economy is going to become out of balance. >> i'm just curious as we watch, we're going to take this to the closing bell. could the fed change their mind and make a change sooner? >> they always could, but a lot of people i've talked to today said the fed has very clearly telegraphed that it is heading for a rate cut. the next meeting is in september. they could always have an emergency meeting and cut if they needed to, but that could send a bigger signal to the markets. this is, after all, a 2%, 3% decline in the s&p and dow. it's certainly not like what they saw in japan. so i think the conventional wisdom is the fed will cut rates at the next meeting, but now the debate is will it be 25 points or 50. >> thanks for being with us and explaining that. the bell is closed. the dow closing down more than 1,000 points. we're going to stay on top of

this. that's it for now. "deadline: white house" picks up our coverage right now. >> everyone, happy monday. it's 4:00 in the east. she has raised $200 million. she got 170,000 people to sign up and volunteer. she's drawn massive crowds and breathed new life into the 2024 presidential contest. now comes her first really hard part, the single biggest decision of her presidential campaign, vice president kamala mate.s, her choice of a running it has to be done in an incredibly compressed timeline. it had to be done in a matter of two weeks. there's only 92 days left before election day.

harris has a lot of options to choose from. our six candidates, a slew of popular governors, a swing state senator, a member of the cabinet, a who's who of rising democratic superstars, attesting to the historically deep bench of talent that exists in the one political party that has not become a cult to one man and one man only. here is what we know. vice president harris met with mark kelly, minnesota governor tim walz and josh shapiro on sunday at her residence. "the new york times" quotes the in-person meeting described as a chemistry test is part of the search and she will put considerable stock in. aides and associates have said she often prioritizes personal rapport with her staff and advisers. harris is expected to announce her running mate tomorrow and

they will kick off a swing state tour meant to introduce her and her vice president as a ticket to the voters. the democratic party welcome to take on donald trump, an autocrat, convicted felon, mad over the size of the crowds that democratic nominee kamala harris has been drawing. the president will hit six swing dates over five days, one of the heaviest weeks of campaign-related travel in the election. it is a huge contrast to her opponent. the 78-year-old ex-president, who has covered ten states in five weeks and has one event on his calendar this week. vice president kamala harris set to pick her vice president this week. joining us, professor of

princeton university, eddie glaad is here, columnist charlie sykes is past, and claire mccaskill is here. you've got some great reporting about how the vice president is approaching this task, of basically replacing herself on the ticket. tell us what you know. >> from my reporting, the vice president is looking at making this decision leaning in on, of course, both the chemistry and personal rapport she is going to have with these contenders, but also their governing experience. she wants someone with executive governing experience, but she's going to have to navigate the unprecedented, we use that word a lot, but an unprecedented situation, in that they have to

get up and running really quickly. i'm told based on internal polling, she wants someone who can appeal to people that president biden would have appealed to. they're leaning into middle-aged white men. she wants someone who is going to put someone at ease, who might be cautious about voting for harris, both because of her policy issues, but of the fact she's a black and south asian woman. i was also told she wants someone who is going to be a bulldog and go toe-to-toe with republicans if they attack her, issues on her job when she was dealing with the root causes of my innovation, what they call the border, and attacking her record as a prosecutor and race and attacking her identity. also, because she's going to be the first woman in that seat, i was told she doesn't want someone who is going to

undermine her. she wants someone who will be comfortable taking the lead from a woman and someone who is not going to go behind her back and be talking about her if she were to become president because she got the nomination in an unorthodox way and that person shouldn't be seen as running for 2028 behind her back. >> so with all your expertise and knowledge, what is your sense of what all of that detailed reporting of how she's approaching it, does it argue for any one or group of these finalists ahead of any other? >> it's a great question, honestly, in talking to sources, it's hard for me to say who would have the up or down. i've always been told over and over again the list is a little longer than we had and there could be some doctor horse we don't know about. it would be very surprising to me if it wasn't one of the people i've listed and we've listed as a network, shapiro and

kelly and walz and the governors we've been talking about. it's hard to know because i wasn't there in those in-person meetings. you can see why mark kelly is on the list, pete buttigieg. you have tim walz, someone who debuted the sort of language that the campaign has been using talking about former president trump and j.d. vance as weird and creepy. you have these people where they look like this person could be interesting. shapiro is seen as a democratic star. there are a lot of progressive groups saying negative things about him. we know at least for a fact that we will be finding out by tomorrow the plan is to have an official announcement tomorrow. if my reporting or other people's reporting gets close, maybe we'll get it sooner. >> you know where i am for the

next two hours. wave your arms and the airwaves are yours. you have a busy 24 hours ahead of you. thank you so much. let me show you some of what we're talking about, this incredible sort of bench of talent. and, again, these are just three of the folks reported to be under consideration. >> these are weird people on the other side. they want to take books away, be in your exam room. that's what it comes down to. don't sugar coat this. these are weird ideas. these guys are just weird. they're running for women haters club. that's not what people are interested in. >> it's just so terrifying about these guys, like vance and trump. they've got their vision of what a family looks like and i'll defend them to have that. just don't tell me what my family looks like.

i keep talking about the golden rule about small towns is mind your own business, stay out of our business. it gets worse than that, the policies they put in place that undermine families. >> he said people who don't have children -- this is a quote -- have no physical commitment to the future of this country. >> wow. >> and i just think about how, like, no physical commitment to the future, when i was deployed to afghanistan, i didn't have kids back then. but i will tell you, especially when there was a rocket attack going on, my commitment to this country felt pretty physical. >> governor, j.d. vance just said this about you, and these are his words, he compared you to a really bad impression of barack obama. what is your response to that? >> is that what he said? barack obama was probably our most gifted orator of my time,

so that's a weird insult, i guess. i'll say this about j.d. vance, it is real hard being honest with the american people when you're not being honest with yourself. j.d. vance is a total phony baloney. he is the most inorganic candidate i think i have ever seen on the national stage. he doesn't know what he believes. and that is why it is impossible for him to articulate a coherent message to the american people. because he doesn't believe it. >> so, claire, what i'm going to say might not be popular or in my interest, everyone on this list is in a next level league from the person that the top and the number two spot on the republican side. i mean, the harris candidacy is just brimming with enthusiasm

and energy and a vivaciousness that the democrats didn't even expect and the republicans certainly didn't. and everyone on this list is so solid and so talented that i wonder, i mean, sometimes i'm anxious and i'm checking my phone to see if the news has leaked yet. and sometimes i'm, like, they're all great. how are you waiting for this news? >> well, first, i've got to give a shout-out to my friend charlie sykes. i spit coffee over the weekend when i saw how he referred to trump, that trump is in the fat elvis stage of his career. i mean, i love that. i love that. so i didn't want to go any further in this program without giving love to my fellow pundit, charlie sykes, for the fat elvis. and, by the way, fat elvis is worried and so is the weirdo he picked as his running mate. this field is pretty damn good.

she really isn't going to get in trouble with any of these selections. having said that, i think she's going to want somebody that she can feel a personal connection to, that she feels comfortable with. and we have no way of knowing who that is, because we're not in the room when they visit and talk and when she asks questions and he asks her questions. so i love tim walz because he's plain spoken and relatable. i think shapiro does do something really important in pennsylvania. obviously pete buttigieg is one of the most talented communicators in the political world right now. they're all very good. i think what's really funny is how people are trying to stir up there's some brouhaha and we're all fighting over the vice president should be. in their dreams. we're not fighting. it's going to be fine no matter who she picks. let's go. >> charlie, the internet is not

the real world. democrats are not at war with each other over the selection. the same way we don't lead this program with polls and we're not going to game out what she gets with one or the other, but i do in this last news cycle before we know who she picks, i want to stick with this idea of this massive bench as another accomplishment of president joe biden's. this is when you are for bridges and roads and not for injecting bleach. this is what happens to your party. i know the republican party is sort of post inflection point, but i do wonder what happened to all the people who used to care about developing a bench on the other side. >> i actually think this is one of the most interesting story lines of the last few years, the republican party has been purging its bench.

they have been primarying or ex compiling many, and then we look up in 2024 and see which party has a deep bench. and the governorship and the senate races. and i agree with senator mccaskill about the fact the party will come together. it is an impressive group. i have to admit that i'm a huge pete buttigieg fan. i think he's the most gifted politician that i can recall seeing in the last 20 or 30 years. josh shapiro seems like he has been made for this electoral map. he has won three elections in the pivotal state of pennsylvania since 2016, he was elected governor by 15 points. he has a 61% approval rating in an absolute must-win state. i have no doubt that everybody is going to come together. i have to admit i'm a little bit troubled by some of the vicious attacks on josh shapiro,

especially involving israel. i do think that might leave some scars. i think it makes the decision a little more complicated. but he would be an impressive partner, as would mark kelly in another swing state, arizona. >> you know, eddie, when this whole sort of process was under way and president joe biden made the decision to step off the ticket, my first thought was this is what a healthy body does, right? a healthy organism can take in information from other party leaders, nancy pelosi or chuck schumer, the history books will tell the full story, perhaps his family, his own conscience, and i feel like this surge is a sign of a healthy body, political party, that is not sort of slashing and burning one another. the other thing i will say, and

no one has pointed this out, but the fact that nothing has leaked is a sign of deep respect for the candidate herself and her process. what do you make of this -- this is probably the last time we'll all be together before we know who the vp pick is. >> well, nicolle, i think you're right that it shows that the democratic party is healthy, vibrant, but there's still some serious fissures. i think the bench the deep, it's obvious the bench is deep. but i'm worried about constituencies, things that have been made about shapiro and gaza that charlie has mentioned. how can i put this? i think the principle here should be, do no harm, do no harm to the enthusiasm, do no harm to the young folk who are ready and willing and invested,

do no harm to the base. maybe i'm in different circles than claire and charlie, but i think that involves not billboarding the politics as usual in the pick, if that makes sense. that's just my anxiety, nicolle. everything is good, everything good. but i'm still anxious. >> this is part of a healthy body. if you're raising a kid, you have to start the language of anxiety. some stress is healthy and you're constantly looking to see when it's too much. i think the anxiety is healthy. it's about being in touch with your base, and not brainwashing them and telling them to believe what they say and not what they hear. i think it comes back to what we're going to learn about vice president kamala harris. you can argue it either way. she has an opportunity to showcase her strong leader credentials, which are dripping off her. she's the first politician to

say, what trump would do, yes, it's scary, but basically she's running against the buffoon, and she's not mocking his supporters. she's mocking his cowardice, why isn't he debating? because she's afraid to say it to my face. he's going after her identity. she hasn't given speeches, she has really displayed her strength as a leader and a politician. and i think to eddie's point, there are decisions that might reflect, i know this is out there, but this is who i felt most comfortable with, and there are decisions that would do a different very good thing, which is to say, we've only got 92 days, and if you're explaining, you're losing. how do you think she balances those two? >> i honestly don't think she's going to have to do a whole lot of balancing. i just feel like whoever is selected is going to shine

immediately. i think these are all really, really effective communicators. and they are used to communicating to people who don't necessarily belong to their party. tim walz is probably in the bluest state of any of the candidates that are being seriously considered. but these folks are from places where you've got to find people to agree with you that don't necessarily call them a democrat. and that's what she needs right now. remember, what's happening right now is the party is consolidating our base. she is getting back to comfortable numbers with traditional democratic voters because they see her as exciting and competent and a leader and as such a wonderful contrast to fat elvis, they can't help themselves. she still needs another 2% in these battleground states. and that 2% are formerly double

haters, they're people who voted for both democrats and republicans. what she's got to make sure she does is communicate to them that i'm not an extremist. if she does that, i think any of these candidates will convey that. i think she's going to be in a really good position in pennsylvania, wisconsin and michigan, and even in places like georgia, arizona, nevada, and maybe even north carolina. >> claire, that is the moment we're in. so much disinformation has flooded through the electorate and in the swing states. when you look at the refusal to certify, which seems to be trump's backup plan to winning, there's always a backup plan to winning, the margins are really important. no one goes anywhere. when we come back, more on why donald trump is afraid to, as we said, say it to her face, wanting to hold a debate in the safe spaces of fox news. we'll show you how kamala heirs

-- harris is responding to that and our dear friend will join our conversation on why he's fighting hard about a top campaign issue and why he's all in for vice president harris. later, republicans for kamala harris sending the hip hypocrisy alarm bells. we'll join you after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. en at ty vw summer sales event. 2024 volkswagen models cost less to maintain than honda. get 0.9% apr financing or a $3500 customer bonus on a new 2024 atlas or atlas cross sport.

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[metal creaking] [camera zooming] ♪ [window slamming] woman: [gasps] [dog barking] ♪ woman: [screams] ♪ [explosion] [explosion] ♪ [lock clicks shut] i think kamala harris has de-risked her finalist list.

there's no mistake. there's no chance of her doing a j.d. vance selection and doing harm with the ticket. i think the blocking and tackling simple math is pennsylvania. i think republicans would be scared to see a governor of pennsylvania almost instantly flip that state to being a loss and being a win for the democrats. i think you could probably get michigan to come along and other states. i think it creates momentum. at the end of the day, she doesn't have a liability on her hands with whoever she picks. >> charlie and claire, i was off a couple days last week. i had this moment where i was like, did he really pick j.d. vance? it came back into focus. i can't believe he really picked j.d. vance. as a former campaign person, i absolutely feel the way eddie does, worried, anxious. if you are a former republican and you're looking at the state of the race, where she stands, the list of people she's

choosing from, de-risk is a good -- you still have to execute and you still have to perform. and david plouffe joined the harris campaign while i was away, which is a really good sign. not about david playoff, no disrespect, but about vice president harris, that she's bringing people in. but this idea that she's de-risked her campaign, where on the other hand you have donald trump who won't take the risk of attending a debate he already committed to. he's sort of choking on risk and exposure and deciding not to do things because the risk of confronting her is so grave from where he stands. how does he sell that cowardice to his base? >> well, he's flailing, he's fumbling, because this race has been reset. so there are two interesting things there. number one, kamala harris has a great bench and she's obviously going through a rigorous vetting

process. obviously donald trump did not go through that vetting process and said he listened to don jr. who said d.j. vance would be great. the prime directive is do more harm and j.d. vance is the most unpopular, toxic drag on the ticket. so many republicans have having buyer's remorse. this issue is crucial because donald trump wanted to frame this entire choice as strength versus weakness, manliness versus cowardice. and yet who is the brave sir donald who is running away from debating? he is afraid of getting on a stage with a woman. and i think this will remind people that donald trump has a very long history of having trouble with strong women, particularly women of color. this is like his worst

nightmare. so it's going to be interesting to see how he finesses this. he ran away from the abc debate. he's proposing the safe spaces of fox news. i think people have seen through that. they understand what he's doing, that he does not want to get on the stage with an experienced prosecutor. he thought all year long it was going to be him and joe biden and new it's a new world and he's not ready for it. >> eddie, i don't believe in the ageism that the trump campaign is sort of structured around exploiting. and neither do i believe in sort of pushing the joe rogan-esque levers of toxic masculinity. but trump does. and trump has primed his base, again, to not believe what they see, these are quotes, not believe what they hear, only believe him. what they've heard from him for all these years is that the only world leaders worth their salt, not the angela merkels, or

macrons, the vladimir putins, they're strong, they kill their opponents. that's how trump has primed his base. he has primed them to believe in his vigor. he wanted to pull off his shirt to reveal superman. in terms of what he has put into the bloodstream of his own base of support, it is all the colors and sounds and smells of virility, of the sustainability of his cowardice to debate vice president kamala harris, a previously confirmed debate. >> it's the danger of the revelation that it's all an illusion, that he's the wizard of oz, and that behind the curtains a small little man. so part of what we do know and what the national association of black journalist revealed, donald trump is most comfortable when he's on his home court, when he's with his audience, who

is adoring, whose adoration will allow him to speak of 91 minutes. 90 minutes of rambling, how could you do that? he's strong in that space. let him go away and play an away game where the audience are not on his side. you see that he shrivels and he has insult, grievance and the like. the wizard of oz, the different version of the wizard of oz, it was richard pryor who was afraid, and that's what we see, an afraid little man. >> claire, i want to make sure that this description of a shriveled political persona is only relevant because of the efforts to puff himself up that we all had to cover every news

cycle. the attacks on mika brzezinski, all the misogyny and racism, and all of the bullying, and all of the groping of the world's most brutal dictators, it was all about puffery. and to see him, to quote eddie, shrivel up in the face of vice president kamala harris is almost confoundingly simple. it makes me wonder if he could have been maybe confronted at an earlier point. >> yeah, and she's got some room to grow in this category. the only category where he has any significant lead on her is perception of strength. and he is undermining that with every step he takes toward hiding under his desk instead of debating. and she is going to, hey, say it to my face, and other other really comfortable attacks on him where she is letting it and fly, and clearly does not see

any risk in going after him. i think that's going to be a growth area for her and her campaign. and speaking of de-risking, i don't understand trump in this regard. i think he really believes this he man think, like i need to get all the white men on my side and i'll be president again. he actually live streamed with a guy today from mar-a-lago who is one of his shticks on line is after a guest gets up from the chair that he's been interviewing, he goes over and sniffs their seat. now, i don't know who on the campaign thought it was a good idea for him to have this guy at mar-a-lago, and the guy gives him a rolex watch and a tesla. i know we're all tired of the weird thing, but this is wacko. this is wacko stuff for a guy who wants to be the leader of the free world.

and i don't understand what these supposed good campaign operatives that are running his show, are they just sitting in the corner sucking their thumbs. >> i want to give you a quick last word on this. i think it's time to examine our own mythologies. there's a mythology because the trump campaign was better than when paul manafort and jared kushner and lewandowski ran it. i think we have to test our assumptions. >> it's always about the candidate, stupid. it's always about the candidate. whatever campaign you put together, it's still donald trump, and donald trump is going to do his thing. this is the problem, there's no new trump, no changed trump. and the fat elvis part of him is that he's going back to his old play list, figuring i'm going to go back to the things that worked for me a decade ago and

they're not landing anymore. it's just not working. it's not up to his campaign to figure out what to do because they're stuck with donald trump. >> yeah. all of that. charlie sykes, thank you so much. i always feel so bad about elvis. i love the line, but i'm always like, i'm being unfair to elvis. thank you for starting us off. eddie and claire, stick around longer. up next, a coalition of parents no one would ever want to be a part of willingly, coming together to reduce the tragedy and epidemic of gun violence in america. why they say vice president kamala harris is the only choice in november. our dear friend, craig guttenberg, joins us next. ♪♪ our cleaning pad has hundreds of scrubbing strips that absorb and lock dirt away,

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(laughing) look around you. you deserve to know. as we navigate a future unknown. i'm glad i found stability amidst it all. gold. standing the test of time. hard fought, hard won, fundamental freedoms and rights. the freedom to vote, the freedom to be safe from gun violence, the freedom to live without fear of bigotry and hate. >> we believe in the freedom to live safe from gun violence. we'll finally pass universal background checks, red flag laws, and an assault weapons ban. >> so we want to ban assault weapons and they want to ban

books. can you imagine? >> when you put it that way. vice president kamala harris making it abundantly clear that gun safety is a central pillar to her presidential campaign. it's a fight she's no stranger to, as california's attorney general, harris led the effort to pass a red flag law at the time california has only the third state to do that. as a senator, she co-sponsored legislation to regulate dangerous firearms. as vice president, she has been a leader for gun safety in the biden administration, helping to pass the most comprehensive gun safety legislation in almost 30 years. she was tapped to oversee the first ever white house office of gun violence prevention. let's bring in our friend, gun safety advocate, craig guttenberg, hosting a zoom tomorrow. how are you feeling about the state of our politics and the state of this presidential

contest, my friend? >> hopeful, optimistic, excited. the moment is upon us. we all better vote. listen, last week when i saw others organizing these incredible online events, i decided we ought to do one like this and we ought to show our support for what will soon be president harris, because she has supported people like me and all the victims of gun violence across the country. you know, i want people to know just how strong of a leader she has been on this. and i want to just quickly tell you a story going back to march. because as i think you may know, nicolle, a few months ago, we were bringing people through the school where my daughter was killed. and we were doing it to educate them. and that school was still an untouched crime scene. it still had the blood, the dna,

shards of glass, coursework opened on desk as if kids had just walked away from them. and i asked vice president harris to walk through the school with me, to walk through that building. and i told her exactly what she would see. and she said yes. and over the months of planning, i reiterated time after time again what she would see, because i wanted to give her an out, to be quite honest. because it's unlike anything else you'll ever walk through. she didn't take the out. she came. she brought the entire office of gun violence prevention team with her. she believes as strongly as anyone can that we must reduce gun violence in america, and so for those of us across america, not just those of us who have been impacted, but those of us who want to be free from gun violence, join us for the zoom

tomorrow night. let's show our support for vice president harris and future vp. >> all the conversations we've had, every time you talk about parkland and being there, it brings me to tears. i have some of her comments from after walking through with you, and let me play some of that for you. >> sure. >> the families so rightly are so -- have been so injured by this. those injuries that in acts of violence like this are seen, obvious, and also invisible. the trauma that results from this kind of violence, that takes place every day in

america, and in a profound number took place here six years ago, trauma that, for the most part, though they will try to mitigate the pain, will never completely be healed. and we must be willing to have the courage to say that on every level, whether you talk about changing laws or changing practices and protocols, that we must do better. >> so she's getting into this language of trauma, and you and i have talked a lot about sort of the circles of trauma, right? there's the family, which is most traumatized. there are the survivors, who will never be the same. and then there's every kid in america who has active shooter drills from the time they're 3 years old when they're told to hide under their desk, curtains on the doors are lowered and

they're told to be very quiet when they're 3 years old. they do that until they graduate high school, and then they have the same protocols drilled into their heads as college students. and i think every year half a dozen colleges -- i mean, this is a traumatized generation for growing up with active shooter drills every year from the age of 3 on. talk about the political significance of the zoom you're convening tomorrow night. >> you know, nicolle, one of the people on the zoom tomorrow night is a senior in high school. she was one of those little children in the sandy hook shooting. i'm actually having her close out the zoom tomorrow night. we're going to have entertainers, politicians, we're going to have people who are

well known. i'm having this student close out the zoom meeting tomorrow night because of exactly what you just said. i want america to hear from this amazing teenager what it's been like to grow up since sandy hook. i've been affected by sandy hook directly. and it doesn't have to be this way. listen, i am incredibly proud of the fact that over the past year there has been a dramatic drop in violent crime. it just proves that everything we know works, okay, has been working. but there's so much more we need to do. over my shoulder, that's my beautiful daughter, she's constantly pushing me forward. and i do everything i do not because i hope -- i'm not going to get to spend another minute with her, but i think of every

dad and every parent who continues to go to dance, or continues to watch a child play hockey or football or baseball or gymnastics, who i'll never know, because of the work we did. because teenagers like this person who will be on the zoom tomorrow night from sandy hook, are using their voice to say, help us stop this. and because of leaders like president biden, who is heroic to me, and vice president harris, who will be our next president if we vote, i want to say it again, if we vote, we can do more to make sure those we love can go to school freely, can go shopping freely, can worship freely, can play on a neighborhood park freely. it doesn't have to be the way it is now. >> you have to promise me, fred, that you'll come back later this

week and let me know how this call went. i imagine it's going to be something powerful and special. >> i would be honored to. thank you. >> it's a date. thank you so much for spending time with us. up next for us, one trump ally stepping right up to defend ex-president donald trump's insane remarks about vice president kamala harris' race and identity, calling it a nothing burger story, yet attacking her three times. we'll show you one news anchor who seems to have had enough with the lies and smears coming from trump's side. that's next. one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food,

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you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire and he just repeated the slur again. if it doesn't matter why do you keep questioning her identity? she's always identified as a black woman. she's biracial. she has a jam kane father and indian mother. she's always identified as both. why are you questioning that? >> well, george, first of all, this is something that's actually a conversation throughout social media right now. there are a lot of people who are trying to figure this out. but again, that's a side issue. not the main issue. the main issue -- >> sir, one second. you just did it again. >> of the united states -- >> why do you insist on questioning her racial identity? >> do you want to talk or do you want me to talk? >> i want you to answer my question. >> george, george, now that you're done yelling at me, let

me answer. >> so this is what they do, right? well, it's all over social media. people are saying. no, they're not. you're saying it. as ronald reagan used to say, if you're explaining you're losing. that was florida republican congressman byron donalds. not even trying to defend or clean up the ex-president's gross and racist remarks about his general election opponent, vice president kamala harris's race ethnicity. back with eddie and claire. i'm going to stick with your sort of shriveling and wizard of oz analogy. what george did was sort of stick a pin in the balloon of the tactic of well, i'm just raising it because people are saying it. no, they're not. no, they're not. one guy said it. the biggest lunatics in the far right fringe tweeted further lies about it. and i wonder if this moment has again met its match in the

public's sort of evolved -- i don't even know if evolved is the right word. but understanding of the factic. what do you think? >> well, i think we're -- we might be there, nicolle. i'm not sure yet. i mean, i do know that we don't need -- kamala harris doesn't need to give a philadelphia speech like obama did. right? i do know we're beyond the idea we're in a post-racial moment. see, this is the difference. this is not 2008. we've been there. we've done that. we saw what the -- we saw what the nation did in response to it. and so we're not going to be naive about this stuff. and there's a sense in which what byron donald is doing or what trump is doing is that they're appealing to the base of the republican party, of the maga base, trying to exploit their grievances, right? and they're appealing to -- they're trying to in ways appeal to folks who don't believe she is black. these are folks who believe you have to be of a certain kind -- or have a certain kind of lineage so maybe they can peel

off something. and i think that's just wrong. and what makes this so hard for me, every time frank guttenberg talks by heart cracks open. and we have to transition from that to this. right? and these are the extremists. these are the folk who hold noxious views. and 2% of people that senator mccaskill mentioned or talked about, they are actually contemplating these people? that gets at my gut, nicolle. i don't get it. i don't understand it. maybe i do and i'm not being honest. but it just bothers me to my core if that makes sense. >> yeah. and i think we have to be -- i think we have to be unafraid, right? and really, really honest. and i think fred cracks my heart open too. i cannot talk to him without crying because of his activism, because of his choices.

right? to turn to activism to honor his daughter. but my favorite thing that fred said, claire, is that we know these changes in laws and policies work. we've watched crime down because of policy changes. and i feel like some of what vice president harris has done is unstick us. i've sent texts to friends along the lines of it feels safe to hope, right? it feels safe to be optimistic that as a political figure vice president kamala harris is on to something in how to deal with trump, how to pop some of this artifice, how to put the tactics on the table along with the ugliness on the inside. the ugliness on the inside is racism. and there's a lot of it in our country. and not all republican voters are racist. not by a long mile. but a lot of the racists seem attractsed to donald trump over vice president kamala harris. and i wonder what you think of

that display of all that on george's show yesterday, claire. >> well, i think first of all george did a great job. secondly, i think it's very important to realize that kamala harris is not afraid to say out loud that she wants to ban assault weapons. she is not afraid to say we need universal background checks, universal federal red flag laws. this is what most of america wants. this is what most of america wants. and once again, she has derisk. you have on one side them basically trying to make an issue over the fact that kamala harris is biracial. and on the other hand you've got kamala harris saying hey, you know, there was an ar-15 that just tried to kill trump, shouldn't we do something about that. and that's going to appeal to way more americans than the racist tropes about whether she identifies as indian american or

as a black american. she is both. and she embraces them with joy. and she's going to do that in this campaign. it's going to make america feel good inside. >> claire mccaskill, eddie glaude, talking to you guys is always a perfect way to start the week and keep it real. thank you so much for doing that for us and spending time with us today. when we come back, the conservative argument for voting for a democrat, for this democrat, vice president kamala harris for president. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. don't go anywhere. starts aftery short break. don't go anywhere. is here, boy. and they got two flavors: roasted garlic and new cajun butter. when you gotta have seafood, you gotta have red lobster. they get it. they know how it works. and most importantly, it works for them. i don't have any anxiety about money anymore. i don't have to worry about a mortgage payment every month. it allowed me to live in my home and not have to make payments.

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what is your conservative argument for voting for a democratic president? >> oh, it's really easy. i believe in democracy. i mean, democracy was -- i was there on january 6th. i had to live through that. standing for the constitution, standing for democracy, there is nothing more conservative than that. and donald trump is the exact opposite of that. so for me kamala harris is going to defend that democracy and i think every republican that takes their views, viewpoint seriously, old school republican, not whatever this new thing is, should be voting the same way. >> there you have it. hi again, everybody. 5:00 in the east. there is nothing, nothing more conservative than standing up for democracy, that guiding principle is what has led so far to a dozen republicans, former congressman adam kinzinger, who you saw right there, among them, to formally and forcefully endorse vice president kamala harris over the weekend. their endorsements were part of the launch of republicans for

harris, a campaign within the harris campaign designed to mobilize trusted gop voices to speak to their friends and family and former supporters perhaps about voting for her. and to engage with trump's skeptical republican voters in swing states. the endorsers include former trump white house officials stephanie grisham and olivia troye, former republican secretaries chuck hagel and ray lahood, former republican governors, former republican lieutenant governors, and former republican members of congress. people like denver riggleman, who was also a senior staff member on the january 6th select committee. in his endorsement denver riggleman stressed of the danger of the gop's nominee, "i've seen with my own eyes how trump's thirst for power and revenge and retribution is his real motivation, and that is why i cannot stand by while he tries to destroy our country." that thirst for power is what tested -- is what was tested by

senior adviser at the brennan center for justice burton gelman. he ran tabletop exempts over the summer to see how strong our democracy would be in the face i of a leader like trump trying to tear it down. he writes this, "the role plague exercises were designed to test how well checks and balances broadly understood might restrain a president from abusing his power. the results were not encouraging. the games demonstrated repeatedly that an authoritarian in control of the executive branch with little concern for legal limits holds a structural advantage over any lawful effort to restrain him." his message, "the pro-democracy coalition cannot afford to splinter. in 2017 with no advance warning opposition to trump's authoritarian policies coalesced quickly. if ahead of 2025 rule of law advocates take time to prepare, the coalition could work even more closely for the common

defense." gelman's is an urgent marining as trump has already broadcast his efforts to undermine our election systems including this weekend's shout out to georgia state election board members who are trying to change the state's election rules. >> i don't know if you've heard, but the georgia state election board is in a very positive way -- this is a very positive thing, marjorie. they're on fire. they're doing a great job. three members. janice johnson. rick jeffries. and janelle king. three people are all pitbulls fighting for honesty, transparency and victory. they are fighting. >> you've got to ask at this point, fighting for what? no one's voted there and georgia was first to pass a election integrity law. it's where we start the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. brennan center for justice

senior adviser, the aforementioned barton gelman is here. also joining us, professor of history at nyu ruth ben ghiat. and media matters president andrea carosone is with us. i like to remind everyone you wrote the first sort of lights are flashing red article ahead of the election, coming as close as any human being to predicting the mayhem that trump would sow ahead of his defeat. and i wonder if you can just with sort of that lens around it tell us how you see this effort to cede local election boards with election deniers who trump is already shouting out from the podium. >> yeah, well, that was part of trump's 2020 plan that i wrote about in september before that election. it sort of reminds you of the old stalinist expression that it doesn't matter who votes for

you, what matters is who counts the vote. and the election board in georgia is trying to give itself the power not to certify the results even after they are counted, counted again, audited and so forth. they can still have the discretion to decide that the vote count is wrong and that the state's electors should be awarded to the losing candidate. it's just profoundly anti-democratic. and my colleagues at the brennan center are doing a lot of good work to try to protect the integrity of the vote. >> tell me what that looks like. and tell me if you and your colleagues feel like we're paying adequate attention to this part of it. i don't even want to call it a campaign. it's sort of a framework to cheat, to rig the results.

>> yeah, it's actually kind of the anti-campaign. it's the antidote to voters who vote for your opponent is to disqualify them. every one of your voters because you've talked about this so many times is familiar with the many ways of trying to suppress the vote. part of it is purging them from the voter rolls so they don't get to vote to begin with. and then there's challenging them at the polls. trying to object to letting them vote at the polls. and the ultimate thing is to pretend they haven't voted as they have. it's to mess around with the count. and i don't know what to say. i mean, democracy depends on

certain basic things like when you count the votes you go sort of -- start from 1 and keep increments and let arithmetic do the job. you just can't give people discretion to ignore the arithmetic. >> and i want to sort of put this under the klieg lights because that's exactly what trump is doing. let me show you, ruth, what he's had to say about not needing to do what bart just said, not needing votes. >> my instruction, we don't need the needs. i have so many votes. >> we don't need votes. >> i tell my people we don't need any votes. we've got all the votes we need. >> we don't need votes. we've got more votes than anybody's ever had. >> you don't have to vote. don't worry about voting. we've got plenty of votes. >> so ruth, my question isn't what's he saying, what's he doing. my question is what do the rest of us do who want what bart just talked about, to continue to

live in a democracy? >> i think it's all the more important that we get a huge turnout to vote because, you know, when trump was talking about not needing to vote, what strikes me often as his message to christians is he's presenting voting as a burden that he will be only too happy to relieve them of. and that's how dictators talk. what you started with where republicans are speaking out in favor of harris is so important because this is not an election about policy. this is a referendum on what political system we're going to have. is it going to be autocracy or democracy? and & it's really striking that trump is coming out as he always has but much more emphatically about what side he's on. and those who talk about like they absorb his messages against the radical left inside america as the internal enemy, we could come to them if we want to talk

to republicans and say you know, trump is not only praising far right leaders like putin and orban, he's praising communist dictators like xi jinping for ruling with a, quote, iron fist and most recently maduro in venezuela, who he comes out, and so it's not even about right or left. what trump cares about is that people have deprived -- these leaders have deprived their people of freedom and they've maneuvered themselves into positions of absolute power. that's what he wants. so whether it's right or left no longer matters to him. it's all about autocracy. >> you know, and i guess, angela, airing it is another piece of his weakness. i mean, eddie glaude in the last hour described him as a political figure who's shriveling under the sharp prosecution of a former prosecutor as his current opponent in kamala harris. and i wonder if these tactics start to look less appealing to part of his -- the coalition at

least he thinks he can rely on in november. i want to show you how my colleague rachel maddow describes these tactics. >> telling voters do not bother to vote for me, it doesn't matter if you do, i don't need your votes, that is a thing that should prick up your ears. because what that means is that he doesn't think he needs to win the vote to win the election. he doesn't think he needs to win the election in order to take power. he thinks something other than votes is going to determine whether or not he gets back in the white house. the republicans are counting on the election results not being certified. thereby creating chaos in washington around the results. just like 2020, right? just like january 6th, 2021. except this time with no mike pence in the way and with republican officials already in place in multiple states saying yeah, you may not get any sort of official vote.

>> so rachel maddow does a lot of really important things on her program. that's why it is the rachel maddow show. this warning i think we could play that every single day and it wouldn't be enough amplification of this warning. not just to the democrats but to the country. this is the trump plan. >> yeah, and there's a lot happening that reinforces that assessment that rachel maddow gave. like so for example, in georgia one of the biggest stories that was being pushed over the last five days not just in regular media you about even places online, even by elon musk himself, was one of these sort of project veritas-like sort of sting operations which did -- one of their fake investigations in georgia that claims that at least 14% of non-citizens are voting, which would amount to about 40,000 votes, which way less votes than would have turned the election for trump in the last cycle. that's happening all across the country. one is that they're feeding and putting fuel on this fire, that

the vote is going to be stolen in some way, that there are all these examples and all these instances of it. so they're laying the scaffolding for the misinformation and for the narrative that the election was stolen. last cycle it was sort of a thing that came together. this time it's an actual backup plan. they're putting in place not just the players and the operatives, as you noted, but then they're also building the narrative and what's scary is that the antidote, one of the important antidotes to it, which would be other republican leaders have actually all bought into it. so the by and large republican orthodoxy now is of course we'll accept the election results if there's no malfeasance, but they're already preparing and planning to sort of lay the groundwork there. and i think that's the part that's most concerning to me, is that in addition to sort of all the little examples that we see they've already put in place a lot of the pieces. this is just like the stuff that we talked about with project 2025, is that this time around there's a lot more intentionality and deliberate planning. and just one last piece on the voting part that's concerning. we're at the end game here, the end stage. one of the things that's been happening over the past couple

years is right-wing media and right-wing extremists have been attacking local election officials all across the country so that basically many of them either quit or they leave be or they just get cowed into submission. and that's the part that's concerning, is they've evacuated and pushed out a lot of people that they've then replaced with their own. and part of the strategy that trump has this cycle is to lean into what he did last time, which is to organize power on what used to be considered the fringes. and the more extremists you bring into the fold, the more violent and more risky and more scarier the tactics that they would be willing to deploy in order to succeed become because ultimately they were on the fringes for a reason and now they're no longer there. >> so bart, you sat down and sort of gamed out how to harden ourselves and our democracy against tactics like these, authoritarian tactics. let me read from your piece. "the most pressing legal question raised in our games was what to do if an authoritarian president defied a court order.

nobody had a good answer. but the rule of law demands one. democratic self-defense may rest in the end on the demonstrated will of the american people expressed if necessary in persistent large-scale protest to reject authoritarian rule." it feels like that answer and that solution is also the answer to what to do about the supreme court's immunity ruling. it is -- it is the distillation i think of this republican effort to elect kamala harris, that if republican and you care about democratic norms and you care about the rule of law and you care about the constitution and you care about this edict that in america we don't have a king, this is the reason to sort of swing over and in this unprecedented election support harris. what is sort of the reliance of any of these checks holding against trump's authoritarian

impulses of having sort of bipartisan agreement that democracy is worth saving? >> well, we all have to hope there will be sufficient bipartisan agreement that democracy is essential, that the rule of law, that our constitutional system is worth defending. we don't have as much of that as we would like to have right now. i need to mention here that the brennan center is a non-partisan organization. our -- the role playing games that we organized in may and june were non-partisan. they were democrats and republicans, conservatives and libs, about 175 former senior government officials. and our question was if an authoritarian is elected how do

you defend the constitution? how do you defend the rule of law? and it turns out to be difficult, and you can't stop everything an authoritarian would do if armed with control over the executive branch. but you can do a lot of things to delay and deflect and diminish the damage that that authoritarian might try to do. you've got some of it up on your screen, or you did. it includes i think the ultimate response is that the american people have to demonstrate that they reject living in an autocracy. so that starts with polling. donald trump cares about his polls. and he needs support well beyond his minority maga base in order

to have the kind of soft power that a president has when backed by the public. but yeah, i mean, we may need demonstrations. disciplined and peaceful demonstrations in large numbers that last a long time potentially or there may need to be a general strike. i mean, the people may need to show with their -- with their feet and where they go and what they say that they don't want to be governed by a despot. but i mean, there are lots of things to do before that. there are legal -- there are litigation strategies if the president steps over the line, there's use of every power of congress to avoid funding things that trump wants to do that are

abuses of power. there is the need to organize self-defense for the defenders of democracy. he has the power to target his political enemies with prosecutions, with tax audits, with regulations, with antitrust. he can say go get this person or that person. he said i'm going to prosecute the biden crime family. and we need to organize networks of lawyers and accountants and cybersecurity experts and physical security experts and crisis communications teams to jump in and help the victims of this kind of retribution. >> i want -- as you're talking, bart, there's so much he already did. we learned that his justice department tapped the phones of multiple "new york times" reporters. we learned that he tapped the

phones of multiple democratic members of congress. we learned that he likely sicced the irs on jim comey and andy mccabe for what are described as, quote, the most invasive audits that the irs engages in. we know that geoffrey berman was told to take crappy cases because they were against democratic opponents and he wanted an eye for an eye when republicans came under scrutiny. we know he pardoned all of his former campaign officials. i have to sneak in a break but i want to come back to all of you. and just put back into focus what he already tried to do and how much easier he would find all of those endeavors with complete immunity granted to him by this supreme court. when we come back, despite the ex-president's desperate attempts to distance himself from the wildly unpopular and autocratic project 2025, one of his chief architects is now drafting a secret transition playbook to help launch project

2025 on day one of a second trump administration should that come to pass. we'll bring you that new reporting next. plus, j.d. vance may be historically unpopular nationwide as trump's running mate, but he does even worse with the voters and the people who know him best. we'll tell you about that. and later, new revelations about more undisclosed travel by supreme court justice clarence thomas courtesy of a billionaire republican donor. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues aft. don't go anywhere. called td, tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks. people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease.

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battle. it will be convenient not to be there. but our view is that that's where the country needs us, and we're not going to be -- we're not going to save our country without a little confrontation. >> that man speaking about the necessity of confrontation is named russell vought. we have covered him quite a bit on this program. but to refresh your memory he served in the last trump administration as the director of office management and budget. he wrote a chapter of the project 2025 agenda. the a.p. has some brand new detailed reporting on him that includes this, quote, if former president trump wins a second term in november vought may get the opportunity to get on the offensive. a chief architect of prongt 2025, the controversial conservative blueprint to remake the federal government. vought is likely to be appointed to a high-ranking post in the second trump administration and he's been drafting a so far secret 180-day transition playbook to speed the plan's implementation to avoid a repeat of the chaotic start that donald trump's first term.

we're back with bart gellman, ruth ben-ghiat and angelo carusone. not so secret to you. you flagged this 180-day super rollout of the project 2025 horrors. it's getting a lot of public attention. and i guess that's good and bad. i mean, good because voters know what they would be voting for in a second trump term. they know what would come to pass from the projects of the brennan center is engaged in. bad in that i think we know enough about trump to say he would turn to his base and say we told you we were going to do all this. and the only reason for hiring j.d. vance is because of his ability to implement this 180-day program. >> yeah. i mean, he's deeply connected to it. i think we should be alarmed. i think one of the benefits of talking about its aconsistently as we are is one it's not only only politically unpopular but that's how you start to put antibodies into the system. it's a lot harder if they have to navigate around these speed

bumps. if the goal here is to sort of prevent this authoritarian nightmare that was discussed in the tabletop exercise at the brennan center the way to prevent that is to win the election and the way to win the election is to do things you noted like the republicans for harris which helps create permission structures and validates some of the arguments about democracy. it also is about shining a light on this. that's why when we were talking about project 2025 i was really fixated on the 180-day agenda because it was designed, that playbook was actually the precise way in which you implement a lot of that policy and it was being done in secret whereas the policy document was pun which would help to sort of keep trump's people supported around, it give them something to talk about and feel like they had buy-in. this is an actual plan expect pp and russ, his sbroungd a bit of a scary guy. it's notable that it was the trump campaign that actually nominated him to be on the republican national committee's platform committee to make sure they have some degree of control over that. you look at his background he founded the center for renewing america, which is not only a christian nationalist sort of outfit but one of the things

that their senior fellows, their sort of intellectuals are pushing is the idea that trump has to implement the insurrection act almost immediately upon taking office. and that sort of validates and reinforces a lot of the nightmares we've discussed, that was discussed in the first segment. for me i think the bottom line here is we should know who this guy is, we should know what he said, we should know what he's doing. it certainly closes the door on any possibility that project 2025 is shutting down or is somehow not connected to trump. and it should factor into the types of efforts that we're seeing like republicans for harris, that there needs to be not only a permission structure but a recognition on their part that the argument here is it is about what kind of country we're going to be, not even about policy so much. >> ruth, if you could sort of widen the lens for us. there's a lot to be afraid of, right? i think the idea that he would invoke the insurrection act on day one is plausible because he sought to invoke the insurrection act at the very beginning of the protests after the murder of george floyd.

the idea that the tools that we would need to combat authoritarianism are the precise tools that bart and the brennan center identified, that's exactly where we are. but i think the despair and the scariness is also a tactic. and i wonder if you sort of look at this not as special, not as an american tussle, right? between authoritarianism and democracy with high-profile republicans coming out on the pro-democracy coalition but you look at other examples. when you have the alarm bells sounded, when you have the plan in front of the voters, when you have high-profile elected republicans and former cabinet officials from the last time trump did this coming out and warning the country, is that successful? >> well, it's meant to be. and i would add this is a kind of transnational thing. not only -- it's very striking that hungarian prime minister viktor orban, he's done this repeatedly now, when he comes to

the united states he snubs the democratic state because he's part of the idea that biden is an illegitimate president. where does he go? he goes to the heritage foundation to see kevin roberts and the rest of them. and he goes to mar-a-lago to see trump as though trump were a kind of president in internal exile. so these things are transnational. and there's also a reason that trump is praising maduro, who just stole an election. and you know, project 2025 is of course there's policy proposals. what they're going to do, abolish agencies. but there's a lot about method. it's all about autocraic capture, as we call it. waging war on institutions, on democratic, liberal democratic notions of government and kind of wiping out people by firing them who would be, you know, loyal to those kind of

democratic norms. and so the reason they're talking about war so much, they use the language of war, roberts says the revolution will be bloodless if the left allows it to be and vought is constantly using the language of war. and these people also, they may wear suits and talk about reagan, but they're very close to the extremism of steve bannon. and that's why they were often going on bannon's "war room" podcast. and they speak the language that he speaks. so we shouldn't be fooled that these people are not extremists who are really waging war on democracy and this is a transnational struggle. >> and that they're so braisen and public about it. i mean, to your point, trump talks about orban all the time. bart gellman, thank you so much for being here to talk about your piece and the exercise. this is to be continued. ruth ben-gh achlt t, angelo carusone, thank you for starting

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they are. >> did you see that? >> it was like a clip -- >> i'm a pretty normal guy. i have a wife and kids and i like to hang out. >> so clearly it's under their skin that we think they're weird. they're clearly triggered. candidate and his running mate saying we're not weird. and they sound weird doing it. and j.d. vance does say a lot of weird things. that's why even super conservative hosts are asking him about things that lead to weird and unpopular and polarizing policies. policies that control things that j.d. vance doesn't understand. he couldn't. things like women's bodies or someone's choice to not have children. or people who can't have children. or people who choose to have cats with or without the children. it's the people who arguably know j.d. vance and have been listening to these weird things the longest, who know him the best, who find him the weirdest and the most unfavorable, the most disconnected and the most

alarming. polls show that j.d. vance has a negative 16 favorability rating in his home region of ohio, illinois, indiana, michigan, and wisconsin. that's even worse than the already record low approval rating he gets across the whole country. let's bring in the editor of cleveland.com and the "plain dealer," chris quinn. chris, i feel like you warned us this was the case. and the people who know him best have some firmer views of him and not necessarily positive. but it seems that the polling and the reporting bears it out. >> i wish we had come up with the word "weird" because it is so appropriate for what he's saying. i don't think we're surprised at all at the statements that are coming out now because of the way ohio works. i don't know if people realize that more than 70% of this state is not registered in a political party. so when it comes to the party primaries it's a very small

percentage of people that make that selection, and it has turned the primaries into just a competition to be the most outrageous. and when he was running back when a lot of these things were coming out he was running against some people that were trying to be more outrageous than he was. it was so bad that we created a policy, we're not going to repeat the outrageous comments because that's what they wanted to use our platforms for. we would try to summarize them. but as they fought and fought to get donald trump's blessing in that senate primary that he was in, they were saying outrageous things. and now most of the country, most of ohio is in the center and everybody's looking at what he said and going man, that is way out there, it's weird. but it's what you had to do in the party primary to get elected. if we had open primaries in ohio, he wouldn't have won. the center of ohio would never have chosen him to be on the final ballot. but the small group of people

now that are picking the candidates are as fringe as you get. so you've got to make cat lady comments to get on the ballot. >> do you think there's any scenario wherein j.d. vance jeopardizes trump's ability to win ohio? >> we did a story about this last week, and most people said no, that because of the numbers in the last two elections compared to what obama did it's not possible. but i'm not sure i buy that. trump wasn't a felon when he ran before. now he is. and people in ohio, in the center, pay attention to things like that. and it could be that they just don't want to vote for him or vance. i think a lot comes down to who is the vice presidential candidate and can harris keep this momentum going? she's clearly energizing people including in ohio cities, which mattered for obama. but can you get that personable

vice presidential candidate to be the contrast to the weird j.d. vance? somebody that can just talk about i was down at the grocery store and i was talking to people and they're not talking to me about immigration, they don't have a single anecdote about how that affects their lives. what affects their lives is child care and ohio is dead last in the country in subsidizing child care. that would resonate. >> j.d. vance has come out against universal child care. so it would really play here. it's probably not going to happen. but given what's happened in recent years i don't think you ever say never. >> well, and i mean i think -- i know from working in politics even if it doesn't happen in 92 days it could happen in two years and four years, right? i mean, i think this idea that ohio is locked red forever has always been wrong, and i want to -- i mean, i love every time that you're here and i love what you just said about child care. i mean, the other thing, j.d. vance is for taking away your health care.

the opportunity -- and this is -- i'm winding up to a question. i'm sorry to be long-winded but you got me so excited talking about ohio as a battleground again. i mean, to your point about someone who can just talk about the cost of things like child care and health care and groceries, does that argue for anyone that's been reported to be under consideration by vice president kamala harris? >> i think -- and i guess he's out according to reporting today. i think kelly would have been a very good foil. son of two police officers from new jersey. i'm from new jersey. great state to be from. he was an astronaut. he was in the military. he was the loyal husband to somebody that was the victim of terrible gun violence. something that plagues america. you stand him on a stage against j.d. vance there's no comparison. the governor of minnesota is as down home as it gets. and i think he can talk about what he's hearing. people aren't talking in ohio about immigration. even though fox news and the republicans want that to be the issue, people in ohio are

talking about the cost of college tuition and secondary school. they're talking about child care a lot because we are the worst in the nation for subsidizing it. it's those cost issues. and if you can drive that home and be genuine and authentic, i think you can. look, everybody is wondering what happens with sherrod brown. will he maintain his senate seat? i think he does because ohioans see him as authentic. he has always stood for the same things that he stands for today. >> he's authentic. and you're a great reporter. so i wouldn't hold my chops up to yours. but we still have senator kelly on our list. so we'll see. we'll know in 24 hours. chris quinn, thank you very much for spending time with us. it's always a treat. we're always happy to see you. thank you. >> thank you for having me. >> when we come back, their brand new revelations of more undisclosed travel by supreme court justice clarence thomas on a private jet owned by

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if supreme court justice clarence thomas had a nickel for every time the american people learned about another one of his previously undisclosed luxury trips paid for by a wealthy conservative donor, who knows? maybe thomas would be able to afford his own private jet. another nickel in the jar today after senate finance committee

chairman ron wyden sent a letter to lawyers for billionaire harlan crow citing customs and border protection records. wyden revealed this. justice thomas and his wife, ginni thomas, flew from hawaii to new zealand and back a week later on crow's private jet back in november 2010. from wyden's letter, "i am deeply concerned that mr. crow may have been showering a public official with extravagant gifts, then writing off those gifts to lower his tax bill. as i consider legislative solutions to curb potentially abusive deductions, i am offering you one final opportunity to address the tax treatment of yacht and jet trips involving justice thomas." while justice clarence thomas has not yet issued a response, a statement from harlan crow suggested the inquiry was politically motivated and that crow has always followed applicable tax laws. joining our conversation is former top prosecutor at the department of justice, msnbc

legal analyst andrew weissman and executive director of fix the court gabe roth. andrew weissmann, what is amazing about the attack line that something is politically motivated is the non-denial aspect of the non-denial. this is for the purposes of a civic society another revelation of another failure to disclose luxury travel. and it's not about where they went. it's not even really about how they got there. it's about the fact that they didn't deign to tell the public about it. what are your thoughts? >> absolutely. i mean, let's just leave aside -- let's assume that senator wyden was politically motivated. so what? the issue is did it happen? i mean, there's no evidence he's doing this just for politics as opposed to the actual facts. but that's just a sideshow. first, people need to understand, you were in government. i was in government.

the idea -- you could not give somebody a cup of coffee. this is so beyond the pale. everybody i know who was in government, who was in government, certainly everybody who is a judicial officer understands how this is not just normal, this is a flagrant abuse. you do not go into public service, let alone being an article 3 judge and a judge on the highest court of the land, to make money from other people. and to me this is just a sign of not just money in politics and money in the court but the idea of just being unaccountable, that this is a supreme court that just says might makes right, what are you going to do about it. i mean, it's so beyond the pale. and it's so normalized that we

will have this discussion. it is truly outrageous. and to me it is a reason that what president biden is now putting forth is something -- this kind of reform has to be something that people take seriously. >> you know, i think we cover these things sometimes with our eyes covered maybe, gabe, and by that i mean it looks like such an f you to the public, right? i'm here for life. i don't have to disclose anything. but the fact that he's there for life is why he should disclose everything. there's nothing anybody can do. and to me the most disdain that clarence thomas seems to have is for chief justice roberts, who has -- it may be sort of maybe f tiltular and ceremonial, but the perception of being the chief of something. and to be so disdainful of any semblance of adhering to disclosures just feels really, really nasty at this point.

>> yeah, i think point that you're making is very valid in that justice thomas is an outlier, right? it's not like we have a court of nine individuals who each have their own -- i mean, justice alito might have one or two -- but generally, most of the court does not have their own billionaire buddy that's flying them around the country. the court has an ethics problem, but as dahlia litwick likes to say, it's more of a justice thomas problem. and that problem has continued to balloon, as we learned today from senator wyden. if you look at chief justice roberts' own behavior, he pays for his own vacations. he goes skiing with his family, i'm told, fairly regularly. he's going to -- he went to ireland this summer, and it's probable that he was paid -- you know, was paid to teach to go to

ireland, but you know, he's not likely going there on the private jet of somebody that has business before the court. so justice roberts' own institutional practices are head and shoulders above justice thomas', and because justice roberts and first among equals and doesn't have a huge amount of power, things that he can do as a single justice to hold justice thomas in line, you know, he's really just sort of weak and, unfortunately, thomas is exposing him. >> it is really sort of -- when you push aside all the outrage, it is really the structural story of this court is sort of the impotence of chief jus tins john roberts. we'll stay on this story. thank you for jumping on the air and spending time with us today on it. another break for us. we'll be right back. another break for us we'll be right back.

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decision in trump v. the united states last month. the judge this weekend also denied a motion pending since november put forward by lawyers for the disgraced ex-president to dismiss the indictment all together. she rejected arguments that trump was being prosecuted simply for speaking his mind as well as arguments that he was the subject of what's called a selective and vindictive prosecution. and so this interference case moves forward, at least for now. another break for us. we'll be right back. r break for us we'll be right back. i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms. with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel,

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari, happy monday. >> happy monday, thank you, nicole, and welcome to "the beat," everyone, i am ari melber, and the dnc is concluding its delegate voting late today with kamala harris on track to become the party's official nominee. this is the official