been able to grapple with the nature of that closing of ranks around trump. it is really hard to get one's mind around the fact that there is nothing he can to that would really tarnish his standing with the people who support him. it's not a situation we have ever seen in american politics. >> dave roberts, i cannot recommend his newsletter. chronicling the most and important story. jamaal of the "new york times", thank you both. that is all in. alex wagner starts right now. alex wagner tonight starts right now. good to see you. >> i don't know what day it is. i appreciate it. i like upbeat patriotism. i love it. i only like upbeat patriotism.

thank you for that, my friend. we're going to right to our big interview with michigan governor gretchen whitmer. it's a big night over here. like i said in just a minute we're going to hear from michigan governor gretchen whitmer, which is good timing. because even before the trump-biden debate governor whitmer was considered a key figure in this election and in the likely future democratic party. and since that presidential debate her name has been mentioned with even greater frequency as a potential candidate on the democratic ticket should president biden decide to leaveul this race. we're going to talk about the election and what all this means for defeating trump and what is going on inside the democratic party itself right now where there has been a lot of news today. democrats in the house and the senate met behind closed doors today to discuss the future of the biden candidacy. coming out of those meetings democrats have given reporters a variety of responses about where they are and where they think the party should be as it

concerns president biden. >> my answer is, you know, we'll see. like, let's see -- let's see the press conference. let's see the campaign stops. let's seegn all of this because all of it is going to be necessary. >> as the democratic candidate joe biden has my support. >> he just has to step down. he can't win, and my colleagues need to recognize that. >> we're riding with biden. >> joe biden is our nominee. he is not leaving this race. he is in this race, and i support him. >> i have not changed my opinion there are many otherch prominen democrats who could prosecute that casewh better. >> he had a bad debate. former president trump had a horrific presidency. >> are you all on the same page? >> no. they're not even in the same court. >> today new jersey democrat

miky sherrill became the ninth member of congress to call for a different democratic nominee. axios reports that a group of moderate democrats calling for biden to step down is seeing their revolt crumble in what the outlet calls a rapidly disintegrating movement on capitol hill to get biden off the ticket. president biden for his part has remained adamant that he will stay in this race and fight on. as evidence of that, he has a fairly packed schedule with a slew of public appearances. tonight the president gave remarks at the nato summit in washington. that follows an interview with abc news last week and a surprise phone interview on our very own msnbc this week. this thursday president biden will hold a press conference with reporters. and then on friday he will travel to one of the most important swing states in this election, the statest of michig.

now, for several election cycles michigan has been the center of the political b universe, but after the debate there was a new reason to focus on the state. the young, charismatic, relatively popular two-term governor gretchen whitmer. in recent weeks you may have heard her name as part of speculation about who might lead or join a theoretical post-biden democratic ticket, but governor whitmer has said she is 100% behind the president's decision to stay in this race and that she will continue in her role as a cochair of his re-election campaign, something that is not --ai that is not going to b unhelpful, which is to say it could be very helpful indeed to president biden in a key battleground state. remember, in the final years of the trump presidency governor gretchen whitmer emerged as a sort of hero of the anti-trump coalition. she stared down president trump's threats to with hold key

covid aid as michiganders were drying from the virus, and stared down a plot to kidnap the governor herself. and all of that in her book. governor whitmer, thank you for being here. you picked a doozy of a week to have your book come out, and we're going to getom to all of that in a moment, but i do want to ask you about the state of democratic politics right now. "the new york times" editorial board has been fairly unstinting in their calls to have president biden step out of the race. the figure they attach the most weight to is this polling number, the latest polling showing 74% of voters believe that joe biden is too old to serve. that is an increase of 5 percentage points since the debate. what does that number mean to you? >> well, i think it's n importa to recognize the debate did not go well, right?

i think we all understand that. what we've seen from this president since then, though, is an aggressive calender. we sat with them days after the debate, got the chance to see him. i spoke with him last saturday with all of the cochairs of the campaign. i mean he is in it, and he is going to fight like hell to make sure that we continue the work that he has begun in this first term. i've got confidence in s him, a i'm continuing to support him. i know it rattled a lot of people. people saw that, and it shook them, their worst concerns about having two very older candidates running for this important office. and yet he has been right on all the h issues. he's coming to michigan at the end of this weekend and i'm proud to be supporting the president, but he's going to prove to people he's up to the moment. three quarters of the american public think he's too old, he's

not going to get younger. isn't that something he can outrun? is that a perception he can shift between now and november you think? >> the only way you can shift is by showing what he's capable of. you've got to flood the zone, show people you're up to meeting this moment. and man, he is getting a lot done. he's got theis receipts, and i think it's such a stark contrast. i'm feeling pretty, you know, solid about where we are, but obviously there's a lot of work to do. >> i know you feel solid. there's some reporting in axios today that a group of vulnerable swing statehouse democrats had a meeting this morning, and the meeting was characterized as despondent with actual tears -- not tears for joe biden but tears about the fact he was staying in the race. democrats think they are next on the chopping block in november.k what is your message to them as they try and grapple with the prospect of the president staying in race and think that will decide their fortunes and not for good?

>> well, the only one who's going to make the decision about staying in the race is the president. we've got a lot of work to do, but we are capable of meeting this moment, there's no question in my mind. people are concerned about the cost of everything, so we've got to remind them everything joe biden and kamala harris have done have put more money back in their pockets, whether it's limiting the cost of insulin, rebuilding supply chains. it's happened because of joe biden's leadership. those are good paying jobs. that's what's at stake here, a woman's right to make her own decisions about her body and her aka, all of this is at stake. so continuing to talk about what may or may not happen is all based on one person's decision. he's made his decision, so let's go. >> so basically stop your wining, dry your tears, and move on. >> i'm not criticizing those who are concerned.

i get it, but i also know our success in november is dependent on all of us doing the hard work that we need to do, and that's what i'm going to stay focused on. >> can i ask you this question because there's been some back and forth on this quote. you told s the campaign chair after the debate michigan was no longer winnable for joe biden. now, that has been attributed to someone close to a potential 2028 whitmer rival for the democratic presidential nomination. i think people have theories about who that might be. do you have aig theory and what your reaction to that quote? >> i don't know have a theory. all i can say is i think it's pretty irresponsible for anybody to publish something that is from a staff person, another potential rival down the road four years from now, tributing something that happened in a two-person conversation. general mally called me like she called me like a lot of people after the debate.

elections are always close in the state of michigan. we don't clutch our pearl and get all upset when we're down two points and don't celebrate when we are down two points. i would never say michigan is unwinnable because i think it's untrue. well, in 2016 it was 11. in 2020 it was 150,000. when i won two years ago i won by almost 11 points. you don't win that big a margin without getting a lot of cross over votes, without doing the hardwork, showing up for people, reminding what you've done to help make their lives better, a littles easier. that's what this president has done. that's the work we have to do in front of us, but i'm confident we've got a powerful story to tell, and it's going to resonate with michigan voters, pennsylvania voters, wisconsin voters alike. >> when you talk about the work

that's ahead, i see almost a glimmer in your eye. there's clearly a happy warrior vibe. and i'm not asking you to give the president advice, but what would you like to see from him, in terms of a strategy moving forward beyond talking about the accomplishments of his administration with a very narrow majority. in terms of speaking in term of practicality. how much should he talk about his age? how much should he use humor about his age? what's your assessment about a game plan here? >> when i felt everyone was throwing so much at me, it was very hard to show up as i am, and that's really important to be able to connect with people. joe bide chb cares about people. he's dedicated his life and i

think that's going to be really important. the happy warrior persona is something i've had to work at. it doesn't come naturally to say, all right, this is going to be fun, i love the fight. >> i love the death threats, sure. >> bring it on, let's go. but i think that's really important to show people, yeah, we're not afraid. he is not afraid. he has been doing this. he's h dedicated his life to th work, and he's going to continue it come hell or high-water, and that's the point. >> do you like the posture in the recent days, which is like only the lord almighty will get me out of here. >> i think it's important for him tore show a little swagger, and yeah, he's got the receipts. what can donald trump say about his time as president? well, we had hundreds of thousands of people die from covid. we had an economy that was -- that was in dire straits. this president, president biden

has got receipts. he can tell people what he's done for them, and i think that's an important part of it. wet show a little swagger doin it. >> you have taken on trump in a way that few other people have, and certainly as a woman you've been one of the most successful vanquishers of trump with the dumbmp nicknames, et cetera. you write in the book i refuse to let the president define me. i took that insult, that woman in michigan, i flipped it and made it my own. that is the secret of dealing with bullies, you take weapon and make it a shield. when you talk about trump and what he's doing and the threat he poses, he's very serious on it. how do you flip that script and make people understand donald trump is not in the best position to preserve democracy in the country? >> she's a very good salesperson. i'll give him a compliment on that front. but his actions does not follow his rhetoric. for instance, you see how he

tried to change a little bit, make a bit softer his platform when it comes to reproductive rights. but you know and i know he's responsible for roe v. wade getting overturned. we know he put three justices on the supreme court who lied to congress, betrayed their oath, and ultimately, you know, the dobbs decision came out because of their word. he took credit for it, and now he's trying to be sauflter on abortion. give me a break. use plain language. people are smart, but they're busy. they're not consuming information like you or i are because they don't have the time. it's no fault of their own. it's because they're trying to get the kids to school, put food on the table, so we've got to help them understand and remember how high thelp stakes are. >> you bring up the rnc platform and the way they're now saying it's a state level issue. this is a change in where the party has been before, and i'm

sensing just in the fact you want to talk about how to talk about abortion, but there is some concern that this republican partyce strategy cane successful, that it will convince especially lower informationin voters republican aren't that crazy on abortion. they believe in states rights, or they'll hear about, you know, the softening of the platform and that that will be effective. how concerned should democrats be that republicans are playing on ignorance and betting that they can win on it? >> well, i think we can't assume everyone understands the high stakes on this particular front or on a variety of fronts for thatri matter. we've got to make it very clear, and we've got to connect the dots for people. there's no way that women will be fighting just for their livet in some of these states if it weren't for donald trump and his appointees of this united states supreme court. we know that the mifepristone case can very much come back to life. we know that a standing or procedural reason for not rendering a judgment on these cases is all that stands between us and a whole new situation in

this w country where we can't access medical abortion or contraception for that matter.fo and guess what? they get rid of contraception, ivf. and stem cell research and cures could be very well outlawed in additionut to a lot of other rights we have that stem from, you know, substantive due process. all of this is at risk, and we cannot lose sight ofsk it. republicans have been really good about saying it's all about the court, it's all about the court. and guess what, they've shown when you control the court, you control americans lives. the next president will have morext appointees, and that's wt we can't help people, you know, lose sight of. >> you know, we're looking down the barrel of a number of years potentially with this court where there is a conservative roll back of decades of progress. and that could extend well into 2028 when president biden presumably will not be running

again. your name has been mentioned this week and prior weeks in the context of 2024, but it's certainly mentioned in the context of 2028, and i do want to bring up -- you write it in your ybook, so is it fair game governor? >> okay, yeah. >>rn you talk about there's a mention when you're talking about owning your mistakes as ak important sort of lesson that you learned. you acknowledged that you made a mistake during covid by violating your own state's covid restrictions during a gathering at a bar, and then you also make sure to point out california governor gavin newsom made a similar mistake, and you drew this contrast in the book. so gavin and i have that in common even though he was dining at a three star michelin restaurant and i was at a diving bar. the apology is the same. is that the difference between you and gavin newsom? >> no, not at all. i love gavin newsom, and think he's doing a great job and appreciate all the work he's doing on behalf of president biden and vice president harris.

i just want to point out we all are human. but he made a mistake, and he owned it, and he did it with dignity and did it the right way. i did as well, and it was a very different circumstance. unfortunately, violated covid restrictions atio a dive bar, b maybe it was more worth it at a dive bar. i was making fun of myself. i think it's important to recognize we're all human beings. we all fall short onmp occasion. the true leaders like gavin newsom own it and apologize for it. and that's exact lewhat he did, and that's what i did as well. i think it's important. our political leaders they are not better than us, and every one of them who lookz down on people, who treats people they don't matter or they themselves are, you know, flawless are full of it, and i think that's why i wanted to share that story, and i wanted to give him a little credit for doing what i think

was thegi honorable thing to don that situation. >>o can i ask you a question because i think it's an important one as you talk about approaching politics with humility and joy and enthusiasm, you're someone who has faced a death threat, a plot to kidnap and kill you. and you note this in the book. you still to this day don't understand why your attempt to keep the people of michigan safe resulted in such a vitriolic, angry reaction. and i wonder if not in the case of, you know, this plot particularly how and why you think the right-wing has gotten so incensed, so dangerously violent at least in its rhetoric around public officials and the notion of, you know, community and our shared experience, and keeping that community safe? what's happened? >> yawn that's what i'm hoping to understand. you know, when i talk about these plotters, i also in the book talk about my favorite thing to do is engage with people. i love -- i'm as comfortable in

a black church as i am in a bowling alley, more so in those places than in a black tie dinner. now with all the rhetoric and the heat and the threats that have happened, i'm not as comfortable. it's sad. but i would like to sit down with one of these plotters and understand. i think ted lasso is one of the wisest people. he said be curious, not judgmental. i want to understand. i would like to ask what was going on, because it's not a rational thing to take up weapons and threaten to kill a sitting governor because she told you to wear a mask. and what was going on in their lives that i can understand or be a better person or better governor andpe learn? maybe it's nothing. maybe it wouldn't be a good use of time, but i'd like to try. i think that maybe there is something to learn. >> those are hard i conversatio, but it feels they are somewhat overdue at this point, right? >>ov absolutely. >> governor, i'm going to leave iter there. i know that this is a big week for you not just in terms of the book. i'm so sincerely deeply

appreciative of your time and sitting here answering questions i know of the democratic party. the book is out today. it's called "true gretch." and there's mention of tattoos in there. >> and shark week. everyone including trump likes talking about shark week. >> michigan governor gretchen whitmer, thanksve for your time. good luck out there. >> thank you.r coming up, trump's attorneys have a new strategy for the next phase of his january 6th criminal case. will it work? but first donald trump weighs in on biden and the democrats as biden and the democrats try to steer the parte out of the woods. politico's joins me to discuss that up next. politico's joins me to discuss that up next

the radical left democrat party is divided in chaos and having a full-scale break down all because they can't decide which of their candidates is more unfit to be president.

sleepy, crooked joe biden, or laughing kamala. >> donald trump spoke today in florida. signaling after two weeks of semi-silence donald trump is ready to lean back in. president biden, meanwhile, spent the day addressing the world leaders in honor of the 75th anniversary of the nato alliance and hosting the virtual call tonight with democratic mayors as he continues to try and rally support for his re-election bid. joining me now is jonathan martin, senior political columnist for politico. jonathan, in the course of donald trump's rambling and typically semi-unhinged remarks tonight in dural, he did chachg biden to a debate albeit without moderators. i kind of think if you think another debate is in store with these two individuals?

>> i would like another one. he wants to get a second crack at trump. i'm sure he'd like to get that do over. alex, i'm just skeptical trump would agree to a second debate. look, it's donald trump so who the heck knows? maybe he'll do it because he can't resist it camera, but i think his advisers would strenuously, strenuously advocate that he not do that, because in all likelihood he's going to have an advantage this fall in the polls, and why would he give biden the chance to climb back into the race, you know? >> one can never know with the political animal that is donald trump, and that seems to be right. and yet here he is on stage calling -- i do want to ask in terms of the biden of it all. he's making call to mayors, had these meetings with governors, outreach to the congressional black caucus. what do you think of his strategy to circle the wagons right now? it seems to be effective in some parts but not all parts because you also have u.s. democratic

senators whether it's john tester or sherrod brown or michael bennett saying president biden's going to lose. >> i just have been speaking, you know, most of the last, i don't know, three or four days to members of congress and governors who interest trying to figure this out. and the common thread is deep anger, alex, at the president, his family, and folks in the white house. the democratic party is in an untenable position right now. obviously the president does not want to withdraw from the race. he wants to stay in, but democrats worry he's going to lose and lose by a considerable margin, and it's going to damage the rest of the party on the ticket. so here's part of the conundrum is that if you're a democrat in office right now and you put out a statement saying biden should not leave the ticket and he ought to step down, and biden refuses to do that, well guess what? this fall the republican party is going to throw that statement

back at you and say you don't even want the guy in the race. you called for him out three months ago, how can you defend him now? it's a really, really tough spot. i think the biden strategy -- i wrote about it in my column. yesterday is to try to replay the 2020 primary, that the liberal white elite don't like me, but i got the voters, the rank and file working people, black and hispanic folks on my side. i think that's working in some quarters, alex, for him. he's obviously got strong support on capitol hill, folks defending him, and so i think he's trying to ride this out by trying to reprise that strategy of the elite versus the rank and file of the party. here's the complication. what happens the next time he has a bad public outing? what happens also when the next wave of polls coming out showing him losing and losing considerably and hurting other folks on the ticket sphthat's what i'm curious about. >> yeah, to that end he will be

having a press conference on thursday, right? and i sort of wonder what the risk-reward scenario for that is given that his performance in the abc interview, which did not seem to quash concern, but it also didn't exacerbate the concern that already exists, i mean how do you -- what are the expectations on the part of democrats about the strategy to put him out more or even in moments where he's not reading from the teleprompter, where he's speaking in an unscripted fashion. you know when you're driving somewhere and see a gas station or liquor store right before a bridge and says last chance, i think this press conference thursday, alex, is the last chance democrats have. they're going over the privilege, and this is it. if you want to pull over, fill up your tank or buy a bottle of bourbon before you go to a dry state, boy, this is the moment. this press conference on thursday i think if he hits the ball out of the park obviously the pressure will ebb.

but if it doesn't go well, i think he will see one find round of democrats trying to get him out of the race, and you'll see the that some of these senators especially who have been quiet or called for him to step out, i think it's a high stakes moment on thursday because time's awasting. this is the week, and that press conference i think thursday will tell us a lot where democrats go from here. >> jonathan martin, who's taking better highways than i am if there's sign lost stops for liquor. i haven't seen one of those. >> you've got to drive through some dry counties or dry states. >> clearly. john martin, always great to get your wisdom, my friend. >> appreciate it. more tonight including what is behind the discussions including whether vice president kamala harris is or isn't qualified to be at the top of the ticket.

my colleague, simone sanders joins me to discuss that later this hour. but first, donald trump's delay tactics in the numerous criminal trials against him have paid off bigly, but he's not done yet. i'll explain after the break. net i'll explain after the break

last week in a 6-3 decision

along ideological lines the supreme court ruled that donald trump has absolute immunity for official acts he took while in office, but that he can face charges for unofficial conduct. that decision opened the door for u.s. district judge tonia chutkan who is overseeing this case to hold evidentiary hearings or mini trials in the near future and they could feature testimonies from former vice president mike pence to see which charges against trump can survive. today a new guardian report details trump's legal strategy to prevent any of that from coming to pass. trump's lawyers are ready to argue the judge doesn't need to call witnesses to determine whether trump's conduct is immune, that she can just decide that based on legal arguments alone. and even if the judge decides to go ahead with those hearings, trump's defense is planning on using executive privilege to block the testimony of key

witnesses. joining me now to uncap all this is also a senior writer for politico magazine. please help me understand whether this is feasible scenario that judge chutkan doesn't feed to call on witnesses or have a proper hearing. is that possible? >> it should not be possible. if i were trump's lawyers i'd be making the same type of argument. if you read the opinion there's some things quite striking, which is they left fairly open how judge chutkan should approach implementing the standard they created, which is nebulous standard. second throughout the opinion with the exception of the portion of indo indictment that relates to trump's the court emphasizes this needs to be a determination and take one

example in particular pretty striking there's a part of the indictment that concerns trump. and the court says in order to determine whether this is official or unofficial conduct the fact finder may need to learn about other communications around that period, the context of the communications, what else was said surrounding the relevant communications, who was involved in transmitting the communications or organizing the rally. none of that in in the indictment, all of those are facts the supreme court have said may be relevant to the trial. i think it's a really uphill battle for trump to say the supreme court will close even preliminary fact finding because the supreme court on its case contemn plates preliminary fact finding. >> exactly. presumably testimony with white house officials, no? can they claim executive privilege and say mike pence is off the table, bill barr is off the table when the supreme court

is opening the door to ask the judge about conversations with precisely those same people? >> look, i would expect the slow types of roadblocks to be raised. often during the grand jury process there were those decisions that arose and were resolved with the justice department. it would be probably a harder sell to get attorney general barr on the stand at this point given the supreme court's holding about how trump's immune from any prosecution for those interactions with doj, and then the separate unfortunate ruling that the justice department cannot introduce immunized conduct even if the case for the underlying conduct concerns unofficial conduct. so i think a fair reading of the opinion or at least a conservative reading if you're the justice department would suggest maybe bill barr is now off-limits, but of course there are many other people as we learned from the january 6th committee who were telling trump

his election claims were false. >> with when you talk about what's happening with the justice department, do you imagine right now, i'm not asking you to sort of telegraph a situation you don't happen to be in, but would you imagine the special counsel's office is trying to preemptively drag out tis indictment, or do you think they're going to wait and march to the time line whenever it's laid out? >> i'm sure they're discussing that very, very seriously, and i think there's pros and cons. the pro to filing a superseding indictment would be in theory you can sort of wipe the slate, trim the indictment in a way you can comport to the supreme court's holding. the con is that croyou'd be inviting a new round of motions, motions to dismiss, arguably reset the litigation schedule, and also the other thing i would add is it's not totally unprecedented for of the justice

department indictment to be either dismissed in the pretrial stage or for portions of it to be stricken. and the justice department does not need to get a superseding indictment in that situation. iq either redact portions of of indictment if the jury gets a copy, or they cannot present and present the evidence in parameters the court has set. >> there's some options. it's a lot tbd. it's incredibly helpful to get how you think this will all play out. thank you for making the time tonight. >> still ahead tonight kamala harris may be both the most obvious substitute for president biden on the democratic ticket should he choose that path, but she may also be the most controversial. i'm going to talk to my colleague simone sanders townsend about that and why that is coming up next. send about tht is coming up next.

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we always knew this election was going to be tough, and the past few days have been a reminder that running for president of the united states is never easy. but the one thing we know about our president, joe biden, is that he is a fighter. he is a fighter. and he is the first to say when you get knocked down, you get back up. we all know, many of us know

what that is. >> that vice president kamala harris today speaking at a campaign event focusing on native-american, pacific lieneder community. today was vice president harris' sixth visit to the swing state in nevada this year. this visit was under a considerably bigger mike scope and this trip has been because they're openly discussing when president biden should drop out of the race and whether president harris should replace biden at the top of the ticket. harris has repeatedly rejected the idea of the president dropping out or being the one to replace him, but the conversation about whether or not she would be a good choice has continued anyway, and it has already become a conversation all about race. >> it's our turn. if you don't agree, well, you're

racist. you're with kamala or a racist seems to be the theme. >> that president biden selected her simply because of her color and her gender, that's the mess they created. >> today the atlantic ran opop-ed entitled the problem with coronating kamala harris. it reads one common argument for why they should coronate harris in biden's absence would be skipping over her would be racist or perceived as such by black democratic voters. yet black voters have shown time and time again that their interests are practical and that their demands are strategic. give us a candidate who will win, and that -- that is where the intense fixation on kamala harris' race sort of falls apart. >> new cnn pollings giving kamala a lifeline. she's the only candidate that comes within striking distance of trump. trump beats biden 45-42.

>> the question is could kamala harris beat donald trump if the question is a matter of pure electability, will vice president harris according to those polls, looks like the candidate democratic voters like the most as an alternate to president biden. so the idea she would be picked as one fox news host put it simply because of her color, the argument doesn't really add up. i'm going to talk to my colleague simone sanders townsend about what this discourse is really about and what it actually means for november coming up next. d what it actually means for november coming up next.

what kind of country do we want to live in? a country of freedom, compassion, and rule of law, or a country of chaos, fear, and

hate? we have the power to answer this question. our last line of defense is the ballot box. >> vice president kamala harris was in nevada today drawing a sharp contrast between the presidency president in a second term of that and a trump presidency, again the second term of that. the spotlight was fixed on vice president kamala harris herself as some call on her to replace president biden at the top of the democratic ticket. joining me now is simone sanders townsend, host of msnbc the weekend, and served as former advisor and chief spokesperson to the former president. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> fox news has said they've made it into a referendum, if you don't support kamala harris you're a racist. that ignores the fact in polling right now if there had had to be a replacement harris is polling the best, but it also fundamentally misunderstands the

motivations of black voters, too. i wonder if you could weigh in on that because a lot of people talk about what black voters want and whether or not kamala harris is their person or not. i wonder both in your experience and the voters you talk to, black voters seem much more pragmatic than identity based. >> black voters are extremely pragmatic. i would argue most black women in america are pragmatic, hence why they show up at the ballot box in various ways as they do. i think we have some clips. we went to bluebell, pennsylvania, the suburbs. and hello, black women live in the suburbs, folks. a lot of people were like why don't you talk to real black women? i'm sorry, real black women live in the suburbs and they vote. we talked about a range of things, one of the things we talked about unprompted was the vice president. and we talked to seven intergenerational women, they all said they liked her. there's some clips. one of the women posed a question. she said how would you all feel

if they skipped over the vice president? and they all said we would be upset. we would not be happy, but democracy is on the line. and i was like at y'all, very happy, practical. first of all, skipping over the vice president, she is the vice president. whether they are under anise tisha. fund ament elthat is what they are in fact there for. the president selected her because he believed in the event he would not be president, she would be the president. at the end of the day joe biden is at the top of the ticket. it's the biden-harris ticket. and i believe that's what it's going to be in nchb. >> that's what she's insisting it is. i do think the conversation around here awakens a lot of

preconceived notions and feelings and bigotries around women of color. i've got to read this quote from "the wall street journal," which is talking about the vice president. this is from the editorial board. unnamed writer. various democrats are popping up in the press noting that much of the party's base would revolt. the suggestion that the party base thinks the first woman of color on a national ticket has a birthright to move up to the job as opposed to the party choosing a candidate more likely to win. do you hear the dog whistle there? the birthright of a woman of color who believes she has a birthright? >> the audacity of the vice president -- the adacity of the supporters of the vice president of the united states of america to believe that she should be first in line to the presidency? the audacity. this black lady i mean oh, my goodness people want to -- i hope people hear my sarcasm as home. alex, honestly, this is fundal

misunderstanding of two thing. it is not the elected party leaders that pick their representatives. the people pick the representative, and so it is -- the process is not that the people -- the elected leadership, the small group should be picking who the democratic nominee is, first and foremost. the people picked, and they picked joe biden. people can have qualms about the primary process, we can't say the primaries weren't had and ballots weren't cast. secondly, there's a fundamental misunderstanding i think of base voters, of black voters. i was at essence this weekend, and we talked to black women. we got lots of this sound of black women, a man on street sound and they brought up the issue of health care, apportion, talked about the economy. the chief concerns for black women in this country are economic concerns, and they want a candidate who's going to speak to those concerns, and they want

the next president to do something about their economic concerns and health concern. for folks who are members of the democratic party and pledged their support to joe biden, i have not heard many black women voters say that they are walking away from him, so i didn't think, alex, that's why we haven't seen more members of congress come out because they've actually heard from some of the constituents. >> they're not going anywhere, and that's why biden is talking to the congressional black caucus. >> as he should, largest caucus. i do think the sbc should ask her something. all this support what is joe biden going to do for them? >> from your mouth to the cbc's ears. thank you for joining me tonight. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. you said that biden thinks he's the best candidate, but do you think he's the best candidate? >> yes. at this point he's the best candidate.