth, what your counsel is again on how we get through these days where the choice and the things that trump's doing to fool people, to shave some of the edges off, softening the language on marng equality, softening the language on abortion, taking it out -- not even softening, taking it out. make no mistake, trump would ban abortion in this country, leaving it to the states doesn't mean leaving abortion rights on

the table. it means -- what the states are doing is criminalizing. they're making mifepristone in louisiana a controlled substance which means arrest. the use of prosecutions and criminality in the second trump term is something america's never -- we've never lived like that before. and that's what he's promising to do. >> yeah, well, authoritarians specialize in bringing the unthinkable into being. and in that process making us betray not only each other but ourselves. you know, and this is a point that democrats can use because this whole thing is a colossal act of self-harm, project 2025. i mean, think of all the things that will be abolished and neutralized or changed out of all recognition. the department of commerce. how is that going to be good for business? because the department of commerce also operates in embassies around the world. the department of education is supposed to be, you know, eventually abolished. how is that going to be good for

our prosperity as a nation and our people as a nation? and you can go on and on. you want to have these conversations like we're having to make these outcome arguments and make people see that they are voting to basically kneecap america because that's trump's plan. he's not going to be isolationist if he gets in. he is aligned very clearly with dictators, and his new thing is saying that he's going to bring peace to the world. this is what orban's saying. this is what putin's saying. xi. this is their talking point. and the price of that peace is that america would exit nato and america would become a failed state. and that's always been putin's plan for us. so project 2025, it destroys things to leave us in a state of chaos and repression. now, it's going to build other things. and those are autocratic things. starting with giving huge, you know, power to the executive. it's all there in black and

white, as angelo said. but we've got to be very clear to communicate to people that they are voting to shoot themselves in the foot, basically, if they vote for trump. >> angelo, you're sort of my canary in the coalmine. it doesn't feel gruesome enough. but what do you think about that we've failed to imagine at this point so far, 120 days out from the election? >> i think what i would just note is that a lot of the things we talk about in terms of authoritarianism, they need -- when you plant those seeds, they need to be able to grow, and the ground right now is very fertile. i've been monitoring for 15 years. the thing i would note is the blood luft is boiling and there's a real bloodlust. it's not your average sort of talk radio audience you think of some of the late '90s, early 2000s be where it would be just conservative far right. there's blood lust. that's what they want. when you have that kind of blood lust and that cauldron bubbling and boiling the way that it is and then you take this plan and

you focus it on a demagogue and a would-be authoritarian like trump, that's where it starts to become much more of a reality. and that's the part i find really scary and that i think has to really be emphasized, is that you have this sort of cauldron of blood lust that's already bubbling, i don't think people really appreciate it. they sort of get it, that's partly where the anxiety comes from. i don't think they really realize how much blood lust there is at every level on the far right. and then when you couple that with the potential in front of us. we haven't even dealt with foreign interference or massive disinformation attacks yet as we get closer and closer to election day. the fertile ground there is not just ready for authoritarianism but it's sort of ready for that cauldron to boil over at any moment even before the election. and that's the stuff i think -- when i see this fear frenzy right now they're all sort of experiencing or many, especially in the wake of the biden performance, i think we need a lot more antibodies in the system and a lot more sort of resilience in preparation for not just next year but the next few months because we haven't even really been exploited yet. certainly that cauldron hasn't

been. >> all right. i'm going to try to grab whatever grains of sand you've given me to grab on to. we are creating some antibodies in the system. we are i think all believers that light is the best disinfectant for all of this. i'm grateful to all of you for this conversation we've just had. i hope it's the first of many like this. isaac, thank you for starting us off this hour and spending so much time with us. i know it's more than we asked for. angelo, ruth and david, i'm going to ask you to stick around for this next conversation. when we come back we'll turn to what angelo is stalking about, the blood lust in the cauldron. donald trump's brand of retribution and revenge politics is giving cover to more and more talk of and normalization of talk of political violence. and now an alarming new example to tell you about. the republican candidate for governor in a key battleground state is talking about how, quote, some folks need killing, end quote. that quote actually happened in today's republican party. we'll get to that next. to shin,

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are you personally concerned about the former president's threats against you should he be re-elected? >> of course. i think anyone who's on his enemies list should be concerned. >> what scares you snoeft what concerns you most? >> what concerns me most is what the court just did was to basically tell donald trump you can do anything through the justice department, you can do anything through the military,

these are core responsibilities of the president of the united states, you will have unquestioned immunity for whatever you do. >> that was congressman adam schiff yesterday on the disgraced ex-president's personal threats against him. further emboldened now by the united states supreme court's immunity decision. it is part of a terrifying and growing trend, the mainstreaming of open calls for political violence under the rhetorical air cover provided by the disgraced ex-president. on sunday the republican nominee for north carolina's governor, lieutenant governor mark robinson, in remarks given at a church said this, quote, some folks need killing. take a look. >> we now find ourselves struggling with people who have evil intent. there was a time when we used to meet evil on the battlefield. and guess what we did to it. we killed it! some liberal somewhere is going to say that sounds awful. too bad! [ applause ]

get mad at me if you want to. some folks need killing! it's time for somebody to say it. >> those comments come on the heels of sitting supreme court justice samuel alito, who was recorded in a conversation with a left-wing activist who he thought was a political ally talking about how difficult it is to live peacefully with people on the left, the liberals. quote, there can be a way of working, a way of living together peacefully, but it's difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really cannot be compromised, end quote. and as we just showed you earlier in the hour, the head of project 2025, which laid out the agenda for trump's second term, kevin roberts, confirming some of congressman schiff's worst fears about the supreme court's recent immunity ruling. roberts saying the supreme court has unleashed a second american revolution which, quote, will remain bloodless if the left allows it to be.

we're back with ruth, david and angelo. ruth, political violence and the fear of political violence coming and endangering not just the person in the arena but your family is a tool of the autocrat. >> it's the fundamental thing. and this is what got me into following trump in 2016. i saw that he was using his rallies for a reason that goes back to fascism, that you need to change people's perception of violence. you need to get them to see violence as sometimes justified, sometimes necessary. and so trump used his rallies from 2015 onwards, and this was the basis of my report for the january 6th committee, as radicalization vehicles, and he would say in the old days you could beat up people. and then he's engaging much later in dehumanizing rhetoric. and he's created a climate, of

course saying also he could stand on fifth avenue and shoot someone, launching his campaign at waco, texas where, you know, a pilgrimage site for extremists. going to a gun store and looking at a glock with his name on it. you know, it's not subtle. and of course praising murderous dictators all over the world. so changing the perception of violence in americans' minds, that violence becomes the way you solve differences. that's what some of these quotes were saying. you don't reason. you don't discuss. you kill. you beat up. you jail. and then you torture. and this is the terrain of authoritarianism, and this is what i'm most worried about. he has created a permission structure for all kinds of people to air their most bloodthirsty fantasies, and this is the way you do politics now for some of these people. >> ruth, thank you for sticking

around. you too stayed longer than we had asked you to. and i know you have to go. but thank you very much for all of your thoughts and wisdom today. we're really grateful. david jolly, the truth about all of this is that it's already happened. right? we live in a post-january 6th world. we live in a post-paul pelosi attack world. we live in a post-normalization of political violence world. and you know what donald trump knows about all of that? it is a big bleeping political loser. it's a big ugly bruise on his shiny new, you know, thing he wants to project. i'm so informed by the new book "apprentice in wonderland" that trump's just trying to get renewed for another season but he is this effective sort of accidental autocrat because he is pathological.

survival instinct reveals here and there. >> so look, i agree with you, i think donald trump led primarily by his own narcissism, but second the incentive structure. he created a following, and the following is demanding more and more of this drug of absolute power. and what worries me about what's different this go-around and now eight to ten years into this is the followers before were hard to identify. and then we've seen them grow in their public expression of using violence. january 6th being the perfect example. the paul pelosi attack you mentioned as well. and now we're seeing followers gets elected or hold office or run, right? the north carolina candidate for governor. who does he believe should be killed? i'll give you another exam pl. an open records request in florida just revealed that during some protests in the

state of florida a staff member for joe -- for ron desantis told state law enforcement go arrest some people. when they said we can't he said just arrest a couple people for the governor, we'll get your back, don't worry about it. those types of actions now are a movement that donald trump created. and you're seeing it in project 2025. let's now use the authority of the state for this what started out as accidental authoritarianism led by narcissism is now doctrine in today's republican party. and i think that's the most dangerous part. and so you see joe biden, for instance, having to wrestle with running on a traditional democratic platform while also meeting the moment of protecting american democracy against this type of movement. and what i worry most about, though i guess it would be the dark lining on a bright cloud, is if indeed america steps up and defeats trumpism in november we know donald trump will not accept the results of that election and we now know his

followers will get his back in doing whatever it takes to overturn it. many of those followers now occupying the offices of secretaries of state across the country, offices of governor across the state, state attorneys general and other people with real power to effectuate this autocratic movement that donald trump has unleashed. >> you know, angelo, i've said for a long time no one's coming to save us. and that's the good news. the only people left with any -- jack smith had the ill-fated intervention of the united states supreme court and a late start. the efforts in new york look like they've been slowed. he was successfully held accountable for his crimes but now sentencing is delayed. he now has the supreme court that has his back. the only bulwark against any of this is to do what tim snyder said, to make sure america doesn't end, to make sure donald trump isn't elected ever again, that as liz cheney says he's never anywhere close to the oval office ever again. how much of what you understand

about the agenda is based on everything we know about this moment in politics repulsive to the mainstream voter? >> it is repulsive. all the polling shows that. all the polling shows that. as you noted trump knows that. that's why he like sandpaper smooths out the edges of some of these things. he's not going to lose large numbers of people for some core policy thing. but even though they would vote against it that doesn't mean they'd fight for it. that's why this moment right now is actually very pivotal. it's one thing to say oh, that's off-putting and i have a reasonable choice in front of me, i can choose to go down that direction or i can choose to go in the favor of democracy. but once that choice is made most of those people, as history shows us, they're not going to fight for it. that's why heroes are heroes. right? because they're not going to fight for it. and that's the part that's so incredible about this moment and important as you noted, that we're at this inflection point.

i don't think enough people have really woken up yet around it. the clip around mark robinson when you're thinking about waking people up part of that starts with the news media and journalists and reporters and one of the findings, i've heard you say a bunch of times, i really appreciate it, is you talk about us being in a post-january 6th world. that is a moment we have to start defining a before and after for because things really changed. i don't think that post-january 6th mentality has filtered into how newsrooms operate. mark robinson, he said this thing. but that's not an anomaly for him. that's who he is. if you go back and look at the news coverage of mark robinson when he became the nominee, "the new york times" in their reporting was describing him as a fiery -- a firebrand and a fiery conservative with new ideas. okay, fine. but you didn't capture the venom, the history, the violence, his endorsement of it, his might makes right sort of approach. they just reported him as someone with personality.

it's not just the "times." it's endemic across the news media. they don't have the tools yet for engaging with the question that's in front of us. so they're using old language and old models of old style of storytelling for a very, very different story. a post-january 6th story. and that's where it all comes together because if you think about it in the arc of trump, in 2016 you think about his outside force, it was bikers for trump. in 2020 the outside group, the arm was the proud boys. now it's paramilitary operations. you have them marching at his events and he's openly courting it. part of the challenge is even he's shifted and his approach in who he's engaging as the outsiders. we have all the pieces and the touchstones but the storytellers haven't quite figured out how to present that story for the people. as you noted, the middle that would be persuaded to take action now but certainly won't take action after november. >> well, we have to fix it, right? we have a week. we'll do our part in these two

hours. i mean, i think one of the places where we could sort of sleepwalk into old structures is next week. and i'm sure lots of people are thinking i'll put up a democrat and a republican and we'll debate the -- that is not what this convention is. it is a showcase for a new era of american fascism. and so the people who should be on sets -- and we'll do it here, but the people who should be on sets all across the country are experts in authoritarianism because what the platform is and what the leader is is not a conservative republican. he couldn't care less about conservatism. he couldn't define it if he had to. he is an authoritarian in the making. and that is still, god willing, politically unpopular. david jolly, just real quick, how do we do that ahead of next week? god willing, politically unpopular. so david jolly, just real quick, how do we do that? >> we recognize we're lobsters in a boiling pot and it's time for us to do something about it. we have a criminal candidate at

the republican convention. we asked the delegates, you're supporting a criminal candidate, make them back that up. hit them with the things he has embraced and his allies have embraced. i agree with angela. we have to approach this differently. i mend you, nicole, for how you're doing it, but at some point then delivering that message to the american people moves the burden on to us, the voters, to recognize there's a criminal candidate running on an authoritarian platform and on the other side we have a candidate that's fighting to protect you. this really a hard question going into november? particularly coming out of this week of chaos? is it really that hard? a criminal candidate versus a sitting president who has demonstrated every day he's willing to protect your freedoms. that comes on us, the american people. we're the lobster that's going to boil and not realize it or we're going to jump out of the pot and do something about it. >> i'm so grateful to both of

you. stay free between 4:00 and 6:00 eastern, thank you so much. another break for us, we'll be right back. k for us, we'll be right back

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with katie phang in for ari starts right now. hi, katie. >> hi, nicole, always great to see you. have a great rest of the evening. >> have a good show. >> thanks. and welcome to "the beat," i'm katie phang, in for ari melber. we start with chilling revelations about the gop's official new agenda hatched behind closed doors and how it echoes extreme trump policies his allies have sought to downplay. today for the first time the rnc released details of its new 2024

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