country, which is the senator passing nonpublic information about the number of diplomatic personnel from the u.s. that was in egypt through nadine menendez back to egypt. why is that relevant? it's relevant, according to prosecutors and people in the intelligence community, because of a foreign country knows how many diplomats are there and know where they are located. they night mooigt know where somebody isn't or where they need to put surveillance on in order to make sure they know what the u.s. is up to. so that's something that is normally very sensitive. that's the type of thing they pointed to today as far as the senator going above and beyond the normal things he would do for his constituents. >> thank you very much president the jury gets the case tomorrow before lunch. that's going to do it for me. "deadline: white house" starts right now. 4:00 in the east. it's the 900-page book that team

trump doesn't ever want you to read or crack open or really even know about. authoritarian vision and plans on paper, it's the heritage foundation's project 2025 and it is now bursting into public view in spite of or because of trump's repeated denials. even in spaces where project 2025 is not explicitly mentioned or quoted, the vision it outlines is every maga true believeer. semafor is reporting this, quote, trump comes back in january. i'll be on his heels coming back, and i will run the biggest deportation force this country has ever seen. that was former i.c.e. director at a panel on immigration policy. quote, they ain't seen bleep yet. wait until 2025. trump's allies are not even

trying to hide the radical plans for the country should donald trump prevail in november and serve another term. as for donald trump himself, he's claiming he knows nothing about it saying in a post on truth social, quote, i have not seen it, i have no idea who is in charge of it, end quote. the ties between team trump and the her talk foundation run deep and wide. just ask them. here's trump in 2022. >> our country is going to hell. the critical job of institutions such as heritage to lay the groundwork, and heritage does such an incredible job. this is a great group. they are going to lay the groundwork and detail plans for what our movement will do and bha your movement will do when the american people give us a colossal mandate to save america. that's coming. >> it turns out that the

heritage foundation agrees wholeheartedly with what trump just said about them. here's the director of project 2025 on a podcast in a clip on media matters. >> i think president trump, we're fortunate to have john macatee, who many of your listeners may know. he was hem theed the office of presidential personnel and what i would call the fourth quarter of the first term in trump. but he is one of our senior advisers. >> the heritage foundation will even play a large and public role at trump's coronation as the head of the republican party next week at the convention in milwaukee. the milwaukee journal reports, the heritage foundation, the d.c.-based think thank that truce produced project 2025 s among the sponsors of the convention in milwaukee. the group is touted as a convention partner on the host

committee's website and they plan to hold a policy fest in downtown milwaukee monday. the opening day of a convention in which trump will receive the republican nomination for president. project 2025 and its vision for the country simply underscoring the stakes of the november election. it's where we start again today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. the president of media matters for america angelo carasone is back with us. and vaughn hillyard is back. and former prosecutor at the department of justice msnbc legal analyst andrew weisman is back. vaughn hillyard, you have been pouring through this on our behalf. they are one in the same. macatee, you figure in some of the depositions from the january 6th select committee he was the guy that ginni thomas handed the loyalty list to. he's been in charge of the loyalty oath and the kinds of people and the staff being pure

enough and trumpy enough since the first trump term. he's the project 2025 guy who is so proud of his association he talks about it on tv. talk about this business art is effort to fits tans trump from project 2025. >> right, john mctee was the former director in the white house. he was the former personal aid. he was overseeing the database of project 2025 in a senior adviser capacity. project 2025 talked about the idea of having the executive have the ability to fire tens of thousands of civil servants across departments and agencies making the case that it is the agencies and departments that should be properly executing what the desires of the president and executive office are. so what they essentially have done is sought o build a recruitment tool and ask questions of perspective employees who would be political

appointees that would be able to come in and fill these roles that were previously served by the civil servants. and john mctee is not the only individual. you have russ vote, he's one of the leading authors of project 2025, that policy road map. this is where donald trump, i feel bad for the folks at project 2025 and the heritage foundation for donald trump trying to disassociate himself, because these are folks doing this work on behalf of him and somebody who wholly understood they were doing this work on behalf of him. russ vote was not only the leading author of project 2025, but also is the policy director of the rnc's platform committee, which just this week released their own platform. so essentially, he had his hand in writing both. this is where that intersection between the two is so strong, and frankly, it's very difficult for donald trump, who used

heritage foundation in 2016 to help build out his personnel and policies for his first administration, to have a blanket denial of his association or familiarity with them. >> andrew weisman, when i asked last week, we were talking about this. i think we were talking about doj. he said this isn't even the scariest thing in it. when i came back and asked what is, he said it's granularity. we asked with that in mind to read the fbi section for its granularity and report back. tell us what you found and what you thought. >> sure. i think i'm going to give you one illustration that i think explains why you are seeing this effort to bck pedal to say i'm disassociating from it. there's so much in here. there's a huge section on the department of justice, but let me give something that is in black and white for viewers on

page 562. you can see it in black and white. you don't have to take anyone's word for it. it's criminalizing, forcing by criminal law the shipping of anything that could in any way promote getting an abortion. any material. the criminal law is any article, instrument, substance, drug, medicine, or thing, which is advertised or described in a manner calculated to lead another person to produce an abortion. that is explicitly called on to seek enforcement of the criminal law with respect to rad kalting the ability to in any way facilitate an abortion. i should say the same criminal laws also apply to anything that would interfere with conception.

so when donald trump says i'm distancing myself, one question that should be put to him is what about this provision. this is in black and white. do you agree with this or are you going say, no, that was done without authorization. i have no idea. i complete lu reject that. this is just one example. there's a lot more examples, things that i care about in terms of the independence of the tpt of justice, but if you want something that goes to real people's lives in this country on page 562, you can read it black and white. >> the luxury of having two hours is we don't need to get beyond this section. we have the next hour and we have tomorrow. let me stay right here. vaughn hillyard, has anyone had access to trump since people have become more fluent with these kinds of details inside

project 2025 to ask him this question that andrew points out. it's about enforcing the construct act. federal law prohibits mailing every article, substance, drug or thing advertised or described in a manner calllated to lead another to use or apply it for producing abortion. following the supreme court's decision in dobbs, there's now no federal prohibition on the enforcement of the statute. it should i announce its intent to enforce federal law against distribuors of such pills. >> donald trump is not keen on doing interviews. we have not had the opportunity to ask him those questions really since he started to distance himself from this project. and the background of this project here is heritage foundation will tell you that they put together a similar book, a policy road map for

ronald reagan in 1980 when he won the white house. so for the american public, this is a benefit of seeing policy written down on paper. for donald trump, he has been clear through his campaign that he speaks for himself, yet there are folks like steven miller who continues to work in the capacity of an adviser to project 2025 and ab adviser to donald trump, caroline leavitt is featured in project 2025 promotional material online. the former secretary is one of the authors as well of 2025 chapters. so for donald trump, this is where there is coming to ahead where some of these conservative organizations, it's not just heritage foundation. more than 100 other groups backed this project, including the likes of turning point usa. and each of these organizations

understands that a potential majority in congress and having donald trump back in the white house is an opportunity to enact policy that they have long sought. so for these organizations, there's a reckoning that donald trump could be used as a powerful tool to see this through, yet at same time, the team needs to understand they need to win an election four months from now and not every one of the policies stipulated is exactly popular among the vast majority of americans. >> again, this is why i don't want to zip through this. this is wildly unpopular. even trump knows that. the abortion bans he supports and the abortion ban supported by the kinds of justices, even on the supreme court and the federal bench, are being rejected in kansas and ohio and north carolina. i wonder as someone who is an expert at the intersection between the flurry and the blur of extremism that comes from the trump movement and some of the

challenges the press has in covering it, how you would advise the press to sort of hit pause and stop on this single outrageous piece of this 900-page document. >> it starts are the with the recognition that they are one in the same. despite what's being said, despite the distancing, the fact that trump is trying to distance himself, how that falls out is ill straightive. as much as he's saying this, he realizes it's unpopular. the way heritage foundation is responding is important. so kevin roberts, the guy that talked about this revolution that everybody allows them to go forward, which started this spiral of distancing, was just on a reside owe show yesterday talking about the fact if you look at what the rnc put out, what trump's campaign says, the overlap is tremendous. he understands the political calculation for trump to be

saying these things publicly, but they are still moving forward. they haven't gotten the message yet. he's trying to keep everybody, it's okay, we're still moving forward despite what's being said publicly for political purposes. that's why i think it's important to start there because it shows how real it is. it's not just sort of some ideas or expressions, but it can be operationalized. they understand that they need power first. they need to win the elections before these things. then the second thing gets into what we talked about before, which is the granularity. this one page is very specific. even if a lot of these things don't hold up in court, the whole idea behind this is to do some big shocking things early on. mass arrests, mass deportation, so you get people in line. they are going to be advocates. it's going to be journalists. it's going to be across the sector, so you dial down that political opposition. so the same thing that they would do in the abortion context, they want to do in the educator context as well for anyone that's pushing things

related to lgbtq youth. they hope that they can send a clear message there. that's how i think people should focus on it. one, to not take what trump is saying at face value, but to explore further, which is how is project 2025, how is the republicans responding to this. they seem to be on the same message. this is a wink and a nod and they get it. the second is to look at some of 2450ez examples. the last thing i would say is what are they doing next? what's the next operational step? he's been talked about. refs on the rnc platform. he's one of the projects of project 2025. he's writing a new document called the 180-day agenda. which is a breakdown of how they will implement parts of project 2025 in the first 180 days. that will not be a public document. but the mere fact that that is moving forward right now and given his intersection with the platform committee and project

2025, it's got the blessing of a would-be trump administration. these things are not abstractions. >> andrew, i know you looked at the toj section. i want to read a little more because it involves something we talk about a lot on this show. this is also from monday afternoon, a few blocks from the white house, conservative scholars discussed how to strike back against trump's eneenemies. we have to start impeaching these judges for acting in such a partisan way from the bench. the california attorney who was disbarred last year for working with trump to challenge the 2020 election. people who have used this tool have to be prosecuted by republican or conservative district attorneys in exactly the same way for exactly the same kinds of things until they stop. so that's the plan.

if you, or jack smith, how do you prepare? >> blood count black and white, you don't have to trust anything we're saying. you can see it for yourselves that saying they are going to go after local district attorneys. gee, i wonder where that idea came from. that it's not connected to donald trump seems fanciful and really sort of it shows such disrespect for his own followers to think someone believed that. what i'd like to say is facts and law matter. but what i would say is facts and law matter on earth one. we are used to being able to say that and thinking of the courts as one of the last refugees where that is something that you can cling on to.

the courts after the last election did very well. now when you have the supreme court of the united states completely throwing facts aside and issuing a presidential immunity decision that no one expected because it's so untethered to legal principles, to the history of this country, to the separation of powers, to checks and balances, i think there's no way to prepare other than having your faith in knowing that you did nothing wrong and that you adhered to in good faith to the facts and to existing law. you don't have that, you really do -- that is not going to be a salvation. we are not going to be america anymore.

>> that is the plan in black and white. and they seek to do these things through those of us. that doesn't -- that's not how it works anymore. >> yeah, and it seems that others have gotten the message. one of the top contenders senator vance was asked about this very issue. of prosecuting political opponents. and he basically rationalized it. he said he adopted this idea of revenge. you should have a special prosecutor for joe biden. you should investigate these things. there's nothing to worry about, then they have nothing to worry about with the special prosecutor. instead of starting with the

perspective we shouldn't be manipulating the doj and use in it in that way to go after political points. one of the effects of having this media apparatus is it doesn't just take the idea, it can reverberate it to function a way it would in congress to get people in line. that's really what's happened. this is not something on the fringes. this is something that has been sort of put right through the center of the republican power. so to your question before, how do you prepare for something like this? you kind of can't. you have to prevent. this is one of those instances that the only way to prepare is to prevent. >> to prevent donald trump from ever becoming president, to prevent the only person worried about when the supreme court ruled on official acts. no one is coming to save us. just us, the voters. thank you for that reminder.

we will go through this section by section with your help. thank you very much for reading it for us and helping us sift through it. when we come back, there's no more important or frankly electric sur fwat for president biden that trump is unfit to serve as nation's president than the other half of the ticket. vice president kamala harris. we'll look at her busy week of campaigning and new reporting on what's going on at the white house. plus not to be outdone by president biden's meetings with heads of state this week, donald trump is leading the authoritarian wing of the world. meeting today in his florida home with the hungarian prime minister. and later tonight, president biden's first solo news conference in many months. stakes couldn't be higher. we'll bring that to you live. i'll join my colleagues for full analysis afterward. when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break.

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donald trump has openly vow ed he will be a dictator on day one. so the let us be clear. this represents an outright attack on our children, our families, and our future. if trump gets the chance, he will sign a national abortion ban. but we are not going to let that happen. we know, women know what's in their own best interest and don't need their government telling them to do with their body. >> as trump bows down to dictators, he makes america weak.

and that is disqualifying for someone who wants to be commander-in-chief. >> as president biden convenes world leaders this week for the nato summit, vice president kamala harris has been on the campaign trail continuing to vigorously prosecute the case against donald trump highlighting the stakes of this election in terms of whether or not we remain a democracy. vice president's harris campaign tour comes amid growing chatter even within the biden campaign and allies themselves about whether or not the vice president might be better quipped to prevail in november after president biden's perform pants in the first daert. "the new york times" out with this reporting. president biden'sment campaign is quietly testing the strength of kamala harris against former president trump in a head to head survey of voters. the survey, which is being conducted this week of the commissioned by the biden

campaign's analytics team, is believed to be the first time since the debate that biden's aids have sought to measure how the vice president would fair at the top of the ticket. the results of that survey could determine whether joe biden remains at the top of the ticket. "new york times" also reporting that a key group of advisers to the president believe that the strength of the vice president might sway his decision to stay in this race. quote, a small group of biden's advisers in the administration and the campaign have said they would have to convince the president of several things. they say they would have to make the case to the president who remains convinced of the strength of his campaign that he cannot win against former president trump. they have to purr suede him to believe that another candidate, like kamala harris, could beat trump, and they have to assure biden should he step aside the process to choose another candidate would be orderly and not devolve into chaos in the democratic party. in a statement to the "new york times," the white house denied there was an effort by members

of president biden's team to convince president biden to exit the race. joining our coverage is mike smith. and the president of the reproductive freedom for all, folks that we turn to all the time is here. mike, take me through what you and your colleagues are reporting about the advisers as well as the story about the president's own political operatives. >> what we're reporting is there's a realization among some of these long-time biden aids that he's going to have to exit the race. and the biggest obstacle to that would be having to convince him to do that. and the story really enps caps lates what the story of the moment is, which is essentially a standoff. a standoff between joe biden and

the democratic party. the democratic party that's around the edges saying some things, but at the top of the party is not coming out and publicly forcefully asking him to get off the ticket and the president is digging his heels in even further. we report in the story that the president had said before the debate that he thought he had a far better chance of beating trump than the vice president. this is a conviction that he has maintained in the aftermath of the debate. different from him, there's a realization amongst some aids that his candidacy is not going to work. it is too far of an uphill bat thal he needs to step aside ask that they have to figure out a way to get him there and convince him to do that. >> mike, the advisers that are quoted in both these stories seem to be engaged in a little bit of what nancy pelosi was doing yesterday. she showed up on "morning joe"

seemingly speaking to one person known to be in the audience pretty regularly. is there -- the reporting inches at the idea she's isolated. >> we don't have full vsibility into what the president is doing, but but there is a notion among some of these advisers that the president had spent a lot of time with his family in the aftermath of the debate. there's not a ton of access that a lot of people have to the president. that's been the case for sometime as the president has been a big, and the question that democrats have is the president getting full advice and full counsel from everyone. does he have a true appreciation of the polls. and of all the democratic

politicians and aids that i have talked to i can find very few that will say on background or off the record that they think that the president should stay in the race. and i think the question in the coming days will be is how does the democratic party ratchet up that pressure. what does the press conference today mean? is the press conference able to put the toothpaste back in the tube from the the debate? i don't think the interview got them to the point they thought it was going to get them to. there's still questions here with someone like nancy pelosi coming out and saying the president has to make a decision when the president apparently already made a decision. it's really a standoff. heading into the third week, it was only two weeks ago that the debate happened. >> the most intriguing piece of all of this is that the president's data team is polling

harris vs. trump. i have been watching her for years. i have paid extra close attention, as has the country the last two weeks. she's always been, i think, his most effective surrogate. she's become electric, not just on the stump, but on the ropeline. the attacks against trump are among the sharpest in the democratic party right now. and i wonder what you think it means that they are poll test ing at least, maybe keeping every option on the table or try ing to bolster the president's view that only he can beat trump. i don't know. it is intriguing that they want to understand where voters stand if the question is kamala harris or donald trump. >> i great that it's intriguing. i have always the thought the want vice president was electric on the trail. i want to go back to a couple things that mike said because i'm a democrat who you can talk to who is 100% behind joe biden. reproductive freedom voter, the

base of the party, women, people of color, most of the elected official who is have come forward like the congressional black caucus, hispanic caucus, i have 40 million members in my organization. we are in battleground states. we are in arizona, nevada, michigan, we are with the president and the vice president. it is because of his commitment and this administration's demonstration of their work -- their incredible success on a progressive agenda that includes reproductive freedom. they have gone to war on our behalf. and the vice president has been tip of the spear. she's been incredibly dynamic in this space, particularly post dobbs, really out there fighting for so many of us. but we also have to remember joe biden asked kamala harris to take on the reproductive task force. he asked her to go out and be the fiercest defender she could

for these issues. it's his administration, his d, j that has been at the supreme court on the frontlines of the fight at a time where abortion has never been a more popular issue. when abortion is on the ballot, abortion wins. right now reproductive freedom advocates are behind joe biden. >> in the last block we read from project 2025, which the vice president has also mentioned in her campaign speeches, the president has been being president so we haven't seen him on the trail. what trump would do if he wins is to criminalize every aspect of reproductive health care. to criminalize the male. there's an article in the atlantic today meticulously reported that says they are preparing not just to win, but to win in a landslide. president biden is behind in the battlegrounds. he slipped 6 points in wisconsin since the debate. with everything on the line for every woman and every woman's family, what are you feeling about the state of the race?

>> i'm not going deny that the numbers are scary. however, we know that we are still in the margin. i thought the polling that showed that while a very large number of americans are concern ed about president biden's age and wanted to drop out, when you go head to head with the next question, who would you vote for, donald trump or joe biden, it tightens up dramatically. we look at the map. if the states that i mentioned where we're strongest, where we have activists engaged, where we have been on the ground, biden campaigns got operations knocking on doors already in those critical states, we feel we can make the margin. everything is on the line. and the reason why i'm so terrified of what's been going on the last two weeks as we have prognosticated and debated the president's abilities is we're losing ground and we're losing time and focus away from donald trump and project 2025.

and the fact that he just put forth a gop platform that many in the press covered as a moderation of his views, but it's terrifyingly scary. it has language that would lead to laws in states that could lead to an interpretation of the 14th amendment that would recognize embryoses as people. this is scary stuff. we have got to get the focus back to donald trump. we have to get the focus back to project 2025. >> how do you do that if every day more elected democrats are dropping their support from joe biden? >> i think elected democrats are making a big mistake. what i will tell you is when i'm out in the states basically almost every week, and i'm knocking on doors, they are not worried about what their represent i have thinks about joe biden. they are woried about the economy. they are worried about the safety of their children going to school every day. they are worried about climate. they are worried about their

bodily autonomy and their fundamental freedoms. we're not losing ground with our grass roots. i wish more folks in the press would get out into the states and talk to regular americans. we're in a d.c. bubble. pef we have a lot of folks who think they are smarter than the american people. but the american people the are paying attention to the issues. the way we cut through the noise as an organization, we go back to the toors. we roll up our sleeves and keep talking to everyday voters. >> we're going to show you more of the other half of the ticket. no one is going anywhere. more new reporting. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. don't go anywhere. we'll be right back. and see why pods has been trusted with over 6 million moves. but don't wait, use promo code big25 to save. visit pods.com today.

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has the president or anyone at the white house ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone? yes or no, sir? >> the president or anybody else? >> it seems you'd remember somebody like that and be able to tell us. >> when black women are three to four times more likely to die in connection with childbirth in america, when the sons of black women will die because of gun violence more than any other cause of death, the question has to be, where you been? what are you going tad? >> can you think of any laws that give the government the power to make decisions about the male body. >> i'm not thinking of anyoneny right now, senator. >> sir, i have just -- >> you let me qualify. i'm not able to be rushed this

fast. it makes me nervous. >> mike, we talk about the times reporting. several of president biden's allies are telling nbc news they see his chances of winning as zero and the likelihood of taking down democratic candidates growing, he needs to trop out one campaign official said. he will never recover from this. a democratic member of congress text me this. i think it's just a matter of how soon it's over. we need to get back to talking about trump. how do these advisers plan to heal the rift between where minnie is? i don't know there's a more important constituency. the issue of reproductive freedoms, how to you knit this official quoted in the nbc story, the aids you talk to, the democratic congressmen, how do

you knit this back together and get them back on offense? what's their plan? >> they are trying to get through today. this is one of the distractions that a lot of democrats on the hill feel that this is created. so today we're talking about this press conference. there will be special coverage of this press conference. all the television networks will be putting it on. everybody will be sitting there playing armchair doctor to figure out what level of acuity they believe the president has. that's not focused on the issues. that's focused on questions of acuity. and that is some of the frustration that i heard from folks on capitol hill. it is something that takes away from that. i think the real question in a lot of this is where is chuck schumer. he probably more so than anyone else holds a lot of the cards in this. and probably has the most on the

line himself as well. and any action that we'll be taking here by democrats towards the president would have on the senate races across the country. he has been the quietest. he hasn't gone on tv the way pelosi did. you hear very little about what's coming out of his office, but in many ways, he's probably the person maybe besides obama that could really throw their weight around here. i think part of what's going on here is this is a very unique situation. this is not something that we have seen a lot of times. and we in the media are trying to figure out how to cover it in a fair way. this is the president of the united states. there's questions about his ability to perform his job and his elect elect blt going up

against a candidate that has raised a lot of serious issues through what he says he wants to do. and it's a pretty extraordinary moment. >> i'll give you the last word. i would ask you to lend your expert voice to the stakes once again. they couldn't be higher. that's what biden's own advisers are grappling with. i think that's why they are paying so much attention to the data. i get texts all day long from data points. tell me how you see this playing out. >> you played that superer cut of kamala harris just being fierce. that does get a lot of us through the dark days. i have had a lot of folks call me and say, this reminds me of bill barr and kamala and you played that clip. the combo of the president and

the vice president, it's powerful. what's next for us is getting back to the issues. one thing i thought was really promising, despite all the noise of the last two weeks, project 2025 is the most googled subject right now. there's a lot of cultural influencers talking about it during the b.e.t. awards. that's penn traiting public consciousness. this is critical because we have been talking about something that you have worked in the administration. it's a blueprint. how many americans talk about that. so the fact that we're getting through because of how dystopian it is, but also it's a sign that folks remember how bad the trump years were. we have to get the focus back what's going to unite us is our issues. what's going to unite us is focusing on what we can fight back together. the aspirational hope of building back our democracy. we only get to do that with four

more years of kamala harris and joe biden. >> thank you both for having this conversation with us. we're grateful to you. coming up next for us, donald trump's top vp picketts all have one thing in common. they all at one time had a lot of bad things to say about donald trump. we'll play what they said about him, next. l pollay what they sat him, next.

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republican national convention starts in four days. donald trump has yet to announce his running mate. what has been a years-ling campaign featuring some of the most power craven sycophants, especially in the post-january 6th era, is three top contenders who kissed the ring, often enough and enthusiastically enough to be on the list. j.d. vance, doug burgum and marco rubio. once nicknamed little marco. before the former apprentice makes his next hire, hears what some of those candidates have said about donald trump, the convicted disgraced ex-president they want to serve as number two. >> we are not going to turn over the conservative movement to a con artist, who is telling people one thing but spent 40 years sticking it to work

americans. >> would you ever do business with donald trump? >> i don't think so. >> why? >> i would -- i just think it's important you are judged by the company you keep. >> you wouldn't do business with him? >> no, i wouldn't. >> senator, this is an evolution. i will know you have been asked about this before, about past comments that you have made about donald trump. you have said i have never -- i am a never trump guy, never liked him. terrible candidate. idiot if you voted for him. might be america's hitler. might be a cynical a-hole. cultural harrow in. >> i was wrong. i didn't think he would be a good president, he was a great president. >> you know what they say about men with small hands? you can't trust them. you can't trust them. >> we are back with nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. so is it the guy who called him america's hitler, the guy who

got in a fight him on stage about the size of his hands, or the guy who said you are judged by the character of the company you keep? >> right. i think frankly, the anticipation was he would have a vp candidate, a running mate, somebody loyal to him. the reason that he threw mike pence off the cliff as because he was loyal for only four and a half years. not loyal in donald trump's mind on january 6th. when you look at these three finalists, look, on the campaign trail with marco rubio when he was making these comments. when he was challenging him, he directly made reference that donald trump had, quote, third world strong man rhetoric. the idea that put your faith in me and i will make things better, he will do this or that. he said if he hadn't inherited $200 million you know where he would be? selling watches in manhattan. more so, doug burgum, those

comments to chuck todd were one year ago. it's notable in a radio conversation with the right wing outlet yesterday donald trump when he was mentioning doug burgum he said that he wasn't so sure because he signed a six-week abortion ban in the state of north dakota which may have gone too far, which again brings the idea that donald trump is looking politically at who could be advantageous for him here. of course, if marco rubio is the selection, one would have to change residencies. marco rubio would have to step aside as u.s. senator because he represents florida. there is a lot on the line potentially. of course, you are looking at that decisions in milwaukee at the convention. >> is there any chance it's none these three? is the reporting pretty solid it's one of these three? >> i keep getting told the decision will come from donald trump. and i think frankly there is some people that whispered to me ben carson. someone who had no interest in

running for president ever again, been loyal to a "t" to him through his time in the administration and the four years since. also congresswoman elise stefanik, one of the impeachment managers to defend him. over the last five years, a stalwart defender of his, somebody who has been on the national airwaves trying to strike that strong defense in most of her public critiques of him -- not public, made in private, have been written about. so i think there is definitely an open question mark. two weeks ago he said he made up his mind. this week he is suggesting that he is still trying to make his decision. i think one other note on this here, is when you are looking at who that running mate would be, there are serious question. who would potentially certify election results and go along with anything come 2029 and marco rubio certified the 2020 election. so i think there is a lot that

we not only are looking at potentially for this november but also what that individual, the role they would serve in the administration. >> what's moved the timing? >> i think it's a good question. he suggested this week that he was waiting to see whether joe biden would drop off the ticket, that that could change his decision-making process. tim scott was a perceived frontrunner early on when he joined him up on stage at a campaign rally in new hampshire and went and was there with him for each of the months that followed. he has dropped in this. but potentially tim scott if kamala harris moves to the top of the ticket would increase in his consideration. of course, j.d. vance, don jr. is going to be giving the final speech ahead of the vp selection at the convention. he and j.d. vance struck up a close relationship the last two years. they share a team of advisors and potentially that could be indication of which direction he

is going. j.d. vance has been an outspoken individual who we could get-much more into this conversation on, on the idea of firing the civil work force. he has been a big proponent of increasing the executive powers to ensure that individuals in the departments of agencies that the civil work force level are ready to carry out the orders of the president and the executives in the administration, and so i think j.d. vance is very much the one who is most closely come to speaking the ideas of project 2025 and the trump world. so i think if he is ultimately their pick, i think that donald trump sees somebody willing to carry out what he seeks to do inside of his administration in a second term. >> terrifying. thank you so much. coming up, donald trump's big powwow today with leading autocrat viktor orban. the next hour of "deadline whitehouse" after a quick break.

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♪♪ they think it's russia. i have president putin, he just said it's not russia. i will say this. i don't see any reason why it would be. i have great confidence in my intelligence people, but i will tell you that president putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in the east. the mic drop moment for the wrong reasons. the statement heard around the world. the then-president of the united states of america siding with the murderous dictator over his

own intelligence officials on the question of election interference. we entered a new era of american foreign policy during that hour on that day. we are having a leader who would always choose and side with democracy no longer for us. president biden has worked tirelessly to reassure world leaders we are the america they know and trust. ever present is the looming concern that if trump returns to office, he will align america with the dig aters and autocrats he so frequently publicly admires much more than any of our own allies. that fear was furthered by what's happening today. following the nato that president joe biden has been leading, hungary's prime minister viktor orban is set to meet with the disgraced ex-president in mar-a-lago. orban, who endorsed trump for president, reshaped hungary to

keep in power. sounds eerily similar to the objectives laid out in black and white by conservatives here in america and their project 2025 manifesto. orban's meeting today with trump follows a busy calendar of meeting with other autocrats. on monday orban met with china's xi jinping and last week with russian president vladimir putin, putting this meeting with trump in starker relief. this is trump putting it out there again in bold face and red letters in case you missed it the last several hundred times he did it, he is not only putin's poodle, he leads a political party that is pro-putin, pro-russian, pro-aggression, pro-war crimes, pro-authoritarianism, anti-nato, anti-ukraine and anti-american interests. we heard that from trump at his rally this week.

>> i said you have to pay your bills. they say, sir, may i ask you a question. if we don't pay our bills, will you protect us from russia? you are delinquent? >> yes, will you protect us. >> no, i will not protect you from russia. >> that's where we start. former u.s. ambassador russia michael mcfaul, former deputy assistant sector of defense for russia, ukraine and eurasia and executive director of the mccain institute and former official during the obama administration rick is here with us. you can't keep them apart, evelyn. trump and orban, orban and trump. this is extraordinary even for trump that he is meeting with him again. >> yeah, i mean, nicolle, it's horrible. frankly, viktor orban, you know, we should find a way to

discipline hungary within the nato context for the actions giving vladimir putin a pass, not helping ukraine with military assistance. he just came from visiting moscow, visiting beijing. you know, visiting our adversaries. now he is going to go see donald trump on heels of the nato summit where he was relatively quiet, but one wonders if is he bringing messages from xi and putin to trump? because, you know, as you know, you showed the picture from the helsinki summit, we don't know what president trump and vladimir putin talked about for over an hour at the helsinki summit those many years ago. so orban is a problem because he has a recipe, he said, for how to take down a democracy. another way of saying not a democracy. >> let me show you trump in his own words on orban and other autocrats.

>> there is nobody that's better, smarter, or a better leader than victor orban, who is fantastic. the prime minister of hungary. does a great job. a non-controversial figure. he said this is the way it's going to be and that's the end of it, right? he is the boss. great leader. fantastic leader of europe and all over the world they element him. think of president xi, brilliant guy:you say he is brilliant, everyone, oh, that's terrible. he runs 1.4 bill people with an iron fist. smart, brilliant, perfect. i was being tough. so was he. we go back and forth. and then we fell in love, okay? no, really. he wrote me beautiful letters. and they are great letters. we fell in love. >> the last one he was talking about, kim jong-un, murderous

leader of north korea, honored with a visit. it seems -- and i don't know if this is possible because i am always worried about relativity. but it seems that trump has become more comfortable being more brazenly enthusiastic about the world's most brutal autocrats and dictators. >> tragically, i think you're right. he has had many opportunities. if he wanted to distance himself from those horrific comments you just replayed from 2018, right? it would have been so easy for him. it would be politically easy for him to do. and instead, he just keeps doubling down. he just did it at the rally. he invited viktor orban to come see him. he didn't invite president zelenskyy. and, therefore, i think it's really just a very stark choice that the american people have. do they want to elect to be the

leader of the united states somebody who embraces dictators, or do they want to elect a president who embraces and supports democrats? it's just crystal clear. before -- remember, they tried to fake it. they would say that's not what he meant, when i would talk to white house officials and he stands up for democracy. now it's just black and white, the american people have a choice. support democrats or support autocrats. >> let me show you what to me is almost a fetishizing of vladimir putin. >> so you know vladimir putin, you think he is a killer? >> mm-hmm. i do. >> putin's a killer. >> a lot of killers, what you think our country is so innocent? >> it was when president bush said, i looked in his eyes and saw a soul. i said, looked in their eyes? i don't think you have a soul. we understand each other. >> he is running this country and at least he is a leader, unlike what we have in this

country. >> but again, he kills journalists that don't agree with him. >> well, i think our country does plenty of killing also, joe. >> you know, we are laser focus on the stake of november's election, right? and we spent the better part of eight years warning about the dangers of donald trump. as a country sort of krar reigning into november, we have got the guy that has nicer things to say about putin than about any of our democratic allies out in the lead. what explains that in your view, rick? >> you know, some day the true story of the relationship between trump and putin and trump and russia will be written. we don't know it now completely. i mean, you know, from the time he has been trying to have a hotel in moscow to various other things. but i think the thing that explains it, i am sad to say, is that he has sort of a child's view of what strength is. ever since roy told him that he

had to be strong and always appear strong, he respects people that appear strong. and in the previous clip, xi jinping appears strong. orban appears strong. putin appears strong. it's this juvenile, childish playground sense of strength. unfortunately, i think a lot of voters buy into that as well. they think that is a sign of strength. it's a sign of weakness. he is an historically weak candidate and people should realize that. >> evelyn, what is the view from moscow? there is always been less affection but an enthusiasm for playing trump, not as slobbery as trump is to putin, but putin seems to always be on the right message as trump and tucker carlson and that echo chamber. what is the current view about what's at stake for russia in november? >> yeah, clearly, nicolle, the russians on the ukrainian

battlefield and world stage, they are not winning. they are resorting to crazy tactics. you talked about killing in the clips. we you can talked about killing, the president talked about killing. the russians, you know, there is new reporting that they tried to assassinate the head of the major german arms manufacturer, which makes all the ammunition that they are -- we are providing to ukraine. so vladimir putin is getting increasingly nervous about his situation in ukraine, so he is lashing out. he is really upping the ante, now targeting western, you know, businessmen, and also conducting sabotage operations in the west. but he is in a stalemate on the ground. so he would like trump to come into office so that he can make a deal and, a deal that would be favorable to russia and, obviously, unfavorable to ukraine. so i see putin as someone ho is weak now, contrary to the way

president trump sees him. but he is hanging in there because he is hoping that donald trump will win. and donald trump is useful to him. i don't know -- i don't believe that he respects him tremendously. we saw that when tucker carlson did the interview with putin, putin was dismissive and disrespectful to him, if you paid attention. so he regards, i think, all of these americans who are friendly towards him for their own, you know, weird reasons as useful idiots. >> and they have no shame, as is proven over and over again. if we can assess that, people can tell them that. ambassador mcfaul, what is orban doing shuttling between putin and xi and donald trump? >> well, he does have an alleged peace plan, according to my ukrainian colleagues, that were talking to him. he was staying in the same hotel here in washington with president zelenskyy and his team. i wonder who put that together? but he is, has some stupid peace

plan. so he has some pretense to doing it. but informally, it's a signal again. these people are all idealogically aligned. they share a world view. orthodox conservative values, and they are autocrats. and he is signaling clearly who he supports. i mean, he is at a rally with donald trump. i wonder, you know, is that interference in our elections? and i want to emphasize something that rick just said. it's very important. this definition of strength, i think we have to radically interrogate. is it strong to attack a hospital where children with cancer are? i don't think that's strong. is it strong to kill your opponents, to kill alexei navalny? that's not a sign of strength. that's weakness. i think we need to take head on this idea. it is not strong men.

these are weak men that use autocratic powers to stay in power. >> well, and they are also not the successes that they seem to think they are. i mean, rick, would you get down to a clep talksy, as a democracy staggers and moves towards autocracy, the corruption and mixing of the state and the personal is one of those hallmarks. trump sought to do that before with absolute immunity. we could be guarantee he would do that on new levels if elected. what opportunities do auto crafts with someone like trump? >> your point is a good one about autocrats. no business person wants an auto craft running their economy. the economies of autocrats are not flexible, dynamic. i want to make a double point about window.

one, he coidentifies idealogically with putin because they are christian nationalists. they are not just radical authoritarians. they describe themselves as christian nationalists. putin describes it as the last white christian nation. those are actual words. this is poisonous idealy to america. hungary is a country of 9.5 million people. that's smaller than new york city. it has the gdp of kansas. we pay way too much attention to viktor orban. we should just mostly ignore him. >> happy to ignore him. i think where we focus though is trump's instincts. and i think that, you know, rick, i would just -- i would look at how orban played trump and come back to you on this. this is from the associated press's reporting in april. thursday viktor orban accused liberal progressive governments of employing tactics that they

say he used in hungary and suggested the 34 felony counts against trump were politically motivated. if necessary, they will use government agencies against us as may american friends say, weaponizing state unconstitutions. this happens to us hungarians in brussels. this is what is happening to trump in america and we encourage him to fight for his own truth, not only in the elections and also in the courts. i guess the importance of orban, it's just another, as david said, you know, less than 400, 744 how affectionate donald trump feels towards autocrats not based on size of their country or their population, but because he wants to emulate them, he wants to put their practices in place here in america. i think that's the orban story, right? >> yes. in some ways, he is a model. he is template. he was doing this before trump was in office getting rid of

checks and balances in his own country. he has also become a trump mini-me. the other secret sauce, and i know i am going to do the kind of basics, is that viktor orban flatters trump. everybody who flatters trump gets an audience with him. everybody who flatters trump gets praise in return. it doesn't take a genius to realize that's what you have to do. orban has been doing that since day one. by the way, the greatest flattery is imitation. that is what he is doing. >> yeah. i mean, no one said he was a smart useful idiot. i think that's in there. we have much more from our panel as trump seeks to be the leader of this ac sis of the autocrats while president joe biden looks to rally support where democratic allies worldwide. a deeply reported piece of journalism about the disgraced ex-president's campaign now praying that president joe biden's days in the race and on the ticket. reaction to that reporting later

in the hour. plus, we are over an hour away from president biden's news conference tonight. what he has done to prepare for what could be one of the most important nights of his political life. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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and right now, get up to $800 off the new galaxy z flip6 and z fold6 when you trade in your current phone. get the fastest connection to paris with xfinity. the fact is that over the past few months the battle for ukraine has shifted. ukraine stopped russian, kharkiv, number one. should be complimented for that. number two, you have won at russia's advances. you have imposed significant costs on russia. and made it clear russia will not prevail in ukraine, will not

prevail in ukraine. ukraine will prevail. and i want you to know we will be with you every step of the way. >> we are back with ambassador mcfaul, evelyn and rick. take me inside ukraine's view of the nato meeting this week. >> well, for the ukrainians, it's a mixed outcome, i would say. they are pleased that in the communique it says it is now inevitable they will become a member of the nato alliance. they would like to have received an invitation. they like that language. they like the support they have seen and with the president just now, the public support they have seen and the new pledges of commitment, particularly on air defense. that's very important to them. at the same time, they are nervous about the future of the united states of america just like every other delegation that i have talked to here. and they are making contingency

plans. what do we do if we have to deal with a nato that is no longer led by somebody that believes in nato? and that is a sense of deep anxiety among all the ukrainians that i saw over the last three days here in washington. >> yeah, i mean, evelyn, anne applebaum pulled the curtain on this as well. this is the frantic, mostly whispered conversation not just in washington, but among our allies. what if trump wins in november, which today's polls suggest he very well could. >> yeah, nicolle, so i have been at the summit. i was at the opening ceremony and running around today talking to various europeans, and what is striking to me, unlike americans who maybe more recently started to say, oh, trump is going to win, the europeans are pretty definitive. they sound like they already know the outcome of our election. so they are quite alarmed, and increasingly on the sidelines you hear conversations about

doing things that this current administration wouldn't approve of, putting boots on the ground, putting in air defense systems, you know, closer in to ukraine. things that have been maybe discussed internally, but now countries are leaning forward and thinking about what they might do with or without a u.s. blessing. so i think the allies are worried. we have seen -- you know, i was recently in japan and taiwan. i was struck that they are almost more worried than our european allies about not just the outcome of our elections, but how we are doing standing up to russia. so there is a great deal of international anxiety right now in general when it comes to russia and china, but then also about what the u.s. is going to be willing to do in the future. >> rick, anxiety is just this global mood, right?

talk about what the conversation is here, because i think people who could still save us are our own voters, our own neighbors, our own citizens. the election is not preordained. i think the brain has all these adaptive measures to prepare for the worst. i think our european allies can read polls and see more news than some of us do. the polls have donald trump ahead pretty decisively. joe biden has been a successful president. there is a process. it's chaotic in the party now. nothing is predetermined. anything could ham. this issue of america standing on the world, the choices, i don't know they have ever been this stark, whether we remain a democracy or not. it doesn't just affect our rights at home. it affects our relationships around the world. what is your sense of whether that conversation should be a part of the one we have as americans over the next four months and what it sounds like? >> yes. it's a global election. i sometimes wish people around the world could vote in addition to americans.

i mean, because democracy is on the ballot. i mean, one of the things that the europeans asked about after 2020 was, is this an aberration in america? or is this a sea change? and they are now beginning to think it's a sea change. and so they have to adapt to that. i think we're at, to use biden's very good language on this, an inflection point between authoritarian states and the system they say is effective versus democracy, which is messy but we say is more effective and objectively more effective. i think if god forbid biden loses and trump is elected, there is going to be a radical change across the world. that american model of democracy that, you know, flourished after world war ii and then has been ebbing in this democratic recession over the last 20 years, i mean, there is going to

be a different world. just going back to nato, you know, you are going to be looking at a nato that might not have the u.s. in it. and in some ways, yes, that behooves the europeans to do more, but i just think it's a sad day, and, you know, 75 years of nato keeping the peace in what is, what most people don't realize, the most peaceful era in human history, has been a really great thing. >> evelyn, there is something so resigned about how you describe the europeans, how rick sounds right now. what is your sense of how the europeans see or asians, how the allies see the sort of american spirit in this hour? >> yeah, i mean, i think they are really taken aback, nicolle, by what is happening in our political sphere. most of the people here at the summit, you know, from europe, they don't expect to see an

outcome, for example, of this debate about what happens with our president as a nominee until they leave. i will say though that rick just had a little bit of an optimistic note in his last sentence, and i do think that on balance, the europeans feel like they had a good summit. the last one went really poorly and that was because there was disagreement that came out publicly with regard to whether ukraine would become a nato ally. this time there was a lot of preparation that was made. the language was strong as ambassador mcfaul mentioned. and the ukrainians also have taken the news in stride and they have gotten a lot of that they need. i think they are feeling better on the battlefield. and the europeans were able to welcome sweden for the first time to summit. remember, finland and sweden, they are now our allies. so there is a lot of positive news also coming out of here.

so i think i'd like to join rick stengel with little bit of optimism. >> all right. go ahead. >> i want to expressway more optimism than that. for two reasons. one, nicolle, you're right. this election is not over. we are talking about it like it's inevitable. we have a long wise to go. i am not a political expert, but i read enough of the polls to know it's not over yet. number two, i can tell you the biden administration is very happy about this summit because we saw solidarity and leadership in the democracies, right? we talk about how the autocrats are aligned. we saw the democracies together today and yesterday and the day before, and it was a very good summit for president biden showing that he is the leader of the free world. and they believe, and i think they're right about this, that americans want to be the leader of the free world. we don't want to be part of the

autocratic alliance, illiberal international. when push comes to shove and we ask the american people, do you want to lead the free world or be a part of the autocratic wurmtd, i think the majority want to go with that. this proved president biden can be that leader. >> his speech to nato and the sort of the pomp and circumstance is certainly his comfort zone and his sweet spot. thank you for having this conversation with us. it's so nice to see all of you. and for landing on optimism. i louvre it. when we come back a stories about team trump's nightmare scenario, that brand-new reporting for you after a short break. rand-new reporting for you after a short break. (man) ahhhhh! (woman) no, no, no, no, no! (vo) you break it. we take it. trade in any phone, in any condition and get a new iphone 15 with tons of storage, on us. only on verizon.

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uncomfortable with the conversations democrats are discussing. it is the one thing that donald trump and his campaign desperately do not want to happen. according to a stunning and terrifying new piece of reporting from tim alberta of the atlantic, the ex-president's campaign team has centered their entire candidacy on running against and defeating president joe biden. there is no plan b. according to alberta, this is true, quote, biden quitting the race would necessitate a dramatic reset, not just for the democratic party, but for the trump campaign.

they know their campaign has been engineered in every way from the voters they target to the viral memes they create to defeat joe biden. privately, they are all but praying he remains trump's opponent. joining the conversation former republican congressman and mbs political analyst david jolly. voting rights attorney, founder of democracy market, marc elias is here. i know you got through this whole terrifying piece of reporting. but just on this idea, i feel like for the last nine years orienting myself around being for what trump is against was a good guide that i bass going in the right direction. this ties the brain in a knot. >> yeah, it does. it says a couple of things. the first is a point i made about the trump campaign now for months and, in fact, we talked about this last week, or earlier this week, rather, about the legal efforts, which is that the trump campaign is much more professionalized than ever before.

in 2016, it was, you know, sort of a ragtag group of misfits. in 2020, a little bit better, not much. we saw how that played out in the post-election. they have professionalized their operation. they have a well known political operative. and these are two people who know the mechanics of blocking and tackling. and so no one on the democratic side should take any solace that donald trump will defeat himself. these are very, very good op conservatives. number two, we need to be careful in taking them at their word because they are good operatives. they want to say the thing that they will cause -- that will cause democrats the most uncomfortable moments in the moments that they can say those things. so i don't, frankly, trust either of them for that they say. as far as i could throw them. >> i think that's a good admonition. let me share some additional

elements of tim alberta's great reporting. it may fall under the same category. so he writes, in my conversations with them over the past six months, they assured me that the campaign was planning for all contingencies, but took seriously the possibility of a substitution who would be ready if biden forfeited the nomination. they told me it was too late. the most influential players are too invested in the narrative that biden is capable of serving another four years. your thoughts about this reporting and how we should process it? >> i think on its face we are entering another election cycle that is now a hallmark of our american politics where the two leading candidates have high negatives. each side has the ability to spend years hammering home the negative partisanship themes.

republicans have spent six years on everything from hunter biden's laptop to the biden business affairs, sending rudy giuliani overseas to meet with foreign assets, hammering his age. they have done that arms length from fox news. joe biden arrives at this election cycle really beaten up with high negatives. so does donald trump. donald trump also has historic negatives and most of his former cabinet won't support him. and so this is baked in. two candidates with really high negatives and the truth is republicans are now scared because they haven't spent enough currency beating up alternatives to joe biden. they want to face joe biden. if it's not biden, they want to face vice president harris. but they don't get to control that outcome. joe biden and kamala harris get to control that outcome and i suppose some democrats on the hill think they get to contribute to that decision as well. we'll see. donald trump wants to face joe biden. if not, joe biden, he wants to

face kamala harris. >> marc elias, i want to reading is in the piece that is squarely your bailiwick. the marching orders were clear. trump's lieutenants were to dismantle the rnc's ground game and divert resources to a new election integrity program. a legion of lawyers on retainer, hundreds of training seminars for poll monitors nationwide. the goal of 100,000 volunteers organized and assigned to stand watch outside voting precincts, tabulation centers and even individual drop boxes. it is a national sort of voter suppression operation masquerading as election integrity, even after lifelong republicans bill barr and chris krebs found no voter fraud. what are your thoughts? >> it's barely masquerading. it is a voter suppression operation, in many respects the republican party takes pride in that.

you know, one of the unfortunate thing about the last few weeks is that people have lost focus on the voter suppression war machine that republicans are building and are deploying as described in this article. as i sit here today, there are 62 lawsuits filed by republicans and allies to make it harder to vote. they are using the courts, trying to use the courts to literally allow poll challenges, allow republican party operatives to intimidate election officials. there was a lawsuit filed yesterday in arizona in which they are trying to do exactly that. they are saying that laws that protect election officials from intimidation are unconstitutional. they are trying to ban and limit absentee voting. they are trying to undermine the certification elections. today in nevada the state had to sue the three republican members of the county board, the second

largest county in the state, because they refused to certify the accurate results of a primary election. i am here to plead with everyone, please don't get distracted from the fact that republicans are trying to make it harder to vote and easier for them to cheat. they are laying the groundwork to subvert the election results. this 100,000 figure may be insflated but they will have a lot of assets and resources on the ground intimidating election officials, suppressing voting rights, harassing voters and trying to overturn free and fair elections. we saw it after 2020 and we are going to see it again in 2024. >> you know, david jolly, listening to your analysis of this reporting, and tim alberta is the cream of the crop in terms of the incredible reporting about chris licht that preceded his exit from cnn. reporting on the maga movement infecting small communities in northern michigan and otherwise.

but i asked how we should -- what we should do with this and how we use this information. this other sort of analysis in mind, talking about hopelessness and despair, that one of the tactics, one of the things that trump is seeking to deploy is that people throw up their hands and say, you know, trump so far ahead, it's a foregone conclusion, too late for the democrats to do anything, and that paralysis is palpable. i can feel it. you talk to campaign folks. they haven't done much campaigning. they will concede they haven't moved the ball downfield politically in 15 days since debate day two weeks ago. everything is waiting for the next moment. it was stephanopoulos. then it was the nato speech. now it is tonight's press conference. and i wonder your thoughts on sort of breaking that paralysis and being able to get back on offense to focusing like a laser on trump's anti-democratic

pro-orban, pro-putin autocrat agenda. >> in addition to the, voter depression, the fear that people stay home. the fact that both candidates have high negatives right now. you know, the notion that if republicans had nominated nikki haley we may not be here. that is true as well because donald trump's negatives are so high. i actually think, nicolle, there has been a missed opportunity, but it's still occurring a little bit. the last two weeks is distilling this to the simplicity always needed to the race. you have a criminal candidate nominated by the republican party who wants to roll back your freedoms and in joe biden a sitting president nominee who wants to protect your freedoms. because of the anxiety around both candidates, i think it's forcing voters to recognize maybe this is a hard choice. but, boy, it's a more important

one than ever. i think democrats are doing themselves a terrible disservice. i think everybody's working in good faith. what i am about to say is not an insult. members of congress don't matter right now. the opinion of house members means nothing right now. what matters is the delegates that creates the majority. convention or 4,000 that joe biden actually won in the primaries and had been pledged to him. unless there is somebody going to challenge joe biden and flip 2,000 delegates into being faithless delegates for joe biden, then democrats need to get in line because the decision was made by joe biden and by vice president harris, two of them decided to stay in the race. and i think there has been confusion around what should have been distilled into an easy contrast. it is because of that noise, this week is a perfect example. you covered in the show today, the united states has hosted nato. our allies and freedom on the theme of protecting the west and countries that can't protect themselves at a time when donald

trump is hosting viktor orban. every democrat in the country should be praising joe biden's leadership on the world stage for restoring stability and strength to the nato alliance and restoring order on the world stage in defense of freedom. it is his strongest suit. it is his strongest talent. joe biden's. that's what we should be talking about. not to simply praise joe biden. draw the contrast with the other candidate who would unravel all of our allegiances to freedom in the west. this decision was made. joe biden is the nominee until he decides he is not. frankly, democrats, i share the unrest of two weeks ago. but we don't get to have that unrest now. we distill this down, you are either with the criminal candidate nominee of the republican party who wants to roll back freedom, or with the incumbent democratic nominee who fights for freedom every day. it's that simple. and i think the confusion and the unrest of the last two weeks actually distill it down and get us there.

>> all right. we will keep this going. i have to sneak in a break. stay with us.

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a democratic member of congress texted me this morning and said it's almost over. just waiting for someone to pull plug. this is about joe biden's candidacy. this is what my colleagues reported today. quote, several of president joe biden's closest allies including free people who are directly involved in efforts to re-elect him told nbc news they now see his chances of winning at zero. the likelihood of him taking down fellow democratic candidates growing. he needs to drop out. he will never recover from this. my phone is full of biden allies sending me poll numbers, statements from democratic members of congress who congres and said they have gone home and received no criticism, but praise from their constituents for doing it. this is not a president or a campaign season about whether tax cuts go up or down. it is not a campaign season that is about whose health plan -- this is about whether there is a

health plan. this is about whether there is a democracy. this is about whether in january we're covering mass arrested of the clintons, obamas, and bidens, and i want to know from you, marc elias, when the public conversation will match the private one. >> look, i think you're seeing, day by day, including today, there are different statements from different members that are coming out on all different sides of this. and that is part of this process that we are, unfortunately, been stuck in, in the last two weeks, as you point out. i do want to add one thing to a point you made when you asked david his last question about who benefits from the cynicism that none of this matters, and the only person who benefits from the cynicism that none of this matter is donald trump. the only person who will benefit from people staying home is donald trump. and so, it is important that when this political process sorts itself out, as it will need to, because the convention is coming upon us, that all

democrats and all right-thinking people reject the cynicism that is being offered to them by chris and susie. that they reject the cynicism that donald trump wants to seep into the discussion, and that we understand the importance of the threats to democracy. >> i mean, david jolly, i guess i come back to you with the question of what now distinguishes the two parties when you've got -- you've got republicans who have long said something very different about donald trump in private than they do in public. you now have the same thing happening in the democratic party. >> among elected officials, and i think this is very important, because just as we would suggest that top democrats might be gaslighting -- and i use that term about the white house staff in the first 72 hours after the debate. i remain unsettled by what i saw, but i accept the reality

that joe biden has said, trust me, i can do this, and he made the decision to stay in. now it's a contrast. this is where i would suggest the parties are different. if that donor that was quoted or that anonymous elected official or that democratic leader who is quoted, saying, we have to do something, we have to pull the plug on biden, you're undermining democracy because you're invalidating 14 million votes of democrats across the country that handed joe biden the nomination. there were 16 million democrats that participated in the democratic primary that choose their nominee. over 14 million chose joe biden. two million chose somebody else. and the notion that members of congress or a machine or donor is going to come in and say, hey, voters, you don't really control the party, we do. it's the most republican thing of all that democrats could do in this moment, and that's where they would ultimately fail the test about democracy. this isn't easy. it's not good. the democratic voters nominated joe biden. joe biden said he's staying in, so now your choice is between biden and trump. that's it.

>> well, i don't think anyone is saying that the party leaders have any power at all, because they wouldn't be texting reporters -- >> well, they think they do, nicole. >> i don't think anybody does. i think if we're going to stay true to what we've tried to do in these two hours, the only person with any power to do anything different is joe biden. and joe biden wants all the same things that we do. joe biden wants to continue to live in a democracy. joe biden's own son will probably be the first person -- the bidens have more on the line than anybody. and in terms of legacy and -- i mean, the legacy for joe biden right now is not just, do you win or lose an election. for joe biden, it's, do you end the american experiment? so, i appreciate your point, but i'm not saying that the democratic party leaders have any power at all. i think we watched the republicans, and it's clear that there's no such thing as -- we live in a sort of post-party leader america. the only person with any power,

because of years of legal and political movements, is the president. so, what we're actually talking about, marc elias, is what does joe biden do? >> i think joe biden is going to give a press conference later today. and we -- and he and all of us will have more information after that, and then i think, you know, he has said he's made his decision, but you know, i've been in politics long enough to know, decisions are not made until they have to be made, and so, you know, we will see what he does. >> david jolly, i hate when i feel like we're misaligned in what we're saying. i'm not saying anything different than you are. there's nobody with any -- no one can make joe biden do anything. i guess my question to you is, what does joe biden do? >> yeah, so, nicole, we're not actually misaligned. i think you and i see this correctly, which is the only person that can make a decision is joe biden. and joe biden made that decision by, but leading democrats don't like it. well, sorry.

voters made their decision. joe biden made his decision. if you're a leading democrat who doesn't like it, your job is not to tank your nominee. that will give us donald trump. your job is to unify. now, privately, if you want to continue your conversations with your nominee, and if circumstances change, and if joe biden himself decides, you know, maybe now is not the time, maybe i should step back, then unify around that decision. joe biden gave you his decision. and if you're a donor who doesn't want to give another dollar, fine. risk giving us donald trump. if you're a leading democrat who refuses to listen to your nominee, recognize you're just refusing to listen to him, because you don't have any power in this say. you can have as many meetings over on the hill as you want, but you're sitting around a camp fire, patting each other on the back and it's not making a bit of difference. joe biden made this decision. if you don't like it, too bad. if he changes his mind, maybe you'll like it, but he's not changing his mind. he's your nominee. you're with him, or you're with donald trump. and i get it. it's a hard situation for all of

us, but biden will protect freedom on the world stage, protect american democracy. donald trump will end it. it's that simple. >> marc elias, what's your sense of how far we are from getting beyond this and back to a contrast with joe biden and donald trump? >> we have a democratic convention that's coming up. we have a republican convention that's coming up that will take up a lot of oxygen, as they usually do. he'll also announce his vice presidential nominee, and that will be the source of discussion, no matter who he chooses among the misfits that he is considering. there will be a lot to talk about, about what it means for the country if donald trump and that individual were to be in office. and then, a lot of the democratic convention and that will be a political story unto itself. i guess my point, nicole, is that every day that goes by, i

am seeing the effects that were described in that story of the republican prioritizing not knocking on doors, but intimidating election officials and changing laws to make it harder to vote. every day that goes by that we are not focused on that is a day we are not focused on the threat to democracy when we get to november 5th. people are going to be asking, why did this happen? why weren't we more prepared for this? i'm here to say that, you know, today, my team won a big victory in the wisconsin court of appeals. that will make voting by mail easier, and ballots will count. we won a big case that you and i talked about in wisconsin about ballot drop boxes. the federal court in alabama today took, you know, a big step in ensuring black voting rights in alabama, and i'm proud to be involved in that, and i just want to make sure we are not losing the fight for democracy that is the rules of the game while we are focused on, you know, the political aspects.

>> david jolly, i want to give you another question. i've sort of barrelled through a break here, i'm sorry, control room, but we've also lost two weekends of articulating to the american people what the supreme court's immunity decision means, and it's an extraordinary contrast. being for the rule of law, being a president who just saw his own son convicted in a court of law by a jury of his peers, running against an ex-president who's a convicted felon. we've lost two weeks of taking that story and that contrast to the american people. >> yeah, that's right, nicole, and i think this is where what feels like a hard choice for all of us really shouldn't be, because you have a uniquely dangerous candidate in donald trump now aided and abetted by his supreme court that he created and manufactured. a criminal candidate who is uniquely dangerous. and you have an aging president. with all of the foibles and all of the failings and every day, maybe even today, he'll face a

moment that might feel disqualifying, but is it really disqualifying for joe biden if he misspeaks against a former president republican criminal nominee who wants to roll back our democracy? i don't think it is. i think the goal here is to stop donald trump. and as long as joe biden has made his decision, you're either riding with biden or you're fine with rolling back democracy with a criminal candidate nominated by the republican party next thursday night. i think it's an easy decision. even though it feels like a hard one. >> marc elias and david jolly, i appreciate this conversation. and thank you for letting us into your homes. i'll be back after president joe biden's news conference, along with my dear friends and colleagues, rachel maddow and joy reid. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> hi, nicole, and hang with me for a second if you're willing. we're going to have you, rachel and joy leading the coverage when we get the press conference. we all understand presidential press conferenc