on this new hour of ayman inside project demise project 2025. the man who has it and why they could live on if trump wins again. congressman eric is with us and why he calls it tepee 2025. it's a battle for the worst of the week. i'm sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. for project 2025, leading

this effort, now he is resigning from his post as this comes as they are winding down their policy work after sustained criticism by donald trump and his campaign. for weeks, trump has tried to distance himself from project 2025. appearing to recognize the policies are unpopular and the majority of the americans. and trump can't deny that his own former officials, at least 140 of them have been deeply involved with the conservative agenda. now one of those former officials is this guy named paul denz, who served as a top official at trump's office of personnel management. and his journey there wasn't a straight line as they report he appears to have taken a full turn to the right in law school where he joined the society. after graduation, he became a part of the world of young emerging corporate lawyers in the late 90s. standing out as much more

conservative than his peers. even back then he admired donald trump for bringing a can do spirit back. fast forward to the 2016 primary and he attended a dinner for the steering committee for the new york city lawyers chapter of the federalist society, where again, we see he stood out from the rest of his conservative peers by saying what no one else was really saying at the time that he liked trump as a candidate for president and that he was going to win. well, trump won. and danes found his way into his administration. he first joined the department of housing and urban development in 2019. it wasn't long before he gained more power. after being appointed as the white house liaison and the office of personal management, he ordered the removal of the agency's chief of staff, ousted the director, and then himself named chief of staff later that year. at the same time danes was working up the ranks, trump signed an executive it order in

october 2020 creating schedule f, a provision that strips job protections from government workers and makes them more easy to fire. schedule f is one of the key proposals of project 2025 and under danes' leadership, the party assembled a data base of more than 10,000 names of job candidates vetted for loyalty to trump's cause. and those individuals will be ready to be deployed into federal agencies should trump win the white house come november. now trump and his campaign, they tried to back pedal and their conservative manifesto. but the reality is pretty clear. trump is backing and has backed the very proposals that make up the framework for project 2025 and trump's own self-acclaimed official platform, it contains

similar proposals to project 2025. that includes a 10-point plan to dismantle the deep state and return power to the american people. i'll let donald trump explain it for himself. >> and here is my plan to reclaim our democracy from washington corruption once and for all and corruption it is. first i'll e immediately reissue my 2020 executive order restoring the president's authority to remove the rogue bureaucrats. i'll wheel that power very aggressively. >> he said it. all right, joining me now to discuss project 2025 and more, he offered the piece that i just discussed titled the man behind project 2025 most radical plans. also with us is the president and political analyst and columnist at the new york times. alec, i need to start with you

because it was incredible reporting and during meeting of the heritage foundation leaders back in january of 2023 where they decided that a second trump administration would need to be fully staffed with loyalists. something they would view as a failure of the first term. and it was created specifically for him and his future administration, was it not? >> correct. of course, there was a chance back then that maybe tay might have been the nominee and the expectation was likely going to be trump and was really deered towards addressing this major problem with the first trump administration that you have a deep state that they would see them so resistant to the agenda. they have done such a good job highlighting and creating new

foot soldiers of people who would be maga enough and skilled enough to go into the government next tomb and carry out the agenda. and they were able to get those sketches that they presented in that meeting in january of 2023 when he presented what he wanted that data base to look like and how it would work and to have all those names where they are fully vetted people and figure out which job they were going to take and they built that data base, which remains even as either saying they're running down that work where that work has gotten done. >> and let's talk about that effort for project 2025 where he knew nothing about it and take a look at april of 2022. >> and it is such an incredible

job where they are going to lay that ground work and the detail plan for what that movement will do when they give us a colossal mandate to save america. and that is coming. but do you think that back then he would backfire? >> i'll start with the second question because that to me is one of the most significant part of it and the catalyst for this large national pushback is not some savvy communication or operative. but they got out there and they said that their revolution would be bloodless if they allowed it to happen and that they were nerves on edge.

so what happened is he drew a lot of attention to this effort that was unfolding and uncovering all these things as you pointed out where they were back in april and he did not imagine that thing to be some sort of a pr problem because he says all that stuff and it is not like project 2025 that is much different from the standard donald trump thing. as they started to get attention, that they are going out there and contradicting what he said. right after they blew up just a couple of weeks ago where they understand he's making a political move, but don't worry, we will still full steam ahead and that is the big part about it and that they are shutting down the policy work. and as you note, they're in place and their personnel and training and then the other part, which is that playbook and that is still being written

and that is sort of a step-by- step guide for the first 180 days in office. it is just this one part of it and job done and let's hope they close out to create some distance, but it shouldn't and it won't. >> yes, i believe that he has that in it, right? and michelle, i want to talk to you about how he was forced out by the trump campaign and ultimately about that power struggle and who would be making the staffing decision in that administration. what does it say surrounding the campaign? or is it a smoke screen to create artificial distance? >> on the one hand i think that it is a smoke screen and that he's always gotten angry when he feels like people are taking credit for things or kind of using his name to further their own careers. but you know he has an interest in making it seem as if project

2025 is not a blew print the reason it won't fly because these are the people who are going to stop a trump administration and that entire project was that he was thwarted by the so-called deep state and other people would call them the adults in the room and that they staffed their first administration and they won't let that happen again. this is an effort to make sure that doesn't happen again. these are the people going into that administration and the oldest cliche in washington is that personnel is policy. >> right. >> and let's get on that because building a data base of 10,000 trump loyalists, it will take some time, right? you need to talk to these people and that you have probably gone to look at or examine the people that you

want to fire too, right? and so what would happen in the first week, let's say, of the second trump term? >> and what they will do, they will reinstate this thing, which he signed into law right before the 2020 election and then biden got rid of it and trump will bring that back and they are now in clear jobs and protected, protected from being fired and will get moved into a new category where it is easier to fire it down and it will be an estimate of 50,000 people who are in jobs that really have consequence. they will be shifting into that new category and it will be easier to fire them. i spoke to the author and he said that they won't necessarily need to fire all

50,000. they don't want to fire the 50,000 people because you would be left, but they do want to send a message that people need to start doing what they said where they feel like too many employees were slow walking things and that they wish they had to do it because they were being asked about things like that and it will be a signal sent that you're going to be at risk of being fired in that new category. so they will have o 4,000 people installed where they're open to being nominated for and then on top of that, they could potentially fire thousands more and put more people into those jobs. >> and that is radical. but what stuck out to me is that in the last week as trump has come down on project 2025,

there's been some subtle pushback, anonymous mostly for doing this. a part of the reason is a lot of people are working on project 2025 are trump people. they're the people who would work with trump who felt like they were doing a service for the campaign and the future administration. and they now feel like they're being scapegoated. did you expect to see any sort of civil strife within the conservative moment i should say over what's happening here or are they all going to get in line basically? >> i think that there will be more tension and pushback. now that he has created more distance or they created more distance, at least tried to where that messaging has gotten sharper. i mean we all know what that sounds like. if you just think about the way he's talking about project 2025 and that it is very soft, but

that's one of the things we're seeing from the radio host is actually the criticism of trump. and when they are really criticizing him and the advisers, saying look, they're trying to create some distance leaning into this more, leaning away from this where that narrative is going to continue to edge and i think that it will happen for two reasons. one, this isn't over where they need to continue to create some more space between trump and project 2025 and as evidence by the segment and others. that people will continue to talk about it. the other part is they know they have trump on the edge right now with that position, so everyone is about power and they don't want him to appear to be too mainstream and to their ideas and bases and that is the thing to consider here where it is an effort of the largest right wing operation and that it is a collaboration in this and that they have skin

in that game and they will continue to get in line like all republicans do, but they're going to push. >> and michelle, i wanted to ask you about the flip side of this. you're the harris campaign where you've seen that and it will shockingly come up with all the focus group and people are aware of it in polling. then you see them say that is not mine and those ideas are bad. what do you do if you're the harris campaign in this situation? >> i think that project 2025 is becoming such a useful shorthand and keep pointing out how it is with trump land, right? i mean next month that book will come out and he wrote that forward and there is no walking it back where everybody is in

their orbit where they need to keep on hammering that and not let him create this distance. >> all right, i've got to thank you for both coming on here and for the incredible piece and that you guys should all read it. thank you and stick around, please, both of you. after this break, i'll talk to congressman eric swalwell about what he thinks of project 2025 and more. stick with us. also in financial and estate planning and more. (other money manager) your clients rely on you for all that? (fisher investments) yes. and as a fiduciary, we always put their interests first. (other money manager) but you still sell commission -based products, right? (fisher investments) no. we have a simple management fee structured so we do better when our clients do better. (other money manager) huh, we're more different than i thought! (fisher investments) at fisher investments, we're clearly different. why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed? i need help with her snoring.

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before the break, we discussed how it appears to be the beginning of the end of project 2025 or maybe not. after the former president and his allies spent weeks to distance themselves from the far right agenda. no matter how hard they try, they do have eyes and we have the receipts. they are back by more than 100 conservative organizations and many that were led by close trump allies. by one count, there are at least 140 former trump officials that are afulluated with the project that will include paul danes himself. and with me now is the congressman from california and eric swalwell. before we get to project 2025, i have to go to some breaking twitter news. i'm about to be live on msnbc

and just told my horizontal striped shirt is a major no-no for tv. >> sam, i don't know. >> how do you defend yourself with these choices that you're making? >> yeah, sam, don't judge me by my fashion choices. >> and we will not do that. you called project 2025 tepee 2025 in reference to how closely trump's agenda by the heritage foundation are. what do you make of trump trying to distance himself from this project? and frankly he is distancing himself from his own former and possibly future official and that is the key. >> yeah, he is trying to distance himself from that name and because of the way he sees it that the name is unpopular and the policies are not going to be unused by donald trump as

we should just walk through what the project would do and they would ban the same-sex marriage and forces straight people that they will force you into that pregnancy and to start the family, then they have done that and sam is a father of three little kids and you think about what it does to that education system. well, they would eliminate, not cut in half, but eliminate that department of education and he said on day one he's going to defund them and that we're talking about the return of whooping cough and polio, polio. so he has wrecked this country and with trump's 2025, he'll wreck it on the bigger scale.

can't he leave those kids out of it? >> and i hear you and beyond that perspective here. what do you think of him stepping down? is this just him playing, you know, good cop here and willing to do what trump says or is there something more to it in your mind? >> and if he wins, catch him at his confirmation hearing, right? and again, he just care about it being unpopular, but that never stopped him from doing something unpopular. he said that out loud that we need to stop talking about abortion because it is unpopular as hesiod that in recent speeches. he's the one that will put three judges on the supreme court who are working out of this palm who have robbed us of

roe and that it is hurting him politically. so he doesn't operate with any political philosophy. it is just me, me, me and that is hurting him politically. but if he wins, they're all going to that administration. >> i cannot imagine that he would be against them at all if he didn't think it was hurting him. and i want to switch to the democratic side of things. i mean it will be days or maybe less and she's planning to meet with some of the top contenders this weekend and expected to make a final decision. how close do you think it will be between those contenders that we pictured up on the screen and who do you like? >> if you ask steve kerr who is your favorite player on team u.s.a.? is it steph curry or lebron? >> you would say steph and that

is his guy. >> she's blessed with talent. but donald trump had to pick from the bad news bears and he picked j.d. vance. whoever she picks, it will not be somebody who tells single women who have cats that their vote doesn't count as much as somebody who has family. >> do you have a favorite? >> i love them all and again, they are all going to be ready and they are all going to help her make that case and then they will all have, you know, the guts to show up at the debate. >> and let me ask you about that debate. trump just pulled out of the debate and said look, i'll do something on fox and you should join me. you know, it is bizarre behavior, but that's what he said. do you think that they will call that bluff and join them

or they should handle it differently? >> she has agreed to show up to the debate they agreed upon. he's saying i know agreed, but i'm changing the venue. if that is the super bowl, both agreeing on the date and location and they say we are boycotting unless you agree to the new terms where we will only play in our home stadium and we will hire only our refs. and that this is donald trump and we all know it. >> all right, eric swalwell who is bringing back the striped shirts, thank you very much. >> real quick, this monday night, the team that will have that one is the team that wins and it is ben stiller and kathy griffin and many more.

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get started today. meet the jennifers. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. hellooo new apartment. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. donald trump and his republican allies have long accused social media platforms like x of helping to tip the scales towards biden in 2020. now this baseless claim was even further by elon musk, the billionaire who went onto buy x. and in fact he began his reign in 2022 by accusing the previous leadership of interfering with those elections and that it will be far more effective, transparent, and even handed under his watch. well, he's now failed that

standard spectacularly. let's go through some of those developments. he recently endorsed donald trump shared a parody with his more than 192 million followers where that video would contain harris referring to themselves and that he posted it without labeling it and that is the violation of sharing data as he was quick to condemn where they would vow to sign a bill that would ban such practices. and now musk would attack newsom while defending that post as a form of parody. since then he has upped his efforts. on monday after the pro harris group white dudes for harris

raised more than $4 million on the fundraising call, their account was suspended for several hours. and the account was e reunstated the next day following the backlash. meanwhile he has started to add that important caveat when discussing that potential win in november. in an interview, he told the atlantic if there are questions of integrity, they should be properly investigated and if after the review of the election result that it turns out that kamala wins, that win should be recognized. the keyword is if, taking us to the new report yesterday on the pack created by musk and that they focus on the website that

will help register people to vote. but depending on where you live, results may vary. if they live in a state that's not considered competitive like wyoming or california, then they're prompted to enter their e-mail address and before being quickly directed to a voter registration page for their state. if they live in that had battleground state, they're prompted to give that information. and they are showing a simple thank you page instead where that swing state user won't get any help registering, but they would have handed out personal day to to that operation created by the richest man in the world who happens to be endorsing donald trump. and they do not disclose any political innings, but in those filings, their work is designed to help trump or hurt his opponent and much like we see

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for president and created his own pack. that's a lot who promised that it would be politically neutral. joining me now is the ceo and political analyst thank you for coming back. appreciate it. he denied reports that he's giving $45 million a month to the super pack and that this week, we would see them help trump get elected and against the harris campaign. what do you make of that maneuvering here? >> it is significant and it is because of the connection to x and twitter. and that we shouldn't discount the affect that they will have and more broadly as he pointed out and he complained as he thought they had an influence

in the past. and it is sort of like fox news. that he thinks everybody else is in the tank for democrats. and so that he'll get to do things with them in order to balance out the skills and so it is going to change the way they will make it worse and that it will have that secondary affect that you pointed out especially with the election tie if and that he has been promoting this week and that 14% are non-citizens as you're talking about the legal votes and that is that kind of ground work that he is laying directly. so it will have a platform and

it is amplifying and reinforcing a bunch of the narratives that will be pointed back to it. >> i want to focus also on the deep fake video because, you know, on the one hand, i watched it and it is obvious to me from that jump that it is a fake video and a lot of people assumed it is a fake video, right? it is not impossible of posting that fake video and to do so it is the week before the election and how concerned should we be about that possibility that he will use this platform that he owns and the 107 million people who follow him to do something like that? >> we should be extremely concerned and it is not just him personally posting

something although he'll post all sorts of far right content and the information and that he is now opening the platform next to that and at the same time as he is appearing to be progressive content or pro democratic content. i mean twitter was a cesspool before elon musk took over and had a lot to do with donald trump webbing in 2016. it's not that it is a healthy ecosystem, but he has turned it into something in some ways, it is just on a hassive scale. >> and exactly, right? he just recently smeared her in response to that video of her

discovering what they were facing and that is a guy who made it on building that business to try to address it. and that it is hard to put yourself there with him, but what's going on? >> and it is not just him, but we've seen the rich middle-aged men who really hated what they would call wokeness and hated the me too moment when they would reveal the discussions or the various forms of abuse by elon musk himself. really the labor move. really, they hate unions and they hate regulation. so it is a combination of irritation and self-interest, but just spending too much time

on their platform, right? he is also on there and red pilled himself. >> yeah, i'm amazed of how much he's tweeting. i tweet a lot. but you know, that's my job. angelo, i actually want to start and jump on that and bring it to a different area, which is election denialism. we saw some caveating about well, would you accept the results if they are proven. i think that we're in this kind of weird place, right? on the one hand, the dominion lawsuit is a big wake up call to companies, and you have things like what they were doing as you would have him still pushing if they lose and when it comes to the election

denialism in the media? >> and it is an actual backup plan and instead of spending two months in the moments to sort of see an alternative way of securing the white house, they're starting that and that is what it is almost all of them will have that same position. of course, we'll have separate results if it is fair and no reports about any sort of potential issues. at the same time, they are already seasoning the landscape with this idea that it will be stolen and even he was making claims that harris was importing voters out there from around the world where we should be deeply concerned about this and aware that it will be much more potent and

the tools will be ready to go. they just need to take it off the shelf. and it is in lock step on this that no matter what happens, it will be stolen if he doesn't win and that is what most of the public has not adapted to yet and they're acting accordingly. >> all right, uplifting stuff as always. everyone is sticking around. next, it's time for worst of the week, a true battle of the s sexists. choose acid prevention. choose nexium.

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it's a battle of head scratching for the worst of the week. john kennedy of louisiana who got pushback on fox news of all places for the targeted attacks on vice president kamala harris. >> and what i've seen is that many americans think that the

vice president is not a serious person as i said, she's a bit of a ding-dong. >> i'm just wondering how you think that will resonate with women when she is called nasty, crazy, a ding-dong, and disrespectful between you and the president and what has been said about her. i'm wondering do you worry about how that comes across? >> i don't care about her gender. maybe you do, but i don't. i don't care about her race. i care about her character. >> why call her a ding-dong? >> well, kennedy left that part when he left it on social media. here is our next contender who brought us this it unhinged rant. >> i don't see why any man would vote democrat. to be a man and then vote for a woman just because she is a woman? either childish, that person has mommy issues or they are just trying to be accepted by

other women. i heard them say the other day when a man votes for a woman, he would transition into a woman. >> it's true, science. my panel is back with me now and michelle, who is your pick? kennedy or waters? >> i guess waters. i would give them credit. it's like part, i can't even get outraged about these guys. my attitude is really like please, keep talking. like keep saying this stuff for the next three months. >> right. it will be more interesting if it was more sophisticated, i suppose. who are you going with here? >> jesse waters because i think obviously it's ridiculous, but this is what he says all the time. so the consistency, i think that it is key here. >> it's been a year since they parted ways and reports that he

has fostered the work environment at the network and here we are, causing the placement and echoing that same kind of rhetoric that got him in trouble in the first place. is this a part of the system that we're dealing with here? >> i mean tucker carlson was hardly the only deeply person at fox. this is a company that was shot through with horrific sexual harassment and sexual abuse and still thanks to what will exist to promote extremely retro grade gender stereotypes. of course, this is what they do as i hope that harris doesn't get too caught up in taking that debate, on with the eye roll and let them show us who

they are. >> actually let's talk about that and what do you think she should do here? trump is doing it himself, you know, just ignore it or fight fire with fire a little bit? >> i don't think they need to ignore it, but they don't need to engage it. it seems to be working to briefly elude to it. and not to feel like you have to rise to it. >> i don't know how much credit you would give them as they did push back on kennedy's remarks and why he was calling her a ding-dong and that he is just that sort of, he's not the norm, but what do you make of

him speaking on that? >> and that is basic decency and that it is not smart and that maybe republicans shouldn't take it and hoping to take advantage of that. but that's the reality that yeah, okay, sometimes there is water in that desert and it is a big deal where they had basic decency and that is what they are going to hammer on and not because that is what they are and that is what they think their audience is and that they could give them credit for that and that it just shows how well they are in that media. >> and i look at fox and i think to that degree that they will have an agenda and a conservative bend. do they not recognize that they are to the very voters that they need and that suburban

women and voters might look at it had and be turned off by it or is it just about audience? >> well, i think that everything they do is about that audience share and that sometimes you'll see them on fox and try to guide trump back, right? and that you didn't really mean that or here is a chance to clear that up and, you know, i think that there might be some people at fox who are practices and they got to where they are by feeding their audience. >> and it is like when they asked that you were going to be a dictator and for a day. all right, thank you so much for joining us. thank you at home for making time for us. we'll be back here tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. eastern. till we meet again, i'm sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin.

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