good to be with you. i'm katy tur. boy, has it been a big day. it's only 3:00 p.m. it seemed like president biden was in a staring contest, and the momentum to step down was fading. but one comment this morning from nancy pelosi, who can still be described as the muscle of the democratic party, threw everything up in the air again. here she is on "morning joe." >> does he have your support to be the head of the democratic ticket? >> as long as the president -- it's up to the president to decide if he's going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. i think overwhelming support of the caucus, it's not for me to say, i'm not the head of the caucus anymore, but he's beloved. he is respected.

people want him to make that decision. >> he has said he's made the decision. he said firm hily this week he's going to run. do you want him to run? >> i want him to do whatever he decides to do. that's the way it is. >> she's no longer the head of the democratic caucus,but she's still a very important and significant voice in that caucus. as my colleague jonathan lemire said, president biden has already made a decision. he's he said he's running. i'm in it to win it. he said it over and over again, which is why that answer from pelosi, who is known for being very deliberate with what she says, is getting so much attention. what did she actually mean? how could it be anything other than a message that he needs to make a different decision? then within a couple hours after that, george clooney raised his hand dropping an op-ed in "the

new york times" arguing for a new nominee, writing, i love joe biden as a senator, as a vice president, as a president, i consider him a friend, and i believe in him. i believe in his character, i believe in his morals and the last four years he's won many of the battle thes he's faced, but the one bat thal he cannot win is the battle against time. none of us can. that was that. then around noon another serious defection. this one from representative pat ryan, a frontline democrat from new york, and a tough battle to keep his seat and along with it chances for the democrats to win back the majority. he wrote, quote, for the good of the country, for my kids, i'm asking joe biden to step aside in the upcoming election and deliver on the promise to be a bridge to a new generation of leaders. the question now is, the one that's in front of all of us, is

today a turning point? joining us now is capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. and punchbowl news cofounder jake sherman. so ryan, let's start with nancy pelosi. she's no longer the head of the caucus, but she's still the muscle of the democratic party. what has her comment done to the halls of congress today? >> i think it kicked a hornets nest. it depends how you want to interpret what nancy pelosi said, but there's no doubt there are quite a few members of the democratic caucus on the senate and the house side that viewed her less than affirmative comments about the president's reelection bid as a slight opening of the door to begin the process of talking about replacing him as nominee. i know that the former speaker attempted to try to clean up those remarks that she made on "morning joe." the statement that she put out was the same thing she said in the interview.

there was a simple answer to that question. the question was do you support joe biden as the nominee. the simple answer was yes. she purposefully chose not to give that answer, which indicates there's a level of concern that still exists up and down the democratic caucus in a way that's preventing them from all coming together and getting behind joe biden as the nominee. that's continuing to fester. it's not boiling down in any way, shape, or form. and there are many of these democratic members who are waiting to see what happens in this press conference on thursday, but there's no guarantee there's going to be a declarative moment in this press conference that makes everyone feel comfortable about what the next step is in this process. meanwhile, the president continues to twist in the wind in his future as the nominee. >> it's a question of whether anything he does in these interviews really can make a

difference because the narrative around him has been so firmly set. americans have had this thought that he's too old for this office for more than a year now. they have been telling pollsters this is not a fiction of the media. this is what americans have been saying to pollsters even before the subject of his age was a big topic of conversation in the news as it has been for the past few weeks. you want to seize on something that nancy pelosi said. she's going to wait to see how this week goes. is it possible that she's just waiting for the nato meeting to conclude because of all the high stakes that are there and not wanting to embarrass him on the world stage or weaken his leadership on the world stage, is she perhaps waiting for this week to conclude before she has her own conversation with president biden? >> she all but said that. she didn't say that directly, but she said she's urging her colleagues to wait until the btd of the week.

share your views with someone privately. there is no privately up here. i can tell you a few thicks. having covered nancy pelosi for 15 years, she never says anything that she doesn't mean to say. she just doesn't. she's an incredibly smart politician, whether you like her policies or not, her views, her strategy, she's an incredibly smart politician. she doesn't say things without purpose. especially in a setting like that. that's number one. number two, every single day, and really frankly every hour we're getting new signs of slippage for joe biden on capitol hill. and i understand that the white house says we're not playing to capitol hill. we want the people to make that determination. i understand if you want to stay in the race, he's well within his rights to do so. you mentioned the list goes on and on.

biden is losing the state of michigan. she's running for the senate. i have had conversations with well more than a dozen very well more than a dozen democrats over the last 12, 14, 16 hours who have said to me, he has no chance. he has no chance of winning. what is he doing? he needs to get out of this race. some of them are not going to say it publicly. by the way, this spans the ideological spectrum from progressive to moderate democrats. so this is just across the board. they believe that he can't win. they believe they are going to lose the senate and the house because of him. and the leadership up here, they are certainly doing a lot to keep their members to listen to their members and reflect those views of the white house. just one more point. the administration is sending up here tomorrow some senior aids

including mike don lint to talk to democrats. one senator unprompted reached out to my colleague and said, i don't care what they say. i want to hear from the president. why are they wasting our time. that's one senator unprompted. so it's fair to say without any hyperbole that this is a complete mess. as we said this morning in the newsletter, of joe biden's making, he's handled the debate poorly and the aftermath he's not handling well in keeping democrats in line. to be honest, i'm not sure he's able to. i think the train has left the proverbial station. >> we talked about pat ryan. he's in a destruct here in new york. it's one of those swing districts. if he loses his seat, the democrats will have a harder time trying to retake the majority. they are close and have good signs of being able to take it back in the house. they have also generally been polling better than president biden has, but still it is

precarious. when pat ryan comes out, that's a pretty big sign there might be a problem on the margins. but on the subject of what he talked about that president biden said he would be a bridge when he was candidate biden in 2020. we talk about that a lot. i want to play that moment so that everyone is reminded of the context. >> look, i view myself as a bridge not as anything else. there's an entire generation of leaders you saw stand behind me. they are the future of this country. >> there was reporting from politico back in 2019 that multiple biden cap campaign aids talked about how he was just going to be a one-term president. he was always going to be a one-term president. he was not going to do this for more than -- he was going to bring a new generation in. thank you so much for starting us off. we have big news here. monday lester holt sits down with president biden in an exclusive one-on-one interview. you can watch a preview on

"nbc nightly news." then the full uned etted interview in a prime time special at 9:00 p.m. eastern on nbc and msnbc and tobs of clips. coming up, biden was losing -- i'm sorry, this is now. biden was losing predebate. now he's losing by a bit more. that's the take away from the cook political report latest analysis of polling. and according to the latest numbers, comparing standings before and after his debate performance, arizona, georgia and nevada shifted from toss-up to lean republican. minnesota, new hampshire and nebraska second district have shifted from likely democrat to lean democrat. remember, nebraska has two electoral votes and they split them. joining us now cornell belcher. so not a ton of movement, but

movement enough in the wrong direction, especially when this election is going to be so close. are you concerned? >> let me ask you this. if democrats aren't fighting and supporting joe biden, why should voters? so i'm actually surprised that it's still sufficient a toss up in so many places. over the last two or three weeks, we have done more damage to joe biden than the debate did. and more damage to joe biden than any of the republican attacks on joe biden has done over the last couple of years. at some point, you hear from voters all the time democrats don't fight for what they believe in and they think republicans will fight harder. i think we're showing the world that that is true, that we're reenforcing that narrative. why should any voter want to stand and fight and have faith

in joe biden if, in fact, so many of his own party are fighting and saying they don't have faith in joe biden. it's suicidal. >> i wonder if you want to flip that on ids its head. is that the democrats saying, no, we are fighting for what we believe in and that's another candidate. fighting for joe biden when you don't believe in him, wouldn't that be more of a opportune thing to do rather than an authentic thing to do? >> see where you're going. joe biden is the nominee. and i hear sort of he's twisting. he's the nominee. unless he steps down from there, he's going to be the nominee. unless he pulls back and says i'm not going to do it. i'm going to lose my delegates. he's the nominee. he has the delegates and they are not going anywhere. so so it does become a sick

larceny firing squad because he's been clear he's not going anywhere. so what good is this continuous fight to bring him down. i'm not surprised his polling numbers are slipping. why should voters believe in him if democrats don't. >> the polling numbers, are you going to blame it on democrats saying they don't believe in him? they are coming out -- allow me if you can to read a little bit more from george clooney's op-ed. he says the joe biden he met with a few weeks ago at the big fundraiser was not the big deal joe biden of 2010. and not even the joe biden of 2020. but what i thought was really interesting is the point he makes here. it goes to what you were saying. he argues it's disingenuous to argue they have spoke with the vote and the nomination is settled and done when we just received new upsetting information. we all think republicans should abandon their nominee now that he's been convicted of 34

felonies. that's new and upsetting information as well. top democrats and other hands who face losing in november need to ask this president to voluntarily step aside. so he's saying that the idea that he's the nominee and we have to deal with it, he doesn't agree with that. >> i love george clooney as an actor, but the deegates of the dnc are joe biden's delegates. there is delegates. unless the he releases those, he's the nominee. it's not me maing it up. that's how it works. and he says he'sletting those delegates go. we need to do what republican republican dots all the time and do well. that's stop fighting each other and rally around the candidate that we have, though not perfect. rally around the candidate we have because on his worst day,

on his worst day, he's better for america, better for working americans than donald trump is. from what i can see, it's not like the country is in turmoil. he's run a really good government. it's been a clean government. it's been an ethical government. no major corruptions. he's kept the alliances together. he's built an economy back from covid. he has been a good president. i'm sorry that he's old. but he's been a good president. we should support him. >> everyone is saying he's been a good president. before i let you go, i know you have your own polling. can you run through when you're saying from that for us if you don't? >> this is where my point comes from. we did polling of african-americans in battleground states. and it started before and after the debate. what we see in the polling is

among african-americans in the battleground states, those that watched the debate were not less likely to vote for joe biden. but one of thoet that did not watch and heard about it afterwards, they were less likely to say they were going to support biden. i'm making a strategic point. and the strategic point is that we are doing damage to our nominee in a way that republicans have not been able to do damage to our nominee. >> thank you very much for coming on. i appreciate it. >> thank you. still ahead, is it a crisis of their own making. what the white house has done to more doubt about president biden's fitness comes in clarifications. and what about the decision making with nato in town. john kirby joins us. he will tell us about his experience with the president. plus donald trump is trying

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coordinator john kirby. here is that conversation. >> it's really good to have you. thank you for being here. it's a pivotal day in washington with nato in town. walk me through what's happening. >> right now, the north atlantic council is meeting in a full session. the president is there at that session. had some opening comments. this is really the set piece event for the summit, where all the nato allies gather around a table and each get a chance to talk about the challenges and opportunities before them as individual nations. more critically as nato allies. >> nato has the threat of russia at its doorstep. what's the feeling about the ability of the alliance to stick together for not just the next few months, but potentially the next few years? >> i have been involved with nato for the last 35 years, and i can can honestly tell you i have never seen the nato

alliance more unified, more determined or more strong than it is right now. as you rightly said, we have added the 32nd ally. swede joins officially this week. it's a bigger alliance. and it's an alliance that's very much keenly watching what's going on on the european continent. with putin is doing in ukraine, these two new members, these are modern militaries that we know how to work with very well. they are going to bring real capability to alliance deterrence and defense. >> president biden has gotten a lot of credit for making this alliance stronger, especially in the face of russia and the war in ukraine. at the same time, we have been hearing from people in the national security realm that nato allies are worried about president biden. i had ian bremer on yesterday, and he said, every world leader attending nato that he met with does not think joe biden can serve another four years. they are deeply concerned, is

what he says, that president biden is going to lose to donald trump. you're on the national security council. you speak for them. tell us how the allies have reacted to this moment with president biden. >> all i can do is tell you the conversations we have been having in the run up to the senate and over the last 36 hours as the summit kicked off. and it's about what you and i have been talking about. it's about nato's relevance going forward, making sure we have strong defense bases across the alliance. making sure we continue to stand up to putin. making sure we are all still supporting ukraine. the focus of our conversations is around the strength of the alliance. and the importance of american leadership in the alliance and around the world. and these allies have been making it clear. they are grateful for what president biden has done to strengthen nato and they look

forward to continuing to work with the united states going forward for that end. >> there's also a lot of reporting they are really worried about a potential for a second donald trump term. why are they worried about donald trump? >> i got to be careful here because i don't want to violate the hatch act. i'm not allowed to talk about election politics. i would just say what they have seen over the last three and a half years certainly since putin invaded ukraine is how much american leadership matters. think about the coordination of the delivery of weapons and munitions. the united states is leading that coordination effort. the united states is leading the effort of more than 50 nations to provide weapons and equipment for ukraine. the united states has led the world in holding putin accountable from an economics perspective. other nations have joined in and that's great. they look for that kind of

leadership. and they are all looking for continued american leadership not only as we continue to support ukraine, but as we try to make sure that this alliance is best suited to meet the future. right after putin -- >> is there a sense of when the war in ukraine might come to an end or how it might come to ab end? >> we all believe that this war is going to end through some sort of negotiation. it could end today. he's not serious about sitting down and having any kind of negotiation. i can't give you a date certain. i wish i could. but what i can tell you is whenever this ends, it's going to have to end in a way that meets the needs and the aspirations of the ukrainian people. it has president zelenskyy, who has put forth a just peace proposal. and many nations around the world support. we can't allow the war to end

until president zelenskyy is ready to have that negotiation. that's just not where we are right now as ukrainians continue to battle back. for the ground that russians have tried to take in recent weeks. >> you can't violate the hatch act. i'm going to ask a question about the president himself. you have had interactions with him. you're in meetings with him. we have had a lot of people on this show who, pressed deep concern about his fitness, his mental acuity. that does include law makers who have had interactions with him. george clooney just said he's not the man that he was in 2020. what has your experience been with president biden on crucial decision making regarding national security? >> my experience with president biden as commander-in-chief has been with a leader who understands the complexity and the challenges that just as important, i would say maybe even more important, has the

wisdom and experience of so many years in government service. he has relationships with leaders around the world. you're seeing it on display here at the convention center. that really mattered in terms of finding solutions to these problems. when i get to be in the room with him, he asks tough questions. he asked me questions yesterday that i couldn't answer. i had to go do the homework. he understands the complexities of the world we're living in and has the experience and the wisdom that comes with that experience to handle those challenges. >> do you think he can still make hard decisions if he's elected again? i'm not asking you to get into election politic, but if you're going to work with him, what do you think? >> nothing that i have seen in the two and a half yearsive been privileged to work at the white house that the president isn't on top of these issueses and won't be able to remain on top of these issues. >> john kirby, thank you for joining us. i appreciate it. >> you bet. coming up, what project 2025

has to do with the republican the national convention. first, what chuck todd says the biden campaign should know about 2020 that makes 2024 different. t 2020 that makes 2024 different et bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve six digestive symptoms to help you feel better. six digestive symptoms. the power of nature. iberogast.

it is not president biden or the public concerns over his faculties. it's the looming threat of a second donald trump presidency that has some democrats bailing on biden. chuck todd says, hand wringing about biden isn't anti-biden, it's anti-trump. the sooner biden understands how he got to the white house and why there are so many questions now about whether he should be the democratic party's nominee, the sooner the party can figure out how to move forward. joining us now is chief political analyst chuck todd. i think that's a really good point. this worry about biden isn't because people don't like biden or don't want him to be president.

they are worried with him, donald trump has a better chance. so explain why you think the biden team needs to understand 2020. >> i really believe they misinterpreted both 2020 and 2022. to you believe -- obviously biden's message before covid was soul of the nation. that's why he won. but the reality was much different in 2020. we covered this bizarre campaign. we sometimes were anchoring hours together during the 2020 campaign. watching donald trump defeat himself. this many ways, biden didn't have to run a very energy-draining campaign. we saw that trump would complain about it. at the time, he didn't have to. everybody was locked down. so i think they really believe they won because of all of their rhetoric. i think because january 6th, we

never looked back it see what happened, so that was front of mind. so i really think they have this mistaken notion that they won because of democracy, they won because -- look, they won because of covid. and in fact, biden underperformed in polling. it wasn't are a very robust campaign. republicans picked up house seats. i think you misinterpreted it and did it with 2022. he took a victory lap like this was a reflection on his administration, when it was a reaction to dobbs. now that the further away we have looked away, we have seen now how impactful dobbs has been to all sorts of elections since the overturning of roe v. wade. so i think they have misinterpreted it the whole time. and they need to realize that what everybody's anxiety has to do with trump, not him. if he can't make the case against trump, they need to find somebody else who can.

>> there's a lot of fear because people remember how donald trump behaved while in office. the plans that he had for a second term, this schedule f and getting rid of all of the federal government's non-political employees and replacing them with trump loyalists. >> i'm going to be honest. a lot of people ringing their hands about some of those things and not enough about his economic proposals. and not enough about his foreign policy proposals. if donald trump follows through with his ideas and isolationist ideas and withdrawing from nato, he's going to weak america for a generation. he wants to weaken the american dollar, weaken the american economy and weaken america's role on the world. joe biden hasn't been able to make that case. that's the problem democrats have right now. >> there's been reporting that

donald trump's policies, the inflationary effects of his policies, the tariffs, would be absolutely devastating. but i haven't heard that much about that. and the conversation has been consumed by president biden. i have two other questions, but i think i'll start with this one first. cornell belcher was arguing this was the democrats are weakening biden right now. the democrats are sabotaging biden. the democratic party needs to get in line and support the guy because he's the nominee. >> i would be more em pa thet toik that argument if it wasn't joe biden who wanted the early debate and it wasn't joe biden who said, don't worry, i got this. this crisis is because of joe biden. this isn't a creation of donald trump. this was their own decision. the best case scenario is that the race is stuck.

it priced in if what we thought wasn't as widespread known, which was not sure he's up to the job and the other guy is out of his mind. and guess what, that's sort of why the polling hasn't budged a lot. i don't know if i would take comfort in that. there's a lot of people who think that somehow everybody else needs to make the case that biden campaign. but forget any of that. americans do want to know if the person they are electing can serve all four years. that's the real issue. >> i have one more question. do you think that joe biden stays in this race? >> i think the odds are better that he stays than not, but nancy pelosi news this morning was a reminder that the party is not there yet. she alone could be the one that could push him out.

>> chuck todd, thank you so much. appreciate it. with the wisconsin supreme court just decided that could have a major impact on the election. first, donald trump says he knows nothing about project 025 and has no idea who is behind it. there are plenty of links. we'll she you them, in a moment. . we'll she you them, in a moment. in the wayborhood, every delivery is a treat. one pistachio for you, sir. one strawberry poof, please. oh. enjoy it. oh, poofect. bye waybor. something minty? of course, it's a large.

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former president trump is trying to distance himself from project 2025. he heard of it. it's a 900-page transition guide

for how to overhaul and run the executive branch. it includes ways to force the abortion ban, among a lot of other things. it's understandable that donald trump would claim he knows nothing about it given that a nationwide abortion ban is so unpopular, but it's not convincing that he doesn't know about it since many from his own administration are the one who is wrote sections of it including peter navorro. and the think tank behind it, the heritage foundation s one of the sponsors of next week's rnc. joining us now is vaughn hillyard. former president trump knows who the heritage foundation is. he knows who ben carson is. he knows who peter navorro is these are people that served in the administration, and she's spoken about them and the foundation in the past. >> they helped with his 2016 transition. they helped phil out the administration the first go around. he spoke at a dinner in

washington, d.c. that i was at with the heritage foundation in 2017. and i want to let you listen from another dinner of heritage foundation that he attended in 2022 because he was giving a tip of the cap to the very project that they were working on, project 2025, before they ultimately published in 2023. take a listen. >> it was our country is going to hell. the critical job of institutions such as heritage just to lay the groundwork. heritage does such an incredible job. this is a great group. they are going to i lay the groundwork and detail plans for what our movement will do and what your movement will do when the american people give us a colossal mandate to save america. that's coming. >> that's coming. and it did. it came out to be known as project 2025. so i think this is what caught a lot of people associated with project 2025 off guard, is because some of his closest

team, including his own current press secretary, was involved with project 2025 before she joined the campaign. steven miller, you have folks like ben carson. so now donald trump is understanding when you release a 900-page poicy book, there are some parts that will be extrap collate lathe by your opponents and they are going to call attention to those parts. some may not be popular. that's where you saw donald trump now trying to disassociate and distance himself. >> i will also point out because people say and rightly so that former president trump is not the man he used to be. i think that clip illustrates it decently when he was trying to say the word heritage and failing. coming up, what happened when the president met with union leaders today. plus what the wisconsin supreme court just ruled that could have a pretty giant impact on the 2024 presidential contest in that state. and potential thely nationally. t

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wisconsin is preparing for a lot more than just the republican national convention next week. the state supreme court ruled ballot drop boxes are legal. a major win for voting access. joining us now is shaq brewster, who is in milwaukee. they have been banned because of a court case. tell me about what this is going

to mean. >> reporter: the best way to think about it is going back to 2020, where you saw an expansion of drop boxes in the state of wisconsin. more than 500 drop boxes ace cross the state. here in milwaukee, you had election officials saying that the vast majority of people who voted absentee used one of those drop boxes. but then the conservative supreme court put a ban on them and last week you had the new supreme court here in the state with the new liberal majority. now say that these drop boxes are allowed. so what you're seeing across the state, clerks are figuring out exactly how to employ them and how to act with this new ruling. you have political parties making a shift, including the republican party now sounding like they are encouraging their voters to use these drop boxes. listen to a little bit of my conversation with the chair of the wisconsin republican party to see what i mean on that. >> it's the wrong decision, but we're going to watch it closely. in areas where maybe we feel

it's an advantage to us, we're going to look at how we use that. >> you can see yourself encouraging the use of drop boxes. >> i can see a situation we may do, not necessarily republican areas, but we do the same. >> reporter: and this is going to have an impact on several graups here in wisconsin. i spoke to a disabled rights advocate who relies on a wheelchair to get around, who used drop boxes in the past. she told me she was planning to return her mail-in ballot in this past april spring election. she was planning to return it to her polling location in person, but then there was a snowstorm on that day. she ended up not voting. it could have an impact if we have a close race. >> thank you, shaq. we have breaking news on capitol hill. let's go to ali vitali. what do you want?

>> has hakim jeffries has been having -- both about their own reelection battles, and the role that -- they've been venting their concerns, and our understanding now is that hakim jeffries has told them it's his planning to relay those concerns and worries to president biden himself. i asked him about this in in just the last hour, and he basically said they're having conversations as a family, and that's what they have elected to, talk about the role of the party going forward, but jeffries has also been a staunch and consistent supporter of president biden, one of the big calls that -- and, of course, it makes sense, as he's listening and trying to allow members the

space to vent their concerns and frustration he's hearing them, now we know what he's telling them he plans to do with them. >> ali, thank you very much. coming up, what union leaders are saying, while they say they are sickened by his -- how much will that make a difference? don't go anywhere. uch will that make a difference? don't go anywhere. the planet with nuggets. because we need the planet. and we also need nuggets. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat. i used to leak urine when i coughed, laughed or exercised. i couldn't even enjoy playing with my kids. i leaked too. i just assumed it was normal. then we learned about bulkamid.

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how significant is it to have the union leaders say they're with joe? >> incredibly significant. the union leaders that were there are some of the biggest in the country. they went out of the way to be physically present with them. they're obviously in d.c. at this point anyway, and i want to emphasize that one of the groups that was quickest to rally to biden after the debate, to have people stepping up was organized labor. i've been recently at a biden rally in madison, looked at the crowd that was there. a huge portion of the people that turned out were members of unions, especially the building trades unions. they have a long tradition of going out, knocking on doors, getting people to the polls. >> do the rank and file want him to stay in? >> i think rank-and-file unions are like any other group in

america. you will have some union folks that have always been sympathetic to trump. one of the most powerful things is labor's ability to communicate to workers on the job site in the union hall. if their message is a consistent message emphasizing biden's strength, particularly his sympathy with labor, that's hugely important, because it is a counterbalance to what's frankly happening in the media. >> john, you're in wisconsin. we've been talking to a lot of folks about biden's future. we haven't been talking to some located inside the swing states. i want a sense from you. what is the feeling among wisconsinites and biden's presidency? >> i think they're wrestling. everybody is talking about it. it's a big deal.

it's not a side story. it's one that ordinary folks, who aren't all that politically engaged are interested in and discussing. i think it's because it's so human. we've had experiences with family members who are getting older and having challenges, so i want to emphasize, it's an honest, deep conversation, and an awful lot of people i would say are waiting to see the president's next move and the next move after that. it's a testing moment, but it's not where his support has collapsed, but one more -- i had the people in the biden rally in madison, friday, literally came to see how he's doing. yes, he has challenges, but my sense is he has some able to maintain that connection. who narrowly voted for him. >> narrowly is the keep point there. >> yeah. let me read you a bit from

your own write about what joe biden needs to do next. you say he's at an inflection point where the future of american democracy is at stake. this put more than your best effort, it requires an absolutely determined candidate and big bold risk-taking campaign that inspires wisconsinites and voters nationwide to defeat trumpism. is he doing that? >> not yet. this isn't picking on him, it's a simple reality. the president needs to get out into the country, do a lot of big events. not small events with friendly audiences, but big events. he needs to do town halls, all sorts of local media interviews, but those local media interviews in battleground states are incredibly powerful. the fact is he's got to do it.

no one else can do it form the vice president can help, others can, but joe biden has to ramp this campaign up dramatically. if he's to stay in the race, he has to be all in. >> you're talking about free-wheeling settings, not tight events, not prompter, him out there, taking questions, talking to people. >> that's right. people need to do a lot of that. to under estimate, if the biden campaign underestimates that, they'll put them -- >> what happens if he slips up in one of those situations? >> i'm sorry i lost you for a second. >> what if he slips up? >> that's fine. for decades, joe biden has always had, you know, kind of a loose way of speaking and a little slip-up isn't a problem. i think the bigger problem is the sense he's hidden away, he isn't present. >> he's obvious have been said to have foot-in-mouth syndrome.

>> they don't care about that. they care if he comes to see them and if they have fill inter. >> what i mean is he's always known to be a gaff machine. that's part of the appeal he's had. john nichols, i appreciate you joining us. i hope to see you next week when we're in wisconsin. >> i welcome you to wisconsin. lester hole sits down with president biden in an exclusive one-on-one interview. watch a preview on "nightly news", and the full unedited view on -- that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. his there, everyone. 4:00 in the east, to quote beloved staff phone from "saturday night live," this place has everything. a real housewife, a guy who