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we've got another big show for you tomorrow morning. north carolina governor roy cooper will join us to talk about vice president harris's search for a running mate. ali velshi continues our coverage now. take it away. >> is a former lieutenant governor, you've got to ask him, poor guy, roy cooper, can't run for vice president, can't believe his state because his lieutenant governor is kind of a kooky guy. >> can you imagine? >> the guy changes laws when he leaves. >> he says, he went to japan once and he had to come back early because the lieutenant governor was calling press conferences. >> weird enough. by the way, i was not that kind of lieutenant governor. >> you are not that kind of god. the three of us spent a lot of time on tv for a bunch of people that work on the weekend. i try, it is the one weekend i

tried to say i had to cancel my weekend appearances for no apparent reason, nobody bought that. >> they were like, come to work. >> no betting going on here, we will do our show. you guys do it great rest of the day. "velshi" starts now. w. good morning. it is saturday, august 3rd. there are 93 days until election day. it has been just 30 days since the day took over at the top of the ticket. yesterday, that the mc announced that harris has received enough votes from the democratic delegate to secure the democratic nomination. we should note that she will not be the official nominee until the dnc makes that announcement at the end of the virtual roll call. he began thursday. it is set to include monday at 6:00 p.m. eastern. president biden took to x to gradually his vice president. quote, one of the best decisions i made was picking

vice president kamala harris as my president. -- vice president. now that she is the democratic nominee, i could not be prouder. we continue to wait harris's decision on who she will pick for a running mate. we know the team has met with six potential candidates and we know a decision is expected before a tuesday rally in philadelphia, where they are anticipated to appear on stage together. we also know that in a very short time, harris has built significant enthusiasm and momentum. she brought in $310 million in july. her campaign entered august with $377 million in cash, which it says is a record for a presidential campaign at this age in the election cycle. trump's campaign raised $139 million in that time, less than half of what here is good, and has $327 million on hand, also less then the harris campaign. around 3:00 p.m. yesterday, in promoting a rally he will be host later today in atlanta, trump sent a fund-

raising email that read quote, 24 hours until we unleash hell. at this time tomorrow, crooked kamala 's worst nightmare come true. since the rnc, remember, trump and the campaign call for unity . trump has grown increasingly belligerent. here is a look at what the pitch to the nation has been like. >> i want to be nice. they all say, i think he has changed. i think he has changed since two weeks ago, something affected him. no, i haven't changed, maybe i have gotten worse. >> i am being indicted for you. did you like the mug shot? two weeks ago i was talking to biden, i did not even know her name, nobody did. i did not know she was black until a number of years ago when she happened to turn black. now she wants to be known as black. she was indian all the way, all of a sudden she made a turn and she became a black person that has done so much work on the black population of this country. coming from the border are

millions and millions of people that happen to be taking black jobs. you have the best-- >> what exactly a black job, sir? >> a black job is anybody that has a job. like so much for unity. a racist bit of this, racist bit of that, sprinkled to be rich or agitated over and over and stops across the country. it is nothing but red meat for his core base. it is meant to deflect from the fact that he has no real message for the country other than hate. it is also meant to obscure and deflect from the actual lands of trump and the right half he ever take white house. plans that are contained in this, the 922 page playbook called project 2025. the policies in here are so unpopular, that trump and his cohorts continue to try to distance themselves from it in public. that is not easy work. as we have discussed for months here on "velshi" this was written

for trial, including allies from his last administration. none other than trump's new running mate, j.d. vance, wrote the forward for the upcoming book from kevin roberts, the president of the heritage foundation who spearheaded and oversaw project 2025. this week's announcement that project 2025 was winding down its policy work, although a source tells nbc news that project 2025 itself is not shutting down. make no mistake about it, this is not a change of plans. right there in that 922 page manifesto, they aren't going away if we takes the white house. this is actually our future. joining me now is a special correspondent for "vanity fair." nbc poll and political analyst as well and chairman of the republican national committee, you know him as one of the cost of the program that proceeds this one, "the weekend," ayres before "velshi" right here on msnbc. michael, you noted on x that

trump quote, crapped on the bed at nabj, but his remarks were made for you and me or his audience in front of him. it was meant for his m.a.g.a. universe, although some people wonder, what was that message, and why? >> a lot of it is the way donald trump is looking at prosecuting this election. this is one of the struggles between his current campaign team, which is a very sophisticated team of players. they have done a lot to get this campaign much better organized and focused on moving toward the goal of winning the election. then, donald trump has a different idea when he wants to put his daughter-in- law in charge of the rnc and they want to fire people, but he is still trying to pull it in the direction he wants to. a good example of that was what we saw on stage, where that was not the narrative his campaign team wanted to put out there, but it was the narrative donald

trump wants to prosecute, because in his mind's eye, he needs more of his face to turn out. the idea of expanding the universe of people voting for him, that is too tiresome. that is way too involved. it is easier to get the people who love me and want to be with me, and in my presence, to come out and vote. that is going to be a real challenge in some of these key battleground dates. that is why the polling folks it is so important to understand and not get tripped up on. even when it is good for harris right now, you can't get tripped up on what those numbers say, because it is not a reflection of who actually will vote. it is not a reflection of what the ground game is in any given state, in any given county, in any given district. that is where the democrats, as we talked about in our last hour with mr. kinnaman, who is running that operation, have put the people in place, the trump campaign have not.

when he is on that stage, saying what he is saying, to your point, ali he's not talking about the expansion of the number of people that will turn out, he's trying to make sure his hard-core base turns out in a larger number. >> that is where the enthusiasm part comes into this larger conversation. if people are enthused, that helps them to vote any groups of people are enthused-- molly, this is interesting, donald trump's attacks on kamala harris are not leading for a couple of reasons. some of them are just bad, not that effective, and some of them are entirely turned around by this enthusiastic base of the porters of kamala harris, turned into memes and things that cause people to get enthusiastic, that is the answer. i think michael's point is right. polls are always tied with presidential races, or have been for many cycles now. the issue will come down to who wants to support who, who signs up to volunteer, who donates, and who shows up to vote. >> i also think one of the

things about here is, which we have seen it before with obama, is there is joy. he is trying to turn that joy against her. those videos of her laughing, that was one attack, or her cooking. and i think people just like that. it has been a long, long eight years, 10 years since trump came into the fray, and i think people are refreshed by a normal person cooking a turkey. so, i do think that there is a kind of joy in this campaign that we have not seen in a while in american politics. i also think that people are galvanized for her. trump has only the same material , he keeps recycling the same attacks. a lot of the attacks he is using on her, he used on hillary clinton. and i think that you can't just this, think of something new. >> michael, something you were

talking about moments ago, eric holder, the former attorney general has arrived at the naval observatory, the vice president's official residence. he obviously will have his vetting paper and they will have an important conversation. we will keep an eye on that and see it in a morning moment. you are familiar with this document, head of the republican party. they have been putting this out since reagan's days. a version of this the idea that a conservative think tank like the heritage foundation would lay some type of framework and it is usually pretty successful with conservative administrations. there is the car that was carrying eric holder at the naval observatory. what is different about this project 2025? what is different about this version of the mandy leadership ? >> what do you notice that is absent in those 900 pages? any real formulation of policy that can be translated into congressional action on the environment, or the healthcare, on the economy, infrastructure,

on medicare, medicaid, social security beyond okay, we need to get rid of the department of commerce. that is the economic plan. we need to get rid of the department of education, that is the education plan. we need to get rid of-- we need to rename health and human services to department of life, right mark? you can see that transfiguration of these agencies, if they are not eliminated, into something to meet with the now the new mindset of this gop, the maga mindset. when you go back and you look at what was written and what was said in the reagan era, the bush era, both bushes, for example, there was this focus on the downsizing of government , and so forth, but it was connected to other things that mattered, like 1000 points of light, no child left behind. there were articulable policies that would also be a big part

of that administration's work. that is not what is here. what is here is the wholesale grabbing of the federal government, giving it solely to the executive, carving out congress altogether. does not really matter, because congress is nothing but a nod and a wink anyway, right? this is where the power center will be. the courts have effectively done that now. i don't know if it was planned or this is bad karma the way this has aligned. when the court said to donald trump effectively, all you need to do is claim it as an official act, you can do whatever you want to do, boo, we are good. that, the imprimatur of our in the hands of this administration, which makes of this document, those 900 pages you have, that much more deadly . because, donald trump cannot declare pretty much anything he wants in this term as an

official act and there is no way you can undo it, no way you can challenge it in court. it is what it will be. those 900 pages mean more now than they did before the supreme court made its ruling. >> the other issue, molly, and i find in circles people are talking about is much more. maybe because i open this up every time i can and michael talk about it on his show and they have the necessary interviews. they more they know about this, the more they want to run away from it. it has got all the stuff. if you vote for republican in november, you can't be mad next august when you say, i can't believe they did that. it is all written down here. >> and i think, look, it reads like stereo instructions for a reason. it is not written to be readable. it is written because this is their plan. i would say, they gleefully say, their plan is to dismantle the administrative state, which means all the things the fdr did, the department of

education, having a federal government that takes care of people, goes away. that is their policy. one of the reasons they don't talk about policy so much, because they know it is not very popular. people do not want to lose social security. they do not want to lose their entitlements. ultimately, that may not be exactly what the plan is, but it is moving in that direction. >> thanks to both of you. we appreciate it. we love that you got us started off this morning, thank you. if that conversation made you want even more michael steele, saturday, september 7th, you can attend msnbc live democracy 2024. our premier fan even live in brooklyn new york, the first of its kind in african person, it is with some of your favorite persons. scan the qr code on your screen to buy your tickets today.

i will see you there. still ahead, the hard work and read a policy it took to pull off thursday's historical prisoner swap. the white house calling the feet, quote, vintage joe biden. leadership hiring freezes at the cia and eliminating the department of homeland security entirely. those are some of the planes that project 2025 has for america's defense and intelligence agencies. we will take you inside project 2025. later, post-racial world, the author of "the last white man" jointly for the velshi banned book club . . turn shipping to your advantage. with low cost ground shipping from the united states postal service. ♪♪ everywhere but the seat. the seat is leather. from the united states postal service. alan, we get it. you love your bike. we do, too. that's why we're america's number-one motorcycle insurer. but do you have to wedge it into everything? what? i don't do that. this reminds me of my bike.

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thursday night, 11:38 p.m. on the tarmac at joint base andrews in maryland, three americans wrongfully imprisoned in russia touched down on home soil thanks to a seven country prisoner swap that took three years to negotiate. evan gershkovich, paul whelan,

and alsu kurmasheva were greeted by president biden and vice president paris . vladimir core mother, a russian opposition leader and u.s. permanent resident was also released. he let it in germany. with a total of 30 prisoners involved, it was the largest and cold war, historic, to say the least. paul whelan, a 54-year- old marine veteran had been in russian custody for five years following his arrest at a moscow hotel where he was attending a friend's wedding. he was serving a 16 year sentence in a high subpoena colony convicted of espionage after accepting a flash drive from a russian acquaintance. the journalist, alsu kurmasheva, is a 47-year-old mother of two and a dual u.s. russian citizen. in june of last year, she was working for radio free europe in prague when she flew to russia to visit her elderly mother. she was detained at the airport on her way home and subsequently sentenced to 6 1/2 years in a russian penal colony . she was accused of spreading false information about the russian army.

she spent nine months in a russian prison. at 32-year-old journalist evan gershkovich, son of russian immigrants who fit let the soviet union in 1979, gershkovich moved to russia in 2017 to write for "the moscow times," before joining the "wall street journal". nearly a year and a half ago, he was arrested while interviewing factory workers in western russia. last month, he was convicted of espionage and what was widely cut entered a sham trial and sentence to 16 years in prison. even after 15 1/2 days in captivity, 15 1/2 months, sorry, in captivity, gershkovich was docketed as a reporter and informed that he had to fill out before leaving russian prison, he asked if vladimir putin would sit in for an interview. his colleagues at the "wall street journal" made sure his name never left the new cycle. they press hard to bring him home, but they had help from a secret weapon, evan's mother. here she is leaping into evan's arms on the tarmac thursday

night. ella played an extraordinary role in getting her son home, even cornering german chancellor rape 25 olaf scholz at a gala last september . she turned for help because of the seven countries involved in this deal, she knew that the linchpin sat in jail in berlin. the prisoner who vladimir putin wanted me convicted murderer and hitman was serving a life sentence in germany for murdering a dissident in broad daylight in a public park in berlin. german authorities say, krasikov was sent to germany with a fake passport and orders to kill straight from the kremlin. they accused him of committing state-sponsored murder. releasing krasikov, a convicted murderer, was for the really difficult for olaf scholz, but he was persuaded by gershkovich's mother and president joe biden . according to the washington post, during a meeting february 9th, scholz told biden quote, for you, i

will do this. >> anyone that questions if allies matter, they do, they matter. today is a powerful example of why it is vital to have friends in this world. friends you can trust, work with, and depend upon. >> that is the power of fellowship and good diplomacy. releasing krasikov a lot for the rest of it. russia would release five german nationals and seven russian citizens being held as political prisoners along with paul whelan, evan gershkovich, alsu kurmasheva, in exchange for krasikov and several other russian intelligence officers and hackers. the agreement was agreed-upon in principle july 17th, just an hour before president biden announced he would not be seeking a second term, isolated with covid-19 in his home at rehobeth beach, delaware. biden was on the phone when the slovenian president to secure their side of the deal. a moment of vindication for a

president who has always insisted on the importance of our foreign allies and protecting democracy around the world. which brings me to our friend vladimir core's martha, was in russian prison for doing just that. now a pulitzer prize-winning columnist for articles he pended from a russian cell, was arrested in 2022 for speaking out against putin's war in ukraine. even before that, russian authorities poisoned him twice, but he survived. he is now receiving medical care in germany. i spoke with him on this show one day before he was arrested, and even then, he knew the risk he was taking. >> are you worried about speaking out against the russian government and against this war in russia? >> we all know the price, we all know the cost, but we also know that there are millions of people in russia doing everything, in terms of domestic oppression and in terms of xl aggression. there are many people in russia who want our country to be a normal, normal democratic european states.

i think a reminder to all of us that serve a public face for opposition would all just leave the country. i do not want to condemn anybody's decision, but if you ask me, i am a russia politician, russia is my country, my home, and this is where i have to be. >> i am worried for you, my friend. you have been a source of my information for many years. i will worry on your behalf. >> in the days leading up to his arrest, the day after that interview, he had dinner with another longtime friend of our show and our next guest, bill browder, who begged him not to return to russia. he tried to appeal to a sense of duty, arguing, if he was thrown in prison, the people of russia would be deprived of his pro-democracy message. he told browder quote, bill, sometimes, symbols are more important. today, he is more than a symbol, he is finally a free man. people over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting...

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joining me for now for more on this is bill browder, the ceo of capital management, the head of the mccleskey justice campaign and author of "freezing order" a true story of russian money laundering and surviving vladimir putin's wrath. bill, good to see you again this week. i am glad we have at this occasion to talk. normally, we just talk about bad things. upon his arrival in germany, vladimir gave an interview with sky news. i want to play a part of it that is relevant to the conversation i want to have with you. let's listen in. >> however much of these words have been soiled by the kremlin propaganda, i mean that sincerely. i love my country. i think russia deserves so much better than being run by a corrupt, murderous authoritarian kgb lady dictatorship. i think russia deserves to be a

norton-- modern democratic european country. absolutely no doubt as a historian that they will come and as a politician, i'm going to do everything i can, everything in my power to try to bring that day a little bit closer. >> for a moment i want to talk to you about the goals for russia. the idea that that has always been his goal for russia to make russia a better, fairer place. let's talk about him. he has lost a lot of weight, but he is the same old vladimir. >> yeah, well, i was really happy to see him come out swinging so hard at the press conference and in the interviews. he is the same vladimir. he has literally lost like a third of his body weight, but he is the same person inside. hopefully, over the next weeks and months, you can recover from this unbelievable ordeal. solitary confinement for one year, sitting in a four by six cells

24 hours a day, it is impossible to imagine the rest was under. i am just so happy to see him out, alive, and the same vladimir that we all know and love. >> we have spent a lot of time in the past few years talking about russia, expansionism, ukraine, what it might, how biden and his health, but vladimir has had a slightly different focus, when you have also had, making russia a better place for russians. there are a lot of many, most russians are good, decent people who like the rest of us would like to live their lives in fairness and prosperity. >> indeed. if you look at what is happening to russia, vladimir putin, and a group of kgb criminals have basically occupied the country. in doing so, they have since 500,000 young russian men to their death in battle. they have created the similar

numbers of ukrainian death. they have found kindergartners, and so on. i don't think that putin is doing this in the name of russians. he is doing this in the name of keeping himself empowered. if at any moment he is not in power, he ends up losing all the money he has stolen, goes to jail, and probably dies. he has basically taken russia and completely ruined the country. one would hope that there will be a moment when the putin regime collapses, when this fascist, totalitarian dictatorship crashes and is destroyed, and from the ashes of that, one would hope that someone like vladimir kara-murza, who believes in peace, democracy, and free speech, would be one of the people leading russia in a world where russia would pay its reparations to ukraine, would make use with the west, and would provide some type of normal life for their citizens

going forward. >> let me ask about the role of fellowship, and the role of the german chancellor for instance played, and vice president harris was involved, and president biden, olaf scholz, to release this assassin, that is not an easy thing to do in germany. they are not getting the better end of that trade. donald trump endured a particularly the tough relationship with the german chancellor. in this type of date craft, getting seven nations involved in a prisoner swap like this, you've always got to give something up to get something out of it, that is not the way the trump administration promises to work or didn't work. donald trump continues to advertise that he could have got evan gershkovich out in a day, i don't know. >> it is all very interesting who can get who out. paul whelan was incarcerated during the trump administration , and he was not able to get him out. i don't know. i don't know if

this has anything specifically to do with it, this is not a personality based thing. this is based on cold, hard interest. putin wanted vladimir kara-murza , the assassin, and biden wanted evan gershkovich, and paul wheeling, and then, the germans wanted to make sure that this was not just a sort of grubby hostage exchange that something greater and bigger was involved. so, the germans added all the russian opposition to the deal, and the germans added their own citizens to the deal. and biden called of the slovenian's, the norwegian, and made it all happen. it is a piece of diplomatic genius that this deal was done, and president biden and his team, and i should mention, ambassador roger carson, who is the presidential special envoy for hostage affairs, he was running around the world to two years. i was running a meeting with

him on a regular basis, trying to advocate for vladimir. he was the one threading the needle in this very complicated exchange. and it is a glorious moment that 16 lives were saved. i should point out, we see pictures of vladimir there, you see pictures of before and after. would not survive another year in jail he would be dead. and there is no question that his life has been saved. there has been some question in germany, is it okay to free a murderer? that is a hard question, but vladimir is alive today he would not be alive if he was not released. there was a bunch of others. i was reading this morning about a russian pianist who opposed the war who just died in pretrial detention at the age of 39. people are dying in russian prisons who opposed the war. it is a complicated, awful thing to let out a murderer. for while, i was not porting it

. at the end of the day, saving lives is what this was all about. vladimir saved, and a number of others are saved. and we have to celebrate the fact that these heroes, and vladimir, as we have seen, is a guy who could rise and bring a russia up on the ashes afterwards and have a normal country that interacts with the west normally with democracy and free speech, and that is what we have to hope for in the future. >> bill, thanks as always. good to see you this week. ceo of capital management and head of the justice campaign. after the break, democracy versus authoritarianism. a high court in the pocket of a strong president. protest and violence breaking out in the streets with an opposition leader in hiding, fearful for her life. a lot more, they with us. us. f. with t-mobile's reliable 5g business internet. employees get the information they need instantly.

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where a contested election is thrown the country into chaos. there have been days of protests across the country following last week's presidential election, an election claimed by president nicolas maduro, who has been in power since 2013, but maduro will not release the vote tallies to prove his victory in the opposition party says, it is because he did not actually win. back in january, venezuela's highest court, which is controlled by maduro loyalist , banned the opposition party leader from appearing on the ballot. ultimately, edmundo gonzalez or tia step in as the surrogate opposition leader in her place, or a surrogate opposition candidate in her place. after the election, authorities loyalty to maduro declared he was a winner with 51% of the vote. as it goes with these authoritarian regimes, the government did not disclose

precinct by precinct vote counts, which would verify results. the opposition knew this would happen, so they can with receipts. the opposition party published more than 80% of actual electoral tally sheets, which they said they received directly from polling stations throughout venezuela on election day. those tally sheets show that gonzalez 166% of the vote and maduro received about 31%. the opposition release the results on a website, and nbc access that website wednesday. have, and discredited netanyahu four's election results and are officially recognizes gonzalez as the winter. u.s. secretary of state antony blinken saying quote, given the overwhelming evidence, it is clear to the united states, and most importantly to the venezuelan people that gonzalez won the most votes. now is time for the venezuelan party to begin a respectful, youthful transition in accordance with law. maduro responded thing for,

the united states to keep it no thought of venezuela. officials from 16 countries, including the united states, release a joint statement condemning venezuela's handling of the election. meanwhile, the opposition party leader who was banned from even running, has had her office is rated, and said, she is currently in fear of her life as maduro has called for her arrest. she was seen as the most consequential-- this was seen as the most consequential election in venezuela in years. the country's economy and democracy have been crumbling under netanyahu four's rule. the opposition was coalesced around the candidate who gave netanyahu for a real run for his money. watch space. still ahead, cutting checks and balances and consolidating power in the office of the president, sounding similar to the authoritarian rule we were just talking about. we will take you inside project 2025's radical plan for american defense and security. .

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for the past few weeks, we have been thinking inside project 2025, uncovering its radical proposals for restructuring our federal government. leveraging goal is to vastly expand presidential powers and eliminate obstacles to presidential authority. today, we are focusing on its plans for america's national defense and security. as more americans become aware of project 2025, the 922 page

playbook for the next american presidency, trump has conveniently started to distance himself from the authoritarian blueprint, yet, most of the chapters are authored by people from his last administration, who would likely find themselves in a second trump administration. project 2025 dedicates six entire chapters to the common defense, filled with chilling proposals. these chapters include the department of defense, the intelligence community. the goal is to purge these agencies of any obstacles to trump's authority and make the right-wing's cultural wars a permanent fixture of government, including anti- trans and antigovernment initiatives. project 2025 is devoted to the department of defense and is authored by a former defense official. it's proposals include purging the military's ranks and advocating for the removal of general based on their perceived political bias. proposals receive eliminating returns of quote, divisive critical race theory programs and der initiatives. project 2025 would expelled trans people

from service and would resend the policy's contrary to conservative government principles. to address low military recruitment, which it blends without citing evidence on what policies, project 2025 would force public school students to take a military aptitude test, known as the armed services vocational aptitude battery, a test to determine military suitability. in fact, declining recruitment goes back 10 years and studies have attributed low recruitment to concerns of injuries, among other factors, none of which have to do with "witness." project 2025 would put a stop to the efforts to secure u.s. elections, specifically by ending the summer commands work in defending the u.s. electoral system from foreign interference. makes you wonder why they are getting rid of a crucial set guard against election meddling. chapter 5 target the department of homeland security. it is authored by ken cuccinelli, who served as trump's acting homeland

security secretary. he has been accused of using politics of cruelty toward the lgbtq community and migrants. he fought against same-sex marriages during his tenure as virginia's attorney general. more recently, in 2022 computers border states to declare an invasion of their borders and deploy the national guard against migrants, a stance trump has echoed as recently as april. he has taken his politics of cruelty and turn them into policy proposals for projects 2025, including eliminating the department of homeland security entirely, which he slams as is and on domestic terrorist. instead, he calls for devoted resources or the border, advocating for a new quote, standalone border agency at the cabin level, one that would heavily militarize the board and prioritize building the wall. project 2025 also calls for the national security council to conduct a rigorous review of all promotions of military general to rule out what it terms social engineering and nondefense matters. social engineering is defined here as

a broad spectrum of that the right-wing is allergic to, including climate change, critical race theory, and dei training. while presidents have the authority to remove generals, the grounds have traditionally been based on poor performance. doing so as a political act with tarnished the perception of the military as being apolitical. critics warn that purging the written ranks fourth partisan regions could erode crucial cigars, potentially undermining the military code of justice, which dates that soldiers are not obligated to follow unlawful orders. former secretary of the u.s. navy notes that two bit rocks of the u.s. military are the principle of the billion control and the rule of law. quote, civilian control was enshrined in our constitution and has guided us centuries of conflict. the military does not operate outside of our democratic system, but instead answers to our elected representatives and appointed civilian leaders. he describes a troubling scenario if the military is publicized.

imagine a situation where a large group of activists gathered outside the white house. quote, as their numbers begin to swell, as their voices grow louder, the president issues a voice to commanders, take them out. our military leadership would be faced with an impossible choice. they would have to follow the clearly unlawful order of their commander in chief and commit crimes or which they could be prosecuted, or openly defy that order, and quote. after a quick break, i will talk more about project 2025's plan for national security with mark zaid, an intelligent expert and founder of the james madison project. with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment.

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joined me now for more on project 2025's plans for american defense, director of the james madison project, which educates the public on intelligence gathering and operations, national security, and government wrongdoing. spent a lot of time on chapter 7, defense, the intelligence community. there are other chapters that talk about intelligence gathering. i spoke at length about intelligence gathering for that . what concerns you on the intelligence site in terms of the cia on a project 2025? >> thanks, ali, good morning.

there's a lot of things. historically, the heritage foundation has been involved in obviously many, many residential administrations and giving advice from a conservative standpoint, just as there are liberal organizations that do the same on the opposite this one is different with project 2025, because it has a very cold like attitude throughout the document and it differs from chapter to chapter, but the intelligence, national security chapter is rife with problems. now, there are some very ordinary, and in many ways, agreeable concerns or identified areas for discussion. the classification, we are all on both sides interested in declassification, minimizing over classification. that is a good thing. looking at the director of national intelligence and the authority that it should or must have over the cia. then, it goes into partisan issues, and it talks about

rooting out people, essentially setting of loyalty test to make sure that anyone within the intelligence community who basically does not kiss the ring of king donald trump, in essence, must be removed from the community. we have never seen anything like that before, essentially, it is advocating a purge of anyone who might disagree with a second trump administration. >> a part of this vision is reflective not just in its policy proposals, but something we would like to point out here, some of the people involved, one such person, a name we have not talked about for a long time, john you, former justice department lawyer under the bush administration. he authored the infamous torture administrations, which authorized the use of torture. those policies have contributed to the news we have had this week about guantanamo's

continued existence and the delayed bricks fusion persecution for 20 detainees. one project 2025's backers recently wrote a chilling op-ed review: four revenge for democrats, one from attorney gleefully called it the vincent memo. talk to me about the dangers of this. >> so, when john yoo's memo on torture enhancement and interrogation came out back in the first bush administration, i was working mostly in the international human rights, dealing with war crimes and terrorism. we could look at the memo and say, all right, this is a lawyer advocating a position. i don't have to agree with it, but i can understand at least some of the legal arguments. this is different. this is not a legal policy evocation that john has come up with. it is an actual retribution policy, revenge policy.

he has basically said, a biblical eye for eye. they did it to us, we should exercise our authority to do it to them, whether doing it to them was the same, or anything justified. he singled out for the prosecution of hunter biden for, if i recall, connections to foreign governments, as if hunter biden had anything to do with the biden administration. he is a civilian family member. it is a scary proposal very similar to project 2025 that goes well beyond ideological views and policy shifts that a certain segment of the population might want. it is revengeful, it is vital, hateful , and it is authoritarian, much in the way we were talking about with venezuela. >> i thick it is interesting,

you point out that donald trump has helped us understand loyalty versus expertise. i did not think loyalty was a bad thing until i came across how donald trump uses it in government. we do not want it in our intelligence community, in our defense community for loyalty to take precedence over rationalism. thank you, mark always your executive director and founder of the james madison project and cofounder of whistleblower a. straightahead, west made it to the interview in-person with kamala harris? how is donald trump appearing to respond after a week of failing to lead a line of attack against kamala harris and mark this week's meeting of the velshi banned book club, author of "the last white man" joins me. another hour of "velshi" starts right now. ight now. good morning, it is saturday, august 3rd, 93 days until election day. it has been 13 days since vice president kamala harris took

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