true, i have four or five friends that will be free. russians. these are fantastic people that went to jail only because they believe in freedom and democracy. i will celebrate with their families later. and number three, tragically, i think there's going to be some people left home, left back in russia, one of them, mark fogel, who i also know personally, a day of sorrow for them. lots of joy for the americans and russians and i want to remember those who haven't been released, russians and americans alike. >> we will certainly keep them in mind. this does appear to be a joyous day for many americans. we will stay on the fast moving developing story on msnbc. that does it for us this morning. my thanks to katty kay, we will see you again tomorrow morning for "morning joe." ana cabrera picks up the coverage. let's get to the breaking news this morning, a prisoner swap between the u.s., russia,

and several other countries underway right now. we don't yet have the official list of the americans released as part of this deal. according to the senior administration official who we have been in contact with, we can expect them to be in u.s. custody soon. we do know that russia has been holding several high profile americans, and among them, "wall street journal" reporter, evan gershkovich, and former u.s. marine, paul whelan. join us now, white house correspondent gabe gutierrez. also with us, david rhodes, senior executive editor on national security for nbc news, and former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor. thank you all for joining us. gabe, what are we hearing from the white house this morning, as this prisoner swap is underway. >> hi there, ana, good morning. potentially a momentous day at the white house, and as you said, we are awaiting details of what this prisoner swap entails and we are awaiting word to hear that these prisoners are safely in u.s. custody. we cannot report any more than that at this point. but as you said, there are

several high profile prisoners that we have been watching in russia for quite some time. among them, evan gershkovich, and paul whelan who has been imprisoned in russia for years. this has been a top priority for the biden administration, ana, since president biden came into office. his administration has secured the release of dozens of wrongfully detained individuals around the world. just several months ago, president biden said he gave his word as a biden that he would do everything he can to get evan gershkovich back in u.s. custody. now, the administration, national security adviser jake sullivan has repeatedly said that these types of negotiations take a lot of time, not just months, but potentially years, and there had been some disappointment that paul whelan was not included in the prisoner swap that happened with brittney griner earlier, and now his family, and i'm sure families of others who have been wrongfully detained in russia are eagerly

awaiting news, but again, we're not hearing any confirmation just yet, ana, of who may be included in this prisoner swap, but if it does come to fruition, it would be seen as a major foreign policy win for the biden administration, ana. >> david, we are being very careful not to name specific names because we don't have everything confirmed on the record, but we do know that this prisoner swap is underway. what kind of negotiations would be going into a deal like this? >> very prolonged ones. these cases have been going on for years. the broader context sadly is that hostage taking is increasing worldwide. you have this incredible unprecedented moment on october 7th when hamas seized 230 captives. additional alarming is states carrying this out. you have the russian government grabbing americans citizens, britney griner, paul whelan has been there for years, evan gershkovich, venezuela took

eight americans hostage, so the long-term question, this is, you know, this deal will bring some folks home. there's some people in american prisoners who might come out and exchange. it's how do you deter this type of hostage taking. it is growing and growing at an alarming and i think very dangerous thing. >> it is. that is such a challenging question. we hear from the administration, this is a huge priority to bring americans home. they called them wrongfully detained, people like gershkovich and paul whelan. ambassador taylor, talking about the logistics to get to this moment, an ongoing effort to bring these americans home, in some cases for years, what do you make of the timing and what do you know about how this process might work? >> all the time, ana, it is something that president putin must have decided that he had to go forward and could get some of these people out.

he's looking for his own thugs, the people that are behind bars, in prison, in the united states, and in other places. as we said, allies are helping on this. there may be russians in other prisons and other allies that are, you know, in on this deal. this is something that putin is looking for, and he thought he could get it now, and that's on the timing. in terms of the process, we saw the acceleration of the gershkovich trial, they could move forward with the process. that allows them to make this swap. >> can you explain that, though, why conviction would make it more likely that they would make a swap? >> i can't explain that, no. for them, they say, look, we convicted him, he was guilty, and so we can trade him for somebody else who's been convicted and who's obviously guilty and in prison as well. it's that kind of a rationale

that must be going on in putin's mind. >> would you expect a one-to-one type of swap or what are you going to be looking at when it comes to the type of leverage that russia was using and what they may have wanted in response. >> well, again, putin has some of his -- of his thugs, people that he really wants out that have committed horrible crimes in germany, and other places. we don't know who all is involved in this, but he wants them back, and in order to do that, he's had to strike a deal, and apparently the americans struck a pretty tough deal, and got a lot out of this in order to take advantage of putin's desire to get some of his buddies back. >> david, how do you see it? gershkovich was just sentenced to 16 years in prison, and do you think that his conviction actually paved the way for a

potential release? >> it may have. with ambassador tiller, i'm not sure what the rationale is here. putin may think if his population, someone goes through court, brittney griner was convicted as well before she was released, it show shows that the rule of law was followed in russia. it's about signaling to these operatives that work for russia around the world that they will free you from jail. ambassador taylor mentioned an individual in germany, russian vadin, he carried out an assassination on german soil, killed a former chechnyaen militant. he was convicted of that, he's now held in a german prison, and we have talked about it since the brittney griner release, putin has been asking for him to personally be released. i think that shows how important his spy operation, his operatives, those people who carry out assassinations abroad, what vladimir putin will do to signal to them, you do this for me, i will protect you. i will bring you home. >> based on what you know of vladimir putin having worked in

that position as an ambassador to ukraine, ambassador, what do you think is his priority here when it comes to what he wants out of all of this? >> well, putin wants clearly just to establish himself as the most important person, the strongest person. a hero in russian society, and russian history, and so bringing these people home, bringing spies, thugs home, is part of that. it's of a piece with what he's trying to do in ukraine. i mean, he's invaded a sovereign neighbor. in order, again, to make himself an important leader in russian history. so this is about putin. >> david, you were held yourself as a hostage by the taliban years ago. what is the reintegration process like for somebody who has been held in some cases for years, if you're paul whelan, 2018 is when he was initially taken into custody there in

russia, to being held and then going through the process of being freed and trying to get back to life in general? >> it's joyous. i don't want to minimize it, but again, paul whelan has been held for years. when the brittney griner exchange was done, he was left behind. that was heartbreaking for them. he has been serving a false, you know, trumped up conviction on espionage charges. he's elated if he's one of those prisoners. we don't know. evan gershkovich, doing reporting and he was sentenced to 16 years in jail. there's a russian-american journalist, i do not know who was involved in this trade, who was also secretly convicted her name is alsu kemroshava, she was visiting her ailing mother, and she was arrested and convicted of spreading false information about the russian military or russian state. we don't know who's in this exchange, but it's extraordinary

for them to come home. >> i'll let you take a drink of water while we have a chance to think about this because i can only imagine what it's also like, not just for them individually but their family members. i spoke with paul whelan's brother. i remember when brittney griner was released in 2022, and he talked about the anguish he felt for his brother and his mental strength. the fact that his brother was singing the american national anthem every morning to feel connected to this country, and hanging on the moments of phone calls, and interactions he had with family members to help get him through this time, facing years more in prison. he at that time had been behind bars for years. what is it like for families too? >> in some ways it's harder. compared to these cases, the other thing that's gotten worse is the average amount of time people are being held is longer and longer. i was only held for seven months. it was harder for my family, my wife, my mother, my other

relatives. you're there. like you know you're being fed every day. you're clearly being used as some sort of tool, but your family sits around thinking every day, what more can they do to literally save your life. i have talked about this before. kidnapping, hostage taking is sort of a slow motion crime. it continues for months and years, and again, these families feel like if they can just get president biden on the phone, and just say the right thing, they can bring their loved one home, and that's not true. they don't have that power. i have my own biases from my own experience, i think of it as a cowardly crime and it's just alarming, again, that hamas took 230 hostages most of them israelis but many foreigners and you have the russian government and other governments doing the same thing on a smaller scale. >> can you weigh in on that, ambassador taylor, this suggestion that some are making, right, that by making a deal with these foreign adversaries,

in this case, russia, that it only incentivizes more of this type of behavior, hostage taking or detention, unjustifiably of american citizens? >> it's a problem. you're exactly right. there's a tension there. there's no doubt that this -- that putin can grab people knowing that he can trade for some of his spies and thugs, and that's a bad incentive. that said, it's important to get americans home. it's important to have gotten david home. it's important to get these folks that over time, we have actually brought back. so it's a hard tension. but i think it's important to bring them back. >> and, gabe, you have covered other hostage releases, people coming back from iran who were released there. talk to us about what we know of the logistics and reintegration process. what will they be going through once they get home? >> as david mentioned, it's a joyous process in many respects, especially for the families, but for those that have been held

for months or years, it can be a very difficult reintegration process. as you said, i covered five americans citizens that were held at iran or returned to the u.s. last year in september, i believe, when $6 billion in iranian assets were unfrozen by the u.s., at the time it was controversial, but those five american citizens when they returned to the u.s., they were taken to an army medical facility in san antonio, and that is where wrongfully detained individuals are usually taken in order to be debriefed, in order to go through mental health counseling, a very difficult process that is ahead for these prisoners that are brought back from overseas. again, the biden administration says it has made this a top priority. ana, i should point out that russian president vladimir putin has been signaling for some time that he is open to this type of prisoner swap, perhaps involving evan gershkovich. earlier this year, in that

controversial interview with tucker carlson, he was asked about this, and he did respond that it was up to other countries to be able to be willing to take part in this, and we have heard from national security adviser jake sullivan, and other officials in this administration that they have been working around the clock to bring americans such as evan gershkovich home to the u.s. again, we don't have confirmation at this point, who was involved in this prisoner swap, but we are awaiting details from the white house as soon as we can report that these americans are safely in u.s. custody, ana. >> and we all anticipate that joyously, as you mentioned, to be able to welcome them home to america. i'm just wondering, we're dealing with putin here, gabe. what is the white house approach as we know it in terms of negotiating with somebody like vladimir putin? >> reporter: certainly, ana, it is extremely difficult, and the white house officials are under no illusions about the motivations of vladimir putin.

it can be very difficult to ascertain at this point, but certainly since the invasion of ukraine, things have gotten all the more difficult, and earlier during a prisoner swap for brittney griner, you may remember that family members of paul whelan believer he might have been part of the prisoner swap. turns out he wasn't, and that is an indication of just how difficult it can be to negotiate with russia, to negotiate with vladimir putin. certainly very tense negotiations that very often are undertaken by a mediator of some sort. again, we don't know how many countries may be involved in this prisoner swap, but that usually is what has to happen, some sort of mediation in order to make this come together. very difficult negotiations of course that stretch into the years, ana. >> president biden saying in the state of the union earlier this year that they are working around the clock to bring people like paul whelan, to bring evan gershkovich home, especially those americans held around the

world, not just in russia, but those held unjustifiably is the word he used, unjustly detained around the world. this isn't just a deal between the u.s. and russia but believed to be other countries. how difficult do the negotiations become when it's not just two countries but a group of countries? >> you're exactly right. that really complicates it, however, it does emphasize the importance of having allies that we can deal with, whether it's the germans, whether it's allies in the middle east. this is an effort that we have undertaken, that the americans have undertaken, the administration has pushed through because it has good relations with these allies. it's more complicated. we are operating together, essentially against the russians. >> thank you very much, ambassador william taylor, gabe gutierrez, please stay with us. i want to bring in nbc news chief international

correspondent keir simmons joining us from paris. i know you have been reporting on this deal. what are we learning? >> reporter: this is a live situation, of course. it does look like it is highly complex, and a major prisoner exchange, maybe even the biggest prisoner exchange since the cold war, so i think we're going to see some dramatic visuals and headlines looking ahead. in terms of what really happened here, well, we do have some clues based on what, for example, president putin told me when i questioned him back in march in moscow after his election, and i asked him then about evan gershkovich, and he answered with an answer that made news, and he talked about, he claimed, and again it's pruitt, so you have to take everything that he says with a huge grain of salt, but in that answer, he claimed that he had agreed to the release of alexei navalny, and then alexei navalny died in a russian prison.

if that is true, ostensibly that would suggest that putin has been looking towards a negotiation like this for some time. now, we also know that putin has been wanting to see the release of a man called vadin, the russian hitman, assassin who's in a jail in germany. he maybe was on the cards to be swapped with navalny back before navalny died, according to pruitt's answer. putin hasn't directly said that's the man he wants but he has certainly suggested it, and called him a patriot, called this russian in a german jail for murder a patriot. so that gives you a clue about the kind of complexity. i heard the ambassador talking about germany. he's in a german jail. what you might be trying to figure out if you're the state department and the white house trying to inch toward an agreement, might be figuring out

how you could get the germans to agree to release him, and who else might need to be released and that gives you a picture of why this may look like, as we look ahead today, it may turn out to be a major and complex multistate swap of prisoners. >> when we look at the big picture here, we've got russia in its war against ukraine that is ongoing. the upcoming u.s. election is part of what's happening here on the domestic side, keir, what does this do in either of these venues, what does it do for u.s./russia relations at this pivotal time, domestically and internationally? >> i don't think it would shift u.s. russian relations in any really meaningful way at this stage. clearly, and we have to wait, clearly it could have an impact on u.s. politics. one of the reasons we have to wait, though, of course is because there are a number of

u.s. passport holders in russia, paul whelan, and evan gershkovich are two of them. are there others still in jail. in the case of paul whelan, when brittney griner was released, his family hoped that he would be freed too, and he wasn't. there would have been quite a lot of -- a huge sense that he would have to be in amongst this number, if that is what is happening today, so, you know, we think we have to kind of bide or time a little bit, and see what the implications are. in terms of your question with u.s./russia relations, one of the questions will be whether it was worth it, and there will be those that will question it, despite the joy of potentially what you'll see with families if their loved ones are released. a former russian security and intelligence officer who's in jail for murder. while paul whelan and evan

gershkovich are considered wrongfully detained by the u.s. so one thing we know with the russians and they have made this very clear, in any prisoner exchanges they do not tend to agree to more than one for one, if you like, they always want one for one. there will be those in the u.s. who will say it's not equal though. >> absolutely. keir simmons, continuing your great reporting. thank you very much for joining us. up next, more on the high wire negotiations at the state department that brought us to this prisoner swap. we're back in just 90 seconds. stay right there. ay right there . so i wear a lot of hats. my restaurants, my tattoo shop... and i also have a non-profit. but no matter what business i'm in... my network and my tech need to keep up. thank you, verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (woman) all with the security features we need. (aaron) because my businesses are my life. (kevin) man, the fish tacos are blowing up! (aaron) so whatever's next we're cooking with fire. let's make it happen!

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. we're back with more now on breaking news, a multinational prisoner swap involving the u.s. and russia underway right now. now, the list of americans involved has not yet been released. we do know that former u.s. marine, paul whelan and "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich have been held in russian custody. nbc's josh lederman joins us from london, also former ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul. still with us on set is nbc's david rowe. josh, what do we know about this hour about how this deal came about? were there clues this was in the works? >> there certainly were. we know the u.s. has been pushing for this for a long time. certainly since evan gershkovich was arrested last year, and in the case of paul whelan, since his arrest back in 2018,

secretary blinken had called it a top priority, but those kinds of u.s. efforts have been complicated by the fact that the u.s. russia relationship is in a bad place. the u.s. embassy in moscow operating with a skeletal staff after multiple rounds of tit for tat expulsions by u.s. and russian diplomats. there haven't been a lot of venues for negotiating something like this on an ongoing basis. the kremlin has maintained, particularly in these espionage cases that they don't like to even discuss or enact any kind of prisoner swaps until there's a guilty verdict. they essentially feel that that adds some public credibility to tear judicial process, and so the kremlin had been saying, really, for months that if there were talks taking place, it's better that they be done in private, anything that was said in public could undermine that, and that makes it ironic that some of the clues that we started to see in the last few

weeks, that something might be in the works actually came not from the u.s. side but the russian side. it started about two weeks ago when the top russian diplomat, sergey lavrov was in new york at the u.n. he disclosed to reporters that there were ongoing contacts between the u.s. and russian spy services about a potential swap. and then all of a sudden we saw the hasty conclusion of evan gershkovich's trial. he wasn't expected to have another hearing until august. suddenly that was moved up a month, and then all of a sudden a day later, we were in closing arguments and a verdict following shortly thereafter. and given the fact that russia has always maintained they don't do these swaps until after a guilty verdict, the fact that the court then moved so quickly was one indication that there might be more conversations taking place behind the scenes than even we knew about, and ironically, gave some hope to supporters of evan gershkovich and his family given the fact

that a guilty verdict was all but guaranteed in a case like this, and the question was after that verdict had taken place, there might be potential for a swap. again, certainly there have been increasing public comments from the russians in the last several weeks that suggest that some type of discussions behind the scenes related to an exchange of prisoners were underway between the u.s. and russia, ana. >> ambassador, what went through your mind, when you heard this news this morning? >> first, on a very personal level and if the reporting is true, three of my friends, people i know well are going to be released, and i was thinking of their families, and how difficult it has been, and this will be a great day of elation, and i hope it will be a great day of elation for evan's family and paul whelan's family if the reporting turns out to be true. second thought are the ones that are not being released. there are other russians in prison that are not going to get out today, mark fogel is arena i

know well. it doesn't look like he's going to get out. i'm thinking of their sadness, and third, i'm thinking of the incredibly successful diplomacy that if, again, by all accounts and i have been, you know, talking to these people from time to time for weeks, and sometimes years, this looks to be the most historic, complicated consequential trade between the russians and americans and our allies until the history of u.s. russian and u.s. soviet relations. i have dealt with the russians, i was part of the negotiations for the swap in 2010. this is an order of magnitude, more complex, and i just applaud those diplomats that were involved in this. if it's all true, this is a fantastic achievement for the biden administration. >> josh, the state department we know has been working to get whelan's release since he was detained in 2018. he went to russia for a friend's

wedding. he was then detained at his hotel room. gershkovich has been there now since march 2023 in russian custody. he's just a journalist continuing to do the courageous reporting that he has been doing for years. any insight into the timing beyond the fact that we just had obviously the court hearing and the conviction of gershkovich, but just the fact that there's been pressure for years on some kind of a deal to release americans. so why now? >> that is the million dollar question today, especially given the political situation, and the speculation, the assumption in a lot of corners, that president putin if he was going to do a deal might wait until after the u.s. presidential election, in case it might give him an opportunity to strike a deal with former president trump were he to be reelected. now, given the fact that by all signs this is involving multiple

countries, we've discussed the case of sought by the u.s., not in u.s. custody but has been in german custody, it may be that the contours of what was likely necessary to meet the russian criteria for releasing some of these detained americans had been clear for some time but that the intense and complex diplomacy, to be able to work out a multipronged trade involving multiple countries had not yet come to fruition. it kind of reminds me of one of those dramatic organ donation deals that they do when somebody might not be a match for one other person but they're able to sort of create a chain where one person donates to someone else, then someone else donates to someone else. clearly here you have nationals from multiple countries, and there needed to be an orchestrated choreography to be able to make all of those pins line up in the correct hole,

that everybody would be satisfied, that they were getting something in exchange for what they were giving up because it's been pointed out. there's going to be criticism in all of these corners for the release of people that are perceived, at least by some to be criminals convicted, to be behind bars correctly, and so, given the fact that there are such political considerations, it may have been that it simply took this really intensive diplomacy, coming to this point today, to be able to get to a point where these people could be released. >> ambassador, if vladimir putin is making these political calculations also watching u.s. elections coming up, we're just a couple of months now from november, a few months away, and if, you know, it is in his best interest, he might think, if donald trump is elected to wait, does this signal that the timing now signals that vladimir putin is feeling some kind of added pressure? >> it's a really hard, difficult

question. we don't have a lot of information about vladimir putin's thinking, and i followed him for most of my career, used to deal with him for five years, and it's hard to know. i want to tell you honestly, i was surprised. if you had asked me 48 hours ago would this deal happen now or would it happen after the election, i would have said after the election because if mr. trump wins that election, putin would want to reward him. there's no doubt that he prefers to work with -- vladimir putin prefers to work with donald trump. so that's something interesting, and i hope we'll figure out, was there something pushing this, and i wonder if it's the health of one of the prisoners that are being swapped. i think that's something we should look at closely because i've heard some of the russians, one in particular, was in very bad health, and they may not have been able to do this deal had they waited. number two, on the political thing, i think we need to be very clear that mr. trump said just a few weeks ago, if he were

elected president, that he could get out evan gershkovich, by the way, americans and russians pronounce his name differently, he would get evan out day one. today i predict we're going to hear a lot of people on the republican side say this is a terrible deal. we shouldn't be swapping criminals for innocent people. you can't have it both ways. you can't say you would be the one to be able to get him out and criticize it later. i think we should celebrate this, all americans. this is a tough deal. hard calls, most certainly it was. when i was involved in 2010. but i think we are better off as americans to get these people out, if the reporting is true, and we should celebrate this day as a victory for american diplomacy, not democrat or republican policy. >> and that was our josh lederman you were hearing at the end. thank you, josh, i know you have to run, to continue your reporting. david, if evan gershkovich comes home today, i just think about

how his life has been altered in so many ways, but the fact is he is a reporter, he is a journalist. he was working with such purpose and mission in russia. can he go back to being that same person, to being a journalist? to cover russia as he moves forward now? >> sadly, no. that's the tragedy here. i talked earlier about what a joyous thing it is, you know, if he's one of the ones being released how happy he's going to be in the short term. there is a challenge. you have to, somewhat based on my own experience, you have to sort of redesign your life, your professional life in particular. i had spent seven, eight years, covering afghanistan. i was a foreign correspondent, and i have stopped doing that. i stopped covering different conflicts. i have never been back to afghanistan since then. i'm an editor, happy to be at nbc. i have seen this with other hostages, a mention of iran,

jason held in iran for six years with folks there. there are now so many former hostages in this country that there's a small community of us. i literally had dinner two flights ago with an aide worker and journalist who were held also by the tag ban. -- taliban. there is a community waiting here for when he comes back, and the families have worked together closely. they have become much more effective in recent years at pressuring administrations to act on these cases and get people out. much more savvy, much more aggressive in terps of doing interviews, so again, the broad term is a tragedy. hamas, iran, venezuela, russia, there has to be -- you know, it's a triumphant day for the families, getting the hostages home, but it's not a triumphant day for american foreign policy. there has to be a deterrent to stop groups, and stop states

from doing this. >> ambassador, i just also think about how difficult it is for journalists to operate period in russia right now or some of these other countries where there is a crackdown on dissent, and you have leaders like putin who want to control the entire message the world is seeing, and control the message that their own people are hearing. how challenging is it for anybody to report inside russia right now and how much of a problem is that for the world to learn if that's the truth? >> it's a huge problem. tremendous problem. let's -- a couple of things. first of all, evan, i don't know evan personally. but i have been citing his work in my academic work for years. he was one of the best journalists we have inside russia. that's why he was arrested. and it was a deterrent. putin put everybody on notice. you want to do this kind of worse, this sensitive work or reporting difficult things, these are the risks you have,

and it works. lots of russian journalists as well as americans now working from abroad, they're working in lithuania and germany, and that's just, you cannot do the kind of reporting that evan was doing from those places. secondly, just to david's point, it will last, you know. lots of people will not be in this business anymore, and putin has effectively closed down, arrested and at times killed some of russia's best journalists, and that means that we on the outside just don't understand russia as well. and that's good for putin, and that's bad for the united states and the rest of the free world. >> secretary blinken said in march, evan did nothing wrong. journalism is not a crime, and yet putin has found ways to really hinder that work of journalists to be able to get his narrative out there.

ambassador mcfaul, thank you, david, you're sticking with me some more as we continue to follow the breaking news this morning. what we're learning from the white house, don't go anywhere. e ♪ ♪ not every decision you make will be as good as getting a volkswagen at the savvy vw summer sales event. 2024 volkswagen models cost less to maintain than honda. get 1.9% apr financing or a $2500 customer bonus on a new 2024 tiguan.

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. we are back with our breaking coverage, a multinational prisoner exchange involving the u.s. and russia and currently underway. the names of the prisoners involved are not yet public, but russia has been holding several high profile americans behind bars for months now, and in some cases, years, including "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich, and former u.s. marine, paul whelan. let's go back to the white house with nbnbc allie raffa, what mo are we learning? >> reporter: because of the sensitive nature around these ongoing developments, we're not able to confirm who is involved in this prisoner swap that a

senior administration official says is including multiple countries. but we are able to talk about who we know has been in russian custody in recent years. of course you mentioned former marine paul whelan who we know was imprisoned since december of 2018 on espionage charges. that name familiar to many after notably he was not involved in the prisoner exchange in 2022 that allowed for wnba star brittney griner to be freed from russian custody. another name that has gotten a lot of headlines in recent years, of course, "wall street journal" reporter evan gershkovich in prison for 70 weeks now. just earlier this month, he was sentenced on those espionage charges to 16 years in russia prison, and president biden at the time when that news was announced said in a statement in part quote, he committed no crime, rather he was targeted by the russian government because he is a journalist and an american. we are pushing hard for evan's release, and will continue to do

so, and like the president said, we have known for many months now that these back channel communications between the united states and russia were ongoing. that is something that national security adviser jake sullivan has said many times, when asked for updates on these prisoner talks, especially in the wake of when we saw russian president vladimir putin say publicly that he would be willing to engage in one of these prisoner swaps. but of course so much is still unclear at this moment, including whether this prisoner swap will be successful, whether it will all come to fruition. still awaiting confirmation on that. so the president, of course, administration officials and most importantly the families of these people involved no doubt, waiting with baited breath for this good news, ana. >> april, you have covered these types of prisoner swaps in the past. as we just mentioned, the last major release of an american unjustly detained in russia was wnba star brittney griner. what do you know goes into negotiations and some of the

decisions for these exchanges. >> first of all, this has been going on for a long time. it was going on even before the brittney griner release, but because the release was so high profile, that made a lot of news. in this moment, i have been talking to people here in the united states. national security officials, congressional leaders in the senate and in the house. they are still waiting for confirmation. what they do know, and the last person i talked to i just got off a zoom call with him, senator chuck schumer, five minutes before we went on air, he said this is a beautiful thing. he said one of the persons is a journalist, so he did confirm that, and he also said that this has been an effort, a bipartisan effort that has been something that's been going on for a while. he said both parties have coalesced on this and worked together on this. and they are very hopeful. they are still waiting for

confirmation on this, but what he's got is that one of those is a journalist, and he did say to me that it is indeed various countries that are involved, the united states, and another source also said the united states will be releasing several russian prisoners, and the countries of germany, poland, and slovenia, i understand, are involved. >> and so, again, we aren't able to confirm that information just yet. and we are being very careful about reporting out what we know at this time. april, as we await more details, just talk about the moment this is for president biden giving everything else that's been happening here at home, and as he is looking at the final months of his presidency? >> as president biden wants to save the democracy by handing over the torch to the next generation, kamala harris, this

is a big win for him. president biden personally and for the biden/harris administration. people have been very much pushing for the release of these russian hostages, especially since the brittney griner release. they were like, these people have been in longer, et cetera, and now potentially this is happening. we are waiting for confirmation on everything. senatorial leaders as well as those on the hill, national security, everyone is waiting for full confirmation on this, but that's what's in play. this is a big deal. the president is going to leave in the next six months with a huge win. the economy is growing. he's releasing hostages that the american people have been so concerned about, and he's now passed the torch. so he has got a very big win this this moment, when we are waiting for great news. >> thank you so much, april ryan, as always, pr offering your insights and reporting. allie raffa, please report back

as you learn more. and we will have more on the breaking news of this prisoner swap between the u.s. and russia in just a moment. stay right there. you're watching "ana cabrera reports." reports. it's faster, bro! it's faster, bro! it's faster, bro! it's mom to you. astepro starts working in 30 minutes. astepro and go! ♪ astepro starts working in 30 minutes. (man) oh, come on. ♪ (woman) ugh. (woman) phone! (man) ahhh! (woman) oh! (man) oh no. (woman) dang it! (vo) you break it. we take it. trade in any phone, in any condition. guaranteed at verizon. and get the new galaxy s24 on us. (man) oh yeah. (vo) only on verizon. the future is not just going to happen. you have to make it. and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future

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of odor protection. secret outlast. official deodorant of team usa. i told you it lasted a long time. breaking news this morning, a prisoner swap between the u.s., russia and other countries underway. the names of the prisoners still have not been released as we have been reporting, most high profile americans held in russia are "wall street journal" reporter, evan gershkovich and former marine paul whelan. joining us matt bod ner in london, and state department senior adviser, and national security adviser editor, david rhodes. so matt, take us through what we know at this moment? >> thank you, ana. we don't know very much at this moment. really all we know is that a prisoner swap involving the united states, russia and unspecified other countries is

underway. it's taking place right now. we do not know where specifically it's taking place, who specifically is involved in the trade, though, as you mentioned, we're aware of who the major high profile prisoners on both sides of this are but particularly in russian custody, we know there's the "wall street journal" reporter, evan gershkovich, paul whelan, another american, and several others as well. on the russian side, there's a number of mid tier cyber criminals and convicted spies who the russians have been trying to get back, and there's a number of other individuals that we know the kremlin is very interested in that are currently in the custody of a number of american allies, and so kind of the picture that we're seeing is a interested in, that are currently in the custody of a number of american allies. so, kind of the picture that we're seeing is a very large multifaceted, multilateral prisoner swap, which is historically a very rare thing. it certainly hasn't happened since the cold war. so, a lot of movement going on, but we don't have a very clear picture into it at this time.

>> you know evan gershkovich personally. what can you tell us about who he is? >> there has been a lot of really great stuff said about him here today. adding to that, i mean, evan gershkovich is one of the best reporters i think who ever went to russia for the american media. he, you know, he grew up with russian in the household, he's very effective on the language, on the culture. and just when i saw him in moscow, i saw a reporter who i think was particularly effective at integrating with the local culture and local community to a level that many couldn't, just because of his ability to navigate the culture because of his upbringing in the u.s. with the russian family. but evan, i think, this is true -- this is true of every american journalist, every western journalist i think who has ever gone to russia to report, it is an investment of your time and your life. you do it because you love the country, you're interested in telling the stories there and want to promote understanding amongst your audience in this very complex and interesting and difficult to navigate country.

and evan gershkovich, i think, is really one of the best examples of a reporter going to do this and i think that speaks to his character more than anything. >> we hope he's among those released today. matt, we'll be watching very closely. thank you so much. now how critical are the next few hours? what should we expect? >> well, this is where we actually find out if the american citizens are coming back safe, and -- thinks this is worth the exchange. here's what i mean by that. when brittney griner was released, there was certainly adulation and support for her coming back, she was a famous celebrity, but there was a lot of backlash about the idea of releasing a convicted arms dealer and what that arms dealer might do to citizens around the world in exchange for as some people said someone who broke the law. now, here is the challenge. states like russia, china, iran, north korea, when they arrest people, they make charges. they put them through a trial process.

so, there is paperwork on their side saying this person violated our law. that's why this negotiation has to take place. it is not a clear cut this is right, this is wrong, these are two different perspectives, one side is entirely fabricated, but that's what negotiators and diplomats have to deal with. and so evan gershkovich went through an entire trial process before there could be formal negotiations. i hope that the american public welcomes the fact that we have a government that will, indeed, protect all of its citizens and fight for them to come home. >> you're right. it is not an equal playing field here. in a deal like this the white house needs to bring something to the table and release some prisoners that they would like to see stay behind bars. what kind of risks does the u.s. government then have to take to make this deal? >> that's what the back and forth trade-offs start to come into conversation. the example of the brittney griner exchange, he had served

the majority of his sentence already, so the united states was not going to keep him for much longer. the details of whether it is a spy or a assassin, who doesn't putin want back badly enough at this point that he's willing to now give back to the the u.s. two high profile hostages? the families want the names of their people to be known by the public. they want the public pressure. that helps guarantee the safety of the hostages. the idea that somebody held in custody dies overseas is a political disaster for, you know, russia in this sgm. that's some of the calculus of the back and forth but there is a sense that this is a tactic that putin and other states are using against the united states because they understand we actually value the freedom of our citizens and protecting individual liberty. so they pick opportune moments to take people who have familiarity with their country, maybe dual citizenship or dual

passport so they can find a reason to get the person and then use them for political and capital gain. as of last week there are still 46 americans still held by foreign countries under hostage circumstances. >> david, you've talked about this, about how u.s. adversaries could look at situations like this and be incentivized to take americans wrongfully like they have done in this case with some of these americans held in russia, so, i guess what can be done? >> i think there is financial penalties, a real push to sort of seize iranian assets that are held in foreign countries. and take them away as a way to punish these regimes to show they're not -- this doesn't work effectively, that you'll pay a price eventually. if you -- what has happened, it is all administrations, it is a bipartisan problem. the majority of people being kidnapped were being grabbed by militants or criminal groups under obama, late in obama and through trump and the biden

administration you have this shift to states that we have talked about. and so it is a huge challenge in terms of how you get these groups to stop doing this. but it is critical that there can be bipartisan efforts, i think, to deter these states and leaders who do this. the challenge in this deal, there are american citizens, our colleague ken dilanian reported this earlier, russian citizens in the u.s. prison system. some of them convicted of cyberattacks in the u.s., some obtaining american technology, they were going to be used by russia in the war effort against ukraine. they could be part of this deal as well. there will be criticism whichever president makes this deal, but there needs to be a clear long-term strategy. >> do you see a good pushback, argument for those who may be critical of the u.s. government, making a deal? >> well, i mean, there should be a consistent sense of patriotism, that idea that your passport as an american gets you

some protection and support from your country and your government when you go overseas. that's a promise that our government makes to us and that promise has born out to be true. we should welcome that. the other is that the united states, with its skills and leverage on the world stage has the opportunity to really put the screws to some of these state actors. russia has been struggling under sanctions, under being segregated and separated out from the global community. that pariah status is a big part of this dynamic and some of these countries do also want to be legitimate on the world stage and in order to do that, you can't be taking hostages of the leaders of the world. >> thank you so much. i want to take everybody live right now to some pictures in ankara, turkey, where we see an airplane there, we do have confirmation from the turkish government now that this prisoner exchange is happening. we can't confirm that's who's on

the plane, but the turkish government also confirming the news of a prisoner exchange involving russia, the u.s. and other countries. we'll continue to stay on this story throughout the next hours here on msnbc. that's going to do it for me this hour. i'll be back at 3:00 p.m. eastern and for katy tur today and jose diaz-balart picks up our breaking news coverage right after this. lart picks up our breaking news coverage right after this

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