>> they don't care about that. they care if he comes to see them and if they have fill inter. >> what i mean is he's always known to be a gaff machine. that's part of the appeal he's had. john nichols, i appreciate you joining us. i hope to see you next week when we're in wisconsin. >> i welcome you to wisconsin. lester hole sits down with president biden in an exclusive one-on-one interview. watch a preview on "nightly news", and the full unedited view on -- that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. his there, everyone. 4:00 in the east, to quote beloved staff phone from "saturday night live," this place has everything. a real housewife, a guy who

played herk leases, an ex-secure adviser, ex-president of the united states and who can forget, for one year there were even nuclear secrets stashed away. brand-new reporting from "new york times" swings open the doors to the private club mar-a-lago, fuel by proximity to the ex-president, now presumptive republican presidential nominee. it gives us a glimpse into the ideologues, the conspiracy theorists, the outright crackpots and weirdos that donald trump spends free time with, as he makes a third run for the white house. as "new york times" reports, mar-a-lago is the epicenter. it helps us understand how grave and high the stakes are of november's presidential election. donald trump manages to make the oval office the, quote, seat of criminality, the supreme court

tketa ♪ ji brown jackson has -- dozens of members of congress have made the trip to kiss the ring, including mike johnson. "new york times" also reports, since he left office and increasingly aligned with the fringe, photos of people and events at mar-a-lago reflect the right-wing personalities have become more woven into the tapestry of the club, including, according to the times report, more than two dozen speakers from the reawaken america group, let in parkly -- a filmmaker hayes held premieres, one including promoting the like that the election was stolen,

and i high-level weaponization of the justice system against conservatives. new video from the times reveals the dangerous conspiracy theory-fueled rhetoric heard day in and day out at mar-a-lago. >> a fringe minority who hates this country bringing communism to our shores. >> they have destroyed life and freedom and family. >> radical atheist marksists. >> the radical left lune tickets was -- >> they continue to steal elections. >> we don't have a fair election, then question don't have a country. >> you can get all of that and more at mar-a-lago. over the years, donald trump has reaped the financial rewards for turning his private club into the center of one of two of major political parties as it morphed into a authoritarian movement. times records this, quote, in this gilded echo chairmaners he

enjoys unwavering devotion. record reveals that profit hit a peak in 2017, includes the u.s. government paid for bedrooms, and liquor drunk by trump aides, without losing the -- many of the charity customers began to flee during the trump presidency. mar-a-lago's profits have shot up again, even as the club has been in the headlines for both the role in the new york civil case and one of the several criminal cases against trump. the company he keeps is where we begin today wh some of our favorite reporters and friends. david farenhold is here. also vaughn hillyard, and formers rnc spokesman, host of

"the bulwark" podcast is here. david, what have you found? >> a real wholesale shift. even when trump got elected, it was mainly still aimed at the palm beach society. there were a lot of red cross, salvation army balls, large charity events. most began to leave after 2017, because of what he said. he said there were very fine people on both sides of what happened at charlottesville, so those charity customers started to leave, the profit margin went way down. especially since he's been president, a whole bunch of new groups started to come in, both political campaigns, including his own, but a lot of other sometimes very new maga-aligned groups. nonprofits off political groups that haven't been there, and more than replaced what he lost

when the society customers left. it appears more profitable than in the last 20 years. >> the elephant in the room -- it's a room full of elephants, but a scene of serious felony crimes, where he stole and refused to return classified documents. let me show you what one of the witnesses -- a former -- i believe a former employees of mar alacko had to say about intermingling of the official and the sort of sordid memberships. >> there was a member, anthony pratt, he flew in the night before -- >> australian billionaire. >> he finishes his meeting with the former president, gets in the car, and his chief of staff says, how did the meeting go? pratt, without saying, says he told me and it would be, you know, u.s. military, you know,

classified information of what he told him about russian submarines and u.s. submarines. that's really all i remember hearing, and i went, what? i'm thinking this, i'm in the car, and i'm like, did i just heard that? it wasn't like the meeting went well -- he went straight to the point, he told me that the u.s. subs and with the russian subs, you know, something that would more than likely in my mind be classified. >> he was basically seeking access to trump? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> david, there's an echo in the reporting that's just sort of your hallmark of exquisitely reported and detailed investigative reporting, but you could read it without worries about what mar-a-lago would become in trump became president in november. >> yeah, mar-a-lago, the people that are there, especially the people paying him, it's a

specific brand of republican politics. it's now what would have been described as the right fringe a few years ago, now moving to the mainstream. the positions that january 6th was an inside job, the 2020 election, the pisa-gate that pedophiles are killing children. all of those things, that kind much apocalyptic, often just wrong reality, which trump lives in, encouraging them by taking their business, and showing up at their events, accepting their awards. he's taken the far-right fringe, and helped them move to the center of the party. the center of the party is just physically him. he's given them access to power.

>> vaughn, trump is involved in a bit of a two-step with project 2025, because he sees how polarizing and unpopular of what they're for is. he can read a poll. he sees he has some political wind at his back and knows that project 2025 is a vulnerability. project 2025's leaders are intermingled in this fringe cohort that he is one and the same with now. can you just talk about this move to -- the fringe seems to understate it to the extreme? >> i think this is two way that is donald trump is trying to play this. in a lot of ways, he is not closing the door on anybody like a michael flynn or steve bannon. the door is open, as it has ever been, to some of these right-wing figures, who have made more than questionable statements in the past.

on the other hand, there's suddenly four months in front of an election, there's implication about 13469 policies that some of these individuals have spoken out loud, who have written on paper, that donald trump is now by association become affiliated with. i think the interesting thing about project 2025 specifically, nicolle, i was just going there just this afternoon in old speeches of donald trump. back in 2022, when, you know, maybe folks were not listening to every speech, it was at a heritage foundation dinner down in florida, where donald trump was the keynote speaker. he was talking about the heritage foundation, and this is his exact quote -- this is a great group. they're going to lay the groundwork in detailed plans for exactly what our movement will do, and what your movement will do, when you american people give us a colossal mandate to

save america, and that's coming. that's a tip of the hat what the heritage foundation was putting together, which becomes project 2025, a policy road map here, but four months out from the general reelection, is now understanding that a majority of americans, at least on some of the policies are not keen on some of what is written inside that very policy. >> well, i mean, tim miller, this is where it's too late, right? the goose is cooked. this is who is running the rnc platform policy process, russ vogt, also one of the key author of project 2025. they're one and the same, and trump is, you know, unfortunately not playing for voters beyond his base. talk about the liability that is project 2025 and david's reporting on the sort of crackpots that frequent mar-a-lago.

>> he's trying to walk away from it. i think that's pretty significant reporting. it's something we know, having it out of the horse's mouth that he says these guys will do it blueprint, i think provides more ammo to the democrats and forces trying to stop donald trump. these aren't popular policies. the other reality is we know these two things are linked. a lot of these officials around heritage foundation and other groups, they're the type of people that staff a trump administration. we know that donald trump is not a stickler for details. he won't be the one worrying about who is the deputy undersecretary that is enforcing these rules at hhs, and the department of homeland security, and all these scary policies that the heritage foundation and others are laying out. i do want to add one other layer to this. i think that he gives the other

club at doral, he shouted out from the stage, laura lumer, something he has had his photo -- she was recognized from the stage. she said on her podcast she wasn't a white ethnic state. she has advanced conspiracies that mass shootings are false, and it's important to understand who will be in trump's ear and who will be staffing his administration. so, you know, because trump is trump, right, and has a lot of word salad, i think it's incumbent to listen to the people who are around him. both with project 2025 and the hangers-on like laura lumer, who is around him at the various

florida clubs. >> tim, i think hangers-on is an understatement. >> probably. >> she is so toxic to the kinds of voters, that trump is doing things that make it clear that the people around him think that next week is about a grab for the independent voter, some of whom moved away from him between charlottesville, the insurrection and the conviction, right? so he's shaved off some of the toxic edges so he can stand there and say things i won't take away a woman's right to chools. yes had he will, his code is leave it to the states, and marriage equality laura loomer is look ten train stops beyond right-wing -- >> she tried to run for congress and was rejecteds. that's how extreme these people

are. this is to be acknowledged from the stage for trump -- it wasn't like she was at an event or photo line. she was on stage at doral, complimenting her. she's an unapology jottic white nationalist, an unapologetic conspiracy theoriest and islam ophobe. what we know is these are the type of people that will staff this next administration. to david's reporting, these are the people who will be around him at mar-a-lago and have their voight in his ear. it won't be responsible public servants or experts on subject matter. it will be far-right extremists that have gone much nur that trump has gone, and they'll be implementing the policy and influencing him.

i think -- that critical thing needs to be understood for trump 2.0. >> vaughn, the disorienting element of the trump story is he is successful moving the frame. so where cpac was so gall to people, he's surrounded by something totally different. not ex-government officials, ex-policy makers that were all viewed as extreme and politically toxic, but the new group and characters at mar-a-lago are an entirely different crowd. >> i think that's why there's an entirely different conversation, about who would join the administration, not only at the secretary level, but also at the agency head level in 2025. i think, though, if i may, this is to a certain extent, 2024 is the year that trump is allowed to be donald trump.

i know we've been talking about that for nine years, but ever since november of 2022, his senior adviser, susie wiles, has been running the campaign. there's been very little palace chaos, no turnover of major staff. in large part, i am told by those within and outside of the campaign, the reason for that is because susie wiles has not tried to close the door to anybody in terms of their access to donald trump, much in the way that the door to mar-a-lago is open, even to the likes of nick fuentes that finds his way into mar-a-lago. she's not acting as a gatekeeper. donald trump is his own gatekeeper. so therefore for him, is provided an opportunity to dismantle his republican points through the gop primary process earlier this year, and no he's ahead in polls nationally against joe biden, so for donald

trump, he feels like this is a moment where he's wholly been allowed to be himself, surround himself with people who could be considered extreme right, it's not politically harmed him four months out from this election. >> david, it strikes me we're almost 18 minutes into this conversation, and the idea of profit tiering. just talk about something that was central to your beat during the years of the trump presidency. >> well, we know even while he was president, 4th would do things like go to thinks clubs very much, the secret service has to follow him, and he would charge his own protectors, up to $650 a night for hotel rooms. that was the first time around when he was in theory trying to

stay on the ethical lines to run for reelection. this trump, if reelected would not have to worry about that. the things they said they were going to do and sometimes actually did while he was president, you know, not making new deals with foreign governments, supposedly giving back some of the profits of their foreign business dealings, it doesn't seem like -- in fact, he hasn't promised any of that, so, yes, the next time around, not faced with any need to run for reelection, i don't think he would be as restrained. the trump hotel in d.c. was gone, that was the month convenient place for people who wanted to butter him up, but people would still find a way, and he wouldn't make any effort to turn it away now. >> unbelievable. another installment 744 in the election. thank you all for joining us.

when we come back, the debate over how to make sure none of this ever comes to past, how they stay far, far away from the white house. two prominent democrats, close allying of joe biden speaking out today. we'll tell you about it. plus, another country club, trump dedicated a lot of his rally to new and extended attacks on our vice president, kamala harris, just hours after she warned of the dangerous far-right vision for america, trump and his allying are specifically plotting. the battle between democracy and autocracy playing center stage, as the president hosts world leaders in washington, d.c. today. we'll bring you all of those stories and moyer when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break.

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it's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision, because time is running short. >> he's made the decision. he has said firmly this week, he is going to run. do you want him to run? >> i want him to do whatever he decides to do. that's the way it is. whatever he decides, we go with. that was speaker emeritus pelosi cap tugs the ainge of the party. and. in the 12 days since president joe biden's debate performance, it's clear that everything is on

the line. a very accomplished and successful president is now an embattled presidential candidate. he's vowing to not quit, state in the race. he's told the nation he will determine the fate of the democracy. seemly her comments were a reflection of concerns of the congress. she knows just about more than anyone else. sources say that hakim jeffries planning to relay the caucus's concerns to joe biden. and george clooney, who hosted a fund-raiser in los angeles has gone one step further saying in public, when he says many democrats are saying in private. in an op-ed he wrote in "new york times," the oscar winning actor, who saw joe biden

face-to-face last month, made the sobering case that he should step aside -- the joe biden i was with three weeks ago was not the joe biden of 2010, not even the joe biden of 2020. we were not going to win in november with this president. on top of that, we won't win the house and we're going to lose the senate. clooney closes with a final plea to the president, who he calls a friend, writing this -- quote, joe biden is a hero. he saved democrat did i in 2020. we need him to do it again for 2024. for more matt daoud, and mara gay. >> you and i have had this conversation. i think i've been very

self-reflecting on all of this. i had not publicly said that joe biden needs to step back, and in my view, kamala harris needs to be the nominee, because i wanted to give joe biden the grace and space to make that decision. i thought i had done that. it's almost two weeks, or two weeks today. nothing has improved since that debate, in fact, i could make an argument that things have gotten worse since the debate. i don't think the abc interview with george stephanopoulos helped at all. if you believe in democracy, and if you want to keep the country a from the threat of donald trump, the only realistic path forward to get that done in any real predictable way is for joe

biden to step back. that's where i am. the interesting thing is, that's where most voters are. that's where most of the democratic party is when you talk to their voters, are. the majority of african americans, hispanics, young voters, new voters, all believe there should be a new nominee form. this is not an elite versus the voters. the voters have come to this conclusion. they would like to see it. i would as well. i, like george clooney, i love joe biden. he's done great for the country, but we can't risk or democracy because we believed in joe biden yesterday. we have for understand the political reality. >> margay, let me play another piece of sound, another piece of analysis. this is senator michael bennett.

>> donald trump is on track, i think, to win this election, maybe win by a landslide, with him take the senate and the house. for me it's not a question of polls or politics, it's a moral question about the future of our country. i think it's critically important for us to come to grips with what we face, if together we put this country on the path of electing donald trump again. >> let me also -- i know how difficult this story is for my audience, but i'm not going to shield anyone from the news. this is new polling in wisconsin, from aarp, 2024 election, for voters over the age of 50, joe biden is at 43%, donald trump is at 52%. the senate race, tammy baldwin is running about four points ahead, but she's losing. michael bennett and george

clooney are the first two democrats i have seen to say out loud something democrats -- elected democrats have been saying privately since the days after the debate, and that is that the bottom will fall out of the polls, and that it won't just be the white house that is lost and the political arrests and prosecutions that donald trump has promised will come to pass. we'll covering those, but the notion that democrats could somehow manage trump from congress is ludicrous. they would lose the senate and they would lose i've heard the number 20 other seats in the house. what do you make of this sort of wide gap between the public conversation and the private worry? >> well, you know, it's been a really tough story for all of us. you know, what is really frustrating here is that every day that the president continue

to say take in the rae and that the democratic party conditions to is a day that donald trump is gaining steam. >> i think it's highlighted a bigger problem within the party, just a lack of enthusiasm, the lack of confidence, and the lack of just a willingness to take a risk on somebody who might be more exciting or exciting to the base, at least that is not a way to win an election. i think that, you know, politicians are inherently

cautious. we have seen some people stick their next out, like michael bennet and others. voters want to know, what is the case to one? anyone who cares about democracy, it's not a case to just wait and see. it's not acceptable to do nothing. sit heard from some members of congress privately over the past few days that it looks like joe biden will lose, but maybe we can stem the losses in congress. that's not acceptable to the american public who is committed to democracy. people still want to win this election for democracy. this is about more than joe biden, and while he has been an incredible public servant, you know, that's why the board i'm a member of has said the best public service he can perform in this hour is to step down. that's because this has been

always been about more than joe biden. i hope he can remember that. this is a choice that's up to him ultimately. this has to be about the millions of americans who could lose their rights, and likely will if donald trump is elected. this cannot just be a comeback story about one man and voters know that. the question is, does the president know that? do those around him know that? and voters want to know that the party that is supposedly standing up for democracy seeing the same sense of urgency that they do. they're not feeling that right now. they're hearing it from a few people here and there, but voters are saying to themselves, well, i thought this was existential, as the president has told us. if it's existential, why are we being told to ignore what is in front of our own eyes and white knuckle this until november?

there's an enormous disconnect. >> can i ask a dumb question? i feel like the solution is literally under joe biden's nose. kamala harris has been the most effective voice on the end of choice. kamala harris is a prosecutor. her ability to prosecutor a case against a convicted felon is limb like too clean and too obvious. what am i missing? it's clear that joe biden has a structural problem with the voters, and that 75% of them think he's too old. it feels like vice president harris has to get in front of more voters, but what she's done is hit all the things that people care most about. why isn't that on everybody's lips? either one of you, matt first -- go ahead, mara. >> mara, you want to go first? >> the irony here is that kamala

harris has actually been out to the campaign trail all year. i saw her in las vegas. actually talking about the issues that voters care about. she's drawing larger crowds, women, minorities, young people, exactly the part of the base that the president is struggling with. she has been making a very forceful case. she's become a much better campaigner. she's one of the many talented democrats, by the way, on the national same right now, but there's only one vice president. she's been making an extraordinary case, not just for the biden/harris ticket, but for democracy. there's a lot of talent in and energy in the democratic party. it doesn't seem there's a lot of energy to reelect joe biden. that's an awkward reality. >> we're going to try to make it less awkward, less painful. i appreciate both of you for being real with millennium.

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matt, we may as well just go there. i covered her speech live yesterday. it was electric. i covered her rope line, she was magnetic. i covered her as a senator when she disembowl one bill barr. i can't say too many other people did that. she has chops that don't often guess showcased that she doesn't often get credit for. whatever happens next, the polls tell a very clear story about where the voters on joe biden. i wonder what you think is possible if kamala harris were to take that top spot? >> first, i want to say i appreciate the conversation, i appreciate what mara said. i'm going to say this, and i know you and mara believe this, the coalition that's pro-democracy in our country is

exceedingly diverse, with a lot of different beliefs and a lot of different things. it's a group of people that are conservatives, former republicans, independents, diehard democrats, progressive democrats. we can disagree about what is the best strategic path forward to thwart the autocracy, sail many witch trial administration of donald trump. we want to preserve democracy. we think donald trump is an existential through we can agree on. so questioning did how to get there in this moment in time, with the weakness that joe biden has shown, we can have that disagreement, but everyone's intentions because we fall in a different place in that decision. i wanted to make sure we said that. i think so often it deinvolves

into what helps donald trump, which is a very divisive hate-filled rhetoric, which is where donald trump succeeds. can camera harris, two 24i7x. we need someone who communicates well, and can prosecutor the case against donald trump. why not the former prosecutor harris? she's almost been gifted for this moment to make the case against donald trump. she's as equipped as anybody to make that case. the second part, think about this. joe biden's administration has one of the most successful administration we've had, millions of jobs, rising wages, all the things he's done on infrastructure, all of those things. it has not impacted the public against a candidate who mass 34 felonies, with millions of dollars for sex abuse and lying about it, who pushed and prodded an insurrection at the capitol, who believes in a platform that

wants to get rid of reproductive choice throughout the entire country, not just get rid of roe versus wade. joe biden is still behind. why is that? the only thing standing in the way of that argument is joe biden. what kamala harris gets, she gets the benefits of the biden administration, all the jobs, all of that without the baggage that joe biden has. she gets an opportunity and a runway, because not many voters are completely familiar with her. that's what you want in a campaign. you want the ability to make the argument when voters haven't already made their decision. the problem with joe biden, voters have made their decision. the wiggle room is so far to change that dynamic, it gets very difficult. joe biden had the air waves for himself for the last few months, millions and millions of dollars, it didn't move the needle. why not somebody that's a former

prosecutor, that carries with all the benefits of the administration and none of the baggage that's attached itself to joe biden, to make that argument against donald trump. >> mara, the last word. >> all i can think about this whole vibes election over the past year in which it's been flummoxing watching joe biden's poll numbers, his approval numbers so weak when his presidency has been in many ways success 68. yes, there's inflation, there are other issues, absolutely, but i do start to wonder now if it was his lack of public presence, not just on the campaign trail, but other than the state of union address, which ocourse was wonderful and an achievement, we haven't heard that much from him publicly. so, maybe he hasn't been b8 to make an effective case recently in general. that's what i'm thinking about. i want to agree with matt that, you know, the strongest

candidate would be one who can make that case herself or himself. >> there is so much still possible. i know that people despair, and i know that people fear, and i know that a lot of people are mad at me. i quit twitter this week. the angst is so palpable, but i feel like nancy pelosi did something important and deliberate today. i would like to give her the same space and grace. i think hakim jeffries is trying to lead a caucus that would not like to be in the minority shoot donald trump win. chuck schumer certain wants to grow a majority. george clooney, it's my understanding that joe biden planned some of his travel in that trip around the -- it's a close ally. these are people from inside the house making these calls and saying they will really

difficult trusts. i want to that i can both of you for having this conversation. it's pain vl to antagonize mission member of the pro-democracy coalition. i appreciate you both for having this conversation with me. >> thank you. >> thank you, nicolle. next for us, the trump republican convention is set to commence in just a couple days. efforts to keep many voters as possible from cast irthat ballots have been thwarted there. a pro-democracy decision, we'll go live on that new ruling, next. decision, we'll go live on that new ruling, next

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wisconsin is a state where if your ballot arrives late, it's not counted. different states are different. it's a victory for common sense. there's no good policy reason that we shouldn't have these drop boxes, as long as you have proper safety protocols and chain of custody, these are superior to the mail. >> superior to the mail. just days before it hosts the republican national convention, wisconsin is celebrating a win for voting rights and democracy, after a rule by that state's supreme court's new liberal majority restored most of the more than 500 ballot boxes in the state. at the reverses a decision on a judgment that was placed.

now, republicans in the battleground state who ones praised ballot boxes and quickly turned on them when trump did, find themselves with no choice, but to flip-flop again and embrace the drop box. shaq brewster is out in milwaukee for us. this piece i didn't appreciate before 2020, when trump and the republicans predicated on the lie attacked all forms of voting, but drop boxes are actually the most secure ballots that come because of the chain of custody requirements. explain. >> reporter: right. nicolle, when i talked to election officials that talks about -- they say it's one of the best methods especially for absentee voting. to open the drops box, only election officials can do it. s he in milwaukee they write did down every time it's opened. they put a new bar code on, and

measure and track how many ballots having picked up from the secure ballot boxes. it was a tool that so many people use. you go back to 2020, there were more than 500 ballot boxes across the state of wisconsin. here in milwaukee, the majority of those absentee, mail-in ballots were returned via ballot box or secure drop box. when you court took them away, it took a away a big tool. and now with the court restoring it, you have somewhat of a celebration for many people here in wisconsin. it's a tool now restored for them for this upcoming election. >> it's a fantastic pre-buttal to the republican convention next week. a quick break. we'll be right back. tion next week. a quick break. we'll be right back.

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to help save lives today. a judge may suggest that he may suspend rudy giuliani's bankruptcy efforts. it's a step toward their ability to collect the $148 million they won in their defamation suit against rudy giuliani, the lies he told about them in the aftermath of the 2020 election. the hearing wouldn't be complete without the ex-knocks mayor with

his zoom camera out, but apparently unaware, repeatedly interrupting the attorney representing the two georgia election workers until the judge threatened to cut giuliani's phone line off completely. the judge said he would issue a decision by friday. we'll keep an eye on that for you. up next, president joe biden and the world united front against russian aggression. the next hour of "deadline: white house" is next. n the next hour of "deadline: white house" is next. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri.

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today, nato is more powerful than ever. it's good we're stronger than ever, because this moment in

history calls for collective strength. autocrats want to interrupt -- >> i didn't know what the hell nato was, it took me about two minutes to figure it out. the first thing i figured out, they weren't paying. >> hmm. his again, everybody. it's 5:00 in the east, two drastically different approaches to our global allies. delivered just hours apart from one another, a snapshot of the existential battle between democracy and autocracy playing out. as president biden hosts nato in washington, d.c., not only must he tackles the world's problems, but he must also reassure or closest allies that the u.s. will remain the u.s. and loyal to nato. it wassor nato allying that came to our defense following the

attacks of september 11th, yet the guy that is kumptly the presumptive republican nominee, in his view, nato is a rip-off, something he wants to get out of, that joe biden has stressed repeatedly or alliance with european nations is critical. putin is waging war against ukraine, and he would be even more emboldened. we are already seeing russia trying to meddle in our upcoming presidential election. russia's efforts to influence the u.s. election through information warfare have the aim to undernye mine the democratic party and weaken public confidence in the process. russia's election influence operation which includes social media accounts and encrypted channels are targeting key

voters groups to exploit political -- and erode. mean w450i 2345i9o leaders versus trump-proofing the alliance. "the washington post" reports on those moves, policymakers have moved control of major elements of military aid to ukraine away from u.s. command to the nato umbrella. they appointed a new nato secretary-general, who has a reputation of being especially agile with trump's unpredictable actions they're trying to buffer the military aid from ups and downs of politics. trump's single biggest anger point when it comes to nato. we have the former ambassador to russia, michael mcfall, staff wring for "the atlantic" anne applebaum is

back, and a former security adviser under president obama is here, ben rhodes. i want to start with anne. what are you hearing? >> i think it's important to give some context. the democratic alliance is one of the few bull washes in the world against a growing network of autocracies. russia, china, north korea, belarus, venezuela, all now work together. they share technology. they share surveillance technology. they share the same narratives. they learn from one another, they pick up tactics from one another. they very much see you, means the u.s. and its allying, as their enemy. that's partly because the language we use is very similar to the language their opposition

parties use. the russian opposition or hong kong democrats or women's movement in iran use the language of democracy, freedom, rights, transparency. they see us as the enemy and would like to undermine us. the nato meeting is one of the few occasion when we see not just the nato allies, because there are also others from all over the world, democrats from all over the world are coming together in washington to say, we're going to push back against there and discuss the ways to do it. that's the core message of this meeting. this is the 75th an remembers of nato, the world's most successful alliance, and this is a moment to focus on what it does and does well. >> with that backdrop for sort of our ability to process everything that happens this week, what, in their view, is on the line in america's november

election? >> so, of course, donald trump has made it clear he's not interested in nato. we know that from john bolton and others he was interested at one point in leading nato. he's talked in disparaging way about nato members, but above all, he doesn't seen america's role as the leader of the democratic world, as something that's key to his presidency. he's much more interested in a transactional presidency, maybe he would do deals with china and russia, and of course america's allies see that, they understand it, and they're looking, as you said in your introduction, they're looking for ways to trump-proof the alliance. what can they do for ukraine now. how ked they bake in money, aid and weapons for ukraine, not just for ukraine, but people are beginning to think more broadly, what if the united states is no longer the leader of the 2ke78ic world, who will lead it snow how

will that work? behind of scenes in a lot of nato countries, that's one of the main subjects of discussion. i promise you it's what people are talking about here in washington today. >> anne, last question for you -- i'm sorry to put you on the spot here, but what does the alliance make of what seems like a newly public phase of the bad guys? putin's trip to north korea, all the of the shuttling that orbon seems involved in. >> i think pulen ainvasion of ukraine 2 1/2 years ago was the beginning of that new phase. when he invaded ukraine, it was partly for his imperial reasons, but also because he wanted to show the democratic world that he can do whatever he wants. he can invade another country, can kidnap children, he can commit war crimes, and nobody can stop him.

that was a deliberate challenge to the rest of the world. since then, he's been looking for allies, and he had some lined up in advance. you've seen the north koreans helping him with ammunition, iranians helping him with drones, you've seen the chinese possibly facilitating trade with russia, and helping their defense alliance -- defense companies stay together, and we're beginning to see the emergence of that network that's emboldened by putin's move, also emboldened by the perception of american decline. i think january 6th was a very, very important moment for the world. it was very shock to get people that a former president would assault the white house, he would assault congress, try to change the outcome of an election, that suddenly made people say, wait, this isn't some kind of bastion of

democracy, actually it could be very weak. i think that's part of the explanation. >> ambassador mcfall, that's interesting. he talks about january 6th in that regard. i wonder, just in your view, what role did january 6th play in weakening this country on the world stage? >> it was horrendous, the worst evehement in my lifetime, as somebody who speaks about democracy and human ratings all over the world, it's difficult -- it truly undermined our soft power around the world. secondly, as we have talked about for years now, anne's brilliant lay down, by the way,

of the state of the world today. the enemies list she put together, remember, they're the ones cheering for mr. trump. mr. trump from time to time cheers for them. he cheers for vladimir putin. he fell in lung with kimdown u.n. he told putin to do whatever the hell he wants -- i'm paraphrasing -- to those who don't pay up. the alliance is not paying us to protect them. it's not a protect racket. he seems to not understand that basic fact about the alliance. so, remember, this is a battle between autocrats and democrats, but there are a battle within liberate democratic countries between autocrats and democrats as well in europe, and tragically here in the united states of america. >> the wife of alexi navalny has been arrested. putin's object section with

american politics equals perhaps rivals our -- just give me some insight into your conversations, ambassador, with folks from outside our country. >> well, first, i've been in meetings all day, has yuliaic arrested? >> no, i'm sorry. >> you scared me for a moment. >> i just saw her a few weeks ago. she was at stanford to watch her daughter to graduate. >> i'm sorry. she is safe. >> every meeting i'm at -- i was at the meeting last night with all the nato members, by the way, that was a moving experience, a great video, a history of the nato alliance. i encourage you to get that from the white house and show the people who it is. it's a good good reminder why

we're always better off with allies. it's also a reminder when i hear mr. trump talk about they need to pay up. the american people need to remember the one time that article v was invoked, an attack on one is an attack on all, is when we were attacked. soldiers from nato countries died for us in afghanistan. those are the people that are worried about what's going on in america now. when they hear reply trump talk about the alliance, there's something fundamental he just doesn't get about the value of alliances. now, they are doing the things to trumproof the alliance. i was just in korea and japan two weeks ago, they're doing the same thing, but its a nerve-racking moment for anyone who believes in the strength of that democratic alliance, but also the small-d democrats you

were talking about in iran, in belarus, in russia, in china, they also want a strong democratic leader of the democratic world in the united states, and they're nervous about what might happen in mr. trump comes back into power. >> you know, ben rhodes, it's averagele history, but we used to hail from two political parties that would debate foreign policy. the debate is totally different, what anne and the ambassador is talking about, small-d democracy and autocracy. i do this stirringly, but this is trump's in his own words, disparaging nato. >> nato is obsolete, old, fat, sloppy. i said it's obsolete. we don't really need nato in its current form. it's obsolete -- >> how about the middle east? >> we are spending so much

money. you have countries getting a free ride, countries that benefit from nato much more than we do. i don't say get rid of nato, but adjust it. if they won't do it, bye-bye. that's it. >> fat and sloppy, not exactly. it's lien, mean, saving lives, and it's expanding. i mean, just take me inside the dangers of this alternate reality from trump to his base and to the world's autocrats on nato. >> first, you're right. we used to debate foreign policy, but never debated the basics like whether or not we should remain to its allies, committed to a set of values around the world. foreign policy has become an extension of our domestic politics. now trump's kind of identity

politics's america first message is outright aggression against american allies in his rhetoric, really raises the stakes here. first of all, he's completely wrong with nato. if nato's relevance was ever in doubt, it's been proven in the way that nato has been a mechanism for democracies to come to the support of ukraine without the convening of the alliance, mobilization of resources, vladimir putin could have achieved his objectives in ukraine, tried to replace the government in kyiv and then other allies in eastern europe. the reality also is if you add up the contributions to european allies, it competes what the united states has provided to ukraine. countries are doing their fair share, both in support of ukraine and in support of their own defense. what donald trump is doing, he's in and out just questioning the policy assumption of whether or not the united states will

remain committed to nato, whether it will be committed to ukraine. clearly, i think what is on everybody's mind, is whether or not he'll cut off ukraine if he's elected. whether or not that should gravely endanger the ukrainians. he's questioning what is the united states in the world? who are we aligned with? do we assistant for certain -- or is he heading in the direction of viktor orbon, is he going to realign with that bloc of countries? that's is how much is at stake, whether or not the basic building blocks of the post-world war it should order remains in place, or whether the united states drifts out of bloc, opening the door for autocrats to advance their agenda. that's how high the stakes are in the next few months.

>> do you feel like those are open questions? do you not feel like one of the things he kept was hits letters to kim jong-un. he called vladimir putin very smart. he hosted orbon. >> the first time trump got elected, he didn't know what he was doing. he turned to fairly conventional republicans to fill out his security cabinet. this time around, that's not what he's going to be doing. he's fully aligned with viktor orbon. the only way he could end the war with ukraine is make a deal with putin. you spend a lot of time talking about project 2025, if he wants

to do if elected. the same think applies to the national security apparatus, fundamentally removing the united states from the leadership of the democratic world, and then at a time when we have strong men in place, xi jinping, vladimir putin, mo-- in a rendo modi, by the way -- >> and a donald trump with complete immunity. all right. everyone is sticking around. we'll have that conversation and much more as president joe biden rallies our nato allies. plus, the former prime minister of australia, and what capital cities around the world are thinking and bracing for if america does that, allows a would-be autocrat to become

president. justice clarence thomas could soon be facing scrutiny with his travel and gifts. "deadline: white house" continuing after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continuing after a quick break don't go anywhere. ough like we , there's a treatment that can help: bulkamid and the relief can last for years. we're so glad we got bulkamid. call this number, today. get your bladder back.

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in europe, putin's war against ukraine continues, and putin wants nothing less, nothing less than ukraine's total subjugation, to end ukraine's democracy, to destroy ukraine's culture, and to wipe ukraine off the map.

we know putin won't stop in ukraine. make no mistake, ukraine can and will stop putin. we back with ambassador mcfall, anne and ben. i want to read something you wrote in december -- it's not legal or institutional but psychological. institutional but psychological. that was part of what the president sought to articulate

yesterday. it's been traditionally challenging to put foreign policy in the stakes of an american election on the kitchen table with american voters, but it feels like this year is different. what are your thoughts about how central the direction the country takes, based on the outcome in november is to occupy standing in the world. >> actually, a lot of polls shows that americans support the idea of nato. they want to remain a member of the alliance. there's recent polls from the chicago council show exactly that. i also think that americans like the idea that we're a democracy, we're a force for good in the world, that we have friends that we work together with them, we develop trading alliances. i think most people understand we're part of a big international trading network. we sell things to europe, we buy things from europeans.

we have close relationships all over the world that helps our companies that helps our country. i think people do know that. i think the idea of american becoming a transactional power, one whose president makes friends one day with one dictator and another day with the next, and the primary interest is himself, his family, his cronies, maybe his business friends, enrich them and we week an oligarchy like some of these autocracies are, i don't think americans like that, and i think politicians could do more in naming that fear, do americans want to be part of the world or maintain the values, the leadership of the democratic alliance that we have today? >> yeah. ambassador, americans like become liked by the good guys. i think -- americans also like ukraine.

ukraine and the leadership of president zelenskyy, and the heroic war against invaders is still popular. it's not necessarily front of mind, but its still popular. what are your thoughts about how to keep thinks vital issues in front of the american people over the next 120 days? >> well, i agree with anne. i think in academia here in washington, we always talk about interests, this kind of language about interests all the time, but when i speak, i speak a lot around the country about ukraine, and i speak in places like montana, oklahoma, texas, not just the coasts, and always i applause lines is when i use words like freedom, liberty and democracy, not talking about interests in some abstract way. this is a fight between good

guys and bad guise. the american people understand that. the polls does support that. the last thing i would say, there are certainly groups in america that really care. i was with a bunch of them today, ukrainian americans, about a meeting about sxachbding studies of ukrainian studies here in america, and those communities understand the consequences of this election very, very clearly, and they tend to live in places like wisconsin and michigan. >> ben rhodes, it's even higher now, that you trump es intuit are wildly unpopular with some voters that he needs in his camp. where there's some angst and despair, i think there's a lot of room for hope on the

politics. it is not popular to like kim jong-un and vladimir putin more than volodymyr zelenskyy and the leaders of the european nations. what are your thoughts about bringing that front and center. >> you're exactly right, nicolle. i have done some work on this in multiple election cycles, where part of what you find is the very voters who can be swing voters, people who are from veteran communities, maybe they don't subscribe to democratic positions on -- but they are deeply uncomfortable with donald trump walking away from alliances, trivializing his own relationship with the u.s. military. like the foreign policy of ronald reagan, they like, quite

frankly. there's certainly openings in some community to make this case. what is important is there's a couple ways to connect that to other things that people don't like about donald trump. anne mentioned one of them. he's in it for himself. his approach to foreign policy is about himself and his own interests. it's not about what matters to the country. frankly sometimes that involving enriching himself and his family. there's plenty of ways in which foreign governments tried to create favor with trump by staying at his hotels. his zonal getting $2 billion from the saudis. there's nothing like the foreign government giving $2.5 million to the son-in-law of a president. but also the undemocratic assets of trump at home connect to what he does abroad. he's trying to take away people's rights and freedoms here in the united states.

we saw it acutely with dobbs. we saw it with project 2025. that's his approach to -- and so, i think the challenge politically is to paint this picture. he stands for and cares for himself at home and abroad. he's undermining democracy at home and abroad. this is all of a piece of donald trump. it's a niche issue that's over here, but something fundamentally connected to the threat that trump pose to say this country. >> ambassador michael mccaul and anne applebaum, and ben rhodes, we're grateful for the conversation. the former prime minister of australia will be our guest after a very short break. don't go anywhere. r guest after a very short break don't go anywhere.

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not everyone is waiting for november. americans are waiting for november, europe, middle east, in the pacific, the whole world is looking toward november. and truly speaking, putin awaits november, too, but killing and destroying to get ready -- to be ready for everything, what november might bring. it's america that keeps the freedom for the world.

that's why the world values america. it is american that keeps freedom for the world. volodymyr zelenskyy with an important reminder that the stakes for november's election are not just sky high for every single american, but the entire world. world leaders are embracing in case it happens, in case it happening that a second trump presidency is ushered in, what that would look like, especially with the project 2025 blueprint for a american dictatorship starting on day one, attacking almost every government function. would america continue to be a beacon for freedom throughout the world if there was another trump presidency. joining our conversation former prime minister of australia is malcolm turnbalance, who is back. we've played clips of your profound warnings, and we're very happy to get to talk to you again. >> great to see you again.

>> tell me the state of whatever it is, concern, anxiety, acceptance, the state of play for world leaders. >> well, you have summed it up with your previous guests. you know, america's greater strength is as a beacon of democracy, the light on the hill, and, you know, as lincoln said nearly 200 years ago, the threat to the united states, to american democracy, primarily comes from within. that's why particularly after january 6th, 2021, all of america's friends and allies around the world have been so anxious at the sight of american democracy fraying, and there no longer being this united consensus in support of democracy, as we understand it. liberal democracy and the rule

of law inside your country. see, the truth is, we all have a stake in your elections, but only americans have a say in it. so around the world, we wait with bated breath to see the outcome in november. >> i have always tried to find some hope in this idea that no one is coming to save us, that it's up to you that we, the voters of the last group of people with any agency, there's no special investigator, special prosecutors on american ally that is can save us, but when you look at the polls and the supreme court, it looks like it's stacking up to be a real slog. you have talked about what trump's return to the white house would be. i'm going to ask you to pull the threat even further. you wrote this -- if trump returns to the oval office, his instinct to crush critics and

stack the executive branch with yemen will likely get stronger. he will characterize his domestic critics as political opponents as democrats, and traitors if they are republicans. trump will feel invincible as a roman emperor, but he won't have someone beside him saying, remember, you are mortal. now he's complete immunity, something he sought from his appointees on the supreme court. >> yes, and it really challenges -- that ruling challenges everything we understand about the rule of law, because the whole idea of the rule of law is that it applies to everyone, the government and the governed, everybody is bound by the same law. it sends a terrible message globally, and naturally within the u.s., but sends a terrible message globally, particularly

given mr. trump's very transactional approach to the world. you know, when trump was first elected in 2016, a lot of people -- mostly world leaders, i would say, would assume he would be institutionalized by the office, xi jinping in particular assumed that, we discussed it at the conference in november that year, shortly after the election. with the benefit of hindsight, you would say that was wishful thinking. we now know what donald trump's character, his mission, his agenda is. it is very transactional. he is absolutely focused on america first and a very narrow interpretation of that. he's not committed to alliances, and, you know, as your previous guests were saying, you can have

all the treaties in the world, but the thing that makes them powerful and act as a detender -- we're talking about nato in particular today -- is the certainly belief that if one of notion nato countries is attack, the others, including the united states, will come to their aid. once that's put in doubt, that sends an invitation, a green light, if you like, to a would-be adversary, to putin. so, certainty, consistency, solidity, solidarity, these are the things that allies need to have for each other. whereas donald trump's instinct is to rattle everybody, ton uncertain, you know, to try to wrong foot people. as we have observed -- i've seen this firsthand, he is very comfortable in the company of

dictators. he has a fascination with vladimir putin. i mean, i've seen that close up, but everyone saw that at that press conference in his singi some years ago. so he's fascinated, a great fan of viktor orbon in hungary. he visited him at mar-a-lago, and emerged said, if trump is elected, not one more dollar to ukraine. he must have been given some reason to say that. these are challenging times, foreign leaders and foreign governments are going to have to react to that. that's what everyone is getting ready for. that's why i read that piece in foreign affairs you kindly

quoted from a moment ago. >> one of the things was the military feeling and saying that they would not carry out an illegal act, but the supreme court has ushered in that basically no official act would be illegal anymore. i wonder if that's causing any sort of recalibration among our allies, or if you think it will. >> well, the challenge is -- what the supreme court has said is, is that trump is immune from criminal -- a president would be immune from criminal prosecution for any act conducted in his official capacity. that doesn't mean that the people he instructed to undertake that act, you know, say an assassination, would be immune, but, you know, the

reality is in that chain of command, people who work for the president are trained and inclined to do exactly as they're told. so, yes, it is -- i think that decision is very challenging. i can see why it's challenging to americans. it's baffling to a lot of america's friends. the real problem -- what am bass tore mcfaul and any applebaum we are saying, if american is not seen as committed to democracy -- that is to say, if the american republic is no longer functioning as a democracy in the manner we've all understood it to be, it is -- it can't be that light on the hill. of course, the dictators will say, c'mon, give me a break, you're talking about democracy,

look at what the americans are doing. they're denying the people the right to vote. >> right. >> they're manipulating court decisions or whatever. you get those criticism now, but you get them, you know, at 100 miles an hour in the evict of americans democracy even further, but your people on the right of politics in american in particular say, well, we're not a democracy, we're a republic, whatever that means. >> it's a remarkable perspective. we really appreciate getting to have these conversations with you. we will continue to call you. malcolm turnbull, thank you for joining us at this moment. >> thank you. when we come back, after years ofe quality and financial transgressions by justices of the united states supreme court, democrats in congress have had enough and are taking action.

we'll tell you about it, next. an we'll tell you about it, next.

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democrats in washington have had enough with the years of transgressions by some supreme court justices. alexandria ocasio cortez introduced articles of impeachment against justices thomas and alito, for what she calls the unchecked corruption crisis on the supreme court.

they are demanding a special counsel investigation with repeated thomas' gifts and laughitious trips violated laws. sheldon whitehouse and ron wyden write this to merrick garland. the evidence assemble thus far plainly suggested that justice thomas has committed willively violations, and raises significant questions about whether he and his wealthy benefactors have complied with the federal tax obligations. presented with opportunities to resolve questions, justice thomas has maintained a suspicious silence. gabe roth and former deputy choor chief, christy greenberg.

gabe, this is the kind of action you've been calling for for a long time. your thoughts. >> i have been calling for a special counsel investigation since i think since april 13th of last year when some of the first propublica stories came out. it's clear the judiciary doesn't have the capacity to conduct its own fact finding. just this last week we learned of a judge in alaska that had been sexually harassing his cleerks for weeks, and it too 21 months to push him out, which is pathetic. the idea we'll have something similar in the supreme court, would the idea that we're going to have something similar in the supreme court, though, would frankly be better than what we currently have because there is no one investigating the supreme court other than the fourth estate. there is no inspector general. so, what we have is the department of justice. for better or worse, that's who does the investigation of judges

and justices. we know right now the department of justice in the last few years has been investigating a half a dozen judges on the state level for malfeasance. on the impeachment front, i think it's a little bit putting the cart before the horse in whether or not we're in high crimes and misdemeanors. justice thomas has violated the law buchlt are they high crimes and misdemeanors? i don't know. i'm not there personally. i'd be happy to listen to other arguments. but i think impeachment is a dead letter to begin with. so, starting with a losing argument is not something i personally like to do. i understand the clamoring for action. but overall, to me, i think hoping that the justice department, you know, some of the underlings pressure merrick garland to do something is frankly a better strategy than showing something like impeachment at the wall and hoping it sticks. >> christi, you've worked inside the walls of the department of justice. just take me inside what crimes

would be investigated and what the burden of proof would be, what kind of evidence they'd look for, and whether you think this proceeds. >> so, they're going to be looking at the ethics in government act, which requires government officials to disclose this kind of information, you know, including supreme court justices. they are supposed to report and disclose their gifts and income from outside sources. they're also going to be looking at whether there were tax code violations. some of these gifts, arguably, should have been incumbent, would it have been disclosed. the question is, if it wasn't disclosed in the annual reports, were the gifts disclosed in the tax returns? for those violations, the burden is you really need to look for worthful and knowing violations. but a lot of that i found very compelling in this letter from senators. there was one tidbit there where there was mention of leonard leo making $25,000 consulting

payments to justice thomas' wife's consulting firm. and there was specific mention there that you could not mention mrs. thomas in the payments. when you see things like that, when you see this kind of secrecy, it begs the question, why not? what are you trying to hide? if this is above board and there's no issue with these payments, then why are you trying to not disclose what they are and hide the true purpose? that begs for investigation. will the investigation happen? will there be a special counsel? i'm not convinced there will be. i think looking at this, looking at this appendix to the letter, you're talking about numerous gifts dating back from 2003, decades of gifts, large amounts, lavish gifts. but you also have clarence thomas telling others, i was told this was okay and i didn't need to report gifts from friends. so, will the special counsel be

spoofed before they start and say, i'm not sure we can really meet this burden? i think, at least in my experience, when you're dealing with opening the investigation of high-profile individuals -- and advantaged i've never investigated anyone as high profile as justice thomas. but even in the realm of politics, there's a higher realm to get to just open investigation. and you really have to have some meat on the bones to say we think a crime was committed here. and i'm just not sure they're going get there, in particular given that some of the conduct that's listed there is fairly old. we're talking about 1999, loans, payments from 20 years ago. now, again, there's a good argument that that's a continuing violation and it should be investigated and you don't know unless you investigate. i have a feeling merrick garland will look at this and say, do we really have to have something completely solid, buttoned up, before we investigate? should he?

yes, will he? i don't think so. >> gabe, i think what we're, sort of, dancing around is that no one has been able to figure out what, if anything, can be done to rein in an institution for which norms by and large seemed adequate before the modern era? and i guess my question is, we are post-jobs, post-chevron. we've got a supreme court that is so unpopular, so out of step in its rulings with anything other than anyone in the far fringes of far maga right is excited about. what options are there? >> i think one options that should be explored -- and this is something i've been talking about for years and i think is finally catching on -- is reducing the amount of money they have in the annual budget. the supreme court gets $150 million from taxpayers every year. if you take out 50 to 70 million of that for security, which we're not going to want to touch, and we might need more

security, given there was recently a carjacking across the street from where justice sotomayor lives in d.c. if you take out that money and take out the 3 or $4 million they get under the constitution for their salaries, which can't be diminished during their time in office, you have something like $90 million that the justices get each year with no strings attached. and i think that if we took away members of congress work to take away -- and i work with senator van holland's staff on an amendment last year, which failed unfortunately. but let's bring it up again this year. to take away some of their discretionary funding so they don't have four clerks, each of them writing their draft opinion. so, they don't have well appointed offices and catered lunches and fancy events in their halls. i mean, i think, you know, people in washington a appropriatiaters, they care about power and they care about money. there are disempowering reforms

we can talk about in terms of jurisdiction stripping or limiting their opinions in certain ways or requiring supermajority votes. i think a good place to start is look at their annual appropriations budget. and now is the time do it because it's being discussed right now. i think there's no reason to stop the democrats for putting that proposal forward. >> i just can picture clarence with a little bag lunch that ginni makes him. cost cutting all around. gabe and kristy. thank you very much for joining us. we'll be right back. k you very us we'll be right back. of the many inherited traits you can discover with ancestrydna. see which unique traits you inherited, the places where they started, and the people you share them with. get movin' and try ancestrydna you might learn what makes you legendary, too. it's pods biggest sale of the summer.

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