trees or rolling in the grass. >> it is making strange relations more bearable. >> i try hard to end on a good note. tonight we are. a little pandemonium taking us off the air. on that note, i wish you a good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me. late with me.

in just a minute we're going to hear from the michigan governor. it is good timing. even before the debate, governor whitman was considered a key figure in this selection in the future democratic party. since that, her name has been mentioned with greater frequency , should president biden decide to leave the race. >> pen what is going on inside the party at self where there has been a lot of news today. democrats met behind closed doors today to discuss the future of the candidates the. have given a variety of responses about where they are. >> let's see the press

conference. with the campaign stops and all of this. it will all be necessary. >> joe biden has my support. >> my colleagues need to recognize that. >> he is in the race and i support him. >> he had a bad debate. former president trump had a horrific presidency. calling him president biden to step aside. sounds like even the most vulnerable are coming to the realization that biden may not

be going anywhere. a group of moderate democrats calling for biden to step down is seeing their revolt crumble. they called a rapidly disintegrating movement to get biden off the ticket. president biden has remained adamant that he will stay in the race and fight on. he has a fairly packed schedule with a slew of public appearances. tonight he gave remarks at the nato summit which follows an interview and a surprise phone interview. this thursday, president biden will hold a press conference. he would travel to one of the most important state, the state of michigan. after the debate, there was a new reason to focus. the young charismatic and

relatively popular governor, gretchen witmer. they might leverage on a theoretical ticket. governor witmer said she is 100% behind the position to stay in the race. it is something that is not going to be unhelpful. remember, in the final years, governor witmer emerged as a hero. she stared down the threats to withhold key covid aid. she withstood violent threats and domestic terrorism. including a plot to kidnap him to assassinate the governor. all of that is detailed in her

new book, what i have learned about life, leadership and everything in between. thank you for being here. you picked a doozy of a week to have your book come out. we will get to that in a moment. i want to ask you about the state of politics. the editorial board has been unstinting in the call for him to step out. there is another op-ed out today. the latest polling showing 74% of voters believe joe biden is too old to serve. >> they think we understand that. >> i went to dc with a number

of colleagues. we sat there days after the debate. he is and that and he is going to fight like to make sure that we continue the work he has begun. i know that it rattled a lot of people will. it was the worst concerns about having two older candidates running for this important office yet he has been right on all the issues. he is ready to go. i am proud to support the president. he has to prove he is up to the moment and i think he is going to. >> i do wonder, three quarters of the public think he is too old. is that something he can outrun? >> the only way to shift to show what you are capable of. that is what he is doing.

you have to flood the zone and show people you are up to the moment. he is getting a lot done. it is a stark contrast. i am feeling solid about where we are. there is a lot to do. >> you feel solid. there is some reporting today that a group of vulnerable swing state house democrats had a meeting this morning and it was characterized as despondent with actual tears. not tears for joe biden but tears because he was staying in the race. what is your message to them as they try to grapple with the prospect of the president staying in the race? >> the only one that's going to make that decision is the president. now it is time to roll up our sleeves. we have a lot to do.

we are capable of meeting the moment. people are concerned about the cost of everything. everything that joe biden and kamala harris have done to put more money in their pocket. whether it is bringing down the cost of insulin and rebuilding infrastructure, onshore and supply chains. we have a boom happening. it was not happening under the last sky. those are good paying jobs. that is what is at stake. the right to make your own decisions about the body and healthcare. talk about what may or may not happen is based on one decision. let's go. >> i get it. our success is dependent on all of us doing the hard work.

>> this quote, he told the campaign chair that after the debate, michigan was no longer winnable. >> that is the arrival for the democratic nomination. what is the reaction. >> it is irresponsible. attributing something that happened in a two-person conversation. she called me like a lot of people. i said it has always been tough in michigan. i have set it every year. the elections are always close in michigan. we don't clutch our pearls and get upset.

it's going to stay in the margin of error. i would never say it is not winnable because that is untrue. >> in 2020 if it was 148,000 votes. >> in 2016 it was 11,000. in 2020 it was 150,000. when i won, i won by 11 points. you don't win without crossover votes and doing that hard work in showing up. reminding what you have done to help make their lives better. that is the work we have yet to do. i am confident we have a powerful story to tell. when you talk about the work, i see a glimmer. there is a happy warrior vibe. i'm not asking for advice.

what would you like to see in terms of the strategy. you have used humor to secure critics. how much should he use humor about his age or talk about his age? what is your assessment of the game plan? >> some of the best advices let joe be joe. >> it was hard to show up. joe biden cares about people. he keeps showing up for other people will. the happy warrior persona is something i had to work out.

it doesn't come naturally. >> i love death threats, sure. >> that is really important. he is not afraid. he is going to continue it. >> do you like what was adopted in recent days, only the lord almighty is getting me out of here. buckle up. >> is that the right posture to adopt? >> it is important to show swagger. what can donald trump say about his time as president. we had hundreds of thousands of people die from covid. the economy was in dire straits. this president has receipts. he can tell people what he has done. that is an important part of it.

>> you have taken on trump in a way others have. you have been one of the most successful vanquishes. you write, i refuse to let the president defined me. i took the insult, i flip did and made it my own. that is the secret to dealing with bullies. you make the weapon your shield. how does that apply in this moment? >> how do you flip that. how do you understand he is not in that best position. >> he is a good salesperson. 's actions do not follow the rhetoric. to frights.

>> it is getting overturned. he put three justices on the supreme court that lied to congress, betray their oath and the decision came out because of their work. he took credit for it and now he is trying to be softer. give me a break. we have to call it out and use plain language. they are busy. not consuming information like you and i are. they are trying to get the kids off to school and get to work on time. we have to help them understand and remember how high the stakes are and what is at risk. >> you bring up that platform and the way they are saying it is a state-level issue. i am sensing and the fact that you want to talk about how to talk about abortion that there is some concern that this strategy can be successful. it

will convince lower information voters that they are not that crazy. they believe in state rights or they will hear about the softening of the platform. how concerned should democrats be that republicans are playing on ignorance and betting that they can win? >> we could assume everyone understands those high stakes on a variety of fronts. we have to make it very clear and connect the dots. there is no way women will be fighting for their lives in some of the state's, if it were not for trump and his appointees. we know the case can very much come back to life. we know the reason for not rendering judgment is all that stands between us and the new situation where we can't access medical abortion or contraception. they get rid of contraception, ivf.

and then stem cell research. that could be outlawed in addition to a lot of others that we have. like the right to marry who you love. republicans have been good thing it is all about the court. when you control the court you control americans lives. we can't help people lose sight. >> we are looking down the barrel of a number of years. there is a conservative rollback. that could extend into 2028 when president biden will not be running again. it is certainly mentioned in 2028.

>> is it fair game? you talk about the mention when you talk about owning mistakes as an important lesson. you acknowledge you made amos take by violating your own state restrictions. then you also point out gavin newsom, made a similar list take. we have have that in common, even though he was dining at a michelin restaurant. the apology is the same. is that the essential difference? >> not at all. i love gavin newsom. he is doing a great job and i appreciate all the work he is doing. he has certainly helped me. i wanted to point out, we are human. we make mistakes on occasion.

he made a mistake and he owned it and did it with dignity. i did as well. it was a different circumstance. i've -- covid restrictions. >> maybe it was worth it at a dive bar. >> we are all human beings and we all fall short. the true leaders like gavin newsom on it and apologize. that is exactly what he did and what i did as well. our leaders are not perfect. they are not better than us. anyone of them that looks down on people or treats people that don't matter or thing are flawless are full of it. that is why i wanted to share that story and give him credit for doing what i think was the honorable thing. >> can i ask you one more

question? as you talk about approaching politics with humility enjoying curiosity enthusiasm, you are someone that faced death threat. a plot to kidnap and kill you. you note this in the book, to this day you don't understand why your attempt to keep the people of michigan safe resulted in such an angry reaction. i wonder if not in the case of this plot particularly, how and why you think of right wing has gotten so incensed and so dangerously violent around public officials and the notion of community and shared experience in keeping the community say. what has happened? >> that is what i hope to understand. when they talk about it, i also talk about my favorite thing to do is engage with people. i am as comfortable in a black church as i am in a bowling alley. more so than a black tie

dinner. now with the rhetoric and threats, i am not as comfortable. it is sad. i would like to sit down with one of them understand. i think ted lasso is one of the wisest people, he said be curious and not judgmental. i would like to ask. it is not rational to take up weapons and threatened to kill a sitting governor because she told you to wear a mask. what was going on in their lives but i can understand or be a better person or better governor. maybe it wouldn't be a good use of time. maybe there is something to learn. >> it feels like they are overdue. i am going to leave it there. i know this is a big week. i am so deeply risha evolve your time. we are working through it. the book is out today. what i

learned about life, leadership and everything in between. there is a mention of tattoos. it is worth reading. >> and shark week. >> everyone including trump likes talking about shark week. coming out, trump attorneys have a new strategy for the next phase of the criminal case. donald trump weighs in on biden and the democrats as they try to steer the party out of the woods. jonathan martin joins me next. .

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the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. na"soulmates.". soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title. the radical left democrat party is divided in chaos and having a full-scale breakdown because they can't decide which of the candidates is more unfit,

sleepy crooked joe biden or laughing kamala. donald trump spoke at a rally in jarrell, florida. signaling that after two weeks of semi-silence, he is ready to lean back in. president biden spent the day addressing world leaders in honor of the nato alliance and hosting the virtual call with democratic mayors as he continues to rally support for reelection. joining me now is jonathan martin who is a senior political columnist for politico. in the course of rambling and unhinged remarks, he did challenge joe biden to another debate. it seems less likely to happen. i wonder whether you think another debate is in store? >> biden would like another one. he wants to get a second crack

at trump. i expect trump would agree to a second debate. maybe he will do it because he can't resist. i think advisors would strenuously advocate that he not do that. it's in all likelihood that he will have an advantage. >> one can never know with donald trump. yet here he is. i do want to ask, in terms of biden, he is making calls to mayors, he had meetings with governors and the outreach to the caucus. what you think of the strategy to circle the wagons? it seems to be effective in some parts but not all parts.

whether it is jon tester or brown or michael bennet saying president biden is going to lose. >> i have been speaking three or four days to members of congress and governors that are trying to figure it out. it is deep anger at the family and folks in the white house. it is an untenable position. the president does not want to withdraw. democrats were he is going to lose by a considerable margin. here is part of it, if you are a democrat and you put out a statement saying biden should not lead, and biden refuses, guess what, this fall the republican party is going to throw that back and say you

don't even want him in the race. how can you defend him now. i think the strategy is to try and replay the 2020 primary. the liberal elite don't like me but i got the voters on my side. that is working in some corners. he's obviously got strong support on capitol hill. he is trying to ride this out by reprising that strategy. here is the complication. what happens the next time? what happens when the next wave comes out showing him losing and losing considerably. that is what i'm curious about. >> to that there will be a

press conference on thursday. i wonder what the risk and reward scenario is given his performance in the interview that did not seem to quash concern but it didn't exacerbate concern that exist. what are the expect haitians about the strategy to put him out more, even in moments where he is not reading from the prompter? >> when you are driving somewhere you see a gas station or a liquor store and it says last chance for gas were last chance for liquor, i feel like press conference is the last chance they have. they are going over the bridge. if you want to pull over and fill up your tank or by bourbon before you go to a dry state, this is the moment. this conference, if he hits it out of the park, the pressure will have.

if it doesn't go well, you will see one final-round of democrats trying to get him out. you will see senators who have been quiet go public and call for him to step out. it is a high-stakes moment. time is wasting. next week is the convention. trump is picking a running mate. this is the week. that press conference will tell us a lot. >> jonathan martin who is taking better highways if there are signs saying last stop for liquor. i have seen lastgasp. >> jonathan martin. always great to get your wisdom. moore is ahead including what is behind discussions about whether kamala harris is or isn't qualified to be at the top of the ticket.

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last week in the decision along ideological lines, supreme court ruled that donald trump has absolute immunity for official acts but he can face charges for unofficial conduct. that decision opens the door for the u.s. district judge to hold evidentiary hearings or many trials. the hearings could potentially feature testimony from witnesses including mike pence to determine which charges against trump can survive. today a report details legal strategies to prevent that from coming to pass. 's lawyers are ready to argue that the judge does not need to call witnesses that she can just decide based on legal arguments. even if she does go ahead with the hearings, defenses planning on using executive privilege to block the testimony. joining me now is a former

federal prosecutor that specialized in financial fraud and white-collar crime and is a senior writer for politico. help me understand whether this is a feasible scenario that the judge doesn't need witnesses and can do it based on theory alone. >> it should not be possible. if i were trump's lawyers that would make that same type of argument. there are things that are striking. they left open how the judge should approach implementing the standard. second, with the exception of the indictment that relates to interactions which are out of the case, the court emphasized it needs to be a fact specific determination.

to take one example, part of the indictment that concerns his tweets on january 6. if you read that, the court said in order to determine if it is official or unofficial, the factfinder may need to learn about other communications around that period in the context. what else was said? who was involved. none of that is in the indictment but all of those are facts that the supreme court said may be relevant. it is an uphill battle to say they would close preliminary fact-finding. that contemplates preliminary finding that may require testimony. >> presumably testimony with white house officials. mac mike pence is off the table when the court is opening the door to asking the judge to

know more about those conversations? >> i would expect those roadblocks. if i were the justice department i would point to the various points where the issues have been litigated. often during the grand jury process they were issues that arose. it would be a harder sell to get attorney general bar on the stand, given the supreme court holding about how trumps -- trump is immune from prosecution . and the separate ruling that the justice department cannot introduce the conduct even if the underlying conduct concerns unofficial conduct. a conservative reading would suggest that maybe bill barr is off limits. there were many other people that were telling trump's claims were false. i don't think he is an

essential witness. >> when you talk about what is happening, do you imagine, i'm -- . would you imagine that the special counsel's office is trying to preemptively trim this indictment so as not to drag out the proceedings any further or are they just going to wait and march to the timeline? >> i am sure they are discussing that. there are pros and cons. the pro would be in theory, you can wipe the slate and trim the indictment. the con, he would invite a new round of motions. motion to dismiss or even reset the schedule. it is not unprecedented for portions of the justice department

indictment to be dismissed or for portions to be stricken. the justice department does not need a superseding indictment. they can redact the portions of the indictment that the jury cannot consider or they can just not present the indictment to the jury and just present the evidence. >> there are some options. it is helpful to get your assessment. thank you for taking the time. still ahead, kamala harris may be the obvious substitute for president biden. she may also be the most controversial. i'm going to talk to my colleague about that. colleague about that.

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>> now, we always knew this election would be tough, and the past few days have been a reminder that running for president of the united states is never easy. but, the one thing we know about our president, joe biden, is that he is a fighter. he is a fighter. and he is the first to say when you get knocked down, you get back up.

we all know, many of us know what that is. >> that was vice president kamala harris today speaking at a campaign event focused on asian american native hawaiian and pacific islander communities. today was vice president harrises sixth visit to the swing state of nevada this year, but this visit was under a considerably bigger microscope than any of those previous trips, because this trip comes as prominent democrats have been openly discussing whether president biden should drop out of the race, and if that happens, whether vice president harris should replace biden at the top of the ticket. now, harris herself has publicly and repeatedly rejected the idea of the president dropping out, or of being the one to replace him, but the conversation about whether or not she would be a good choice has continued anyway. and it has already become a conversation all about race. >> if you don't agree, well, you're racist. >> pick, or you're a racist. >> just being a minority doesn't make you fit for

president. >> who, they point out was not qualified to be vice president, that president biden selected her because of her color and her gender, that's the mess they created. >> today the atlantic ran an op- ed entitled the problem with coordinating kamala harris. it reads, one common argument for the party should coordinate harris in biden's absence is that skipping over her would be racist, or be perceived as such by black democratic voters. yet, black voters have shown time and time again that their interests are practical, and that their demands are strategic. give us a candidate who will win. and that is where the intense fixation on kamala harris's race falls apart. >> you see it in polling, giving, lifeline, the only candidate who comes within striking distance of trump >> trump beats biden, but in that polling, kamala harris

beats trump. >> so the question is, could kamala harris be donald trump, if the question is a matter of pure electability, vice president harris, according to those polls, looks like the candidate democratic voters like the most as an alternative to president biden. the idea that she would be picked, as one fox news host put it's only because of her color, that argument doesn't really add up. i'm going to talk to my friend and colleague simone sanders townsend, the vice president former senior adviser, about what this disc -- discourse is really about and what it means for november, coming up next. >> four more years! years!

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get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. >> what kind of country do we want to live in? a country of freedom, compassion, and rule of law? or a country of chaos, fear,

and hate? we have the power to answer this question. our last line of defense is the ballot box. >> vice president kamala harris was in nevada today drawing a sharp contrast between a biden presidency the second term, and a trump presidency. but, the spotlight was very much fixed on vice president harris herself, as certain democrats call for her to replace president biden at the top of the democratic ticket. joining me now is simone sanders townsend host of msnbc the weekend. she has also served as former senior adviser and chief spokesperson of the vice president. simone, thank you for being here. so, fox news is saying, they've made it into a referendum, if you don't support kamala harris, you're a racist. that ignores the fact that in polling right now if there had to be replacement, harris is pulling the best, it also fundamentally misunderstands the motivations of black voters, i think.

i wonder if you could weigh in on that. a lot of people talk about what black voters want and whether or not kamala harris is there person or not, i wonder in terms of your experience and the voters you've talked to, black voters seem much more pragmatic than identity based. >> black voters are extremely pragmatic. i would argue most black women in america are magmatic, hence why they show up at the ballot box in various ways as they do. i think we had some clips, we went to blue bell, pennsylvania and like women live in the suburbs, there were a lot of people like why don't you talk to real black women? real black ladies live in the suburbs. we went to the suburbs because the suburbs have become more diverse, we talked about a range of things and one of the things we talked about, unprompted was the vice president. we talked to seven intergenerational women, they also that they liked her in one of the women posed the question, one of the women

posed the question, how would you all feel that they skipped over the vice president? they all said, we would be upset, we would not be happy, but democracy is on the line and i was like, well, look at y'all, very pragmatic, very practical. i would argue that first of all, skipping over the vice president, she is the vice president. the vice president is there to be the president in case the president can't be the president anymore, whether they are the 25th amendment, whatever. that's what the vice president is for. i know there's these thoughts but fundamentally, that is what they are there for. until the president selected her, because he believed that in the event he would not be able to be the president, she would be the president. so i don't know what people are talking about. but at the end of the day, joe biden is at the top of the ticket. it's the biden/harris ticket, and i believe that that's what it's going to be in november. >> that's what she's insisting it is. i think the conversation around her awakens a lot of feelings and preconceived notions and bigotries around women of

color. and i've got to read this quote from the wall street journal, which is talking about the vice president. this is from the editorial board. unnamed writer. various democrats are popping up in the press noting that much of the party's base would result if ms. harris were to my denomination. the suggestion is that the party base thinks the first woman of color on a national ticket as a birthright to move up to the job as opposed to the party choosing a candidate more likely to win. do you hear the dog whistle, there? the birthright of a woman of color, who believes she has a birthright. >> the audacity of the vice president, the audacity of the supporters of the vice president of the united states of america to believe that she should be first in line to the presidency, the audacity. this black lady, my goodness. these people want to pick, i hope people here my sarcasm at home. honestly, this is a fundamental misunderstanding, of two things. first, the process.

it is not the electeds and the party leaders that pick their representatives. the people pick their representatives. so, the process is not that the elected leadership, this small group should be picking for the democratic nominee is. the people pick, they picked joe biden. people can have qualms about the primary process, we can't say that the primaries weren't had, and ballots weren't cast. secondly, there's a fundamental misunderstanding of base voters. i was this weekend, we talked to black women, man on the street sound, and they brought up the issues of healthcare, of abortion, they talked about the economy, the chief concern for black women in this country are economic concerns, and they want a candidate who is going to speak to those concerns and they want the next president to do something about the economic concerns and health concerns.

four folks were members of the democratic party and have pledged support to joe biden, i have not heard many black women voters say that they are walking away from him. so i think that's why we haven't seen more members of congress come out, because they've actually heard from the constituents like, >> that's why biden is talking to the congressional black caucus. >> as he should. i think the cdc should ask for something, all this support that they are giving the president, what is joe biden going to do for them? >> from your mouth to the cbcs ear, my friend, thank you so much for joining me tonight, that is our show for this evening, now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> practical politics with simone sanders, i could listen to it all day. >> any time, we'll have her back. >> thank you. >> have a good show. of the biden stock market hit another all-time record high today. the already booming stock market could