again on saturdays at 11:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. make sure to mark your calendars for saturday, september 7th, join me at msnbc live democracy 2024. it is a special live event in brooklyn. we will talk about the most pressing issues of our time with a whole bunch of ms and b hosts and special guest. scan the qr code on your screen for tickets. on that note, another deep breath, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of monday. i will be in milwaukee next week. okay, this is a video taken at the u.s. capitol on january 6th. do you see the guy in the scarf walking around among the throngs of rioters on the capitol balcony? if you do,

that man's name is anthony kern, an arizona state senator in addition to being at the capitol that day, he was one of the fake electors from the state of arizona. he has been criminally and diluted -- indicted for his role in the alleged scheme, with the alleged co-conspirator with this guy, jay kaufman, he is also an arizona state senator and one of the fake electors who allegedly conspired to overturn the results in that state. mr. hoffman has been struggling to explain his participation in that scheme ever since. >> i'm simply, i was one of the electors, i'm not in charge of the electors. >> reporter: how did you hear about that? >> you would need to ask the party. >> you would need to ask the party chairman. >> reporter: you're the person that received the call, you showed up. how did you know to show up? >> like i said, you can ask the

party chaired the logistics of it. >> reporter: how you got the phone call? do not know how you arrived at the place? >> i appreciate your time. have a great one. >> reporter: the senators were indicted in may along with 16 other people including this woman, her name is nancy cottle and she is another fake elector the reason i bring up these three arizona fake electors is because next week, they are all expected to be in the same place and that place is not a courtroom and it is not a holding cell, the place where those three indicted fake electors will be gathered as the republican national convention in milwaukee. all three of those arizona fake electors are delegates to their party's convention the seer, they had to get special permission from a judge to travel out of state and to attend the convention while under criminal indictment. they are not alone. cnn reports that fake electors from seven different states

will be serving as delegates to the rnc in milwaukee this year, which on one hand, it's kind of unusual, people involved in the plot to overturn the election, some of whom were charged criminally are the very people whose party has chosen to represent it at the national convention. on the other hand, it also very much makes sense. after all, that convention is where republicans are going to nominate a man with 34 felony convictions to be there presidential nominee. the first felon in american history to be leading one of the nation's major political parties. that is where the republican party is that right now. despite the impression you may have after the last few weeks, very few people have forgotten that fact. even amid the ongoing debate over president biden's age and his fitness for another four years in office. it is why everywhere you look, there are voters saying things

like this. >> i vote for two dead flies with the wings pulled off over trump. all right? i vote for darth vader over trump, that is how i feel about it. that man is going to be the ruin nation of this country, he will be the ruin of the world. >> my option is joe biden, old or not, i don't care if [ bleep ] in the casket dead, i will still vote for him. >> if it is a biden and trump race, i would vote for biden, even if he was dead. >> i would stay home. >> i'm a republican. >> not just anecdotal, polling data tells us at least for now, that sentiment is widely shared. a new poll conducted after the debate and released today found merely two-thirds of voters,

64%, do not think president biden has the mental fitness to serve as president but when that same poll asked voters he would they choose in november, it found joe biden and donald trump in a statistical tie with joe biden actually leading trump by two points, which is in with the margin of error. that poll was conducted before last night's press conference. again, after the debate. if that poll is correct, there are significant number of people who do not think joe biden is mentally fit to be president but plan to vote for him anyway because they would vote for literally anyone, anyone over donald trump, debtor life, mammal or insect. there is nothing that would make those voters choose trump, just like there is nothing that can make worshipers in the cult of maga abandoned donald trump. most voters made up their minds long ago about where they stand

in this election. the question is, what about the handful of voters who have not made up their minds and literally hold the fate of our country in their hands? what about them? a good way to think about the polling is that because of the way that electoral college is structured, democratic candidates tend to have to win the popular vote by four or five points in order to win the election. hillary clinton won the popular vote by two points and narrowly lost electoral college in 2016. joe biden won the popular vote by nearly 4.5 points and nearly cut -- narrowly won the electoral college in 2020. because of the way the population has shifted since then, president biden will likely need to win the popular vote by an even bigger margin this time around. so far, none of the polling data we have says he is on track to do that. however, none of the polling

data says that any of biden's potential replacements would run away with the race either. that same poll found kamala harris, governor gavin newsom, and rich and witmer all polling within the margin of error. purely based on the numbers, there really is no obvious strategy here. therefore, there is still a major and raging debate inside the democratic party about what needs to be done to stop donald trump. today, the hill reports that house speaker emeritus nancy pelosi is working behind the scenes to get president biden to reconsider his stance on staying in the race. quote, pelosi has not said that biden should exit the race but the lawmaker harbors deep concerns about biden's ability to defeat former president donald trump and she is fighting to prevent the party from rubber-stamping biden's candidacy before there's a broader discussion about potentially the damaging consequences of that decision. house minority leader hakeem jeffries sent a letter to his house democratic colleagues

today saying that he met privately with president biden and he directly expressed the full breadth of insight, heart perspective and conclusions about the path forward the caucus has shared and in the recent time together. the letter neither says nor suggest that the matter president biden's candidacy is settled. it comes as two more democratic members of congress, mike levin of california and brittany peterson of colorado have joined the calls for biden to step down as the party nominee. that brings the total number of members calling on biden to step down to 19. the president is also facing revolt from some of his biggest donors. the new york times reports that some major donors are withholding roughly $90 million in contributions to biden's super pac as long as he remains at the top of the ticket. reporting this week says that biden's team is worried about his own delegates to the democratic national convention, about them coming out against him at the convention.

all of which further illustrates the unbelievable stark difference between these two parties. destabilizing as all of this may be, the democratic convention still remains the place where the party and its delegates decide their own fate. while the republican party has become so enthralled with its criminally convicted leader, that the delegates themselves are under indictment for helping donald trump cling to power. at a rally tonight in detroit before a raucous crowd, a crowd chanting, four more years, and we've got your back, president biden put the choice in sharp relief, while reminding the crowd he is not going anywhere. >> folks, you probably noticed, a lot of speculation lately, what is joe biden going to do, is he going to stay in the race, is he going to drop out?

i am running and we are going to win! i'm not going to change that. >> we love you! >> [ crowd chanting ] we have your back! >> i have your back. i know that i look 40 years old, i'm a little bit older. hopefully, with age comes a little wisdom. here is what i know, i know how to tell the truth. [ cheers and applause ] i know right from wrong. i know how to do this job. i know americans want a president, not a dictator . >> joining me is a columnist for the new york times and former congressman and msnbc political analyst. thank you for being here. michelle, we talked last night about the pendulum swinging back and forth, it feels like

it has swung another direction, i wonder how you are thinking about the moment we are in and whether you think the party is closer to a decision? >> reporter: it is not clear the party will be able to make a decision, the decision might be made for them because it has almost been, the pendulum almost moved every day this week, there were days this week it seemed certain that joe biden was never going to survive this. there were days this week it seemed as if the insurgency against joe biden had been completely tamped down. i think, right now, it looks like that insurgency again is on its back foot. joe biden has had a couple good days in a row, he had a very good press conference, he had an even better rally tonight, we will see about the tv interview that he does with lester holt on monday because this is a very fluid situation. there's a lot of reporting yesterday there was going to be a flood of democrats coming out against him after the press

conference. so far, it has been more of a trickle. there is still a lot of real terror out there. you pointed out there are polls that show them neck and neck nationally. state-level polls, this will be decided in a handful of states, the state level polls are much more alarming i don't know that anybody who was worried about joe biden a couple days ago is not particularly sanguine. >> dave, are you looking at, if you're joe biden, a member congress, you want polling data but it does seem like there is a floor and ceiling to biden support. i'm talking nationally, even the swing state polling, there's always a guarantee it will not go below a certain number but that number is not high enough to secure that actual win. if you're biden, status quo reaffirms his position he should not have to leave the race? how do you see the calculation?

>> the way i see it, a member of congress does not have any more sway than the precinct captain sitting at a countdown in ohio or the state of florida. joe biden would be doing much better if capitol hill democrats would shut up and fall in line i know everyone is working in good faith but this decision is over. there is no decision capitol hill democrats get to make. joe biden made it, he told you once, he told you twice, we will see what he decides, he told you tonight in detroit to a raucous crowd, he said, i'm running and i will win. the only thing that will hold them back our democrats! it is time for democrats to put this to bed and fall into line. at this point, capital democrats will be standing in line behind disaffected republicans and independents and those who figured out the equation, either a criminal nominee in donald trump or pro- democracy nominee in joe biden. you're either working for and fighting for joe biden or your

fighting against him. there is nothing good that comes from continuing to prosecute a case against your nominee, against joe biden, when there is a criminal nominee the republicans are about to elevate. they have lost precious time. what democrats need is unity. i understand how unsettled we all were coming out of the debate, everybody was reaching for unity. it seemed like there might be a moment where unity was another candidate that is not it. that is no longer, it is not an opportunity. the opportunity is to unify around joe biden. if democrats fail to do this, you will lose and hand the nation back to donald trump and it will be on them. >> michelle, the rally in detroit, i think we'll get a lot of analysis in the next 24 hours, 72 hours, it almost feels like what needs to happen , it is a decisive moment and maybe tonight was it. to dave's point about how much longer democrats can continue to do this, you have an expectation? the calendar is still the

calendar. the convention is the 19th to the 22nd of august, the actual virtual nominating process unfolding august 7th because of a strange bid of ohio law that is no longer relevant but nonetheless, there is not a lot more time before anyone can be substituted in. there is talk of was it from that heritage foundation of democrats try to oust item from the top of the ticket. there's the political reality that fighting is not doing anything good for biden or the party and i wonder what you think the appetite is for extending this in the next week? >> reporter: it will depend on the next few days, i did hear senator jolly say that the debate is weakening joe biden. the fact is, you cannot run a national campaign premised on getting people not to say what they are really thinking, especially can't run a campaign like that when the other part, you're also saying the other side is a cult that falls in

line behind their dear leader. i think what you need to do, what people were skeptical of joe biden need to see from the campaign and its surrogates and defenders, is victory, a clear path. because the debate was supposed to be this turning point, it clearly wasn't or it was a turning point in the wrong direction, how can joe biden win ? if people really don't feel like joe biden can win, right now a lot of people from the democratic party that honestly don't feel that he can win, telling them to get in line is basically telling people to join a crowd marching off a cliff. the people not sold on joe biden, it is not because they don't recognize the existential threat of donald trump, it is because they recognize the existential threat of donald trump they believe extraordinary measures should be taken if the current candidate can't swing it. i think it was really

heartening to see how well joe biden performed tonight and i hope he does that over and over again. i think until people are confident that there are going to be many more nights like tonight and we are not going to see repeats of the joe biden we all saw at the debate, it is people who are genuinely, they genuinely need to believe that there is a road to victory before they're going to march step on it. >> david, are you surprised by the reported nancy pelosi is working behind the scenes to air out these tensions? the reporting in the does not say she is trying to oust biden, what do you make of that? she is a tactician, nancy pelosi does not play them have you read the paper in terms of where the party may be heading? >> i'm not surprised at all and it is also because i agree with michelle's points here i think

everybody is working in good faith. my point here is, the decision is made by joe biden and he has made that decision. i was part of the group coming out of the debate that thought, maybe he should be replaced. he gets to make that decision and he made it. there is no tool that democrats have other than mounting opposition candidate against him and flipping 2000 electors. no democrat sitting there saying, i don't know if joe biden should be the candidate has a strategy to actually flip 2000 candidates. at this point, if you're a democrat opposing joe biden, your strategy is to call the secretary of state of georgia, can you find me 11,000 more votes for dean phillips? it is not a strategy. if you're in the pro-democracy coalition, the point is, joe biden told you he is not getting out. unless democrats on capitol hill have a plan to topple the sitting president and their presumptive nominee, your guy is the only shot you've got to beat donald trump right now.

your job is to work for joe biden, not against him. anxiety is real, we consider the numbers, three out of four people have said, i'm not sure joe biden can do it. head-to-head, wait a minute, i'm looking at a criminal nominee versus an aging nominee. i think the criminal nominee is more dangerous to our democracy than the aging nominee. democrats, that is good enough for you to get behind your guy and allow him to beat donald trump because the joe biden you saw tonight will win in november. >> michelle goldberg and david jolly, thank you both for your time and passions this evening, i appreciate it. we have a lot to get to tonight starting with why donald trump's lawyers think he is gotten a get out of jail free card. plus, what joe biden has in common with lebron james and taylor swift, it is not what you think, maybe. that is next.

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the policies of the left would unleash a long-lasting economic catastrophe of unimaginable proportions. our country will go into a depression the likes of which we have not seen since 1929 and maybe worse. >> that was president trump four years ago predicting a biden presidency would unleash lasting economic catastrophe of unimaginable proportions. was trump right? let's take a look at how foxbusiness reported on the economy this week. >> the nasdaq and the s&p are hitting fresh new records for the nasdaq it is the 25th record this year, the 35th for the s&p 500. fireworks here with the industrial, s&p and nasdaq at record. >> i'm a little surprised by the report, you're looking at

inflation tied for the lowest since march 2021, going back over three years to the stock market is at a record high, inflation is negative, month over month for the first time in four years. on a macro level, america's economic recovery from the pandemic is literally the best in the world. as the atlantic last month, the united states economy were an athlete, right now it would be peak lebron james. if it was a pop star, it would be peak taylor swift. joining me is founder and executive director of more perfect union and chief medical adviser to senator bernie sanders i love talking to you about things like this because this should be a moment of great national uplift and pride, we are the envy of the world, do we have the second chart showing real wage growth by country, 2019 to 2023, look at where the united states is. this is wages compared to the cost of goods. the united states is the winner , that is the gold-medal. you

want to see the olympics, they are right there. i want to marinate in this good news right now because the biden presidency has been so accosted by bad news. this is a big deal. >> this is the most important part of that is why, why did that happen? for a lot of people, i understand not struggling with the narrative, how did this come about? it starts with the pandemic era where president biden makes a bold decision of $1.9 trillion in the form of stimulus, unemployment tax credit, school lunches would be free. we will make sure people will be taken care of financially, they are living in fear of addiction or having their cars repossessed. that happens to stave off the worst economic consequences, it puts money into people's pockets at a time of desperation, what happens immediately after that? now investing in american jobs, here comes infrastructure bill, here comes semi conductors, will take on corporate greed

where we see it occurring so we will go after inflation and prescription drug world, take it on in the food industry. as you can see, it has been a fight but now you see airline costs coming down, why, because fighting monopolies in the airline industry. pete buttigieg going after them, finding southwest for engaging in bad behavior. the result of policy choices, the inverse is what is on the table by donald trump, he is watching all of this. he goes into rings and says, all of you business leaders are upset with this guy, you don't like what joe biden is doing. he was a campaign on trading this off, donald trump is promising this one to the swamp. put me back in, i will stop all of this, i've got your back. >> he is literally jumping into the swamp, putting a swamp bubble over the swamp and ensuring the swamp ecosystem flourishes if he is re-elected to another four years in office.

project 2025, which will talk about later in the hour in more specificity, the blueprint for trump second term and the proposals economically, it would so clearly harm middle- class families. cbs did an estimate, families making $100,000 a year would pay 2000 to nearly $6000 more each year, making $5 million a year, you pay $325,000 less in taxes. those are hard and cold facts put up against the reality being moved right now fast. i wonder if it is the affordability crisis piercing the good news balloon that should surround the biden economic plan? how and why? >> we do feel like we don't talk, we don't have a discourse of the economic parlance we need in democratic circles. the language of voting rights, abortion rights, it comes fluidly, lgbtq writes, it comes

great. when we talk about the economy, yes, we want middle-class succeeding and thriving but when we start to challenge how and why the thesis of what we are doing is being made and delivered, i don't see the same kind of understanding, we've got a fix for that. biden is revolutionary in some ways of what he is trying to do. remember the sticker on the back of your shirt that said, made in america? it no longer does, it matters to me. i want things to be made in america. that is bold thinking, by the way, i want them to be union jobs. that is the difference between me and the republicans that say they are for labor, are they for unions? no, they are not. that is a discourse on the table because of what biden is to trying to reverse decades of neoliberalism that suggested public private partnerships could trade deals, multi corporation partnerships, good thing for all of us, drive down consumer prices. as we did drive down consumer prices, the jobs of america were lost. biden says, that is my problem, i'm coming here to get the job back. that language, as we move out of neoliberalism, it needs

to re-emerge in the democratic ranks, the language of fdr, building and investing in america and in doing so, taking on corporate greed and the bad actors that exploded this for too long to their g -- end. economic authoritarianism going on. >> you are so right about democrats not having a language for it. they should own the good news, economic populist and yet time after time, trump and the right- wing get credit for "managing" the us economy better than democrats. go ahead. >> was going to say, i watch a lot of donald trump speeches, probably not good for my mental health, if you watch him, he spent a lot of time talking about the economy, he is a businessman and a make sense. he will spend time telling you about how immigration is affecting jobs in america, he will spin yarns about evs and destroying and terrible, electric vehicles don't work, the tariffs i will bring will improve your jobs. he gives you economic narrative and economic storytelling. what

we have not heard obviously, i'm glad president biden is getting out now, for too long, my good friend at the white house, kept him caged too long. he is a great economic storyteller and he has an economic vision, that scranton joe element has to come out more often. he was not doing super bowl interviews which is crazy, not out there doing press conferences, here he is. guess what, when he talks, he connects with people because he tells an economic story of values orientation that people connect with. we all follow that lead, quite frankly. >> it is at peace with all other parts of the democratic but for most people first. faiz shakir, thank you for your time and energy tonight on this friday evening, i appreciate it. still to come tonight, maga style authoritarianism expired at trump acolyte to assemble his own private militia.

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arguably one of the more potent campaign attacks against donald trump is the fact he is been convicted of 34 felony counts and awaiting sentencing.

probably. last night, trump travis lawyers file the new motion asking the judge who oversaw the trump hush money trial, judge juan merchan, the threw out the trump convictions. conviction. his lawyers cite the recent decision by the supreme court in which the conservative majority ruled that presidents are immune from prosecution for official acts. the trump team is arguing that immunity ruling effectively nullifies the jury verdict in new york this is argument, some of the evidence presented at trump's trial included conversations trump had with aides during his time as president. his lawyers are calling that evidence unconstitutional official acts and saying that the inclusion of that evidence paints his guilty verdict. joining me is msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. can you flesh out the argument a little bit more, how much weight do you think it carries with judge merchan?

>> reporter: part of it carries weight and part of it doesn't. the argument, as you just said, if you are entitled to immunity based on your official acts, that is not just immunity from criminal liability, you also have immunity from those acts being introduced as evidence even for the things you do that or wholly and squarely personal, like the things for which trump was charged in the hush money verdict. they are saying it was the d.a. to introduce a host of evidence that dates back to trump's time at the white house converting from hope hicks and madeleine westerhout, testament and conversations with trump, even his tweets and government ethics disclosure. some of that is well overstated and overblown. on the other hand, they make the argument for the back end of the brief a lot of folks are overlooking, what they're saying is, the court, in their majority opinion said, if you're going to exclude evidence or make determinations about community, you have to do it at the outset of the case.

rbc, judge merchan did not, this is not the law at the time he was approaching his trial. now they say because he didn't and because this is the law of the land, before the trump sentencing, the whole thing has to be thrown out, not even on substance, per se, just because the procedure did not work correctly. that is where i think they might have a point, alex. >> lisa, the fact the supreme court ruled after the jury issued its verdict special dispensation because judge merchan has not sentence trump, it is up for re-examination? >> reporter: yeah, if the verdict was on appeal, it would be up for re-examination as well, until the verdict and the sentence are fully and squarely finalized, a supreme court opinion can have impact on that case. that is exactly where we find ourselves now. i should note, if trump's trial started when it was supposed to in march, we might not be facing the same situation, at

least they might have to interrupt his appeal or to see that differently. at least he would have been sentenced by now. because, through variation of delay tactics, the trial did not start until mid april, this is where we are given where the supreme court has been. >> judge merchan pretty clear in his rulings and he rolled for trump on some occasions, ruled for the special counsel, do you have an expectation about how differential he will be to this very, in my mind, problematic supreme court ruling that is hazy at best, you have a sense of where he might go on this? >> reporter: i think judge merchan is in completely unenviable position because as you said, the supreme court opinion isn't just lawless in many ways, it is highly unclear and amorphous and others. i think you will find many trump's arguments about what constitutes an official act is exaggeration of the supreme court opinion, even taken at

its most generous. on the other hand, that sentence in the opinion that says, immunity decisions have to be made at the outset of her proceeding, it is very hard to see why evidentiary decisions would be different than decisions about what conduct can be charged and not charged. that is particularly the case because special counsel try to argue to the court, evidence issues can be dealt with through jury instructions or normal appellate procedure in the majority said, no, that is not enough. if you are immune from prosecution, you should not have to go through the burden of all of these pretrial proceedings and trial. that is the part he will struggle with and he might have to hold his nose and grant some relief for donald trump even if the remainder of their arguments are really a perversion of the supreme court ruling, alex. >> i'm assuming if he does not rule in trump's favor , trump will appeal this and we will and up at the supreme court with nine justices with 6-3

majority. lisa rubin, thank you for your time and effort this friday evening. coming up, donald trump's very own farnsworth bentley, his umbrella ballet, that gentleman, that meant is recruiting and arming citizens for private quasi militia. what could go wrong? more on that next.

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really big questions about the future of democracy because if you watched the nato summit in washington this week, one of the central issues those leaders were discussing was the rising power of dictators and authoritarians around the world from vladimir putin to xi jinping, viktor orban, there is a massive consolidation of autocratic power happening right now and there's a real open question as to whether western-style democracies will continue to wield the same influence in the face of those rising powers, especially since many of those western-style democracies, including americans, are in the middle of their own struggles to keep authoritarians out of power. that fight isn't just relegated to the global and national level, it is also happening at a hyper local level. take, for instance, this man. >> somebody that is a real star in politics and has done an incredible job and so popular in

nassau county, executive county, bruce, come on up. this guy is central casting. if i'm doing a movie of a politician, this is the guy i have playing. >> thank you very much, mr. president. nassau county is not a sanctuary county and when donald trump gets re-elected, this will not be a sanctuary country, god bless america! >> that was donald trump at a rally in the bronx earlier this year praising nassau county's executive, bruce blakeman, a staunch trump supporter and very loyal umbrella holder, who oversees the county just outside new york city's border with long island. last year, when a 30-year-old lachman named jordan neely was choked to death on a new york city subway by a 24-year-old white man named daniel penny, bruce blakeman led the charge to defend mr. penny.

amid massive public outcry this was a case of racist vigilantism, blakeman advocated for penny, calling him a good samaritan and a hero. now, bruce blakeman is taking his apparent support for vigilante justice one step further. the last few months, blakeman has been using his power as county executive to train and recruit 75 armed civilians to act as quasi militia that can be activated whenever he chooses to blakeman plans to empower those armed civilians to use their own private firearms in the event of an emergency. asked by a note -- local news outlet for political protest could constitute the kind of emergency were blakeman would activate his militia, blakeman responded, if there was a riot, i would consider it. the citizens of nassau county have rallied against this plan ever since it was first proposed, outside the county

executive building with signs reading, no militia in our backyards and reject blakeman's armed militia. blakeman barreled ahead with the plan anyway, arguing it is necessary to keep nassau county safe area you should know that nassau county already ranks as one of the safest communities in the united states of america. there are a lot of things to pay attention to in american politics right now but a trump ally assembling his own private battalion just outside of america's most populous city feels like something worth paying attention to. this just had, we have more trump's playbook for the authoritarian state, project 2025 i will discuss that looming threat with the president and chairman of media matters. stay with us. into something we can see and hold.

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google searches for project 2025 skyrocketed this month. if you've not searched for it yet, it is the blueprint for potential second trump term. it is 900 page document put together by conservative think tank, the heritage foundation. with input from over 100 former trump administration officials. all of this new found attention has caused donald trump to try to distance himself from the project by saying on truth social that he knows nothing about it and has nothing to do with it. the problem with that is the president of the heritage foundation said that this week

the overlap between project 2025 and trump's own campaign platform is, quote, tremendous. joining me is angelo carusone, president and chairman of media matters. thank you for joining me on a topic even president biden is talking about tonight, we will get to that in a second. as far as what project 2025 is, it is a long one, it is a long read and in it, there are deeply distressing proposals, including but not limited to, abolishing the department of education, replacing nonpartisan civil servants with political appointees, moving the department of justice under presidential control, targeting abortion medication, expanding deportation powers, and expanding presidential powers. what do you find most disturbing about the project? >> the thing that disturbs me the most about project 2025, the document you referred to, sort of the 900 page blueprint, it is not a set of aspirational

ideas they are rallying around, it is actually the granularity, it is an extremely detailed plan , step-by-step guide for how to implement an authoritarian regime, initially pure revenge. the theory behind it is you go and follow the steps one by one and the consequence of that is you shock everybody, you engage, as you noted, firing thousands of federal employees and replacing them with the database they already have the people that can go to various parts of the federal government and enact these policies immediately your best a bunch of individuals, people distributing abortion medication, publishers of books that they consider to be too favorable to trans-education, teachers and librarians, mass arrest of individuals for disturbing pornography get the idea behind that is to make it clear that things have changed,

change our culture immediately and continue to follow the steps. that is what scares me the most, not the individual things, though they are scary, it is the granularity, it is detailed. that is the difference maker. >> it is not a lofty plan pie in the sky, lofty goals, this is a how-to manual and the possibility of enacting that, the steps of that manual is lying at the doorstep in november. i wonder what you make of the messaging around it, both from the left and right, this is president biden talking about project 2025 tonight, let's take a listen. >> folks, project 2025 is the biggest attack on our system of government and our personal freedom that has ever been proposed in the history of this country. >> i think it is a good thing the front runner on the democratic ticket is talking about this do you think trump gets away with saying, i have nothing to do with this, are people not paying attention enough yet that trump can get a pass on this? >> i don't think he will get a pass on this. i think it is really important and significant, the fact he is

doing what he is doing, he is trying to separate himself from policies he has embraced pretty clearly. that is former administration officials are authoring, then how deeply unpopular and terrifying the things in this document is. that is a thing, the more you learn about project 2025, the more you don't want anything to do with it. it is more than ideas, it is an action plan, getting rid of the 30-year mortgage, regardless of your politics, i don't want that. it is really specific. the more people learn about it, the more they don't like it. he has to disassociate himself. the problem is he can't go too far, we know what happens when trump wants to insulate something, he filed lawsuits. raising money in his name, has not sent legal threats or incinerated them in a big way, i don't know anything about it. yesterday, kevin roberts, the same guy that started the catalyst by saying it will be a bloodless revolution as long as liberals go along with project

2025 policies, which started this big wave of people paying attention to it for the first time. yesterday he was bragging about the fact that trump campaign staff and project 2025 staff have been working armed in arm for years and he anticipates a meeting, very soon, to figure out how they navigate what he described as the political tactical maneuvers trump is forced to do in order to win elections. that is key, trump is doing it because republicans understand in order to put anything in place, you first need power and you get power by winning elections. will he get away with it amongst his people? probably, they are engaged in a wink and a nod that they will get away with it with the rest. >> it is up to the media and public to start googling and talking. angelo carrion sony with media matters providing indispensable service to our democracy, thanks for your time. that is our show for tonight. it is time for the last word with my friend. more