saturday. this e idea they want trump to take credit for stripping abortion access from women across the country, talking abo. they want the conversation on project 2025. they want the conversation on whoever his running mate is because they've tried to show these options are, in democrats' words, extreme. people like jd vance, like others. they might not get the chance to do that. >> so we're still waiting to hear more publicly from senate majority leader schumer. >> yeah. >> you mentioned pelosi is someone the president will listen to. schumer falls into that category, as well. what is the latest as to where he is right now? >> there was reporting last night that schumer came out on the record, and it was rebuffed, he was trying to leave no daylight between his support of biden. he's been tight lipped in how verbose he has been with talking about his support of biden with us. democrats will have a special lunch today. they'll be meeting at the democratic senate campaign committee office with top members of the biden campaign

apparatus. get walked through some polls, walked through some data. all of it, again, meant to be part of the reassuring process. we are now squarely in week two of this, though. there are senators who say they wish all this happened sooner. there are senators who badly want to be reassured. i think that's the thing here. everyone wants to be reassured. they'd like to come down on the point where they can say president biden is the nominee. we're just not there yet. >> significant day. the lunch with senators and top biden advisors, nato, and then the 5:30 p.m. news conference. correspondent ali vaal tee, vitali, thank you so much. thank you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. while congressional democrats are conflicted, we got a clear message today from our nation's most powerful democratic leader, george clooney. [ laughter ] george wrote a "new york times" op-ed titled, "i love joe biden. but we need a new nominee." adding, we need a money guy, safe cracker, acrobat, and brad

pitt. it's the plot of "oceans 24: amal's busy with human rights stuff and i got bored." >> yeah, you knew you're in trouble when even -- >> george clooney, a highly influential fundraiser for the democrats, is now calling for a new nominee. it comes amid more dissent on capitol hill among democrats. the first sitting u.s. senator and now nine house democrats have publicly said president biden should leave the race. today will be a huge test for the fate of the president's campaign. he will try to calm fears with a news conference in washington after spending the day with world leaders at the nato summit. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 11th. along with joe, willie, and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and also with us, msnbc contributor mike barnicle.

u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. also with us, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany is with us this morning. a lot going on amid new cries for the president to step aside, and the debate, you can hear it across the country. >> you can hear it across the country. you can definitely hear it, mika, across the party. in the gospel of matthew, jesus said to religious leaders, every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. lincoln, with the specter of a civil war rising over slavery, quoted jesus, a house divided against itself cannot stand. lincoln said, i do not expect the union to be dissolved. i do not expect the house to fall. but i do expect it will cease to be divided. it will become all one thing or

all the other. lincoln encouraged his party in 1858 to stand together once again. quote, two years ago we did this under the siege of impulse of resistance to a common danger with every external circumstance against us. lincoln's words then are all too relevant to the democratic party this morning. this morning, we report to you that there is a deep rupture running throughout the democratic party, a split tearing at the party's very foundation, a divide that's only going to serve to elect a man who has repeatedly promised to be a dictator on day one. president biden is on one side of that democratic divide. we all know, biden supporters saved american democracy in 2020 by defeating a malignant force promising to undermine the constitution itself, make common

cause with america's enemies, and refused to accept any democratic election result that declared him defeated. president biden endured the bloody aftermath of january 6th riots, the stealing of nuclear secrets and sensitive war plans by trump, his calling for the execution of joint chiefs chairman and the hanging of his own vice president, his writing that the constitution should be terminated if that was required to overthrow election results. against that grim backdrop, mr. biden passed more bipartisan legislation than any president this century. he created more jobs than any president this century. he led america out of covid more strongly than any country on this planet. he's overseen the strongest dollar in half a century and the strongest economic growth in the world. america's economy is the envy of

the world, period. under biden, our military and alliances are stronger relative to the rest of the world than any time since world war ii. this, my friends, is not a matter of debate, unless you get your news from tiktok or on a cable news channel allergic to the truth. despite what donald trump says, america is great. america is strong. america is respected across the world. joe biden's leading a nato summit this week that, with biden's leadership, is now the strongest alliance in the world's history. now, on the other side of this divide, are many of the most powerful democratic politicians, thought leaders, and donors, and they are all saying privately, and they may soon say this publicly, that joe biden cannot win this election. that is now almost a universal

sentiment among the hundreds of democrats who have spoken out over the last 36 hours, many of whom have called me and voiced these very real concerns. they say democrats' poll numbers are collapsing, fundraising is drying up, and any chance of saving the senate and house from trump rule over the next four years is vanishing before their eyes. two sides in this democratic divide with two compelling arguments, but the window on saving american democracy is closing. joe biden is dug in. he's got the votes. he's got the delegates. it is his rightful nomination. but also dug in are those who revere the president but cherish american democracy even more. for them, this is a zero sum

gain. that's why a handful of democrats biden respects, nancy pelosi, ted kaufman, jim clyburn, john kerry, ron klain, and his family, jill, val, and hunter biden, need to come together this weekend and talk about the consequences of this campaign and this candidacy on this country's future. democrats have to unite against the immediate threat before america's 240 year constitutional republic is no more. lincoln finished the 1858 speech telling his fellow party members, against strange, discordant, even hostile elements, we gathered from four winds and we fought the battle through, under the constant hot fire of a disciplined, proud, and pampered enemy.

did we brave all then to falter now? now when that same enemy is wavering? lincoln said, we shall not fail if we stand firm. we shall not fail if we stand together. mika, so said lincoln then, and so says a watchful and very worried nation now. >> yeah. it's such a great point. what we need more than anything at this moment, and what we have noticed this week in covering this, especially among the democrats, is what we don't have is unity on this. willie, it is taking a toll, absolutely, on the campaign. the poll numbers and in conversations about biden's presidency. of course, anybody who is running against donald trump wants the focus to be on donald

trump. >> yeah. that is the concern of people of good faith on both sides of this argument. democrats who believe joe biden should get out of the race so they can do exactly what joe just described and beat donald trump, and those who believe he needs to stay in the race because we need, democrats say, to defeat donald trump. good faith arguments on both sides, but there is a gamble. push joe biden aside, put up a candidate, we don't know who yet, who could lose to donald trump, as well. on the other side, joe biden could stay in and lose, as well. it is, by definition, a gamble. we will see. president biden has said he is not going anywhere despite what we heard yesterday. a major, major moment today, though, at 5:30 eastern time when president biden will hold his first official news conference since the poor debate performance last month. white house officials tell nbc news the president has been preparing throughout the week, expected to face intense scrutiny from the press. president biden plans to highlight the contrast between his policy positions and those of donald trump.

officials are not specifying how many journalists the president may call on today or how long the news conference may last. this comes as the first democratic senator is publicly calling for president biden to drop out of the race. senator peter welch of vermont wrote an op-ed in the "washington post" for him to drop out for the good of country. quote, "i understand why president biden wants to run. he saved us from donald trump once and wants to do it again. but he needs to reassess whether he is the best candidate to do so. in my view, he is not. for the good of the country, i'm calling on president biden to withdraw from the race. vermont loves joe biden," writes senator welch. "president biden, vice president harris received a larger percentage of the vote here than any other state. but they're terrified of another trump presidency. states that were once strongholds are leaning

republican. the shifts in minnesota, new hampshire, arkansas, and more, have gone republican. we have asked president biden to do so much for so many for so long. he needs to do it again. news conference at 5:30 today. it comes after a long day. bilateral meeting with president zelenskyy of ukraine, along with other meetings around the 75th anniversary of nato. what should we expect at about 5:30 tonight? >> first, you're right to note the schedule. it also comes after a long day at nato yesterday which included an evening event. it has been a grueling week for the president. he also heeds to michigan tomorrow for an important campaign rally. all eyes will be on this news conference at 5:30 p.m. the president has not done many of these extensive solo news conferences since the early days of his term. in fact, the first news

conference he did, which was, i believe, in march of 2021, went more than an hour. after it did so, first lady jill biden reprimanded staff, saying it was too long. the president's performance had faded as it went along. normally, we see him in smaller events, usually staying with a foreign leader, known as a two and two, each leader takes two questions from a pair of reporters. this will be the president alone. we don't know how many questions yet. we've been promised it will be substantial. whether that means four questions, six, ten, we'll have to see. it can't be overstated, this is a big moment. the biggest for this president since the debate. let's separate his performance in office, which all democrats continue to praise, versus his continued viability as a candidate. so many democrats in the last 24 hours have said, especially as the defections continue in the moment with speaker pelosi on our air yesterday, they want to be reassured. they want to see a strong performance. he'll be up there, off the cuff, spontaneous, no teleprompter.

the first time he's had a moment like this since the debate that went so poorly for him. it is a chance to reassure democrats if he does well. now, what is the standard of doing well? that remains to be seen. what sort of performance does he need to deliver? at the moment, momentum suggests that no matter how well he does tonight, it won't silence all democrats' worries, joe, but it could certainly help. it can certainly help. if he does poorly, and i suspect the avalanche will only grow for calls for him to get out of the race. >> you know, mike, so much of the panicking is connected to polls. so many of the polls, the internal polls that house and senate members have been seeing, the private polls, not the media polls, private polls have been horrific. the public polls, the media polls have not been quite as bad. give you an example as far as the horse race goes. this morning at 6:00 a.m., as we came on this show, "the washington post" and ipsos

released a poll. now, it showed 67% of americans think joe biden needs to get out of the race. he is too old to run for president. there's a majority of democrats, let me get the exact number, a majority of democrats, 56% of democrats believe that joe biden should get out of the race. so that is -- those are two things that those wanting joe biden out of the race will certainly point to. what will joe biden point to today, mike barnicle? the fact this "washington post"/ipsos poll shows a dead heat. 46% to 46%. polls have been all over the place. a lot of the media polls have been bad. but this poll today will be one that joe biden will be holding up, saying, i'm tied.

show me -- i've heard there's one poll that shows kamala is. i'm telling you, i've seen a ton of polls. neither kamala nor gavin newsom nor any of the other democrats are doing as well against joe biden -- or against donald trump as joe biden is. i am not making the argument that he stays in the race or goes. i'm just saying, here's an example of why there is a great divide. democrats who want him out will say, two out of three americans, mr. president, say you are too old to serve. you cannot win. joe biden will come back with the same poll saying, yeah, and i'm tied with donald trump. tied with donald trump even after the worst performance of my life. explain that, mike. >> well, yeah, i'll try. [ laughter ] >> joe and mika, you both know

joe biden very well. in joe biden's mind, there is a huge difference between someone trying to push him out and people seeking to give him the option of leaving on his own. that's why what you mentioned at the top of the hour, the possibility of a group of people who he respects, knows, admires, and even loves, nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, john kerry, chris dodd, others like that, gathering with him and talking this out. because it has to be talked out. because right now, he's being cannibalized by his own party, by different rumors, various senators and congresspeople, saying, you know, it is time for him to leave. his problem is now one of reality and one of perception, both married together. the perception is, among a lot of people since the debate, is that he is just too old to serve another term. the problem politically is he has a strong base of support, oddly enough, among senior

citizens, always had had that support among senior citizens. anybody 70, 75 years old or older is going to look at joe biden and think, knowing their own lives, saying, geez, it is possible he could die in office. that's a reality. that's a reality that everyone has to deal with. he had a tough debate. he's talked about it. jonathan is correct, this afternoon at 5:30, the press conference is going to be vital to his survival as a candidate for the presidency. before that, it's got to come down to a group of people who know and admire him, who he knows knows and admire him, people he trusts, sitting down in the white house and talking this through, rather than have this political death by cannibalization every single day. >> you know, willie, we learned many things from the debate. we learned that joe biden

obviously had something go terribly wrong with him that night. we still don't know what it was. as i said before, for those carnival barkers screaming about a media coverup, you find the person that saw joe biden like that and bring him on our show. we'll be glad to interview them. i never saw anything that looked like that, but it was horrifying that night. i say that to also say that in even "the new york times"/siea poll, even after that horrific display, joe biden picked up independent voters. even after a divided and desolate democratic party, torn at the seams, while the trump campaign is talking about a landslide now, they are planning for a landslide, we have a

"washington post"/ipsos poll coming out this morning that says two-thirds of americans consider joe biden too old to be president, yet he is tied with donald trump. which, of course, is an argument for both sides. joe biden can say, i'm tied with donald trump. >> right. >> to her side can say, yes, you're tied with donald trump, despite the fact you couldn't complete a sentence throughout an entire 90-minute debate. so let's get somebody in there who can, and think how badly we will beat him. again, that debate will go on, but one thing that can't be debated is a majority of americans despise donald trump and find the thought of him being in the white house absolutely impossible to square with their vision of what a president should be. >> that's exactly right. that's what i mean by i say

these are two sides of good faith within the democratic party who want one thing, to make sure that donald trump does not return to the white house. they have two different views about the best ways to prevent that from happening. some believe it is to stay with joe biden. others believe in the unknown. they'd like to see a plan, i think, is part of the problem. okay, if joe biden steps aside, what's your plan? we haven't heard a definitive plan, other than handing it off to vice president kamala harris, which, of course, makes the most sense. others say open it up at the convention. still no signs, jackie alemany, that the president is stepping aside. he sent that letter, could not have been more clear on monday to congressional democrats. i'm not going anywhere. he made many of the same points that joe was saying this morning, which is, the longer this goes on, the longer we fight this out in public, the more it helps donald trump. let's get together. let's fight this guy. let's beat this guy. what are you hearing on capitol hill right now? what we've heard is, privately, people are worried about joe

biden, worried about his age. they may think he needs to step aside, but they hesitate to say it publicly. nancy pelosi on this very show yesterday morning, of course, with some innuendo, saying he needs to make a decision soon, talking about president biden, to which the biden campaign says, he did make a decision. he sent that letter on monday. he's staying in. so where is that democratic caucus this morning? >> yeah, willie, the letter clearly wasn't clear enough for people like former speaker nancy pelosi who made big news, subtle news but big news. a significant reframing of the conversation on this show yesterday. her interview really sent shockwaves through the halls of congress, especially, you know, amongst democratic aides and staffers who were already on edge. you know, there was this feeling last week when members are at home and were really frustrated and felt like there was going to be some momentum coming back into washington, d.c., to make

have some influence and try to convince biden to potentially at least be open to the discussion of stepping aside. that conversation quieted early in the week. then, yesterday, pelosi sort of reopened the door there, and it looks like she's kind of paving the way for a potential exit ramp, or at least providing cover for members, for those front liners, these vulnerable democrats who are seeing the polling that we're all talking about and perhaps, you know, polling that we're not seeing, internal polling that is showing some really damning results for them. as one house aide put it to me yesterday, a senior house aide, we have no path to take back the house if biden remains at the top of the ticket. that's why you're seeing the former speaker speak out the way she did, again, to try to reframe this conversation. she's an institutionalist. she's someone who lives and dies by the house. at the end of the day, that is her priority.

democrats need four seats to recapture the majority. there is a lot of, you know, happy talk publicly about getting behind biden and ultimately having hakeem jeffries be the speaker of the house in a democratic majority next year. but the writing is on the wall for an increasing amount of members that that's not going to happen if biden stays at the top of the ticket. one of the big problems, willie, is exactly what you just referenced, the lack of a contingency plan. i think that's why we're not seeing more members come forward right now. that is the sort of back half of this conversation that is troubling a lot of members. the lack of logistical prowess, of fearing about some measures around ballot concerns in states if biden were to come off the ticket and needed to be replaced, could that actually logistically be done in a way? or would there have to be litigation, legal fights like in ohio? then the consensus around that candidate. a lot of donors, members are hearing from donors they want an open process, and they're not

necessarily rallying behind kamala harris. >> the lack of a contingency plan is a key question for democrats stepping out saying that joe biden should step out of the race. also, the inability to move the conversation to the real alternative. because democrats, so far, have not put an alternative out there, so the alternative is donald trump. after staying out of the public eye for days to let the democratic infighting play out, donald trump returned to the campaign trail on tuesday night, holding a campaign rally in florida. the former president rejoiced as how much the political landscape changed since his debate against joe biden. yet, as "the new york times" pointed out, at various points in his 90-minute performance, mr. trump sounded eye-wateringly cruel. he gleefully asserted that mr. biden had undergone many botched face-lifts and has really bad hair.

[ laughter ] >> wait, first of all -- >> been there. >> hold on. he's talking about face-lifts and really bad hair? >> mm-hmm. >> wait, is this the whole john heilemann, everything he says is projection or confession? >> the face-lift thing, okay. he went on about how revolting mr. biden looked. i want to make that clear, he said mr. biden. >> yeah. >> in a bathing suit. he said mr. biden looked revolting in a bathing suit. again, that guy. >> projection, confession? thank god we haven't seen him in a bathing suit in a while. >> he referred to photos of biden sitting shirtless in a beach chair. you know, those chairs are meant for children and old people to lift, and he can't even lift them, mr. trump jeered. he repeatedly called chris christie, the former new jersey governor, a fat pig.

>> again, buy a mirror. >> my goodness. he suggested that nancy pelosi might actually be deteriorating faster than mr. biden. she's not doing too well, he said buoyantly. though everything was going his way, he struck familiar paranoid notes, telling his listeners, who included several of his grandchildren, about a sinister plot to defraud the american public that was being woven by a shadowy establishment that hated them. and while calling for the death penalty for drug dealers, he did a histrionically sing song impression of a mother watching her child hopelessly dying in their arms, screaming, "what can i do? what can i do? help me, god! what can i do?" >> mocking a mother who was holding a dying child in their arms, katty. we hear this is the new and improved donald. i've been hearing it for the past week, this is the new and improved donald trump. he's positive. >> this is to your point. >> he is happy.

he is not the old donald trump. he's really been liberated. there we have donald trump calling people fat pigs. donald trump mocking others. donald trump mocking a mother holding her dying child. >> i mean, is he mentally fit? >> it doesn't sound like the new and improved donald. i swear, it's all you hear from trump people. oh, you know, he's changed. he's not the trump of three years ago. he's not the trump of three months ago. here he is, he's actually taking great joy in a mother's child dying in her arms. >> yeah. or writing on truth social that kamala harris, in a clear dog whistle, should caddie for him in a golf tournament against joe biden. this is the donald trump that his campaign does not want particularly out there in public. it is not the donald trump who showed up to that debate. that was the more disciplined donald trump. as we have always said, that

doesn't last very long with the former president. he is out there again. the frustration for the democrats is that when they see donald trump performing like he did in that rally in florida, it seems to them clear they should be ahead in the polls, that they should be able to beat donald trump easily, and, yet, the ipsos poll shows they're tide. you can play that one either way. like you, joe, i've been hearing from democrats on the hill, from democrats in the white house, from democrats who are close to joe biden, and there is no joy in this. there is nobody there who is celebrating the situation they find themselves in. as one member of congress said to me, all of us who really love joe biden and support him wish that we could say to him, it's okay to step aside and shore up your legacy and protect your legacy. the two things mentioned on the program this morning are the internal polls, that one member of congress said show

cataclysmic results for democrats in the house in 2024, in november, such they wouldn't even be able to perform well in 2026 because they'd lose so many seats this november. the other thing is the money. george clooney's article, and we know clooney is close to barack obama, his op-ed did nothing to reassure democrats that the financing would be there. the pressure, as we've been hearing, has been building over the last 24 hours in a different way. >> yeah. still ahead on -- we're going to check out that caddie thing. i heard that, as well, on truth social. >> yeah. we've tried to -- had several people send that golf challenge and kamala harris at augusta. we haven't seen any confirmation of that yet. we'll see if, in fact, that was just another phony thing, which is easy to do. because he writes so many crazy, bizarre things, but we'll check and confirm that, as well.

but, again, you look. i just want to underline what we've said all along. there is this great divide. right now, we have a poll out this morning that says that the race is tied 46-46. two-thirds of americans say joe biden is too old to run for president. so here we have this democratic debate that will continue that has to be resolved. >> yeah, i'm struck, as we've been talking since this poll crossed, going through all these cross tabs, about how little the debate changed in the race. it is tied at 46 points. 92% of democrats say if joe biden is the nominee, we'll vote for him. democrats are saying what you've just said, joe, which is, let us know what we're doing here. we will support whatever the effort is to defeat donald trump. it is that important. let us know the plan, and we're on board. 92% of the democrats in this

poll after two weeks of consternation say, if joe biden is the nominee, we will support him. they just want to know what the plan is. >> well, i will say, also, jonathan lemire, and i know you've been covering this and you've been hearing, have been reporting about it, you know, first of all, people are saying now, the early response, so this is an outlier. we heard the same thing about the bloomberg poll that was fairly positive for joe biden in swing states a few days ago. oh, that's an outlier. you can only -- at some point, positive polls saying, as willie said, the debate didn't move anything, at some point, outliers stop becoming outliers. they become actual polls that matter. i will say, one thing we do have to underline here, just so viewers can follow, what's going on behind the scenes is the biden campaign and many democratic officials do believe

that barack obama is quietly working behind the scenes to orchestrate this. if joe biden believes that, that's not going to get him out of the race any faster. any time david axelrod attacks him, david axelrod ensures that joe biden will dig himself in another day. any time the pod bros say something nasty about joe biden, which they have repeatedly said nasty things about joe biden, before the debate, after the debate, every time they do that, he digs in a little bit further. the pathway to joe biden graciously stepping aside does not go through the obamas or the clintons. it just doesn't.

again, as i said, because some people don't understand, i'm not talking about what ought to be. i'm talking about what is. and this is the reality, jonathan lemire. joe biden is deeply resentful of his treatment under not only the obama staff but also the way he was pushed aside for hillary clinton. he's deeply resentful of those trying to shove him out of the way. he's always felt like an outsider, always felt like people have looked down upon him. that's why i said at the top of the show, people who know him best say, the only people that can talk to him are nancy pelosi, ted kaufman, chris dodd, john kerry, ron klain, of course jim clyburn, and members of the biden family. >> lemire, hold on one second. it is not just resentment.

he's been right. he's proven them wrong. it's like, you guys are wrong. >> people have mocked and ridiculed him. look at david axelrod's quotes through the years, mocked and ridiculed him on his way to victory in 2020. >> yeah, president biden, his whole political career, he talks about this. he feels like he's been underestimated, and that fuels his success. he has been knocked down. he's suffered a number of set setbacks. he's candid about it. he forges forward. as an irishman, he proudly holds grudges and uses them as fuel. 2016 decision, obama supported hillary clinton instead of joe biden for the presidential nomination that year, that's something that has eaten at biden ever since. there are a select group of people he could listen to. you went through most of them. certainly has to be underlined his family would have the most sway. another name i'd add is chuck

schumer, the senate majority leader. some democrats feel if schumer were to come to him and say, look, schumer and pelosi perhaps, if you stay ahead the topic, the effects down ballot would be devastating, perhaps that is something he'd listen to. hakeem jeffries said he'd share concerns directly with the president in the days ahead. but every single signal we've gotten from the biden camp is he's made his decision, he is staying in. now, there are real concerns. >> going nowhere. >> yeah, he's not going anywhere. there are concerns about fundraising, and not just george clooney, who provided firsthand reporting as to how he felt the president seemed. the biden team has really pushed back, saying he had flown halfway around the world because george clooney couldn't change his schedule. they had to have the fundraiser that day, and the two men briefly interacted. there's that. more than that, there's concerns about donors saying, the big money might dry up unless something changes fast. today matters. first of all, the president is

doing his job. he's on the world stage at nato. he is meeting with president zelenskyy of ukraine. that matters. top biden aides going to the senate today to try to quell concerns, to prevent the dam from really breaking, that matters. then at 5:30 p.m., that news conference with the president, no prompter, off the cuff, answering a number of questions from jourmjournalists, that's g to matter, too, to try to get democrats to stay in line. then they can change the conversation and make it about trump, as he names his vp and gets to the convention in the days ahead. >> willie, there are few guarantees in life, hardly any in american politics. but if joe biden is watching this morning, and he heard the quotes from donald trump's performance in doral, florida, i can guarantee you, he's thinking to himself, i can beat that guy. i can beat that guy. that's a guy who has not topped

50% in any poll taken thus far. there's that. >> by the way, this idea of the new trump other the last two weeks, the new trump is he disappeared. he stepped off the stage and let democrats have this fight. then he showed up two nights ago, and everyone was reminded exactly of who he is. jackie alemany, couple quick notes. "playbook" is reporting this morning that george clooney gave former president obama a heads-up about the op-ed he was going to post in "the new york times." president obama, according to "playbook," didn't object. there were prominent people in hollywood who work with the biden campaign. jeffrey katzenberg, trying to talk clooney out of publishing the op-ed. there's cross-currents there. we talk about "the washington post" poll this morning. remind people, some of the battle ground polls have shown slippage for the president since the debate, but mostly within the margin of error. as you cover capitol hill today, jackie, the question for you is, what is the democratic leadership waiting for? what do they need to see?

what do they want to see? is it the press conference today? is it something else down the road? when will they consolidate, not all of them? we've already seen some defections that say joe biden should get out of the race. but when will the leadership finally say, if it chooses to, joe biden is our candidate, we're getting behind him? >> yeah, willie. we're looking at a few different things today, obviously. the 5:30 press conference, that's going to be a huge, huge test for biden. if the stakes weren't already high enough, nancy pelosi raised those stakes. everyone is going to be watching that today. fortunately, though, for lawmakers, they're all flying out prior to the press conference. we might not be able to get instantaneous reaction there. as we've seen with leaks these past two weeks, hopefully we will get a vibe shift reading asap. the other thing we're look at is this luncheon that senate democrats are having with the trio of top biden campaign advisors. there has been a lot of

frustration that basically no one on the hill has been able to get in touch with biden. one aide told me yesterday they feel like if any of the top leaders, currently in house or senate leadership, called the white house switchboard, they doubt they'd be able to reach biden himself directly. a lot of senate democrats were grambling that biden himself isn't coming to the senate luncheon. but what they're looking for from this luncheon is poll, data, a game plan, as we've all discussed, for these advisors to present to the senate democrats to try to staunch the bleeding. we're also looking closely at the congressional black caucus. they had a weekly standing luncheon yesterday. that luncheon, funny enough, had been prescheduled with debbie dingell for messaging. talking about project 2025 and how corrosive it is to the country and democratic voters. what we've heard was, actually,

there was a lot of grumbling in that meeting. there's a lot of pressure now on the minority leader, hakeem jeffries, to try to get the cbc to pull back on their support for biden that is preventing a lot of people, i think, in the house from maybe coming forward and being more vocal, public, and on the record with their concerns. >> mika, if you want a summary, a neat summation of where democrats are, not only on the hill but across america, most of them are where congressman emmanuel cleaver are. he said, i want somebody who can win. if it's biden, it's fine. if it's someone else, it's also fine. that's where democrats are. they understand the threat posed by donald trump is existential. >> yeah, this messy middle is not helping. >> this is not about personalities. it's not about personal loyalty,

not even political loyalty. it all comes down to who can win. that's the battle ahead for democrats. they need to figure it out. they need to come together. they need to do for the win. >> congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," president biden touts a strong nato on his second day hosting world leaders at the annual summit. we'll play for you his remarks on the importance of the alliance. plus, u.s. national security adviser jake sullivan will join us live from the white house. first, dnc chair jaime harrison is standing by to talk about democratic support for biden's candidacy. he joins us next on "morning joe." we're back in 90 seconds. a beautiful wager, and i never like talking about it. she's beautiful inside. you never talk about a person,

ever. you never mention it. the other day, i got angry. some man called chris christie fat, and i said, sir! then he said he was a pig. i said, sir, chris christie is not a fat pig. please remember that. he is not a fat pig. please take it back. the guy is looking at me, like, really? no, we have to defend people. you can't call people fat. i said it about nine times, he is not a fat pig.

the abortion issue is simplified right now because i brought it out. by getting rid of roe v. wade, that was an incredible thing. because after 52 years, and everybody wanted this, democrats, republicans, all legal scholars wanted it. >> you know, that's just not true. i mean, you know, again, if you get your news -- i'd love to hear what the follow-up to that was. i know if you get your news from liars on tiktok or carnival barkers on other cable news networks, then you may believe that. but you also may believe that the moon is made of cheese, i suppose, if they tell you that enough. the fact is, an overwhelming number of americans oppose the overturning of roe v. wade. i've got to say, an overwhelming number of legal scholars that i've read disagree with the

overturning of roe v. wade. so for donald trump to say, everybody was for it, this and that and the other, you know, then he goes around bragging about getting rid of it, terminating roe v. wade, then tries to back off, you know, it's just such a total mess on roe v. wade. the fact is, donald trump said he terminated roe v. wade. he was proud of it. he said that time and time again. despite the fact that 60%, 70% of americans were against the overturning of roe v. wade and have been for quite some time, the overturning of a right that women had for just about 50 years. >> yeah. and what donald trump has done is made pregnancy a harrowing experience, denied abortion health care to women who need it, and is causing a risk to their lives and to babies, as well. so what you just heard was donald trump speaking yesterday on the fox news radio program "the brian kilmeade show."

the biden campaign set out an email yesterday seizing on those comments, highlighting the damage it says trump has done to the country on the issue. >> willie, it is interesting. he can't seem to get this abortion issue right. i mean, he did what he did. one day, he'll talk about terminating roe v. wade, and it was the greatest thing ever. everybody was for it. that's a big lie. in fact, it's caused chaos for republicans at the polls. then the next day, he'll say, oh, we're going to soften the language in the republican party platform, like that's going to do anything. then he'll get angry and blame pro-life voters for costing republicans the 2022 election, for costing him the 2020. i mean, it's just, again, it's just a big mess, which means americans will go to the default, which is donald trump terminated roe v. wade, just like he said.

>> that's objectively true. he appointed three supreme court justices who helped to overturn roe versus wade. he owns it. he said it is what he wanted. he said it is what he wanted in the 2016 campaign. remember chris matthews asked him if women who get abortions should be punished, and he said yes. there has to be some form of punishment. it's on tape, on the record. he got his supreme court justices, and here we are. he knows it is bad politically so is trying to back away with it. it is no easy task, given the fact he had a hand in the overturning of wade. let's bring in the chairman of the democratic national committee, jime harrison. great to have you back on the show. we can talk abortion in a moment, but you're hearing all the talk. members on capitol hill, friends of yours worried about president biden, worried about the debate. we'll be watching this press conference today. is there any doubt in your mind that president biden should be the democratic nominee for

president? >> no doubt whatsoever, willie. listen, 14 million people in 50 states and our five territories, d.c. and our democrats abroad, went to the polls, did caucuses, and voted for joe biden to be our nominee. so without any hesitation, equivocation, i am saying joe biden, who has over 90% of the delegates to the dnc convention, is the nominee for our party. so, folks, it's time to follow the lead of the cbc. it is time to follow the lead of the chc. what we saw with labor yesterday, it's time to lock your knees and stiffen your spines and get on board to support this president. if you're spending more of your time on tv talking about joe biden than talking about donald trump and project 2025, folks, ya got to do a course correction. we've got to focus on the greatest threat to american democracy that we have ever seen. that is in donald trump.

a man who ripped away women's right to control their own bodies for the first time in 50 years. the daughters who are growing up now have less rights than their mothers and their grandmothers. we cannot allow that to continue and to happen. the focus has to be on beating donald trump. joe biden has done it before, and he can do it again. >> chairman harrison, no question, the stakes of the election are as high as you say. we should note, so many of the primary ballots were cast before the debate. these voters now have new information, and so do lawmakers. my question to you is, how do you respond to influential democrats, like former house speaker pelosi, who yesterday made clear she was not ready to go along with a biden campaign? what is your answer to them? >> well, the speaker made clear that she supports joe biden. has always supported joe biden and will support joe biden. you know, this is the thing that folks have to understand.

why do you vote for a president? do you vote for a president payoff their age? do you vote for them because they debate well? if debating well was the real key to winning elected office, i'd be u.s. senator right now. i dragged lindsey graham's behind across the debate stage. that's not why you vote for a president. you vote for a president to get stuff done. what president has gotten more stuff done than joe biden? this has been the most consequential, the most transformational president of my lifetime. i'm 48 years old. think about the things that he has done to improve the lives of the american people. right now, prescription drugs are lower because of joe biden. right now, roads, bridges, internet is being placed in communities, lead pipes ripped out because of joe biden. right now, a million veterans are getting more benefits to address the issues of being exposed to toxic fumes because of joe biden. the largest climate investment in the history of this country because of joe biden. this man has transformed the

judiciary. he has appointed more black women to the courts of appeal than all presidents combined. that's because of joe biden. first gun safety legislation in 30 years because of joe biden. i can go on and on and on about how this man has transformed this nation as president. that's why you vote for a president. donald trump can't claim that. joe biden can. that's what we need. he has earned this nomination. it hasn't been given to him. he earned it because of the good work he's done for the american people. so we need to stick with him. look at what the republicans are doing right now. this guy has been convicted, donald trump, 34 times convicted felon. found liable of sexually assaulting a woman. we're going to send that to the white house? wake up, america! wake up, dedemocrats! time to stiffen your spine, beat your knees, and be for the president. stop with the hand wringing. let's focus on winning this election, not for joe biden but for the american people. >> chairman, when you hear

donald trump in florida last night and the kinds of things he was saying at the event, and i erroneously quoted a truth social post about kamala harris, and that is a fake, which is my mistake. but when you hear him, the kinds of things he was saying in florida, how do you account for the polls that democratic congressman are saying they're seeing, for the house races in november given what donald trump is saying on the campaign trail this week? >> this is the difference. donald trump is a lunatic. we all know that. he is a narcissistic liar who wants to be a dictator day one. his project 2025 allows that to happen. his supreme court that says he has blanketed immunity to do whatever the hell he wants allows him to do that. what you have seen on the republican side is them falling in line. knowing all of that they've known, twice impeached and all, falling in line. the reason why the polls are as close as they are, and they're

close, razor close, is because we as democrats need to solidify behind our guy. stop the hand wringing. stop all the cerebral hoops we're jumping through, and focus on joe biden. a good man. a decent man. a man who has worked hard to transform this nation. he's been doing the job for four years. he's doing it right now on the nato stage. he has brought america back to its prominence in the international arena. i don't understand why the, i need to see this. hell, you've seen it the last 3 1/2 years. what more do you need to see? we were talking a few months ago about how amazing joe biden's speech, one of the best speeches we've ever seen at the state of the union. because of a 90-minute debate, we throw all of that away? come on, folks. focus on what is important, which is america's freedom. you have two men in this race, two men. you have donald trump, who we know who he is and what he will do because he's done it before. and we have joe biden, who has a

track record better than any president in my lifetime. let's do the right thing. let's focus on supporting this president, and let's get this done. >> chair of the democratic national committee, jaime harrison, thank you so much for coming on the show this morning. come back soon. appreciate it. >> no ambiguity. >> i appreciate a lack of ambiguity. that's what we need right now. coming up, president biden touts the importance of nato. some world leaders appear to be nervous of a second trump presidency. we'll break down their concerns ahead on "morning joe."

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here's what one democratic rep had to say coming out of yesterday's closed door meeting. >> you all on the same page? >> no. >> what do you mean you're not on the same page? >> we're not even in the same book. >> wow. that was pretty rough. well, could i recommend a new book? "oh, the places for joe!" [ applause ] is he mentally fit? can he serve a whole term? can he beat rfk with his brain full of worm? just ask him, just ask him, the man loves to talk, as long as you ask him before 8:00.

[ laughter ] welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 11th. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle, and katty kay are still with us. joining the conversation, we have former msnbc host and contributor to "washington monthly," chris matthews joins us. good to have you on this morning, chris. here is more from "the washington post" poll we mentioned a few moments ago. the latest "washington post"/abc news/ipsos poll finds that two-thirds of u.s. adults want president biden to step aside and let someone else run. 56% of democrats say president biden should end his candidacy, while 42% say he should continue to seek reelection. that same poll finds biden and former president donald trump in a dead heat with both candidates receiving 46% support nationally among registered voters.

>> yeah. >> i'm just going to tee you up there, joe. >> willie, i mean, let's again look at really the main takeaways here. one, like other polls, not all polls but there have been several polls that have shown have little slippage for joe biden since that debate. in fact, "the new york times"/siena poll, which is usually one of the most negative result-oriented polls for joe biden showed biden picking up among independent voters, though he was down, i think, six. this "washington post" poll shows two-thirds of americans think joe biden should get out of the race because he is too old, yet he is tied with donald trump 46% to 46%. and the question for those democrats who -- >> do you throw that away? >> -- seriously in their heart believe, a was talked about before, that joe biden is too

old, he needs to step aside and let somebody else run who can beat donald trump, how do you push somebody out of the white house who won every primary contest, 90% of the votes, 90% of the delegates, and is a couple of days away from being voted, i think online, a couple days away from being voted the party's nominee? especially when you have a poll that shows he's dead even and other polls that show he does petter than any other democrat lined up against donald trump. >> it is an extraordinary moment, and this poll really puts that into relief. the race nationally is tied after all we've been talking about fully for two weeks now. we're two weeks out from the debate where joe biden performed so poorly and has been scrambling to kind of keep everything together since then, keep his party together, keep his support together. 46 to 46 nationally. we'll say, again, some of the

battleground state polls, the ones that really matter, have seen donald trump increase his margins there a bit since the debate. most of those still are within the margin of error. 46% of democrats say he should get out of the race. 67% of adults say he should get out of the race. still, those numbers you're looking at are the same numbers we saw since april. i'd point out in this poll, joe biden's approval rating among all voters and among democrats, exactly where it was in april. he's still the guy. they believe if he decides to stay in the race, 92%, again, of democrats say they will support him in the new poll. chris matthews, with all of that as a backdrop, fascinated to hear your thoughts about this moment, where we are, whether this president should move forward, whether he should step aside and open the door to the great unknown for democrats. many democrats appear willing to take that risk and see what's behind the door. what do you think?

>> well, i think we have to look at all the facts. one of the facts is joe biden. he's a fact. this guy earned this way to this position in life. united states president. he got here the long way. 1972, he ran against boggs, three-term senator and beat him well. he was celebrated for pulling the upset. he put out no television in wilmington or delaware. he put out literature the weekend before delivered by volunteers, which was a brilliant piece of literature. he is a politician who has been good at it. he's been re-elected every time since then in delaware with pretty healthy majorities. in life, he lost his wife and lost his daughter, and he found jill. now, who is he going to listen to, jill or george clooney? i'm telling ya, it's personal. he's had the elite, and it's so true about the elite.

he's absolutely right about the elite. he served obama eight years loyally, yet obama backed hillary clinton for president and didn't back him. i hear he never invited him upstairs. he had a good reason to be resentful, but he isn't. he puts up with the elite. right now, he's got the poor people, got minorities, he's got hispanics, he'll put out labor and hold the base of the democratic party, which he will need in november. i'm telling you, people are going to root for him in october because he will have a comeback. in this elite-fashioned attack on him, they're going to pay for it. in the end, they'll end up voting for him. i think biden will be the little guy. he'll be the democrat in this race. the true democrat. he's going to get people to turn for him in october. it'll be stunning. he is not quitting. he is not built to quit. that's what i think, and i think it's the most important thing we're going to resolve here by

tonight. i hope he is prepared to face the press. the press will not be easy on him. they've been kept from him. "the new york times" editorial board never got to interview him before they came out against him. "the philadelphia enquirer" the same way. he hasn't been available to the press. the people who come up at lunchtime to meet with the senators have to explain that. they have to explain why they've kept him in a witness protection program for all these months. why haven't they let the press meet with him? why do they keep turning down interviews? why do we have to prepare for days to meet with lester holt on monday? why don't they come up to the hill and meet with the senators? you're up there, i'll be there in a half hour, ten minutes, get it over with. meet with them. they've kept him from meeting with them. i think this is a real question they'll have to answer. that would be mike, steve, and dylan. all three have to answer that question today at noon. >> chris, not only are you a student of politics, but you are

active in politics and always have been, including your tremendous work for our great hero of history, tip o'neill. let me ask this question in terms of the campaign going forward if joe biden stays in this race. we had steve rattner on yesterday with a series of charts about the economy today compared to the economy four years ago. job growth is up amazingly compared to four years ago. wage growth is up amazingly compared to four years ago. there's a whole faction of numbers that prove that we have the best economy going in the world. why is it that the biden campaign thus far hasn't focused on four years ago when we were losing hundreds of americans a day to covid and the president of the united states was saying, drink antifreeze or something to cure it or it'll go away as mid-summer gets here. why is it the campaign isn't focusing on the differences

between today and four years ago? >> well, i want to start with what you mentioned about tip o'neill. as you know, i worked there a half dozen years. when he was really challenged by ronald reagan, a man who is really good on television, yet, tip o'neill, we had a great staff. we pushed him out. he went on television. he took on reagan in a way that was for the little guy again. people gave him a approval rating. he was right to go out and meet with the public and the press. the guys around biden are not following the rule. you have to expose people. you have to let them look at you, let them see you with all the flaws you've got. lincoln, warts and all he said. i want people to see it. then they decide they like you. the reason people find they like a politician is they discover him or her. they learn who they are. they see through all the flaws. they said, he's a good guy. he's a good guy.

trump is a bad guy. that's got to matter in the voting booth. look how he treats people, women, everybody. the way he treats his cabinet members, throws them out the window. he fires people with abandon, not just once in a while. he fires everybody. he's not good. he's charming sometimes. we all know that. but he is not a good guy. i think in the end, after all the flaws and the mistakes biden will make tonight, and everybody will jump on him and feed on him for three, four days, but they'll see joe biden. >> chris, to your point about him needing to be out there more, couple democrats texted me last night saying, well, it's good his senior leadership is going to the hill to meet with senators. why isn't the president himself? >> great question. all night i was thinking that. you have to meet people to know them. if somebody in your family, say your father said, your mom isn't the same anymore. my mom had dementia. she's not the same. you want to meet mom and see how she is doing. you don't take dad's word for it. you want to meet mom. how is she doing? you want to meet him. is he connecting? does he get your joke?

does he know what room he's in? does he know what's going on? can you imagine him going head-to-head with bibi netanyahu. is he going to take him in a meeting? can he fight him? you have to discover it yourself and meet the person. >> we talked about "the washington post" poll -- >> i'd like the likelies in that one. >> we can dig it up. polls suggest that more damaging than the debate itself to biden was the talk after the debate, all the democrats, the firing circle turning on themselves. >> yeah. >> we know it hasn't stopped. speaker pelosi here yesterday, very careful. she delivered the exact message -- >> they're asking the right questions. they should meet with him. michael bennet is great from colorado. i worked for his father in the senate budget committee. really good guy. he raised the moral issue. is this the right guy to run for president? meet him and make the judgment. biden believes it. i think his wife believes it. i believe a lot of people around

him think so. he has to mix it up with the senators. i'd do a surprise meeting tomorrow. if they'll still be around this weekend, i'd go talk to them. i really think you have to get in the room with the guy. i don't know what happened in the debate, and i worry about it. i will ask those three guys if i was a senator. was that debate an odd night for you? you have never seen him before like that. truth, tell me the truth. have you ever seen him like that before? how many times was he like that? why did you put him out there? why did he look so nervous going out there? that's what i was wondering. why was he nervous going out to face trump? if i was an adviser, i'd be thinking, i must have been wrong about setting that debate up. who pushed for the debate? jeff? they were hiding up there. no one around biden talk with the press. nobody talks with the insiders. i keep calling people up, they

don't answer anymore. anyway, i've talked too much. >> joining us now -- well, no, we want you to talk more in a moment. joining us now, one of the co-chairs of the biden/harris campaign, democratic senator chris coons of delaware. senator coons, we've heard from jaime harrison this morning. also, joe made a pretty compelling argument for this argument to end. where do you stand? especially as co-chair on the biden campaign, with this argument, what should the president do to try to end it? >> mika, he is doing it. this has been a remarkable week. this is nato summit week where, as you know and so many others up here on capitol hill know, we've got the 31 other nato allies, heads of state here in town. joe biden in the two weeks since this debate where donald trump unloaded a torrent of lies and

invective a vengeance, and joe biden admittingly had a bad night, in the two week, he's been doing exactly what he needs to do to move on from our concerns about that debate. he's campaigned in pennsylvania, in north carolina, in wisconsin. this friday, he'll be campaigning in michigan. he had a rollicking event with the afl-cio yesterday. he did a long interview with george stephanopoulos. he appeared on this show. he's doing an interview with lester holt. tonight, he does a press conference. all of this while being the leader of the free world. showing the sharp contrast between his accomplishments, strengthening nato, coming to the defense of freedom in ukraine, being leader of our nation on the world stage, and delivering the most remarkable set of bipartisan accomplishments in congress and for the american people. reducing prescription drug prices, combating gun violence,

caring for our veterans. look, it's been two weeks. the poll that came out today from "the washington post" that shows that this is still a dead heat, to me, reinforces that the longer we spend all our time talking about concerns, concerns, concerns, the more we're doing donald trump's work for him. the contrast between -- >> senator, let many ask -- >> -- them is stark. >> senator, let me ask you this, though. we've known you a long time. you've known joe biden for a long time. you've spent a lot of time around joe biden. we hear the press has been covering up for joe biden. we hear senators have been covering up for joe biden. we hear that staff members have been covering up for joe biden. i've said repeatedly on this show, i've spent a lot of time with the president. i spent a lot of time with him personally and a lot of time with him on the known. i never saw anything approaching this. if he had -- if i'd ever asked him a question and he had wandered off into a pasture,

like, and i had no idea what he was saying, i would have reported it on the show the next day. >> right. >> just like i said the day after the debate, he needs to ask himself, is he fit to run for office? so with all of that as sort of prelude, i want to ask you the question that chris matthews asked rhetorically. that is, have you ever seen joe biden acting the way he did the night of the debate? i can tell you, mika and i, and mika has known the family her entire life, we never have. >> i never have. >> we're still asking, and maybe this is the question that needs to be answered, if none of us have ever seen him act that way, what happened that night? i don't think that was jet lag from two weeks prior. >> look, the first conversation

i had with our president after the debate, he said, "i get it. that was a bad debate. i messed up." he walked through all the different ways in which his preparation, his overdoing his global leadership in foreign policy, his incredibly intense schedule, the cold he had, and the challenges he's had managing this intense schedule, going back and forth, back and forth, not just across our country, not just campaigning and governing, but around the world, that it came to a head. look, you know him. he is a tough man. he's opinionbeen knocked down h life on several occasions and always fought his way back. i have never had an incident or encounter with joe biden like that debate. my wife and i watching it also found it shocking. it was not what we expected. so as i reflect on this, many of my colleagues have asked the same question, how could the folks right around him who do see him every day -- i don't see

joe biden every day. often, when we connect, it's by phone, and it is because he is calling me. i do not ride with him on air force one regularly. delaware is not a very long trip. the times i am with him, i have never seen anything like that. the phone calls i've taken from him, he's always focused and clear. in talking to dozens of my colleagues, they have also said in their times working with him, what they've seen or what they've heard has been someone who is in command and is capable. there are some who have said publicly they've had some encounter incident. george clooney may have said that. now, i question whether george clooney has really spent a lot of time with joe biden in person. i'm more of a matt damon guy than a george clooney guy. [ laughter ] your question to me was, have i seen that? no, i have not. >> willie, i love matt damon, but, you know, george clooney, i

mean, "o brother where art thou," willie. >> i did love that movie. >> "fantastic mr. fox." >> i don't like movies. >> my children and i have seen "fantastic mr. fox" more than any movie. >> this wasn't george clooney. >> what do you mean? >> it just wasn't. come on. >> who do you think it was? >> come on. >> matt damon? >> it was not matt damon. >> who do you think it was? >> not julia roberts either. >> you can say the name. you won't melt. it is not voldemort. do you think barack obama put him up to this? >> i think that barack obama has a lot of influence, and i think that there's a lot there. >> there is a lot there. >> there is a lot there. >> there was a lot there, willie. >> there are two people in this picture, and one has had a

presidency that was absolutely undeniably historic. >> yeah. well, i think you have two people that had extraordinarily -- >> oh, i'm sorry, historic in terms of legislative accomplishments. they're both historic. >> they're both historic. barack obama, affordable care act. >> for sure. >> george -- i mean, not george clooney, though he probably said it, too, willie, but joe biden actually whispered that that was a big -- >> deal. >> -- effing deal. so, yeah, i mean, it's -- this question hangs over all conversations, willie, and not just here but with senators and everybody else, about those of us who have spent a lot of time talking to president biden, who know president biden, were stunned by what we saw a couple thursdays ago. so, okay, if that's a one-time thing, great.

but is it going to happen again? >> yeah. >> what caused it? so far, i think for most democrats who are very concerned, there hasn't been an adequate explanation that helps them move along and say, okay, we're in a dead heat right now. let's win this thing. >> yeah. i think most democrats rolled their eyes at the explanations. well, the debate was at 9:00. are you saying the leader of the free world can't perform after 9:00? well, he travelled all around the world. yeah, two weeks ago. two weeks before the debate. are you saying he is not ready for a 90-minute debate two weeks after he's traveled abroad? that stuff actually made it worse, i think, for a lot of democrats. it looked like a cover for something larger. as you said yourself, senator coons, there have been people who worked with president biden, world leaders who have come out and said, yeah, they've noticed that he has slowed down in the last couple of years. my question to you is, the argument from the biden campaign is, it's a group of elites. it's george clooney. it is rich people and donors

calling for him to step aside. but you know as well as i do that it's not just that. it's people who watched that debate, people who cringed a little even before the debate at some of his performances. democrats who like joe biden. democrats who want donald trump to lose this election and be kept from the white house who are worried. what do you say, not to elites, but to voting democrats going about their summers right now, who are concerned about president biden's age? what can you say this morning to give them confidence that he still is up to this job and would be for another four years, despite what they saw at the debate? >> well, let me first agree with what you're saying with your premise. what unites all of us is a determination to make sure that donald trump isn't re-elected. joe biden may have had a bad debate night, but our country had four bad years under donald trump. if he is re-elected, some of the craziness, the unhinged things he's been saying and some of the terrible things that, as president, he did would

continue, extend, and be amplified. so from our president to our vice president to everyone i've talked to in the senate and the house, mayors, governors, we all agree we're united and being determined to make sure that donald trump isn't re-elected. i've also said to a number of the folks from delaware, neighbors and friends, folks i grew up with, classmates, former roommates who have reached out to me, that, for me, the weekend after that debate, instead of staying at home and worrying, i got out and worked. i campaigned across southeastern pennsylvania. i think the best thing to do here is to work. get engaged in the determined and important and urgent work of this campaign. i also say that what joe biden is doing last week and this week, his leadership in meetings with world leaders, and his ability to inspire, excuse me, to inspire and engage at the church in philadelphia, on the stage with labor leaders here in washington at the afl-cio, watch

what he's doing and look at what he's done. >> yeah. >> i understand and respect many folks who have reached out to me with worry. it isn't just elites, that's true. but i've also heard from folks who are determined to fight hard for joe biden the way he's fought hard for us. >> all right. democratic senator chris coons of delaware. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you so much for being with us. chris matthews, again, another part of this vexing issue, again, i know people on the trump right like to say, oh, there's been a coverup, blah, blah, blah. i mean, again, give me names. give me people that have been covering up for biden, and let's all go to the public square and debate. but i will say, i've talked about my experiences. i will also tell you that in talking to world leaders, talking to diplomats, talking to

foreign policy pros about joe biden's interaction with foreign leaders, i've said on this show before, the french, talked to the people that were in negotiations, i think a year and a half ago, the french had read all the press reports about joe biden slowing down. they were really surprised by how tough he was in negotiations. >> yup. >> how not only did he keep up but always seemed to be a step ahead in the debates. i've heard the same thing from arab leaders. i've heard the same thing from diplomats across the world. these are the same people who were harshly critical of george w. bush. harshly critical of barack obama, saying he is leading from behind. sometimes we don't even see americans anywhere out here. donald trump speaks for itself.

so the complaints that i've gotten from world leaders about where biden is, that he is too tough and is leaning too to ward, the french, of course, enraged, enraged by, you know, how aggressively he worked with the australians to get the nuclear sub deal. >> yeah. >> to the australians. same thing with, again, some of our arab neighbors through the years. again, it's vexing to me about what happened thursday night. and who around joe biden has seen this? because if they have seen this before, they need to enlighten the rest of us. it is their patriotic duty. if they have not, okay. go ahead. >> we'll see that at lunchtime today when the three of them go up there. mike would have seen it, definitely seen it, all of them.

there's a couple things you know more than most people. in politics, there's two kinds of people generally, retailers and wholesalers. there's no doubt that bide season a fabulous retailer. he's on the phone with you, with mike once in a while. the fact is, he's on amtrak, knows everybody who works there, knows the snack bar people, the conductors, everybody. he's a one to one guy. he's personal. he's that way with world leaders. with merkel, he gets to know them personally. probably knows how their kids are doing. he's looking out for them, and he's coming across as a real person. he's not so good at the wholesale. he thinks he is great, but he's better on the personal. that's why he is re-elected in delaware because people know him and like him. that's what we're looking at here. you know, being tough, he's got to be tough now. this election, if he gets through this, and i think he will get through this this week and next week, he's got to get out there and meet both the poor

people, the people hard up economically and do like these guys for their parents, getting work. but he's got to reach into the people in the suburbs, right at the edge of the city, the working -- the middle class and even the upper middle class. those people don't like trump. he's bad news. they know he is bad news. he is an embarrassment with their children in the way he acts especially with women. he's awful. he is bad news. but he's got to go to the people and say, i'm a regular democrat. i'm not a lefty. i'm a regular democrat. you voted for people like that before. you can vote for me. he's got to turn those people in the 58th ward, 66th ward, in south philly, the italians. he's got to get moderate democrats and moderate republicans to vote for him. he's got to run a forceful, harry truman kind of campaign, whistle stopping through all the suburban areas. at the same time, making sure the young african-american is still with him. he's got to make that work. this is going to be a grueling, grueling campaign.

i wish i could help him. i think this guy is going to have a harry truman type comeback this year. i'm not saying three years from now. right now, he can do it. i think he's got to do it with the middle class and working people. he's got to get both those groups, in two different lenses, and win them over against a very, very evil, evil politician who is out there to destroy not just nato but maybe this country, too. that's not going to be easy, but i hope if it's a team and everybody gets behind him and, in the end, we're going to be rocking and socking when it comes to the october. we'll be saying, he can pull this off. this guy is going to pull this thing off. that's what i want to happen. >> chris matthews, thank you very, very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," national security adviser jake sullivan says you can count on a strong nato. he joins us live from the white house as world leaders gather in washington for the annual summit. you're watching "morning joe."

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since i took office, we've doubled the number of battle groups in nato's eastern flanks, the united states has. finland and sweden have joined the alliance. the number of allies spending at least 2% on defense has gone from 9 to 23. it's not happened by chance but by choice. >> that is president biden during yesterday's working session at the nato summit in washington. joining us now, white house national security adviser jake sullivan. he's written a guest essay for "the new york times" titled "you can count on a strong nato." mr. sullivan, good to have you on the show this morning. undeniably, nato is as strong as it's ever been. stronger than it's ever been on the 75th anniversary with the addition, as the president said there, of finland and sweden to the alliance. still, though, concerns, as you

know, from president zelenskyy, who will hold the bilateral meeting with president biden there in washington today, about how strong the alliance will be in its support of ukraine in the fight against russia. what will the president say to president zelenskyy today about american support and the support of the alliance for ukraine? >> first, thanks for having me. second, you're absolutely right. nato is stronger, bigger, and more resolved than ever. our nato allies are stepping up. one of the points i made in the sometimes op-ed, in addition to the fact that 23 nato allies now up from nine have met their 2% commitment, europe is spending more on behalf of ukraine than the united states if you take all their contributions combined. this is genuine burden sharing. what president biden will tell president zelenskyy today is that our support for ukraine is not just rhetoric. it is a reality that is playing out in the delivery of weapons to the brave ukrainian soldiers on the front lines who are

taking the fight to the russians. just this week, president biden announced five new strategic air defense systems to protect ukrainian cities. just yesterday, he announced that the transfer of u.s. made f-16s is under way and that ukrainian pilots will be flying those f-16s by the end of the summer. we have filled the munitions gap so ukrainians won't run out of ammunition as they confront the russian aggressors. president biden and president zelenskyy will also be able to talk about the other dimensions of the strategy to ensure that russia fails in this war and ukraine prevails. >> jake, it's a good time on the 75th anniversary to perhaps remind people, especially given the last five or six years where you had the previous president who questioned why we were even in nato, why we were spending money, why europeans weren't spending more money, the value of this alliance. why it was formed to begin with. what it has provided over the 75

years, and why you believe it is important going forward. >> well, just think about what happened before nato existed. there were two world wars in europe. two wars in which the united states was forced to enter, and thousands and thousands of young american men and women died, gave their lives to protect peace in europe so we could have peace here in the united states. since nato has been founded, we have been able to protect our european allies. we have been able to maintain stability in europe, and the united states hasn't had to enter a war in europe with american forces fighting and dying in that time period. that was not inevitable. that was the result of the strongest defensive alliance the world has ever known. it is a massive success, and it has enabled the united states to enjoy significant peace, stability, and prosperity behind nato's shield. but we've got to renew it every generation, every year. that takes a president like

president biden who galvanized this alliance and really unified it in the face of a russian onslaught in ukraine, and shown the world that when the united states stands with its allies, we are stronger, they are stronger, and the world is better off. >> jake, good morning. jonathan lemire. at this exact moment, though, as nato gathers to pledge support for ukraine, we see president minister modi of india, who the biden administration counts on as an important player in this rising power in this world, embracing vladimir putin, literally embracing him at the same time. what is your reaction to that and india's continued economic support of russia? >> well, look, we've made clear to every country in the world, including to india, that a bet on russia is a -- as a long-term bet is not good. russia is the junior partner to china, and they'd side with

china over india any day of the week. prime minister modi, of course, has profound concerns about the potential for chinese aggression against india, which we have seen in recent years. we'll keep making that case. countries like india have a historic relationship with russia, so none of this going to change dramatically overnight. this is playing the long game. it is making investments in democratic partners and allies around the world, including countries like india. we think that that will pay off as we go forward. >> all right. white house national security adviser jake sullivan, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> we appreciate it. >> take care. let's bring in former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, jeremy bash. >> jeremy bash, what message does america need to deliver to nato today? have they been effective in delivering their message not only to our european allies thus far but also to vladimir putin?

>> yeah, the message, as jake was saying, is america has its back. it is a strategic asset for the united states, and president biden strengthened it and is poll bolstering it. it's not just about europe. today, you'll see the indo-pacific. south korea and japan will join in nato. if we want to compete with china, take on china, and limit that partnership between china and russia, we're going to need to have key partners all over the world. this is in sharp contrast to donald trump's vision of nato. he has said, essentially, he wanted to pull out of the nato alliance. he has dissed our allies. he said putin can have whatever he wants, do whatever he wants. he has cast doubt on whether or not the united states would

support ukraine. i think this sent tremors and fears around the world. for anybody who wants to defend democracy, they are very concerned about a trump presidency. in fact, there's a lot of talk this week in washington about how to trump-proof the alliance. president biden is signaling that the united states is going to stand four square for democracy, for security, for the united states. >> jeremy, cia director burns is shuttling across the middle east, trying to arrange some sort of a cease-fire and hostage release in gaza. i'm wondering what you are hearing with regard to bibi netanyahu. is he a partner in this or an impediment to this? >> right now, what i'm hearing is that the israelis are supportive of the deal that's on the table. they have said that, essentially, the ball is in hamas' court. the biden administration has said that. let's not forget, there are eight americans still held hostage by hamas in gaza. this is an urgent matter for this administration. i think it's fair to say that the u.s.-israel partnership, mike, has actually been much

closer in recent weeks. you saw israel listened to the united states with respect to the rafa campaign and other dimensions of how this war is going. the military campaign for the idf is almost wrapped up, and it is now time to secure and finalize this deal. this ball is in hamas' court, and everyone is pressing. egyptians, qataris, pressing hamas to say yes. >> the trump administration told some of america's allies that if -- the former trump administration, if trump is elected, they'll limit intelligence sharing amongst allies and nato members. what would the implications be of that kind of limit? >> catastrophic, katty. we rely on our allies and partners for key human intelligence, an array of strategic capabilities. it is the way we protect our embassies, assets, personnel, bases, our interests, and our values. if partners pull back from intelligence sharing with the united states because they don't trust us, because they don't think we're going to have their

back, this is going to be a strategic detriment to the united states. it is something we are all very, very concerned about. >> all right. former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, jeremy bash, thank you very much for being on this morning. >> thank you, jeremy. you have donald trump and joe biden, two completely different views of the world. >> very different, yeah. >> you have donald trump who was hostile for so long to nato. >> still is. >> who embraced authoritarian thugs in north korea. you know, communists in north korea. communist leaders in china. vladimir putin who wishes his country was still the soviet union. and the least democratic and the most authoritarian leader in europe, viktor orban, who has actually bragged about the fact that he killed western democracy in hungary. >> think about this contrast as we talk about the campaigns.

as president biden hosts the nato summit in washington, former president donald trump will reportedly meet with hungarian prime minister viktor orban in florida today. >> what a thug. >> it comes less than a week after orban met with russian president vladimir putin in moscow and visited with chinese leader xi jinping in china. >> really, katty kay, that's the picture. i mean, that is the picture. donald trump throughout his first term hated democratically elected leaders. whether it was britain's democratically elected theresa may, germany's democratically elected leader angela merkel, whether it was france's democratically elected leader macron. who did he love? well, he talked about his love letters to north korea's kim jong-un. he talked about how brilliant president xi was and how much respect he had for president xi

for being able to drop the hammer on billions of people. and, of course, vladimir putin, we know how much he loves and respects vladimir putin. and orban, a guy who has attacked an independent judiciary in hungary, a guy who has attacked the press, who has arrested leaders, who has bugged the phones of journalists, on and on and on. this is donald trump's hero in europe. it's who he says he wants to be like. >> yeah, i had a conversation with a senior european diplomat recently and asked him, what would be the benefit of donald trump being rere-elected? there was an awkward pause and a laugh, then silence. literally, this diplomat said, i can't think of anything. there is a realization that america first means europe last. except for this weird anomaly of viktor orban. when you look at what viktor

orban has done in hungary, particularly when it comes to the judiciary and for the press, freedom of the press and independence of the press, then you look at what donald trump is planning to do with schedule f and project 2025, i know he's distanced himself but you go through it and it is pretty clear, it actually looks strikingly similar to the kinds of restrictions on the judiciary in hungary and on the press, as well. it's the limiting of democratic freedom we're starting to see play out in the kind of playbook for a donald trump second term. >> for sure. all right. what a contrast. we'll be back in 90 seconds. george conway will be joining us. stay with us.

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♪♪ beautiful morning in washington as you get a live picture of the white house at 7:49 a.m. our next guests are on the leadership board for the society for the rule of law, a group of conservative and libertarian lawyers dedicated to the preservation of the rule of law in america. the organization has just released a new statement of principles, reaffirming that american citizens have a duty to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution. joining us now, the board's president, george conway. board member, retired judge, j. michael who served on the court of appeals and barbara comstock of virginia who is a board member as well. it's great to have you all on the show. george, i'll start with you.

this is the kind of thing that 7, 8, 10 years ago, this wouldn't have had to have been said out loud. we need some reminding these days. what's the idea here? >> the idea is we do need some reminding these days. it never occurred to me, that we would be sending a statement that said people should commit to the results of elections, follow court orders and they should be lawful, you know, support the constitution of the united states, but that's where we are, and that's what the threat that we face is, that people are basically willing to trash the country, trash the constitution because they support one person who's been convicted of many crimes, and we, you know, it's time for americans to take ownership of this and all of us to be able to just say no. we live under the world -- under the most amazing system of justice and democracy that has ever been created, and we're on

the way to ruining it and we need to take this back and put an end to it. >> so congressman, tell us a little more about the principles and what is the idea that the courts themselves are not abiding by these principles? >> as a former legislator, the legislators understand they have an important role in upholding their oaths and that it's not about just one man. so, you know, i come from the era of, you know, growing up with reagan and character counts and when character was king, character matters, and all of that and the rule of law just doesn't mean selectively say down on the border. it means when people breach the border of the capitol and are coming in screaming, hang mike pence or coming after nancy pelosi. you respect the rule of law.

those lines that have been crossed that are disappointing to see how not respecting the peaceful transition of power. those are things that legislators need to take back. republicans often talk about, you know, our branch of government and they've handed it over in so many ways. when donald trump says you can't pass a bill, they say we're not going to pass the bill anymore. they need to understand their role as part of this process. >> judge, we've grown up in a system where we've believed nobody is above the law. given the supreme court's recent decision on presidential immunity, is that still true? >> well, joe, as barbara and george are saying, we need to recommit ourselves to our nation, to our democracy, to the

constitution, to the rule of law, as abraham lincoln urged upon the nation many years ago during a similarly tumultuous time. under the rule of law, it's the heart and soul of america. it's that democracy and rule of law that have made america the envy of the world for almost 250 years, and that democracy and rule of law are teetering on a nice edge today for the first time in our history and hopefully the last. these are the issues of our times, and the reasons are obvious. the former president has not only corrupted america's democracy and made a mockery out of the rule of law over the past four years. he boasts every day that he will complete that corruption and mockery if he's elected in november. it's by his open defiance of

democracy in the rule of law that donald trump and now his republican party have succeeded in making this election a referendum on american democracy and the rule of law. they made this election a test of america's commitment to its democracy, constitution, and the rule of law. >> judge, one of the things we've learned over the last few years is that democracy is partly laws and partly norms and traditions, and if you have a president who's happy to blow through norms and traditions, that can put the democracy in peril. what could america do to perhaps shore up more of the legal side of the democratic process to protect itself against a president who doesn't respect the norms and traditions of democracy? >> well, the beginning is for americans, and the american voters in november to recommit themselves, to rededicate

themselves to the constitution, to america's democracy, and to the rule of law. i believe that the american people are not often or easily conned or due, and i'm willing to believe that in november, the american people will recommit themselves and our nation to america's democracy and rule of law. >> so george, obviously donald trump hovers over this document here, and there is a real chance that he could win again in november. let's get your thoughts about the situation currently facing president biden. what do you think he should do? what does he need to do today, or do you think the time has come for him to step aside? >> i can't tell you which way i would go on this, because frankly you change my mind every hour on the hour. there are risks for the democratic party and the nation in taking both courses of action. we don't know, you know, we can't run a test, run a patrol

experiment here. it's a very, very dicey thing and i'm not going to tell democrats what to do, but i have to say that this election has to end up being about donald trump, being about his threat to the rule of law, being about the fact that in contrast to -- you have an older man who is soft-spoken and sometimes might have an off night, and maybe not as speaking as loudly or as forcefully as his opponent. on one hand, you've got an old man who's babbling on about hannibal lector, and sharks, and executions at his rally, and there's this grading on a curve where that's considered normal, and i think the sooner the democrats get this resolved, they can bring -- the sooner they'll be able to bring the case against donald trump which is what needs to happen. >> and something like project -- oh, sorry. >> go ahead. >> i was going to say, barbara, unlike me who ran and won in a

very safe district, you ran in swing districts your entire political career, and so i'm curious, and feel free to talk about project 2025. i know you were about to start talking about that, but also what are you hearing on the ground in northern virginia, in your swing district about joe biden? >> well, i, you know, unfortunately i have been on vacation for the past two weeks and since this all happened, i have not heard that as directly so it made life a little better for me, but no. i think there's certainly alarm. something like project 2025 that i think the biden campaign and democrats have highlighted a lot more is important, certainly for the commonwealth of virginia. 50,000 employees being fired from professional government jobs, things like, you know, nih or, you know, at the state department or, you know, in the defense department, the cia where you have experts on whether it's on russia or china. you want that expertise. you don't want to fire people

just because they haven't, you know, signed up and been loyal to one guy. so project 2025 is very much something that i do hear candidates in virginia, democrats talking about. i do hear certainly federal employees which were about, you know, 25%, 30% of my former district. that's something they're highly concerned about, and i think only now, people are beginning to pay attention to that, and i should point out our, you know, you can sign onto our statement of principles which is very contrary to project 2025 that's online at the society for the rule of law. learn more certainly about project 2025. i would recommend to all voters. >> retired federal judge j. michael luttig, barbara comstock, and george conway, thank you all very much for

being on this morning. still ahead, a major fund-raiser for the democratic party is calling on president biden to leave the race. we'll tell you who sit, and we'll preview what could be a make or break day for the president's campaign as he's set to hold a news conference in washington. we're back in just two minutes. n washington we're back in just two minutes retirement, but i wish we had more cash. you think those two have any idea? that they can sell their life insurance policy for cash? so they're basically sitting on a goldmine? i don't think they have a clue. that's crazy! well, not everyone knows coventry's helped thousands of people sell their policies for cash. even term policies. i can't believe they're just sitting up there! sitting on all this cash. if you own a life insurance policy of $100,000 or more, you can sell all or part of it to coventry. even a term policy. for cash, or a combination of cash and coverage, with no future premiums. someone needs to tell them, that they're sitting on a goldmine, and you have no idea! hey, guys! you're sitting on a goldmine! come on, guys! do you hear

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while congressional dents -- democrats are conflicted, we got a powerful message from our democratic leader, george clooney. he wrote a "new york times" op-ed titled, i love joe biden, but we need a new nominee, adding we also need a money guy, a safe cracker, an acrobat, and brad pitt. it's the plot of "ocean's 24." amal's busy with human rights stuff and i got bored. >> you know you're in trouble when danny ocean is saying we can't pull this one off. >> george clooney, a highly

influential fund-raiser for the democrats is now calling for a new nominee. it comes amid more dissent on capitol hill among democrats. the first sitting u.s. senator and now nine house democrats have publicly said president biden should leave the race. today will be a huge test for the fate of the president's campaign. he will try to calm fears with a news conference in washington after spending the day with world leaders at the nato summit. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, july 11th. along with joe, willie and me, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at politico, jonathan lemire, and also with us, msnbc contributor mike barnicle and u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. also with us, congressional investigations reporter for "the washington post," jackie alemany

is with us. a lot going on. new cries for the president to step aside, and the debate, you can hear it across the country. >> you can hear it across the country. you can definitely hear it, mika, across the party. you know in the gospel of matthew, jesus said to religious leaders, every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. lincoln with the specter of a civil war rising over slavery quoted jesus, a house divided against itself cannot stand. lincoln said, i do not expect the union to be dissolved. i do not expect the house to fall, but i do expect it will cease to be divided. it will become all one thing or all the other. lincoln encouraged his party in 1858 to stand together once again. quote, two years ago, we did this under the siege of impulse,

of resistance to a common danger with every external circumstance against us. lincoln's words then are all too relevant to the democratic party this morning. this morning, we report to you that there's a deep rupture running throughout the democratic party, a split tearing at the party's very foundation, a divide that's only going to serve to elect a man who's repeatedly promised to be a dictator on day one. president biden is on one side of that democratic divide. we all know. biden supporters saved american democracy in 2020 by defeating a malignant force promising to undermine the constitution itself, make common cause with america's enemies, and refuse to accept any democratic election result that declared him defeated. president biden endured the

bloody aftermath of january the 6th riots. the stealing of nuclear secrets and sensitive war plans by trump, his calling for the execution of joint chiefs chairman and the hanging of his own vice president, his writing that the constitution should be terminated if that was required to overthrow election results. against that grim backdrop, mr. biden passed more bipartisan legislation than any president this century. he created more jobs than any president this century. he led america out of covid more strongly than any country on this planet. he's overseen the strongest dollar in half a century, and the strongest economic growth in the world. america's economy is the envy of the world, period. under biden, our military and alliances are stronger relative to the rest of the world than any time since world war ii. this, my friends, is not a

matter of debate unless you get your news from hucksters on tiktok or on a cable news channel that is allergic to the truth. despite what donald trump says, america is great. america is strong, and america is respected across the world. joe biden's leading a nato summit this week that with biden's leadership is now the strongest alliance in the world's history. now on the other side of this divide, are many of the most thoughtful democratic politicians and thought leaders. they are all saying privately, and they may soon say this publicly that joe biden cannot win this election. it is now almost a universal sentiment among the hundreds of democrats who have spoken out over the last 36 hours. many of whom have called me and voiced these very real concerns.

they say democrats' poll numbers are collapsing. fund-raising is drying up and any chance of saving the senate and house from trump rule over the next four years is vanishing before their eyes. two sides on this democratic decide with compelling arguments, but the window on saving american democracy is closing. joe biden has dug in. he's got the votes. he's got the delegates. it is his rightful nomination, but also dug in are those who revere the president, but cherish american democracy even more. for them, this is a zero sum game. that is why a handful of democrats that president biden greatly respects, nancy pelosi, ted kaufman, jim clyburn, chris dodd, john kerry, ron klain, and

hunter biden need to come together this weekend and talk about the consequences of this campaign and this candidacy on this country's future. democrats have to unite against the immediate threat before america's 240-year constitutional republic is no more. lincoln finished that 1858 speech telling his fellow party members, against strange, discordant, even hostile elements, we gathered from four winds and we've fought the battle through under the constant hot fire of a disciplined, proud, and pampered enemy. did we brave all then to falter now? now when that same enemy is wavering, and belligerent?

this result is not doubtful, lincoln said. we shall not fail if we stand firm. we shall not fail if we stand together. mika so said lincoln then, and so says a watchful and very worried nation now. >> yeah. it's such a great point. what we need more than anything at this moment and what we have noticed this week in covering this especially among the democrats is what we don't have is unity on this, and willie, it is -- it is taking a toll absolutely on the campaign. the poll numbers, and on conversations about biden's presidency and of course, anybody who's running against donald trump wants the focus to be on donald trump. >> yeah, and that is the concern of people of good faith on both sides of this argument. democrats who believe joe biden should get out of the race so they can do exactly what joe just described and beat donald trump, and those who believe he needs to stay in the race

because we need democrats to defeat donald trump. could faith arguments on both sides, but there is a gamble. push joe biden aside and put up a candidate. we don't know who yet, who could lose to donald trump as well. joe biden could stay in and lose as well. it is by definition, a gamble. he's not going anywhere despite what we heard yesterday, a major, major moment today though at 5:30 eastern time when president biden will hold a news conference since that poor debate performance last month. white house officials tell nbc news the president has been preparing throughout the week. expect to face intense scrutiny from the press. president biden plans to highlight the contrast between his policy positions and those from donald trump. officials are not specifying how many journalists they may call on today or how long the news conference will last. this comes as the first democratic senator is publicly calling for president biden to drop out of the race.

senator peter welch of vermont wrote an op-ed in "the post" urging the president to withdraw for the good of the country. he wrote, i understand why president biden wants to run. he saved us from donald trump once and wants to do it again but he needs to assess whether he is the best candidate to do so. in my view, he is not. for the good of the country, i'm calling on president biden to withdraw from the race. vermont loves joe biden, writes senator welch. president biden, vice president harris received a larger vote percentage here than in any other state. regular vermonters are worried he can't win this time. they're terrify of another trump presidency. senator welch continues, states that were once strongholds are now leaning republicans. these new shifts in new hampshire, nevada, arizona,and georgia must be taken seriously, not denied or ignored. the senator concludes writing, we have asked president biden to do so much for so many for so long. it has required unmatched selflessness and courage.

we need him to put us first as he has done before. i urge him to do it now. jonathan lemire, let's talk about that new conference at 5:30 today that comes at the end of a long day for president biden. he's got a bilateral meeting with president zelenskyy of ukraine among other meetings around that 75th anniversary of nato. what should we expect at about 5:30 tonight? >> you're right to note the schedule comes after a long day at nato yesterday that included an evening event. so it's been a pretty grueling week for the president. he also heads to michigan tomorrow for an important campaign rally, but all eyes will be on this news conference at 5:30 p.m. he -- the president has not done many of these extensive solo news conferences since the early days of his term. the first one he did which was i believe in march of 2021, went more than an hour, and after it did so, jill biden reprimanded staff saying it was too long.

normally we see him in smaller events with a foreign leader, and it's known as a two and two. each leader takes two questions from a pair of reporters but this will be the president alone. we don't know how many questions yet, but we have been promised it will be substantial. whether that means four questions, six, ten, we'll have to see, but it can't be overstated. this is a big moment. the biggest for this president since the debate, and it's -- let's separate his performance in office which all democrats continue to praise, versus his continued viability as a candidate and so many democrats the last 24 hours have said especially as the defections continue in the moment with speaker pelosi on our air on "morning joe" yesterday, they want to be reassured. they want to see a strong performance, and he'll be off the cuff. it'll be spontaneous. there will be no prompter. thest first time since the debate that went so poorly for him, and this is a chance to reassure democrats if he does well. what's the standard of doing well? that remains to be seen. what performance does he need to

deliver? at the moment, momentum suggest that is no matter how well he does tonight, it won't silence all democrats' worries, joe. >> right. >> it could certainly help. it could certainly help, and if he does poorly, i suspect the avalanche will only grow for calls to have him get out of the race. >> yeah. you know, mike, so much of the panicking is connected to polls, and as so many of the polls -- the internal polls that house and senate members have been seeing -- the private polls. not the media polls, but the private polls have been horrific. the public polls, the media polls have not been quite as bad. i'll give you an example as far as the horse race goes. this morning at 6:00 a.m. as we came on this show, "the washington post" and ipsos released a poll. now it showed 67% of americans think joe biden needs to get out of the race. he is too old to run for president.

there's a majority of democrats -- let me get the exact number. a majority of democrats, 56% of democrats believe that joe biden should get out of the race. so that is -- those are two things that -- those wanting joe biden out of the race will certainly point to. what will joe biden point to today, mike barnicle? the fact that this "washington post"/ipsos poll shows a dead heat. 46% to 46%. polls have been all over the place. a lot of the media polls have been bad, but this poll today will be one that joe biden will be holding up saying, i'm tied. show me -- i've heard that shows one poll that kamala is -- i've seen a ton of polls and neither

kamala nor gavin newsom, nor any of the other democrats are doing as well against joe biden -- against donald trump as joe biden is. i am not making the argument that he stays in the race or goes. i'm just saying here's an example of why there's a great divide. democrats who want him out will say, two out of three americans, mr. president, say you're too old to serve. you cannot bin joe biden will come back with the same poll saying, yeah? and i'm tied with donald trump. tied with donald trump even after the worst performance of my life. explain that, mike. >> well, yeah. i'll try. joe and mika, you both know joe biden very well, and you know in joe biden's mind there's a huge difference between someone trying to push him out and people seeking to give him the

option of leaving on his own. that's why what you mentioned at the top of the hour, the possibility of a group of people who he respects, knows, admires, and even loves, nancy pelosi, jim clyburn, john kerry, chris dodd, others like that, gathering with him and talking this out because it has to be talked out because right now he's been cannibalized by his own party with different rumors and various senators and congresspeople saying it's time for him to leave. his problem is now one of reality and one of perception, both married together. the perception is among a lot of people since the debate is he's just too old to serve another term, and the problem politically is he has a strong base of support oddly enough among senior citizens, always had had that support among senior citizens. anybody 70, 75 years old or older is going to look at joe

biden and think, knowing their own lives saying, jeez. it's possible he could die in office. that's a reality, and that's a reality that everyone has to deal with. he had a tough debate. he's talked about it, and jonathan is correct. this afternoon at 5:30, that press conference will be vital to his survival as a candidate, but it'll come down to a group of people who know and admire him, who he knows know and admire him, people he trusts sitting down in the white house and talking this through rather than having this political death by cannibalization every single day. >> you know, willie, we learned many things from the debate. we learned that joe biden obviously had had something go terribly wrong with him that night, and we still don't know what it was. as i said before, for those -- those carnival barkers that are

screaming for a media coverup, you saw the person that saw joe biden like that and bring him on our show, we'll be glad to interview him. i never saw anything that looked like that, but it was horrifying that night. i say that to also say that in -- even "the new york times"/siena poll, even after that horrific display, joe biden picked up independent voters. even after a divided and desolate democratic party torn at the seams while the trump campaign is talking about a landslide now. they are planning for a landslide. we have a "washington post"/ipsos poll coming out this morning that says two-thirds of americans consider joe biden too old to be president and yet he

is tied with donald trump, which of course, is an argument for both sides. biden can say, i'm tied with donald trump. the other side can say, yes. you're tied with donald trump despite the fact you couldn't complete a sentence throughout an entire 90-minute debate. so let's get somebody in there who can and just think how badly we will beat him. again, that debate will go on, but one thing that can't be debated is a majority of americans despise donald trump and find the thought of him being in the white house absolutely impossible to square with their vision of what a president should be. >> that's exactly right, and that's what i mean when i say these are two sides of good faith within the democratic party who want one thing, to make sure that donald trump does not return to the white house, and they have two different views about the best ways to prevent that from happening.

some believe it's to stay with joe biden. others believe in the unknown and they would like to see a plan is what i think is part of the problem. if joe biden steps aside, what is your plan? we haven't heard a definitive one which is handing it off to kamala harris which makes the most sense, and open it up with convention. still no signs, jackie alemany, that the president is stepping aside. he sent that letter and could not have been more clear on monday to congressional democrats. i'm not going anywhere. he made many of the point that is joe is saying this morning, which is the longer this goes on, the longer we fight this out in public, the more it helps donald trump. let's get together. let's fight this guy. let's beat this guy. what are you hearing on capitol hill right now? what we've heard is privately people are worried about joe biden. they're worried about his age. they made him think he needs to step aside, but they hesitate to say it publicly. nancy pelosi on this very show yesterday morning, of course, with some innuendo saying he needs to make a decision soon,

talking about president biden to which the biden campaign says he did make a decision. he sent that letter on monday. he's saying in. so where is that democratic caucus this morning? >> yeah, willie. that letter clearly wasn't clear enough for people like former speaker nancy pelosi who made big news, subtle news, but big news. a significant reframing of the conversation on the show yesterday, and her interview really sent shock waves through the halls of congress, especially, you know, amongst democratic aides and staffers who were all already on edge, you know, there was this feeling last week when members are at home and were really frustrated and felt like there was going to be some momentum coming back into washington, d.c. to maybe have some influence, and maybe try to convince biden to potentially at least be open to the discussion of stepping aside. that conversation quieted early

in the week. then yesterday pelosi sort of reopened the door there, and it look like she's kind of paving the way for a potential exit ramp or at least providing cover for members, for these frontliners, the vulnerable democrats that are seeing the polling we're all talking about, and perhaps, you know, polling that we're not seeing, internal polling that is showing some really damning results for them. one person put it to me, a senior house aide, we have no path to take back the house if biden remains at the top of the ticket, and i think that's why you're now seeing the former speaker speak out the way that she did again, to try to reframe this conversation. she's an institutionalist. she's someone who lives and dies by the house. at the end of the day, that is her priority. democrats need four seats to recapture the majority. there is a lot of, you know, happy talk publicly about getting behind biden and ultimately having hakeem jeffries be the speaker of the house in the democratic majority next year, but i think the

writing's on the wall for an increasing amount of members that that's not going to happen if biden stays at the top of the ticket. that one of the big problems though, willie, is exactly what you just referenced, the lack of a contingency plan, and i think that's why we're not seeing more members come forward right now. that is the sort of back half of this conversation. >> yeah. >> that is troubling a lot of members, the lack of logistical prowess, a fear about some measures around ballot concerns in states if biden were to come off the ticket and needed to be replaced, could that logistically be done in a way or would there have to be litigation, legal fights like we've seen in ohio, and consensus around that candidate? a lot of donors are hearing they want an open process and they're not necessarily rallying behind kamala harris. coming up, a reminder of just how unhinged donald trump was at a rally this week. a bizarre spectacle that's been overshadowed by the democrats'

infighting next on "morning joe." next on "morning joe. ah, these bills are crazy. she has no idea she's sitting on a goldmine. well she doesn't know that if she owns a life insurance policy of $100,000

or more she can sell all or part of it to coventry for cash. even a term policy. even a term policy? even a term policy! find out if you're sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. after staying out of the public eye for days to let the democratic infighting play out, donald trump returned to the campaign trail on tuesday night holding a campaign rally in florida. the former president rejoiced at how much the political landscape had changed since his debate against joe biden and yet, as

"the new york times" points out, at various points in his 90-minute performance, mr. trump sounded eye-wateringly cruel. he gleefully asserted that joe biden had understood gone many botched facelifts and has really bad hair. >> wait. first of all, wait. >> i have been there. >> hold on. hold on. hold on. he's talking about facelifts? >> mm-hmm. >> and really bad hair? >> mm-hmm. >> wait. is this the whole john heilemann, everything he says is projection or confession? >> the facelift thing, okay. he went on about how revolting mr. biden looked. i want to make that clear. he said, mr. biden. >> yeah. >> in a bathing suit. >> in a bathing suit. >> he said mr. biden looked revolting in a bathing suit. >> again, confession, projection, like, we -- thank god we haven't seen him in a

bathing suit. >> there were photos of biden sitting shirtless in a beach chair. you know, those chairs are meant for children and old people and he can't even lift them. he called chris christie, the former governor of new jersey, a fat pig. >> again, a mirror. >> he suggested that nancy pelosi might actually be deterioratedd faster than mr. biden. she's not doing too well he said buoyantly. he talked about everything of his grandchildren to defraud the american public that was being woven by a shadowy establishment that hated them and while calling for the death penalty for drug dealers, he did a histrionically sing song impression of a mother watching them hopelessly dying in their

arms screaming, what can i do? help me, god. what can i do? >> mocking a mother who is holding a dying child in their arms and we hear, this is the new and improved -- i have been hearing it for the past week now. this is the new and improved donald trump. he's positive. >> this is to your point. >> he's happy. he's not the old donald trump. he's really been liberated, and there we have donald trump calling people fat pigs, donald trump mocking others, donald trump mocking a mother holding her dying child. >> is he mentally fit? >> it doesn't sound like the new and improved donald that i swear -- it's all you hear from trump people. it's changed. it's not even that. here he is. he's actually taking great joy in a mother's child dying in her arms. >> so this is the donald trump

that his campaign does not want particularly out there in public. it's not the donald trump who showed up to that debate. that was the more disciplined donald trump, and as we have always said, that doesn't last very long with the former president, and there he is out there again, and the frustration for the democrats is that when they see donald trump performing like he did in that rally in florida, it seems to them clear that they should be ahead in the polls, that they should be able to beat donald trump easily, and yet the ipsos poll shows they're tied. you can play that one eat way. like you, joe, i have been hearing from democrats on the hill, democrats in the white house, from democrats who are close to joe biden, and there is no joy in this. there is nobody there who is celebrating the situation that they find themselves in as one member of congress said to me, all of us really love joe biden and support him, wish that we could say to him, it's okay to step aside, and shore up your legacy and protect your legacy,

and the two things that have been mentioned on the program this morning are the internal polls that one member of congress said to me, show cataclysmic results for democrats in the house in 2024, in november such that they wouldn't even be able to perform well in 2026 because they would lose so many seats this november, and the other thing is the money. george clooney's article, and we know that george clooney is close to barack obama. his op-ed did nothing to reassure democrats that the financing would be there. so the pressure -- >> right. >> as we have been hearing has been building over the last 24 hours in a different way. coming up, the chairman of the dnc j.b. harrison is standing by. we'll weigh in on the party's prospects up and down the ballot. that conversation just ahead on "morning joe." that conversation just ahead on "morning joe." this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers.

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the abortion issue is much simplified right now because i brought it out, you know, by getting rid of roe v. wade, that was an incredible thing because after 52 years and everybody wanted this. democrats, republicans, and all legal scholars wanted it. >> you know, that's just not true. you know, again, if you get your news, i would love the hear what the follow-up to that was because i know if you get your news from liars on tiktok or carnival barkers on other cable news networks, then you may believe that. you also may believe that the moon's made of cheese i suppose if they tell you that enough, but the fact is an overwhelming number of americans oppose the overturning of roe v. wade. i've got the say, an overwhelming number of legal scholars that i've read disagree with the overturning of roe v. wade, and so for donald trump to

say, everybody was for it and this and that and the other, you know, then he goes around bragging about getting rid of the, terminating roe v. wade and he tries to back off. it's a total mess. donald trump said he terminated roe v. wade. he was proud of it. he's said that time and time again despite the fact that 60%, 65%, 70% of americans were against the overturning of roe v. wade and have been for quite some time. the overturning of a right that women had for just about 50 years. >> yeah. and what donald trump has done is made pregnancy a harrowing experience, denied abortion health care to women who need it, and is causing a risk to their lives and to babies as well. so what you just heard was donald trump speaking yesterday on the fox news radio program the brian killmead show.

they seized on those comments highlighting the damage he has done on the issue. >> yeah, willie. it's very interesting. he can't seem to get this abortion issue right. i mean, he did what he did, and one day he'll talk about terminating roe v. wade, and it was the greatest thing ever. everybody was for it. that's the big lie. it's the fact that calls chaos for the republican polls and the next day he says he'll soften the language in the republican party platform like that's going to do anything, and then he'll get angry and he'll blame pro-life voters for costing republicans the 2022 election for costing him the 2020 -- i mean, it's just -- again, it's just a big mess which means americans will go to the default which is donald trump terminated roe v. wade just like he said. >> well, that's objectively

true. he appointed three supreme court justices. he owns it and said it's what he wanted. remember, chris matthews asked him if women who get abortions should be punished and he said, it's all on tape. it's all on the record. he got his supreme court justices and here we are. there's no running from, that but he knows as you say it's bad politically. he's trying to back away from it which is no easy task given the fact that he had such a hand in the overturning of wade. let's bring to the conversation the chairman of the democratic national committee, jaime harrison. mr. harrison, great to have you back on the show. we can talk about abortion in just a moment, but obviously you're hearing all the talk. you're hearing from democrats, friends of yours, colleagues, members up on capitol hill who are worried about president biden, worried about the debate. we'll be watching closely, this press conference today. is there any doubt in your mind that president biden should be the democratic nominee for president? >> no doubt whatsoever, willie.

listen. 14 million people in 50 states in our five territories in d.c. and our democrats abroad went to the polls, did caucuses, and voted for joe biden to be our nominee. so without any hesitation, equivocation, i am saying joe biden who has over 90% of the delegates to the dnc convention, is the nominee for our party, and so folks, it's time to follow the lead of the cvc. it's time to follow the lead and of labor yesterday. it's time to lock your knees and stiffen your spines and get on board to support this president. if you're spending more of your time on tv talking about joe biden than talking about donald trump and project 2025, folks, you got to do a course correction. we've got to focus on the greatest threat to american democracy that we have ever seen, and that is in donald trump, a man who ripped away

women's right to control their own bodies for the first time in 50 years. the daughters who are growing up now have less rights than their mothers and grand mothers. we cannot allow that to continue and to happen, and the focus has to be on beating donald trump, and joe biden has done it before and he can do it again. coming up, an update from nato and what our next guest calls the five stages of biden grief. julia ioffe says they're in the acceptance stage prepping for donald trump to be back in the white house. that's next on "morning joe." te white house. that's next on "morning joe. kids love summer break, but parents? well... care.com makes it easy to find background checked childcare that fits your summer schedule. from long term to short notice. give yourself a break this summer. go to care.com now. centrum! it's scientifically formulated to help you take charge of your health.

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running mate. coming you, for kamala harris, the challenge is getting ready without getting ready. peter baker joins us with his latest reporting on the vice president's tricky position when "morning joe" comes right back. e "morning joe" comes right back

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i didn't want to stop by and make one thing very clear. i may be a little grayer than i was eight years ago, but this is what a feminist looks like. [ cheers and applause ] >> that was then president barack obama proudly declaring himself a feminist, the first sitting president to do so at a white house event in 2016. he later wrote an essay for "glamour" explaining why feminism is just as important for men as it is for women. in fact, calling out sexism in

the workplace isn't just the right thing to do, it can also help boost men's professional careers, according to a new study in "psychology of women quarterly." with us is maggie mcgrath and huma abedin, vice chair of the portion and know your value 30/50 summit. maggie, the study which "forbes women" has been covering, lay out the findings for us. >> we know from studies done in this post me too environment say they don't always feel comfortable pointing out microaggressions or pointing out biased behavior. being a bystander is not a neutral act. in fact, the study author told

us that when a person enabled a colleague's sexist attitudes, other people assumed this person was sexist as well. what's interesting is that the backlash for not standing up was worse for men than women. on the flip side, the reputational benefit for men who interviewed in moments of sexism at work was greater than for their female counterparts. if men want to boost the reputations at work they should make it clear they will not tolerate sexist behavior, biased behavior and if they do that, it will improve women's work experiences. >> what's the take-away for more men to challenge what they see

happens right in front of femme if there is sexism in their organizations? >> the study shows reality is far apart from fact. the article referenced a catalyst report saying 86% of men want to call out sexism in the workplace, but only 31% feel confident enough to do it. as maggie said, the reputational harm is worse, staying silent is not safe and men who reject this notion of prejudice are viewed more favorably. ultimately it's about leadership and how are we creating environments in the workplace

for not only men but women to advance in their career. >> you're kind of stuck in the middle here where you don't say something and you're kind of complicit, but you don't want to say something to your boss. >> i tell this story about my mother going to the world conference on women 30 years ago. a woman confronted my mother and said it's just as important for my son to know the rights we're entitled to as it is my

daughter. it's not just important to have a seat at the table, but this is about speaking up, taking action and supporting more women with your actions and words combined. >> absolutely. i welcome all male guests to the 30/50 summit, by the way. maggie, we're less than three weeks away from releasing our fourth annual 50 over 50 list. what can you tell us? >> we are all so excited to launch this package on august 1st. some magazine pages are going to print as we speak. we're all gearing up for it. there are so many stories of women who had so much to teach

us about perseverance and creativity and how much you can accomplish over the age of 50. >> it's so good. i can't wait. thank you both very much. up next, just days after joe biden's debate debacle two weeks ago, the "new york times" editorial board called on him to bow out of the presidential race. this morning, the board is declaring donald trump unfit to leave. g donald trump unfit to leave.

asked about biden's candidacy, he said it's up to the president tonight if he's going to run. he talked to president biden and he said, i'm running. pelosi said, it's completely up

to you. to which biden responded, i know it is, i'm running. plois pelosi said i understand that and i have chosen my option. when you're ready to share that option, i'm ready to defeat that shared option. biden said, i've already shared it. pelosi said it's not what i want, it's what you want. that's to drop out. [ laughter ] >> that's really funny. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:00 a.m. in the west, 9:00 a.m. in the east. >> that's not actually that far from what's going on right now. president biden put out a very explicit letter to democrats on monday, i'm not going anywhere

and the more we fight, the better it is for donald trump, to which the former speaker said, whatever he decides, he should decide very soon, to which he responded, i did, it's in the letter. >> so they need to talk and he needs to decide very soon. >> yes. pelosi was sitting next to the opposition leader of belarus, who was warning americans what another trump term could look like. >> hearing this morning the hill is still in disruption mode. they are not -- they are not following the president's lead right now. i expect that especially post nato things are going to get very disruptive on friday and

saturday. >> i think this weekend could be decisive, if not instructive about where this goes from here. there's a lot of uneasiness for joe biden, but there's no plan for what comes next. others say, kamala harris, let's hand it off to her. others say, i'm not so sure. there needs to be in the feeling of many democrats some moment of unity here that we're not seeing certainly. a lot of them are going to be watching this press conference at 5:30. president biden is going to hold a solo news conference in washington, a big moment. peter alexander. >> reporter: president biden preparing for perhaps the biggest day of his presidency, after a night of pageantry with his nato allies.

>> we continue to grow stronger and closer in all the years ahead. >> the first senate democrat to publicly call for president biden to step aside, vermont's peter welsh, urging him to withdraw for the good of the country. chuck schumer, one of the president's closest allies, is privately signaling to donors that he's open to a democratic presidential ticket without president biden, citing three people familiar with the matter. the majority leader later writing, as i have made clear publicly and privately, i support president biden. earlier former house speaker nancy pelosi causing waves in washington. >> it's up to the president to decide if he is going to run. we're all encouraging him to make that decision, because time is running short. >> her comments raising eyebrows, because the president has repeatedly said he has made his decision. >> i'm staying in the race.

>> other key allies also not saying president biden's decision is final. >> is the decision final? >> i have no idea. ask him. >> even as he maintains support from key corners of his support, another big blow to the president yesterday, hollywood heavyweight george clooney, a democratic donor, says the party needs a new nominee just days after holding a star-studded fundraiser for him. he said the joe biden i saw weeks ago wasn't the joe biden of 2010. he wasn't even the joe biden of 2020. he was the same man we all witnessed at the debate. adding he loves president biden, but we are not going to win in november with this president.

>> guys, this press conference at 5:30 tonight will be kind of a rorschach test for people. if he stumbled or pauses or whatever it is, there are those who say he's got to move forward. they will say he is strong, he took the criticism and it is clear he is not getting out of the race. it's important, but i don't know how many minds it will change. >> jonathan lemire is still with us. and joining the conversation we have amy walter, member of the "new york times" editorial board mara gay and peter baker join us this morning. the latest poll shows two-thirds of u.s. adults want president biden to step aside and let someone else run.

56% of democrats say president biden should end his candidacy, while 42% say he should continue to seek reelection. however, that same poll finds biden and former president donald trump in a dead heat, with both candidates receiving 46% support nationally among registered voters. >> and the "washington post" said this may be an outlier just like a bloomberg poll over the weekend that showed swing states close. maybe an outlier, who knows? but if enough polls come in this direction, they've got to stop being called outliers. even though house members are freaking out saying democrats are going to lose the house and senate if joe biden stays on the

ticket. i want to ask you if you've seen any more evidence that democrats have a good plan b, other than saying for the past year michelle obama should run. she ain't running. she doesn't like politics. she didn't like it before. she certainly doesn't like it now. and kamala harris, i know there was one poll that showed she did better than joe biden, but every other poll i show says she does worse, gavin newsom does worse and all of the other democrats do. do you see a plan b for democrats if they push joe biden aside? >> i think you're right that the only plan b really has to be the vice president. which is the bigger risk, sticking with joe biden?

it's not just where he sits in the polls today, it's that you can't unring the bell from the debate. whether we have another debate or not, those clips and the clips of every single democrat who has come onto this show or other shows talking about the need for the president to step down will be part of the campaign for the next four months. with harris, it seems to me you start with kind of a pre-debate biden, which is she's not doing better since the debate, but not worse either. you say, okay, who has the better chance of trying to make this contest more about a referendum on trump versus a referendum on biden and the administration? and in that case, you could make the argument -- i'm not necessarily saying this is the way to go -- but that what

harris' opportunity is, is to try to turn the page away from the incessant focus on one person, and that person being joe biden. >> willie, it looks like inflation is lower than most economists expected. that's fascinating. today's "washington post" poll, the bloomberg poll this past weekend, inflation poll is .1% in june. i think lower rates are probably coming in early fall. again, the fact that there are even polls that show this race is a dead heat after joe biden's debate performance a couple of thursday's ago speaks to a very hard feeling for donald trump.

>> the "washington post" poll this morning shows the race tied at 46-46. it also shows joe biden's approval rating is the same as april. it doesn't feel like the debate has all the impact. his approval rating is where it was. 92% of democrats in this poll say if biden is the nominee, yes, we will support him because we think it's that important to defeat donald trump. amy, we're talking nationally here and we know the polls the cook political report came out yesterday or some of the moves made in the direction of donald trump. arizona and nevada moved from toss-ups to lean r.

and nebraska moved from likely d to lean d. this is all coming in the wake of the debate. this is kind of where the action is, obviously throwing in those american states and pennsylvania as well. what do you read into this? >> before the debate, it was pretty clear that biden had work to make up his deficit in the polls, especially in those three states we moved from toss-up to lean. he was trailing outside the margin of error in those three states. but it was also clear that the race had not yet really engaged. this debate last week was an opportunity for the race to engage. and whether or not biden has dropped significantly or whether he's staying in place isn't good enough in those three states.

biden has to be on the offense in those places, and right now he's completely on the defense. the race for the electoral college now goes through those three midwestern battleground states. the sunbelt states are going to be tougher, but wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania are the ball game. it shows how narrow that pathway is now for biden and it's a bider path for trump. if he wins pennsylvania -- donald trump just needs to win pennsylvania. it's going to be very difficult for biden to win there. we've had two presidential elections where the winner was decided by less than a point.

79,000 votes in three states in 2016, 40,000 votes in 2020. so it doesn't take much movement to go from losing by a point to winning by a point. that right there is i think where we sit, which is biden down by a little bit, and he has to tell the party how he thinks he's going to get out from under the deficit he's been sitting in. >> jonathan lemire, an eagle-eyed viewer who also happens to be a "washington post" employee, who also happens to be a member of the "morning joe" family writes in. gene robinson said in the story

about the post, it does show harris doing a couple of points better than biden against trump. totally speculative, of course, and says nothing about whether she could win pennsylvania, but that is good to know. that is worth noting that the vice president does better in this "washington post" poll than joe biden. >> and there have been a few polls like that of late. the vice president has had a bit of an uptick in her popularity as so many questions face her boss at this moment. peter baker, it has been a couple of weeks and we've covered at great length -- in public and private it's been different for democrats. there's a lot of private anxiety. there's also growing frustration among the biden campaign. they have given their answer.

the president has said he is running. could that change? of course, but he has been firm he is running. the white house is telling us the news conference is being moved back an hour to 6:30 p.m. because of the nato schedule. how can they change this conversation? >> it's a great question, because nobody is taking his answer seriously. nobody is saying, aha, that's the end of the story. the pelosi comments yesterday on "morning joe" were important, since she obviously doesn't accept it either. there are concerns chuck schumer and some of the other congressional leaders still think it's an open question. they want to wait until after nato so he doesn't get embarrassed on the world stage. if his answer is as strong post nato as it was pre nato, maybe that begins to change some

democratic minds. maybe that gives him a little bit of a breather from some of the pressure. the problem is, even if he gets through these next few days, he's got 3 1/2 months -- the democrats do -- of every day people will be watching anything and everything he says. another day could be a debate-like moment where people say, look at this, we can't have this. he's going to be an uncertain candidate really all the way to election day, i think, at this point. >> democrats who are worried about joe biden and democrats who support joe biden through and through, they have the same goal, which is to prevent donald trump from becoming president of the united states. so they're having this conversation, this discussion in good faith and it's fair and all is fair game and the questions about the president are all legitimate. how do you see this shaking out, though, when you have the president of the united states

in no uncertain terms saying i'm staying in the race, guys, and apparently the leadership of congress not taking his word for it? >> everybody i've spoken to is looking for some clear direction, some moment of unity at which they can say for certain, okay, we accept joe biden will for sure be the nominee, we'll do what we need to do, or the alternative, whatever that is, a lot of folks i talk to are willing to roll with that too. they just want everybody to come together on the same page and turn their attention to donald trump. the frustration and the real concern i have is, as we look at these poll numbers, poll after poll is showing, of course, because of the extremism of donald trump and how dangerous he is, most americans do know that, so there is a real ceiling

to his support. this will come down to these swing states especially in the midwest and pennsylvania. we're going to see the coalition of voters who are independent and republican who just want steady leadership and respect american democracy along with the motivation and excitement and enthusiasm of democrats, young voters, minorities, who really don't want the vision for the country that donald trump does, but they're feeling ignored by the democratic party. they're feeling like the democratic party has not listened to them when they said they wanted someone new, someone younger with a fresh vision, someone who understood, yes, inflation is improved, but they can't afford housing, they're not doing as well as their parents are. we need to make sure those americans are motivated to head to the polls against donald trump. i think that's the biggest case for actually seeing someone else on that ticket, is to say we hear you and to get momentum

going and some excitement and enthusiasm and confidence that that person is going to be able to prosecute the case against trump and also serve all four years in office with fitness. >> the "new york times" editorial board is out this morning with a 5,000 word essay entitled donald trump is unfit to lead. here's just a snippet of what the times editorial board writes about the former president. in instead of a cogent plan for america's future, donald trump is motivated by using the levers of government. he is unfit to lead. the stakes of the presidency demand a person who has essential qualities and values

to earn our trust. and on each one donald trump fails. when someone fails so many foundational tests, you don't give him the most important job in the world. >> and so many americans would agree with that. did the times board feel the necessity to run this after saying a couple of times joe biden shouldn't run for president? >> this has been in the works for far longer than many readers may think. this has been in the works for months, since long before the debate performance that was heard around the world. of course, this is consistent with not only the behavior we've seen from the former president, but from what this board has said about donald trump for years. we, in fact, have repeated that in recent weeks. the point we want to make here

is this election is not about policy. this is about two vastly different visions for america, one that is committed to multiracial democracy, to pluralism, to human rights, to well-being and reproductive freedom and things most americans say consistently that they want and are committed to. and the other vision for america, which is about retribution and authoritarianism and is hateful, racist and extremely closed minded, we don't believe that's the direction americans want to go in. we are urging american voters to listen to donald trump's words and to take him seriously and understand that this second presidency could be even more dangerous than the last. of course, we lost a million americans to the covid virus and a lot of other horrific events took place under donald trump's presidency, his calling folks at

charlottesville who were nazis fine people. i would urge people to read the editorial. this is a moment of alarm not just for people who are progressives or democrats, but for anyone who still wants to see this country remain a democracy. >> that piece is up now at thenewyorktimes.com. once -- we want to shake the country again and say, guys, this is what we're up against. for the first time since the debate donald trump reemerged from the golf course and held a rally in florida and the country could see the ugliness, the insults, the lies, all of the things he does when he gets up on stage during a rally and say,

oh right, that's the guy, that's the comparison to joe biden. that's where the white house hopes this conversation will go. >> for viewers who may not understand exactly how it works, the editorial section is separate from our news section. on the news side, we don't take positions one way or the other. from a news side it's clear that this whole debate about biden is actually a debate about trump. the crushing need on the part of democrats to beat donald trump. broadly speaking, he is popular within his party. the question is whether or not he can prevent what they see as an existential threat from returning to office.

that is driving this conversation even more than his capacity to do the job. the separate question is whether he can be effective for four years. that's subordinate to the question of whether or not he can beat donald trump as far as many democrats in washington are concerned. >> peter baker and mara gay, thank you both very much for being on this morning. and coming up, as the nato summit continues in washington, our next guest says world leaders are bracing for donald trump's return to the white house. we'll dive into how europeans are trying to trump-proof the alliance. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ♪♪

boy, is that a beautiful picture from our friends at kusa in denver at 7:30 in the

morning. the biden/harris campaign is out with a new ad hitting donald trump on his actions and comments surrounding russian president vladimir putin and the war in ukraine. >> our safety is built on agreements like nato, which has protected us for 75 years. and our security is based on an understanding that we never give comfort to dictators. so why does donald trump keep siding with putin? he said he'd walk away from nato and gave putin a green light to attack whoever he wants. >> i would encourage them to do whatever the hell they want. >> he sold out ukraine to empower putin. he attacks american intelligence and law enforcement and sides with putin instead because this is who donald trump is, a lap dog for a dictator who blames america first. the united states must never be like putin's russia. we don't empower dictators. we don't undermine freedom. >> my message to president putin

is simple, we will not walk away. we will not bow down! >> i'm joe biden and i approve this message. >> a new ad this morning from the biden/harris campaign. meanwhile, some members of nato are preparing for the possibility of joe biden losing in november and looking to, quote, trump-proof nato in case he decides to withdraw the united states if reelected. an issue likely to be endorsed at the summit is nato taking more responsibility for coordinating training and military and financial assistance for ukraine's forces instead of the united states. joining us now, julia yaffy. your piece is entitled "five stages of biden grief." the victory took the european

and nato establishmented by surprise in 2016, but that won't be the case this time. one senior defense official in town for the summit told me, two months ago i thought joe biden would probably win. but now i don't think he's in good enough position to do a real, full-time campaign. this time they're not freaking out about it. we can't control who wins, the official said, but we'll work with what we have. those trump-proofing plans seem to have served another function, calming jittery nerves in brussels and making them feel prepared for when trump inevitably pushes them off a cliff. obviously the president has a bilateral meeting with president zelenskyy this afternoon before the president's press conference. what else are you hearing from officials in town about what may

be over the horizon for that 75-year-old alliance? >> what i'm hearing is that nato officials are basically prepared for or preparing for biden to lose the election. all that trump proofing that has been going on for a year or two now they are preparing to put into place. excuse me. >> bless you. >> thank you. >> the other thing is that some of them are talking themselves into the idea that maybe it won't be so bad if trump wins. maybe he won't pull out of the alliance. maybe they can appease him if they spend more on their defense budgets. maybe he won't abandon ukraine completely, because that would be a big loss for him, and trump, as we know, does not like losing, he likes winning. so there's a lot of talk going onto kind of make themselves feel better so that after the

debate, a lot of nato officials that i've spoken to are basically committed that it's a done deal that trump is going to become president in november. >> i was in brussels in 2018 when he nearly pulled the u.s. out of the alliance then. that was just a few days before his appearance with vladimir putin in helsinki. the trump team has said they're going to share less information with allies were trump to win. there has to be pure panic. >> i don't think they're panicked anymore. i think they were panicked in 2017 and 2018. everybody thought hillary clinton was going to win. i think trump himself thought hillary was going to win. they were not prepared. this time they know.

he's been telegraphing it pretty clearly. to all the people who say take him seriously and not literally, i think nato officials are taking him seriously and literally. they're hoping they can work around the edges and get him to do not as much damage. i do remember that summit in 2018 and running into a member of the russian delegation on the sidelines. i asked him what they thought about trump and what he was doing. he said, he's a wrecking ball, but he's our wrecking ball. >> that has remained accurate. >> that has remained accurate and probably will remain accurate into the future. we were talking about reports coming out that trip would pull back even on intelligence sharing with nato allies, which is mind stilling, right? he completely doesn't understand what alliances are for. if there's not money being exchanged or he's not somehow

personally benefitting from it. >> one of the other major plots at the nato summit is the ukraine conflict. behind the scenes, though, how do nato members think that conflict is going to end? there seems to have been some real differences of opinion as to how and win fighting will eventually stop. >> i've heard different versions. i've heard that russia will collapse at a certain point, that it can't spend at this level forever. i've heard versions where we'll end up at the negotiating people. even if trump wins and he tries to force ukraine to the negotiating table, we've heard this mythical trump plan going around, which turns out not to be much of a plan at all. trump says to ukraine, if you don't go to the negotiating table with russia, we will cut off all military aid, and if

russia doesn't come to the table we'll flood ukraine with weapons. ukraine won't go to the table. they'll just fight into the end. and that will be a really horrific scenario. >> everyone in the world is waiting to see what's going to happen in november. coming up, a look into an elite unit within the perg whose -- pentagon who launched unit x. that's next on "morning joe." het x. that's next on "morning joe. (♪♪) with wet amd, i worry i'm not only losing my sight, but my time to enjoy it.

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at the nato summit yesterday, american and european officials announced ukraine will begin receiving american-made f-16 fighter planes. while the conventional jets have been long sought after by ukraine, unconventional military

technology was also provided to ukraine. joining us now unit x which has fostered collaboration between silicon valley and the united states government. great to have you both with us. let's start at the beginning about how this idea came to be. it was during the obama administration in 2015 under defense secretary ash carter. raj, what was the initial idea? was it that the pentagon couldn't or was not keeping up with the fast pace of technology that was happening out west and decided it might be mutually beneficial? >> secretary carter was a real visionary. he saw that technologies being

pioneered in the commercial world, artificial intelligence, drones, cyber security were going to play a decisive role in determining and winning war. he created this unit to try to bring back the valley and the pentagon's relationships together. you really saw there were almost two types of ways we built technology and bought it, the commercial way and the military way. i personally got a glimpse of that in my first tour of combat in 2006 where i was flying f-16 and couldn't tell whether i was on the border of iraq or iran. >> we all have maps in our cars that show exactly where we are at any begin time and you couldn't figure out which country you were in. silicon valley is a broad catch-all. who are we talking about here?

who did the pentagon go to at the inception of this program and say we'd like to share technology? >> there's a whole new section of startups producing everything from drones to, autonomous vehicles to a whole range of technology coming out of silicon valley, even spy satellites. >> you may not be able to disclose the companies you worked with, but what kind of companies? are we talking about chip makers? >> many of the technologies these companies produce are actually today on the battlefield in ukraine.

there are incredibly dramatic incidents that tell us war is changing. last month the ukrainians had to pull back from the front lines all 31 of the abrams battle tanks that the u.s. provided the ukrainian military. this is the most advanced tank in the world in the u.s. arsenal and the arsenals of adversaries. a quarter of them were destroyed by russian kamikaze drones. that tells me that a century of mechanized warfare is coming to a close, a very dramatic shift. >> raj, what was the buy-in then for silicon valley? there's definitely been in the past some distrust between some of these tech companies and the pentagon. what were those relationships like? >> when we first took on this task, it was a really tough time. from the secretary of defense carter came and visited, he was the first sitting secretary to

come to that region in 20 years. this was just in the wake of the edward snowden revelations about espionage. i think what was most difficult is it's just really hard to do business with the government. the average contract would take 18 to 24 months to sell something to the government. if you're a young startup, that timeline doesn't work. so we have to rebuild trust to say can we find companies, put them under contract and accelerate that innovation into the hands of the war fighter? i think that's what that unit was successful in going. now we fast forward ten years later and there's a boom in entrepreneurs that want to build companies around national security and help protect democracies against authoritarianism. >> you mentioned the ukraine war being the first drone war, i believe you said.

what are some other advancements that could be slightly down the road for military technology that could further change how we think about modern warfare? >> actually, i think it's already happening today. in many respects, the playbook used by ukraine and now increasingly by the russians are also appearing in the middle east. hamas was so successful in their invasion of israel because they were able to use quad copters. similarly today hezbollah is using munitions to effectively depopulate the first ten miles of israel along the lebanese border, causing citizens to have to evacuate. if you look at the red sea, today houthi rebels are using autonomous sea drones to harass the 12% of global shipping that passes through the red sea.

as we go forward, i think we're going to see even more changes as systems that are autonomous are increasingly powered by even more effective artificial intelligence. >> a shocking nugget from the book is that the iphone has a processor 100 times faster than the f-35 fighter yet, which is arguably one of the most sophisticated planes in the world, which is why unit x is here, right, to bring those technologies together. the new book "unit x, how the pentagon and silicon valley are transforming the future of war" on sale now. still ahead, we'll have the latest on alec baldwin's criminal trial for that deadly shooting on the set of the film "rust." "morning joe" is coming right back. "rust. "morning joe" is coming right back

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it's piled high with tender beef that's slow cooked and smothered in tangy memphis style barbecue sauce. it's no fuss, no muss. just tons of flavor. the best barbecue beef is only a togo's. try one today. alec baldwin's criminal trial resumed today in new mexico where he's charged with one count of involuntary manslaughter stemming from the

fatal shooting on the "rust" movie set nearly three years ago. yesterday, the jury heard opening statements and testimony from four witnesses. chloe mulatt has more on the day in court. >> this is a crime scene. >> the jury in alec baldwin's criminal trial has now seen the frantic aftermath on the set of rust where halyna hutchins was fatally shot in october 2021. >> went through her, through the chest. >> this was an unspeakable tragedy, but alec baldwin committed no crime. he was an actor, acting. >> baldwin, who faces a single count of involuntary manslaughter listened intently. his wife and brother all in the courtroom. for the first time, the actor's defense argued even if baldwin meant to fire the gun, he should not be found guilty. >> even if he intentionally pulled the trigger, that doesn't make him guilty of homicide.

he did not know or have any reason to know. >> still, they maintain the gun accidentally discharged and baldwin has repeatedly and publicly denied he pulled the trigger. the prosecution hoping to convince the jury he was negligent with the firearm in filming. >> cocks the hammer, points it straight at ms. hutchens and fires that gun. >> the defense outlining the crux of their case, it was not his job to insure the gun was safe. >> there were people responsible for insuring the safety. >> his lawyers playing a portion of a 911 call in which the caller faults the assistant director. >> he's supposed to check the guns. he's responsible. >> while one investigator testified multiple live rounds were found on set, the defense has worked to distance baldwin from blame. still, prosecutors insist the veteran actor did not follow industry standards. >> we set safety rules require

actors like the defendant to treat every firearm as though it's loaded. to never point a firearm at another person. >> nbc's chloe melas reporting from the alec baldwin trial in new mexico. jonathan, in our remaining moments here, 6:30 p.m. now, originally scheduled for 5:30, moved by the white house. president biden gives a press conference with an awful lot of eyes on him, including those of many democrats up on capitol hill. >> yeah, it is an important moment for this president and his re-election campaign. he will try to calm some of the nerves from his fellow democrats and try to tamp down some of the talk tat he should step away. i think we should also note, we saw a day yesterday full of fast-moving developments. a lot can happen between now and 6:30, even before that news conference, in a cycle that's

moving this quickly with democrats so very anxious about this election. >> yeah, president biden, his campaign was feeling good yesterday morning when they woke up. then speaker pelosi comes on our show, speaks to you, says what she says about waiting for the pred's decision. george clooney posts an up ed. things start to change. we'll be watching and covering it closely. john, thank you very much. we'll be back here tomorrow morning. ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a final quick break. we'll be right back. ht back.

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right now on ana cabrera reports, a solo unscripted and high stakes moment for the president. set to hold his first news conference since his disastrous debate. as lawmakers in his own party call for him to step aside from