case, what are we setting up all these campaigns? why do we do all the rallies? why do we do the focus groups? we believe politics it does something and it has an impact. let's do that. >> yeah, i think that is right. sarah, there is the guy that dogs and has brain worms and might be on the ballot, but i don't think that cuts another direction. quickly, do you think there is more upside for harris? >> i do. if nothing else, right now we need -- there needs to be a burst of energy. there needs to be a new narrative. the voters, the people who vote for joe biden, now believing he is much diminished, those people are going to vote for kamala harris, and so it is about searching for that upside. her prosecuting case against trump something joe biden has demonstrated, he is not going to be able to do. >> sarah, jon, thank you, both. jon's new book is out , check it out, have a great night.

that is all in on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. thank you. for the last two weeks, donald trump has been kind of quiet, kind of. the reporting has been that trump is ceding the spotlight and keeping a low profile. last night, donald trump got back up on the microphone. >> a waitress came over, beautiful waitress, and i never like talking about physical -- she's beautiful inside. you never talk about a person's look. never, you can never mention it. the other day i got very angry, some men called chris christie fat, and i said, sir, and that he said he was a pig. i said, sir, chris christie is not a fat pig. please remember that. please take it back.

the guy is looking at me like, no, we have to defend people. you can't call people that. i said it nine times. he is not a fat pig. mike trump veered wildly from topic to topic using his favorite device of, i would never say the thing i'm about to say. to both objective by a service worker, the waitress come and attack an opponent. some of the or cyst language you can still say on television . that moment is a good remember of the character and temperament of donald trump. it is also a reminder of what trump did to the republican party. chris christie used to be considered a rising star. he was a public year republican governor who managed to get re- elected in a blue state. chris christie refused to bend a knee to donald trump and now he is a pariah. trump demands absolute loyalty. dissenters have a choice. be humiliated by trump or one day humiliate themselves.

most of trump's rivals twos -- choose the second option. is most influential apartment was nikki haley. trump called her a birdbrain. he insulted her husband's military service and he made thinly veiled racist comments about her indian heritage. two months ago nikki haley said, she would vote for donald trump. and this week, haley announced she would be turning over her delegates at the republican national convention to donald trump. another act of submission and personal humiliation. trumps second biggest rival was florida governor ron desantis. he referred to him as meatball ron and after rumors began swirling that desantis wore lifts in his shoes, trump decided to compare desantis to a 10-year-old girl walking around in her mother's heels. trumps super pack even released

a 32nd ad of a fake desantis smearing his face and chocolate pudding based on an anonymous anecdote about him eating dessert with his fingers. the ad was called putting fingers. the day ron desantis dropped out of the race, what did he do? he endorsed donald trump. today we learned that governor desantis will be speaking at the republican national convention in yet another act of two donald trump as well as an active personal humiliation. that is the republican party today. a party where people who absolutely loathe their candidate, who have been publicly humiliated and shamed by him must pledge to support that candidate and they do. compare that to america's other major political party, a party that for all of its faults, does not use retribution or cruelty to keep its members from speaking their minds.

where people who respect their candidate can nevertheless voice dissent and do. today was yet another day of big developments in the democratic debate over whether president biden should remain the party's nominee. it began this morning when speaker nancy pelosi declined to say whether or not she personally believes president biden should still be running. >> it's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. we are all encouraging him to make that decision because time is running short. >> he has made the decision and said firmly he is going to run. do you want him to run? >> i want him to do whatever he decides to do, and that's the way it is. whatever he decides, we go with. >> it was not exactly a ringing endorsement. the impact of pelosi's comments, the impact was then amplified by the release of a new opinion editorial, op-ed as

it is known from and democratic donor george clooney. in the new york times, he wrote, we are all so terrified by the prospect of a second trump term that we have opted to ignore every warning sign. as democrats, we collectively hold our breath or turn down the volume whenever we see the present, home respect, walk off air force one or what talk to a microphone to answer a question. is it fair to point out these things? it has to be. this is about age, nothing more. but also, nothing that can be reversed. we are not going to win in november with this president. on top of that, the past 24 hours has been a flood of concern from democratic senators. >> i am deeply concerned about joe biden winning this november . >> i'm concerned. it's going to be a close race. >> i think this race is on a

trajectory that is very worrisome. i think we could lose the whole thing. >> then there was this from the only sitting democratic senator to have ever been on a presidential ticket. >> i have complete confidence that joe biden will do that patriotic thing for the country. he's going to make that decision and he has never disappointed me. he puts the country ahead of himself. >> tonight, vermont senator peter walsh became the first democrat in the senate to publicly call for president biden to step aside. two additional members of the house, pat ryan and earl join nine other democrats in calling for the same. biden must not stay at the top of the ticket. whatever the outcome here, it is clear that these calls are making the biden campaign concerned. political reports also tonight that the biden campaign has been calling pledged delegates to the democratic national convention to make sure they

still support biden and they are discovering cracks in the coalition. it's clear that the democratic party is not united right now. very clear. but what gets lost in all of the dems are in disarray headlines, is that these disagreements are, in a way, a feature and not a bug. they are a sign of a party that has not given up on the small democratic principle of open and respectable debate pick assigned of a party with a very large tent and with lots of ideas and with a whole lot of energy. throughout his presidency, biden has made clear that one of the central challenges we face as a country is proving that democracy can hold its own in a world where authoritarianism is on the rise. and that is also the challenge for the democratic party. right at this very moment. to prove to the country and to the world that a system where

people can respectfully voice their disagreements, is capable of producing the best outcomes for everyone. joining me now are tim miller, writer at large and mark, staff writer at the atlantic. gentlemen, i know you both have big thoughts about what is happening but i want to talk to about this semi-emerging strategy and said the party, and you heard it from tim kaine and nancy pelosi, i will respect whatever decision the president makes, tim. even though in a very clearly worded letter to congressional democrats, the president said, my decision is i'm staying in the race. what do you make of that strategy, and do you think it's going to be effective? >> i'm going to defer to tim kaine and senators that served with joe biden over what the most effective strategy is to

encourage joe biden to do the right thing. and if this is what they think is an appropriate approach, they don't want to embarrass him during nato or they think private in treaties might make more sense, that's possible. i will defer to them. i have never met joe biden. i met him one time and align. i don't know him personally. i will defer to them. what i would encourage, and one thing that has been frustrating to voters, everybody that has been talking about this in the party is, if he is going to stay in the race, which as he says he is, i would hope to encourage him to have a much more aggressive and forward leaning message and strategy towards targeting donald trump. it was just yesterday that we saw the first time the words project 2025, out of the presidents mouth. we have been talking about this since last year.

the amounts of things that donald trump is going to do that is a threat, that is what everybody wants to focus on. it's hard to focus on that right now, and so, i think part of that is because of this uncertainty in this big debate. i agree there is some healthiness in the debate. what is missing here is, as long as joe biden keeps this in limbo, it's hard to focus on that and the campaign isn't focusing on that. and so, i think that it's creating some frustration. >> i do want to talk -- and i'm not suggesting anybody knows what outreach is going to work with joe biden, but i do think everyone in this box can talk about how this moment is unfolding inside the party. it's clear that elected democrats who would like to see him depart the top of the ticket are not going to be aggressive.

but i will say, mark, there are people outside of the elected office who are being very clear about what they think should happen and you are one of those people. this is from your piece in the atlantic today. it is not obvious that president biden has in no way internalized the disaster toward which he is defiantly ambling, or more to the point, toward which he is leading his party and country. he seems fully indifferent to any consideration beyond his own weathered pride and raging ego. can you talk more -- i am sensing frustration and anger on your part mark. i wonder if you can talk more about you -- you are seeing this as a character flaw, not just a person who is quietly deliberating about what the best choice for the country is. >> at this moment i will say this, compared to tim, i have met president biden maybe three or four times in a receiving line. i think before we move on from elected officials, people get caught up in the body count of

how many members of congress, senators have actually formally called for him to step aside. i think these hostage video like endorsements from all these senators and nancy pelosi and other people are extremely damaging. it reminds me of mitch mcconnell after a few weeks after january 6th think i will support the nominee. a real bare minimum, hardly singing endorsement, but also really damning given what we were led to believe, what affection they had for the president. yesterday, what's interesting about this, over the last two weeks, we have been told the next 48 hours will be key and we are now two weeks in and what's kind of happening here, biden never comes out. he had a stephanopoulos interview. that was one week after the debate. will have to wait another week till we get this nato press conference.

you would think that he would be in a matter of days out in front of this, whether to talk about project 2025 or something else. but it does seem like he is being led around by events and it doesn't seem with every passing day, democrats are getting more and more nervous and possibly moving away from him. >> do you think he will not be on a teleprompter? he will be answering questions live? do you think that could be an inflection point in the decision-making in all of this? >> i think it is as far as what this week will bring. it's going to be a nato press conference. other leaders will be there. but, clearly, this will be given over to questions about his age and fitness and he's going to get a lot of curveballs and it's going to be a really dramatic environment and a real challenge to the nimbleness and his ability to think on his feet and defend himself and he's not going to know what's coming.

this is going to be the first real timed test of how he is going to handle this. tomorrow that's the big event of the week to this point. i also think, they are running out of time. trump is going to pick his running mate and that will dominate the week going into the republican convention, at which point this will die and democrats at least for another week or so will be looked into this and frankly, they will waste another week. >> tim, when you talk about the times you wasting aspect, there is no reporting that the coffers have dried up dramatically for the biden campaign since the debate. i believe the quote is, it's already disastrous, as one of the sources close to biden's campaign. the campaign is shut off to the sources. they are on a path to be down by half or much more from large

donors alone. we talk a lot about money in politics, but i wonder, your assessment about how crippling this is to a campaign, that is already --. >> that's not my biggest worry. i don't think the campaign as are what is at stake here in this election. everybody is paying attention to the selection. everybody is talking about it, not just on cable news. everyone is talking about this. this is not a house race where people don't know the candidates. joe biden has been on tv in all of these states running ads while biden had a huge cash advantage in the spring. while trump has not been running ads. it's a done basically nothing for him. he is still behind in the polls. so, to me, i don't think that is the problem here. obviously you would rather have money than not, but the problem here for the biden campaign is

that, they don't have a clear message. they don't have a message that is resonating with people. to mark's point about how he is not out there, he could get a lot more attention than any 30 second tv ad could get him, by going out tomorrow and banging donald trump over the head with a clear and crisp contrast message about why joe biden and why not donald trump? and he didn't do that in the george stephanopoulos interview and he didn't do that in the debates and we haven't really seen it. so i think that is what is missing here, whether joe biden or somebody else, i think there would be a ton of attention for the democrats galvanizing around someone that had a compelling and coherent contrast message against donald trump and there is plenty to work with their. and so, to me, that is a think i would be worried about if i was -- that's what i am worried about, especially if i was on the biden campaign team. >> tim, do you worry in the

interim, in the last two weeks when trump has laid low, and i put that in quotation marks because he was not laying low last night, he is trying to establish himself as a more norm court candidate by softening however sort of perniciously, the republican national platform on guns and abortion and saying, i don't know anything about project 2025. are you worried at all that that works? >> i think it's working right now but it doesn't have to work. again, going back to when people say the debate was just one night. the problem is going into the debate, the biden campaign team and all of us out there saying, trigger trump. it's so easy. troll him. remind people about the real, uncut, crazy conspiratorial trump. and so there is plenty of opportunities. you played some of the clips at the beginning. he has been kind of quiet but he has still been sending crazy things on his social media about the evil susan glasser and he sends insane things every day.

if there was -- i think there is plenty of time, not just next week but even after the democratic convention between the democratic convention to remind people when the lights are on, how insane and extreme these -- this man is if there is a campaign and candidate able to do it. >> a lot of crazy can back into 120 days. tim miller and mark leibovich, thank you for your time tonight. i appreciate it. coming up, kanye's ex- girlfriend, a bulldog, new details on the cast of characters slated to speak at the rnc next week. what it tells us about trump's inner circle if he winds a second term. what is really happening on capitol hill behind the scenes as president biden and his party try to figure out the future? that is coming up. p. upset stomach iberogast indigestion iberogast bloating iberogast thanks to a unique combination of herbs, iberogast helps relieve

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as congressional democrats have family discussions over president biden's political future, house democratic leader hakeem jeffries has told lawmakers that he plans to relay their concerns directly to the president himself. president biden has spoken to a select group of hill lawmakers including the congressional black caucus, which has voiced its support for biden. a similar statement of support from the congressional hispanic caucus reportedly caused tension among members who felt it was released without the groups complete by an. the president has spoken to certain individual lawmakers but as of right now he is not planning to call into a meeting with senate democrats tomorrow afternoon. instead, biden plans to send his campaign chair and senior advisers to speak with the senators instead. joining me is jackie ella maney, investigations reporter for the washington post. thank you for being here. i

think a lot of us who don't cover the hill are kind of confused about the dynamics. one of the reasons we are focused on the hill, if there is an engine for the key biden movement art take biden out movement, it is headquartered among the elected members of this party. i wonder what you think transpired between yesterday, when it seemed like the movement ousted biden had gone quiet, and this morning when nancy pelosi came on the network and suggested that deliberations were not over. >> alex, it has been an emotional roller coaster for these lawmakers since they returned to washington especially in the house as they have been really agonizing over this debacle in the weeks since joe biden's faltering and disastrous debate performance. the stakes couldn't have already been higher and nancy pelosi raise them this morning

with her comments on morning joe. they were subtle but deliberate and very precise and a really significant reframing of a delegate but urgent conversation happening everywhere in the party for democrats. what pelosi really did was, she sort of reframed this conversation. she is an institutionalist at the end of the day, so her making these comments was highly significant, especially as a member of lawmakers who are privately groveling about biden and his unwillingness to hear from members and their concerns firsthand and maybe reconsider his decision. this is someone who they heard from who might now have opened the door for people to have the flexibility to potentially change their minds, especially when it comes to biden's performance on thursday when he is going to have this press conference after nato.

there has been a lot of talk on capitol hill about whether or not he's going to be able to deliver a performance that is going to finally allay a lot of the concerns we are seeing. there is an expectation that he is not going to be able to, and in that case, what is the path forward? there is a feeling that the former speaker is now making the way, paving the way for lawmakers to have an exit ramp. >> to have a sense of that dynamics between the democrats in the house and the senate on this topic? up until a few hours ago when peter welch became the first senator to say biden should not be at the top of the ticket, it had felt like the senate was taking a more deliberative pass on this. but that seems to have flipped with michael bennet and john and peter welch topically calling for biden to step down and there are pockets of support for biden among the congressional black caucus and to some degree among the

congressional house caucus. >> yeah, if there is one commonality between the two chambers, it is that both chambers have been feeling in the absence of robust communication and response, that is satisfying to lawmakers in the house and senate. they have lost even more confidence in biden and the operation around him. they were expecting the full- court press, individual calls, outreach from biden and his team . they haven't seen that. one house ada told me, and i know this has felt similar in the senate, if one of the top leaders called the white house switchboard and try to get through to president biden, they are not sure anyone really could at this point in time. all of these concerns have been compounded in both chambers by the awful polling that lawmakers have seen. i don't think it is a surprise you have seen a handful of new

york lawmakers in the house suddenly tweak their previous statements and change their minds. pat ryan came out and said, and was the eighth or the ninth house lawmaker to call for biden to make a change and give up the top of the ticket. i think this lack of communication is something that both sides are struggling for or with and i think there is also this dynamic that both hakeem jeffries and chuck schumer are dealing with as well, which is, there are still some divisions. there are some members who feel like, yes, joe biden is an imperfect candidate but he has never been impressive, and this is our lot and by coming out publicly and continuing to criticize him, we are just making our electoral chances worse. we will see just how far those people are able to hold their ground within their caucuses. >> jackie, when he call -- talk

about holding their ground, the people we hear most from, it is hedged conversations and statements, the people who appear skeptical of biden staying at the top. i'm struck by the lack of passionate support for this president, given what the white house says is a vast number of voters who still support him. does that surprise you? >> it doesn't. i know we have talked a lot about this public versus private conversation. i will say, overwhelmingly, my colleagues and i have spoken to dozens of lawmakers this week, and even the ones who are upbeat publicly have articulate it concerns and private. there is this resignation, that if joe biden stays at the top, he is facing defeat. as one senior aide told me, we have no path to take back the house in biden stays at the top.

that's why nancy pelosi's comments were so significant, even though they were quite subtle. she lives and dies by the house and at the end of the day her priority is the house. so, she didn't feel the house was -- that democrats were in danger of missing the opportunity to recapture the house. i don't think we would be seeing this commentary and this milquetoast support for biden from her. >> jackie with the washington post, thank you for your great reporting. still ahead, do you remember me love? do you remember clint eastwood's speech to an empty chair? if you thought the last three republican nominating conventions were weird ima just look at who is talking now. that's next.

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don't stay home and november. stand and speak and vote your conscience, vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom and to be faithful to the constitution. >> back in 2016, ted cruz, one of the time time speakers urged republicans to vote for someone other than donald trump the day after he became the official republican nominee. ted cruz was a man without a

party that your pick the 2016 convention was an inflection point for the gop. it was a sign that a new era had begun. >> we do not need a reckless president who believes she is above the law. lock her up. that's right. that's right. lock her up. >> it's the first national party used the jailing of a political opponent as a crowdpleaser. by the time the gop held its next convention, it almost seemed point. day one of the 2020 republican convention revealed the party had gone full maga. a st. louis couple got famous for pointing their guns at racial justice protesters.

>> they are not satisfied with spreading the chaos and violence into archimedes. they want to abolish the suburbs altogether. no matter where you live, your family will not to be safe in the radical democrats america. >> here's how the rest of that week went. >> joe biden is basically the loch ness monster of the swamp. >> this election is a decision between preserving america as we know it, and a laminating everything that we live. >> ladies and gentlemen, leaders and fighters for freedom and liberty and the american dream, the best is yet to come. >> what happens this year? on the 2020 for national convention has to milwaukee? the rnc is still finalizing its list of speakers. the full lineup is set to be announced this week. here's what we know so far. a 62 pound english bulldog named baby dog is expected to take the stage alongside its owner, jim justice, west virginia's governor, and senate candidate.

both arizona senate candidates terry lake and election dire who urged voters to strap on a glock to prepare for the election, and marjorie taylor green, s conspiracy theorist who insists that the january 6 investigation was illegitimate and that some school shooting victims work scripted actors. both of those women have speaking slots. and then there is amber rose, a model and former girlfriend of kanye west who spoke against donald trump's candidacy in 2016 and is now in her maga era. while explaining her current endorsement, she asserted that trump supports the most reasonable compromise on abortion. it's not c.a.t.s. and there are certainly a lot you might read into what kind of party invites these kinds of speakers and what kind of candidate keeps this kind of company. on that front, the new york times published a fascinating

piece uncovering how mar-a-lago has been transformed into the nerve center of the most extreme elements of the maga movement pick one of the reporters on that piece joins me next to discuss just who exactly is flocking to trump the white house in exile. how to translate that leap inside the human heart into something we can see and hold. the fingerprints we leave behind show how determined we are to give the world a piece of ourselves. etsy. [audience laughing]

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next week the republican national convention kicks off with four days of pageantry for donald trump, but the maga festival we are expecting will

be a taste of what goes on down at mar-a-lago on a daily basis and a glimpse of what a second trump white house might look like. a new york times analysis shows mar-a-lago has become a gathering place for some of the most extreme factions of the right wing pick events hosted by ultra right organizations and political fundraisers now dominate mar-a-lago's calendar, and even officially nonpolitical events can feel like rallies. in this gilded echo chamber, mr. trump enjoys unwavering devotion and collects the staggering price of admission. joining me is david, and investigative reporter for the times in his byline is on this amazing and interactive reporting. thanks for joining me. i think a lot of people wonder how the maga world view has come to be crystallized, and it feels like mar-a-lago plays an instrumental role in cementing that trump narrative in his own mind and rallying the maga

troops. who is now populating the halls of mar-a-lago from your reporting? >> it has been a huge shift. as recently as 2017, most of what happened at mar-a-lago was palm beach society balls off, red cross, salvation army, that sort of thing. in 2017, because of what he said about writers in charlottesville, they were very fine people among them, a lot of those clients left. for a while there was a whole and the social calendar but now that has been filled by a whole new set of people and some of them are political campaigns including trump's own, but a lot of them are just nonprofits or other groups that are aligned with his politics. nonprofits started by his administration alumni, mike flynn, people who are taking the conspiracy theories that trump's voters believed in before and are now making them into policymaking and a movement and bringing them to

the forefront of mar-a-lago where physically they are together with the republican mainstream and they start to infuse their public and mainstream. >> when you talk about the conspiracies that are accepted as truth, i mean, we are talking about fringe ideas, including the pizza get theory, which i would love for you to expand upon. and looney tunes ideas that have no basis in reality but inside the walls of mar-a-lago, that is what actually happened. that is fact. is that right? >> frequently people -- this is noticeably talking in a corner -- these are people on the stage speaking to people in mar- a-lago's ballroom. they say this 2020 election was stolen, january 6th is somehow set up by the feds, and as you said, pizza get israel. it's a conspiracy that is a pizzeria in washington were democrats molest children and kill them and eat them and an outlandish false conspiracy theory that in that bubble people say is true.

it's a place where you can deny reality and find a bunch of other people who will deny together with you. >> i think what should bring chills down everyone's spine is, this is not just relegated to that mar-a-lago. donald trump is the presumed nominee. this is a place where his aides together. this is a place where this kind of conspiracy fear mongering is infecting other republicans. do you think, like the trump hotel in washington, d.c., mar- a-lago is representative of the trump project and the people who are in mar-a-lago now talking about pizza gait, how january 6 was an inside job, those of the people you will see at 1600 pennsylvania avenue. do you get the sense that these are the loyalists trump will want to bring with him if he goes back to washington, d.c.? >> i do. that's important to remember as we think about trump in a potential next term. there was a lot of -- in his first term but nothing much

changed. that was true because the people that trump brought with him. he didn't have anybody who was mirroring his ideology. but a lot of people who were just republican mainstream people and a lot of them saw their jobs as keeping trump away from the policymaking and keeping things mainstream. that won't happen again. this will be a very different administration. the people who are around him at mar-a-lago, they are there because that's what they realize he is like. is malleable, distractible and if he gets elected again, they can get him to start making policies. it's important to see who is around him physically and paying him because those will be the people. they will not make that mistake again. they will be there in the white house with trump making policy if he is re-elected. >> is there anybody sounding the alarm inside mar-a-lago? the reality bell ? is anyone ringing it? >> no. the people that were there, there have been some members of old-time members who have left. but that's the reaction. able just go elsewhere.

if you wanted to make a change, mar-a-lago would be a place where no one would listen to. people have selected -- that's a self-selected crowd around people who want trump to see them. i don't think there is anyone within mar-a-lago trying to change the place from the inside. i think they justly. >> for anybody who hasn't seen it, there is video my pictures, it really brings to life a terrifying subculture that could very well be in the white house in 2025. it is essential reporting from the new york times. david, thank you for your time tonight. still to come this evening, we have new polling about what democrats want in their residential candidate and what they are willing to do, and it is a lot to defeat donald trump. that is next. hi

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journal poll last week, 37% of democrats think biden is told her on this year. but according to a national poll, when asked if they would vote for biden anyway to keep trump out of the white house, 75% of democrats who responded said yes. joining me now is a democratic pollster and msnbc political animal -- political analyst. these numbers are so confusing. please help me understand them. does this explain why president biden is reluctant to do anything here, because yes, democrats think he should not be on top of the ticket, but they are overwhelmingly still going to vote for him anyway. >> you are exactly right. the reason for that kind of contradictory numbers that you see in those polls can be answered into words and that is

donald trump. the fact of the matter is, alex, whoever the democratic nominee is, democrats are going to vote for that individual en masse because the only thing that matters is who the republican nominee is and the idea that there are questions about whether it will be joe biden or not is really immaterial because there will be a focusing of the mind once we are past the point of no return. whether that is president biden as the nominee, kamala harris, or someone else. the stakes will become clear that this is an election that is a choice between the american democracy and the continuance of it after 248 years or a conscientious movement into authoritarian dictatorship as donald trump himself has pledged to be on more than one occasion on day one. >> also to your point it could be president biden, it could be vice president harris. it could be any democrat governor unnamed as yet, but the fact of the matter is you are saying the democratic resistance to donald trump, the feeling he poses an existential

threat to democracy is strong enough, is motivating enough that democrats will basically go with whoever is at the top of the ticket. >> there is no doubt about it and the national poll yesterday, to me there was a stark number. maybe the most important one that in my judgment is one that democrats should take hard of. we asked the question, do you think of donald trump is elected to another term, will he and his administration represent a grave threat to american democracy continuing in the united states? 53% of all voters including 22% of republicans answer yes to that question. if the democrats can make this case and make the selection choice a referendum between what biden would represent, or whoever the democratic nominee is, which is continuing the way the country has been the world superpower is a functioning democracy republic or this dictatorship, authoritarian project that we see, the 2025

project and other areas that would commence under trump. that choices the choice that the selection will be ultimately defined around. >> i'm going to ask you a question that i don't know if you know the answer to, so bear with me. you say there are 22% of republicans that find trump distasteful, that are alarmed by donald trump and think he poses a great danger to the republic. do you think that sense of alarm is as powerful as the democratic sense of alarm that republicans will pull the lever for whoever is not donald trump in november? >> look, the question you mentioned earlier, would folks vote for president biden regardless of what happens? if he shows signs of advanced aging and is unable to complete a full term in the future, only 44% said they would do that just to stop donald trump.

that is where you see the other question where 53%, and majority are saying they believe trump is a threat to the democracy. so you do have some folks in the middle. a lot of them are probably not watching this program, candidly. we are the junkies here. i think everyone watching tonight knows the stakes, but those voters maybe not as in tune with the process, they may have concerns about donald trump of course, but at the same time they look at issues around president biden. it's not quite enough for them to necessarily vote against trump when they see the concerns around president biden. >> it is hard to understand aside from the reality of the calendar, it is hard to understand the urgency. whether there is a point at which, whether there is a point of no return for the democratic debate about who should be at the top of the ticket. given the sense of alarm, the distaste for trump, that seems baked in. i wonder if there is a point at which the democratic family conversation you think needs to

end in terms of public support for the party itself. >> that's a great question, alex. it has a clear answer. once the democratic convention is over and we have our nominee is a party, that is when the conversation will come to a complete halt and i anticipate at that point democrats will come together as a democratic family and get behind the nominee. the question however is, being between now and then there is an opportunity. whether it is president biden or someone else, that decision is not defined and that is why i think you have this consensus. if this happened later in the process i think you would see the democratic party completely in lockstep behind president biden. the reason this anxiety exists is because in no circumstances can donald trump be permitted to win the election because of the grave threat he would represent. >> fernand amandi, thank you for helping breakdown some seemingly impenetrable numbers. i appreciate it. that is our show this evening. now it is time