are going to try to turn the temperature down, talk about, you know, what it is they stand for. and like i like having this conversation about j.d. vance, for example. this is really a great conversation to have. i mean, he stands for tariffs and russian appeasement, let's have those policy debates without insulting each other. >> charlie dent, we have to let that be the last word because we are almost out of time. i thank you and katy tur, we should end it by saying vice president harris has called j.d. vance to offer congratulations. >> you took the words right out of my mouth, chris. that's going to do it for us, "deadline: white house" continues our coverage of the republican national convention right now. ♪♪ >> hi, everyone. how are we doing? it's 4:00 in the new york, it is 3:00 p.m. in milwaukee on a way dai in which a series of stunning and historic and

unprecedented events, i feel like they're piling up one on top of the other. just a few moments ago donald trump officially became the republican nominee for president for the third time in a row and just moments before that he announced on truth social that he has selected ohio senator j.d. vance to be his running mate. the start of the republican national convention taking place at an incredibly tense and volatile moment for the entire country. less than 48 hours after an assassination attempt on the ex-president, a shooting that left one person dead, two others critically injured. if we see donald trump today it will be his first public appearance since that horrific and tragic incident. it is violence that is deeply corrosive to our democracy. we all unequivocally condemn it in the strongest terms possible and as my colleague rachel maddow puts it, quote, there is no no no violent solution to any

american political conflict. we would also like to extend our sympathies to the family of corey comperatore, tragically killed while shielding his family, keeping his family safe from the gunfire that erupted is a rally. no one should ever, ever be at risk when they attend a political rally. an investigation by the fbi is now under way. president joe biden has addressed the nation three times over the last two days, calling for all americans to lower the temperature. in an address from the resolute desk last night he will be sitting down with nbc's lester holt for an interview that airs later tonight right here on msnbc. believe it or not there's more. more news, that is. in a stunning decision that is likely to set up another high stakes legal battle judge cannon dismissed the trump classified documents case in its entirety. the case is done from her perspective. in her ruling she decides that the appointment of special counsel jack smith was in and of

itself unconstitutional. while she imposed reports that the department of justice is highly likely to appeal the decision, reports that the case could very well wind up before the united states supreme court. we will have full coverage of that decision and its fallout later in the broadcast. but we return now to milwaukee where the nominating process is still under way. later in this hour delegates will formally nominate j.d. vance as a republican candidate for vice president. joining us in milwaukee at the rn cnbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard and msnbc anchor katy tur. here with me at the table for the hour former u.s. senator, co-host of msnbc's "how to win 2024" podcast claire mccaskill sand former congressman and msnbc political analyst david jolly. vaughn hillyard, what do you got? >> reporter: we've got the fact that j.d. vance of ohio will be the running mate for donald trump, potentially serving in the capacity that vice president mike pence once served. of course, mike pence of indiana is not apparently here for this

week, but j.d. vance who has only served now 18 months in the u.s. senate, we expect here potentially any moment is going to be making his way down this aisle here to potentially take the stage. this would be the first time that we see j.d. vance here in ohio. of course, this is the man who wrote "hillbilly elogy" rose to mom nens as the author as a critter of donald trump calling his rhetoric abhorrent and somebody he referred to as an idiot, somebody he has led to suggest that he would vote for hillary clinton over donald trump in 2016 and yet in so many ways j.d. vance is the story of the modern republican party. somebody who eight years ago said that he was a never trump republican. here in 2024 is about to become formally the running mate to donald trump to serve in the capacity of vice president of the united states for the next four years.

and for j.d. vance and his allies he saw don jr. on the front lines, i had a chance to ask don jr. about this election and he behind the scenes suggested that this was an effort there, somebody who he knows will be loyal and somebody who will be able to be effective in working and carrying out the policies of donald trump. of course, i was talking to senator tuberville of alabama who said for the 18 months he had worked to build up a collegial relationship with his colleagues, a good relationship with those republican members of the senate if they are able to take the senate majority republicans here in three and a half months. of course, j.d. vance to be an effective conduit for donald trump in that capacity in 2024. >> vaughn hillyard, i feel like in that perfect bit of reporting on the arc of j.d. vance and i'm all for arcs i've been through one myself on my political journey, he also described donald trump as america's hitler. it's notable because he was the first person to come out and

point to the media and democrats with some of their commentary about donald trump, for his own critiques of donald trump they're notable not just because he was so completely against him, but the language was some of the most vitriolic language used against donald trump by republicans at the time. >> right. i think that this is, you know, when you look at the aftermath let's be very clear, the assassination was less than 48 hours and for the likes of j.d. vance if you compare it and trast it to doug burgum, he came out with a statement sending prayers to donald trump and his family during this time here. and on the other hand j.d. vance was quite explicit in his social media post saying that the biden administration and the rhetoric that donald trump was a threat to democracy and a fascist, that that was what contributed to an individual taking aim at donald

trump here. the stakes of what we are talking about are so high and clearly we are talking about what kind of individual would donald trump look at in a running mate. we had that conversation ever since mike pence was booted in the aftermath of january 6. we knew that he would look for somebody who is loyal and that is where you saw a cadre of individuals from senator tim scott who is a one-time i think reticent republican towards donald trump come out and the campaign trail in new hampshire and campaigned repeatedly for him. doug burgum somebody who said one year ago that he wouldn't go into business with donald trump in a business capacity one year ago come out and seek the endorsement. marco rubio who eight years ago covered on the campaign trail when he suggested that he had third -- a third-world leader strongman type rhetoric, he was seeking this vice presidency. i think it speaks to the way that donald trump has effectively shaped this republican party in his image over the last eight years. nicolle, we had conversations in

2022 when j.d. vance was running for the u.s. senate, he was not the only republican running for that senate seat. there were several other republicans seeking donald trump's endorsement yet he got the trump-backed endorsement. almost every single one of those trump-backed candidates in 2022 won their republican primaries and of course the general election was a different story, people like carrie lake and peter dixon they didn't win in november but j.d. vance was a somewhat unusual trump-backed candidate. he did win and ever since winning that senate seat he has been loyal to donald trump, in his corner, early endorser of him in his presidential win when some sat on the sidelines, when the likes of governor ron desantis and nikki haley were still in this. in turn, endorsed donald trump and now here in the heart of july in the summer of 2024 he has been named j.d. vance a running mate to donald trump in 2024.

>> vaughn hillyard, i can see all of the action behind you. i want to ask you to please come back if you are able to rangel anybody of note or would like to interview somebody on the air, you know where we are for the next two hours or so. >> thank you, my friend. >> katy tur, i know you've been on the floor all day and i'm very heartened to see that at least to the, you know, eye of someone who has been to a lot of conventions people seem at ease, seem to feel secure and safe in this convention space. tell me how the tragic events of the weekend shaped the psyche of the delegates you spoke to today. >> i wasn't sure what too expect walking into the convention today, the last one i went to was 2016 for donald trump in cleveland. it feels similar to what it did back then about you with more confidence. i asked people how they felt now that saturday happened, donald trump had that brush with death and they felt -- they felt that

his profile was burnished by that experience and they did also hope that he was going to be able to take that moment and use it to unify the country. they believe that he is going to do that. whether he does it is obviously still an open question, but i do get the sense that even if he doesn't make moves in that explicit direction, the people in this room at least will say that he did. they are the sort of people that will point to the other side and say the reason donald trump was targeted was because of what democrats were doing, was because of how the media was talking about donald trump. this is not a crowd that is wavering on donald trump. the question is what about the folks out there that don't like either candidate, don't like donald trump, don't like joe biden, they're tired of the rhetoric, they're tired of the

political noise, the heat coming off of all of our politics, and they want to cool things down. do they see donald trump after this convention as somebody who is able to do that? and that's going to largely depend on the way that donald trump reacts and behaves not just here this week, not just with his keynote speech on thursday, but what he does going forward. it's also going to depend on how j.d. vance composes himself. you were talking a moment ago, nicole, with vaughan about what j.d. vance said in the immediate aftermath of the shooting of donald trump, and he tweeted out that this was president biden's fault. he said today is not just an isolated incident, the central premise of the biden campaign is that president donald trump is an authoritarian fascist who must be stopped at all costs, that rhetoric led directly to president trump's attempted assassination. this is at the time that the trump campaign itself was telling its staffers and warning

people not to go out and to inflame things even further. there was a directive within the trump campaign telling folks not to do that, but at the same time the guy who was the front runner for the vice presidential nomination, the one who will be the vice presidential nominee, was going out and doing that very thing. is j.d. vance the person who can help tone things down? i was talking to a front line republican lawmaker today who did not want it to be j.d. vance, who wanted it to be marco rubio. who believed that marco rubio could contribute the kind of energy to donald trump's ticket that would unify the country but also help him win and he says a landslide, that he would be able to not just talk to latino voters, hispanic voters, but also talk to more moderate voters who are uncomfortable with donald trump either anew or who have continued to be uncomfortable with donald trump. the idea that it could be j.d. vance who is now seen as more of a flame thrower within the

republican party in line with donald trump, a donald trump, you know, look alike, if you will, or donald trump to be in the future was not what this lawmaker wanted to see. i was also talking to some delegates on the floor who were throwing out other names beyond marco rubio, beyond j.d. vance, beyond doug burgum. they were looking at elise stefanik. obviously none of those things came to pass. it is j.d. vance. the question that is going forward, what is j.d. vance going to be able to deliver. is it going to be the suburban working mom or is the trump campaign going to say we don't need her so much as we need white working class men, the voters that don't come out to every election, the sleeper voters in places like michigan, here in wisconsin, ohio they have on lock, but pennsylvania. is j.d. vance the kind of candidate that can speak to those voters, help motivate them to come out for donald trump. i can tell you in 2016 this was

a mantra of his campaign, they said they were going to break the blue wall, they were going to win michigan, they were going to win wisconsin and people like me would look at them and say how? you've never done that before. and the mantra was jobs, jobs, jobs. do they take that on again and do they use j.d. vance as their mouth piece for that? >> katy tur, i will give you the same request that i made to vaughn hillyard, i know you are in the middle of all of it. if you wrangle anybody interesting, wave your arms we will come right back to you, thank you for your great reporting, my friend. claire, i know katy didn't intend to say this, but just because j.d. vance said that the assassination attempt, which is a horrific and heinous act, i believe i've read it reported that it's been investigated as an act of domestic terrorism, it is at a minimum a horrible security failure. if we can't protest the most

powerful republican in the country, i'm not sure how we convince foreign leaders to come. i mean, it's a horrific story. but there is absolutely no evidence that it has anything to do with anything president joe biden said or did or anything that's been in the media that hasn't surfaced as a part of this story. i wonder -- i worry, i guess, and i'm sure katy simply reporting what she's hearing, that some of that disinformation is calcifying at least in the room. >> yeah. it is, first of all, political violence is evil and everyone i know who is not a donald trump supporter feels very strongly about condemning this violence. there is no one in the democratic party that thinks this would be anything other than an awful stain on our country and our ability to conduct free and fair elections. so having said that, i think

it's really interesting that he picked j.d. vance because if this was going to be a moment where donald trump because he was -- came so close to a brush with death that he was going to somehow pivot to a softer, more unifying message, that it seems to me he would have reached out to one of the many candidates for vice president that would have done what katy referred to and that is open the -- open the tent flap a little. let a few more people in, soften the edges. instead by picking j.d. vance who is a flame thrower, who is bombastic, who called donald trump cultural heroine saturday years ago, he has closed the flap and they have now stitched it closed because they are not reaching out to a new group of people and i think it's fascinating to me that he wanted someone more in his image, willing to say things which i

think was an irresponsible thing for j.d. vance to say. that is not what the country needs right now. it needs everyone to say let's quiet this down. let's have policy differences. let's don't make this something that stirs people's passions to the point that they take up a gun and try to kill someone. so i am not optimistic that we're going to see a pivot from trump to a more unifying message because if he was he wouldn't have picked him. he wouldn't have picked j.d. vance. >> and we also like at some point if we're still looking for the pivot the problem suss, right? i mean, trump doesn't pivot. i would say just the cold hard political calculation if you look at where he is in the polls and you look at where he believes he will be after that -- i mean, the image of -- thank god he wasn't injured in a manner that didn't allow him to walk off the stage, but the way he did it and the images that were captured are instantly iconic. >> they are. so, look, first on j.d. vance, i think you're already seeing the

biden team come out and say he's wrong on abortion services, reproductive freedom, wrong on health care, social security, january 6 and protecting democracy. i think rather than flooding the zone with issues, the take away from the vance announcement is that he's unqualified. it's a singular issue. he is unqualified to be president of the united states tomorrow and where i think a conventional candidate as claire said coming out of the events in butler, pennsylvania, would have selected somebody that could be president tomorrow because that is front and center on the voters' mind now. you would have looked at a burgum or a rubio or tim scott or open up the process all over again. donald trump having just narrowly survived an assassination attempt is telling the country that he wants his vice president to be somebody that's wholly unqualified. a year in the senate, that's it. so on the issue certainly it's going to be important on vance's record but he's not qualified to be president. i think donald trump has opened up a vulnerability politically

to the biden camp. i also think -- i don't believe we will see him -- donald trump be a unifying figure over the coming months. we've seen with our own eyes over the last eight years. i agree with everything that's been said, the assassination attempt requires national condemnation, shared condemnation, it requires national reflection, it requires our national sympathy, but donald trump would be mistaken to conflate national sympathy with national support because nothing about butler, pennsylvania, requires us to suspend our judgment and suspend reality, which is donald trump is someone who tried to instigate violence to stop democracy four years ago. he did that. and we can condemn both incidents. he's also somebody who has suggested he would use the levers of the presidency for retribution. we can talk political issues day and night, we can draw the

contrast on fundamental rights and freedoms that we know he would roll back, but it is okay to recognize we are in a very pivotal moment where democracy was almost interrupted in butler, pennsylvania, by a bullet. democracy was almost interrupted on january 6. we have also seen other incidents of political violence with different victims. president biden tried to allude to those and just speaking clinically because we do need to be sensitive about the politics of the moment, i think for many voters who think we've got to get past this chapter of chaos, who do you think truly in their ethos might be more unifying going into the next four years? is it the donald trump that we have seen or is it the joe biden? is it that republicans want to paint joe biden's weakness as being the steady, aging hand, perhaps that's now his greatest strength that that's exactly what the country is looking for

in a moment of chaos. i think this is a rallying moment for republicans certainly, it should be for the country on issues of condemning political violence and on self-reflection, national reflection. i don't think it's the unifying political moment that republicans hope it is. we'll see. >> it is interesting and important that everyone is, i think, shaken by how close this was. it is also our job to point out the difference in the response when paul pelosi was bludgeoned with a hammer. there was not a universal condemnation of that act of political violence. >> no, in fact, there was a -- an incredibly unfair attack on paul pelosi personally and on the pelosi family. he was drug through the mud and

allegations were made and repeated by people in responsible places -- >> the ex-president's son, don jr. hideous. >> hideous. and then they made jokes about it. so, listen, there is a temptation to do finger pointing and that's politics, there's a lot of finger pointing in politics. but i do not think the american people believe for one moment that joe biden was responsible by and large -- now, the trump loyalists may believe this, that somehow joe biden was responsible for this happening. what this really is, this is a hardening of our politics, a coarseness of our politics and i have to tell you the truth, i honestly know we can lay more of that at the foot of donald trump than we can of joe biden. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. much more from the republican national convention in the next few moments. we're expecting to see for the very first time j.d. vance --

no, we will see him officially nominated as the republicans' candidate for vice president. when we come back it was just one month ago that donald trump was trash talking the very city that seems to be giving him a very warm welcome right now, miami, wisconsin. security is on the top of everyone seas mind there as well. we will have a chance to speak to the mayor of the largest city in battleground city. next, a shocking maybe not shocking legal decision today, judge aileen cannon dropping entirely the trump classified documents case calling the appointment of special counsel jack smith, quote, unconstitution.nl, quoting liberally from justice clarence thomas. we will tell you what's next in that case and much, much more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. " continues after a quick break. it takes a human to translate that leap in our hearts into something we can see and hold. etsy.

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we ail know this here in milwaukee that this place, this city, it's a welcoming city. even among those -- among those of us that don't align with speakers at the convention, the fact of the matter is this, is that we all want people of this country to succeed. that is how the mayor of milwaukee, a democratic elect owed initial, began his official hosting duties today at the center of this uncharted and frankly unsustainable moment of political violence rearing its head in our country. with the message of unity and safety for his city and for all of the attendees at the republican national convention. joining us now milwaukee mayor cavalier johnson. mr. mayor, thank you for being with us. >> happy to be with you, nicolle. >> just first on the security of

your city, did you make any different requests or decisions after saturday's assassination attempt? >> well, first let me just highlight the fact that what i believe, what we believe in milwaukee in terms of the assassination attempt on mr. trump, that was vile, it was terrible, it was horrible. that should not befall any american, that sort of violence, it doesn't matter if you are a child going to school which we've seen in this country, doesn't matter if you are going to church, going to the grocery store or if you are a candidate for president of the united states. so i've already wished mr. trump a speedy recovery, in fact, he is here in milwaukee and i'm glad that he's doing well and here in the city as the convention moves on here. but it's important to note that the rally that he had this past saturday in pennsylvania is much, much different than the event that we're having this week in milwaukee. the republican national convention is designated as an nsse, which is a national special security event. it is the highest designation

for a security event that you could have in the united states. so by definition it's a more safe, more secure event than what we saw last saturday. >> and what is the feeling -- i mean, i've only seen the sort of live interviews that my colleagues are doing and the attendees seem so happy to be there, they seem to clearly feel able to celebrate the event, which is to them like a political super bowl, i've been to lots of those, but what is sort of the feeling that you detect on the streets there and around your city? >> i mean, in terms of the folks who are attending the convention here, you're right, i mean, folks are having an awesome time in milwaukee. i've talked to so many people from all across the country and really all around the world who are coming to milwaukee, coming to wisconsin, for the first time. they're having wonderful experiences here and i've had so many people come to me and say that they're going to come back here even after this convention is over they will come back here, bring their families here,

spend money here and help to further stimulate our economy. that's exactly what i wanted with the republican national convention was to elevate milwaukee, get it to that ex level so we can attract other large scale levels, business, sports and entertainment or people coming to visit so we can continue to support our economy on the ground and the people with work in milwaukee. >> you and i met when you joined our process after the ex-president described milwaukee in quite derogatory manners using adjectives i think like horrible, if that's a quote. what do you hope mr. trump sees of your great city? >> mr. trump is here and i'm sure he's probably looking out his hotel room right now looking out the window and seeing a vibrant, growing, dynamic city, a city in which republican delegates literally from all over the united states are enjoying their time in. a city that his own party selected to host this convention in. i hope that he sees that just like all the other republicans from around the united states are seeing that this is a fantastic, a marvelous place to

be, especially in the summertime. there's really no place better in the country than milwaukee, wisconsin. >> i want to ask you about the politics that are ahead. you are in the center of a state that's in the center of the battleground fight for -- to determine who the next president of the united states is. we've also covered a lot of the efforts to protect democracy and i know there's being a big legal victory around the issue of drop boxes. tell me how you see the state of the political campaign in wisconsin. >> well, wisconsin is the quintessential state, a state to watch, a bellwether state. typically whoever wins wisconsin tends to win the white house. so as far as i can see it the republican national convention is happening here, that's not any indication, these conventions are not that that party necessarily will win that state. i think from my perspective, what i've seen when i've talked to constituents and when i look across the country folks are interested in the job that president joe biden has been doing. he's been delivering for people not just in milwaukee but in

wisconsin and across the country. you think about the bipartisan work, the bipartisan infrastructure law, the bipartisan chips and science act, the inflation reduction act, the american rescue plan that helped to save milwaukee from insolvency. great policies that have had a wonderful impact across wisconsin and the united states. he's got plans for a second term that i think when sold to the american people as we continue to do that we will convince voters here and elsewhere across the country that joe biden is the one that we need leading our country. i certainly need that, i'm going to chicago as a delegate and proud to support joe biden. >> one of the issues i think that's top of mind especially after this weekend is the threat, the pervasive and indiscriminate threat of guns in this country. i know there was an issue back and forth about guns and the wisconsin state law that allows people to have firearms around the convention. tell me what concerns you have about the way that turned out.

>> look, every single day as mayor of a big city in america i've got concerns about guns because i've said, you know, many times in my position that there are far too many people -- i'm not talking about, you know, law abiding gun owners or anything like that, i'm talking about people who should not have their hands on guns in the first place. i'm talking about felons, domestic abusers, people with long criminal histories, they should not have access to guns, when they do they cause death, harm and destruction on the streets of our city and our state and our country. we would have loved to be in a position to ban guns around the outer perimeter or the soft perimeter at the rnc. we are not able to do that at the local level because it requires state law in order to make that change. the legislature and governor would have to act in order to implement something like that. we do proactively take some measures at the local level to ban things that could be used as projectile weapons like bottles and cans, but when it comes to

guns we were powerless, that's a mart of state law. >> mayor cavalier johnson, i know how busy these weeks and days are, especially the first day. thank you for taking some time out of your schedule to talk to us. we're grateful. >> thank you. >> he's a fantastic mayor, very in touch with the issues in his city and also with the larger issues roiling the country. sort of echoed a lot of our messages condoning political violence. >> yeah. if anyone thinks mayors of large urban cities in america are not attuned to the danger that guns represent, they've never lived in one of those urban centers and they've never tried to govern one of those urban centers. i mean, and that is one of the big divides we have this this country is between rural and urban. i think what you've just seen is a mayor who understands that political violence is pure evil, but he also understands that he doesn't have the tools he needs

because we have decided in america that everybody should have an ar-15, including the young man who shot and tried to kill the former president of the united states. >> it is also notable to me, i once -- i think it was 2017 or '18 -- put on the wall in the big studio everyone trump had insulted and it was like hillary clinton, hamilton, you know, he's insulted the city that seems to be doing a pretty good job hosting his own biggest party of the cycle. >> yeah, and he now says he's going to be a unifying figure on the national stage and i think if we look at his response in butler, you know, he was the one who said fight, fight, fight, which it's hard to ever question in that moment somebody's response, but amid universal condemnation, his reaction was fight, fight, fight. >> and fight whom? >> well, that's the question. who are we fighting? >> to fight whom?

>> the campaign came out with a statement saying let's all unify which was appropriate. i find it refreshing, though, it's heart breaking that brief exchange you had on guns because what i continue to see in this moment is that the dissidents on issues is real. you saw joe biden in his address say we need -- we need to have a conversation about the future of the country and where the parties stand because whether it's guns, access to education and health care, reproductive freedom, the position of the u.s. in the free world, the differences are stark and dramatic and this news cycle will only last so long. it's a moment for history, but the moment you start talking about access to ar-15s by a 20-year-old who wanted to a assassinate a political figure, there are public policy solutions to that. republicans don't want to talk about t democrats do. >> all right. you make a good point. i have to sneak in a break but i will play some of what president joe biden has said who has addressed the nation three times since saturday. after the break we will also turn back to the rnc where

they're set to nominate j.d. vance as their candidate for vice president. david, claire and i will be right back. d i will be right back s is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free.

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then left him to die. his supporters wanted to hang mike pence. >> j.d. vance said he would not have certified those electors. >> can i show you what -- >> think about that. >> j.d. vance was actually confronted by fox's bret baier about all the things j.d. vance said about donald trump. let me show you that. >> well, you know, senator, this is an evolution and i know you've been asked about this before, about past comments that you've made about donald trump. you've said i'm a never trump guy. never liked him. terrible candidate. idiot if you voted for him. might be america's hitler. might be a cynical a-hole. cultural heroine, noxious and reprehensible. >> i was wrong about donald trump. i didn't think he was going to be a good president, he was a great president. >> you know, if the flip-flop doesn't make you throw up in your mouth, the sycophant he has turned into might. >> yeah, i think flip-flopping is baked in in the trump era for

republicans sadly, as i mentioned, that's why i think that the unqualified tag is important, but i think at the base of what you just raised about the reason j.d. vance is now needed is because donald trump's former vice president mike pence has been disenfranchised by republicans but most of donald trump's cabinet won't support the former president either. for a fundamental reason, because donald trump did try to topple democracy with violence and mike pence refused to do it. this is important to the context of what we saw in butler. we don't know the shooter's motivations. let's say it was political violence, politically motivated. that shooter almost interrupted democracy through violence, through a bullet. on january 6 donald trump led an insurrection to interrupt democracy. fortunately nobody was killed but the crowd was chanting "hang mike pence" and donald trump watched as that occurred. >> and sent out a tweet calling him not the p word but we know

from ivanka trump's assistant that that's what he was saying in private. >> and as i've said the nonlegal case here is donald trump laid the predicate of a stolen election, issued the invitation for the mob to come to washington, gave a speech saying go to the capitol with strength not with weakness, this he only respond to strength, there were gallows on the lawn, donald trump watched. donald trump has tried to undermine our democracy and the american voter. the american experience is not guaranteed. our experiment is only protected by the leaders we have. donald trump has shown not to be faithful to the american experiment, it's why mike pence is out and why he wants j.d. vance to be a sycophant. it's also why while we share in the national condemnation, we must not suspend our own judgment about who the candidates are in november. >> or our eyes and ears. you were so elegant, i'm going to be not elegant. if this were dating and trump were the guy and the first

girlfriend that was dating him was mike pence and you say, well, you know, it's not you, it's him, i mean, he left you to actually die, they were chanting "hang mike pence" and he said, yeah, go for it basically, you would warn the next guy that it might happen to you, too. but i actually can't get beyond -- i mean, i've spent eight years covering donald trump and i have had a lot of critics of donald trump on and a lot of people on the right want to point to the media's coverage. no one was been more vicious to donald trump an j.d. vance. he called him a, quote, cynical a-hole. he called him, quote, cultural heroine, he called him, quote, america's hitler. he said this, i mean, hillary clinton's campaign was injured because she called his supporters deplorable. j.d. vance goes further. j.d. vance said, this, quote, you are an idiot if you voted for donald trump. he said he was a, quote, terrible candidate. he described himself as a, quote, never trump guy who, quote, never liked him, donald

trump. >> yeah, and the interesting thing here is what this says about j.d. vance's character. because he says, oh, well, i didn't realize what a great president he was going to be. i've got news for everybody, j.d. vance doesn't believe he was a great president. i don't know any republican senators that believe that donald trump was a great president. and the people that were around him that provided some kind of measure of, no, you can't do that, you can't call up the military to attack protesters in america and, no, you can't do that, you can't go down to the border and just start shooting people, those people are all gone and the idea that they picked this guy shows that they're sure that he would never stand for the constitution before he would stand for donald trump. because he has said that mike pence if he had been the vice president he wouldn't have certified those electors. >> vaughn hillyard is with us, vaughan, i think you were there

eight years ago when donald trump picked mike pence. i guess it took me nine years to work up a well of sympathy for mike pence but poor mike pence isn't even there tonight, he's been a lifelong republican. mike pence went along with all of it up until and then not including the coup. your thoughts. >> reporter: it's hard to get a much more loyal vice president to think than what mike pence was up until january 6, 2021, loyal in terms of the way that donald trump views loyalty. i recall i was in indianapolis when mike pence was formally selected there and i remember the very first interview that he did after being named and it was with hannity and hannity asked him the question what are you going to do in the white house when you disagree with donald trump? and he said at the time that behind closed doors he would have that discussion and tell donald trump why he disagrees with him, but then when the doors open up he would come out and stand shoulder to shoulder with the president.

and for four years he did exactly that until he did not go for it with donald trump's plan to reject the certification of the electoral college votes on january 6. i covered mike pence as he went internationally around the country, three different foreign trips that i went around the world with him on and every step of the way i think he represented the trump administration in the best light that he could in terms of the agenda, in the way that the u.s. is typically been represented by u.s. presidential administrations of both parties. so i think to get to this point here with j.d. vance i think it shows the level of forgiveness that donald trump is willing to offer those who come back to him within this republican party and when mike pence made the decision to go and challenge donald trump for the presidency, he well knew that it was going to be an uphill battle. he had watched liz cheney handily lose, overwhelmingly

lose in her primary against harriet hageman. he watched candidate after candidate go and try to stand up to the trump-backed candidates and yet he still went for it with running for the presidency himself. mike pence is not here in milwaukee today and of course he sent condolences to donald trump here. this is the apparent assassination which i just want to underscore as somebody who has covered these rallies over the last nine years, i think underscores the anxiety that myself as a reporter and so many feel about the state of being able to go out on the campaign trail in today in the year of 2024 but i think mike pence also experienced to a certain degree that fear himself a couple years ago. so this is a moment that i don't think our story we don't understand exactly where it's going, we are living in it in this present time on july 15, 2024, nicolle. >> vaughn hillyard, i know you've been reading project 2025 sort of page by page, this 900 pages -- 600 pages long.

would j.d. vance and his past statements, let me read them again, you are an idiot if you voted for trump, he might be america's hitler, he is a cynical a-hole, he's cultural heroine, obnoxious and reprehensible, would he pass the loyalty test to work in a trump administration if he wasn't the vp pick? >> i'm not sure what the statute of limitationes is on statements for the team putting that personnel together. tell me why vans is intriguing for the project 2025 folks. that's because of the ability to make civil servants and turn them into political appointees. j.d. vance has been on the front lines of articulating that in his words that 90% of the federal workforce in his words are liberals. that at the department and agency level have been barriers to being able to implement conservative policies and that the trump administration for four years was not able to be as

effective as they wanted to be because of liberals in the words of j.d. vance who were in the executive branch under departments and agencies. j.d. vance over the last few years has been on the front lines of calling for what is schedule f, this is something that donald trump signed into an executive action in october of 2020, just before leaving the white house, which converted a great share of federal workers and made them political appointees so that they would be more easily able to be fired and replaced by conservatives who, again, project 2025 building this personnel database led by his former director of personnel in the white house, where they would be able to know who was coming in so they could make a more efficient four years effic donald trump. j.d. vance is somebody who's very astute in understanding how that vision could be implemented at the department and agency levels for a second trump administration. >> the -- i like that david jolly keeps bringing us back to

where the voters will have a say, right? no one's coming to save us. judge aileen cannon tossed what was the most open and shut case according to bill barr and ty cobb and a bunch of trump lawyers. there will be no legal accountability for trump ahead of the federal election. the voters get to decide. and we can understand the voters' ability to do two things at once. they all find political violence reprehensible and they are all deeply concerned about the blueprint and at a policy level that vaughn's talking about project 2025. >> i do think -- time will tell. but what we know for sure in this race is that people are really baked in in their positions. more so than typical. because you have two -- >> claire, here he is. this is j.d. vance walking out on stage. this is following donald trump's announcement about two hours ago that he had selected j.d. vance over marco rubio, over the now discarded mike pence, over

others that have been in the running. and here he is shaking hands. the republican nominee for vice president, author of "hillbilly elegy." somebody who once called donald trump cultural heroin and america's hitler. now shaking hands and giving hugs on the floor of the republican convention. it is such a trumpian moment, david jolly. >> it's terrifying. i really mean that. look, i know a lot of folks on the left may be terrified by his politics and ideology. certainly i'm sympathetic to that. he's unprepared to be president of the united states. and we're 72 hours away from an assassination attempt. you have history, nicolle, with a ticket that has to wrestle with the qualifications of the number two. i think this is a legitimate issue for the american voter. is j.d. vance prepared to be president of the united states? i don't think he is. that's not somebody i feel comfortable taking the 3:00 a.m.

phone call. >> well, and we have on the table in front of us as voters this time a president whose cabinet doesn't support him, whose chief of staff john kelly described him as the most damaged human being he's ever met, his defense secretary jim mattis quit for cause. whose other cabinet officials batted around the 25th amendment at least twice. so if the last cabinet had been successful in invoking the 25th endment vice president mike pence would have become president. this is the trump history as we know it before our very eyes. >> and this is the republican party. i think that's the other thing that's so shocking. they're not skipping a beat with this nomination. there's no question internally about is j.d. vance the right person. and in terms of the institutional resistance within the party i think it's clear that that dies with this pick, there is none. and it's also an indication of what the cabinet would look like in a second trump administration as well as senior personnel. to claire's point i don't think

this race has fundamentally changed at all over the last week to ten days. there are the questions still of joe biden's status within his party but the dynamic between a democratic nominee and a republican nominee when that republican nominee is donald trump and his party, i don't think the dynamics have changed at all coming out of butler. >> the dynamics may not have changed. the polls have shifted dramatically in the last three weeks. and i think battleground democrats, battleground governors who are democrats and battleground senators and members of congress are deeply concerned. >> yeah, the debate was an opportunity for biden to reset. and it didn't reset in terms of him taking the lead in a more definitive way. all these polls are within the margin of error, and time will tell. but keep in mind this guy we're looking at, he absolutely when he ran for the senate told the people of ohio he did not believe there should be an exception for women who have been raped by their stepfathers

in terms of their ability to terminate a pregnancy. he did not believe that there should be any exceptions. and he supports a federal ban. and so he is not someone who is going to appeal to those moderates who don't like either ticket and don't like our politics right now. this isn't the guy that's going to do it for him. >> and he's even to the right of donald trump on abortion who trump in his reptilian sort of political survival skills understands that his own policy that is his creation because he appointed the three people to the supreme court who overturned roe did something that's too extreme for republican voters. >> republicans are out of step on a lot of issues, particularly that one. we see it time and time again. and i took note earlier, laura trump now the rnc co-chair on the floor was asked i believe by garrett haake what about a national abortion ban and she said donald trump makes the final decision and he would support one. let's see how j.d. vance handles

that question as well blauz the history's not kind to him on that one. >> he'll say whatever donald trump wants him to say. i'll make a bold prediction. he will say whatever he thinks donald trump wants him to say. >> but can they be trusted is this issue that voters see. they see through this, right? >> and i think abortion transcends whatever the sort of people staring at the trees and not the forest, abortion is this fundamental issue voters feel in their guts. it's why the results of the 2022 midterms were indiscernible to pundits and pollsters. they were not known until after the voters went to the polls. this is someone whose views on a whole lot of issues are pretty extreme and radical and i would associate myself with david jolly's comments about -- i think what's amazing is that the republican party has just totally memory-holed mike pence. i can't imagine his name gets mentioned all week. but the only reason he's not there with donald trump is because he refused to carry out the coup. >> because he absolutely followed the constitution. he too his oath seriously.

donald trump has never taken an oath seriously, whether it's for better or worse to a wife or whether it is i will uphold the constitution above all other things. mike pence's only sin was to uphold his duty under the constitution. that was his only sin. >> that's amazing. vaughn hillyard, any final thoughts? we lost -- vaughn, any final thoughts? we're watching here. i think we lost vaughn hillyard. we'll try to get him back. if he has any news we'll go to him straight ahead. claire and david are sticking with us. up next much more from milwaukee in this tense and volatile moment for the country. we'll show you what president joe biden had to say about it last night in an address from the oval office. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k break. don't go anywhere. hidden fees, surcharges... who knows what to expect! turn shipping to your advantage. keep it simple...with clear, upfront pricing.

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hi again, everyone. it's now 4:00 in new york city. 5:00. it's 4:00 in milwaukee, where all of the republican action is. it's 5:00 here. we're continuing our coverage on a day obviously chock full of news and time zones. an eventful beginning to the republican national convention. trump has officially been chosen by the delegates as the party's presidential nominee, and he has officially selected his vp. it's ohio senator j.d. vance. vance is expected to be formally nominated any moment now. president joe biden's campaign putting out a statement on trump's selection which reads in part, "donald trump picked j.d.

vance as his running mate because vance will do what mike pence would not do on january 6th, bend over backward to enable trump and his extreme maga agenda, even if it means breaking the law, and no matter the harm to the american people." today's developments set against the tragic backdrop of an attempted assassination on saturday. an attack that is being investigated as an act of domestic terrorism. saturday's shooting left one person dead and two others critically injured. we condemn what took place in the strongest terms possible. violence has no place in our political discourse or in our politics. it's a pivotal moment in america's history whe the stakes of the november election have never been higher or clearer. and it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. nbc news national and political correspondent jacob soboroff is with us. he's in milwaukee on the floor of the republican national convention. with us at the table, democratic strategist, professor at

columb university, msnbc political analyst basil smikle. "new york times" editorial board member, msnbc political analyst mara gay is here. and lucky for us, former republican congressman, msnbc political analyst david jolly stuck around. and claire mccaskill did as well. jacob soboroff, i come to you first. what are you seeing and hearing? >> nicolle, i'm probably 10, 15, 20 yards at moment from j.d. vance right now who's over in the ohio delegation getting ready to accept the nomination as former president trump's vice presidential running mate. we last heard from him quite outspoken speaking out against the biden administration in the wake of the assassination attempt on former president trump's life. people here are excited. i'd be remiss if i didn't say that. he's a young man, 39 years old. he's a millennial from a generation born in the 1980s at the oldest. he and vice president kamala harris represent a new generation of american politics. but i think that's about where the similarities end. he's of course if anybody's read "hillbilly elegy" from a family

that has suffered from so many across the country from overdose and addiction within his family. that nomination is happening right now. but if you listen to him talk closely, his solutions for these problems are related to immigration. they're not related to the substance abuse disorder that so many people are talking about. and that's why president trump -- president biden, excuse me, is talking about him as an extreme maga republican. i'm going to let everybody hear from him and from the folks up here in just a little bit. but i have to tell you, it was unexpected i think. he was in the mix. but today a lot of people were surprised that it ended up being j.d. vance from the state of ohio. we're going to wait right here, nicolle. we're going to try to see if we can catch him on his way out. and that happens it will happen in just a couple of minutes. nicolle? >> jacob, are the folks there sort of aware of some of the things that fox's own bret baier has confronted j.d. vance with in the most generous terms bret baier describing it as an evolution, that he called donald trump a cynical ahole, cultural heroin and america's hitler?

>> yeah. he also called him an idiot, nicolle. and i think that voss ifrs opposition to former president trump is going to be something that j.d. vance will have to answer for. and i'm sure he's prepared to answer those questions. hes wasn't picked like former president trump because of an inability to answer those questions. they've certainly reconciled. they've come together on issues li manufacturing and the decimation of the rust belt. but like i said, their solutions -- the solutions to those issues are ones that the democratic party certainly view as extremist maga policies. and that's i think ultimately we're now seeing the setup of what that debate is going to look like. that's the nomination. let's take a quick listen. >> sure. >> no-nos. >> and the motion is adopted. the ayes have it. the motion is adopted. j.d. vance is the official no, ma'am nooet of the republican party to be the vice presidential candidate alongside donald trump and now the debate over policy begins, nicolle, including some of those issues

you mentioned very clearly, his vociferous opposition to donald trump when donald trump was a nascent candidate for president of the united states. >> basil smikle your thoughts as you watch this. >> the word that i think some people will say is that he has evolved in his positions. i mean, he changed his mind, plain and simple. and he changed his mind out of political expediency. this is a man who raised money for january 6th defendants. let's be very clear that what donald trump -- the statement that this might have been a surprise. but if donald trump was looking for somebody that was a, conservative, b represented the state of ohio and thinking that maybe that would help him in some of those other states, pennsylvania, wisconsin, michigan, and someone who was very, very, very quick to blame joe biden for the shooting. right after the assassination attempt. and to me that signaled this is a man that has donald trump's back no matter what, and if donald trump had seen that weeks ago or felt that weeks ago there was no doubt in my mind that

this was going to be the kind of person he would choose but certainly the person he was going to choose now that we know. >> david jolly, there's something so normal about the stagecraft of a convention, any party's convention, that's so jarring against the backdrop of the moment. >> it is. look, for j.d. vance i think he's aware marco rubio was 15 years ago, which is on the leading edge of the republican political trend. it's just very different. marco rubio's on the leading edge of the tea party movement and let's eliminate cabinet departments and lower taxes, less regulation, all that stuff. with kind of the hard right edge. j.d. vance is on the leading edge of where donald trump has delivered this party eight years after coming down the elevator. and i think what is most shocking about this convention to me, there's kind of the suspension of reality that we are now here eight years later, that of all the conventions you and i have probably been to there used to be platforms with policies that at least made sense in the conservative world. what is remarkable about this

convention is what it's devoid of. because it's been replaced with this cult of personality that allows a j.d. vance to move in through nothing more than through loyalty, blind loyalty if you will to donald trump and trumpism. and i think that will be the theme of this entire convention. it's a weird moment in republican history. >> claire? >> there's been a lot about whether the convention should even continue. you know, they're expensive. >> we didn't have them four years ago. >> yes. we did not have them four years ago. and i've been to my share. and i maybe would put myself in that camp of why do we have them? now, do we -- this was by acclimation. there was no discussion. the platform does not reflect this candidate's view on abortion because donald trump had the platform changed in the most cynical move you could possibly imagine after he delivers a death knell to

essential women's freedoms in this country. him personally doing it, wanting to do it, campaigning on doing, bragging about doing it. now he wants to soften the platform. so it is really interesting to me that this party is -- you're not going to see the republicans featured on the dais that the old republican party would feature. you're not going to see someone who stands up for ukraine on that dais. this is a guy who fought mitch mcconnell over aid to ukraine. this is a guy who wants us to be an isolationist country. that wasn't the republican party platform that you knew when you were involved in republican politics. there won't be anybody on that dais that is about capitalism, free trade, leading the world, voice of freedom, setting an example for the rest of the world. it's going to be about isolationistism. it's going to be about cultural issues.

and that's not -- that's not the republican party that a lot of republicans are comfortable with. >> i read "hillbilly elegy." and it's pretty special. what's amazing about it is that the journey could have landed you at a place where the poverty story is the commonality. it's this -- i don't know if you read it. >> i did, actually. >> it's like the beating heart of sort of the pain and the poverty which he grew up in. and instead of taking the poverty of sort of -- it's about white pain and poverty and addiction and substance abuse. and instead of finding the connection in poverty he used it to go to the cultural radicalization of white grievance. >> that's right. i did read it years ago when it first came out. >> me too. >> part of the reason i read it, actually, my mother is white. this is a story that could have been told about my own family, which actually comes from michigan. we've also suffered -- the family has a history of addiction and alcohol addiction, drug addiction.

but most of my family members, though they are not college graduates, are union members. not all but many. and they led -- their experiences lead them to a very different conclusion. they happen to be democrats. it's really not about the partisanship. it's about the fact that they believe in a very different america and they are moving forward toward an america where j.d. vance could have taken that kind of experience. and so of course we can always disagree. we don't all have to come to the same conclusion. the issue that i take with that kind of cultural warrior and that kind of story is the entire erasure of the experiences of people who are in poverty and they're white and they come to a different conclusion. >> right. >> or they live in poverty and they're not white. those are just as american as the people j.d. vance writes about. i think it's tragic that after writing so eloquently about his family years later he could come to, as basil said, change his

mind and decide he's going to be part of the movement that is filled with hatred and grievance. my first thought when i heard the name was, though i wasn't surprised at the pick, we just talked about for the past several days how important it is to turn down the temperature in this country. and j.d. vance is not the person to do that. this is essentially an endorsement of a man who said in the wake of the attempted assassination attempt that biden -- biden's rhetoric, quote, led directly, unquote, to trump's attempted assassination. so it is r this is not going to turn down the temperature. and i also just think donald trump is an era right now, moment where he's trying to convince americans who are on the fence or americans who aren't excited about the democratic ticket that he's softer than he really is. don't worry, i'm going to shift this position on abortion after already taking your rights away.

this is the real trump movement, what we're seeing today. i hope americans are clear about that. j.d. vance is even farther to the right, as you said a few moments ago, nicolle, than donald trump is. and i think as trump tries to distance himself from project 2025 this pick is going to make that even more difficult. >> if i could just say really quickly mara's point is something i want to build off of. because i'm a gen x-er. if you think of gen x-ers and millennials. we are the ones -- we are children of white flight. we're the children of the civil rights movement. it was sort of our job working across the aisle and across race and ethnicity to try to -- as somebody said earlier, implement all that was done before us into our neighborhoods, into our institutions. and what we've seen over the course of the last several years particularly as a backlash to the obama presidency but even before that is just a deepening and a hardening of positions where there is no incentive, a

disincentive in fact to have the kinds of conversations that we were talking about. and so i just even as a person that does a lot of education policy, even the fact that we could be dealing with this in k-12 education, in civics classes and debate classes and we don't is partly what led -- what is leading to this incredible divide that certainly j.d. vance and donald trump have worked to exploit in many ways. and that's why over the past week i've been saying if you're a democrat you have to come to this fight with your chest out and your back straight. this is about, as you were saying earlier, signs of strength. you know, how are we going to fight this? how is that going to get pushed back? and it doesn't happen by having these broad conversations you shouldn't be having out in the open. >> like what? say more. >> well, no, just that -- look, there are a lot of people that were calling for joe biden to step down and in the same breath were not saying that the person next should be kamala harris.

and i wonder why. because if many ways -- >> who did that? >> i think most of the people who came out to say joe biden should step down did not come right out and say kamala harris should be next. >> kamala harris should be next if anyone thinks joe biden -- as someone who's covered her, if anyone has watched -- i've watched all of her speeches for the last two weeks. i thought she was fantastic four years ago. anyone that hasn't -- i hope that j.d. vance today challenges kamala harris to some debates because she would wipe the floor with him. i will stay out of whatever the democrats decide to do at the top of the ticket. but if they make a change kamala harris should be the top of the ticket. >> absolutely right. i don't mean to bring up something that seems to be this upsetting but -- >> we'll work it all out. keep talking. >> the reality is, and i said this, that i don't know if my party knows even how to defend her when the attacks come. and they will come. and they will come. >> have them call me because -- let me just say this.

i have only covered her -- and this is where -- you watched her dismantle bill barr. how many people can say -- you put your list of application v accomplishments together and if you can put on it destroyed bill barr, made fun of mike pence and the fly on his head without saying a word, and have hit the campaign trail with enough vigor to carry the whole ticket for the last 16 tickets. she's ready. >> absolutely right. i've written about it, i've talked about it. and what concerns me and goes back to your point about signs of strength, the party can do this. the party can do this. they can fight this fight. they can push back. project 2025 -- i've been saying since the beginning i'm with joe biden. as long as he's in, i'm in. there's no question in my mind. >> should he be in? >> if he wants to stay in he should stay in. he's got 3,896 delegates and he

said come take them. i'm not going to be one to suggest he should go do that. and if we go back just for a quick second to project 2025, because this is where if donald trump wants to distance himself from it the person that we're talking about, j.d. vance, is the person to implement it if not him. and get everybody in line on the ground to make sure that's all implemented. and so in my conversations and in talking to voters about what's coming next it's important not to just focus on donald trump but an every implementer that he appoints because these are the folks that are going to be day-to-day transforming our institution cycle. back to the point i always mike, it's 180 days from day one. >> exactly. and they have it on paper this time. there were stories at the beginning they didn't know where the lights were in the roosevelt room. it's the only time i had the impulse to help them. they have plans this time. we have breaking news. president joe biden just sat down with our colleague lester holt for an exclusive interview. it airs in its entirety tonight.

they discussed the president's choice of language in the days before the assassination attempt on donald trump. let's listen to some of that interview. >> well, let's talk about the conversation this has started. and it's really about language, what we say out loud and the consequences of those. you called your opponent an existential threat on a call a week ago you said it's time to put trump in the bullseye. there's some dispute about the context. but i think you appreciate -- >> the crosshairs, i was talking about focus on -- the truth of the matter is what i was talking about at the time was there's very little focus on trump's agenda. >> the term is bullseye. >> it was a mistake to use the word -- i didn't say crosshairs. i said bullseye. i meant focus on him. focus on what he's doing. focus on his policies, focus on the number of lies he told in the debate. there's a whole range of things -- look, i'm not the guy

who said i want to be a dictator on day one. i'm not the guy who refused to accept the outcome of the election. i'm not the guy who said i wouldn't accept the outcome of this election automatically. you can't only love your country when you win. and so the focus was on what he's saying. and i mean the idea -- >> have you taken a step back and done a little soul searching on things that you may have said that could incite people who are not balanced? >> well, i don't think -- look, how do you talk about the threat to democracy, which is real, when a president says things like he says. do you just not say anything because it may incite somebody? look, i have not engaged in that rhetoric. now, my opponent has engaged in that rhetoric. he talks about there being a bloodbath if he loses. talking about how he's going to forgive all the -- actually i

guess suspend the sentences of all those who were arrested and sentenced to go to jail because of what happened in the capitol. i'm not out there making fun of women -- like remember the picture of donald trump when nancy pelosi's his band was hit with the hammer going talking about, joking about it? >> claire, perfectly acceptable line of questioning. but i guess i take david jolly's points, that there is only one candidate running who is running on a platform that celebrates the insurrectionists, that is running on a platform that includes pardoning those who carried out a deadly insurrection. >> and i think it's important, and i want to just gently correct my friend, that there was someone who died on january 6th. in fact, if you look -- >> several have died by suicide since. >> by the way, the woman who died on january 6th had

something in sxhon with the person who died on saturday. they were trump supporters who died. trump has not expressed in my opinion the kind of compassion he needs to be expressing about that man and his family. and joe biden oozes empathy. joe biden has never given a speech that was focused on dividing our country and focused on solely grievance. joe biden, the whole reason for running in the first place was he was so worried about the hate that was on display with those tiki torches and the chanting, the nazi chants that the demonstrators -- and the death of the woman there. listen, i want joe biden to push back hard on lester holt in that

moment to say don't compare me with this guy. don't compare me with this guy in terms of the rhetoric. it's not fair to joe biden to compare his rhetoric to that of donald trump. now, listen, basil and i might disagree slightly in that right after the debate, as you well know, nicolle, i spoke what i saw. i never said he should drop out. i said it's going to take a few weeks for us to figure this out. but what i saw tonight is what many americans have expressed from the very beginning of this race, and that was a fear that while they like joe biden's policies they're worried about his age. and that has not gone away. >> it's true. >> and nothing that's happened in the last two weeks has magically made that disappear. in fact, i just saw i apoll this morning that 58% of the democrats in virginia do not think joe biden should be the nominee. this isn't elites in washington saying this. these are voters that are being -- the guy who put in my

a.v. system in my house called me. the guy who drives me -- who gave me a ride to the airport in st. louis talked to me about it. this is a concern that's real. do i think that joe biden is anything other than a wonderful man who has done wonderful things -- of course. and can he be president of the united states again? yes, he can. but i think it's fair for our party because we are not a gaslighting party. i think it's fair for our party to have an honest discussion about it. and i think it's what many of us have done. and we've gotten wiped with this swipe that somehow because we thought that discussion was a good one to have that somehow we were saying that joe biden needs to get out of town. nobody -- i'm not aware of very many people -- >> let me pull mara in because you work on the board and contributed to an opinion that was published in the "new york times" that joe biden should step aside. let me add to this just as the coms person, there was one way to answer that question and it was lester, should i use the

word bullseye or crosshairs? no. but the fbi director that donald trump selected, his name is christopher wray and he testified under oath before congress that the greatest threat to this country is not is no longer foreign trorms, it's domgs violent extremism and inside that threat the biggest bucket by far is right-wing domestic violent extremism, so go talk to them. >> that's right, nicolle. and one of the reasons our editorial board actually called for biden to drop out after the debate is the concern that he may not be able to make the case for himself in exactly the way that we just saw. of course he can serve -- he's been a great president. but you have to get elected to serve as president. and so that is the concern right now. i don't see that going away. of course we also say in that editorial that if the president does remain on the ticket that we would, if the election were today, we would endorse joe biden today. that has not changed either. and i think it's important that

this election be about much more than joe biden because it is. it's about the millions of americans who want to continue to live in a democracy, who want to continue to enjoy the freedoms that we've had for the past 60 years. and i think those of us -- it's not about democrats. those of us who are committed to that democracy and that vision are going to have to make that case day in and day out, here and everywhere. >> the opportunity is the people who would suffer the most are the people represented in the polls -- >> 75% of them are saying, and it is our job to not shut out their voices. it is the job of the elites to lift up some of the people who don't have voices, and they're responding to the polls in those numbers. >> i have to tell you too, i've been traveling the country on assignment for the "times" for the past seven months talking to mostly democratic voters of all backgrounds. these are not elite people. i'm talking to them in grocery stores, in parking lots, in all kinds of places and i'm hearing the same thing from voters young and old. they like joe biden, they trust

joe biden but they think he's too old to be president and that they're very concerned that he can't beat donald trump. so this is not some elite concern. it's also i think been cast as though it's only a concern among white voters. that's not true either. and so i just think that it's important that we -- polls aren't perfect but they are one measure of what's going on. and i think also the fact that we had so many fewer people voting in last year's democratic primary could be concerning for the white house. i mean, it shows a concern about enthusiasm. listen, i don't think that the democrats that are concerned about joe biden are going to vote for donald trump. >> no. >> correct. >> i think the issue that -- excuse me, that the president has in this re-election campaign is about enthusiasm. and i think increasingly about just a steadiness in this

campaign. that's what voters are expressing. ultimately, though, again, this election has to be about more than joe biden. i hope the president knows that too. i believe he does. i believe he deeply cares about this country that he's served so ably for all these years. and that's why i think, again, it's incumbent upon all of us who continue to want a democracy to make the case not just for joe biden but for the country -- >> and for democracy. how are you dealing with -- because i know everyone sitting here is getting it, right? my audience of vaurz i think feels like something is broken, that i've broken the faith because i've covered the debate as i saw it and i've covered the polls. you must get some of this too being on the editorial board that's written this. how are you doing? >> i have -- listen, we're used to taking heat, all of us. i have never heard angrier -- more anger than i have from

friends, acquaintances, neighbors, some of my friends from high school. these are democrats who basically said don't air dirty laundry. and they believe that any discussion of this is just harming who will be our inevitable nominee in their eyes. and what i say is that there is still time, actually. and i also say that, again, it's incumbent upon us not from a partisan perspective because this isn't about supporting the democratic party at all. i'm a journalist. but from the perspective again of wanting to see democracy continue and to hold on to our freedoms that we make the strongest case that we can to win at the ballot box in november with the best candidate. and anything short of that is not going to be enough to save this country. >> i have my back to you so i

didn't mean to -- it's the worst place to sit. but i'm glad that she platformed that because this is what's really happening and i feel like the mission of this show was to always close the gap between what people are texting and not saying on tv and what's actually on the air. and let me just add this. i mean, on friday we led the show at 5:00 with sort of a look at what project 2025 would do on immigration. and i went back and listened to the propublica tapes. i didn't air them. i should have. and i will again. of the audio of the child separation policy. and the truth is what we say doesn't matter at all. i don't actually -- i haven't said on the air what i think joe biden -- i shouldn't have a vote or a voice. the democrats should figure that out. but what's at stake is -- those were babies under 1 year old. i have a baby under 1 year old. and they were ripped from their mothers' hands. the people that suffer if the pro-democracy coalition comes up short -- we're trying to figure out what to do right now. the babies that will be ripped from their mothers' hands in numbers and scales that trump didn't even dream of doing in

the first term because he still had exposure under the criminal law. he doesn't have that anymore. the supreme court said he's completely immune for official acts. and you don't think he'd describe immigration as official you are smoking something i want a bit of. >> that's right. >> what he would do to the vulnerable, to the poor, to the weak, to the migrants, to the asylum seekers, it is criminal. and if we can't have an honest discussion on the pro-democracy side about the best way to defeat donald trump and j.d. vance then we're screwed, basil. >> and you know, basil and i are in total agreement because you know what we're in agreement of? and every democrat is. and i'm a proud democrat. we are totally in agreement that the most important thing we have to do is defeat donald trump. there is total unity there. an open discussion about the best way to do that over a short period of time is not a bad thing for our party i believe. >> i absolutely agree and don't disagree with any of that. i just -- as you were talking it reminded me of something. what is the line, that the arc of the moral universe is long

but it bends toward justice? i always think about who's doing the bending. it's poor people. it's people of color. it's black folks in neighborhoods like i grew up in. and it's coalitions that get built in moments like this. and that's why what was upsetting to me then, a week or so ago, was that we weren't having that -- we weren't making that singular point that joe biden and kamala harris are the best to restore democracy. i wanted that point to come through loud and clear, and i felt that it was not coming through loud and clear enough. and it takes moments like what happened yesterday where i feel in many ways that this country is somewhat inured to the kind of violence that we normally 30 years ago, 40 years ago we wosh shocked by. we're now somewhat desensitized by it. but i wanted the country to not be desensitized by the things that are happening day to day that donald trump has promised

to -- in project 2025 and for the party to say whatever you think about joe biden on his worst day he is orders of magnitude better than donald trump on his best day. >> no question. >> and i just wanted that message to come out of the -- >> whatever you think of joe biden he is better than donald trump on his -- joe biden's better on his worst day than trump on his best. but donald trump is winning. and i think the crisis exists because if you can read a poll joe biden by joe biden's standards is a dozen points behind where he was four years ago. >> my sense is that -- and i think we touched on this. that they're not democrats who are going to vote for donald trump at this point. >> correct. >> so many of those -- many of those voters are probably going into a column that's some wla like an undecided column. they just want to wait and see. they need to see as i mentioned before a sign of strength from the party. now, i think that that can come from joe biden. if the party believes that it could come from somebody else two things need to happen. a, you need to have that

conversation. b, that conversation is not an easy one. and it doesn't include all the people who already cast their ballot. it's a smaller group of folks. and we have to be in my view and what i've been saying is very careful that we don't fall into the same trap that we accused donald trump of doing on a day-to-day basis and undermining, usurping the sort of will of the voter to some extent. that has always been my concern. but no matter what is done you've got to just come out -- and we're doing this. but just come out with the statement that joe biden, kamala harris are the only -- is the only ticket that's going to bring back democracy. >> joe biden and kamala harris are the only tickets -- in any formation or incarnation. david jolly. >> we're all friends. and to the viewing family that think there's daylight, we're all moving in the right direction. the polls might be closer if we continue to talk about the stakes and not the race.

this is where i think basil and i agree. we all saw the debate. we all came out with the concern. we all understood "the new york times" editorial. but joe biden said he's staying in. and the only mechanism to kick him out is to challenge him at the convention. he's staying in. and even after he said he's staying in democrats have spent two weeks prosecuting the case against their own nominee who on last friday in detroit presented us with the stakes in this race and two visions for america, one donald trump's and one joe biden's. and if -- i hope, i thought coming out of butler democrats would say you know what, let's lay down the swords, focus on prosecuting the case against donald trump. if they don't do that, the race is over. this thing is done. if democrats do not unify behind the nominee who said i'm not dropping out, the race is over. if there's a way privately to convince joe biden to make a different decision, great. but this public airing, this festivus that democrats are having right now is a disaster

politically for democrats and for the country. >> there's no question this is joe biden's decision -- >> but he made it. >> to be fair to where the story is, i mean, the stories are sourced from high-level people in the biden orbit who would like -- >> from the white house. >> who would like the president to make a different decision and believe his wife and son are shielding him from information like polls. >> i get the disagreement. but again, the principal said i'm running. i don't know what comes from saying we don't want the principal to make that decision. i mean, in detroit on friday night that guy was awesome. and he said i'm going to win. >> he's been steady since saturday. >> you might see the debate again, you might see moments you feel are disqualifying. but if democrats every time they think that joe biden's disqualified have this airing of grievances the race is done. it's over. >> and that's why actually to you are why point about the conventions the one thing -- what's really good about conventions is that they frame

your choice. they frame the choice for the voter. and one of the best speeches that doesn't get talked about a lot, but i teach students about this speech. 2004 -- >> can we come to your class? >> absolutely. please come speak to the class. 2004 bill clinton at the democratic national convention. one of the best speeches of framing the choice for the voter. and i think whatever happens in the next couple of weeks that needs to come clear that this choice is very clear, there is no both sides, that there is one side that cares about democracy and the other side that does not. >> the last word. >> i just have to say that this election has to be cast by not just democrats, by all of us not only as a singular choice but this is about more than joe biden. this is actually not about joe biden. this is about women who want to keep their reproductive care. this is about americans who want to keep their voting rights. this is about people who want to continue to live in a country where our identities aren't

attacked, where we aren't attacking people for being gay or transgender or attacking immigrants, we want to live in a multiracial democracy of pluralism. that's what this is about. and i think unfortunately that the people who have pushed joe biden to stay in and some who have been calling for him to drop out have made this more about joe biden than about the rest of america. this is about a country to save. this is not about a man's career or comeback. this is not about donald trump either. this is about a democracy. are we going to keep it? are we going to continue it? or are we going to watch it fall away? >> that's exactly right. perfectly put. thank you, guys, for keeping it real. i love it. you know that scene in "silver linings playbook" where they fight, i've got nothing but love for all of you. my thanks to mara gay, claire mccaskill, basil smikle, david jolly. the best of the best. when we come back we'll turn to the other huge bombshell story of the day.

legal catastrophe, frankly. the complete dismissal of the mar-a-lago classified documents case against ex-president donald trump by judge aileen cannon. we just received a statement about the future of the case from special counsel jack smith. we'll read it to you after a very short break. don't go anywhere. i was five years old when i came to st. jude. i'll try and shorten down the story. so i've been having these headaches that wouldn't go away. my mom, she was just crying. what they said, your son has brain cancer. it was your worst fear coming to life. watching your child grow up is the dream of every parent. you can join the battle to save the lives of kids like brayden, by supporting st. jude children's research hospital . families never receive a bill from st. jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food, so they can focus on helping their child live .

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today an important update out of florida, where judge aileen cannon has completely dismissed donald trump's classified documents case,

saying jack smith's appointment as special counsel in and of itself violated the appointments clause of the constitution. this move by judge cannon, who has been slow-walking the case for months now, all but cements that this case will not go to trial before the presidential election. judge cannon's ruling goes against years of precedent. but she does mention one guy. supreme court justice clarence thomas's questioning of jack smith's appointment that he laid out in his concurring opinion in the highest court's immunity ruling. she cites supreme court justice clarence thomas's opinion not once, twice, but three times in her 93-page ruling to justify her dismissing this case. as for jack smith, in a statement just released a few minutes ago he says this, quote, the dismissal of the case deviates from the uniform conclusion of all previous courts to have considered the issue, that the attorney general is statutorily authorized to appoint a special counsel. the justice department has authorized the special counsel to appeal the court's order.

joining our coverage, politico national correspondent, msnbc contributor betsy woodruff swan. plus former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. with me at the table for the rest of the hour former top prosecutor at the department of justice, msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann. your thoughts. >> so that statement is interesting for a number of reasons. one, that it's issued so quickly. you have to remember that this is a case where the attorney general and the solicitor general know the law extremely well and know just how wrong this decision is. we have had special counsels under republican and democratic administrations. we have had republican and democratic judges appointed by republican and democratic presidents who have said this is totally legal, including judges appointed by donald trump. so this is a total outlier decision. it is important to note that judge cannon's reasoning is that

the special counsel is somehow untethered to the department of justice, untethered to the executive branch and is sort of off on this frolic and detour without it being sufficiently part of the administration. note to self. that is the exact opposite of what donald trump is saying. donald trump is saying that the special counsel is part of the weaponized department of justice. but that statement that you just read was so interesting because it said the justice department had to authorize the appeal. meaning it's exactly why judge cannon's wrong. this is not one where the special counsel can say i can do whatever i want. the special counsel's part of the department of justice. they had to appeal -- to do the appeal they had to get the justice department to agree. they can't just do whatever they want. i know that firsthand from when i was work forget a special counsel. >> so what happens? >> so this is a case that if they do appeal, the signs are

that they will, the 11th circuit i think will reverse. they have the ability. the main issue i think we're all going to watch for is whether they remove her. remember, they have reversed her twice already. so they could remove her. jack smith could ask for it. but even if he doesn't ask for it, they still could remove it. my big issue is focussing on the supreme court because the 11th circuit is not the last word. and as you noted, justice thomas basically laid out a gratuitous road map for judge cannon which she followed to the letter in her ruling. and so the real issue is whether the supreme court will take this case and do something as erratic as it did in the immunity decision. >> joyce, does exactly what thomas said. what's going on? >> it's important to note, and andrew and i have discussed this, justice thomas only picked

up one other vote, or rather his own vote for this concurrence. no other justice joined him. so concurrences are not precedent. they're not binding law. and that's part of what fueled this quick decision that jack smith got permitting him to take the appeal. i don't think we can underscore this enough. as a sitting u.s. attorney if i didn't like a decision that a district judge made i had to call up the solicitor general and ask for permission before i could take an appeal. and that's what happened here. that's the limits, the outer limits of jack smith's authority. and that really is a great argument that the government will be able to make on appeal here when they take up judge cannon's suggestion that jack smith is out there freelancing. it took the 11th circuit in december of '22, it took them nine days and 21 pages to tell judge coop that she had gotten it wrong that she didn't have jurisdiction, that her legal reasoning was beyond the pale. one hopes that they will do that same thing here.

i think we live in an age where it's hard not to look at how close we are to the election and wonder if that might not have some influence. but these are judges who are sworn to set aside political concerns and other concerns and make their decisions based only on the facts and the law. this is a terrible decision. it takes her 93 pages to conclusion, contrary to every other judge to consider this issue, that the attorney general lacked the authority to appoint jack smith. i think we'll see it reversed on appeal. it's just a bad decision. >> betsy woodruff swan, even if that does happen, the delay was the legal strategy on trump's part. it's a delay on prevailing in november. it's just amazing and important to remind folks that this is a case where evan corcoran's notes were included because a judge saw crimes that happened. so that privilege was pierced. the crime fraud exception. bill barr and ty cobb have been all over television talking about how open and shut the government's case against donald trump is. this is also a case that sue

gordon and others who know what goes into the kinds of classified documents and national defense information that trump hoarded at mar-a-lago and refused to return after asked i think eight times by the fbi. this is not just pieces of paper. it's information with human lives. some have been lost. some anonymously. people that will never have their names on roads or street signs or memorials for them. but people who in some instances lose their lives trying to gather intelligence to serve the american government. >> yeah, it's america's undoubtedly most sensitive national security secrets. and now at least among the people close to trump advising him and allied with him there's almost complete confidence that this case won't go to trial before the election. and what that means is if trump is elected in november and goes on to become president that whoever he appoints as attorney general is all but certain to have the case thrown out, to

withdraw charges and essentially put this thing to bed permanently. i spoke with tim parlatore, who is a defense lawyer for trump working on some of this material before he departed trump's legal team. and what he told me this morning is trump wouldn't even have to tell his attorney general pick to throw the case out, to withdraw any charges, but rather anybody who trump selected to lead the justice department is just immediately going to know that that's what's expected and anyone trump chooses if he's elected to fill that role would be very much a total ally to a potential next term of trump being president. trump is thinking about who he would want to have as his attorney general if he's elected. that's going to be the most, i believe, the most sensitive decision that he will be considering as his campaign expands and beefs up its transition process. it's a decision that he's going

to make himself. and this ruling from cannon is going to be front of mind as he considers it. >> unbelievable. much more ahead on this story. no one's going anywhere. but we do need to fit in a short break. stay with us. ♪ ♪

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we will send you this save the children® tote bag as a thank you for your support. your small monthly donation of just $10 could be the reason a child in crisis survives. please call or go online to hungerstopsnow.org to help save lives today. so what would you do if you wanted justice for this most obvious and egregious and brazen of crimes? >> well, there's no way that it's going to get to trial before the election. there is the mar-a-lago,

florida, case, but what i do give it in this decision, this is a decision about technicalities saying that the special counsel didn't have the authority but a u.s. attorney would have the authority. so step one is is i'd go to the u.s. attorney's office and go, really, i can't do it as special counsel? fine, hire me -- i'm already an employee, make me part of the attorney's office -- >> in south florida. >> exactly. and two ahead and indict. that's something that's very, very fast. that sort of process of bringing new indictment can happen in a couple days. so that's one step, which is basically if you think that's the technical violation, i totally disagree with you, but rather than engage in the whole legal rigmarole and the time, you can solve that issue. you think that's the issue, here we go. and then the second thing is you can get permission to seek to remove her because the argument is that this decision is so off kilter that all eight judges who

have ever had this issue have disagreed, different administrations have all disagreed. donald trump's own administration has disagreed. and so you can say, you know what, this is three strikes and you're out. she's already been reversed twice, you can go to the 11th circuit and say this was wrong. you can go to the chief judge and say that she should be taken off the case. so those are the two possibilities to sort of essentially get this back on track. >> but see, this is the best case scenario in terms of trump escaping accountability for crimes that are -- the indictment has most of them taking place on tape and videotapes and audiotapes and security camera footage and paper. >> yeah, that's right, and now it very much seems like the legal system is not going to be able to address these allegations prior to election day. so it's up to voters. to andrew's point about the fact that jack smith could

theoretically seek to join a u.s. attorney's office and reindict that way, it's actually -- it's very important for people to remember and something to keep an eye out in the long term is whether there's a pendulum swing against special counsels as we go into either a second biden term or a second term of trump's presidency. biden himself, his white house, sent blistering screens to the justice department before rob hur's report was released suggesting that at least when it came to his prosecution, they had concerns in principle about whether or not these reports rabiding unindicted people -- so not donald trump in this case -- go too far. and at the same time, if there's any big takeaway from the nontrump justice department stories of 2024, it's that u.s. attorney's offices and the parts of doj that aren't part of the special counsel's office are really good at handling

sophisticated cases. look no further than senator menendez's prosecution. >> another break for us, we'll be right back. us, we'll be right back. (♪♪) and you realize you're in love... steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent. welcome to the wayborhood. with wayfair, finding your style is fun. [ music playing ] yes! when the music stops grab any chair, it doesn't matter if it's your outdoor style or not. [ music stops ] i'm sorry, carl. this is me in chair form. i don't see you. -oh, come on. this one's perfect for you. but you. love it. i told you we should have done a piñata. i explained it so many times. um-hum. they're not sitting. -and it rocks... you need to sit down. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪

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