♪ sing us a song you're the piano man ♪ ♪ sing us a song tonight ♪ ♪ well we're all in the mood for a melody and you got us feeling all right ♪ >> i love, love, love the garden. congratulations, mr. joel. it will not quite be the same without you, though i bet there are a few guys, including this one right here, who would happily invite you back to play any night all night long. ♪♪ >> all right. that's going to do it for me today. it's great way to end the sho "deadline: white house" starts right now. >> hi there, everyone. we made it to friday.

it's 4:00 in the east with a marvelous and organic thing, we're talking about enthusiasm. especially in politics. desperately tricky to generate, impossible to manufacture, but altogether vital for anyone with serious hopes for higher office. for that reason, recognize what vice president kamala harris has been able to accomplish in less than one week. from a low drum to a steady drumbeat to what we're seeing play out this afternoon, a crescendo rumbling across every corner of american political, civic and cultural life. the culmination of that phenomenon today, the crown jewel of endorsements for any democrat, president barack obama officially endorsing vice president kamala harris for president. in addition to a statement that suggests he and michelle obama will do, quote, everything we think to elect kamala harris the next president of the united states, the harris campaign released a video of the very moment it happened.

watch. >>. >> cam mall la. >> hello. >> hi. >> hey there. >> you're both together. it's good to hear you both. >> i can't have this phone call xhal without saying to my girl kamala i'm proud of you. this is going to be historic. >> we called to say michelle and i couldn't be prouder to endorse you and do everything we can to get you through this election and into the oval office. >> oh, my goodness. michelle, barack, this means so much to me. i am looking forward to doing this with the two of you, doug and i both, and getting out there and being on the road, but most of all, i want to tell you the words you have spoken and the friendship that you have given over all these years, mean more than i can express. thank you, both. it means so much. and we're going to have some fun with this too, aren't we? >> we're going to have some fun

with this. it was an incredible moment, right? a passing of the torch moment, one for which the anier elements of our politics, some in the democratic party have been awaiting. republicans especially somehow misinterpreted president obama's initial praise of president joe biden and silence on vice president harris in the immediate aftermath of last weekend's dramatic events as maybe a snub, but this isn't 2020 when president obama resisted pressure to endorse a candidate before bernie sanders dropped out of that race, the 44th president may have sought to avoid putting his thumb on the scale within his own party. "the new york times" explaining it, quote, one person familiar with ploeb's thinking said this week that he saw his role as helping to quickly unite the party once we have a nominee. harris' burgeoning appeal is not confined to big and important political figures. as vital as they are. what makes this moment so unique

in our politics for the vice president and her campaign, what makes her candidacy potent and terrifying for republicans, is what's happening everywhere else. propelled by a sense of newness and optimism and generational campaign, harris' campaign is raking in cash from small donors to big donors are honing in, previously disengaged americans are waking up to the election connecting with the democrats' messaging, online and in person, perhaps heeding the call from the most beloved contributors to our american culture who are also tuning in. some see the obama endorsement as a holy grail and it is but don't underestimate the effectiveness of something like this from nba superstar steph curry. >> vice president harris is primed to bring her energy to, you know, this campaign and

hopefully, you know, she's on the ticket winning the election, like it's a big deal, to say the least. she represents the bay area. she's been a big supporter of us, so want to give that energy ride right back to her. there are 102 days but who's counting, it's an eternity in politics, but one thing is for certain when it comes to enthusiasm and the attention of the general public beyond politics, vice president kamala harris and the democrats don't have to pretend. they just have to ride this wave. it's where we start with some of our favorite friends, founder and president of the national action network, host of msnbc's politics nation, the reverend al sharpton is here. joining us democratic pollster and msnbc political analyst cornell is here. hollywood correspondent lachlan cartwright is back and "los

angeles times" writer see ma meta is here. rev, i want to start with you. the work has to be done. always does. and the vice president has achieved this thing in politics that is impossible to manufacture. there are -- i mean there are debates because there are opportunities for each side to switch the momentum. there are conventions because it's widely thought of as one of the only opportunities to change the dynamic in a presidential race. other than an outside event, and we've had just a few of those in the last three weeks, momentum is next to impossible to create or manufacture. and vice president kamala harris has just about all of it. >> she has all of it, and she knows how to handle it. what she has to be wary of, you're running against one of the most unconventional presidential candidates in history who has no boundaries. you have no idea what he's going to do from one moment to the

next because he has no idea what he's going to do from one moment to the next. but let's remember for the first time in american history, you're running against someone who not only was former president, that's happened before, but you're running against someone who is running for his freedom and his money. this man has absolutely facing three more potential trials, already convicted of 34 felonies and will be sentenced probably before the election, whatever that will be, and he's already had a judgment against him in over half a billion dollars. so he has everything that he has to fight for here and if he fights desperate, we don't know what that will look like. i think she's got to fight not only like she's the underdog, but that she's fighting someone that has no principles and no boundaries. >> cornell, i like that contrast, though. he's fighting for his freedom. she's fighting for ours.

she has grabbed the mantle of freedom. it's her walkout song at this point. it's the track in the first video that the campaign released. and it is her message. it's how she's articulating the fight for safety from gun violence, the fight to make our own choices as women about our bodies. she's wrapping it all in freedom. good choices? >> well, it's almost as though she's been listening to your show for the last five or six months because it's something we've been leaning into. maybe she's watching you all right now. it's something we've -- >> i'm sure she's too busy. >> i'm glad they're leaning into it because i do like it from a thematic standpoint because it's hopeful and optimistic, right. look, i thinking what she said, i choose freedom, i think that should be on her campaign site. that's her hope and change.

it's always, you know, pointing it forward and optimistic, right. the most successful american leaders, whether republican or democrat, have leaned into this american optimism and exceptionalism. even your old boss in was to vowed to seize the moment of american promise, right. so there is something about optimism that americans want to gather around and energizes, as opposed to beating down sort of american gotham, making american gotham city, not a shiny city on the hill, trump. it pulls the energy down. this pulls the energy up and helps mobilize voters but also means higher turnout. you know, i'm building and looking at things right now at a higher turnout today than i thought -- than we would see than a month ago looking at where voters were, especially younger voters at that time. i think we're on track now to have strong turnout because of the momentum and the energy.

>> >> cornell, you never sugar coat things. what are you, as you sort of look at the race today, and how it's changed with president biden stepping out of the race and endorsing the vice president and her solidifying support, how do you sort of evaluate the state of the race today? >> the state of the race today, i'll steal something from my friend chuck todd, the vice president is the most famous unknown person in the world and right now they're going to have to spend a lot of money to fill in the blanks for the vice president. there's a lot of energy, but, you know, we've been in qualitative research and they just don't know a lot about her, sort of her past and background. there's a lot of negative stuff on the internet about how she locked up a lot of people which is fundamental mentally not true. they will have to spend a lot of money filling that in but they have the money as you've talked about early on and they have the infrastructure to do it.

when you look at the energy i think she is the closeest thing to building on and expanding the obama coalition continuum as we've had since obama stepped off the stage. >> yeah. lachlan, we have seen with her the -- i know from work on campaigns, especially republican campaigns, that hollywood is its own solar system, right. it has its own fwravty. you don't tell anybody there what to do. they do it when they feel moved to do it. it has sprung into action and it's not really top down, it's the bottom up. just tell me what's going on with the celebrity culture when it comes to vice president harris' campaign and momentum? >> it's been extraordinary, nicole. i wrote a story for "the hollywood reporter" only ten days ago about hollywood donors'

anger towards katzenberg who deserved them into believing biden was in a better condition than what he was. they were angry, stopped donating. they had basically given up. speaking to the same donors, the same hollywood executives just in the last few days, it's night and day. they're enthused. the checkbooks are back open and back out there. hollywood is very much behind the beat. in a way that i think that, you know, cannot be underestimated. these people will give and give and give in a highly organized and we're going to see that momentum continue through. >> seema, i want to ask you about this shift because there is so much reverence in our politics for president biden. in hollywood, i guess i do mean it in a derogatory way, it's more transactional and some of the anger they didn't feel like

they were getting what they were putting in. just talk about how the hope and optimism around harris might activate parts of sort of entertainment and culture that might have never been available to the either two gentlemen at the tops of their tickets. >> this does remind me of when president obama first ran and once it became clear he would be the nominee over hillary clinton in 2008 and 2012 in terms of the excitement among hollywood donors and just donors in california. california is a huge donor state. almost always gives the most in presidential candidates of both parties. the level of excitement recently has not been great. there were certainly large fund-raisers here. a big one for joe biden recently. some others. but it doesn't feel -- it felt more sort of status quo. there does seem to be a ramped up sense of excitement. not only because of her candidacy, she's younger, more

energetic, but the idea that i think they think there's a better chance of winning and a concern of [ inaudible ] not being successful. >> she's also from california. let me show you, rev, some of the early praise for the vice president from oprah and others. >> great district attorney in san francisco whose name is kamala harris. she's brilliant. she's smart. she doesn't look anything like anybody you see on "law and order." san francisco's district attorney pressed congress to repeal a law she says makes it tougher to fight crime. >> this will shackle the hands of law enforcement and government in our ability to be able to detect where and to whom guns are being sold. >> with a 90% conviction rate superstar prosecutor kamala harris made history when she was elected california's first african american female district

attorney. >> i mean, it's an interesting point that cornell makes, sort of the most famous unknown person. i know some political strategists are antsy about getting her up on television. her bio is extraordinary and i think some of the excitement in hollywood is that, you know, they know her and you heard steph curry say she's always supported us, we're going to support her. the talk about making sure that story scales across the entire country. >> i think the story has to be brought across the country, and no one knows better how to do that than cornell belcher. i think when you look at the fact that she was able to have a law enforcement background in terms of district attorney of san francisco, you -- state attorney general in california, and then on to the senate, every time she had some effort by others her opponents to say oh,

she's with the cops, she won anyway. first of all, i think they underestimate the fact that people understand w need somebody that is in those positions that will be fair, but at the same time, we need to put that message out there so as not distorted as some are doing because if you put her record up against donald trump's and put her record up against j.d. vance, it's almost a joke to try to compare the two. when you look at the fact that she's had such a way of winning across racial and age lines, i've known her since she was a d.a. in san francisco, she has shown the capacity that if her message and background is put out there, that she can bridge more of the gaps that are customary frighten people in politics. >> yeah. i think that the idea, cornell, that the trump campaign will remain in its sort of flustered

crouch will be foolish, and i'm sure the harris campaign isn't lulled into complacency. they have this moment she's dominating the media cycle completely and one issue is around the debate. he is sort of shrivelled into a ball of fear at the idea of debating her. let she show you how she's responded. >> i'm ready to debate donald trump. i have agreed to the previously agreed upon september 10th debate. he agreed to that previously. now it appears he's back pedalling. i'm ready. i think the voters deserve to see the split screen that exists in this race on a debate stage and so i'm ready. let's go. >> i'm ready. let's go. she's full of tag lines and slogans. but to that, donald trump says i don't think so. >> well, first, i do have to give a nod to -- i like the clip

you showed the late great gwen eiffel and all in the business still miss her. it's something donald trump never wants to look, the core of his brand, but right now he looks weak. he particularly looks weak like he's running from a woman which is something -- you know, the big bad tribesman never wants to do. i think he's in a really awkward position. at the same time, he knows, in fact, if he has a debate with her, the prosecutor, she's going to prosecute the case effectively against him. he's kind of in a no-win situation. it looks weak on his part for him to be running away from the debate and she is doing absolute right thing. the campaign doing the right thing not letting him get away with it, calling him out, because the last thing he wants to do is seem weak. right now he seems weak. >> everyone is staying with us.

we're going to keep our momentum up about how she companies her momentum up. all the plans and vetting and strategies taking place behind the scenes right now. turbo charged by the last seven days in american political life. the latest on vice president kamala harris' road to the nomination and who she might select to join her on the ticket. marc elias the ins and outs of all of that will be our guest. later in the broadcast dozens of former department of justice officials are warning about what is at stake in november's election. we'll talk with two of those doj alumni why they are sounding the alarm about what a second trump term would mean and backing kamala harris. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. k. don't go anywhere. ated. custom scans help you find new trading opportunities, while an earnings tool helps you plan your trades and stay on top of the market. e*trade from morgan stanley

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we're back with the reverend al sharpton, cornell belcher, lackland wright and seema. let me show you the kamala memes. these are a few of them. kamala harris announced if elected she will ban the use of rolling barn doors and hotel rooms for bathrooms. people want doors they can shut during the most private times and will bring back the miller light vortex bottles. if elected she will sign into law a bill for spice world to be available on netflix. there isn't a candidate in the race who has a more vibrant sort of meme existence than one of

the two presidential candidate gls what's extraordinary to me this hasn't been manufactured. this wasn't the campaign ready to go putting this stuff out there. it's happened organically. it's happened, you know, with kids sitting together and putting these memes together, using the charli xx album as a backdrop for one, kendrick lamar for another. they have just grown organically and the campaign has been smart to lean into it. i'll be speaking to gen-z voters and they made a good point is that their first world experience with an election was when they were 13, was when donald trump was elected. then fast forward, you know, to 2020, they were living in the middle of a pandemic. they've never had an election where there's some hope. they've had elections when there's been fear, but not hope. this has been a moment that i think is really energized a segment of the population that is usually disenfranchised.

we're going to see when they come back on campus, those conversations that are happening off line right now will be happening in person. that is going to translate to kids registering to vote, to them having real conversations with their parents and, you know, i was speaking to the rev about nays week and covering hollywood and politics, i cover media, this has been an extraordinary week, and it has been flawless rollout from the campaign that you just sit back and think, wow. we were all waiting for this moment. we've had, you know, a pretty heavy last few weeks of news. and i just think that what we're seeing online and what we're seeing being energized by generation that is usually fairly disenfranchised is nothing short of extraordinary and on this friday embrace that. >> yeah. listen, i think seema, what young people have rejected is the failure of leaders, right.

i mean there are kids who have spent their whole time in school having active shooter drills and then spent the whole pandemic at home separated and isolated from their friends and their teachers. they kind of came of age and maybe thought to register to vote and each party nominated their oldest nominee in each party's history. all of that in a moment like that has changed. i wonder what you're sort of seeing that tracks with what lackland is talking about. >> it's true. if you look back to probably when most of us were younger, we saw a lot of presidential candidates that represented generational change, whether bill clinton, whether it was barack obama, whether it was george w. bush. it was a different time compared to what we've seen in recent years. i think kamala harris has the potential to energize young voters and voters of color, but i do think while she's had an excellent week, rolled this campaign out, you know, the rollout has been incredible and

the pacing of the endorsements and everything else and letting j.d. vance, you know, trump's vice presidential nominee talk about childless cat woman which for the record i am one, they've handled the media masterfully. but i think, you know, we have to remember, not to be a downer, but her 2020 presidential campaign did not go well. she dropped out like two months before the iowa caucuses. she struggled in that campaign to find a message. she was competing against a bunch of other democrats. so she's not competing a bunch of other democrats right now. it is a different situation. but i think that while democrats are optimistic about her run, there is some potential for things to, you know, there's potential obstacles the democrats shouldn't ignore. >> rev, how has she changed since that 2020 run? >> i think that she has grown in terms of her skills better. she has certainly been able to handle pressure under fire, and

you cannot prepare for that. you have to grow into that. no one can prepare you to be vice president and now a presidential candidate, other than someone that maybe has been there can give you some advice. it has to match your temperament. she has been able to, i think, grow just naturally. she already had the grounding. she always had the talent. but i think that the temperament and the ability to really take the incoming fire has been very noticeable to those of us that know her. she's comfortable in her own skin and she gets everyone else at ease around her. >> cornell, how do you sort of take this week and sustain it for 104 days? >> that is are the million dollar question, right. it is hard to do through the slug fest as you know that's coming, the slug fest through

august, and as a daily grind of the campaign. so it happened organically and i want to underline what rev says there. she is so much better today than she was a couple years ago, right. the office and the time and the space has sharpened her in a way that it tends to do with leaders. she's comfortable in her skin right now as a leader. the best do get that way. a lot of you all forget obama wasn't all that -- wasn't what we have now in '07, right. skills get sharpened and you can see that in her. i think a lot of it is about allowing the young people to continue to do what they're doing, right, and not get in the way of it. that does harken me back to '08 when early on when obama announced, young people on college campuses started organizing on their own without the campaign, events for obama and many years ago people would pull back from that because they wanted to keep a tight control of the message and a tight

control of everything around the campaign. today i think it's more like, look, the most creative and best minds are out there. there are influencers in social media spaces and heck t i don't know what brat means, but they're out there doing it and you get out of their way and let them keep doing it. >> all right. lackland, i have to give you the last word. take us to school on brat. >> it's all -- it's way above my pay grade. it's, you know, embracing the younger in all of us and she's done that. >> all right. we'll try to keep up with the cultural wave here. it's quickly outpacing the political america. i think that's a good thing. cornell, lachlan, seema, thank you for starting us off. rev sticks around for the hour. when we come back vice president kamala harris is vetting vice presidential picks. we'll talk to our friend marc

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this summer. snacking. just. got. serious. introducing new $3 footlong dippers. the world might not be ready for them... ...but at $3 a pop? your wallet definitely is. . even before vice president kamala harris picked offer history making ons campaign trail, republicans began plotting what action they can take to keep joe biden's name on the ballot if he decided to step aside.

here's mike johnson sunday morning before the president's announcement. >> look, i'm a former litigator, constitutional law attorney. i made note in some comments over the last week that they have real problems. every state has their own election system. that's our constitutional system. that's the way it's done. in some of these states it's a hurdle. they have a real problem of replacing the nominee at the top of the ticket. >> it's part of the republican strategy saying something often enough to make it true. any legal action wouldn't get very far considering the fact that president biden was not the official democratic nominee and ballots have not started to be prepared. no candidate is the official nominee until after the democratic convention delegates hold a roll call vote. that is scheduled to happen august 1st. today a survey at cnn finds 48 states say harris can got on the ballot instead of biden,

rejecting the claim from republicans that the switch breaks state laws. joining our conversation is someone who knows voting rights attorney, founding of democracy docket, the rev with us as well. i think five minutes, i actually, mark, you were the first persons to send me the text and copy of president biden's letter announcing he was leaving the race and rachel asked me on the air how i found out, i said i heard from you. thank you for being my early weather system. but you also tweeted moments after the president's letter became public that the vice president will be on all ballots in all 50 states. will you explain that to us? >> sure. first of all, i just, before the conspiracy theorists began, i didn't know anything more than anyone else. it is probably a commentary on the sad life i lead on how much i follow twitter that i got it before you did. >> yeah. >> and sent it to you. >> you sent me the post.

it was public. everything was in the public. i was in the backyard with my baby. nothing behind the scenes. it was like 1:55. that's how behind i was. >> just wanted to clear that up because, you know, a whole new set of mike johnson crazy. i think there is, you know, there is frifb lus, like rudy giuliani frifb lus and then there's what mike johnson is trying to do which is more frivolous than the usual nonsense from republicans. the only gripe with the cnn analysis they should make it clear that kamala harris will be on all 50 ballots plus the district of columbia. as you point out, there is no current democratic party nominee. the democratic party will choose its nominee when the delegates to the democratic national convention vote as part of this virtual roll call vote and then at that point the dnc will certify to all 50 states plus the district of columbia who

their nominee is and that name will go automatically under every state's ballot access law, automatically go on to the ballot in all 50 states. so, you know, mike johnson is an excellent insurrectionist, mediocre speaker of the house, but a terrible constitutional lawyer. >> so there's always a why though? what is the why for why they are sewing doubt at this point? >> i think they're desperate. they planned an entire campaign to run against joe biden. you know, chris and suzy were taking victory laps with reporters in the atlantic how they were ready to take on biden and win a landslide. all of a sudden, instead of joe biden, they have kamala harris, the only place i disagree with your prior guests, someone who was a general counsel to her campaign in 2020, she was an excellent candidate in 2020, sure she's better now, but she was a great candidate then, and

we are lucky to have her now and the rnc is scared of her, donald trump terrified of her, backing out of debates and it is a joy to watch mike johnson squirm as he realizes his days in the speaker's chair are numbered. >> knowing her as you do, what do you think her approach is to selecting her own vice president? >> i think kamala harris is a very prepared person. she in many respects reminds me of some of the great elected leaders of our time, people who are very, very prepared. nancy pelosi is someone who is very, very careful. she never called a vote in the house that she didn't know she was going to win. that wasn't by accident. because she was so prepared. i think that vice president harris will take her time and look over all of the range of options in front of her and i think she will ask the question, who is going to be the best person to help me govern this country through a period of difficult times? i'm sure whoever she chooses

will be a great choice. >> she is an incredibly powerful voice on something you and i have been talking about every week, sometimes multiple times a week, that is the effort by republicans to make it harder to vote. she's an advocate for voting rights. let me show you some of what she had to say. >> the baton is in our hands. we, who believe in the sacred freedom to vote, we, who are committed to fight to pass the john lewis voting rights advancement and the freedom to vote act -- [ applause ] in this moment across our nation, we witness a full-on attack on hard won, hard fought freedoms. while you teach students about democracy and representative government, extremists attack

the sacred freedom to vote. we must continue to stand together in defense of freedom. we, who believe in the sacred freedom to vote, will make sure then that every american has the ability to cast their ballot and have it counted. >> she's an incredibly sort of talented political athlete, if you will, and i haven't heard this formulation, but i love it, extremists attack the sacred freedom to vote. the right to vote and making it easier to vote is another 80-20 issue in terms of the views of the american public. american people understand it's something that should be getting easier as we become more modern and tech friendly and because of the republican extremism, it's getting harder. talk about her as a unique messenger on this single issue. >> look, part of the reason i am so passionate about voting rights, part of the reason i

have become such an advocate has to do with the influence that kamala harris had on me during her time in the senate. you know, people don't realize that when she became vice president the one issue she said that she wanted to be front and center on was voting rights. if you look at her convention speech and go back and read it accepting the nomination of vice president she talked about this topic. a really underreported thing she was one of the best advocates in the days of the pandemic when she was in the senate, she introduced one of the best bills that didn't pass, but it was a forerunner to the freedom to vote act that was really a very, very smart bill to try to solve the problem for voting in 2020, and, you know, there's a lot of talk in recent days, at least in the jewish american community, about what politicians feel, and i can tell you as someone, you know, who has spoken to kamala harris over the course of years she feels democracy and voting

right. it is central to who she is and the best leading advocate in the country even before this on this issue. >> we can't have this conversation without bringing in the rev in. i have to sneak in a quick break first. to be continued on the other side. tonight go anywhere. ere. why do some things have to be so complicated? we don't know either stanley... but at least when it comes to dental care aspen dental makes getting new dentures and implants easier. with the technology and expertise to give you the right fit

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we're back with mark and the reverend al sharpton. we have all been on the air and track the efforts in 48 states to make it harder to vote, some

of them successful. "the new york times" reports this, as democrats prepare for a sprint to capitalize on the excitement of a new presidential ticket by signing up new voters they're finding new barriers in florida and some other states to voter registration drives that have been a campaign staple for both parties. how well prepared are we to work around the republican voter suppression efforts >> i think very prepared. i think many groups both in state -- at a state level in terms of state government and then independent advocacy groups like the group i lead nationally, have now gone through this cycle for three or four different elections so we know how to deal with both fighting in the legislation where they're trying to stop voting by drop boxes, in some states to things where they are trying to interfere with voter

registration, now it does not mean that it's not challenging, but i think that many groups have more expertise, more experience, and know where to try to penetrate than when we were caught off guard years ago. i also think there's a determination among those in the state legislature to fight those particularly in states that are dominated by a red state, red legislatures who want to fight this, how they fight this battle on the legislative floor so the public understand what's going on. >> mark, i think we covered months ago, maybe years ago, efforts to make it harder to vote on college campuses. i wonder if there are renewed efforts because of the excitement among young voters over kamala harris' candidacy to make sure those republican efforts are unsuccessful? >> so look, i can tell you and you know this because we've

talked about this, my legal team and i fight every day in court to protect the right to vote, particularly for black, brown and young voters, and there is nothing short of a massively well-fundamentaled operation on the other side to target those groups. we sued wisconsin to restore drop boxes and won. we sued wisconsin to reject -- prevent unnecessary rejections of mail-in ballots and we won. we are suing florida and winning in florida against these voter registration efforts. as quickly as we are able to bring the lawsuits the other side is erecting barriers. not only passing laws, not only trying to stop the election offices with election deniers but they are going to court and that is one of the things that we cover a lot of, how much anti-voting litigation right now, the stephen millers, rnc, are bringing in court every day to try to use the courts as a tool not to protect constitutional rights but to

deprive them. >> you know, rev, you look at what -- everything donald trump did in 2020, there was almost more effort involved new hampshire overturning his defeat than there was in turning out his own base, right. he's working as early as july to deny the results of an election that hasn't transpired. tom fitton, his ally, sends an e-mail refusing to accepts the results the summer before the fall election, six months ahead of the deadly insurrection. what is our obligation to anticipate in terms of what trump might do this time? >> i think that we must anticipate it. he's sent every signal early this is where he's going to go. donald trump will never concede followers and supporters to have a very cynical view unless of course he wins the election. and again, he is fighting with light. he's fighting to win an

election, he's fighting for his freedom and his money. and i think that he will continue to plant seeds of doubt and i think -- i think that mark is right, there is a well financed machine that is trying to deny people's rights to vote and i think that there are people like mark and others that are skilled at fighting this back. but we must back them 100%. because there is about -- it is about saving the democracy not just empowering certain communities. >> yeah, i mean, mark, i know that you and your legal team are everywhere all at once. but what is everyone else have to offer to this fight? >> look, everyone has something to offer. i mean, let's start with all of the groups doing the hard work on the ground to contact voters and to educate them. rev is right and that work is twoing on and it is critically important and it is vitally important that it also be funded. and then every citizen in this

country has an obligation right now. in 20 years and in 30 years, if you're watching this, your children and your grandchildren will come and ask in 2024, what did you do when democracy was at stake. they're not going to ask you about gas prices or wall street, when donald trump was threatening democracy's very foundation, what did you do. so you can volunteer for a campaign and volunteer to be a poll worker and work for a nonprofit, doing voter registration and get out the vote and most importantly you could speak out on social media to your friends, your families and your bridge club your knitting club, tell people, it is critical that they register to vote and that they vote for kamala harris and the democratic party ticket up and down. >> mark alias and reverend al sharpton. thank you. i'm so grateful to you. a quick break for us. we'll be right back.

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some brand-new exclusive reporting from nbc news. vice president kamala harris today called the family of sonia massey, massey is a 36-year-old black woman who was shot by a sheriff's deputy in his illinois home. she was killed july 6th after she called police because she was afraid there was a prowler. body camera footage showed her letting the officers inside and picking up a pot of bowling water and ducking while saying i'm sorry when the officers drew

their weapons before she was shot. the deputy has been fired by the department and indicted on charges of first-degree murder, aggravated battery with a firearm and official misconduct. massey's father said this about his call with vice president harris. quote, it is made me feel a lot better today. she gave us her heartfelt condolences and she let us know that she is with us 100%. massey's parents and attorney ben crump will be on politics nation with rev al sharpton this sunday into and now the risk to the rule of law and the future of our very democracy in the words of month than 40 former doj officials who have served press release presidents from both parties. next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. s after a quick break. so you can put an end to the itch.

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do the fbi have to go through background checks? >> yes. >> would someone with dozens of felony convictions survive a back ground check for the bureau? >> no. >> so they would never be hired by the bureau? >> no. >> um, well clearly the bureau has -- you don't have to comment on this and i know you won't, clearly they have higher standards for their hiring than one of america's great political parties. >> hi, again, everybody. just a fact. isn't it. it is 5:00 in the east. the list of jobs not open to a twice impeached four times indicted convicted of 34 felony

counts and found liable of sexual assault is long and growing. that kind of rap sheet means the fbi wouldn't hire him. even the local mall would turn donald trump away. and yet, and yet here we are. a man who could not remotely clear a background check to work in a white house, for all kinds ever jobs big and small has been selected and anointed by the republican party as their first choice, their only choice to be the leader of the free world. and while the republican party refuses to acknowledge the rank hypocrisy in that, an extraordinary group of men and women who have dedicated their lives and nir careers to the rule of law are speaking out for the first time. nbc news was first to obtain this powerful call to action signed by more than 40 former justice department officials thanking president biden and endorsing vice president harris and offering a blunt warning about the danger of putting donald trump back in the oval

office. they write this, quote, the fabric of nation, the rule of law an the future of democracy are at stake in this election. the stakes could not be higher. former president trump presents a grave risk to our country, our global alliances and the future of democracy. as president, he regularly ignored the rule of law. one of his first acts was to order an unconstitutional muslim travel ban. his last act was to try to stay in power by defying election results and the will of the american people. in between he put in place extremely conservative supreme court justices, who reversed long standing precedents and legal protections, stripping women of reproductive rights and gutting environmental protections and granting trump virtual immunity for his official acts. and a shot across the bow about the dangers of a second trump presidency comes from a whose

who. former officials who served under presidents of both parties, former u.s. attorneys who served in offices from coast to coast, a top justice department leaders like former attorney loretta lynch and former acting attorney general sally yates. when that level of justice department fire power joins forces to sound the alarm about a clear ant present danger to the rule of law and our democracy, it is incumbent on us as voters to pay attention. sos where we start the hour with our favorite experts and friends. former lead investigator, tim hathy is here and jamie gurola is here and also joining us former prosecutor with the department of justice andrew weissmann is here. jamie, you do not speak out often, particularly in the

context of partisan politics. tell me what is behind the letter? >> nicolle, this is a call to action. we are very worried about what happens to the justice department, which we revere, in a second trump administration. the rule of law is so fundamental to who we are as a country and yet it would be threatened drastically threatened by donald trump. >> jamie, i think some of what the country went through during the first trump term was so -- he did a volume business of scandal. but i wonder what the benefit of a president biden sort of stable four years and merrick garland's stewardship of that department, when you look back, how do you rank the abuses in terms of most egregious to also ran. >> it is hard to know where to begin. but one of the highest ranking i

would name would be his direction to his department of justice to prosecute his political opponents. happily, in his first term, there were people who said, no. that won't happen in a second term. he will use the department of justice to achieve his political ends. and, you know, he started with vance and he ended with the insurrection and everything in between is -- is an anthema to the rule of law and to what we think of as our department of justice standing apart, ensuring that the -- the laws are applied fairly, i mean, it would be a disaster. >> you know, and sort of like a puppy that you're trying to potty train, there are a lot of -- he did, you know, to keep the potty training puppy

metaphor going, he did have a lot of accidents on the rug in his effort to use the department to prosecute his friends. i mean, jeffrey berman wrote a book and talked about being asked by d.c. to prosecute folks where he thought the facts weren't there and michael cohen has written a book that he believes the bureau of prisons sent him to solitary for wanting to write a book. and john durham investigated individuals for four years and came up with two unsuccessful prosecutes of other individuals. there were efforts to weaponize. he's saying le operational in a second term. could you tell us what that looks like? >> the career people at the department of justice were during the trump term the stalwart who stopped a great deal of -- of mischief and worse from happening. those people were hanging by

their fingernails by the time that merrick garland was sworn in as attorney general. he has done everything he can to restore that sense of the rule of law, the purpose of the department of justice. and the problem is that most of those -- most of those constraints are norms. and trump is norm busting. i'm not going to go with your potty training metaphor. i just can't go there. but i will tell you, he is a danger. he is a danger to the rule of law. the rule of law is not just a concept. it is a -- it is fundamentals to our country. it is fundamental to our businesses. one of the biggest advantages that u.s. business has, it could tell its customers and people in other countries, you have rights that could be adjudicated in the united states. and if we don't have that, if we

don't have fair application of the law in this country, we're dead. we are dead. so, this letter came together in 24 hours. people said, we have to alert the nation to the dangers. >> i mean, jamie, i've heard what you just said about if you don't have the rule of law, you don't have a vibrant economy. where are the business leaders? >> we didn't ask them to sign the letter and i don't know where their letter is. it is interesting, on january 6, what happened, the business community condemned the insurrection. and stopped making political contributions to people who would have taken the election results away from joe biden. where they are today, i don't know.

i'm hopeful that business leaders will see the threat to their businesses, their shareholders, and frankly their souls. >> tim hathy, sometimes we have to sift through signals trump sends and sometimes he just said it out loud. here he is on univision saying this out loud. >> you say they've weaponized the justice department and the fbi. would you do the same if you're re-elected. >> if they do this. they've already done it. but if you want to follow through on this, yeah, coy certainly happen in reverse. it could certainly happen in reverse. what they've done is released the jeanne out of the box. if i happen to be someone that is the president and beating me well and i say go down and indict them. mostly that would be, they would be out ever business. they would be out. they would be out of the

election. >> the jeanne is in the bottle, not the box. but the most egregious part is saying if someone were beating him in an election, he would go down and indict them. this is where we are. this is our choice. >> yeah, it is shocking. nicolle, for anyone, like me or jamie or andrew, who grew up in the department, and revere the place, the historic independence and integrity of the place. the best response i could have to all of this is to contrast it to my experience when i was appointed by president obama as a u.s. attorney. i told you this story on the show before. that he brought all of the newly appointed u.s. attorneys together in the east room of the white house and the first thing that he said to us was you're not my lawyers. i don't want you for a minute to make a decision based on what you think is best for me or for this administration. you're there to do justice. you're there to work for good of

the people of your district and that is what democrats an republicans have said and attorney generals have said through the years until now until what i fear would be an attorney general appointed more on the basis of potential loyalty than competence, who would not respect that historic tradition. so it is frightening and that is why i lent my name to the litter. we can't let that happen. >> i think you're uniquely situated to articulate how far trump traveled in this endeavor in the first term. let me show you some of the evident for the select committee. >> who is jeff clark? an environmental lawyer with no experience relevant to leading the entire department of justice. what was his only qualification? that he would do whatever the president wanted him to do. including over throwing a free and fair democratic election. >> i made the point that jeff clark is not even able to serve

as the attorney general. he's never conducted a criminal investigation in his life and much less a trial jury. and he kind of retorted by saying will i've done a lot of very complicated appeals and civil litigation and environmental litigation and things like that. and i said, that is right, you're an environmental lawyer. how about you go back to your office and we'll call you when there is an oil spill. and pat cipollone weighed in at one point, and i remember saying that, letter that this guy wants to send, that letter is a murder-suicide pact. it is going to damage everyone who touches it. and we should have nothing to do with that letter. >> it goes without saying, there would be no richard donaghues in a second trump department of justice. explain what it would look like instead. >> there were guardrails thankfully. what we found was that after

attorney general barr, rich donahue, acting attorney general jeff rosen and after official after official told the president directly, there is just no evidence of systemic voter fraud, he refused to believe it. instead, he proposed the installation of an acting attorney general, this guy jeff clark, who not only was not qualified an the merits to serve in that position, but was prepared to take action that had no basis in fact or law. and but for rich donahue and a lot of others who came together and said we're all going to resign, the pat cipollone, the murder-suicide pact argument, but for strong republican lawyers, partisans of this administration, stepping forward it could have happened and you could have already in the first trump term had a justice department that was truly weaponized or truly willing to take action without foundation. i don't have any confidence that the rich donahues, that the pat

cipollones will be there this time, nicolle. that is why the stakes are so high for the department of justice and beyond in this election. >> andrew weissmann, i feel like we've had a ongoing conversation about the threats to the rule of law. the real threat in november is the elimination of the rule of law. have we spent enough time contemplating that? >> for the people who you're speaking to on this program, i don't think any of us could think we could spend enough time on that. i want anybody to understand who jamie gerola is here and she does not appear the way we do. she was the deputy attorney general under janet reno and is revered by people who were in the department and outside of the department. and as you mentioned, does not

do this, you know, and appear the way tim and i do, this is a big deal. i remember jamie saying to me, with respect to the first muslim ban, this is sort of an i am sparticus moment. it is a time that people have to stand up and be counted. and i just want to make sure that people understand the significance of her and the other people who signed this letter, that these are people who are not partisan. these are people who believe in the rule of law, who have served in the justice department under democrats and republicans. and you know, this is one where just to take on what donald trump was saying about this is sort of tit-for-tat, whatever you could say about merrick garland, he's overseen the prosecution of the son of the president. he appointed a special council and has not appeared in anyway

and that is gone forward and it is still going forward. he has seen the conviction of a sitting democratic senator in new jersey. and this is not an 80/20 issue. this is a 100/0 issue. is there anyone who thinks that it is appropriate for the department of justice to say i'm not going to prosecute someone because their a democrat or because they're a republican. for the three of us, for tim, for jamie, for me, we didn't care what party it was. if you committed a crime, and it was a righteous case, you brought it and that is why you're seeing people speaking out. >> and andrew, i want you just to follow up on the threat of what -- what the threat is and as we really, i think as the race settles it, hasn't even been a week, but with the president stepping off the ticket, the vice president now sort of grabbing all of the momentum in the political arena,

what is the case to the american people about the threat to the rule of law? >> well, to speak about it, joe biden first, he has consistently said when he became president, that he was going to let the justice department do what it needed to do in the same way that tim spoke about president obama. and that is very much the tradition that any career prosecutor like kamala harris, it is just in our bones that you are dispassionate and you adhere to the rule of law. you know, what country that do not have a rule of law are once we do not want to live in. we do not want to be in russia, why the justice department manufactures evidence and goes after people would are political and enemies and doesn't go after people who are friends. we don't have to imagine that

this is something that donald trump would do in a trump 2.0 administration. he did it already. i am living witness to it. this is not -- this is not something that you need to take my word for. it is absolutely clear that he did it during the mueller investigation, he did it in terms of appointing john durham engage in, you know, really skur lus activity that led to not one but two unanimous verdicts against him. you have bill barr interfering in cases and taking positions that you would never take with respect to any other defendant but for the fact that somebody was a friend or a foe. that is exactly what you do not want in the justice department. it is what everyone in the justice department, republican or democrat. >> and it is sort of hard to

talk about it. because for all of us in the justice department, it was irrelevant what party you were in and no one ever really thought about that. it was a kind of thing that would only come up in a sort of trump administration where it became something that you had to think about it. this is really about the facts and the law and clear kamala harris like joe biden, like barack obama, and just to make it not political, also you could relate it to the bush administration just as deeply, that these people believe in the rule of law and do you not have that in the trump administration. >> all right, no one is going anywhere. there is so much more to discuss. as andrew said, it is ott often we get to speak to jamie so we're going to speak her return. we're going to turn to norm busting and turmoil as the nation's highest court and taum talk about the fallout and the concern about ethics at the highest court in the land and it is a pattern.

another day and another toxic and insulting and shocking comment unearthed revealing gop vice presidential nominee's j.d. vance disdain for women and his urgency felt by women across the country to get vice president kamala harris elected in november. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. ... ...my fear of recurrence could've held me back. but i'm staying focused. and doing more to prevent recurrence. verzenio is specifically for hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive early breast cancer... ...with a high chance of returning, as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence versus hormone therapy alone. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an antidiarrheal, and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. life-threatening lung inflammation can occur. tell your doctor about any new or worsening trouble

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>> that was president joe biden underscoring his plans to use the last six months to call for supreme court reform and now one of the justices, alena kagen has said that she would support the creation of a committee of judges to examine potential violations of the supreme court new ethics code and going further saying of the new proposed ethics code for the court, this, quote, rules usually have enforcement mechanisms attached to them. and this one, this set of rules does not. she said, adding, that quote, however hard it is, we could and should try to figure out some mechanism for doing this. we're back with tim hajy and jamie and andrew weissmann. jamie, what is your theory for why john roberts isn't at the table trying to do something meaningful that would help bolster the integrity and the perception of sort of the decency of the men and women of

the supreme court and the institution itself. >> i don't know. and i don't know that any ever us can know. but elena kagen, probably has an idea that the chief justice can move incrementally here. now that is clear that it took a long time to get to an ethics code that they all agreed on, has come across because there is no enforcement mechanism, she's challenging him and giving an idea of what that would be. she's a very smart tact is and i think that she thinks this will work. we'll have to see. >> jamie, we sort of resorted to watching the liberal justices blink in morris code to understand what is really going

on and there have been some signs. i mean you have justice sotomayor talking about crying in her office and justib kagen being a wall banger and then you have the dissents which were written for the ages. presidents are not kings and the community decision and the scathing dissent in the chevron case and in dobbs and the statements made during oral arguments. what is your sense of the ideology discord on supreme court today? >> i think the democratic appointees are miserable and as well as they should be. i think several of the republican appointees, particularly the two of the trump appointees, are -- are unprincipled. and when you grow up in the law, particularly in you get to the ranks that supreme court

justices come from, you expect to have a legitimate discourse. and from their dissents and some of their comments, you could tell that they do not feel that that is happening. and that is really sad. my image of these three friends of mine sitting in a conference room with people whose judgment they disagree with and whose way of thinking they cannot provide, it is just a sad image. we shouldn't -- on our courts, there has been a high calling and i sense that the collegeality that you need for our court to function is to say the least brave. >> i mean, you think about what

we understood in terms of collegeality between scalia and ginsburg, who aren't here to correct me, but that is an impression that no one ever knocked down and then you have justice alito to someone who he thought was -- that he's not for compromised possible. i mean, jamie, what do we -- what do we do? what is available? is ethics reform at the court achievable? >> i think ethics reform at the court is achievable. i thought kagen's idea is a good one and i think she's thoughtfully nudging in that direction. and would you like to make two other comments. one is i saw with ginsburg, she related to her colleagues. i saw the affection on the -- on

the the bench even when they disagreed tremendous. and i'm just not seeing that now. the republicans have voted based on the courts and democrats have not. to our detriment. and some of us, and i suspect all three of us on this show this evening, has urged our fellow countrymen to think about the court as a primary issue as we are choosing presidents. democrats just thought that it would be fine and it is way not fine. i think the only solution is time. honestly, we have got to elect presidents and senates that will give us better justices than we have. that is the real solution. if you pack the court, the next judge, the next president will pack it more. that is not a solution.

>> yeah. what about term limits, jamie. is that something that should be discussed or debated or does that lead to the same challenge? >> so, i think that is a fair question. that is a fair question. -- was designed to insolate members of the judiciary from pressure. the term on it, particularly if it is a long one, wouldn't make justices or judges subject to political pressure, they would just know when their term is. i think that is -- that solution is worth discussing. >> i could not agree more. i mean, i obviously worked in republican politics and democrats have public opinion,

democrats have sort of a wind at their backs in terms of the public really understanding the danger of discord in this formation with these dynamics. jamie, it is a treat to talk to you and tim and andrew, it is always a treat to you have here. thank you so much for starting us off today. up next, so many people joined a zoom call last night aimed at mobilizing white women to help the harris campaign that in the words of the organizers, they, quote, broke zoom. more than 100,000 women raised millions of dollars. we'll bring you that story next. . we'll bring you that story next. , so they only pay for what they need. got it? [squawks] did you get that? only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty,♪ ♪liberty, liberty.♪

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if we have learned anything about j.d. vance in the mere week and a half he's been on donald trump's ticket, is that he's spent the past few years saying some of the weirdest, most offensive and off-putting things imaginable. specially about women. case in point, newly uncovered audio by media matters has him railing against people whose families look different than his. listen. >> one of the things that i've beat up on the left about is that so many of their leaders, their next generation leaders, you know, the aocs, the cory booker and the kamala harris and they don't have kids and they want to take out kids and brain wash them so their ideas to be for next generation and i say look, leave your hands off ever our children.

stop trying to brain wash them. families get to raise their children, not the state, not the leaders of the left. if you want to brain wash children, have your own kids to brain wash and leave your hands off of mine. >> no evidence that any of that is true. and just a little editorial reminder, to j.d. vance, kamala harris does have children, she has step children. ella and cole and they have rejected the implication they are not her children. and nbc news has uncovered him saying that people without children should be punished by paying higher taxes. vance said that his comment about childless cat ladies were sarcastic comments and and it

was a thought experiment. listen to this attempt to clean up. >> i know the media wants month me to attack and me and wants me to back down and meg-in, but the simple point is that i think it is madepy parents and whether your a mom or dad, the thing that you're most proud of is having kids. what you're kids do, the relationship that you have with your family. that is what i think brings the most meaning to life is family, not all of the weird little accomplishments and degrees and everything else, right. >> you know, not working. not working. the idea that people haven't had children don't have rewarding lives is still offensive to everyone. even those of the us with kids. so it is no surprise, give given j.d. vance's commitment to keep digging in his repeated attacks on the women of this country and

the overall stakes of the election, but that women have been passionately and doggedly organizing for vice president harris and against j.d. vance and donald trump. the zoom call with the group win with black women just hours after harris announced her candidacy, raised more than $1.5 million. it inspired a white women for kamala harris doom call last night which had 164,000 participants. >> raising more than $8.5 million. let's bring in the founder of moms for action and the organizers shanann watts and joining us media matters angelo cara. i've seen a lot of results on social media and tell me about the call last night. >> it was unbelievable. as you said, there was a call sunday, just hours after kamala harris was a clear nominee by

win with black women. what they did in a few hours was amazing. 44,000 people on a conference call. over a million and a half dollars raised. so we wanted to do the same as white women. we have different work to do than black women do in all but two elections since 1950, the majority of white women have voted for the republican candidate. so we decided to have more of a reckoning than a rally. and to have this conversation about how white women can do better, the fact that we have regressed about what happened in 2016 and then even more white women voted for donald trump against joe biden. so there has to be a change in this voting pattern. we have to flip the script. and last night was that conversation. i nev imagined we have 200,000 participants across all media platforms and when the call was over we thought we raised about $2 million which blew the doors off of expectation and then this morning i said an email we have been processing one donation a

second afrd raised over $8.5 million for kamala harris. so, look, i think that these calls are happening are important and valuable and they get new volunteers in the door and new dollars but now time to come together as a coalition and we're going to do that through women for harris. there is a huge call on monday night and i believe women are the secret sauce to organizing. i've seen that for over a decade with moms in action and we're going to get kamala harris over the finish line in 100 days and she'll be the president of the united states. >> shannon, you said so much that i want to drill down on it. i need another hour. bup let me start here. the margin among white women could be determinative. and that margin is what really elected donald trump. it was more than that, but it was without the margins that he runs up or has run up with white women, he can't win. why do you think he does so well with white women?

>> i mean, we're steeped in white supremacist and patriarchy. that is the short answer of it. white women are the largest voting block in this country. about 40% but however we are divided among different lines, religion and marital status and a slight shift in our voting patterns could swing entire elections. and the clips you were playing before, which just made my blood pressure go through the roof, punishing women wore not having children and calling them cat ladies and trying to remove their right to abortion or ivf, those are important issues that will get women who have been on the fence or the wrong side of the voting pattern to come over to kamala harris. i truly do. you were talking about thought experiment, where we don't elect two white men who want to punish women for existing and who think they're only identity is to procreate. let's not do that. and we have a real choice in 100

days and the choice is clear. we're choosing between freedom and fascism. and i hope white women will do the right thing. >> let me may some of what happened on this zoom last night for our viewers. >> i'm on my way home at 3:00 in the morning, and i've never felt more awake and alive. >> this is the time for us to act every single day for the next 102 days. >> we have been given permission to love ourselves enough to see a different future. as of sunday and to fight like hell for it. >> the hope that everybody is feeling, it feels really good. >> we will stand sturdy and proud knowing that we were among the women who finally united and we won. we won. and we saved the [ bleep ]

world. >> i love all of them so much individually and then to see all of this together is really powerful, shannen. and we owe this back and forward. and talk about the cracks though. what is happened in kansas, what happened in north carolina, i think it is a combination of white women's regret, maybe over not supporting hillary clinton in '16 and donald trump ushers in the supreme court that takes away a right that women in this country had for 50 years. >> i agree. there is no excuse for having voted in donald trump and now in hindsight wee see how dangerous he was and he had no idea what he was doing and he does now. and project 2025 will be implemented starting day one. so we have the history of what happened. we know what they're planning for future. and in the meantime, we've seen the impact of their policies. women's right to reproductive

freedoms have been removed and maternal health care is getting worse. there are so many different ways that we'ren dangered, including gun rights. giving easy access to guns no questions asked. so this is a toxic stew that brewing and i do believe and hope and we've been predicting this in every presidential election, white women are going to shift toward the democratic candidate and it never happens. i hope and believe that is the time that white women will use their voice and their votes to vote in the first black, first aapi, first woman president in the history of our nation -- in the history of our nation. >> j.d. vance has entered the zoom. not really. it just sounded right. we're going to talk to angelo about the extraordinary driver perhaps of all feel votes on the other side. don't go anywhere. other side don't go anywhere.

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trump. >> we're back with shannon and angelo. angelo, donald trump picked j.d. vance in another political moment, but j.d. vance is what donald trump believes. it is how he sees the world and it is consistent with project 2025 which is the blueprint for a second trump presidency. >> yeah, completely. j.d. vance is -- trump gets away with it to a degree to some of what she said, even among his own people, because they assume there is a character on top of it. he's just saying that stuff, but deep down there is some degree that he's going to be less terrible. but vance is a reflection of what is the right wing fever swaps. all this idea about family, the notion that a woman is not valuable unless they are married and/or have children. all of that is stuff he didn't come up with.

he started to incorporate into his public messaging when he was trying to win a primary in ohio. he decided was to parrot back -- it was to parrot out right wing media. it's what donald trump believes. because donald trump has this long brand, a wrestling character can get away with theatrics, it doesn't turn into the same sort of questioning moment. it doesn't lead to the same inflection that when you hear it from a person like j.d. vance who doesn't have character or charisma and actually looks and sounds and feels a little uncomfortable, uneasy and weird, you say, i don't like that. what he says, that doesn't resonate with me when you put it together. that's where the difference is. j.d. vance isn't saying anything different than trump says or believes or project 2025, but

it's forcing people to think about it. >> i don't buy trump regrets picking j.d. vance because of the awful things he stands for. i think he regrets the press he is getting. talk about the symmetry between 2025 and what j.d. vance has said. >> there's a strong relationship between j.d. vance and kevin roberts, the head of the heritage foundation who is driving the project 2025 stuff. he wrote the forward for the book where all the proceeds are going towards funding additional work related to the project 2025. the heritage foundation has celebrated j.d. vance as the selection. they praised vance. there's one -- there's the deep alignment. two, what vance says is exactly what we see in project 2025.

this idea that you are not just going to punish women for abortions but go further and track menstrual cycles so you can find out and sniff out examples of people getting extra legal abortions. the design around trying to emphasize family and a more intense way to create hierarchy where family has more power. to your point, what is blowing back on -- what is perceived to be not because of what vance reflected or says, it's that he is getting negative press. the way donald trump tried to distance himself from project 2025, it's the same thing. vance isn't doing anything or saying anything that is that different than what trump says or project 2025 says. it's that he got negative press because he isn't tested. the person that will get more

blowback is not vance. it's donald junior. it's an articulation of the ideas that have been incubating in the right wing for years. we can see percolating in right wing media. they see it as a chance to implement that. vance is a big part of that. all of the things we are talking about, these happened on media programs because he was trying to appeal to an audience. it was to get tucker in his pocket. tucker convinced trump to endorse this. he was one of the key people to get trump to do this. if anyone will get blowback, it's tucker. not the ideas that vance represents. >> they are trump and trump is these ideas. angela and shannon, thank you so much for spending time with us. to be continued. a quick break for us. we will be right back. k break fs we will be right back. and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control.

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