kamala harris could announce a running mate at any moment, and donald trump is backing out of a debate he already agreed to.

james carville and reverend al sharpton are standing by to talk about all of it, plus washington insiders seem to think josh shapiro is the odds on favorite to get on the ticket, but how do voters feel about it? sarah longwell is going to tell us what she is hearing and focus groups. and later, i will talk to congresswoman elissa slotkin, who is running for senate and one of the most closely watched races in the country. >> [ music ] okay, the first thing we should tell you today is that we are watching and waiting for any news at all about kamala harris's running mate. the vice president has been meeting with candidates one on one at her home in washington this weekend. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro, minnesota governor tim walz, and arizona senator mark kelly are all meeting with her today. former attorney general eric holder, the guy who is overseeing the vetting process,

has been seen exiting the house as well, that is an important thing to watch for, too. and she is holding a rally on tuesday night with her running mate in philadelphia. so basically, we are getting very, very close to a decision here, and if we learn anything new at all in the next hour, i promise i will let you know as soon as we know. but the fact is no matter who she chooses, the announcement of this pick is going to build even more momentum on top of the already growing momentum for the harris campaign. the vice president has been holding big, energizing rallies like the one with megan thee stallion where she performed in atlanta this week, where the wrapper coined the phrase hotties for harris. she brought on a number of veterans like david, stephanie or, to add to an already seasoned team. the money is continuing to pour in at an insane pace. harris campaign said this week, they raised a record-breaking $310 million in july. and a brand-new cbs news poll out just this morning, harris has a one point edge nationally

over trump and they are tied across the collective battleground states, which is the most important thing to watch, the battleground states. so, the momentum is pretty clear to anyone watching. what is also clear is that all the attention on harris, all the momentum is driving trump kind of crazy. and he is twisting himself into a pretzel as a result. and i will tell you that this weekend was a weird one for donald trump, even by donald trump's standards. i mean, at his own rally last night in atlanta, whereby the way, he had a much harder time filling the same venue harris appeared at earlier in the week, he had some very strange things to say, like when he congratulated vladimir putin. of all people, for the historic prisoners swap that freed american citizens from russia. he also repeatedly attacked george is a very popular, very beloved republican governor brian kemp, for not being sufficiently loyal to him. >> atlanta is like a killing

field and your governor ought to get off his butt and do something about it. brian kemp, your governor, who i got elected, by the way, a very disloyal person. they are doing everything possible to make 2024 difficult for republicans to win. brian kemp is very bad for the republican party. you can do a lot better and you will do a lot better with a better governor. the state has become a laughing stock over it. he is a bad guy and he is not doing this country a good service. he is a bad guy, he is a disloyal guy, and he is a very average governor. little brian kemp, bad guy. >> okay, first of all, none of that is true, and beyond that, brian kemp is a widely popular republican governor in a very important state where trump was literally speaking. he was just saying that on the stage in that home state. a guy who was reportedly open to campaigning with him this

fall, despite not supporting him in the primary, but it doesn't seem like it anymore. like i said, trump is twisting himself into this very strange, weird pretzel. right? earlier in the day on saturday, before all the dictator congratulating and bashing of members of his own party in their own states, donald trump pulled out of a debate he had already agreed to. john said he would not be attending the already scheduled nbc news debate on september 10th, instead he proposed a debate on fox news, of course. a week earlier with a full arena audience. let's pause on that for a moment. he is saying he will not participate in the debate he already agreed to sometime ago unless it turns into a maga rally with fox moderators. got it. for her part, harris responded by saying, "it's interesting how anytime, anyplace becomes one specific time, one specific safe space. i will be there on september 10th like he agreed to, i hope

to see him there." guys, all of this is what it looks like when one candidate has the momentum and the other has no idea what to do about it and it is driving him a little crazy. here is the thing, kamala harris is going to continue to own the spotlight for a while here. her vp tech is coming literally any moment, she will hold rallies with her running mate all across battleground states. a couple weeks later will be the democratic convention, and donald trump is going to hate every second of that. you know why? because he loves attention. and he will get more and more outrageous and unhinged as a result. we are likely to see more ugly, racist attacks like the one we saw from trump this week in chicago when he questioned the vice president's racial identity. the good news is she seems ready to respond to that one, too. >> it was the same old show. the divisiveness and the disrespect. and let me just say, the american people deserve better.

the american people deserve better. >> [ cheers and applause ] >> the american people deserve a leader who tells the truth, a leader who does not respond with hostility and anger when confronted with the facts. we deserve a leader who understands that our differences do not divide us. they are an essential source of our strength. >> that's a pretty good response to all of it, i think. i mean, to the racist attacks to the unhinged rallies to the games over debates, it is the same old stuff and america deserves better. she doesn't make it entirely about her, she makes it about the people they're both running to represent. not a bad message, if you ask me. james carville is a longtime democratic strategist. reverend al sharpton is a host

of politics nation. these are two of the wisest and most fun people to talk politics with, and they join me now, so thank you both so much. i have been so excited about this conversation. let me start with you, because the debate and donald trump's actions over the last 24 hours are just -- i mean, a little strange, but i am reminding you of when president george h.w. bush was hesitant to debate bill clinton. i'm sure you remember this, clinton supporters to show up at bush rallies in a chicken suit, there are some video footage there. kind of seems like we have another chicken on our hands here. you saw the vice president's response, how do you think she should be handling this? let's first of all, i want to thank reverend al. [ inaudible ] you crushed it. and i think that she should say i will debate him on fox on the night of september 18th, because i happen to know he is going to be in manhattan on the 18th.

and i am sure the judge will give a delay in the execution sentencing to allow him to show up at a debate. so, if you want to have the debate, let's have it on fox and let's have it on september 18th when he is in an ankle bracelet. >> that is quite a visual. i tend to agree that she should just do the fox debate, why not? but reverend al sharpton, what do you think? >> i certainly agree with mr. carville because i think he is right, i think it also will emphasize to the public if she were to make that response that this is a race between a prosecutor and a felon. let's not take off the table. he has a sentencing date. and i think carville is right, we can ask the judge not to reman him, so he can go to the debate, or ask his parole officer, can you attend in the debate? while we take them off the table, this is a convicted felon that is debating a woman

who was the prosecutor in san francisco, and an elected state prosecutor of all the state of california, before she went to the senate and became vice president. >> no question. and i don't think anyone should take that off the table. it is an interesting idea to do it the day of the sentencing. there are a couple questions here, but i agree, i think she is a good debater and could be good no matter what the forum is point i have been dying to ask you guys about the vp. james, let me start with you, because you said, and i agree with this, that the vp pick historically hasn't massively moved the electoral needlepoint i mean, people shouldn't have that expectation, i guess i should say. sometimes it is one point, sometimes two, sometimes nothing. historically, it has been barely above. but there have been reasons that people have picked the running mates. clinton picked gore, two young guys. it is about chemistry, it is also about complementing.

let me start with you, james, who do you think politically it would complement harris the best of people you have seen out there? >> i would be totally satisfied with any of them. what we had was generational and it really made a difference, and i am sorry the jd vance thing hurt trump and trump knows it. [ inaudible ] donald trump is one hit dog and he is barking, and this vance thing has blown up in his face, he is getting scratched like a cat. >> literally a cat. unmarried cat ladies perhaps, i don't even know. but do you have a view, electorally, doesn't matter? she is obviously a strong candidate. is there anything that would help complement her from what you see out there politically? >> maybe a little bit. none of these people would hurt her in the least.

all right, it's just a question, what is the need that she wants to fulfill? and she has earned the right to make that choice herself, and people like reverend al and i, good democrats, we are going to fall in line and salute whoever it is. there is nothing we say here today that is going to swing it one way or the other. i'm ready to salute and get going. that's no question. let me ask you, reverend sharpton, you know her well, you have run for president yourself, you have thought about these types of choices. what do you think? you can name names if you want, but what qualities, what do you think she would be looking for? >> i think she would be looking for someone that agrees with her on the direction of the country, that is not trying to in any way not follow the policies and vision she has outlined. and i think someone that has the chemistry to work with her. a lot of this is about chemistry. and the three or four presidents i have had access to, particularly with president

obama and joe biden, i always observed the chemistry they have with each other in the room. you can have someone that is the best candidate, you can have someone that is aligned with you in terms of policy, but if the chemistry doesn't work, they are not going to be one you want to work within the white house. >> no question. i feel like the trump and vance chemistry might be awkward at this point in time, if i were to guess. reverend sharpton, let me ask you about a couple of events of the last several days. i mean, trump went to nabj, he made some outrageous comments about the vice president. you said people shouldn't be surprised, this is who he is, he has also called her unqualified. he has kind of thrown out a range of offensive things at her. you know trump, too, you have known him for years. what you think is driving this and what you think the vice president should be doing in response? >> well, i think there was some debate about whether the black journalists should have invited

him. i think the real question is, why he accepted. he accepted the invitation to do exactly what he did. he wanted to play this maga base that i will go to a black city, i will beat them into line, i will show them that we are still in charge. he was appealing to a white supremacist base and a very right wing base. and that's what he did, from the first question, he said, you blacks -- he didn't use the term blacks, but he inferred it, didn't even start on time, couldn't get your microphone straight. he wanted to show he wasn't not there to be cordial. i don't know why people thought donald trump was going to go to this forum and tell them to all join hands and sing who shall overcome. that is not donald trump. and i think that vice president harris has responded correctly, clarifying where she needed. first of all, she did not become

-- belatedly talk about her blackness. all of us, i have known her for 30 years, she has always admitted and embraced her blackness. she went to a historical black college, she pledged to a black fraternity, she ran as the first black d.a. in san francisco, black attorney general, black u.s. senator from the state of california, first black vice president. when did donald trump say that she went from saying she was indian to being black? in his own fabricated minds. it is what you try to do it to barack obama. he is not a real american, he is trying to say now she is not really black. all trying to act like disingenuous liars and you can't trust them. and obviously, it is not working for him this time. it didn't work in 2004 and 2008 when he tried it on barack obama when he was outside of the process. >> no question, i remember that

well, old dog, same old tricks and a lot of ways. james, we talked in the past about how the more people who see trump as crazy, the better it is. people are also trying to get to know harris at the same time. there are a lot of good moments for harris coming up, vp pick, campaigning with them, the convention. how do they keep the pressure and attention on trump's crazy? >> [ inaudible ] i am not going to dignify it, but i think he is deteriorating at that rate. he is getting worse. i mean, he has always been terrible, and he is going to do everything he can to keep himself front and center, you know? i mean, [ inaudible ] but there is no chance that vance is not going to stop saying stupid things. that part is coming our way. but he is deteriorating and i don't know how much worse he is

going to get between now and election day. >> we will all be watching. we will be talking about it. james carville, reverend al sharpton, thank you so much, i appreciate you joining me this morning. >> thanks, al. >> coming up, we just got our first look at josh shapiro clapped back at a very weird attack from jd vance. but first, congresswoman elissa slotkin joins me with her reaction to donald trump's kind words for vladimir putin at his rally last night. we are back after a quick break. it's [ music ] eak. it's [ music ] farxiga ca n cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ farxiga ♪

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so, jd vance as spent the last few weeks playing clean up after his childless cat ladies comments revealed how much he hates people who don't have children. but at every attempt of damage control, trump and vance have basically doubled down, claiming that what vance really means is he is just profamily. >> i am profamily point >> it is very family oriented and he thinks family is a great

thing. >> that is what i think brings the most meaning to life, is family. >> he is not against anything, but he loves family. >> so, that's what they say. but as always, you really have to watch what they do. because here is what senator vance has done lately. back in june, he voted against a bill that would have guaranteed access to ivf and made it easier to start a family. that doesn't sound very profamily to me. so, when the senate voted on thursday to extend the child tax credit for american families, jd vance must have been all over it, right? well, let's roll the tape of what he was up to that day. >> all right, my friends. >> all right, should we toast here? >> yes, we need to toast. >> this is the good stuff here, a high caffeine, low calorie. >> and when you're out here, you need a little bit of everything. >> yes, you do. >> that's right, jd vance skipped the boat on the child

tax credit for a photo op with diet mountain dew at the southern border. like i said, watch what they do, not what they say. joining me now is democratic congresswoman elissa slotkin of michigan, she is now candidate for u.s. senate in one of the most closely watched races in the country. it is great to see you, thank you so much for joining me. i want to talk all about your race. it is great to see you. i just played a little bit of jd vance, who is really trying to position himself as a profamily warrior, someone who would really fight for middle- class families in places like michigan. this is why you ran for congress to begin with, you talk about this all the time. obviously, what he is doing is quite the contrary. what you think of his comments in the last couple of weeks as you watch how contradictory his statements versus his actions are? >> i think he is a great cheerleader and representative of what is going on, frankly, in many places across the country with these candidates. we have a pattern, a well-worn

pattern, where people vote a certain way or the sponsor certain bills, they have a pattern of behavior. in this case, let's say it is against ivf. then something breaks onto the scene like the alabama ruling, and all the sudden, no one in alabama can access ivf. the public is upset, people are concerned, it looks bad. and so they say, wait a minute, we are for this, don't worry. in contrast to their record. and then when they have an opportunity to actually make good on those words, to actually vote, as you said, on this ivf bill, that just said across the country, women have access to ivf, families have access to ivf, they refused to do it. this is why we can't be snookered by jd vance or any of these other folks were running who say one thing and do another. actions speak louder than words, it is the same as kindergarten. >> so, i want to come back to michigan, but just given your

background, i want to ask about the prisoner swap we saw this week, such a significant moment. i want you to take a listen to what donald trump said at his rally in atlanta last night. >> by the way, i would like to congratulate vladimir putin for having made yet another great deal. did you see the deal we made? now, look, we want to get people in. we got 59 hostages that never paid anything. >> you could kind of hear a pin drop even at that rally, but just given your background and given all the issues -- how much you have worked on a lot of the issues, i just want to get your reaction to that. >> i mean, look, it just continues this kind of unbelievable record of every possible moment, bowing and sort of deflecting and supporting things that putin as done. i will never understand it. i remember back in 2017, the first time it happened, he was standing up there in a press conference with putin, and instead of believing our own intelligence community on what russia had did during the general election here in 2016, he sort of said, you know, i

believe you, vladimir putin, and not my own intelligence community about what you did and did not do. it is so outside the zone of normal for an american president, democratic or republican. and this one is very personal for michiganders, at the rally last night when he was congratulating vladimir putin, paul whelan is a michigander. six years sitting in a work camp in russia, he is a former marine. we have billboards up here on our highways, welcoming him back home. we do deals sometimes, no one likes to do them, but we do them, and i think it shows that when it comes to like having a president of the united states, the idea of someone who just kowtow's to vladimir putin after all he has done, it is disturbing. it is disturbing. >> very. let's talk about michigan. you are running in a very important senate race, it is a must win senate race. obviously, it is an important race on the presidential level.

vice president harris and her running mate will be visiting detroit on wednesday. her first trip to michigan since president biden announced he will not seek re-election. how is this impacting your race for senate? >> yeah, i mean, it's hard to overstate how it has changed the air in the room. and i knew it the day after the announcement. i was flying back to d.c. for votes in congress, and the plane was deplaning ahead of us, and a bunch of university of michigan students got off, coming back home from d.c., and they all saw me and said congresswoman, did you see the news, this is so exciting, all of our friends are now registering, our friends want to volunteer, we are so excited. so, you knew from that moment that something had changed. and then i have been knocking on doors in detroit and in flint, in the west side of the state in grand rapids, it has just been a complete, palpable

difference in energy and excitement, which can affect every race up and down the ticket. >> no question, politics is supposed to be about good people and excitement and energy and all of it. congresswoman elissa slotkin, thank you so much for joining me, really appreciate it. coming up, we still don't know who kamala harris will choose to be her vp, but governor josh shapiro is on improving he is ready to take on jd vance. we will tell you what you said and talk about it with our friends when we come back. >> [ music ] >> [ music ] let's fly! (inaudible sounds) chief! doug. (inaudible sounds) ooooo ah. (elevator doors opening) (inaudible sounds) i thought you were right behind me. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, ♪ ♪ liberty. ♪ with the freestyle libre 3 system know your glucose levels. no fingersticks needed. all with the world's smallest and thinnest sensor. manage your diabetes with more confidence and lower your a1c. try it for free at freestylelibre.us

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so, we know today is shaping up to be a crucial day in the vice president harris vp steaks, but while we are still waiting to find out who she will choose as her running mate, we did get a nice preview of what a possible matchup would look like between pennsylvania governor josh shapiro and jd vance. listen to when a reporter told him that vance accused him of doing a bad impression of barack obama. >> barack obama was probably our most gifted orator of my time, so it is kind of a weird insult, i guess.

>> [ applause ] >> look, i will say this about jd vance. it is real hard being honest with the american people when you're not being honest with yourself. jd vance is a total phony baloney. he is the most inorganic candidate i think i have ever seen on the national stage. he doesn't know what he believes, and that is why it is impossible for him to articulate a coherent message to the american people. >> sarah longwell joins me now. she knows i am a groupie. she is the executive director for republican voters against trump and publisher of the bulwark. we know the vice president will meet with three of the leading candidates today. the new york times is describing it as a final chemistry test, whatever that means. how do you think governor shapiro would lose the ticket? >> look, part of it is that i

am from pennsylvania, and so, you know how hard it is to get more than 60% of people in pennsylvania to agree on anything? one thing they all agree on is a approve of the job josh shapiro is doing, so in a state that is the tipping point state, that is an enormous windfall of electoral votes, yeah, i have always thought that josh shapiro was the straightforward pick. and look, it would be one thing if he wasn't a particularly good politician, i think what we have seen out of him, both in terms of his record -- when you do focus groups with people from pennsylvania, they will all tell you that a bridge collapsed, part of the highway, and he had it fixed in a couple of days. and they see that as good government, that he has just consistently been somebody that runs straight down the middle of what a pennsylvania voter wants. and somebody who plays really well and pennsylvania has a good shot at playing well in places like michigan and wisconsin, which is still the most straightforward path for

kamala harris. and so, that's what i think he brings to the ticket, he is a great political athlete, and probably brings the most important state. so, unless there chemistry test is a real flop, i would still be bullish on him. >> so, you did talk to some pennsylvania voters, you talked about them in your podcast recently, you did some focus groups, i want to play some of those will talk about it on the other side. >> the thing about shapiro that stands out more for me is that he can't do those things by himself. i mean, the senate in pennsylvania is controlled by republicans, and that is attractive to me, that like these things have been able to be accomplished in a bipartisan way. >> i would really not want to see his political ascendancy tied to kamala harris, to be honest with you. i do think josh shapiro is going to be a future president of the united states. >> i would vote for him just because he seems sincere, i guess, and he seems smart.

i'm not really sure why i think those two things, i just do. that is the strong impression i have gotten and i guess i'm trying to work off of that. >> it is was interesting to hear what voters actually think, which is what this is all about. you were saying earlier that the quality is, as you said, he has in pennsylvania, could play well in other states as well. were there other names that came up or other things that came up in your discussions about him with pennsylvania voters that were surprising to you, that you think were important for people to know? >> i think a lot of the swing voters, people who went from trump in '16 to biden in '20, a lot of them are still sort of center right in orientation, and so, i think what he brings to the ticket is people view him as a moderate, and i think for kamala harris, her biggest liability with these particular types of swing voters is the phrase san francisco progressive. i just can't tell you how deep in the sort of center-right

psyche or even just in the center sort of psyche, the idea of a california progressive is to these voters, it is scary to them. and i know she is doing these ships, but somebody that comes up a lot is tim walz, governor of minnesota. not in the grips, obviously, right now, i would probably argue it is between those two. and i think progressives are more comfortable with him because they think the t-shirt and a hat and the coaching and the hunting, they think he codes right, and that could be true. maybe in the way that fetterman can bring up a different kind of swing voter, more of those obama-track voters, working- class voters, less so than these college-educated suburban types, but i would be nervous about his progressive record. he has a long congressional history, mike josh shapiro, who doesn't have a huge record to pick, tim walz has taken a lot of votes and they are pretty progressive votes, and i think that could be a liability when her biggest liability is that people view her as a san

francisco progressive. i think you would want balance on the ticket. but i can sort of see a case for both of them. i would take shapiro, i think it is the most straightforward way, but if tim walz is as good as we have seen him, he can put some people in play that currently aren't. >> it is so interesting, i was working at the democratic campaign committee went to work for congress, but now the world has learned of him over the last couple weeks. this is a reminder of the democratic kind of big bench. he has gained a lot of fans, as you know, by pushing this weird label that other people have taken on, labeling trump and vance. what do you think, whoever it is, is the best way? the vice presidential candidate is going to have to attack not just trump, but vance. what do you think is the best way to appeal to swing voters from this person, whomever it might be? >> this is where i think both shapiro and tim walz do a good job, they both seem pretty

comfortable in their own skin and they feel authentic. the thing that is killing jd vance is that voters, and i have listened to tons of swing voters since he was picked, and they don't like him at all. they think he seems like a phony. the only things that i know about him are really how he flip-flopped on trump, but also, it's like bides, right? voters can smell and authenticity. and that is what jd vance reeks of to them. and i think that in both shapiro's case and walz's case, their ability to talk to people, to articulate their positions effectively, you seem comfortable in their own skin, to look like they mean what they are saying, that is the kind of thing you just sort of can't put a value on electorally until you see it put into practice, because the voters, that's what they respond to. >> turns out when you are saying what you actually think, it is easier than changing entirely what you think. turns out voters can smell it. sarah longwell, i always love

talking to you, your focus groups are great, your podcast is great, really appreciate you joining me today. >> thanks for having me, good to see you. coming up, a historic prisoner swap and a reminder that lots of very hard disk and lead to one great day. some thoughts about that when we come back. >> [ music ] >> [ music ] seems clear to me. saving cash wins every time. which is why you'll love the wise buys sales event, going on right now at america's best. get two pairs of single-vision glasses for just $69.95, or two pairs of progressives for just $129.95. both offers include a comprehensive eye exam. that's not just a better deal, it's america's best. book an exam online today.

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so, for the people working on those deals three months, if not years of negotiation, moments like the one we saw this week are worth everything. late thursday night, after being released from prison in russia, wall street journal reporter evan gershkovich, and former marine paul whelan were greeted by friends and family, as well as by president biden and vice president harris. you can see the video there. as national security advisor jake sullivan put it, it was an example of one of the good days and diplomacy pickups i spent a lot of time with the families of evan and paul, and most of the time, as you can imagine, those are tough conversations, but not today. today -- excuse me. today was a very good day. >> their safe return was the result of an extraordinary feat of international diplomacy, involving seven countries.

and for nearly two years, this prisoner swap repeatedly stood on the verge of falling apart. but through diplomacy and sheer will and leadership, it didn't. that was thanks to many people, like evan gershkovich's mother, ella, who for years worked tirelessly to see that her son got home. she was so involved with the wall street journal's general counsel referred to her as ella the reporter, and even turn to her for information. by early february, real momentum was building, and it was during that time that german chancellor decided to act against his own interests, by releasing a russian assassin who was in german custody, which for to securing a deal. as he told president biden in a phone call, for you, i will do this. another key moment came on july 21st when president joe biden worked the phone, speaking with the slovenian prime minister to get the deal over the finish line. it was only an hour later that he announced he wouldn't be

seeking re-election. just think about that for a moment but just an hour after securing this prisoner swap, one that had been in the works for years, he relinquished power consult and announced he was not running for re- election. if that doesn't tell you who joe biden is, i don't really know what does. that deal came together not because of threats or chest pounding or praise of an authoritarian, he came together because alliances and cooperation matter. it was a good day because of the hard work of a lot of good people. coming up, bob bauer has served as one of the most influential lawyers in the last three democratic administrations. now he is starting to look at american politics a little differently. bob joins me after a very quick break. >> [ music ] break. >> [ music ] that fights odors . so even after every flush... you know your bathroom smells amazing. ♪ lalalalala ♪ why do couples choose a sleep number smart bed? can it keep me warm when i'm cold? you know your bathroom smells amazing. wait, no, i'm always hot. sleep number does that. save 40% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed. plus free home delivery

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okay, here is how the new york times describes my next guest. for decades, democrats have turned to him as their loyal to reach battles against opposition, reverse a house race recently lost, go to court to cut off republican money flows, find a legal justification for an ethically iffy strategy, mr. bauer was their man. that is quite a description, he is much more than that, i have known him a long time. but now, the super lawyer who served as white house council to barack obama and as personal council to biden's thinking about that view of politics and also what people should know in this moment of politics.

in his new book, he writes this, "a political commitment at its best can be joyous, an inspiration, a recent rise in the morning with a sense of purpose. once a certain uglier form of partisanship takes hold, that sense of purpose can become a dark obsession with an enemy, the other side, and the marshall discipline believed necessary for mortal kombat sucks the joy out of it. certain topics cannot be discussed mustard questions cannot be raised, certain doubts cannot be expressed, because these would sow discord in the ranks when unity is deemed indispensable in vanquishing the enemy and winning becomes everything." joining me now is bob bauer, that is quite a statement. and i love that because you have done so many political campaigns. i want to ask you about this moment we are in because you have been through a lot, i have, too, but not as much is you. president biden, who you know well, made the decision to not seek re-election. vice president harris has quickly come in, the party seems to be coming together, there is a lot of inspiration in their in the last couple of

weeks, as much as it has been full of turmoil. how has it been for you personally? >> i have a lot to still think about. this is an extraordinary year. i was saying before the break, last election year, i remember that was this unexpected was 1988, and not just because of the johnson withdrawal. but i will say this, president biden made the decision he made, not just because he was a candidate reconsidering the candidate, but he made that decision as president of the united states. and he decided that in that capacity, he had to put governing above other considerations. i think that is inspiring, i think that makes a huge difference to how people think their leaders make decisions, and that i have thought about a lot and written in the book, how do people with political responsibilities make decisions about what they do, what they say, and how they act, and what does that mean for our democratic norms of institutions and practices? it is all critical.

>> sometimes when you watch the television shows about politics, you think it is all gross. and it really isn't, it can be joyful, it can be inspirational, as you say. and you write about a politics without ethics, what you mean by that and why is it so damaging? >> a politics without ethics is a politics in which your adversary is now your enemy, not to be defeated, but to be destroyed. that campaign puffery and the exaggerations and rhetorical excess we expect from campaign dialogue degenerate into outright lying and manipulation of voters. elections become elections we have now come to accept, if you win and projects. if you lose, the rule of law doesn't mean anything if he gets in the way of what you want to accomplish. and then public office becomes also an opportunity for private gain, not a responsibility to the people who put you in that role. those are all driving ethical considerations, and in the book, that i try to do is look back honestly at how we have gotten to a point where maybe we have difficulty perceiving and people with public responsibility have difficult

-- at the moment when discharging them would be the most important pinpricks that is such an important thing about politics. you also wrote about your father. i didn't know this you tell about you, having to testify before joseph mccarthy's house on activities. he wrote in the book: my father was an immigrant who spoke with a heavy accent that stayed with him for the rest of his life, and now the question had been raised about whether it was truly american, whether you saw the truth of his adopted country the way real americans did. at one point, my mother picked up the phone and my parents apartment you're an anonymous caller asked whether her husband was a communist. and your father agreed to testify, the hearing went well, what did you ultimately learn from that, and are there flashbacks really in this moment to that period of time? >> certainly in the attempt in our politics of some to win elections or to govern by tweeting some segment of the population as the other, they're not like us, they are different. in my father's case, there wasn't any more dedicated

patriot that i knew, who came to the united states believing that country had saved him and his family. some members of his family did not survive the second world war, and the u.s. represented for him decency and politics. democratic life is rough, for sure, but at the same time, sort of some fundamental respect for institutions that made the difference in how a country governed itself and what control, what agency people thought they had in their own politics. and by the way, he -- in that book, i note that he demanded to be heard when he was smeared by mccarthy, and in that hearing, he put up a vigorous defense of his position. and the senator stepped in to protect him from mccarthy was a hard right republican from north dakota, carl mont, who in that moment, whatever other differences he had with my father politically, and my father was a real democrat through and through, he thought it wasn't right.

he thought that the charges against my father were false, he wanted him to have a hearing and he wanted him to be out of there with his reputation intact. that was an ethical choice that that senator who had no other points of agreement with my father, that was the effort he adopted in the moment. >> bob bauer, author of the unraveling, a really excellent book. it is so rare when people who have been through the height of things as you have been through really reflect, and this is a very reflective book, so thank you for writing it, thank you for being here, thank you for all of your service to our country as well. >> very much appreciate it. >> i have got one more thing to tell you about before we go today, we are back after a very quick break. >> quick break. >> t-mobile connects 100,000 delta airlines employees. powers tractor supply stores nationwide with reliable 5g business internet. and helps red bull revolutionize coverage of live events. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business.

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that doesn't for me today. a quick reminder to grab your tickets to see me and my colleagues at msn live democracy 2024, in brooklyn, new york on saturday, september 7. we will have a lot to talk about and we hope to see you there. we will be back here tomorrow night when we might have a running mate. for now, there is more coming up. democrats got it together remi and. now how long can they keep it.