funding. >> reporter: jose, the director of i.c.e. also told me they need more resources so they can go after migrants like those you saw who cross the border and are later found to have criminal convictions. as for those two men, they're in detention awaiting deportation hearings. >> julia ainsley, thank you. i'm jose diaz-balart. thank you for the privilege of your time. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for nicolle wallace. we were promised a kinder, gentler donald trump. we were promised for the big finale of the republican national convention, donald trump would debut a new message of unity.

we were told donald trump rewrote his own convention speech in light of the assassination attempt last saturday. in the end and perhaps to no one's surprise, couldn't get there. instead of disciplined, we got rambling with trump delivering a 92-minute so 'lil kwi. instead of a message of unity and bridge building, trump fell back on old grievances and a dark vision of america. axios reports, quote, the new donald trump soothed and silenced the nation for 28 minutes and then the old trump returned and barked and bored america for 64 minutes more. it was that, at that 28-minute mark, that trump seemed to lose his battle with impulse control. it was billed as trump's golden opportunity to rehabilitate his image and it spiralled out of control. we're not going to make you relive all of it.

watch this. >> they're coming at levels we've never seen before. it's an invasion indeed and this administration does absolutely nothing to stop them. they're coming from prisons. they're coming from jails. they're coming from mental institutions and insane asylums. you know, the press is always on me because i say this. has anyone seen "silence of the lambs"? the late, great hannibal lecter. he would love to have you for dinner. crazy nancy pelosi the whole thing, boom, boom, boom. then that horrible, horrible result that we'll never let happen again. the election result. we'll never let that happen again. >> we have heard this rhetoric from trump before. but this time trump was supposed to be trying really, really hard to be softer and polite and

somehow unifying. this time it comes as democrats wrestle with an existential crisis about the future of their nominee, president joe biden. zoe lofgren joined the chorus of democrats calling for president biden to step aside. while donald trump may have squandered last night's opportunity to unify the nation, whether that will blunt the calls for joe biden to step aside, we simply do not know. that is where we start this hour with senior political reporter that "washington post" aaron blake and msnbc analyst david bluff, charlie sykes and host of politics nation, the reverend al sharpton. charlie, i start with you. this was reported that trump was not going to say president

biden's name during last night's speech, he was going to stay away from that and elevate himself. he couldn't do it. he went there anyway. >> what this administration, the damage this administration has done -- i say it often. if you took the ten worst presidents in the history of the united states, think of it, the ten worst, added them up they will not have done the damage biden has done. i'm not going to use the name anymore. biden. just one time. the damage he's done to the country is unthinkable. >> he resorted to old tactics. does donald trump's performance last night, the rambling, undisciplined rhetoric change the calculation for democrats by underscoring how vulnerable trump is by letting him be himself and let him do what he

does? >> i don't know that it changes the calculation. it reminds everybody who donald trump is, a man incapable of self-control. i think the democrats need to look at him and go why are we not beating this guy? why is this convicted if long, man found liable for rape, why is this ranter, raver leading in the polls? the extraordinary thing about watching that was how boring he was in that particular venue. briefly before the convention started we were sitting in the empty hall watching the rehearsal for all this as they were pumping up the music and lights and kid rock. i remember thinking to myself, you know, all donald trump has to do is come out -- all he has to do is come out and say i'm here and this crowd was so excited and so engaged. it's an accomplishment to go from that level of excitement and anticipation to the boredom

at the end to watch these delegates yawning and looking at their watches. all of this is a reminder who and what donald trump is, but also all of his flaws and vulnerabilities. democrats need to ask themselves, okay, we know all this. we've known this for eight years. why are we at the moment we are right now? >> such a good question. david, let me pick it up and ask you. you've got "the new york times" columnist calling trump's speech win of the truly awful and self-indulgent political performances of our time. david french called the speech boring. he said trump has many flaws, but he's rarely boring. on the last night of the convention he was. trump couldn't resist turning to his familiar darkness, wiping out the entire effort to rehabilitate and high the real him. did you see anything, david, to -- to charlie's point, did

you see anything in trump's speech last night that should make democrats feel optimistic he's the same guy, promoting the same hateful ideology and doing it in the same degrading tactics? >> well, i think you know waiting in the finals is a team you can beat. you have to make sure you have the right team coming out of your conference. so i think that -- in presidential politics there's two lay-ups. your announcement speech. then if you're the nominee, your convention speech. it's awfully hard to screw it up, and he did. i think now we should remind ourselves however that the vast, vast, vast majority of people voting in this election, including the swing voters, certainly people who are considering whether to vote at all, aren't going to see the speech. they'll see some clips. to the extent they see he was

unhinged, that's helpful. the moment that needs to be circled whether it's joe biden or kamala harris or somebody else facing off on him -- reminder, most people who don't watch the debate will experience it 24 hours after that on instagram, tiktok and social media sites. it was a blown opportunity for trump. i think it reminds democrats that this is somebody who you can defeat. we know in '16 and '20 he was a terrible vote getter. narrowly won the electoral college in '16. led to historically bad election outcomes for his own party. this is not somebody in the hall of fame of vote getting. however, he's a couple points stronger this time than last time. more like 47-48 in the battlegrounds. democrats have to pull votes off

him. get democrats more excited. win undecided. pull vote off him. sure, listen, if everyone who is going to vote in this election was forced to watch that speech last night, some of those people would flee from him. that's the challenge in the presidential campaign. prosecute a case against him every day, every hour so that you win what exists out there, which is still the majority of people who don't want a return of donald trump to the white house. >> rev, to dave's point about putting your best team forward, the question right now about the position the democrats find themselves in, let me share with you in the last couple hours -- last night senator jon tester joined the chorus, now zoe lofgren, somebody very influential, well-known in democratic politics. you spoke to the president recently. give us a sense of the landscape

and whether or not the more names that come out adds weight to his decision. >> when i spoke with him last monday, he assured me he was in the race. he was proud of what he had done. we talked about somethings we did together in terms of the civil rights community, me and others working with him on the george floyd act and other things. he said, al, i'm not giving this up. i want to finish the task. i want you to hear it from me. i'm in. this was monday. i think that people forget how committed he is to certain principles and certain achievements. at the same time i think -- i and others would say we're not going to push him off the stage or call for him to be removed. we'll say to him, we need to make a sober analysis of whether or not we can continue that work and how best we do that. that choice i'm willing to live

with whichever way he decides to go. i think it's very, to me, disturbing that you have so many democrats getting in the way of talking about how horrific last night was for the republicans by using today to tell their president to step off the stage. i mean, all the democrats ought to be on the message of what donald trump did last night rather than trying to, for whatever reasons -- some of them are playing politics in their own states and districts -- to get in the way of the message of today. people -- i mean, the most anti-immigration, anti-rights convention i've seen. hulk hogan is your new symbol of the republican party and you're trying to deal with a president who, at his worst day, delivered on many of the things that we definitely needed.

i was very disappointed in some of them. i see the congressional black caucus and hispanic caucus, a lot of them who were the ones that gained the most movement have not come out against this president. maybe it's because we feel we have the most to lose. we're not drinking kool-aid, but we're certainly not going to take shots at people who never backed away from us. >> aaron, the biden campaign put out a statement saying the american people saw the same donald trump they rejected four years ago. he focussed on his own grievances with no plan to unite us. americans know where he wants to take this country. donald trump's dark vision for the future is not who we are as americans. that does not sound like someone who is getting out of the race. what's your reporting telling you about the biden campaign? >> i mean, i would say that it's important to note that nobody ever entertains the idea that they're going to drop out of a

race or says they might not run until the moment comes. there's some signals from at least close to the trump team, if not at the highest levels, these are things being considered in a way they weren't before. the convention last night and trump's speech in particular, it's kind of two takeaways for democrats. one is if you're looking at the speech and saying, that was a mess, he rambled, he ad libbed. 75% of the speech was ad libbed. he didn't drive a coherent message. it was dark. it was not uniting. you look at that and say that's a guy we can beat. he's more popular he was than when he was president, but we can bring that down. democrats are saying, yes, that's the opportunity here if we have somebody who can drive that message. right now as president biden is dealing with covid, it's a difficult situation for him.

even since the debate, we haven't seen him out there on a consistent basis driving the message, even in the interview he's done, driving a consistent and coherent message against former president trump. that's what a lot of democrats are hoping for right now. that's why they're willing to entertain alternatives. >> charlie, there's an argument that some voters are suffering from trump amnesia. we may have not been paying attention to him over the last four years because we wanted to ignore him and forget everything about him. they forgot how truly traumatic and deeply weird trump's presidency was. then you had last night's speech reminding us again of that. take a listen. >> they look like yaks. we have to take it and make it a little nicer and pointed at the top instead of a flat nose. the people at the shipyard said,

this guy knows what he's doing. i could stop this with just a telephone call. we'll have our next republican convention in venezuela because it will be safe. kim jong-un, i got along very well with him. i think he misses me. >> if there's anyone that has lost mental acuity, it's that guy. we haven't been paying attention to him for the last four years because we wanted to forget him. could refreshing memories of voters snap them out of trump amnesia or are we numb to it? >> this is an excellent question. we've fallen into a vast memory hole over the last few months. do we remember who this man was, what he has done? you certainly felt as if the

republicans got complete amnesia. the fact that you've nominated a convicted felon, all the things we know about him, i think that's true. as david mentioned, the vast majority of americans didn't see that. this is the task between now and november to make it very clear who donald trump is, what he has done and remind people about that. now, that i think is a key issue that democrats need to think about. if it is two elderly men duelling accusations of they're losing cognition or they're too old, it's going to be fuzzed up somewhat. if the democrats change their course, then the focus can really shift to what you just mentioned. we have been embroiled in this big discussion, has joe biden

lost his fastball, is he too old? we've not focussed that spotlight on what's going on with donald trump? this is not the same guy as in 2016 and 2020. he's losing something. there's something going on. there's this narcissism and lack of impulse control that we have known about, but it seems to be getting worse. this is one of the questions, is the focus of this campaign going to be on the question of joe biden and his fitness or is it going to be a referendum on do we want to go down the donald trump pathogen? >> of course because of the maga-fication of the gop, you cannot expect them to have the reasonable debate about their cult leader. no one is going anywhere. we have a lot to talk about and the return of vintage trump. plus, the turmoil inside the democratic party.

more house democrats calling for president biden to step aside as new reporting suggests that the biden family is discussing a possible exit. we're going to talk with a former democratic congressman. later on, we'll come back to our top story and what donald trump didn't mention last night, including his fondness for the violent extremists who stormed the capitol on january 6th. those stories and much more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. don't go anywhere. this don't go anywhere. i don't see you. -oh, come on. this one's perfect for you. but you. love it. i told you we should have done a piñata. i explained it so many times. um-hum. they're not sitting. -and it rocks... you need to sit down. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪

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enemy of democracy. especially since that is not true. in fact, i'm the one saving democracy for the people of our country. >> if you believe donald trump is the one saving democracy, i have a bridge that i want to sell you. we're back with aaron, david, charlie and rev. david, it's classic trump gaslighting, suggesting it's the democrats weaponizing the justice department when he has called himself the retribution candidate, the man who's going to go out there and prosecute and investigate. this is a guy who chanting in 2016 lock her up and threatened to go after his political enemies all throughout that campaign. >> yes, well, this is the case that needs to be made. sadly 40% of the country believe donald trump, but there's a majority of americans who

understand someone who refused to engage in the peaceful transfer of power, who refuses to say he'll abide by these election results, who doesn't think the person who gets the most votes wins, who fomented an insurrection and he's going to turn the federal government into his playpen to settle scores. that's not going to help anybody living paycheck to paycheck. he's not going to bring down prices and grow jobs. the picture has to be painted of the four years of trump's presidency and if joe biden is the nominee, the hardest thing for an incumbent to do is understand elections are about the future. you can be proud of your record, but you have to paint the picture about the next four years. i think this finish the job

message to me, while i believe it and while i think joe biden has been a great president, a political contest is not a job performance review about your last four years. you have to make that case. i think part of the case here is this is a guy who -- when you say anti-democracy, that doesn't work with voters. >> they don't understand what that necessarily means, right? >> yes. you have to explain what it means. should the person who gets the most votes win? should we have peaceful transfer of power? should the department of justice prosecute political opponents? people don't want that. then you have to connect the dots. you have to say that's not going to help you or your family. that's the case that has to be prosecuted. assuming there is a debate on september 10th, that has to be front and center in terms of the execution of our candidate. >> let's not forget the republicans wanting to give

power to state legislators to overthrow the results of an election and let state legislators cast votes. conventions have their quirkiness to them. you see people in costumes and different outfits and stuff. talk to me about the images we saw folks walking around with bandages on their ear, this blatant sycophant si, it's a new trumpification of the gop. this is not normal. >> oh, no, nothing about what's happening now is normal. yes, you know, this has been a cult for sometime. you can see that it was ramped up. the shooting on saturday, i think, stunned people at first. by the time they gathered in milwaukee it was clearly what galvanized them.

it gave a lot of anti-trump folks, trump skeptics the permission they have been looking for to embrace them. going around with the bandages is one more symbol of the way the republican party is in such complete and total fall to this one man. in a trump 2.0 presidency anyone who thinks the republican party will be a restraining force or a guardrail is -- have not been paying attention. this convention marked the complete maga-fication of the republican party.

it was the selection of j.d. vance and the symbolism. >> even when he's tying to be unifying, and i don't think he was, he couldn't help himself but insult people of color. listen to this. >> today our cities are flooded with illegal aliens. americans are being squeezed out of the labor force and their jobs are taken. by the way, you know who's taking the jobs, 107% of those jobs are taken by illegal aliens. you know who's being hurt the most by millions of people pouring into our country, the black population and the hispanic population because they're taking the jobs from our black population, our hispanic population. >> your thoughts on that, that messaging of turning minority communities against one another by making them believe that undocumented workers in this country are hurting black

americans and hispanic americans. >> well, if one were to have an intelligent conversation with him, which would end up with word salad, where's the documentation of that? this is the man that said they're taking the black jobs. i think president biden skillfully said in his speech the black job is the vice president of united states. he went on to list other things. he has been always one that was considered by many of us in his home city biased. he was a man who the justice department found discriminatory, he and his father, in their housing developments in terms of renting to people of color. they wouldn't rent. they would write "c" for colored on the applications. this was found by the justice department. his advocating the death penalty for the central park five who

ended up being innocent. he has this real feeling about people of color. who else in his right mind would say a race of people would identify with him because of a mugshot? it's really saying they're all criminals so they relate to me being a criminal because they're criminals. that's what he's saying. to think this man thinks this is the way to get black voters shows you how out of touch and insensitive he is. i agree with david. you've got to talk about what you're going to do in the next four years, not the last four. part of what i think president biden can be saying is, because this supreme court that donald trump has seated has taken away women's rights to choose, has taken away affirmative action, has made serious damage of voting rights, the next four

years i'm going to fight and i might get two selections on the supreme court to restore the rights we have to move forward to have more kamala harrises and others. we need to talk about that and what we lost during donald trump -- basic rights for women, gays, blacks and latinos. every time he opens his both, that's what donald trump says he's going to do. >> the convention was a reminder to the never trumpers that you'll come and kiss the ring and bend the knee as we saw with the appointment of j.d. vance who called trump america's hitler, but you saw ron desantis and nikki haley at two low points in their careers to come back to that crowd and pledge their fealty to donald trump

after rejecting him during the primaries. what does that say about those on the outside of the maga wing or the maga gop if you will and whether or not is there anyone out there that's willing to speak up? >> i mean, this is the story of the republican party over the last eight years. if you want to be a trump critic, you lose your job. if you want to criticize trump and get back on board, you can be his vice presidential selection and get back in the good graces of the base. a really telling moment was j.d. vance's acceptance speech of the vice presidential nomination. it was similar to trump's speech. it started out with at least an appeal to unity and moved into something entirely different. j.d. vance started out by talking about the idea that republicans could have healthy disagreements about things, but they need to come together. as the speech went on, he gave a

pretty direct challenge to the more interventionists, the hawkish foreign policy types, the corporate aligned portions of his party, basically telling them they need to get on board. get with the program because this is what the party is defined by. i thought it was an interesting decision that the trump campaign made. it was almost -- to your point, it was getting people in line and basically kind of wearing down the critics in this party who weren't at this convention. you know, the mike pences and those categories of people who weren't at the convention. we had a show devoted to this maga world view and j.d. vance goes out there and says, look, this is the way it is now. i think the message sent to the rest of the republican party, you need to get on board. this is the party now. take it or leave it. >> you can see the trump family relishing that from their box. it had the feel of a third world

dict dictatorship, him watching everyone parade on the stage and pledge their loyal to them. >> aaron, david, charlie, thank you. rev, stick around. a conversation about who should make the case against donald trump continues in the democratic party even as the biden campaign insists the president is staying in the race.

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we know that we slipped a bit from the debate and we know that the president has to prove to the american people exactly what he believes, that he's in this to win this. he can do this. he's our nominee and will be our president for a second term. >> that was the chair of the biden campaign, jen o'malley, acknowledging there has been a slip in support, but president biden will remain in the race. nbc news reports today that the president's family has started discussing his exit plan from the 2024 race. the calls from democrats on capitol hill for president biden to step aside continue to mount. as we mentioned, nancy pelosi, congresswoman zoe lofgren called for president biden to exit. here she is laying out her case. >> it's telling that members of the january 6th committee, myself, adam schiff, jamie

raskin suggested he step aside and we get another candidate who can beat donald trump. donald trump is a threat to america and the world. he cannot be elected. he must not be elected. so we've asked the president to look at that. obviously this is his decision. it's not about him and it's not about me. it's about america. >> joining our conversation former ohio congress tim ryan. the rev is back with us. congressman, let's talk about the messaging and the number of people and whether or not it is -- it matters who calls for the president to step aside. is it at this point a matter of numbers? >> well, i think it's a little bit of both. these allies of nancy pelosi, i think the story from nancy pelosi's talk with the president, those are indicative

of how the pressure that's working its way up through the house leadership, the pressure that worked its way up through the senate leadership, you saw tester, people in cycle running races, those are signals. i think what we'll see, i'm thinking, if something doesn't happen in the next couple days, you're going to see a lot of members of the house, you'll see more members of the senate come out. i think it's strategic, but also the volume that i think will be increasing in the coming days. >> what do you personally think is the best path forward? do you believe the vice president should become the nominee for the democratic ticket? if so, why are you not hearing more of these politicians who are calling on the president to step aside, to also release his delegates immediately to kamala harris, to the vice president, to become the presidential nominee? >> i don't know. i mean, i watched her through

her three and a half years. i campaigned with her in 2020. she's a compelling figure. we've seen in the last two or three weeks her really get her voice, hit her stride. she understands the international end and domestic issues inside and out. i just see her as someone who could absolutely both prosecute the case against trump in the campaign sense, not let him get away with what he got away with in the debate, not let him get away with what he got away with last night. 22 lies last night. 30 from the debate. she wouldn't let him get away with it. look at the things we need to run on, the choice issues, the industrial issues, she's been part of the most pro union administration in the country since roosevelt. she'll energize the base and pull in young people.

most importantly this country is dying for an aspirational message about how we can lift america out of what we've been in. we have this toxic politics. people are ready for aspiration. artificial intelligence, how do we dominate it. how do we use that to improve health care and education? the block chain, how do we reinvent government? how do we heal veterans with healing trauma? how do we build chips, all the stuff we want to do in the industrial midwest? she can elevate this conversation. i want everybody to know, do you realize how small donald trump will look to a kamala harris and to an elevated message like that? he'll shrink. during the debate she'll destroy him. america can come together around healing. i think a generational change puts us at a significant campaign advantage and messaging

advantage and i think we blow trump out and win the house and hold on to the senate. >> rev, obviously when he campaigned, president biden campaigned as a generational, transitional president to the next generation of democratic leaders. kamala harris was that choice as vice president. obviously now she -- by anyone's estimate she would be the frontrunner. you're not seeing more democratic politicians calling on president biden to step aside to also choose for her to be the nominee and endorse her. >> one of the things i think is very concerning to a lot of us is, one, not to appreciate what joe biden has done and given this whole thing of trying to push him off the stage in this way. as we talked about, i talked to him last monday. weekend before last i spent time with vice president harris in new orleans at the essence music festival. no one is more loyal standing by

the president than vice president kamala harris. i mean, in private one-on-one. we've known each other 25 years. she said, al, we have to stand by the president. what we've done, we've done together. having said that, who would be better to defend his legacy, as he defends it, than the one who did it with him? that was his co-pilot. what qualifies kamala harris is everything that was just said. what qualifies her is she chose her to be the person in case of anything to step in that seat and he reiterated it this week. i think it's extremely important. for me, if it falls -- i'm not calling for this. if it happens and kamala harris is there as the presidential candidate because i can't see joe biden for any reason stepping aside, it would have to

go to her. >> there's also the democratic argument that out of the primaries held, both her and the president received the 14 million votes from the democratic voters. >> when we voted for joe biden, we voted for her saying this is who could take the rein. that would be unacceptable. if it would happen, it would be the battle of all times to have the prosecutor against the felon. i would love to see the prosecutor versus the felon. that would be a debate to have. one would have to check on their schedule, the other would have to check with their parole officer could they come to the debate. >> rev and congressman, stick around to discuss. we're going to squeeze in a quick debate. we're going to squ quick debate

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trying to portray themselves as the party of unity. but here's the thing -- here's the thing, if you claim to stand for unity, you need to do more than just use the word. you cannot claim to be for unity if you try to overturn a free and fair election -- [ cheers and applause ] do we believe in the promise of america? and are we ready to fight for

it? when we fight, we win. >> that was vice president kamala harris lighting up the campaign trail yesterday in fayetteville, north carolina. we're back with tim ryan and reverend al sharpton. that's the energy you need. that's the energy you need with the messages that resonate and you hear it in the crowd. you hear it in the crowd and see the reaction. she came to the essence music festival, 60,000 people cheering. she has the way to energize base voters, not only women and not only blacks, but base voters. speaking for me here, i don't understand these people that are trying to say the president ought not run. they're not saying, but i would go with the vice president. they're not saying anything, which makes us wonder what are the real motives you have? are you trying to play at the expense of the president to save

your little congressional seat or whatever you think you need to do? it does not seem to me that you could have one without the other. it was the biden/harris ticket. i wanted to see him have a black woman run for vice president. he committed to a black woman in the supreme court. he did both. he did both. now we're acting like, oh, well, that's not a natural succession if he were to decide to do something different. she doesn't want him to do it from what she said to me, and i don't want him to do. if he did, what's the debate about? >> congress ryan, let me go back to a point the vice president made in the speech talking about the republicans left off in their convention. they didn't talk about women's the crowd riled up. she is someone who can blunt their message and go on the offense with what's at stake here. >> 100%. i think what you just saw there

and what reverend al saw last week as well, happy warrior. i mean you think about, you know, all of our great presidents, whether, you know, roosevelt, kennedy, reagan as a republican, bill clinton, barack obama, they were happy warriors, but they helped us really understand -- you think back to the clinton campaign. the world was changing. the wall fell. globalization. automation. clinton was trying to help us understand through that campaign what we needed to do as a party to help average people deal with the changes. i think what i've watched over the last three-and-a-half years is the vice president really command the knowledge needed to help the american people understand that, look, it is not the doom and gloom that trump was talking about. we have a lot of challenges. we have structural problems. we need a whole campaign of reform of government and the institutions, but you need

someone to say, "we can only do this if we do it together." let's take some joy in the process, in the aspiration, and what i have just been so impressed with over the last few months is watching her do that. to me, and i know maybe, rev, the rev and i may have a little bit of a disagreement here. i think that that would be such a jujitsu move on the part, and i have a tremendous respect for president biden, love him. was the first presidential candidate in 2020 to endorse him as he pledged to be the bridge. i think now with so much at stake, as zoe loftman said, my god, kamala is so ready for this moment, i think she will meet it and exceed everybody's expectations. lastly real quick, i campaigned with her in 2020. i would love her to be in ohio, in western pa, in wisconsin and michigan and these states, she

would thrive. the working class people here would love her. we just have to give her a chance to make that reindustrialization message here and we'll have a significant win, i really believe that. >> yeah, it is exactly what you need right now, someone who can energize the party and get people excited. former congressman tim ryan, thank you for joining us. rev, you are sticking around. we have a little more to talk to you about. a quick break from us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. missing out on the things you love because of asthma? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. step back out there with fasenra.

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"deadline: white house," trump's speech had almost all of the hits, rants about hannibal lek ter. what was missing? his dark authoritarian vision for the country should he get elected. we will talk about it after the quick break. ected. we will talk about it after the quick break. [window slamming] woman: [gasps] [dog barking] ♪ woman: [screams] ♪ [explosion] [explosion] ♪ [lock clicks shut] ♪♪ when you're a small business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪ [ cellphone whooshes ] [ sighs ] that's why progressive makes it easy to save with a commercial auto quote online

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♪ ♪ he's talking about removing more than 10 million people from this country who have been here, many of them since they were little children, contribute to this society, contribute to this economy, live in all of our neighborhoods and communities, and now we're throwing balloons around as if this is a party. he talked about the democrats again cheating. cheat was the word he used, in the last election. after saying he was here to unify the nation. it is a bizarre feeling and i'm not sure i'm able to fully articulate it fully right now. they're painting it as a party, but it is a deeply divisive message anyway you want to look

at it. >> hi, again, everybody. it is 5:00 now in new york. i'm amon mohyeldin in today for nicolle wallace. unity be damned. apparently if you thought what donald trump said last night was enlightening enough, wait until you hear what he had the presence of mind not to say with the victory watching. he took no victory on the topic of reproductive rights, for instance, even after conservatives spent decades trying to overturn roe v. wade. that particular issue was conspicuously, january 6th defendants or as trump calls them hostages. trump has praised the people he sent to attack the capital in that rally after his speech, but, again, in speaking to a broader audience last night that topic was somehow left out of it. absent. no mention of it. but perhaps no subject was more noticeably absent that project 2025, the heritage foundation manifesto, the roadmap, the

wholesale plan of destruction of the u.s.'s federal government. of course, while many of that plan's dystopian themes were inherent in trump's comments, as we heard there, mass deportations as jacob soboroff mentioned, the disgraced ex-president has recently sought to separate himself from project 2025. that's despite the fact that the plan cooked up with the help of former aides was from the rnc this year. all of this is evidently a sore subject to the trump campaign. listen to what a senior adviser told "politico's" jonathan martin. >> the president has made it clear, these people do not speak for him. they do not speak for the campaign. i love the fact that -- >> he called them grifters. he called them grifters. >> oh. the campaign -- >> what? they're grifters? >> yeah, the campaign is 100% focused on -- we're the ones putting out the positive --

>> they're hurting your campaign. >> i think in the perfect world from their perspective they would love to drive the issue set, but they don't get to do that. now, you guys sure as hell give them a lot of leeway because you are always riding the trump campaign is going to start with the next -- >> they're hurting their campaign. they're jamming you. >> no, they're a pain in the ass. >> yeah. . all right. so the trump campaign can try to distance itself from project 2025 all at once, but to borrow some advice from our colleague rachel maddow, watch what they do, not what they say because the truth is abundantly clear. that's where we start this hour with republican strategist and msnbc political analyst mike murphy, plus writer and editor for "protect democracy" amanda carpenter joins us as well. the rev is still with us. amanda, talk to us about what project 2025 is and what the heritage foundation's role is and the overlap between the former trump officials and advisers who served him, who know him, and their role in

drafting this manifesto that is believed to overturn our democracy as we know it. >> yeah, sure. here is the thing that i think a lot of people get confused about project 2025. project 2025 isn't designed to run trump, right. what project 2025 is the product of is the product of a lot of conservatives hearing the, you know, sort of -- i don't know how else to say it, but insane rhetoric that came out of the first trump administration and after that and finding a way to make it a reality. so, like, when donald trump says "i want to use the department of justice to target my political enemies," project 2025 lays out the intellectual policy work to make that come true. that is done through things like gutting the independence of federal agencies. in other words making it so that a president can exercise his leverage on the attorney general and reducing those guardrails

that exist. the thing that melds donald trump and project 2025 together is this agreement that should the next republican take power, they have a mandate for leadership. that is the title of the project 2025 document, "republican mandate for leadership," to take full control of the federal government and use every tool at the executive's disposal to advance their agenda, right. it is a systematic policy way to gut the checks and balances that stop trump from exercising his most unlawful powers that he wanted to in his first term. you look at something like the way he held up funding for ukraine, that led to his first impeachment, right? so there's like this weird law at gao that's called entitlements. they say there's a thing called entitlements. you are not supposed to do that. we are just going to get rid of that. we are going to make it so what

was not allowed in the first trump administration, we're going to find a way to grease the skids to do that in his second term. so there's nothing to stop him from holding up funding to exercise as leverage to advance his agenda. that is what it does. instead of having any brakes in the system, this greases the skids so that trump can essentially make good on his idea when he goes forth and tells reporters at "the washington post" and everyone else, "i have article 2 power to do whatever i want," project 2025 is a plan to make that come true. >> mike, you know, i'm pretty confident, i'm willing to bet a lot on the fact that donald trump has not read project 2025. he could not possibly read a document that is that long, about 600-plus pages. but he did say earlier this month online that he knew nothing about project 2025 and that he had no idea who was behind it. first of all, do you buy that or is this response more in line

with "i hardly knew this guy" strategy that he has employed before when in reality he knows exactly what it is all about? mike? >> oh, yes. sorry. >> no worries. >> a hiccup with technology here. no, i don't think he reads anything. i think he's vaguely aware of the thrust of it and i think he's like, well, the people who wrote it are my people, they'll come up with something good. but, no, do i think it is the absolute blueprint? no, i don't really. campaigns are full of these kind of things, but it does show a troubling outlook. it is kind of the dream journal of a bunch of his people who he empowered to be his people. so do i actually think it will come true if he's president? no, but i think the bad intent behind it is troubling and parts of it could come true. but do i think he has a strong grip on the details? no, i do not. >> yeah, i mean -- >> i just want to lay a point there. >> go ahead. >> what is most interesting is

that i've read the whole project 2025. i have also read in detail agenda 47, which is trump's very campaign plaited form. it is laid out in great detail on his website. what was really interesting is that around the fall of 2022, right after he announced that he was going to run but before he announced his campaign to run in 2023, trump was trying really hard to convince the conservatives at places like heritage and otherwise to stick with him, right. there was a chance that they were going to get behind desantis, but there was a jockeying. there was competition going on behind the scenes about who was going to be the guy next, and what was happening is during that time trump was coordinating with people that were writing project 2025. if you look at agenda 47, the things that trump has said in his own speeches -- and i take it pretty seriously when he is actually scripted and saying these things because those have a pretty darn clear chance of coming true, talking about specific things about how he will leverage the power of the

federal government to attack his enemies and also make people loyal to him. he is talking about withholding federal funding for schools that exercise vaccine mandates or investigating teachers in universities because they teach dei, whatever they deem that to mean. >> yes. >> he said those things. this idea that it just won't happen in a second term because they don't know how, that is why project 2025 is there, because the conservative movement did recognize that they didn't get all that they wanted. he was stymied in his first administration, and so they have spent their time in the wilderness examining exactly how they will not be stopped again. >> yeah, i was going to say i'm old enough to remember when trump in 2016 promised to ban muslims or to build the wall or overturn roe v. wade or move the embassy to jerusalem, and he followed through on all of those things because he said he was going to do those things. so we should definitely take him at his word when he says he wants to do the things that amanda there was talking about in agenda 47. mike, trump might not have

mentioned project 2025. president biden to his credit in his response to the speech wrote about it today, saying trump avoided mentioning his project 2025 agenda, but still proudly flaunted the worse of maga extremism. americans know exactly where he wants to take this country. i look forward to getting back on the campaign trail next week to continue exposing the threat of donald trump's project 2025 agenda while making the case for my own record and the vision that i have for america, one where we save our democracy, protect our rights and freedoms, and create opportunity for everyone. mike, trump may not want to be associated with project 2025. it is obvious that the democrats seem eager to prevent him from making that distinction and making sure he wears it wherever he goes. >> yeah, no, it is a tactic for the democrats. look, we found the evil plan, and there are plenty of evil plan-capable people around trump. the question is how long of a leash will he give them because i don't think trump ever reads, you know, any policy plan. we know trump is a populist and

we know he's transactional. so he will -- if it is popular, he will stick with it. if it has a lot of opposition, he may back off. so i'm not a project 2027 originalist. that said, the very fact that he has policy people close to him who come up with stuff like this is very, very troubling. the very fact that trump isn't a detail guy means god knows what they will be able to get away with in a trump administration if they're not watched. so i think it is a fairly smart move by the biden people to make it famous. it has become a rallying cry in the partisan democrat world, but i wouldn't be surprised if this thing starts to catch traction, the democratic attacks, and trump says, no, no, i'm not doing that and he will just back right off of it. that also doesn't mean trump will have the same people who came up with it in positions of power in the government. >> right. >> so i think the realistic take on it is that it is a warning

sign of bad intent, which should be taken quite seriously. >> rev, this is the challenging part right now because this is, you know, as far as dc goes, it is a policy document. it is 900 pages. to be able to prosecute, as you said earlier, to be able to prosecute the case against something so dense for voters, you got to have really good communication skills. you got to have someone who is out there who can simplify this, who can message this. you need somebody who is a master orator and can relate it to campaign voters. you know this better than anyone. can president biden effectively do that? >> i think the answer to that is he did it in 2020. i mean we're acting like joe biden didn't beat a sitting president. >> right. >> which is not often happening -- happened in history, and he had the skills to do it then. joe biden got more votes than any president in the history of this country. now, second thing was donald

trump. he was able to undo that or to overcome the massive vote that trump had as president. even now with all of the fall-out, with some of the democrats saying "don't run," we are looking at the poll numbers where trump is a little ahead, but there's no way of seeing this huge deficit that could not be picked up by president biden once he's back out there or by the -- and the democratic convention. so, again, whatever he decides, that's what many of us will support. but let's not forget the history here. can joe biden do donald trump? he's the only one that ever did, and trump was president when he beat him then. >> let me play for you something that kevin roberts of the heritage foundation told our colleagues when he was on this network on the weekend just last month. watch. >> i suspect a lot of those people you are talking about have been in the federal service for a long time and have served

not just republican administrations but also democratic administrations, et cetera. >> they have. and 95% of them who give political contributions give them to the democratic party. >> but that's -- >> i reject that out of hand, michael, that somehow -- >> you are going to fire someone because they wrote a check to a democratic candidate? >> no, we're going to fire someone and the number needs to be more than 50,000 considering there are more than 2 million federal employees because over the last century the radical left has seen the administrative state as the fourth branch of government. >> you know, your thoughts on that? i mean what that would mean for the way the federal government functions. first of all, the idea we do not have professional civil servants is insulting. i mean our government functions like that from the dmv all the way up to every level. you have people who do their jobs professionally, and he wants to fire them for their political beliefs. >> he wants to fire them for their political beliefs. it is going to now be a

political litmus test to even work for the federal government. i mean this is unthinkable in a democratic country, in a country that is professing to be a democracy that now you have to be a member of the ruling party. that's basically -- >> right, right. >> -- what he's saying. >> exactly, yeah. >> -- in order to work for government. i think these are the kind of things we ought to be talking about rather than how old somebody is. can you imagine that? in this country, we will be to where show your republican party card or don't apply for a job in government. that is frightening. >> a scary day. mike, you know, project 2025 wasn't the only thing that was absent from trump's comments. in fact, really quite absent from all of the discussions at the convention, gun rights. near nonexistent, "the washington post" noted, through three nights at the gop convention. the word "abortion" didn't appear to have been uttered once

on stage, and when you compare that to 2020, one night of the convention it was mentioned 18 times. it is not because the republicans stopped caring about abortion. it is because they know that it is now a losing issue for them that is going to mobilize the democratic party. >> oh, yeah. look, conventions are tv shows. they're scripted. you know, the only reality in a convention really might break out with the democrats if joe biden steps to the side, which i think sad as i am to say it because, you know, i feel for president biden, but he ought to because he is a losing candidate even to this guy. but the republican convention was scripted. the problem they had with the script was they had on monday night and to some extent on tuesday night, they have to let the kooks have some microphone time to hold the mechanics together, so they had some

entertainment then. and president trump, he is unscriptable. they had an opportunity last night in the moment of good will people in the country have toward president trump over the horrible assassination attempt. instead of widening his appeal he broke out of the teleprompter and we had the angry orange orangutan speech, forever. even castro was offend it it went on for so long. that's the nightmare of a good convention manager because that's not what you want to happen. you want to script it all. as we found out 100 times, now with the kinder, gentler side of donald trump, which doesn't exist, there's no scripting him. so the biggest opportunity at the convention which was last night was totally blown. that said, the republicans were not mentioning things like abortion because they're trying to run a ming vase campaign. you know, make no news, stay in front, let the election continue to be about joe biden's age and

win. unless the democrats change up their candidate in my view, and i wrote an op-ed about this in "the new york times" a day or two ago, it will work, even with trump occasionally breaking out of the scripted cage and being donald trump, which doesn't help the cause of the trump campaign. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. we have a lot more to discuss with our panel on the other side of things. we will talk about what else we didn't hear from donald trump last night. january 6th, it is a sharp contrast to what he says in his -- virtually every other campaign setting. also ahead, new details into the investigation into the deadly shooting at last week's trump rally. the firefighter killed in the attack laid to rest today as the head of the secret service faces big questions about what went wrong. in reaction to the news out of moscow, "wall street journal" recorder evan gershkovich sentenced to 16 years in prison

based on evidence that the "wall street journal" and gershkovich rejects. journal" and gershkovi rejects. ♪liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty.♪

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we're going to do a lot of things. we're going to look very strongly at j6. those people, there's never been people treated more horrifically than j6 hostages. >> ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the horribly an unfairly treated january 6th hostages. ♪ o, say can you see ♪ >> as everyone knows, it will be my great honor to pardon the peaceful january 6th protesters,

or as i often call them the hostages. they're hostages. there has never been a group of people treated so harshly or unfairly in our country's history. this abuse will be rectified and it will be rectified very quickly. >> all right. he has made it a theme of his campaign, the grave injustice done to violent january 6th rioters forced to serve prison time because they committed crimes. yet last night we heard none of that in front of the national audience, the words january 6th were never mentioned. we are back with mike, amanda and rev. rev, your thoughts on him? it is part of the campaign speech. we have heard it as we played there, he refers to them as hostages. the evolution of january 6th for maga trump world has been extraordinary to watch, from a january 6th coup and insurrection to now hostages. >> hostages at a time that we have real hostages in different places in the world.

it ought to offend a lot of people because these people are not being held for some ransom or because of their race or something like that, that we are seeing in the middle east. these people are being held because they tried to overturn an election. they committed violent acts. they threatened people's lives. to call them hostages and you are going to make this man again the head of government is atrocious. it was interesting because -- and i think someone said it on the show tonight, how transactional he is, he knew not to go there in his acceptance speech primetime last night because he's trying to follow some kind of new donald trump scenario, which there is no new donald trump. he is the same donald trump that plays different audiences different ways, and he knows a lot of that audience would not go for the hostage things because these are republican

leaders, office holders and others who make up the convention. but don't worry, he will be back to hostages in the next day or two because that's who he is. he plays to the crowd. >> yeah, exactly. to that point, amanda, i mean do you get the sense that the trump campaign sees january 6th and the people who committed these crimes that day as a topic to avoid right now? certainly when you are speaking to a national audience as you were at the rnc and then resort back to talking about it when you start speaking to your local shall more extremist base in different rallies around the country? >> listen, when you put out a convention, it is like putting out the most air brush, filtered, instagram photo of yourself you possibly can, but the most handlers putting into the process. what they presented was the highest gloss version of themselves that they could come up with, and still even in the crowd you saw a lot of inflammatory rhetoric like biden's blood bath at the border. but on the january 6th question, the reason why that convention

had the appearance of having so much unity is because the party has systematically intimidated, purged, pushed out anyone who raises any kind of meaningful objection to his position on january 6th, to the idea that he would issue pardons to these law breakers and people who assaulted police officers. i mean you tell me, liz cheney wanted to go in there as a rally goer, what kind of reception do you think she would get? what is the reason that it is now a trump/vance ticket and not a trump/pence ticket? why is mitt romney not there? we can talk about why it was such a fun convention for all of the republicans there, it is because the ones of conscience are no longer welcome. >> mike, do you think voters still care about january 6th in your estimation? i mean should democrats also make that a central part of the messaging around 2024? >> yeah, i think they do care and they care a lot, and this is one of those issues where donald

trump shows his true colors and the rage he has, breaking out of his handlers', you know, box that how dare people who tried to storm the capitol to force him, regardless of the election as president, be punished. i mean i think donald trump ought to get in his plane and go find the graves of the red coats who burned the white house to the ground in 1812 and apologize to them, too. it is insane and the extent anything that makes this an election a focus on donald trump is good for the democrats. but as i indicated before, joe biden's age is making that hard right now. but this is a mistake by trump. all of the talk about on the trump campaign is trump breaks out of that campaign because he's ultimately in charge and he shows the donald trump and that's not an attractive candidate. that's why his unfavorable is so high. trump does not test well. he is just surfing right now on the fact that the country wants

to fire joe biden. if that changes, and we're going to maybe have news in the next ten days, we'll see what happens, trump will find himself in another race and then i think we will have more of this angry trump talking about the vanity issues driven by his ego that he cares about the most like those poor patriots who, you know, tried to hurt policemen and take down the congress. >> rev, there was some new reporting today about one of the january 6th defendants sentenced to a four-year prison sentence. he was also an individual that participated in the infamous unite the right rally in charlottesville, but i want to read to you what one of the officers who attended that sentencing said afterwards from our colleague, ryan reilly. lieutenant r.r. who told nbc news after the hearing that he only wished to be identified by the initials he used in court, said that he was initially part of the response to the pipe bombs left at the rnc and the dnc buildings which are located near the capitol complex, but he felt a duty to respond to the capitol itself after hearing the commotion and chaos unfolding over the radio.

quote, i couldn't turn my back on the capitol, he said. it was a matter of life and death. rioters grabbed him, he said. they punched him. he was hit with pipes, flag poles, pepper spray so often he lost vision. in training he said officers had all of the water they needed to de contaminate from the chemical spray. on january 6th they had to use mere ounces, often splitting water bolts between two officers who had been hit with that spray. it has been three-and-a-half years, rev. how do you remind americans of the horrors that day, of how close we got to losing the american democratic experience that donald trump in the span of three years has recast for his followers as hostages? >> i think that we have got to keep putting those videos out there that shows it in real-time. we have to remind the american public that the reason that you have j.d. vance as the vice presidential candidate, not mike pence running for reelection as

vice president, is because they threatened to kill mike pence and mike pence refused to certify the election of the people of the united states had decided. they were not there just having a rally. they were there to stop the certification of an election, which is tantamount to overthrowing the government because they were overthrowing the will of the people. you got to bring that home. joe biden is running with his vice presidential candidate. mike pence had to run from his president and to save his life, and we need to keep raising that to the public so they understand the kind of person that donald trump is and the kind of president he was. >> and, of course, a reminder that vance would not have done what mike pence did. he is a guy that said he would not certify that election, and that's why he should not be allowed this that position at all. thank you all for spending time with us. greatly appreciate it.

when we return as the firefighter killed in the assassination attempt against former-president trump is laid to rest, the secret service is facing questions, serious questions about what went wrong. we are going to get into that after a short break. a subcutaneous injection that takes about 30 to 90 seconds. for one thing, could it mean more time for you? vyvgart hytrulo can improve daily abilities and reduce muscle weakness with a treatment plan that's personalized to you. do not use vyvgart hytrulo if you have a serious allergy to any of its ingredients. it can cause serious allergic reactions like trouble breathing and decrease in blood pressure leading to fainting and allergic reactions such as rashes, swelling under the skin, shortness of breath, and hives. the most common side effects are respiratory and urinary tract infections, headache, and injection site reactions. it may increase the risk of infusion-related reactions and infection. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or symptoms of an infection.

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this afternoon in pennsylvania the loved ones of corey compertore held funeral services for the father, husband and firefighter who was killed while protecting his family from the horrific assassination

attempt on former-president trump. he was honored at the rnc last night, but in the six days since the attack the secret service, an organization whose mission is zero fail, has yet provided sufficient answers to lawmakers and the american public about what led to this massive failure in protecting the ex-president and the attendees of his rally last saturday. perhaps a chance to get some answers could come as soon as monday with secret service director kimberly cheatle agreeing to testify before the house oversight committee. joining our conversation, national investigative reporter for "the washington post" and msnbc contributor, carol leonnig. carol, it is great to see you again. we learned today that director cheatle will testify before the house oversight committee. what are we hearing from the agency about what unfolded saturday and what perhaps steps are being taken in the short term to address those concerns and fears that people have? >> first -- pardon me. at first there was a lot of silence from the secret service

and that worried a lot of people. the director was not available to answer questions in the wake of the shooting. there was nobody at the press conference after the shooting, just the fbi and a pennsylvania state police officer. so there's a lot of anxiety about that. but in the wake of the shooting, the secret service sent a whole new contingent of tactical agents to support donald trump and secure him literally on saturday night as he was eventually going to make his way to milwaukee for the republican national convention. as for steps that were taken in dc, a number of security details were also beefed up for individuals here who have secret service protection. those are the instantaneous reactions after an attempted assassination, something we haven't seen since ronald reagan in 1981, and many people are really concerned about how the secret service is going to explain and how the director will explain on monday how the

agency and its team didn't address this very obvious risk, which was a clear line of sight from a roof top where a gunman was able to get a shot off at trump and his stage. >> carol, you reported in "the washington post" how local law enforcement last weekend warned they lacked the manpower to sufficiently secure the rally on saturday. quote, the warnings also underscore a tension that has emerged inesnsibility for security lapses preceding the attempted assassination. secret service cheatle, who had previously stressed that local police were responsible for the outer security perimeter, issued a statement to "the post" on wednesday stressing the importance of collaboration with local authorities. if there were legitimate concerns about being able to properly secure the venue, an open-air site with elevated buildings overlooking where the

crowd and where the president were, you know, what is the secret service's answer as to why this rally still took place despite those concerns? >> zeroed in on exactly the two most important worries and centerpieces of the quest to find out what went wrong, where is the breakdown. first is the line of sight issue and second is if the secret service didn't properly mitigate that or if local police were assigned to help reduce that risk and failed to do so, why? why did that happen? the second point you raise is about the warnings ahead of time. bystanders according to our reporting, and great work by some of my colleagues who have had some sleepless nights piecing this all together with me, local bystanders there in the outer perimeter were hollering to police more than two minutes beforehand, urging

them to look at this strange man clambering on to the roof just outside the rally just 150 yards. and our video reconstruction of that shows that it didn't take very much time before the shots began to be fired by the gunman, by thomas matthew crooks. well, what we learned exclusively at "the washington post" was that a local police officer was supposed to be stationed in a police car, a patrol car outside that building and the service was alerted by local police that that patrol car and that officers, they just didn't have the resources to provide that. so a big question arises, if you didn't mitigate this open air, huge building, expansive roof top, clear line of sight from the top, then did you address it and secure it from the outside of that building.

it is scary as i listen to agents who do this workday in and day out and have done it in the past to say that there should have been a man, a police officer on that roof or there should have been officers around that building because it was such an obvious risk, and that just countersnipers facing it from behind trump's stage was not enough to address that. these are key things that have to be answered, and not just in the fbi investigation of what is a crime scene and an attempted assassination but that i understand the secret service is trying to get to the bottom of right now with some of its top people looking at what's called a mission assurance investigation, trying to figure out where did things break down. >> talk to us a little bit, and you certainly know it better than most, talk to us about the culture of the secret service. i mean it frankly seems like the agency has been defensive in the criticism it has received of the event. is it an organization that can be self-critical and address these issues or should there be

some kind of out -- what is the culture like? should there be some kind of outside investigations to get to the questions that you are raising here or can the organization self-investigate itself and course correct? >> good question. you know, when i reported a series, a really gobsmacking series of security breaches by the secret service that made everyone sort of shake their head at how could this have happened, how could shots have been fired at the obama white house in 2011 and the secret service bungled the investigation, didn't know shots had been fired there and hit the building for four days. how could a disabled veteran somehow get past 100-plus secret service personnel and agents at the grounds of the white house and deep -- and get inside, deep inside the white house? how could that have happened? a string of others. when i reported on this, the culture of the secret service was described to me

overwhelmingly by people inside it as insular and defensive, and what i found was evidence that there was a premium by senior leadership put on covering up mistakes rather than trying to fix them, covering them up so people could get promoted and not get in trouble for things that didn't go very well on their watch or on their leadership team. now, i can't say that that is at the root of the problem that we just saw, the tragic failure that we just witnessed in butler, pennsylvania. what i can tell you is the evidence we have to date and the information i'm getting from inside the building is that the constrained, limited resources of the secret service, which was also a major contributor to events nine, ten, eleven years ago with all of these major security failures and breaches. that limited number of people, difficulty finding countersnipers, a small pool of people who can be drawn on for counterassault agents on the

scene, just a limited number of, quote, unquote, bodies to throw at all of these events during a campaign seems to be what the secret service is concluding contributed to this event, and contributed to the sort of holes in the security net around former-president trump on that day. >> all right. carol leonnig, thank you so much for your reporting and thank you for sharing your insight. it is greatly appreciated as always. when we return, why "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich sentencing today in russia could be the first steps of getting him home. that story after a very short break.

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american journalist evan gershkovich was found guilty today on espionage charges in russia after a rushed and secret trial in a case that he and his employer, the "wall street journal" and the u.s. government, have all condemned as a sham. this is gershkovich earlier today learning his sentence, 16 years in a maximum security prison after already 16 months in what the u.s. calls wrongful detainment that had been repeatedly extended and widely condemned as a symbol of russian president vladimir putin's war on freedom of speech. gershkovich was taken into custody last year while on a reporting trip in russia. he's the first american to be arrested and tried on espionage charges since the cold war and he now has 15 days to appeal his sentence. joining our conversation, staff writer for "the atlantic" anne

applebaum is here. anne, it is great to have you with us. you know, journalists and u.s. embassy officers were only allowed in the courtroom briefly, but what do we know about the trial and any evidence that may have been presented and how many details might even become public about it? >> as i understand it, there's almost no evidence and instead what -- what the spectators saw in russia was something that americans have, fortunately, never seen, which is a completely state-controlled trial. so in russia they have not rule of law but rule by law, which means that the justice is whatever the leader says it is. there was nothing fair about this. there was no evidence presented. there would have been no chance for gershkovich to make his case. it looks very much like there were two reasons for this. one was to provoke the united states to show, you know, demonstrate, for putin to

demonstrate his lack of interest in having a better relationship with america, his disdain and disregard for the rule of law again. and maybe it is also to discourage other journalists, and the point is to keep people out of russia to prevent people from doing any reporting. it is a sign to russian journalists as well. >> president biden said in a statement today, evan gershkovich committed to crime. rather, he was targeted by the russian government because he is a journalist and an american. we are pushing hard for evan's release and will continue to do so. you also had the russian foreign minister say that talks are happening on a possible swap. is that more likely now after this sham trial and conviction? there are some that believe that this process had to go forward so that the russians, as you said, can make this political statement that they wanted to make swap with the united states. >> well, they want to be able to say, we captured a criminal. we have a real spy. and therefore, they can trade him for someone they think is

significant and maybe someone we think is significant, too. so they had an interest in closing the case swiftly and as i said, without any evidence or any real arguments. there is, there have been a lot of conversations about swaps. they do go on behind the scenes. there was a conversation about swapping the late alexei navalny who died in jail a few months ago. it is hard to say whether they'll come out or not. usually the stakes are pretty uneven. again, they have somebody who is not guilty, not a criminal. we have people who were criminals and who committed crimes. we have them or our european partners have them. yeah. i think it is possible that they're discussing it and these things do sometimes work out. >> talk to us about the timing of this case, anne. we know that trump and zelenskyy is speaking today. what do you make of that?

>> i find that really quite creepy. if trump is negotiating with putin, or if he has some line to putin and they're discussing the gershkovich case, and putin intends to somehow give gershkovich to trump as a gesture of friendship or thanks, perhaps, trump is just appointed a very anti-ukrainian senator as his vice president, jd vance. it would really make me question trump's reliability as a president and as a commander in chief. if he were to go behind the president's back and behind the state department's back in order to achieve some kind of, what would be a political success for himself. so it's a strange and peculiar conversation. >> all right. thank you so much for joining us, anne. greatly appreciate your insights as always. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. for us we'll be right back. postmenopausal osteoporosis and are at high risk for fracture,

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introducing the comcast business 5-year price lock guarantee. powering 5 years of savings. powering possibilities. thank you for spending part of your friday with us. "the beat" starts right now. hey, ari! >> i hope you have a great weekend. stay near your cameras as we all are. >> i know you have your show but even beyond that. the middle of the night at all times. >> it will always be on, my friend. >> see you soon.