good morning i am charles coleman jeering filling in for my friend and colleague ali velshi. we have a lot to talk about.

which is three and half months to go until election day and after a roller coaster month that has only added to the uncertainty of the season the presidential race has entered a new phase in one corner democrats are continuing to debate whether or not joe biden should remain the presumptive nominee. meanwhile republicans are coming off a big week that has energize their base. tonight, the gop's official ticket will make its debut on the campaign trail. donald trump and his newly minted running mate j.d. vance will headline a rally later today in grand rapids. a city in the state of michigan. it will also mark the former president's first appearance sense a 20-year-old gunman attempted to assassinate him after a campaign stop in pennsylvania last saturday. that and let one rally go were dead and injured three others, including donald trump. all we gather republican national convention members of trump's team and other allies claim the assassination attempt

was a life-changing moment. many insisted that his brush with death had made him a new man and he was going to refocus his campaign on the theme of peace, unity and everyone coming together. the first half hour of his speech at the convention on thursday night he actually did just that. he attempted to take on a milder persona as he told his personal recollection of what happened last weekend. that did not last long. trump pivoted back to some of his same old grievance felt stuff speech and made many of the sweeping campaign promises without giving any specifics around policy. during the same speech in which he bowed to be a president for all of america, he reiterated his promise to, quote, launch the largest deportation operation in the history of our country. also called for the immediate of sean fang, the head of the united auto workers, a union

that endorsed biden back in january. donald trump referred to covid as the china virus and called nancy pelosi crazy. that was the speech that was going to unify the country. join me now to unpack all of this is my friend michael steele, cohost of the ms nbc show the weekend but he is also the former chairman of the republican national committee and ruth mcgee. so happy to have her. a professor at nyu and author of lucida, a newsletter following threats to democracy and the important book, strongman coleman mussolini to the president. michael, your the former rnc chair. if you are thinking about being in that seat now, looking at what you just saw this week, what is your basic reaction to what is in place as we saw it? >> where do i get my nikki

haley voters from? how do i reach to disaffected democrats who are looking at the literal role implosion of the democratic ticket? how do i appeal to them now? what is the case and narrative that i come out of this convention selling to an america that does not want either of the two candidates? as a party official, whether i am at the state level or the national level, i have to figure out where i get my vote from. this convention a, well orchestrated with beautiful graphics, you know, everybody has got the pop and sizzle of it . from that standpoint, at the end of the day i have to create a level of momentum coming out of that aspect of the campaign, the convention was something to get people to chew on that they otherwise may not be interested in. where did i draw the

nations attention to an idea of unity when you just explained and set up for us, that is not exactly what trump said after he talked about his personal reflections on the attempted assassination. it then resorted to the narratives that we are all familiar with. basically saying, the last election was stolen because of covid. they use covid to steal the election. a new way to say the same thing and then the name-calling. and the negative responses tell the economy and things like that. it is a real challenge because i do not know who his voters are outside of the core base, which tuneup everything he had to give them. >> ruth, i want to pick up where michael beautifully set us up for. you and i talk a lot about language and how important

language is and how important it has been in terms of the machine that has become donald trump and the maga movement . there was some tempering of the language temporarily. i think some of that may have had to do with the aftermath of the assassination attempt. where do you overall rank the language, then tenor, temperature that we heard coming from the convention this week? do you think it is right on par? is it a little toned down? or we just not fold and it is the same that we have become accustomed to? >> we should not be fooled because first of all someone of this temperament of donald trump is never going to tone down his message. he has no empathy. he only cares about himself. it is quite deluded, frankly, to think there could be a trump 2.0. it is like the old pivot delusion, today is a day to be president. there is this aching need to

see trump as something he is simply not. he comes out of this terrible attack with a bolstered personality and feeling much more empowered, which is why he was ranting. i also want to point out, as someone who said he he is authoritarianism, the staging of the rally had a lot of fascist elements. the lights, trump's name in lights. that is what hitler used to do, exactly the same. the people who are going to pay the price is all of us, obviously. those who are sitting in the audience with the signs that say mass deportation now and make america strong. those two things are incompatible. democrats can run on the fact that mass deportation, 15 to 20 million people they are saying will bring chaos, mass repression, violence back to the economy. these rallies give democrats a lot of ammunition for their own campaign. >> again, you are saying, you

talk about the ammunition that is giving. michael, one of the things that is interesting is the notion of extra time on the clock. what i mean is when donald trump was sitting in a courtroom in new york city democrats had some extra time to do some extra campaigning. now that there is turmoil on the democratic ticket and joe biden is sitting at home in cortina it seems like republicans have extra time and extra ammunition in terms of what they can use. are both sides are have both sides effectively use their extra time for strategy when their opponent has been sidelined? what do you think they could do better if anything? >> i think we will see starting tonight with the republicans with joe biden, as you said sidelined with covid and how they take advantage of that. how do they create additional

for the convention with the rally tonight. what other narratives do they want to lay out there? the interesting thing is that during all the turmoil with the democrats, donald trump and the republicans have largely been quiet. it is political adage. if your opponent is out there chewing himself up and stabbing each other in the back, why will i get into that fight? i have nothing to add it. they are doing fine by all themselves. and that makes sense because you do not want to interrupt that and have the attention turned on you. you can understand why the trump campaign was largely quiet during that period. the problem for the democrats is that it is still going on. now, you've got an activated republican candidate with his running mate, who will be out there sort of piling on.

they do not have to do it directly. all they have to do is say, while these guys over here have their squabbles and their fighting and trying to take out joe biden, we are showing dignity and preparation and we are ready to roll and they will not say rule the country but become the commander in chief with the vice president. it is a very different dynamic for both. the biden team has got to get out on the gate. i treated this this week. either get the biden presidency last rites and move on or get behind him and get into the battle. it is now afoot, as they like to say, starting tonight with trump and vance out there. >> i believe the term is sit or get off the pot or something like that. thank you so much for joining me this morning.

still ahead, in the last few years donald trump vp pick, j.d. vance, has gone through a transformation from being a never trumper, blue-collar conservative too hard right maga . what does the real fans believe? she cannot take off for the weekend without leaving us of special thing about the bell she banned book. we are looking at a thing about penguins but it is once described as propaganda. tango makes three has become a cultural emblem for the lgbtq+ community and for progress. we will talk about more after the break. on dealdash. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. and this smart charcoal grill sold for $16. and this nintendo switch sold for less than $20. deals like these and many more happen in the thousands of

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back in june she announced she had been diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and was undergoing treatment. jackson lee was born in new york city and serve the people of texas for more than 30 years beginning her career on houston city council and then serving in the house of representatives does 1995. throughout her tenure she served on several important committees including the judiciary, homeland security and budget. she was also an outpost in -- outspoken advocate for black americans but in a similarly's moments go president biden remember jack kenley as unrelenting in her leadership and represent her district with dignity and grace. hakeem jeffries called jackson lee a formidable force for change and a warrior for justice. the congressional black caucus called her at stalwart member of congress, who was a fierce advocate. she is survived by her husband, two children and two grandchildren. congresswoman jackson lee was 74 years old.

welcome back. i am charles coleman junior bring filling in for ali velshi. we have a lot to talk about. we learned that the man joining donald trump on the republican ticket as his vp pick is ohio center j.d. vance. unknown election denier and maga prince. he was elected to the u.s. senate just two years ago but when he entered the public spotlight around 2016, he did so dragging donald trump and his values. vance prided himself as a, quote, never a trump guy. he was that he once called him america's hitler. this seems like it is the easiest j.d. is issue or not?

let us talk about where band stands on some key issues. we will start with reproductive rights. back in 2022, vance endorsed ohio's proposed six week abortion ban which had no exceptions for cases of incest or rape. in that same year he described himself as, quote, 100% pro-life on a tap on his website which was titled the abortion printer back in 21 in interview with the catholic current vance likened abortion to slavery saying those objected to it suffering the most but that it has a, quote, morally distorting effect on entire societies. that is rich to say the least. vance is staunchly opposed to helping ukraine in its fight against russia. he was part of the initiative in the senate to block a $60 billion military aid -- and that just failed. it is important to note.

he told steve bannon in a podcast interview, quote, i have to be honest, i do not care what happens to ukraine one way or the other. if he is indifferent about ukraine, he is certainly is not on the fence when it comes to immigration and the southern border with mexico. he desperately wants to finish construction of the wall. he said he would, quote, oppose every attempt to grant amnesty to immigrants who arrived here illegally and he favors a so- called merit-based system for immigrants that are hoping to live in the united states. he is made a pitch to anyone who will listen to him on the issue recently tweeting that reporting 20 million immigrants were to bring down housing cost. it is hard to see where this guy really is. vance said in his speech in ohio university that, quote, we have a climb into problem in our country. but then asked for 220 22 and he publicly doubted that climate change was caused by human activity. vance also

slammed inflation reduction act , was dedicated $370 billion over a decade to clean energy incentives single mac it is dumb does nothing for the environment and will make us all poor. let us talk about lgbtq+ rights vance introduced a bill last year called the protect children innocent act. which would have basically banned transitional related medical care including puberty blockers, therapy and operations for minors. in 2022 bans told an ohio christian organization that he will oppose the respect for marriage act, which is a bill to injure federal marriage protection for same-sex and interracial marriages. that will -- that bill was passed before vance was sworn in. last month senator vance helped to introduce a bill to eliminate diversity, equity and inclusion programs entirely on the federal government. that bill would send bidens executives order based around

dei and dei training outlaw manager employee dei pledges the dei agenda is a destructive ideology that breeds hatred and racial division. these are his words. how is that for a defining quote? not to mention this is not at all how dei works. not even a little bit. there is more where that came from. dr. maya angelou once said when someone shows you who they are, believe them. part of the problem with j.d. vance is given the different things he has shown us, it is hard to be sure. on the other side of the break, i will tell you about where j.d. vance stands on project 2025. the over 900 page far right playbook that can overhaul the federal government if he and trump are elected and do not go anywhere. anywhere

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welcome back. on the outskirts of the republican national convention, just a few blocks away from the main event, the heritage foundation held what they called policy test. think of this like comic-con but for the most right wing of americans. the personalities from the republican party most conservative wing that attended the event and heavily promoted, you guessed it, project 2025. the conservative playbook for a

potential trump presidency. at the event kevin roberts was the president of the foundation and one of the projects' architects called the vp pick, quote, a good friend. j.d. vance seems to already have learned a thing or two from his running mate and he is pulling a trump biplane coit when it comes to project 2025. here is what he said just a few weeks ago about it. >> i think most americans could not care less about project 2025. there is some good ideas in there. it is a 900 page document i guarantee there are things that trump likes and dislikes about the 900 page document. >> vance also denied that he or the trump campaign have any connections to project 2025. what we know is that more than 140 trump officials, who can also be potentially future trump officials worked on the project.

vance denied connections to project 2025 only once. though the trial lawyer in b is declined to do drag the audience attention to the forward of kevin roberts nubuck. i'll forward written by none other than, wait for it, j.d. vance. what matters most is that many of vance's views align with project 2025. when it comes to reproductive rights, project 2025 wants to limit access to abortion. j.d. vance has expressed extreme views on abortion even indicating in the past that he does not believe in exceptions for incest. though he has tried to walk back some of the comments. right in lockstep with trump and similar to what is riven -- written in project 25. fan support strict policies including mass deportations. in project 2025 there is a troubling theme that has been endorsed by vance and trump, that is the gutting of the federal workforce and the end

of political independence within the executive branch. back in 2021 as vance was gearing up to run for senate he said this in an interview. >> i think what trump should do like i was giving one piece of advice, fire every single mid- level bureaucrat, every civil servant and replace them with our people and what the courts -- because you get taken to court --, the court stop you, and before the country like andrew jackson did and say the chief justice has made his ruling and let him enforce it. >> like andrew jackson. if that was somehow unclear, let me spell this out. he is calling for civil servants who serve the people regardless of the party in charge, who have background and expertise in the department they serve to be replaced entirely by loyalists and enablers. project 2025 says, quote, lyrical appointees who are

answerable to the president and have decision-making authority in the executive branch are key. the next administration must not see such a border see -- who pursue their own ends while engaging in group inc.. we don't need the experts, why would we want that? it is a striking cadenza that vance sounds almost exactly like the ideas in project 25 or when it comes to not being connected to it, he is being a little dishonest? as democratic governor of minnesota tim walz put it this week, vance is the perfect consign monster created by the heritage foundation. joining them is front of the show democratic represented jasmine crockett of texas. she is on the house oversight and accountability committee and david pepper, former chairman of the ohio democratic party. congresswoman, good morning. thank you for being here. how do you plan to communicate

the dangers of project 2025 to voters? not just around a trump presidency but understanding that even a defeat of donald trump still leaves project 2025 a looming as a problem going forward. >> first of all, thanks to msnbc a for actually discussing an issue that voters need to know about, project 2025 , instead of engaging in the extra trauma going on. second of all, it is important people understand that project 2025 is already underway. as someone who served in the texas house and had to endure the heritage foundation sending bills. about exactly what they have been doing. they have been sending bills through our statehouses and state senate. that is how we got to the point we ended up with abortion bans but they called the hartville in the state of texas. they pass it along to florida. what people need to understand and decide, if you like the

direction this country is going as it relates to our supreme court that has eviscerated our constitution, that seemingly does not care anything about court precedents and seemingly only wants to bow down to trump , as if they are serving him. in the way that eileen cannon just did a pretty that is what you would get more of. if you want to live in a country in which you are forced with the pseudo-christianity, where you have to believe in god and do the things they say their god wants you to do. i argue is the same god that they used to justify slavery in the first place. when we look with diversity, equity and inclusion with what they have done in the supreme court, we see this taking place. the issue that we do not understand is that the last nail in the coffin is trump getting into the presidency. the scariest part about that is that let us say he decides he

does not want to leave the white house. who will shake him? the supreme court has decided that shaking him is not something they are interested in doing. >> david, i want to ask you about j.d. vance. you ran the ohio democratic party. we are seeing a guy who went from being a never trumper and describing trump as america's hitler to standing next to him, arm in arm, in lockstep, as his vice presidential pick and ready to fight the fight to get to the white house. who is this guy? which side of him can we trust? it seems like he will say what is politically expedient. what is it that voters need to know about who he is at the core? >> thank you for the set up. you are a heck of a litigator and major case so well. j.d. vance has shown us that he is someone who basically will do what he needs to do to gain power or to stay in power. in many ways that is the

scariest thing of all. a few years ago you called it out, he said what he said about trump. he knew he was america's next hitler and now all he does is sing his praises. that should scare us. one thing that he made clear in recent months, what trump wanted was someone to do what mike pence refused to do on january 6th. that was the ultimate test. that level of loyalty. in recent weeks j.d. vance has made clear he would not have certified the election. he is willing to go even that far. i want to talk about 2025 for one second. i have been saying for some time trump is project 2025 in every way the association and ideas. he is trying to get away from it now. if he was trying to get away from it, the worst thing he could've done was pick j.d. vance. j.d. vance is also the personification of project 2025.

all the connections back and forth but also the heart of the issue, as you laid out, abortion bans, ivf. when you mention in particular, the heart of project 2025 is ripping away civil service and putting into place a loyalists and the doj, at the fbi. at the places that do of pandemics and hurricanes. the turn of government that is about us and making it about one man as you said, j.d. vance has been talking for a couple years. the effort to minimize project 2025 by trump, it ended when he pick j.d. vance. now you have two people and in some ways vance may be the more diehard supporter and even trump has been >> i want to stay with you for a moment. strategically when you think about picking a vice president, part of it is what they bring to the table donald trump just wanted someone who had did something different than like pence on january 6th from a strategic place, do you think

that j.d. vance shores of ohio for the president? a typical swing state. what is the field that you have politically speaking about whether this is a shift in terms of donald trump adding those delicates to his talent to get to what he needs to get back to the white house? >> i think donald trump gave democrats a gift by picking j.d. vance. he brings nothing new, politically, to the table for donald trump republicans. quick fact that gets lost, the governor of ohio in 2022 was re- elected by 25 points. j.d. vance won by more than six points. in a year you cannot lose, he underperformed the top of his own ticket by 20 points in the margin of victory. with his very right wing policies, he alienated many of the berry moderate swing voters that other republicans were winning. politically, this is a gift. vance does nothing for trump

when it comes to voters the bases mark said about trump and vance already. voters were in the middle, as we saw in 2022, rejected manse. if i had been a closer at the top of the ticket, vance would have lost. this is more about loyalty and money. it surely was not about a politically savvy decision fans does not broaden trump in any way. as we talk about today, i think he makes them more vulnerable on a lot of issue that some of the voters in the middle will care most about. >> congressman crockett, i have to ask. we have talked a lot about project 2025. some people are asking, for as much as we are trying to sell democratic voters against project 2025, where is the plan that we are pushing to sell people in favor of? what does that look like income from? >> i'm glad that you asked. i had an opportunity to turn to the rnc. they say it a lot and said nothing at all.

they talked about things such as inflation and how they were going to bring him down. did they say had to bring it down? absolutely not. we know the policies this administration put into place and we are just starting to reap the benefits from things such as the inflation reduction act. things that is the chips and science act. in ohio, where we talk about a fight in ohio, we have resulted versus rhetoric. we know that there is a new samsung factory that is over $20 billion investment right there in the hope ohio. and that is a result of president biden kamala harris. when you look for, what we do in housing costs? it is not this administration that sets the interest rates. they know the housing cost is up . they need a democratic house and senate and they want to make sure that they can put forward an opportunity for legislation to pass in which

you would absolutely receive a stipend so you can go ahead and get into a home. they want to make sure it is not just the cost of insulin that comes down. they apsley want to push and be more aggressive and use the fact that they can bargain for so many of these life-saving drugs and they want to bring that cost down. they want to continue to make sure we are bringing jobs back to america these are the things we are going to do so much as you give us the house and the senate and we are fighting for voting rights. we are absently fighting for reproduction rights. that goes with that being said >> before we go, i have to briefly ask you, even though it is a somber note. you are member of the texas delegation but we lost a huge titan and represented, sheila jackson lee, just last night. your reactions. >> i am pretty devastated. it

is an odd feeling for me. it is only the fourth black woman to ever be elected to congress from the state of texas. this time last year, three of the four of us were alive. now we are down to just myself being alive. sheila jackson lee was a warrior and a leader and a mentor and friend of mine. not only will she be missed but the country has lost a true champion. >> sobering words an important perspective. jasmine crockett and david pepper, thank you to you both. still ahead, ali cannot go on vacation without leaving as a meeting of the velshi of and book club. we will take a look at a children's book that tells the true story of a pair male penguins who raise their baby penguin together at the central park zoo. it is called and tango makes three. that is next.

25 is a go to chinstrap penguins named roy and silo lived in the central park zoo in the middle of manhattan. the zookeeper who oversaw the penguin enclosure notice that roy and silo , both male penguins, were spending much time together and displaying the same behaviors that male and female penguins generally exhibit during courtship a year later silo began sitting on an egg shaped rock in the little nest that the pair had built together. a year after that, her caretaker offered the penguin couple an egg that have been discarded by another chinstrap pair. roy and silo took turns incubating the egg for 36 days and then a little chick named tango was born this adorable true story, an unlikely family of penguins were turned into an illustrated children's book

called and tango makes three, written by peter parnell and justin richardson. the book is today's feature of the velshi banned book club utilizing illustrations that massively depict a motion, and tango makes three, is a feel- good story about family dynamics, love and identity and acceptance . on the page it is a readable family-friendly story. off the page, and tango makes three, has become a symbol in the firestorm of censorship that has engulfed literature, our libraries and our public schools. the story has become ubiquitous in my berries and literally in education circles and the penguin characters, real and in the story, have become political warriors in and of themselves. initially published in 2005, and tango makes three phase calls for ban almost immediately. in 2006 two parents in missouri complained about the books inclusion in a public library.

that challenge garnered national attention ending up as fodder for late night talk shows and segments on local news stations. even then the book was becoming solidified as a cultural touchstone a contemporary classic. since 2006 and tango makes three has been challenged in at least 32 states. why the call for removal and band year after year? the argument is that this book, this illustrated children's book that uses nothing but direct and appropriate language to tell a true story is inappropriate. in the most recent years and tango makes three has been something a little more politically charged, a tool for so-called grooming and indoctrination. a few months ago we feature documentary on the oak level examined the book banning academic through the eyes of the american that it is hurting the most, schoolchildren. it is called the abc's a book banning . elementary age

children discuss their favorite books including and tango makes three. >> it is about two penguins who are with each other and even though they had their differences from the other penguins, they can still have a child, take care of it. they could do pretty much everything but lay an egg. i do not understand. because they are still people. they are still people. is not to turn into a werewolf once they are gay, lesbian or trans . >> it is about these two penguins. they decide that they love each other. why would you get rid of this book if people can't be who they want to be? >> to some it may be surprising

that a children's book might find itself at the center of this battle. i know members of the transit banned book club will stay that way. schoolchildren are used and continue to be used as a scapegoat to justify the political whims of adults in their communities. you cannot assume that children will understand a story that depicts a family structure that is different from their own. you cannot say children do not have the capacity for tolerance and acceptance . you hurt yourself. if you asked them, they will take exactly what and tango makes three is about. it is about love. whenever the i'm joined by peter parnell and justin richardson, the co-authors of the book club feature, and tango makes three. ay. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

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richardson, the co-authors of the award-winning children's book, and tango makes three. we don't tend to begin these conversations by talking about the nature of what a book was banned. sometimes that is boring but i do want to talk about it today. peter, you and justin filed a federal lawsuit in florida in defense of keeping and tango makes three in public schools. increasingly authors are taking a legal route to defend her books. tell me about this. >> under the don't say gay law myers in florida starting pulling outlook, after book, after book off the shelves. we were so disturbed by the don't say thank me for law and the bias behind it. we were thinking about how could someone say they could challenge this law and when we heard that our book was pulled, we set up and said, we can challenge. we can challenge this law.

>> that is right. >> a federal judge briefly decided that we did have standing, despite the attempt to dismiss the lawsuit. we brought suit to a number of counties in florida and things have been going fairly well. as we said, a federal judge found that we do have standing. a federal judge ruled that the don't say gay lot does not apply to library books in florida. it cannot be used as a justification for banning books in schools in florida. another county did restore our book. we are optimistic about how things are going in florida. that said, you know, it should be set as well that the don't say gay lot is still on the books the teaching of gender identity with sexual orientation in public schools is not allowed ran that loss still stands. even if we are chipping away at it in ways that we can, that is

what we are trying to do. >> that is why these conversations are important. some of that other stuff, the bigger stuff that is bigger than your lawsuit is voters, going up there and saying, hold on a second. this is an encroachment on my rights in the same way that the bottle of roe v. wade is an encroachment on my rights. as you are, as i am and i'm sure you two are, fully in favor of parental rights, parental rights meaning your decision to guide your child's decision on what you read, not the state decision. >> that is right. as the head of the library associated division of literary freedom used to say, you're right ends where my nose begins. which is to say, you are fully free to to exercise a right not to share this book with your child. you cannot keep me from sharing

it with my child. >> part of the reason he wrote the book at the time that we did, there were very few books out there that reflected families, same-sex with two mom or two data families. or single-parent families in which children could see themselves reflected that way. that is probably why we responded to the story. when we heard about ryan silo in the new york times. >> i am saddened that when i read the introduction to your book, we cannot see your faces. i think you have the same reaction that i have every time i hear those kids, who are describing the book you wrote and the story that you told. i have no idea whether those kids are gay or straight or going to turn out to be gay straight , but it will not be imposed by your book. they saw a story about love and do not understand why anyone has a beef with this.

>> that is right. we have been interviewed a couple times and we are often asked, do you have a feeling about your book being banned? we are concerned not so much about our feelings but the dealings of the children in these schools. if you can imagine a kindergartner who has two dads or a kindergartner with two moms who finds out that this book has been pulled out of the school library because it is described as pornographic, sexual or inappropriate. just think about the impact on that child who is going to that school. think about a 12-year-old who is struggling with whether she will or will not tell some of her friends that she thinks she is lesbian to here, again, that her school has decided that this book, because it depicts a life like hers, is dangerous. that it needs to be removed from the school library. those are the people whose

feelings we are concerned about we are in the middle of a mental health crisis. we have been on a slide with mental health for the past 10 years or more. and the kids who are particularly vulnerable are lgbtq kids. we know that and those kids needs extra support. this is just the opposite. it is frightening to think about the damage that is being done right now in states like texas and florida, all over the country where these bans are happening. >> i want to read something from the author note that speaks to that. i was thing but as you guys questions individually but you are so fantastic about answering -- whoever answers the question. which everyone wants this. in the author's note you said, sometimes the characters in our books feel things that we feel but do not know yet. sometimes they say things we know but are hard to say ourselves. when we find a book like that

we keep going back to it again and again and we remember it for years. that has got to be a universal feeling. i think this everyday when i read a book, someone just said something that i think i knew but i have never said using those words are i have never expressed. it is all new and eye-opening. in a case like this, i opening is not indoctrination. i opening is not grooming. i opening is just eye-opening. >> grooming is such a repulsive term and it is based on a completely fraudulent idea of but how sexual orientation develops naturally in children. there is no scientific support for the idea that reading a book about two male penguins who hatch an egg will shape the orientation of children. it may well shape the way the child comes to experience her sexual orientation as either shameful or something that is were celebrating.

that, it may affect. the outcome of the sexual orientation, no. >> the president of the medical -- library association has made a point that children's books with illustrations are costly. they are expensive but when books like and tango makes three gets removed from public libraries or schools, there are families who may need the message that you have in that book who will have trouble getting access to them. the banning of children's books may be more consequential than the banning of other books. >> absolutely. there are many parents in this country who can just purchase a new book a week for their children but that is how children read and consume material. these mines are eager for new information, stories. the library is essential for them. i certainly and peter too, we do not grow up and she took it

to the bookstore every week. >> we went to the library. it was what you are reading the new addition of our book. we read about the importance of libraries to us personally when we were growing up. i can tell you which books really excited me and they continue to. books that were picture books that i was able to take out of the library and read again and again or have my mom read to me again and again. >> you are wonderful. thank you for joining us and thanks for what you are doing and thank you for using your power and strength to challenge these book bans. peter parnell and justin richardson are co-authors of the award-winning children's book and tango makes three and >> that does it. i am charles coleman jr. and i will be back here tomorrow. do not go anywhere. the katie phang show starts right now. right now.