that does it for me. "the rachel maddow show" with my friendally velshi in for rachel is next. >> normally i'm handing off to you. >> it's like you've moved to the other side of the street. >> nice of you. have a good evening. >> have a great show. >> thanks for joining us. rachel has the night off, and i hope you had a great and restful fourth of july weekend even though it was a little weird this weekend. hard to rejoin normal life after a long weekend. it's hard to return to work after a little time away, especially if you know that there's some project or issue at work that you're going to have to deal with as soon as you get back. for instance, say you're a democratic lawmaker returning to capitol hill today for the first time since president biden's debate performance sent the democratic party into a panic. here's nbc news audio of the moment that the senate democratic leader chuck schumer arrived at capitol hill this

afternoon. you'll note that he doesn't let the waiting reporter get their first question out. >> well, well, well, good morning. good afternoon. how are you? good. good, good, good. >> would you -- >> no. no. >> do you -- >> as i've said before, i'm for joe. >> do you have 100% commitment -- support of him running for president? >> as i said before, i'm for joe. >> what was your sense of the debate. >> thank you. the leader barely getting his foot back in the door before having to answer questions about his commitment to joe biden as the democratic presidential nominee. no small thing right now to have the highest ranking democrat on capitol hill publicly standing behind the president's candidacy because if it were not clear already it became clear today that joe biden plans not just to disagree with those in the party calling for him to step aside but to fight them. in a letter to congressional democrats this morning, the president said not only that he is firmly committed to staying

in the race, he implied that fellow democrats urging him to get out are betraying the millions of voters who cast ballots for him in the primaries and that their public questioning of his fitness for the campaign is helping donald trump. quote, the question of how to move forward has been well-aired for over a week now and it's time for it to end. end quote. in a phone interview with "morning joe" on this network this morning, biden claimed the pressure to step aside is coming from elites, while the rank and file of the party who want him to stay in and he dared any democrat who wants him not to run to challenge him at the democratic convention next month. at least nine house democrats said biden should drop out of the race, and tonight the armed services chair adam smith called publicly for him to step aside after it was reported smith said the same in a private call yesterday. but now that lawmakers are back together in person on capitol

hill, these discussions will presumably only get more intense. the house democratic leader hakeem jeffries, is gathering tomorrow morning with his caucus at democratic party headquarters for a meeting where cell phones will reportedly not be permitted presumably in an attempt to prevent leaks of whatever transpires. seven democrats, some of whom have expressed concerns about biden's ability to win, but none of whom have called on biden to drop out are also meeting tomorrow. but for his part, president biden has reportedly been more aggressively reaching out to nervous party members. he reportedly told democratic donors on a call today, we're done talking about the debate. and this week will be an opportunity to show don't tell biden's ability to do the job. he's hosting a major nato summit starting tomorrow and on thursday he will hold a solo press conference. as nato marks its 75th anniversary, biden will host nato partners who are deeply

worried about the prospect of trump being re-elected as they fully expect a second term president trump would abandon ukraine and leave europe to face an aggressive russia alone. not to mention europe's own fears about its own resurgent far right. but the nato coalition that president biden is hosting this week has gone through some seismic changes of its own in just the last few days. and the way it happened could be something of a preview for how democrats in america go about solving their dilemma here. the uk has a brand-new center left leader after 14 years of conservative rule. tomorrow nato summit will be -- tomorrow's summit will be prime minister keir starmer's first overseas trip since taking office on friday and france's president emmanuel macron will arrive fresh off elections in which french voters prevented the far right from taking power. huge crowds poured into the

streets in france yesterday to celebrate the unexpected victory of a left wing coalition that successfully blocked what had been expected to be a far right wing rout. the coalition of left wing parties which have deep political and ideological disagreements with each other came together in just days. they presented themselves as a united front, a dam, they called it that would hold back the surging far right and french voters and a shock result went out and gave that united coalition the biggest share of the vote. one french news station showed a split screen of the reaction on the left supporters of the underdog left wing coalition, on the right supporters of the right wing party who expected to win. ouch. schadenfreude aside, none of this means france can expect smooth sailing. the assembly is now split between the right wing, macron's centrist and new left wing

parties that until recently hated each other. this front page today in france sums it up as the headline reads, and now what do we do? but the left wing party's quick decision, their rapid move to form a coalition in the face of a potential electoral disaster, it worked. the far right was stopped. the most immediate threat has at least for now been neutralized. needless to say our political system works very differently. the french snap election lasted a few weeks. our election season lasts centuies and here once the ticket is set the two names at the top slug it out until november. that's how it usually goes but as joe biden digs in, we're seeing rapid coalition building happening among democrats. not just the usual coalition building, they do to push their candidates over the top like the obama coalitions of 2008 and 2012 and the biden coalition of

2020, but coalition building to determine who the candidate at the top is and in this case the question of whether biden stays or goes. for the past week some top democratic donors have been trying to pull together a group to make the case for biden to leave the race even tried to incentivize more lawmakers to join the club by fund-raising for lawmakers who say he should go. one democratic senator was reportedly briefly trying to pull together a group of fellow senators to urge biden to exit the race but that effort appears to have been called off. but now another side is starting to speak loudly in favor of biden staying in. politico's jonathan martin reports that these voices are coming from the democratic coalition that has always backed biden most strongly, the black community and labor unions. biden is, quote, counting on the support of african american democrats and his union allies as his last line of defense.

it's a playbook biden has "turning the tables"ed to in the past portraying his detractors as mostly elite white liberals who are out of step with the more diverse and working class grass roots of the party. that's what propelled his nomination after a string of setbacks in 2020. biden and his lieutenants are clearly counting on the result being the same in 2024 as it has been in every one of their modern races. the donor class may have their preference, but it's older black women in church pews who will decide the nominee, thank you very much, end quote and sure enough there was biden yesterday at a black church in swing state pennsylvania, next week he will address the naacp conference. cedric richmond said not one african american member of congress has called on the president to leave the race. this morning, the chair of the congressional black caucus released a statement backing biden age biden reportedly called into a special meeting of

the caucus this evening. i'll be able to drop the report in a moment when i speak to somebody involved in that. and speaking at essence fest democratic congress many woman maxine waters issued a rousing defense of the sitting president. >> we're now at a point in time where people are talking about biden is too old. hell, i'm older than biden. [ applause ] now, i want to tell you no matter what anybody says, it ain't going to be no other democratic candidate. it's going to be biden and we better know it. >> so that's the first part of the pro-biden coalition's message, biden stays, period. there's a second part to that message according to politico, biden stays, but if he goes, the replacement has to be vice president kamala harris. in fact, the vice president was

at that same gathering in new orleans where maxine waters jumped to biden's defense and although harris mentioned nothing about the debate over his candidacy lots of other black leaders were clear, it's biden, but if it's not, it's harris. joining me now is the congresswoman maxine waters of the great state of california. she just got off that call that president biden held with the members of the congressional black caucus this evening. congresswoman water, good to see you, thank you for joining me and i appreciate your time tonight. tell me what you can tell me about that meeting without having to kill me. >> well, yeah, i can't tell you very much, you know. you've announced that, but i want you to know that, you know, i'm not going to talk about what happened in the meeting, but i do want to tell you how strongly i feel about support for biden, how i believe that this democratic party will eventually come together. we don't have that many members who are talking about he should

step down. don't forget there are 213 democrats and you talk "about damn time" nine members and i don't think we have a long way to go. we're not really divided, and so i am hopeful and i do believe that we're going to be fine and i do believe that biden is competent and capable of being and continue to be the president of the united states of america. and so i'm going to speak loudly and clearly and i'm going to get on the road and i'm going to go into communities and tell the story about what he has done and how he has accomplished so much since he's been the president of the united states of america and the black community knows that. they knows about hbcus that have been supported. they understand that we have a black woman vice president, a black woman that was put on the supreme court. we understand what he's done with medicare and with health care and the fact that he has placed a cap on how much you pay

for diabetes medicine like insulin, et cetera, et cetera, and so we have a lot to talk about. we've got to talk about jobs and the fact that we have the lowest unemployment rate than we've had in years. we have a lot only to talk about, but we trust him. we believe in him. he a man of character. he a man who has defined himself and, of course, that's what we need against somebody like trump who too has defined himself and we don't like who he is, what he has done, what he stands for and the lies that he tells. >> let's discuss the strategy of that for a moment. you talked about how you can go out and talk about these things, what does the campaign need to do now? joe biden's come out and said the conversation is over. that's fine blue for a lot of people it hasn't ended. what's the strategy to convince people of everything you just said to me a moment ago?

>> the most important thing is that everybody who's going to go out and campaign and work with joe biden needs to be clear about what he's done and how to articulate that, and that strategy must be developed between the campaign and all of the members of congress, the democratic members who will be working on his behalf. we have to be clear and we have to make sure that the message is consistent. i don't think that we've been able to articulate clearly how successful this president has been. we've got to do a better job at it. again, we've got to be consistent, and we've got to go places where people are interested but they need to know more and they need to be able to talk about it in their circles, whether it is sororities or fraternities or churches groups, lawyer groups, et cetera. everybody needs to be on point and on message.

>> congresswoman, even some people who have called for joe biden to step aside have articulated what a strong presidency it's been for many of the reasons that you just stated, and, in fact, there seems to be no meaningful dispute about that nor meaningful dispute about the fact that joe biden would be a better president than donald trump. where does the issue of project 2025 and abortion and the crazy stuff that donald trump and his allies say they're going to do, put aside for a moment the crazy stuff donald trump actually does and the convictions and all of that, but how do you weigh that in the argument? does that come into the argument or -- >> it does and i think we have to balance it. at one point people were saying, oh, are you talking about trump? what has biden done? and so i think what we have to do is we have to message both ways. we have to talk about what he's done, but don't ever stop talking about trump and what a

blatant liar he is, how dangerous he is, how he's aligned with putin in russia. how this man is against women and having control of their own bodies. we have so much to talk about and help people to understand the danger of having this dishonorable human being back in the white house and so it has to be balanced. it has to be both and we can do that but we've got to learn how to do it effectively. >> we are talking about a democratic party that is not the old democratic machine. it's a big tent party with a whole bunch of people. that's why i used that french example, because in france they saw this right wing threat and a bunch of people who don't often agree with each other came together and said, that is not acceptable so we're coming together to sort it out. is that a message that democrats in america can take? >> well, absolutely. here's what i believe, i believe when the president talks about -- if he doesn't win there's going to be violence in

the streets. he talks about civil war. he talks about bloodshed. i think it's those kinds of issues that bring people together, because he's talking about not only undermining our democracy, but he's talking about destroying it, and then when you connect that with what happened on january 6th and they understand that, yes, you know, he really was in the leadership of that. he really is capable of that kind of violence. he's capable of talking about bloodshed. i think that that brings kind of the right and the left and the independents together because in the final analysis, i think that most people, not the right-wing radicals, but most people in this country believe that we should be about protecting and supporting our democracy, and when you have people like trump and those who follow him talk

about, we might as well get rid of the constitution, i think that starts to bring people together and to have people thinking about how much danger we could be in if, in fact, we don't deal with what we've been told. it's right before our very eyes. >> yep. >> it's blatant. he talks about what he's going to do and control of the justice department and on and on. i think those issues must be articulated in ways that people not only understand they're concerned about the economy and all of that, that's very important, concerned about inflation and we know what that's all about, but we've got to tell both stories, and we've got to do it in a way that will bring people together. >> congresswoman, i thank you for your time tonight. i can stretch it out a little if you want to change your mind and tell me what happened in ha pleating. >> you know i'm not going to do that. thanks for trying. >> worth trying. nice to see you as always. i appreciate your time tonight.

let's turn now to david plouffe. former campaign manager for president obama who knows about these situations and knows about these coalitions, david. i mean, i think we just have to face facts. from a strategic perspective the democratic party is a messier thing than the republican party, donald trump is getting convicted and all those guys went and dressed like him and stood outside the court. that's not what the democratic party is right now. it's got people with differences. >> we're not a cult. i think we're having a healthy discussion. it does need to conclude at some point, but i do think -- your example in franks is important. i believe still today in the battleground states which is all that matters in, the windshield we need to look out, there are enough voters part of that anti-trump coalition. some will be pro-biden. some are pro-democrat. some are going to be aligned with us simply because they don't want to see a return of donald trump. now, i think we have to be realistic about where the race is.

this time four years ago joe biden led, you know, three to five points in states and nationally. he's trailing by that and maybe a little bit more, so if the race were held today and it's not, i think we would lose the white house, we'd probably also lose the senate and then the house. the republican trifecta so we've got time to turn that around because, again, i think there's a majority of voters out there enough to win but i'd like to remind everybody we don't have 120 days. that's not a long time but ballots start going out 80, 90 days from us in battleground states so the debate about whether joe biden should be our nominee will continue. i think that, you know, right now it's clear he has no infence of leaving. until that changes he's going to be the nominee. if, in fact, he is the nominee and you'd have to argue he's going to be, how is the race going to change? and i think that has to be prosecuting the case better against trump for sure. i don't think -- yes, the record is important but elections are always about the future.

what we have to paint is joe biden's next four years versus donald trump's. that could be built on the record, trump's horrible record, biden's strong record but that's important. but the chief issue is, voters. not just those that are criticizing voters but rank and file voters have to feel more confident in biden's fitness and he's got to really seize every opportunity because of that number, if it gets better, the race gets better and i think you can access that anti-trump coalition that clearly exists out there. >> and do you think that that conversation is happening the right way right now, the what has to happen to convince voters to be more confident? the reason i ask this is not -- i'm not talking about the debate performance but inflation, right? this administration has done a very good job with getting inflation under control, wages are increasing ahead of inflation and yet we see polling numbers that indicate to people that inflation is their biggest problem and they hold joe biden responsible for it. i mean it's not logical but it's

out there. >> well, listen, i think people are not going to change their view on their paycheck going less farther than they would have liked because it's gotten better for a month or two but the trajectory matters. when obama won re-election, he won it with an historically high unemployment rate but voters had a sense things were getting better and i think biden can tap into that but have to realize the reason the debate was so important and why the biden campaign wanted to have the debate is they were losing heading into that debate. so, the problem has become worse. now, every day matters, the democratic convention matters, the ads being run matters. the next debate on september 10th assuming that happens matters. hopefully joe biden will be out doing town halls with voters and, you know, primetime television programs, there's going to be great interest in how he performs and if he can, i think, perform a little bit better both in terms of, you know, how he physically and

verbally performs, but also prosecuting that case against trump because there's no doubt we know that 2025 agenda that trump is now trying to run away from is a tell. donald trump doesn't run away from anything. he's running a what from that. >> he's all over it. his people have written chapters. his name is in it. >> yes, so you got to prosecute that case and say this is what you're going to get. by the way, i'm joe biden, i care about average people, this is what i've done to fight inflation. we have a manufacturing boom all over the country. we'll continue to invest in health care and with trump, you get the opposite, you know, tens of millions people kicked off health care. he's going to run away from climate change. project 2025 in all its awful glory will be the new law of the land, like, this is we have a lot of material and that's the other thing, donald trump is a very weak candidate. he was weak in '16 but won in a black swan event. he lost in '20. he's the reason his party had such a miserable '18 and '22 in part. this is a guy that can be beat

but he has to be beat, you know, we know that and it sounds like a silly thing to say but as we all evaluate this question of biden and ultimately the question of how we run a campaign going forward, it's not enough to give it a good effort. you have to win the frickin' race and there's enough voters to put this together. but the clock is ticking. and i think the biden campaign is very strong, great leadership in those running it, great interest groups that will make the case, great members of congress, i think there is a good supporting cast but what i've learned in presidential races is it really comes down to the central characters. in donald trump we have a deeply flawed, very beatable republican nominee. right now the democratic nominee is not performing as we like and if he fixes that then i think we've got a very good shot to hold on to the white house but right now, we're behind in this race and we're behind pretty significantly in the battleground states and, again, that's why we have campaigns. can you change that but nobody

should make a mistake about where we are today. >> david, good to see you as always. david plouffe. president biden began the week with a giant event at the top of his calendar, welcoming world leaders to washington, d.c. the perils and promise political and otherwise when the nato summit begins tomorrow. we'll be right back. with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ and i'm keeping the weight off. wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only fda-approved weight-management medicine that's proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events in adults with known heart disease and with either obesity or overweight. wegovy® shouldn't be used with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines. don't take wegovy® if you or your family had medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop wegovy® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck,

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tomorrow president biden will deliver remarks commemorating the 75th anniversary of the nato alliance and kicking off the big nato

summit in washington, d.c. not only do those remarks present biden with time on the global stage to shore up his image, the summit overall gives biden a chance to do something that he didn't do particularly well in the debate, make the case for just how disastrous a second trump term would be. and turns out nato leaders are primed to hear it. in the lead-up to this week's summit politico and the german newspaper velt interviewed those around the world asking how they're preparing to are a potential second trump term. "what emerged was a picture of a world already bending to trump's will and scrambling to inoculate itself against the disruptions and crises that he might instigate. "one said, quote, the biggest challenge is we don't know and i think nobody knows exactly what trump will do, end quote. if the job of an incumbent candidate is offer certainty as a better choice against 9 unknown the summit tomorrow has

teed up a great opportunity for joe biden. joining us now is the retired united states army lieutenant colonel alexander vindman, former director of european affairs at the national security council. thanks for being with us. i'll heard a lot of people talk, officials, incluing the secretary-general and they're very cautious, they don't want to say out loud the parts they're concerned about because if donald trump becomes the president they're faced with a problem. what's really going on because you know these folks. >> hey, thanks for having me on, ali. so, you know, it's interesting. the reception for donald trump around the world is not what you would expect. he's actually embraced but he's embraced by authoritarian regimes and he inspires fear in others. it's not the way the world should be. we should not have a presidential election looming in which our adversaries are

rallying and supporting, cheerleading for one candidate, notably donald trump and our allies are fearful and they've been planning for these contingencies for -- i've traveled overseas and have talked to a number of leaders and they've been planning for these contingencies for months. in ukraine in particular, they're really, really concerned about the u.s. completely cutting support for ukraine and then fortunately we have nato and europe stepping up in a big way, nato is actually -- the nato member state, the vast majority of the nato member states are spending large sums of money to build the defense apparatus but the question is can they coalesce, can they continue to support the security of the appliance absent the u.s.? so it's a very, very difficult moment. again, nobody is going to say this out loud but there is a lot of fear and apprehension about the looming possibility of a

trump second administration, and they are paying attention to the anti-democratic bent of something like project 2025 where there's an effort to impose massive tariffs, where there is an effort to withdraw from nato, where there is an effort to basically isolate the u.s. and take us off the world stage, so these things are really, really concerning. >> you know, in 25 years when you and i are very old men they will talk about the fact that joe biden, not only oversaw the expansion of nato by two countries, but also brought in dhar there are 20 plus non-nato countries involved in ukraine and what that has done has sent a message to china, be careful about taiwan and sent one to iran to be careful. this is actually a big undertaking. it may not play all that importantly here for people whose main concerns are domestic issues, but it's a very big deal.

>> it's a huge deal. it's, you know, it's one of those big, round numbers that is supposed to -- it's an anniversary and a commemoration of the effectiveness of nato after 75 years, largely effectively preventing large-scale war on the european plane up until recently. there was a moment in which our nato may have even lost its way where there was a deliberation discussion whether nato should continue to exist, certainly after the collapse of the soviet union, in 2010s, what is the mission of nato? the project to define nato 2030 and things of that nature. what's clear is certainly over the past decade ever since 2014 is that nato's mission is now more important than pretty much at any point since the collapse of the soviet union and maybe even since the end of the cold war. we had during -- correction, during the second world war. we had a moment in which nato

was established to resist the potential for a soviet attack. we now have a moment and that deterrent has existed and was successful and now nato has to come together to ensure that this war between russia and ukraine doesn't spill over into europe and to deter other aggressors that's in iran and china. that's what's going to be on the agenda, not just for the nato member states but democracies around the world because there are a large number of democratic leaders, south korea, japan, others that are playing a role in this nato anniversary. >> retired united states state army lieutenant alexander vindman. thanks for joining us tonight. we're one week away from the republican national committee. today the platform committee approved what you might call a mini platform for the party. we'll talk about one of its marquee points and vulnerability it creates for republicans with voters right after this. stay with us. edo xr—

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we, therefore, reaffirm our support for a human life amendment to the constitution and we endorse legislation to make clear that the 14th amendment's protections apply to unborn children. >> we support a human life amendment to the constitution and we endorse legislation to make clear that the 14th amendment's protections apply to unborn children. >> there should be a human life amendment to the constitution to giver 14th amendment protection to unborn children.

>> in every presidential election since 1984, the republican party platform has included a demand for a national ban on abortion. the 14th amendment says that a state cannot deprive a citizen of his or her life, liberty or property without due process of law and republicans say they want to extend 14th amendment protections to fetuses and embryos which would effectively make all abortions illegal. that was part of the party platform all the way up until 2020 when, of course, you'll recall the republican party decided they just wouldn't have a platform that year. now, this year the republican party platform is back but this time the coin drone yell promise to banish abortion nationwide has vanished. they added abortion language to their 2024 platform that read, quote, we believe that the 14th amendment to the constitution of the united states guarantees that no person can be denied life or liberty without due process and that the states are,

therefore, free to pass laws protecting those rights. after 51 years, because of us, that power has been given to the states and to a voight of the people, end quote. in other words, forget that thing we've been saying for 40 years about banning abortions everywhere, we want to leave it up to the states now. many but not all republicans realize their decades-long crusade to pass a national abortion ban is a huge political liability for them and they're now doing everything they can to run away from this issue. but democrats won't let them. last week the biden campaign unveiled a new $50 million blitz. they're using those new ads to shore up his bid and capitalize on republicans' single biggest vulnerability this election cycle. >> like a lot of family we experienced a couple of miscarriages. i saw firsthand the treatment i received when i had my miscarriages before and after roe was overturned, and it is

infuriating. doctors were afraid to give me the care i needed the. what we're seeing here in louisiana is a direct result of donald trump overturning roe v. wade. first it was roe v. wade, then it was ivf and next it will be birth control. donald trump is going to pass a national abortion ban if he's elected again. this has to stop and that's why i'm so adamant about supporting president biden. >> in the days since the debate while the democratic party has argued over whether or not to keep joe biden at the top of the ticket, voters in arkansas, nebraska and nevada submitted or verified enough signatures to put abortion access on the ballot in this upcoming election. there are now 11 states where abortion could be on the ballot this year including battleground states like florida, arizona, and nevada. in every statewide ballot initiative since the fall of roe whether brought by supporters or opponents of abortion rights, voters have consistently chosen to protect or expand abortion rights. and the energy behind those

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i keep seeing all those stories about me being too ode. i wasn't too old to create 15 million jobs or put the first black woman on the supreme court of the united states. so let me ask you, what do you think? do you think i'm too old to restore roe v. wade to law of the land? think i'm too old to ban assault weapons again? think i'm too old to beat donald trump? >> all: no. >> firing back at naysayers with a new ad from the campaign trail that features him speaking at a rally in mad san, wisconsin, selling his record on health care, climate, gun safety and murry in a kritle battleground state. theal by was his fifth campaign trip, his first since his debate with trump and while democrats at the national level are wondering whether biden can recover from his performance on debate night in atlanta, the view from swing state wisconsin might surprise you. the chair of the wisconsin democratic party, ben wickler telling reporters he did not believe the dynamic of the race

was changed by biden's performance at the debate when he was often groping for words. a crucial set of voters has reservations about both candidates, he said and that remains the case, end quote. joining us is ben wickler. ben, good to see you again. this is an interesting point. it's an important point because usually there are turning points in campaigns and a lot of people who think it was a turning point then within a week you see the effective that they've had. we've seen this for, you know, campaign after campaign. that didn't really happen here. people are largely locked into where they are. there's been some movement. some negative for joe biden. in a couple of instances it looks like there has been no movement. tell me what you're seeing on the ground. >> i appreciate it. great to be with you here and it was a rough debate and then our volunteers fanned out across wisconsin, knocked on tens of thousands of doors and, you know what no voters told our volunteers when they were talking to them the weekend right after the debris, nobody

said that biden seemed so old in the debate that i now want doctors to be jailed if they provide abortions. nobody said biden seems so old that i think billionaires should pay less taxes so that my prices can be jacked up about i special interests. nobody said that the stakes in the debate are still what they were before, in fact, they're higher after the supreme court decision and our job, our path to victory in this election is to make the stakes for freedom, for democracy, for working people the core thing people are voting on in november. >> so, in fact, to the degree that the election is binary the other side of the binary stays the same, donald trump, who this week tried very creatively or last week to say i don't know what the project 2025 is, don't know what it's about. don't agree with -- don't know what it is but i don't agree with it which is typical donald trump inconsistency but that's true. i mean, people vote on abortion, people vote on their finances, people vote on their wages, they vote on inflation and vote on health care. they vote on a lot of things and the debate performance didn't

change that for a lot of people. >> that's right. and when voters watched the debate, you know, biden was raspy and sometimes he lost track of his sentence and then he came back and made very clear that he's on the side of working people. donald trump was very clearly on the side of himself and there were voters who hadn't seen trump in a long time who watched it and were shocked when he tried to make it sound like nancy pelosi had organized january 6th. they knew full well that donald trump was the guy who tried to overturn the election and shred our democracy and kick voters in the teeth. so those issues, those issues that have motivated democrats to victory in wisconsin in the governor's race in 2022, the supreme court race in 2023, those are still right here and they're right here as the republicans prepare to come to wisconsin for their convention next week. we have the democratic party has billboards on the sides of buses all over milwaukee reminding voters about what the stakes are and the republican party really

doesn't have a path to run away from the thing that trump's own team has set out with project 2025, a blueprint for trumpian dictatorship. >> it's wild. i mean chapter after chapter is authored by somebody who worked for donald trump including peter navarro who is in jail. that is the trade chapter in project 2025. that said i had an interesting conversation with maxine waters earlier who talks a lot about the things that joe biden has achieved that don't feel like a change in the temperature, right? manufacturing jobs are up. we're create -- we're building semiconductors in the united states, infrastructure is being fixed. if you buy insulin you're capped on how much you'll pay for it. how much of this election should be on biden's record which is good versus the threat of donald trump? how do you balance those two things when talking to a voter at their door? >> so, they're linked in a way that is not yet visible to people because the argument is just beginning to be made.

what we saw with the affordable care act is that passing it didn't yield political dividends for democrats. but the republican threat of taking it away was a disaster. joe biden right now has expanded health insurance to millions more people, donald trump still wants to repeal the affordable care act and kick tens of millions of people off their health insurance. remove protections for people with pre-existing conditions. biden has passed the inflation reduction act and now there are big projects going up all over the country. trump wants to repeal it and take away the clean energy incentives that people are using to upgrade their houses and make their lives better and bring energy costs down. trump wants to shred the progress we made and people don't like that idea. they don't like the idea of things being taken away. this is the job, wisconsin elections come down to less than one percentage point, it's a quarter of lambeau fill. if you fill that up you have -- if someone volunteers that they

talk to voters and lays out what trump will do to them if he gets in office and lay out biden to make the case. >> that pivots into the abortion discussion because it's a rights taken away. there are people who voted taking rights away in many sol of these who may, i don't know what their view on abortion is but certainly don't want "handmaid's tale." >> that's right and the thing that's terrifying is for whatever trump insists goes into the national platform of the republican party his own team has put together project 2025 with its plan for a national abortion ban that doesn't require passing a law. i mean, once you can break the law and have immunity from criminal prosecution and once you dismantle the machinery of the federal government that's supposed to specific the public and make personal servants to donald trump you can crush the freedoms that people rely on. that's what he's promising and the special interests know exactly what he's planning because they wrote the plans, so the more we get the word out about the stakes, the more

voters actually come to us because they don't want their freedoms taken away. >> we'll make sure people understand what is actually at stake here. ben, good to see you as always. ben wikler, thank you for making time for us. we'll be right back. hi, i'm greg. i live in bloomington, illinois. i'm not an actor. i'm just a regular person. some people say, "why should i take prevagen? i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight. i started noticing subtle lapses in memory. i want people to know that prevagen has worked for me. it's helped my memory. it's helped my cognitive qualities. give it a try.

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this time next week rachel will be back in her usual spot. while away she left a new episode of her podcast, episode 4 of rachel maddow presents "ultra" is out today and i promise, it will shock you and surprise you. it's available free wherever you get your podcasts and mentioning one more thing that rachel and a whole crew of us are doing in just a few short months, on saturday, september 7th in brooklyn, new york, msnbc is hosting a live