it is good to be back with you on this second hour of "chris jansing reports." at this hour, the eyes of the

world on president biden at a nato summit. can the next two days help silence his doubters and slow the calls for him to exit the race? teasing the ticket. donald trump plays up speculation around his republican running mate with a top contender, senator marco rubio, right there at the rally. plus, hot misery in houston. texans still enduring a triple-digit heat index after hurricane beryl blew out power for more than a million people. when will it end? and phoning home, to earth. an update on those boeing "starliner" astronauts whose mission was supposed to end weeks ago. what they had to say from space talking to our own costello. our nbc news reporters are following all of latest developments. let's begin with nbc's monica alba at the white house, where president biden is facing new challenges, but also new opportunities as he fights for support. so monica, is the campaign feeling the pressure of these critical couple of days?

what are we seeing? >> they certainly are feeling the pressure, chris. but they are maintaining that what the president said in that letter to democrats earlier this the week is his plan and that he is not straying from it. that he's committed to staying in this race, despite now what you're hearing from certain lawmakers, from certain major celebrities like george clooney, who really penned a scathing op-ed from "the new york times" today. but thep's campaign is saying, look, that is not shifting his thinking on that, that the president has totally dug in, that he's defiant. that this is something that he sort of signaled in an interview earlier this week on msnbc, where he likes to call out what he calls the elites for being wrong about him, even though, of course, he enjoyed the support of the so-called elites to get him to this point where he is, as the democratic nominee, but he is pledging that he's going to stay that way, despite what others may think. for today, chris, though, he is focused on the world stage, on

foreign policy, which he is hosting during the course of this nato summit here in washington. and he really is trying to put this into the terms of what a donald trump term in office would mean, if he's the one to win in november. what it would mean for our allies and what it would mean globally and geopolitically. here's a little bit of what he had to say at an earlier nato session today. >> today, we're stronger than we've ever been. since i took office, we've doubled the number of battle groups in nato's eastern flank, the united states has. finland and sweden have joined the alliance, and the number of allies spending at least 2% on defense has gone from 9 to 23. that's not happened by chance, but boy choice. >> and the president, of course, trying to talk about what he is hoping people will take away from this, but we know, chris, that tomorrow will be the main event, with that solo news

conference that's meant to wrap this multi-day summit with nato, where the president will face really tough questions about his path forward, about his health, potentially, and about whether he really does still firmly believe that he's the only person who can beat donald trump in november, as he tried to stress and convince people of this week. >> monica alba, thank you. now to celebration surrounding donald trump's vp pick, after comments at his florida rally. nbc's dasha burns is covering the trump campaign. so what did he have to say? i know there have been a little tease, certainly had put it out there, maybe he could announce it last night. he didn't. tell us what's happening. >> reporter: yeah, more than a little teasing, chris. this really is starting to feel like an episode or maybe even a whole season of "the apprentice." trump really leaning into that reality show competition host role, as he's been just increasing and ratcheting up the suspense here. he sent that fund-raising email last night saying, tune in, i

could announce tonight. multiple times in his speech, he said, tonight, i'm officially announcing, and then of course it was not the vp announcement. florida senator marco rubio, who we know to be in the running for the role was there in attendance. he gave a speech a couple of hours before the former president and throughout his speech, he referenced marco rubio. take a listen to what he said. >> i think they probably think i'm going to be announcing that marco's going to be vice president. i don't know. because that's a lot of press. we had a vicious campaign for a while, and he was tough and he was smart. and i got to really know him well over the years. and he's a fantastic guy. senator marco rubio. >> reporter: you know, chris, it does feel like he's kind of enjoying keeping the media and the country kind of on the edge of its seat here. look, we've got another rally in pennsylvania on saturday that could be another moment. he has said, though, that he really does want to announce at the convention, but there are some limitations there.

yeah, we're looking at basically anytime between now and wednesday, when we know, whoever that vp is, is going to be speaking that evening at the convention. so we have a limited window here, where it could happen. and i will say that what's happening on the other side of the aisle does seem to have sort of increased the holding pattern that we're in here, as the trump campaign has sort of sat back and been watching what's going on with president biden and the democrats, and holding off on jumping into the news cycle, chris. >> dasha burns, thank you. let's go to houston now, where frustration is building as crews struggle to get the power back on. nbc's jay gray is there for us. the lieutenant governor said earlier that hospitals are actually getting overwhelmed, because they can't send people who are sick back to their houses that don't have air-conditioning. give us the update. >> reporter: no, chris, it's really become a mess that many of the people we talk to in this area say the aftermath has been much worse than beryl, the storm. i want to give you a look at

where we are right now. we're inside a cooling center and several have been set up across the houston area to help with families who don't have electricity, who need a place to get an internet connection, to get power to charge their devices, to get out of the oppressive heat that they're dealing with here right now. and it's bad. it's going to be in the mid-90s today, but with the humidity, it's going to feel like 108, 110 in this area. this is what's going on inside. and it's especially important for a lot of the families with small children or the elderly who need a place to just find some spot where they don't have to sweat. and it's being about as blunt as you can. they need to get out of this heat and get some refreshment. but this won't last all night. this will close down around 6:00, 7:00, and they'll be back at home. one man told me last night at midnight, that he was still seeing 90-plus-degree temperatures inside his home and he couldn't sleep in all of that. so it's been an issue that so many are dealing with.

more than a million still without power. no real indication "a," of why, or when it will be back on. we pressed center point, the energy company here on all of that. they said they're working as quickly as possible and tried to get everything restored, but they do also acknowledge that it's going to be days perhaps for some of those without power right now. >> what a nightmare. jay gray, thank you for the update. so two astronauts who should have been back on earth weeks ago say they're still feeling confident, despite mechanical issues that have kept them in orbit. nbc's tom costello is the only tv reporter who got to ask the astronauts a question. okay, tom. nasa has made it clear that these astronauts are not stuck, but what are they? >> it's day 35 for the astronauts, and they thought they would be up there for ten days. so clearly, this has been an extended time away from home, much more than they anticipated. and they said that their homes in houston, the astronauts' homes have also been damaged by

the hurricane. nonetheless, they're on the space station. nasa says they are continuing to troubleshoot the problem with the thrusters, specific the thrusters that would allow that spaceship to maneuver as it undocks from the space station and approach reentry. nasa says it still believes that that ship is safe and the astronauts say they believe that the ship is safe, but they want to do a full diagnostics on what exactly caused the problem with the thrusters. i asked the astronauts about how confident they are in the ship. take a listen. >> understanding and appreciating everything you should about the performance of "starliner," it is still billions of dollars over budget, years behind schedule. it seems it's been snakebit t a every turn. are you confidence in the performance of the ship for future missions as well?

>> that's a fair question. can i tell you that this is the world of test. this is a tough business we're in. human space flight is not easy, in any regime. and there have been multiple issues with every spacecraft that's ever been designed, and that's the nature of what we do. that mantra you've heard, failure is not an option. that's why we are staying here now. >> so there were a lot of us on that call with the astronauts. i'm the lucky tv guy who got to ask a question, but a lot of people asked questions. by the way, nasa mission managers also making the point, they're hoping, hoping that they can bring the astronauts home at the end of july. that's their timeline right now, but they still want to continue testing the thrusters, replicating the problem on the ground in new mexico, because as we've said, chris, when the astronauts come back in their ship, that portion of the ship, the service module, it burns up on reentry. so this is their only chance while in space to do a full diagnostics, and replicate the

problem on the ground, because they're going to be flying "starliner" on future missions as well. >> yeah, and that answer reminding us that it may be a long way since apollo, but you still have to have the right stuff to go into space. tom costello, thank you. in 90 seconds, a major hollywood star and fund-raiser for the democratic party declares, i love joe biden, but we need a new nominee. george clooney's new op-ed calling on the president to step aside to save democracy. calling on the president to step aside to save democracy. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry. -remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer? -was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45? [both] because i said cologuard®! -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider. [both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way

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if joe biden holds all the cards when it comes to staying in the race, what can democrats do? can a turn the focus to trump strategy help tupper the page of this campaign? there is growing suggestions now that the party needs to adopt a more aggressive plan to draw attention to what they see as the dangers of donald trump, who returned to the campaign trail in friendly florida territory last night, sounding cocky as "the miami herald" puts it, and providing the kind of contrast democrats want, because at the same time, president biden was speaking to nato leaders. >> i didn't even know what the hell nato was two months before, but it didn't take me long to figure it out, about two minutes. >> the american people understand what would happen if there was no nato. another war in europe, american troops fighting and dying. >> everybody has a water spout,

where water comes out, they don't have anything for me! >> it was inevitable. again and again, at critical moments, we choose unity over disunion. >> sure, chris christie is not a fat pig. please remember that. he is not a fat pig. >> progress over retreat. >> freempl tyranny, make no mistake, ukraine can and will stop putin. >> i had a very good relationship with putin. we talked about, i was the apple of his eye. >> so, democrats love that contrast, but the challenge for the strategy is that voters know this about donald trump, and he seems to be gaining in the polls anyway. nbc's ali vitali reports from capitol hill. also with us, nbc news chief political analyst, chuck todd, and former democratic congresswoman and msnbc political analyst, donna edwards. ali, i've listened to your reporting about how painful this process has been for the

democratic party and all it playing out largely in public, but do they believe that they can successfully refocus on trump and that's the answer? >> well, it's up to them if they can do it. because right now, the conversation is squarely because democrats are putting it there, on the panic they have within their own party about president biden continuing on as the nominee. and frankly, the question that i've been asking people today, chris, on the senate side of this building and across this building, this larger question is, how much longer can this go on? what we have seen happen at least in the last two days is two more house lawmakers come out and say that they think that joe biden should step down, on the senate side of this building, of course, senator michael bennet came forward last night and said that he told his colleagues behind closed doors that he had concerns about biden's electability. that's not bennett making news by being the first senate democrat to say "step down,"

it's up to democrats to change that conversation. and in terms of how long this conversation lasts, here's hakeem jeffries, the top house democrat. watch. >> you said yesterday that this conversation will go through this week. how much patience do you have for the president to make up his own mind? >> my focus remains on having candid, constructive, and clear-eyed conversations with members of the house democratic caucus. >> now, that has long been jeffrey's posture, as he has assumed the leadership mantle of this democratic caucus. he has really given his members space to vent, space to take their own positions. but at the same time, if you want to turn the focus to just a full-on trump contrast, especially ahead of the rnc, you'll need to have leadership basically say to their members, either say what you need to say or stop talking. we got a little bit of news in the last hour or so, chris, the idea that senate democrats will have a special lunch tomorrow at their campaign headquarters where they're going to speak

with key members of president biden's campaign apparatus, including general o'malley dylan about this current moment. all of this an attempt to turn the page as the true contrast point is next week with donald trump and republicans in the spotlight at the convention. democrats would like to make that contrast, but they're still in this position. >> so, this is the first i'm learning about this, chuck, about this special lunch that the democrats are going to have with, you know, biden campaign folks. but is that who they're going to listen to? is it their constituents who they've been hearing from and certainly did over july 4th, who they're going to listen to? i don't know, george clooney just came out with a really tough op-ed. he's a major fund-raiser for democrats. let me read part of what he wrote. he said, it's devastating to say it, but the joe biden i was with three weeks ago at the fund-raiser was not the joe big f'ing deal of 2010, he wasn't

even the joe biden of 2020. he was the same man we all witnessed at the debate. was it a cold? maybe. but our party leaders need to stop telling us that 51 million people didn't see what we just saw. so who has the power here beyond joe biden? does anybody? >> i think nancy pelosi probably has the most influence here. i think it's worth noting, she's been awfully close over the years to one of joe biden's chief strategists, anita dunn. i find it fascinating that nobody has taken joe biden's answer earlier this week that he's staying in the race as definitive. right? he put out a statement that it's definitive. the campaign says, well, he's already answered this question. speaker pelosi, former speaker pelosi was even reminded of this in the interview this morning with jonathan, and she just simply plowed forward, right, and said, well, the decision is up to him. so i don't know how many

different ways that democratic lawmakers can hint that they want him -- they don't like the decision he's made, they want him to make a different decision. the question is, who could publicly and/or privately have a lot of influence with him? i think the answer is the same person for both questions. and that's nancy pelosi. she has in some ways, look, she's a year older than biden, she handed over power to a younger generation. and more importantly, she can make the case to him, if you do this on your own, you can have more control. look at all of the influence she still has. being able to essentially help anoint her successor. i think that's why she's the most successful spokesperson. and i think that's why she did this morning. if you were team biden and you thought you were -- that had to be really deflating. it was a bit of a twist of knife. a bit like, you're not out of

this yet. we're simply respecting the fact that nato is in town and we don't want to humiliate you while nato is in town, but watch out for thursday night and friday. >> yeah, nato ends tomorrow, right? so that's not a big window of opportunity she's talking about. all right, so you've got mikie sherrill, pat ryan, george clooney in the last 24 hours, those comments from nancy pelosi. is the dam breaking or is this a handful of people in a very large political universe? >> i think it's a leak, not a hemorrhage. look, here are some facts. earlier in the week, the president met with the congressional black caucus. you have not heard one single plaque caucus member from whichever generation come out in opposition to joe biden. that is a key constituency for the president and for the party. we've heard from another key constituency, from labor unions and the president is set to meet

at the afl-cio. and we've heard strong support coming from organized labor. these are important constituencies for the president. he relies on them. he will need them going into an election. and i think, i was on capitol hill earlier today talking with some democrats who really want to this put this bed and get to the business, especially with the republican convention next week, of going after donald trump and find that this is not just a distraction, but that it's actually creating harm in terms of doubling down to win the white house and also the -- keep the senate and get the house. and so i actually see this week is really important. obviously, the press conference, yesterday, the president's statement at nato was really well received. it was strong, it was fierce, it was vigorous. and so, i think the president isn't just buying time, but he's

building the part of the party that he's going to need torrid to go strongly into the november election. >> so, chuck, a biden campaign official is pointing to the positive, that's their job, right. you know, they put out like a dozen statements. they looked at -- they came in just yesterday from democrats on the hill, standing on biden. i want to play for you just a few of them. >> i feel good about the plan going forward. >> you think that democrats can win in november? >> i believe democrats win up and down the ballot. joe biden will be re-elected and we'll take the house. >> i think our best shot is with the people who have a strong record. the biden/harris ticket has that. >> we had a great call with the president. the president was clear, was energized, and was motivated. and it's clear that he's up for the job. i want to be abundantly clear. as i've gone through my district and others, the people of louisiana that i've spoken with particularly in the african-american community stands firmly with joe biden and vice president kamala harris. >> are you confident that

president biden has what it takes to win in november and serve the next four years? >> as i've said before, i'm with joe. >> so we've got these members of the congressional until black caucus, the congressional hispanic caucus. you have leadership with unequivocal support and ten democrats now who are calling for him to drop out of the race, but that still leads, i don't know, 350, 380 people who have either said nothing or are pretty squishy. the clock is sticking, isn't it, chuck? >> well, it is, but every one of those members you just played there. you know what they all have in common? not a one of them has to worry about their own election. they all have an easy time at re-election. find me one person who's on the ballot in '24 who's nervous about their election who is that confident about joe biden. you can't right now. adam schiff said it was a problem in california for him, okay? anybody on the ballot that is at

all a little bit wondering about where they are in this is certainly more panicked about this, than those members who don't have their own skin in the game in 2024. so you see a huge divide. but it is to me very notable that not a single -- even their one swing state senator who has stood by him, john fetterman, he's not on the ballot. it's bob casey who's on the ballot this year. so you have, it's a lot easier -- and look, progressives in labor, they've had a lot of influence in this administration and there's, you know, in some ways, assist win/win for them, if their mind-set. there isn't a lot to lose here. in fact, there might be more to lose from them if they don't rally around them. but those democrats who are actually in competitive races, not a one of them is comfortable with biden leading this ticket, because at the end of the day, even if you believe this is an election about donald trump, you've got to have a spokesperson to make the case.

he couldn't do it on debate night. he asked for the debate. he said, watch me. he failed. he had one job. and i think that's the democrats i'm talking to, that's what they're panicked about. they don't have a spokesperson to talk about abortion. they don't have a spokesperson to explain biden's record. and that's what he's risking here. no matter all of the bills he signed, his legacy is a failed presidency if he's seceded by donald trump. >> it's going to be one heck of a press conference tomorrow. chuck todd, ali vitali, thank you. congresswoman, please stick around. still to come, opening statements begin in alec baldwin's manslaughter trial. the video that prosecutors say proves that he was reckless with a gun before a deadly on-set shooting. a gun before a deadly t shooting this is a hot flash. but this is a not flash. for moderate to severe vasomotor symptoms due to menopause... ...veozah is the first and only prescription treatment that directly blocks a source of hot flashes

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some dramatic moments as testimony began in alec baldwin's manslaughter trial, with the jury seeing police body cam footage from the moments right after the deadly shooting on the set of his movie, "rust." we do want to warn you, this footage is graphic. it includes the frantic attempts to help cinematographer halyna hutchins and director joel souza after baldwin's prop gun went off. hutchins would not survive. the jury also heard the dramatic 911 call that a crew member made from the scene. >> santa fe fire and ems, what's the location of the emergency? >> bonanza creek ranch. two people accidentally shot on

a movie set by a prop gun. we need help immediately. okay. this [ bleep ] ad that yelled at me at lunch kept asking about revisions, this [ bleep ]. he's supposed to check the gun. he's responsible for what happened. >> nbc's dana griffin is following all of this for us. also with me, former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, barbaracquade. what's the latest from court, dana? >> we've heard from the first witness, the former santa fe county sheriff deputy, who was the first to arrive on scene. we saw his body camera footage showing those frantic moments as he entered that church, and you can see medics tending to halyna hutchins and joel sousa. a helicopter arrives to take her to a hospital, but it never leaves the ground, because she's not stable enough. the prosecution hoped with saying that alec baldwin played make-believe with a real gun and violated the cardinal rule of gun safety. they say that witnesses will

testify that baldwin had his finger either on or around the trigger and that the fbi firearms examiner will testify that there was no defects or modifications to that weapon, therefore someone had to pull the trigger in order for it to fire. the prosecution also says that the main problem is that baldwin didn't to a safety check with the inexperienced armorer, hanna gutierrez reid. she was found guilty earlier this year for bringing live rounds on that set and loading that weapon with a live round. the defense, on the other hand, says that this was an unspeakable tragedy, but that alec baldwin commit no crime, he was acting. that bullets should never have been on a movie set, and that he did not intentionally pull the trigger of the gun, it just went off. and even if he intentionally pulled that trigger, it doesn't make him guilty of homicide, since he did not know that it was loaded. and a key point, that 911 call,

that was the first time we heard at least in court, because we didn't hear it during hannah's trial, that script supervisor pretty much point the blame at the first assistant director, dave halls, who took a plea deal for admitting fault to not checking that weapon. that could be crucial in the defense's case. >> thank you for that. barbara, this does seem to me, and you're the lawyer here, to be at the heart of this. is it alec baldwin's responsibility for the gun, whether or not it's loaded, whether or not there's live ammunition in it. could it be other people who already either have been convicted or pled guilty. tell us your take on that part of this case? >> yes, i imagine two of the big factors in this case will be mens rea, the mental state of alec baldwin and caucausation. who's actually at fault? even though we've already got convictions from the armorer and the safety coordinator for failing to do their jobs, that does not absolve alec baldwin

from responsibility, because as long as his conduct was a substantial factor in the death, that could be enough. so there are industry protocols that prohibit actors from point ing guns directly at other people for fear of this exact situation coming to pass. the mens rea issue that is his intent, you know, there's no -- no need to prove that he intended to harm anybody, and certainly, i don't think there'll be any evidence of that. but the manslaughter statute in new mexico simply requires that someone cause the death of another through an act, without taking due care. and so, again, the pointing of the gun at the cinematographer could be enough to amount to that failure to take due care. i imagine other facts in the case will matter as well. in particular the fact that alec baldwin was not just an actor on the set, but also the producer, responsible for the safety of everybody on scene. >> so let me ask you about the graphic footage that we just saw. and obviously, it is dramatic, it has dramatic affect, but does

it have value for the prosecution beyond that? >> i don't think so. you know, the prosecution is entitled to present what's known as the rest justae of the crime, that is kind of the whole picture. and i think for people to understand what happened and the chaos and other kind of things, it's important for them to see all of this. but it really doesn't come down to these two issues, which, of course, are not captured there. the mens rea of alec baldwin, his intent, and failure to take due care and this causation psh. i imagine though would be the factors we focus on throughout the duration of the trial. >> barbara mcquade and dana griffin, thank you both as we continue to follow this trial. now we have an msnbc exclusive and it comes to us from tom llamas. we're hearing for the first time from the survivor of a baltimore bridge collapse. llamas spoke with a crew member working on the francis scott key bridge when a cargo ship lost power and crashed into a pillar,

killing six of his colleagues. hear him detail how he made it out alive. >> do you remember what was going through your head as you're falling into the water? you thought you were going to die? did you pray, did you scream? >> you can catch the full interview on "top story with tom llamas" on nbc news now. that's at 7:00 p.m. eastern. coming up, the conundrum for kamala harris. how does she defend the president while also preparing to step up if he steps down? to step up if he steps down? why do some things have to be so complicated? we don't know either stanley...

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we're just getting this in. the feed's a little bit sometimes out of focus, but the best we can do from capitol hill. you can see ukrainian president zelenskyy with the speaker of the house, mike johnson. critical meeting. you'll remember that it was back in the spring in april when a $95 billion aid package to ukraine and israel and taiwan made its way through with some big help from the speaker. and in spite of opposition from many of the closest followers of

donald trump, donald trump has made it clear that if he is voted back into office, he will cut aid to kyiv. this may well be the last time we see president zelenskyy on capitol hill between now and november. reporters did try to ask questions, speaker johnson said, we're not here to answer questions, so this is what we have from them. some pictures of the two of them, but a very important meeting. and in fact, a series of meetings while president zelenskyy is in washington. meantime, the democratic divide is showing new cracks. in just a few hours, really, as another congressman and a famous fund-raiser have called on joe biden to leave the race. and in a new interview on "morning joe" within house speaker eherta, nancy pelosi, suggested this. >> it's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision, because time is running short. i think it's really important and i would hope everyone would

join in to let him deal with this nato conference. >> is it that lingering uncertainty that's left vice president kamala harris in what's being called a delicate spot, as biden leans heavily on the unwavering support of the congressional black hawks. donna edwards is a former democratic congresswoman and msnbc political analyst. tara setmaier is former communications analyst. so, donna, what do you make of nancy pelosi's comments that democrats should hold off, wait to see how things go this week. does that just extend the uncertainty? she's the one who we just heard say, time is running short? >> well, i mean, look, we do know that the president is going to have the press conference tomorrow. i think it's going to be an important one, where he closes up with nato. he continues to meet with and talk with his allies, which he

has many, on capitol hill. and i think that what it does, which is what we always knew, i believe, that this week was an important one for the president to shore up his support and demonstrate that he's, you know, ready to go, which he has done, and then lead right into the republican convention. and then, i think it's going to be time for democrats to get on message and start going after donald trump and the threat that he poses to the american people, as will be evidenced with what we need as a lot of counterprogramming next week, that's not at this, in the -- during the republican convention. >> we talked about it last hour, tara, the majority of members of congress have been on old, either saying nothing or being kind of squishy or down the middle in their comments. but one democratic state party chair, who thinks that biden should step aside told nbc news, i wish i was more brave.

i would be crucified by them if i spoke out line. another democratic house member said, people are very frustrated that the president appears defensive and in denial. he's like the grandpa who refuses to give up the car keys, even though it's not safe for him to drive anymore. are democrats creating a problem by not coming closer at least to some kind of majority stand here? >> yes. the self-immolation is not helping the situation. the president of the united states has demonstrated thus far, except for the debate, that he is capable of running this country. our country is not in chaos. as a matter of fact, we are the number one economy in the world. we're the number one energy producers. he has not embarrassed us on the international stage the way donald trump did when he was president. the president of the united states is representing our country with honor and dignity at the nato summit right now. it is incredibly irresponsible and selfish of some of these democrats who can't seem to

handle a little bit of adversity going on right now to do this while president biden is representing our country at the 75th anniversary of nato. this is an incredibly important time. and this is real. the stakes are real. there's a war raging in europe with ukraine. vladimir putin wants to take over ukraine and create chaos in europe. donald trump seems to be fine with that. as a matter of fact, if everyone was on message, everyone would be talking about the unhinged rally that donald trump had last night where he admitted that he didn't know what nato was before. and putin, well, he could do whatever the hell he wants. and all of the other litany of absolute insanity that comes out of donald trump's mouth every time he's in public. instead, democrats are still going on, complaining about joe biden. >> i don't think any of these democrats are saying, joe biden is great -- i mean, that they don't have any problems on that side. in fact, many of them suggested that if republicans did what in

normal times, what he would have done, got convicted of 39 crimes, they would have abandoned him as the party leader. having said that, when nancy pelosi says, at least hold your fire until after nato, which, by the way, ends tomorrow, do you think she should have done that. should she just say, hold your fire, period? >> what's your overall message? i think that the democrats have had difficulty. this is not the first time. i was a republican for 27 years and we used to take advantage of the fact that democrats department fall in line, they had to fall in love. that was a joke within the republican party. republicans fall in line. at this point, i think it's fair for people to say, let's see what happens after nato. i've said that. give him an opportunity to be the president of the united states and demonstrate that he's got what it takes to continue on. he has said without hesitation that he's still staying in this race, and he has yet to give a reason other than the debate,

right, he has yet to give a reason to believe otherwise. so i think it's okay. nancy pelosi may have inartfully said something, but she made it clear that she supports whatever decision joe biden makes, and so far, he has said he's staying in the race, unless something catastrophic happens. so i think that people need to really realize what is at stake here and by continuing to publicly do this is only help donald trump. because the impracticalties by president biden stepping down and the fantasy that democrats are going to unify at the convention and everyone is going to come out smelling like roses and raise billions of dollars i think is really politically risky. that's what democrats need to think about. >> there is uncertainty, right? you've been reporting on the

delicate position that puts vice president kamala harris in. tell us about your reporting. >> sweechb the vice president do right now is, as a democrat operative said to me earlier this week, i think, really sums up. there is no playbook for this. this is unprecedented for the vice president to have to be navigating. but what she's been doing since the debate is being the vice president to president joe biden. she's showing it on the road, her loyalty to the president, her loyalty to the administration, her loyalty to the agenda that they've set out. she's largely stayed above the fray of the debate going on on capitol hill. yesterday, she spoke in las vegas for a campaign event targeting aapi voters. she only made a passing reference in defense of the president, which is notable, because we've seen her largely not talk about the debate, largely not talk about that debate that's going on. she's saying, joe biden is our nominee, jo biden is a fighter. he had a bad night at the

debate, we'll keep it moving and talk about the good work this administration has done and the stakes of this election and the threat that former president trump poses to the u.s. democracy. and that's really what we've heard her said again. she's out focused on energizing key parts of the democratic coalition. just a few hours ago, she was talking to her fellow sorority members for the alpha kappa alpha historically black sorority and trying to energize these people and saying, joe biden is the nominee, i'm with him and you should be too. >> thank you all so much. and still ahead, rudy giuliani back in bankruptcy court, facing off with angry creditors. is he about to lose control of all of his finances?

rudy giuliani is treating his bankruptcy case like a joke according to an angry group of creditors, to whom he owes millions of. in a court filing, they auz accused the former mayor of hiding behind the facade of an elderly man to awe void accountability, saying he's playing the delay game. today they are asking a judge to put his money in the hands of an independent third party to force him to pay up. legal correspondent lisa rubin is following this story. he filed for bankruptcy, yet there are questions about his lifestyle. what can you tell us about this? >> there are, as you note, questions not only about his

lifestyle and his spending, but even the disclosures he's making. and they are ruby freeman, the two georgia election workers who won a defamation verdict against rudy giuliani in december prompts him to declare bankruptcy in the first place. there was a turn of events. they want to dismiss the bankruptcy case. they say rudy giuliani is playing fast and loose with process that he's abusing the bankruptcy court and today to everyone's surprise, rudy giuliani agreed. his case should be dismissed. what will that mean if the judge agrees? it will mean they can immediately begin to enforce their judgment. but without the oversight of the bankruptcy court, they will have to do their own investigative work to find out where his assets are, to whom he's made payments, and if there are more assets than they even know about. >> for a lot of people who are not involved in this world, they might say isn't somebody supposed to really be around to check on that kind of thing?

if you owe people money, who is watching out for it? >> theoretically, your attorneys are watching out for it and the court, they have a judgment from a court in d.c. after that jury verdict. >> there's tons and tons of staff. >> they are pro bono lawyers. if anybody is going to play this cat and mouse game successfully with rudy giuliani, i would leave that to the folks at project democracy and the law firm that have been prosecuting this case for quite some time. >> do you think he will lose control of his finances? >> i think he will maintain control of his finances, but lose almost everything that he has as they continue to play this game with him. >> the question is for how long. lisa, thank you. that's going to do it for this hour. join us every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. our coverage will continue with katy tur reports, next. ue with katy tur reports, next serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers.

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. boy, has it been a big day. it's only 3:00 p.m. it seemed like president biden was in a staring contest, and the momentum to step down was fading. but one comment this morning from nancy pelosi, who can still be described as the muscle of the democratic party, threw everything up in the air again. here she is on "morning joe." >> does he have your support to be the head of the democratic ticket? >> as long as the president -- it's up to the president to decide if he's going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. i think overwhelming support of the caucus, it's not for me to say, i'm not the head of the caucus anymore, but he's beloved. he is