can protect a woman's right to cross state lines for healthcare. to protect a doctor's right to provide legal care to any patient that comes to them again in states where abortion is legal. and insure more health professionals can get critical training in comprehensive reproductive healthcare which is save lives. this is basic, common sense stuff. so the response should be pretty telling. after all, how are republicans going to pretend they think it should just be state politicians overruling women already in extreme position by the way but how do you say that and then have no problem with targeting doctors in states like mine where abortion is legal or trapping women who would travel out of state for care. if republicans block these bills today, i don't know how they are going to try and explain that

away but i can tell you right now, it is not going to work. and finally, tomorrow, we will vote on the reproductive freedom for women act. a bill i introduced alongside every democratic woman in the senate and leader schumer. it is a plain up or down vote on whether you support women being able to make their own reproductive healthcare decisions. doesn't force anything, cost anything. it's a half page bill saying women should have the basic freedom to make their own decisions. seriously, that is all it is. so once again, we'll see where democrats, republicans stand on a very simple question. >> thank you, patty. senator cantwell. >> thank you, it's good to be here -- >> so we have been listening to senate leadership addressing the meeting they're having today.

it's a meeting they have every day. i'm sorry, every week. once a week. obviously there are going to be some questions about president biden. his mental fitness. how senators feel. we heard from house lawmakers earlier today, but first, we are going to go back to the white house press briefing to listen in more on that. we'll go back out to this senators once reporters ask questions. >> hypothetical. right? that you're giving me a hypothetical. but i will also say just to clear this up, the white house medical unit, his doctor, they don't believe that he needs anything more than what we have been able to provide. a full, full detailed, very comprehensive physical. that he had four months ago.

that is their decision to make. it's not yours, not mine. it's the white house medical unit. >> you mentioned that the democratic party leadership, a lot of rank and file democrats have a lot of concerns. one of them said today not only is he not on the same page, but they're not even in the same book. how does the white house, is the white house concerned about that? >> i've said before, right, we respect congressional members. they have their opinions. we respect their opinions. many of them. we had to opportunities to deliver really good results on behalf of the american people. but there is the whole congressional black caucus. they support the president. the congressional hispanic caucus support the president. those are pretty impressive numbers. senator coons, senator fetterman support the president. there's also another list here that shows support for this president. you're going to have some congressional members who feel differently.

it is, that is up to them. the president wants to continue. he's going to have those con ver says. he's going to engage with congressional members. he's going to continue to do that as he has. that's not going to stop. obviously, the campaign is doing their work. we're doing continued our engagement with congressional members as we do pretty much all the time on whatever issue we want to work with them on. so that's not going to change. you heard from aoc, the congresswoman from new york. she said the matter is closed and i support him. right? you heard from max on cnn. very supportive on cnn. you have others. just today or yesterday, given support to the president. i can't, you know, you were mentioning one person, but thr others as well. >> that the debate stage was performance. i would say look at actions and

accomplishments. president's allies have made some version of the argument to not pay attention to what he said on stage, but what his accomplishments are. but when you're the president of the united states, don't words matter? >> so, when you're the president of the united states, i think any leader, right, especially including a former president, their words do matter. you're 100% correct. the president has owned up to that night. he said it was a bad night. he said this. he said this many times. he's even said he screwed up. so those are the president's words. that's all i can give you at this time. we do believe that we should not just look at the 90 minutes. the president has done more than any other modern day presidents administration. historic. historic things have gotten done. when i was watching the democratic caucus, they talked about $35 insulin.

capping that. when you think about seniors paying hundreds of hundreds of dollars, we were able to get that done because a very important piece of legislation that we moved through, right? and only democrats made that happen. that's also because of the leadership of this president. that's just one. that's a bipartisan infrastructure. there's the chips in science act. there's the pact act for our veterans. there are things he's been able to do that elected officials -- >> as promised, here is senator schumer taking questions. >> and serve the next four years. >> as i've said before, i'm with joe. yes. >> do you expect based off differences of opinion in the democratic party about the president, his ability to serve, that there might be a challenge at the convention and if there is, is there an ability to throw out virtual nomination? >> as i've said before, i'm with

joe. yes. don't yell. way in the back. >> i'm curious your reaction to senator whitehouse's request about investigating clarence thomas. is this something you support? >> the supreme court is way off the deep end and in so many different ways as we've documented today. senator whitehouse, durbin, have many ways of trying to get to the bottom of this, clean up the court in a variety of ways. i'm looking carefully at all of them. >> senator murray who just left, made a statement last night saying that she believes that biden needs to do more to demonstrate that he's strong enough to beat donald trump. particularly a vision. must seriously consider the best way to preserve his legacy. do you agree with her sentiment? >> as i've said before, i'm with joe. thank you. >> doesn't that put -- >> okay. so the big answer from majority leader schumer there is i'm with

joe. it's a lot of what we have been hearing from lawmakers today. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. it looks like president biden is winning the staring contest he's having with democratic lawmakers, with donors, thought leaders. that they are blinking so far and he is not. there was a house family meeting earlier today where house lawmakers got together and discussed what they think should happen. with president biden. one of the attendees of that meeting told nbc news it felt like a funeral. we're going to play what some of the other lawmakers were able to catch up with said and the consensus or lack thereof about joe biden. >> are you on the same page? >> no. >> what do you mean? >> not even in the same book.

riding with biden. absolutely. >> riding with biden. >> did anyone mention -- >> we are riding with biden. >> was there a conversation about -- >> we are riding with biden. >> my concern is the debate performance. >> what if he has one more bad performance? or a slip up. if that does happen, are all bets off? >> no, i don't think so. i think we're committed. >> do you think you can stay in the race? >> i don't think he should stay in the race. >> those last two representatives had previously called for gotten really close to calling for joe biden to step aside. what about the others? before this meeting, the house meeting this morning, they were eight house lawmakers, democrats who were calling for president biden to step aside. they include the ranking member

of the house armed services committee. representative adam smith. is he now going to blink as well and get in line? let's ask him because he's joining us. democratic congressman from washington state and ranking member as i said from the armed services committee, adam smith. thank you so much for joining us. i know you were not in the meeting today. first off, why not? and secondly, has your opinion changed? >> my opinion has not changed. and why not, i actually had armed services committee business. we were looking at the mccurdy breach, plus the caucus knows where i stand and know my opinion hasn't changed. i've heard some of the commentary. i think joe biden's done an outstanding job as president. the things his press secretary was talking about on insulin. on the chips act. on infrastructure. on a whole series of issues. i think he's done a great job. i think we need to deliver that message. it has never been a question in my mind as to whether or not joe biden is a good man and a great

president. the question is can he prosecute the case against donald trump and for the democratic message in our policies going forward? i have not changed my opinion that there are many other prominent democrats who could prosecute that case better and the stakes are so high we just shouldn't take that risk. >> do you think the white house, the campaign, the president himself, is being honest with you, the american public, about his ablties? >> i can't really comment on that. that gets into inside details about what they've said and done. all i know is what i've observed and what people saw in the debate and in other instances. so i'm not going to get into that. that's up to them to figure out what they're saying or not. i will say that on the healthcare issue, there needs to be greater transparency. his healthcare is in two. two straight white house press briefings have been focused on his healthcare. the question is out there. some people are saying well

democrats should basically shut up and fall in line. we're not the ones bringing up this issue. the american people are bringing up this issue. and we have to deal with it. you just watched, sorry, chuck schumer, i'm with you. that's great, but the american want answers. okay? they don't want it to look like, yeah, can't talk about that. the stakes are so incredibly high here. and again, i just wish that the biden team, the white house, the campaign, would put the ego aside. put what joe biden necessarily wants aside and take an honest look at the stakes in this election and whether or not they can honestly say that at this moment, joe biden is going to be able to prosecute that case between now and november. >> respectfully, it does sound like you're saying that no, they're not being honest. are they being honest to the american public? >> it's a difference of opinion.

but i would say yeah. i think it's a fair point. look, i think honest is a strong statement. i think they're dodging. okay? in a way that doesn't look good. they're not being as honest and authentic with the american people as they can be. look, the president has had some struggles. before that debate. and i was with him 100%. i've been on shows like this before and people have asked fe me. he's not the best communicator, the best campaigner, but he's a really good president. i could say several months ago on cnn, that look, i would rather have someone who's good at the job than someone good at campaigning for the job. after that debate performance and what followed, i just, the inability to deliver that message has risen to the point where i think more democrats should be concerned about it. >> do you think there should be an open convention or do you think there should be a nomination of kamala harris?

>> i leave that up to the delegates. personally, i would support harris. i think she's done a great job at vice president. in the last couple of years, she's been a very strong voice on a number of important issues. i i tend the munich security conference every year. she's been taking the lead for the administration at the conference, talking about ukraine, nato, in a very strong and compelling way. certainly on choice. she has also been strong and compelling, but that would be up to the delegates. everyone says they had an election and everyone voted for joe. two things, one, there was in meaningful opposition and second, if that debate had happened in november of last year before those people voted, do you think that would have changed the way democrats viewed their choices? >> democrats haven't viewed their choices as good for a long time now. i don't think they needed the debate to say hey, i want somebody else. they've been saying they want somebody else for more than a year now. polling has shown that.

so why has the party not come around to it? why are you only saying this now when voters have been saying for a long time they don't want him to run again? >> two separate questions. first of all on me, two things crystallized after the debate. one, i thought there was a chance biden wouldn't run. prior to that, biden didn't have a chance and i'm not into suicide missions. plus, the second thing, that debate made it a lot worse. as anyone watching that debate can say. it was a tipping point for me. prior to that, it's like look. nobody's perfectly articulate and i could justify and say yes, i think he's the right candidate. after that debate, i couldn't, as far as the rest of the party is concerned, i hesitate to speak for people but i'll come back to two things. one, the enormous amount of respect and frankly love that we have for joe biden and the service that he has done to this country and the desire to defend him by the way from a lot of the garbage attacks that f come from

republicans and others. so that passion is there for him. second, this is a legitimate question, which i'm getting a lot of now. if he's going to be to nominee, you can't criticize him. my opinion is a, stakes are too high, we need a different candidate. b, it was only since we started criticizing a few days ago that the biden campaign ramped up their efforts. seven or eight days passed without much. we started criticizing, they woke um. so i don't think criticism is necessarily a bad thing. >> do you think joe biden can beat donald trump? >> he can, sure. i don't think it's likely. and if he turns out to be the nominee, i'm all in. let's go, because he's better than any of the other choices out there. but it is an enormous risk to take and i think he would have a hard time making the best case for the democratic party. >> let me ask it this way. do you think if he is re-elected that he's capable of making game

time decisions at a moment's notice all 24 hours of the day? >> i don't know. and that's why i think we should have, you know, more transparent. i tend to think yes. he has to date despite having some of the struggles we saw. i forgot who it was, making a very compelling case that when the ship hit the bridge in maryland, 3:40 in the morning, joe biden was on the phone saying what can we do. i've seen him fly back and forth. right now, i don't have doubts about his ability to do the job as president. what i have doubts about is his ability to successfully and effectively prosecute the case against donald trump and for the democratic party. >> can i ask you that again? we've seen visually a decline in joe biden over the past few years. i watch him all the time. i probably watch him more than you do. i sit in this chair and go to press conferences he holds or

events he holds and there's been a decline. do you think that decline is going to stop now? are you confident that in two, three years that he's still going to be able to make the game time decisions as he made about the bridge? >> again, two things about that. number one, right now, today, i am. two, i'm not a doctor. look, i think we all know that aging is aging. and the clock only ticks in one direction but right now in this moment, i'm confident. i'm not going to get into predicting the future. if at some point in the future, it gets to the point where i look at that and can't say that, that's a different conversation. >> do you think that the democratic party would have a better chance of beating donald trump with somebody else? is there -- >> 1000%. that's why i'm doing this. look, i know a lot of people are like, oh, my gosh, it will be a contested convention. if there's one thing the

american people like, they like something new. always have. in fact, they've been begging for the last two years to give some other candidate. if we as a democratic party gave them something new, i think the boost we would get out of that would far outweigh any concerns about how we got that nominee there in the first place. >> how does the saying go, never let a good crisis go to waste? >> i never liked that saying particularly for a variety of reasons. not saying it now. >> it's a wrong emanuelism. >> yes. understood. >> all right. adam smith. ranking member of the armed service committee in the house. thank you very much for joining us and thank you for being so honest with us. >> thank you. joining us now from capitol hill is nbc news senior national political reporter, sahil. adam smith is digging in his heels. he's not going anywhere. we did see movement from others who called for president biden to step aside. do you think that this conversation that the house

lawmakers had today, the senate as well, is the end of the conversation? >> reporter: i don't think it's the end, but there's been a real vibe shift with democrats over the last 24, 36 hours. the dam is holding. there were a lot of people who thought coming into this week, the first week the house and senate are back after recess since that shocking debate performance that the dam would break. that a bunch of these democratic lawmakers who we've known for a while, about a week now if not longer, have been privately skeptical that bide p should stay in the race. might believe he should drop out. the full meeting of house democrats this morning, a lot of them stayed quiet. there were others who were publicly skeptical that joe biden should stay in the race and are suddenly sounding less skeptical. several things have moved the conversation in this direction. firstly, the congressional black caucus rallying to joe biden's side. this is a real power center within the democratic party. they were crucial in getting joe

biden nominated in 2020 and they are firmly sticking with him. they had a call with joe biden yesterday where they talked about the road ahead. joe biden thanked them. there's also the fact that progressives including congresswoman aoc and bernie sanders are sticking with biden. you talk all that together and democrats have decided he's going to be the nominee. he's not going anywhere. may as well try to make the best of a bad situation. >> thank you so much. joining us now, nbc news national political correspondent, steve kornacki. there's been a lot of polling done since the debate. can you show us if there's been a change in the numbers? >> yeah. there has been and it becomes a question for democrats how do you interpret it. what we're going to show you here, these are eight polls. these eight polls have all been conducted entirely after the debate and these are the results from those polls. what you're seeing next to it, same poll, their previous poll before the debate. so you're getting each poll compared what they found before,

what they found after. a few of these though were conducted back in the spring so there's a time lapse. but i think you see some clear patterns here. first of all, this one is obvious. every poll since the debate has either had donald trump ahead of joe biden or a tie and most polls have shown some kind of movement toward trump and away from biden. not all of them, but you see a clear pattern. i think you see a trump lead here, if you average together, his lead is 3.4 points in the post debate polling. and movement from the previous polls about two points. about a point and a half, two points of movement toward trump since the debate. it becomes a question for democrats how do you interpret that. some democrats might make the case that look, this is still close. the bottom hasn't fallen out. it's not like biden's lost ten points, 20 points. something clear and definitive. democrats can say this is

something that can be recovered from. on the flip side, other democrats, your previous guest making this point would look at this and say the bottom line, joe biden doesn't lead in a single one of these polls. he's lost ground in most of these polls and we live in a world where the margins are very thin in elections one way or the other and a shift of a couple points may seem small but it can be decisive. so some democrats could look at these with alarm and others could say you know, it hasn't changed that much. >> indeed. steve, thank you very much. still ahead, james says president biden can't win. what he says the party should do to get a nominee. and the rules he envisions for bill clinton and barack obama. we just talked about lawmakers starting to get in line. what about world leaders? they're in d.c. for the start of the nato summit.

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quotes, mark my words. joe biden is going to be out of the 2024 presidential race whether he is ready to admit it or not. veteran democratic strategist, james carville, said that. he said he's done being coy. he said the party needs to come up with a plan and fast.

and if it were up to him, he would go with james clyburn when he suggested a mini primary, four town halls between now and the august convention. one in the south, northeast, midwest and west with barack obama and bkds helping to nominate the candidates. giving the convention delegates all the info they need to choose the person best suited to win in november. the person who will best beat donald trump which could be the vice president who carville calls formidable saying quote, you want the prosecutor or the criminal. not the worst question to put to the american public this november. all right. joining us now, staff writer for the atlantic and msnbc political contributor, mark, katie rogers who's out with a new piece on kamala harris and national action network president and host of politics nation, reverend al sharpton. mark, it feels like the

conversation is shifting a bit at least among democratic lawmakers as we've been covering during this day. certainly in the last 26 minutes. a coalition among democratic lawmakers to say that joe biden's not leaving. there's nothing we should do so we should get behind joe biden. there's a lot of conversation happening outside of washington about joe biden. what do you think of the suggestion of a mini primary with town halls? >> i'm glad james has stopped being coy. finally, the gloves are off. he's been very frontal about this for a long time. there's a feeling i think from my sense and watching sahil's report and other reports that resignation is setting in. i don't think that the relative lack of public calls for biden to step aside reflects the true feelings of many of them, but i

think that you know, in some ways, there is great, democrats are very fearful of joe biden actually and joe biden's world and his base. in moments like this, you need people to step up and tell the truth. and one lesson we've learned through the trump republican party is that's not something that a lot of people generally sign up for when things happen like this. i think definitely there's been a pivot to at least some momentum that something new, something should shift in this story. to something more around more sort of resignation that i think you know suits the party and president at this point. >> rev, what do you think? >> i think if there's anyone in american history that deserves at least the chance to make up his final mind, it would be joe biden. what he has done in office. i think no president in my

lifetime has done. and i just hate to see this back and forward and let him and his family make the final decision. that's one. second, i think that the democrats are losing a lot of time. by not bringing up the dangers of donald trump who's almost as old and totally unhinged. i would be saying you want to take some examinations, let's take mutual examinations. this is a man who has bobbled sentences and we're acting like a young gladiator against an old sage. no, we're talking about two guys that could be sitting in a nursing home while having this debate if you want to make both of them look like they are of that age. so i really think that we need to respect the fact that joe biden has delivered a lot and he should have the respect of making the decision. >> joe biden has delivered a lot. the administration has gotten

bipartisan deals done that would have been difficult for anybody else to do. the jobs numbers are good. the economy's good. new jobs being created. there's a lot for joe biden to run on but the public doesn't know about it. people will say that's the fault of joe biden. and you're talking about joe biden making the decision himself. isn't this a decision that's in many ways bigger than him? >> i think the decision is bigger than him but it's ultimately his to make because here's why i say that. do we really want to set a precedent that we force a candidate out and that follows an american political history? i remember when i was a kid, 13 or 14 when lyndon johnson stepped down. we didn't force him out. we were against the war in vietnam. we weren't talking about he was too old. if he set a precedent, my fear is that if we set a precedent that a guy or lady has a bad

debate, that we can therefore move them out with no evidence that their health is beyond what would make them capable, i think it's a sad and bad precedent. >> lyndon johnson saw the writing on the wall in terms of his campaign. let me -- >> and it was his decision. >> yeah, but the public said we're not supporting lyndon johnson any longer. >> and the public has the right to say what they want here, but let biden hear the public and make his decision. >> the public has said for more than a year now that they don't want joe biden to run again. we've had non-stop polling to show people want a different option. they don't want him to run again but the public wasn't given another option. not a real option in the primaries. the primary was basically uncontested. it was joe biden. so the public had been asking for another option but they weren't given one. do you still think it's him being forced out or is this the public saying -- >> but i'm hearing a lot of public on the other side they

don't want him out. i spent the weekend in new orleans at essence festival where the vice president was. i had people coming up saying he shouldn't be forced out. i've not had one person on my show call in and say he should be forced out. i think that a lot of people are not loving the process of what's being done because there's, when you come with some doctor came in eight times then the white house doctor said well, it wasn't about that. i think people are feeling that it is too unfair. >> the cbc's going the meet again tonight to discuss president biden. do you have any insight on what they might be talking about? >> most of them have said they're sticking with biden. i think a lot of them are going to be discussing how they mobilize at the bottom in terms of on the ground. i think that a lot of them are saying we've got to do what we

have to do. the situation is not good at all, but it's like an old gladys knight song. you have to make the best of a bad situation. >> i was speaking with a donor who told me there was a document circulating and he showed me the document. about kamala harris and how she would be a great candidate against donald trump and that she should be the one the democrats choose. there's been such a great spotlight on her for the past few days. how is she handling it? she sidestepped questions about whether she would want it. always talking about joe biden first. what's going on in her office? >> right. we just had a piece today and actually rev al, you talked to us about it. i think you put it best. she's in an uncomfortable spot, but the vice presidency is uncomfortable and that's a

little bit where she's at right now. there's nothing in her circle, her office, to indicate that she is having discussions that are in line with you know, the donor conversations you might be having. the most important thing for her now is to show absolutely no daylight between herself and the president. that said, there are people within her extended orbit i guess if you can call it that, who are making their own sort of calls and having their own discussions about what a harris ticket could look like and who could be on that with her. two people who keep coming up in these discussions, governor cooper of north carolina and governor bashir of kentucky. people like that are continuing to sort of pop up as legislators that can work with republicans and have a lot of experience in that sort of space when things are increasingly sort of

partisan in their states. so, she might not be having those discussions. people in her office may not be having them, but those discussions are happening. >> i want to linger on harris for another moment, mark. for a while, she was outright dismissed as somebody who can't be taken seriously in washington. as her vice presidential role didn't shine the way that people had thought it would. in those early days. the subject or conversation has changed very rapidly in the past few days to give her another look, to re-examine her as a campaigner. the work she's been doing for abortion right. the way she defended joe biden after the debate the other day. the conversation around her is different today than it was two months ago. >> yeah, absolutely. i think part of that is that the nominee himself, the president, you know, has really never looked worse. the debate is really the defining statement on that. you have a very low bar.

looks like she's clearing that. but i also think don't underestimate the power of what a change could look and feel like. you immediately have a new face. the race is all of a sudden shaken up. the same kind of tired narrative we've all been stuck in for so long that americans have been so dispirited by is all of a sudden turned on its head and wow, we don't have the age question. at least on that side. we don't have all the biden fatigue that seems to be sort of calcifying up around this. so kamala harris i think benefits from the idea that she would be a new and in this case, plan b, that is a frankly you know, to many people, very attractive alternative and you know, then there's the sort of plan c thing, the mini primary that people have talked about. but i think she benefits from the expectations that have calcified around. >> and she's a prosecutor. she's a prosecutor. and donald trump is a convicted criminal. >> i think carville said it

right. if it came to that, the prosecutor against a convicted felon, you couldn't write this story any better and the one who is shown that they have the confidence that if it came to that, that kamala harris could perform as president, commander in chief, is joe biden. he chose her for vice president and choosing your vice president means you feel they could step in the role if it becomes necessary. so the biggest one to nominate her would be joe biden putting her as vice president. >> would you be confident in her running? >> not only be confident, i'd be relaxed that she can handle it as i am that joe biden can. i think i don't know where everybody voted, but where i voted, we voted for both of them at the same time. >> true. thank you very much. mark, katie, thank you guys. coming up, donald trump has been laying low as the country debates whether joe biden should stay in the race, but he's back out today. what the former president could be signaling in florida and what

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some of our biggest allies are in d.c. today for the 75th anniversary summit of nato. it is a crucial moment with two

wars overseas, two major elections that have changed leadership in france and the u.k. and a third major election just a few months away. the u.s. election and the question of whether the leader who has kept the alliance together in the face of russia, president biden, will remain the president. joining us now, aaron gillcrist. we've been calling it a high stakes few days for the president. i think that's right. it is very much high stakes for a number of reasons. >> reporter: i think you're right. obviously, the president firstly wants to be able to communicate the performance of global alliances and the importance of american leadership around the world and particular as it relates to nato. an organization that has grown this year with the addition of two new countries. the president says has been, that the president says happened as a result of his leadership. he's going to be talking about the responsibility that nato has as it marks the 75th anniversary this year to continuing to make sure that countries like ukraine are able to stand up to

aggression from russia. so we anticipate we'll hear this week according to a senior administration official that nato will be working to shore up ukraine. contributes more militarily and financially to help ukraine fortify its military to help stand up against russia. of course, there's also the domestic side of what's happening today where you'll have a lot of people watching president biden on this world stage which he's been preparing for the last couple of days in particular for the events that will begin tonight with this kickoff ceremony in the building you see behind me. people are going to be looking to see how president biden delivers the message in the speech he'll give here in a couple of hours as well as how he handles the working sessions over the next couple of days and of course the press conference he's expected to hold on thursday after meeting with the ukrainian president where he'll face questions directly. >> thank you very much. joining us now, president and founder of the eurasian group. good to have you. what do foreign leaders or allies think of president biden

right now? >> they don't think he can serve another four years. and i will say this is true of every leader that i have met with. that's attending the nato summit. doesn't matter if they come from the right or the left wing of their respective political spectrums and they are, this isn't news to them. they've reported this from the g-7 summit. they talk about this with the president in normandy. it's not that they don't like him. in fact, they're deeply concerned. nato allies, more than any other countries around the world, they're concerned about what it would mean if trump were to become president given his stated policies on ukraine, nato and european union. it's not like they're saying we don't like biden. we want him to go. they just don't think he's up to it. they think he's going to lose. is she going to step down? who's going to make him do it?

you think it would be all about ukraine and nato. the reality is the united states is the lynch pin of nato and if they can't count on the u.s., they've got a serious problem. >> do they think that joe biden is not up for campaigning or do they think that he's not up for actually governing? >> not up for campaigning the way he campaigned four years ago. that's not just about the debate. that's even true with the abc stephanopoulos interview. it's true with the way they have limited the amount of time that he has with the public. you know, much more sort of prescripted and shorter statements, fewer bilaterals. shorter bilaterals with world leaders. they all notice it. these are his principal allies. they have all seen it happen. and it's not that they're worried that biden is not capable of being president right now.

they're not saying he needs to resign. i didn't hear that from anyone, but i did hear there's no way that he's going to be able to capably continue to campaign effectively for another four months. never mind carry out four years after that. and again, they will not say that publicly. >> will they say that to him? >> they're allies. >> will they say it to him? >> i think it's hard to say that to him. it's hard to say that directly to him. but the people around him are certainly hearing it. the senators that are in the meetings. the house members that are in the meetings. and so you're getting a lot of this feedback. there's a reason why you know there aren't, you're not getting, the problem is that there's no organization. no leadership that is going to get together and say okay, we are all together now going to stand up publicly and say it has to be x instead of biden. so what you have is a majority of senior people that are saying

privately that they would rather have someone other than biden but that doesn't get you from here to there unless biden himself is willing to take that on. >> there's a live arrival of some of the leaders of nato getting to washington, d.c. he's going to have president biden, that news conference, where he's going to try to assuage the concerns of the american people without a telepromter. but i wonder if there's anything he can do behind the scenes to convince those nato allies that he's up for it? you say they've seen this coming. is there a way this he can convince them he's still the guy that can win? >> again, they want him to win. maybe not viktor orban in hungary, but the large, the vast majority of the foreign leaders that are here in washington right now, they want biden to win. and back in the munich security conference when they gathered in late february, i would say they thought he would.

over the last few months, it's been closer to a coin flip. right now, they mostly think he won't. that is on the basis of them continuing to spend time with him over the course of the last one, two years. they've seen the deterioration. they've seen him slow down and it's not just physically slowing down. it's repeating the same anecdote twice in an individual meeting. i've heard that. from a world leader today. it's not recognizing someone that he knew quite well when he came up and introduced them. again, we're talking about a world leader here. these sorts of they thinks you can't not recognize them and it's not because they don't like him. it's not because they don't want him to be president. that's not it at all. they feel like they have so much at stake in this election. let's face it. the united states, one way or the other, got through trump one election will probably get through trump if he wins again

and ultimately is u.s. is a far more richer, resilient country. but when you're talking about countries that are on the front line with a war where the russians have invaded ukraine and nato is standing up, they have a lot more at stake. with this u.s. election than most americans do. and so when they're saying they're really worried that biden isn't up for it, this is a matter of actual national security in their minds. >> there's a question of how well nato will fair with a donald trump second term. ian, thank you so much. after the break, very quick break. we're going to talk about donald trump. he's backing away from some major policy initiatives. what they are. also, he might be close to choosing a vp. don't go anywhere. choosing a vp. don't go anywhere.

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why not give your wealth a second look? book your free meeting today at creativeplanning.com. creative planning -- a richer way to wealth. with all the focus on president biden, donald trump has been unusually quiet, but he's back out on the campaign trail today holding a rally in florida. so why florida? joining us now, nbc news correspondent vaughn hilliard. lots of chatter that, i don't know, it's a more elaborate setup. marco rubio. are they going to make a surprise announcement at this rally? >> usually, katie, we know donald trump does a little more setup. >> tease things out. >> exactly. why would he do it on a tuesday night at 7 p.m. eastern. >> when everyone is talking about joe biden. >> senator marco rubio, his

family is slated to be there tonight with he and several members of the trump family. look, there is a case to make for why it should be marco rubio. at the same time, if he were in fact to be a vp running mate, both of them would therefore be residents of florida. one would need to change their residency. >> he could say d.c.? >> you could have the republican vp individual running out of d.c. sure, you could. if he were to move away to d.c., let's say, well, you can't really be a senator from florida because that's an elected position. therefore, he would have to step aside and that would start a whole nother conversation tonight. >> you're not bullish on the vp being senator marco rubio. are you looking more towards a j.d. vance or doug berda?

>> who should i pick as vp? >> the last go around in 2016 was ngt, christ christie, mike pence. the night before he went to mike pence's house to ask him, there was a rally in indianapolis where he essentially took the stage and had to make a showing, an apprentice style showing. he announced him that night and a couple more days there. in this instance there's going to be another rally on saturday in pennsylvania. we are waiting to see whether j.d. vance, doug burgum will be there. for all three of the supposed finalists, i want to be clear, there are other people not to rule out, people like ben carson, each of these individuals have said nasty things about donald trump in the past. >> we've run out of time. he is trying to back away from project 2025 which was written by a lot of his aides and current campaign allies. we will talk about that another day. we are out of time. that is going to do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts

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