i would be remiss if i didn't tell you tonight there's another one of those huge, huge zoom calls in support of kamala harris' campaign going on. black women got the ball rolling first, of course, and there have been calls for black men and for asian pacific islander people and a lot of different groups. but tonight is white dudes for harris. organizers say 75,000 people attended and among the attendee was the dude himself, jeff bridges who said i'm white, i'm the dude, and i'm for harris. occasionally it actually is. thanks for being with us tonight. on this new hour of ayman inside the public demise of

project 2025. the man who heads it and why they could live on. we'll ask him why he calls it tepee 2025. i think i know. it's a battle between senator john kennedy and jesse waters for worst of the week. i'm sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. all right this week, a glimmer of what could be the beginning of the end and the heritage foundation official that's leading this effort and now he is resigning from his post. this comes as the group is also winding down their policy work after sustained criticism by donald trump in his campaign. for weeks trump has tried to distance himself from project 2025, appearing to recognize its policies are unpopular with the majority of americans.

but despite these failed efforts, trump can't deny that his own former officials, at least 140 of them have been deeply involved with this conservative agenda. now one of those former officials, this guy named paul danes himself who served as a top official at trump's office of management. and it was in a straight line as they report he appears to have taken a full turn and he joined the society and became a part of the young emerging corporate lawyers in the late 90s. even back then he had admired trump and fast forward to attending a dinner for the chapter of the society where again, we would see that he stood out from the rest of his peers by saying what no one

else was saying at the time that he was going to win. well, trump won and danes found his way into his administration. and it was not long before he gunned more power. and in 2020, he ordered the removal of the chief of staff, ousting the director, and was then himself named chief of staff later that year. at the same time trump signed an executive order in october of 2020 creating schedule f, that will strip job protection and they will make them more easy to fire. and it is one of the key project proposal and more than

10,000 names of the job candidates betted for loyalty. and those individuals, they will be ready to be deployed into federal ajen schism and back pedaled to project 2025. and that the reality is pretty clear where he's backed the proposals that will make up the framework and trump's own self- proclaimed platform, which is known as agenda 47 that they will contain the similar proposals to project 2025 that will include a ten-point plan to dismantle the deep state and return power to the american people. and i'll let him explain it for himself. >> and here is my plan to dismantle the deep state and from the corruption once and for all and corruption it is.

first i'll reissue my 2020 executive order to remove rogue democrats and i'll wheel that power. >> he said it. joining me to discuss project 2025 is alec mcgillis who authored the piece i just discussed, titled "the man behind project 2025's most radical plans." also with us is angelo, president of media matters and michelle goldberg, msnbc political analyst and columnist at the new york times. alec, i've got to start with you because the piece was, i mean honestly incredible reporting. it was during a meeting of the heritage foundation leaders back in january of 2023 where they decided that the second trump administration would need to be fully staffed with the loyalists, something they viewed as a failure of the first term and so as much as they do try to deny the project that it was created

specifically for him and was it not? >> correct. that there was a chance back then that maybe someone else might have been that nominee and what was likely going to be trump and it was geared towards addressing the first administration with that deep state that they saw it and so the core of that project wasn't so much that they have done a good job of highlighting and they were creating new foot soldiers of people who would be enough and skilled enough to go into that government the next time and carry it out in a way that it was not possible and that i was able to get those schedules that paul danes presented during that meeting where it's what he wanted them to look at and how it was going to work and fully vet those

people and figure out what job they were going to take and they built that data base where they will remain even as they're saying that work has gotten done. >> and let's talk about trump's efforts to create distance between himself and in a post on truth social, he claims he knew nothing about it. but take a listen to what hi said in april of 2022. >> and they do such an incredible job to it lay that ground work and what your movement will do when they will give us the colossal mandate. that's coming. >> and never one for consistency, but angelo, back then, do you think it would

backfire? and also how did it become this way? >> i would start with the second question because that to me is one of the most significant pieces of this and for this large national pushback is not some salve view communication by any campaign or operative. that they got out there and they said that the revolution would be blood less and that they raised it in a moment where everyone was on edge and he drew a lot of attention to this effort that was unfolding and all these things that you pointed out and he did not expect that and some sort of a problem as he says all that stuff and it is not like they

are that much different from the standard donald trump thing that we get. as he started to get attention, paul danes, kevin roberts are going out there and essentially contradicting what he is saying. and just a couple of weeks ago, we understand trump is making a political move. i think that's the big part about this that they are hitting down the policy work. but the other three pillars are in place. and the other part, that is still being written and that is a step-by-step guide. so it is alive and that one part of it, okay, let's hope this closes out and it shouldn't and it won't. >> and i believe he has that in it and i want to talk to you about the report that paul danes was forced out of his

role by the trump campaign and it is ultimately about a power struggle and who would be making the staffing decisions in a possible trump administration. and what do you make of this? what does it say about that internal struggles surrounding the campaign? >> on the one hand, it's certainly true that he has always gotten angry when he feels like people are taking credit for things or using his name to further their own careers. but you know, he has an interest in making it seem as if project 2025 is not the blueprint. and the reason why that won't fly as they said, these are the people who are going to stop that second trump administration and that he was thwarted by the so called deep

state and other people would call them the adults in the room and those who staffed his first administration. they won't let that happen again. this is an effort to make sure that doesn't happen again. and so these are the people that are going in to the administration and the oldest cliche in washington is that personnel is policy. >> right. let's get on that because building a data base, i mean it take some time and you've probably gone and looked at or examined the people that you'll want to fire, right? and what would happen in the first week, let's say of a second trump term if they do, in fact, go through these plans? >> and with a they will do, they will reinstate this thing, which trump had signed into law

before that election and they will bring that thing back and basically that it is what they need with some 50,000 people who are now in clear jobs that are protected and they are protected from being arbitrarily fired and will get moved into a new category where it is much easier to fire them and it will be up to 50,000 people who are in jobs and policy shaping and that they will have consequences. so they will be stripped into the new category and it will be much easier to fire them and i spoke to the author as they say they will not need to fire all 50,000 people and that you'll be left water less and that people in these jobs, they feel like too many employees were slow walking things, that they wish they would say they had to do it because they were being

asked things that were against the law and this time around that it will be sent and if you don't drill that line that you'll be at risk and so they are going to have 4,000 people installed in the shops that they are open to being nominated for and that on top of that, they could fire thousands more and put more people into those jobs. >> that is radical. and what stuck out to me is that in that last week as he has come down, there's been subtle pushback and against the operation for doing this and that a part of the reason is that a lot of people are working on project 2025 are trump people and they worked with trump and they felt like they were doing a service for the campaign and the future administration. and now they feel like they are

being scapegoated. do you expect to see any sort of strife within the movement i should say over what is happening here? >> there will be more tension because now that he has created more and they would at least try to and that messaging has gotten sharper. we know what happens when trump wants to attack something, right? we know what that sounds like. if you just think of the way he's talking about that foundation, it is very soft and one of the things that you're seeing, it's criticism of trump and criticizing your advisers, saying look, they're trying to create that distance, running away from that and that will continue to edge and will happen for two reasons.

and they will need to try to create more space between trump and project 2025 that they will talk about it and the other part is they know they have trump on the edge right now and so everyone is about power in these places and they don't want trump to get too mainstream where they want them catering to their ideas and their basis and that is the thing to consider there where it is an effort of the largest right wing operations, policy shops, and so they will each have them and their stakes at this and they don't want much separation be they will continue to get in line like all republicans do and they are going to push. >> the ankle bite. and i want to ask you about the flip side of this and you've seen that and it will come up

and all the focus groups and i don't know what these are. what do you do if you're the harris campaign in this situation? >> and project 2025 is such a shorthand for the entire agenda and keep pointing out how entwined it is with trump land, right? next month, kevin robert's book is going to come out and he wrote it and there is no walking that back and it is kind of everybody in trump's orbit. so they will just need to keep on hammering that and not let him create the distance. >> and i've got to thank you for for the incredible piece. angelo and michelle. thank you. stick around, please. after this break, i'll talk to

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before the break, we discussed how it appears to be the beginning of the end of project 2025 or maybe not. paul danes, the project director stepped down from his role after backlash from trump and his campaign. after the former president and his allies have spent weeks working to distance themselves from the far right agenda. no matter how hard they tried,

the american people do have eyes and we have the receipts. it's backed by more than 100 conservative organizations, many led by trump allies and at least 140 officials that includes paul danes himself. and congressman, before we get to the report, an account representing eric swalwell. i'm about to be live on msnbc and was told my horizontal striped search is a major no-no for tv. >> sam, i don't know. >> how do you defend yourself with these choices you're making here? >> don't judge me by my fashion choices. >> we will not do that. >> let's get into real business here.

congressman, you called project 2025 tepee 2025 and in reference to how closely the conservative agenda by the heritage foundation are. what do you make of trump trying to distance himself from this project? and frankly he is distancing himself from his own former and possibly future officials. that's the key. these people, they will probably go in and staff him if he wins again? >> yeah. and he is just trying to distance himself from the name because of the way he sees it is that the name is unpopular. but the policies, they are not going to be unused by donald trump. we should just walk through what the project would do and they would ban the same-sex marriage. but they force the straight people in that marriage. they would force you into the government mandated privacy and that these weirdos have done just that and what does it do

to our education system and well trump's project 2025 would totally eliminate. not cut in half, but eliminate the department of education. doesn't donald trump want our kids to be smarter than him? and on top of that, he said on day one, he's going to defund all schools with any vaccine mandate. and not just measles. we are talking about the return of the whooping cough and polio. polio. so donald trump has wrecked this country. and with trump's 2025, he's going to wreck it on the much bigger scale. can he at least leave the kids out of this? >> yeah. i hear you. and beyond the policy perspective here. what you'll make of them stepping down. is this just him haying good

cop here or is there something more there? >> and if trump wins, catch him at his confirmation hearing and he cares about it being unpopular. he says that outloud because it's unpopular and he has said that in recent speeches, where he's the one that put the three judges on the supreme court who have robbed us of row and not that they did that, but it's hurting him politically. so this guy doesn't operation with any moral core or political philosophy. it is just me, me, me. this is hurting him politically. if he wins, these guys are all going to the administration. >> right. i just can't imagine that he'll be publicly against the project at all if he did not think it was hurting him or resonating with the voters. i actually want to switch to

the democratic side of things. vice president harris, i mean it's going to be days, maybe less before they will choose their own nominee to be on the ballot where she is planning to meet with some of the top contenders this weekend and expects to make it a fine decision by tuesday, although they could leak before then. how close of a decision do you think that it will be between those contenders that we just pictured up on the screen and who do you like? >> if you like asking steve kerr who is your favorite player on team u.s.a. >> we say steph. you would say steph. that's his guy. >> and she's blessed with talent. and i promise you whoever she picks, it won't be somebody who will tell single women who have cats that their votes will not count as much.

>> do you have a favorite? >> i love them all. and they are all qualified. they will all be ready. and they are all going to help her make the case against donald trump. and they will all have, you know, the guts to show up at the vice presidential debate. >> let me ask you about the debates because we have back and forth tonight. not really back and forth. but trump just pulled out of the agreed upon debate and say look, i'm going to do something on fox and you should join me. you know, it's bizarre behavior. that's what he said. i'm doing something on fox. do you think that they will call his bluff and just join him? or do you think they should handle it differently? >> she has agreed to show up to the debate agreed upon. what he's saying now, i know i agreed, but i'm changing that venue or i'm not playing. if this is the super bowl, both teams will agree on the date and location and then right before the big game, the scared team would say we are boycotting unless you agree to the new terms. we'll only play in that home

stadium and only have our fans, and we'll hire only our reps. this is just donald dodging the debate and we all know it. >> bringing back the striped ships, thank you so much. this monday night, a team that would have fun is the team that will win. we are doing that monday night, it's it june. and kathy griffin and many, many more. >> are you doing a comedy routine for this or no? >> i need to meet more people who do it. >> congressman eric swalwell, thank you so much. elon musk once called out social media companies for tipping the political scales. what is he doing now that he owns x?

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long accusing social media platforms like x of helping to tip the scale towards biden. and this claim was even furthered by elon musk, the billionaire who went on to buy x. in fact he began his reign it in 2022 by accusing the previous leadership of handing things under his watch and he's failed that standard. let's go through some of these developments in just this past week and musk shared a parody harris campaign ad with his more than 192 million followers. the deep pic video contains altered audio of harris referring to herself as an ultimate diversity hire. musk posted it without labeling it as misleading. that's an apparent violation of

his own platform's policy on sharing manipulated data. gavin newsom was quick to condemn it saying manipulating a voice in an ad should be illegal and vowed to sign a bill that would ban such practices. and now musk in his fashion attacked newsom while defending the post as a form of parody. since then he has upped his efforts to help trump. on monday after the white dudes for harris raised more than $4 million on a fundraising call, their account was suspended for several hours. it was due to evading suspension rules. meanwhile musk has started to add an important caveat. in an interview published on

thursday, if there are questions of the election integrity, they should be investigated and if after review of the election results it turns out kamala wins, then that win should be recognized and not disputed and of course, that's an if. that takes us to the new cnbc report yesterday on a pac called america pac helping people vote. but depending on where you live, they might vary. if they live in a state that's not considered competitive like wyoming or california, they're propertied to enter their e- mail address. but if you live in a battleground state, well they're prompted to give highly

personal information. and sharing a simple thank you page instead. they will not get any help registering, but handed over personal data, created by the richest man in the world who happens to be endorsing donald trump. and the pac's website does not discloses any political innings, but they say their work is designed to help trump. now keep in mind everything we shared tonight happened just over seven days. seven days. my panel is back after the break to talk about that and much more. and special offers. don't miss out. get started today. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it.

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before the break, i laid out how elon musk has become a political forest in the next presidential election. in addition to sharing his own political views on the social media platform. musk has created his own pac, a lot of politicking for a guy who promised x would be political neutral. joining me now is the ceo of media matters and columnist of the new york times, michelle goldberg. angelo and michelle, thank you for coming back. i appreciate it. that he's giving $45 million a month and this week, we see all

the activity to help him get elected. what do you make of the maneuvering here? >> i mean this is real significant and not just because of the wealth and resources and the connection to x and twitter and we shouldn't discount the affect that it would have and more broadly on the rest of the information landscape where he complained and thought they had influenced in the past and it is sort of like the fox news, which is sort of the approach and so it is not what he does with that itself and they change the way they operate and they will make them worse rolling back their policies as well. the secondary affect.

i mean in addition to the examples that you pointed out, he's doing other things especially with the election tie in of some of the content he's been promoting this week and claiming that 14% of the voters in georgia are non- citizens and that you're talking about tens of thousands of illegal votes potentially. that's the kind of ground work that he's laying by amplifying these third parties directly where they will have that platform and him just super charging, reinforcing the narrative that will move back to if he loses that election. >> yeah, michelle, i want to piggyback on that and the deep fake video. on the one hand, i watched it and it is obvious to me that it was a fake video where a lot of people assumed that fake video,

right? it is not impossible of him posting the fake video and the week before the election and how concerned should we be about that, in the people that will follow them to do something like that? >> and we should be extremely concerned and it is not just him, the danger is not just him personally posting something, although he posts all sorts of far right content and information that he's opened the platform up to that. at the same time as he is appearing to be actively quashing the progressive content or the democratic content where it was a cesspool before elon musk took over and they have a lot to do with

donald trump winning. so it is not as if this was a healthy ecosystem, but he has turned it into something and in some way, that it is on the massive scale. >> yeah, and again, to you, michelle, exactly, right? and he has called harris a diversity hire where he just recently smeared her and in response to the video of her discussing the comedy and this is a guy who made his fortune and actually building that business to try to address it and it is hard to put yourself in his head and what is going on with him and his politics here? >> i think that it is not just him that we have seen a layer of people in silicon valley and the very rich middle-aged men

who really hated the pandemic restrictions. really hated what they called wokeness, and they really hated the #metoo movement, you know, particularly when it revealed discretions and various forms of abuse by elon musk himself. and really the labor movement and really hate unions and hate regulations. and so it's a combination of i think irritation and self- interest and spending too much time on their own platform because he's not just x's owner, but he's always on there and himself. >> i'm amazed at how much he's tweeting and that i would tweet a lot and you know that is my job sort of and a bunch of different businesses and that i want to bring it to a different era, which is some caveating about well, would you accept the results if they are proven. i think we're in this kind of

weird place, right? on the one hand the dominion lawsuit should have, you know, been a big wake up call to media companies that are pedaling the stuff. on the other, you have things like what musk was doing in that atlantic interview. you have trump that is still pushing the big lie for challenging the upcoming elections if he loses. how do you assess the current landscape when it comes to the election denialism in the media? >> and now it is not incidental and they recognize it as an actual backup plan. so instead of spending two months in the moments after the election to try to sort of fuel that alternative way, they are actually building the backup plan and so every republican, almost all of them will have the same position and they will

accept the results if they are fair and any sort of issue and at the same time, they are seasoning the landscape with the idea that it will be stolen and that he was making the claims that harris was importing, yo anoa, voters from around the world. these are claims that they're putting out there. so i think we should be deeply concerned about this and aware that it is not something that is going to be much more potent. the tools are going to be ready to go. they just need to take it off the shelves. the right wing media, it's pretty much in lock step with this and that no matter what happens, the election will be stolen if donald trump doesn't win. i think that will be the part that may be the larger media landscape and most of the public has not adapted to it yet and that is a viable backup plan and they are acting accordingly. >> all right, uplifting stuff as always. all right even is sticking around because next, it's time for worst of the week.

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targeted attacks on vice president kamala harris. >> the polling that i've seen shows that many americans think the vice president is not a serious person as i said that she is a bit of a ding-dong. >> i'm wondering how you think that will resonate with women when she is called nasty, crazy, and a ding-dong between you and the president and what has been said about her. i'm just wondering do you worry how that comes across? >> i don't care about her gender. maybe you do, but i don't. and i care about her politics. >> why call her a ding-dong? >> well, kennedy left out that part of the exchange when he posted it on social media. speaking of fox, our next contend, jesse waters who brought us this unhinged rant. >> now i don't see why any man would vote democrat. to be a man and then vote for a

woman just because she's a woman is either childish. that person has mommy issues, or they are just trying to be accepted by other women. and i heard the scientist its say the other day when a man votes for a woman, he transitions into a woman. >> it's true, science. my panel is back with me now. michelle, who is your pick? kennedy or waters? >> i guess waters. although giving them credit, i can't even get outreached about these guys because my attitude is like please, keep talking and keep saying this stuff for the next three months. >> right, and angelo, who are you going with here? >> jesse waters because obviously it is so ridiculous. but this is what he says all the time. so i think the consistency is key here.

>> so we have a sweep here, i guess. all right, michelle, it's only a year since tucker carlson and fox parted ways. and yet here we are, he's the prime time replacement with the same sexist rhetoric that got carlson in trouble in the first place. is this a part of that system? >> he was hardly the only, you know, person at fox and this is a company that was seeing horrific sexual abuse and still seems to, it still exists to promote extremely retrograde gender stereotypes. and so of course, this is what fox does and i hope that

harris, doesn't get too caught up with the debate and to let these guys show us who they are. >> and let's talk about that and what do you think she should do here? and trump is doing it himself, you know, just ignore it and keep on script? >> well look, i don't think that they need to ignore it but i also don't know if they need to engage it and that it seems to be working, to briefly elude to it with that kind of exacerbated laugh to point out how weird these guys are. and not to feel like you have to rise to the level of fighting it. >> right. angelo, i don't know how much credit you would give them, but i'll say neil, he did push back on kennedy's remarks. questioning why he was calling

her a ding-dong. obviously he's just sort of the -- he's not the norm of the network, but what do you make of him speaking out in that fashion? >> i mean i think he spoke about the decency and that it is not politically smart and hoping to sort of take advantage of that and the reality is yeah, okay, sometimes there is water in the desert and that is the way i look at this here and that he has basic decency and what they are saying every day and that is what they will ham or on and not because that's what the hosts are and to me, you know, they could give them credit for that and it just shows how well the bar is in the media. >> and i look at fox and i think to a degree where they

have an editorial tend. do they not recognize that this is exactly what trump needs and that suburban women might look at this and say it is abhorrent and turned off by it or is it just about audience sharing nonetheless? >> and i think that everything is about the audience share and that to what angelo said, sometimes you'll see the various hosts on fox try to guide and certainly trying to guide trump back saying here is a chance to clear that ill up and he never does it where there might be some people at fox who are savvy and a lot of people who have gotten to where they are by feeding their audience. >> right. and it is like when they asked, you didn't mean that you would be a dictator. and thank you so much for joining us. thank you at home for making

time for us. we'll be back here tomorrow at 7:00 p.m. eastern. till we meet again, i'm sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin. have a good night. ♪♪ whoa nelly! iphone 15 with tons of storage. i really want one! yo! you've won 14 times on the lpga tour! since when is one enough for you! that is true.. get your head out of the sand trap, switch to t-mobile and get four iphone 15's on them and four lines for just $25 a line. and you can save on every plan versus the other big guys. [glass shattering] swing big at t-mobile. get four iphone 15's on us. and four lines for $25 a line. fore!!! ♪♪ ok limu! you set it, and as i spike it, i'll tell them how liberty mutual customizes car insurance, so they only pay for what they need. got it? [squawks] did you get that? only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty,♪ ♪liberty, liberty.♪

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