's day you only do it if she says. do you want to practice? wait a minute, did i say, selena says? >> you can watch both documentaries starting sunday at 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. for now, i'm signing off. thank you for hanging out with us. you can catch us on saturdays at 11:00 p.m. eastern. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up all week long.

i will see you monday. this was the line to get the vice president, harris' rally in arizona. i'm not making it up, it keeps going and going and going. the cook political report moved the key swing state of errors on it from rating of lean republican to toss-up. one look at the size of the crowd that showed up to seek kamala harris speak tonight really speaks volumes, helps you understand why. the harris campaign estimates more than 15,000 people showed up to see her and governor tim walz tonight. all week, harris has drawn massive crowds, 12,000 in eau claire, wisconsin, 14,000 in philadelphia, 15,000 in detroit. tonight, more than 15,000 in arizona. people all across the country are legitimately excited about kamala harris. some of it is organic, some of it is really about the angst around joe biden, some of it is

a new campaign strategy. since taking her place at the top of the ticket, harris has changed the democratic ticket messaging strategy entirely. as people close to harris told nbc news today, gone are joe biden's dark warnings about the life and death stakes for american democracy. while harris understands that threat, she is choosing to focus the messaging of her campaign on freedom and joy. freedom and joy. take those two things one at a time. as a member of the harris team told nbc news, harris thinks that freedom is an easier way for people to understand how they are being personally impacted. freedom is an easier way to understand what it means for democracy to be under threat. what that means practically is that harris started speaking less about the threat trump poses to democracy and more about the freedom for kids to read the books that they want to read, freedom for women to control their own body, and the freedom to be safe from gun violence. in terms of content, harris

wants her campaign's messaging to be optimistic and focus on the world with more freedoms, not fewer. people close to her told nbc that harris is, quote, committed to what she calls a joyful campaign. >> it is good to be back in arizona, i thank you for turning out today. this is an extraordinary -- [ cheers and applause ] arizona, also this, as exciting as this is, we cannot lose sight of a really important fact, we are definitely running as the underdog. we are the underdog. we have a lot of work to do. and this is going to be hard work but i know we like hard work. hard work is good work for all of us. hard work is good work. and we will do it with joy.

>> and we will do it with joy, not a way that you hear donald trump ending his speeches. i want you to compare that energy that you just heard and that message to trump. this is how trump kicked off his latest set of public remarks yesterday. >> thank you very much, appreciate your being here. the statement before i talk about debates, i think that our country is right now in the most dangerous position it has ever been in from an economic standpoint, from a safety standpoint. we have a lot of bad things coming up, you could end up in a depression of the 1920 night variety which would be a devastating thing, it took many years, decades to recover from it. we are very close to that and very close to a world war. >> talk a lot about economics later in the short, the point is well trump and has campaign

are preaching this is the end of days, the harris strategy is to contrast that. trump once people to be angry about in megastar future in which america is overrun by criminal immigrants, harris is trying to excite americans about the future our country could have. not just the top of the ticket where the contrast is that sharp. >> the one thing i will not forgive them for is they tried to steal the joy from this country. but you know what, our next president brings the joy, she emanates the joy. >> thomas speaking at a rally in detroit on wednesday you might remember donald trump's running mate, senator j.d. vance, was also in detroit on wednesday. while he was there, a fox news reporter pitched him this softball, listen to the question and to vance's response. >> reporter: angry sometimes,

what are they do, smile, what makes you happy? >> i smile at a lot of things including focused questions from the media, man. i think if you watch the full speech that i give, i'm having a good time out here and enjoying this. sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. right now, i am angry about what kamala harris has done to this country and the american southern border. >> there's that fear again, no time to smile when you are preparing for the border invasion. full disclosure here, i have to admit, as someone who spent years covering the threat to our democracy that the mega movement and the big lie pose, the idea of not for fronting that aspect of this election surprised me. today, the historian on whom i rely heavily for her expertise, the history of authoritarianism and fascist movements, circulated something that she wrote years ago that also surprised me.

it was an article she wrote about how chile won back its democracy from the authoritarian dictator. quote, hope may seem a flimsy thing to wield against autocracy but it is the secret weapon of resistance. an essential lever of action, end quote. in 1988, chili pepper held a referendum to decide whether the dictator would remain in power. his military had destroyed voting registries and intimate of the public through force. rather than focusing on the fear, the pro-democracy opposition focused on the joy, the slogans were joy is coming and happiness is the rainbow. they ran ads featuring soccer stars and ordinary people expressing hope for chile's future which was a daring thing to do in 1988. his ads, in contrast, repeated the old talking points about the threat of leftist and

harped on grievance and loss, terror in the end was all the regime had. the courage of chile citizens to get out to vote and power positive messaging created the momentum to remove him from power. let's be really clear, eclipsed that and put it on the internet, donald trump is not him. he had killed tens of thousands of his own people by the time he was kicked out of office but joy was rejected in that phase of brutality. in the u.s. today with vice president harris facing off against an opponent consumed by vengeance and rage and authoritarian instincts, a man that tried to overthrow an election and seems to be laying the groundwork to try to do so again, what should we make of the strategy of that threat with joy? joining us is john allen, senior politics reporter and former campaign manager for bernie sanders, founder of a more perfect union.

thank you for being here. i want to get a piece of news that came out of arizona, the other day, kamala harris faced criticism from the audience, she faced a heckler and some chants. she gave what some have criticized as a dismissive response. she got it again tonight, i want to play this and listen to how different the response was tonight from the other night. >> we are here to fight for our democracy. [ cheers and applause ] which includes respecting the voices that i think we are hearing from. let me say this, on topic of what i think i'm hearing over there, let me just speak to that form a and i will get back to the business at hand. let me say, i have been clear, now is the time to get a cease-

fire deal and get the hostage deal done. >> i want to get your take on that, total shift from what she did in detroit the other night. >> it is the mark of a good candidate, that you can adjust on the fly. i think she has a better tone tonight that is respectful of disagreement, rice with me, i'm with you on values and have me a chance to work with you on policies. i think that is the right approach. to the point of joy, i love the approach and enthusiasm, i don't think people want to live in fear, they want to exit out of it. my caution is that there are people who are angry. if you look at the persuasion boat, low income people frustrated about our economy, don't lose them in the mind. when you're joyful, it can come across as class privilege to this small segment of people who are understandably angry

about wages not having risen enough, inflation hurting them. i think the way to access them is not to tell them, i'm going to live in anger with you, i understand your anger and i can see hope and optimism with a plan to help you. i think for my mind, it is important to think economically about the people not are ready joyful who need to bring up to joyfulness. >> that is valid, those people's concerns are valid. we can talk in broad strokes about how the economy is doing, for some people, it is not working for them. tell me how you square that, the idea there is hope and the together we can do this, we can rise out of whatever more you think we are in without it being dismissive of people of actual concerns and that anger out there, legitimate and valid anger out there with undecided and swing voters. >> first of all, i think that ismail haniyeh one is absolutely right, there are people very angry , the dollar

does not go as far as it used to. it is tougher to make it in america right now than it was a few years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago. in my lifetime, i feel like more people are struggling. all of that said, kamala harris is in a period where she quickly brought the democratic party together and trying to continue to do that and i think that joy messages part of it. interestingly, she is talking about joyfulness and the future. not so different from the message we heard not so long ago from candidate barack obama, hope and change, hope and joy very closely related, changing the future very closely related. i think the question is after the democratic condition, the period of coalescence among democrats, does she convert to what faiz is talking about and hammer home a message about how she is going to adopt policies that are helpful to people who are concerned, worried, hurt and angry in this

economy. that swing vote, no matter who you talk to is about 10% in the battleground states who are undecided, who are swing voters right now. she will have to have a good message about what it is she wants to change in the future in order to capture this vote. >> let's talk about that, you have been in a campaign deeply steeped in policy. there are things the biden administration had wanted to do and plan to do, in some cases has done in terms of student loans, child care. there are policies in place, this is unlike donald trump, winging it until project 2025 came along. there are policies, are those good enough for her or does she have to do something else to say this is other things that i'm proposing connect to my hopes for the future? >> shift to create her own economic narrative.

she can borrow and should, the accomplishments of joe biden, the values that he had also, i think she has to establish her own credibility on this. when you think of freedom, you mentioned that word, i think weaving a tale of economic freedom, what is economic freedom? workers not free in noncompete agreement, establish small businesses and compete against corporate monopolies, freedom not to be overly taxed and watch the people get away with paying less than all of us. i think there's a way to think about this, one of the most important things the biden philosophy making america, bringing manufacturing jobs here, that tag on the back of your shirt matters to me. i went many factoring jobs, american ethics, she has to create her own language and her own story. she was at the uaw yesterday talking about her belief in labor union as a core part of her philosophy. she has work to do, i think the last 1% or 2% while come online

michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, people not deeply engaged in the political race thus far, that is what they want to hear what is the economic message, your fight on corporate monopoly, price- fixing, price collusion, those things matter. i think she has a witch but she has to flush it out in more aggressive way down the home stretch. >> these things get flushed out in interviews, which have not done a ton of, that will start connected to or beyond the convention. and they get flushed out as faiz says, when people start to two men, not people like us, people who are otherwise occupied with things that will tune into the campaign later. you should see actual shift occurring moving from this momentum and energy and crowds into policy discussions? i assume the debate, september 10th, to be a great opportunity for that. >> hearing policy shifts already, not really so much the broad economic scales, we heard

her move a different direction on fracking, which she wants us wanted to ban. we heard the campaign for this week she believes unauthorized immigrants coming across the border have broken the law. there have been some changes. i think there will be tension as she tries to create her own policy platform because she has been vice president for president biden and because he is still in office, there's a natural tension between anything she wants to do that has not been done and what is being done right now. i think she is taking some time to figure that out. she is a new candidate, but at the same time, there is entire economic team at the lighthouse, one of the top economic aides of democratic politics the last 30 or 40 years moved to her campaign. we should start to expect to see that pretty soon. as far as interviews go, as a reporter, i would like to see her do them sooner than later.

>> thanks for kicking us off tonight, we always appreciate it, john allen and via shakira. donald trump's latest word garbled salad comments on the issue of abortion. the harris campaign promise to bring sunbelt swing states back in play. i talked to the arizona reporter right after this. ♪limu e ♪& doug.♪ and if we win, we get to tell you how liberty mutual customizes car insurance so you only pay for what you need. isn't that what you just did? service! ♪stand back i'm going to show ya,♪ ♪how doug and limu roll, yeah!♪ ♪♪ ♪you know you got to live it,♪ ♪♪ ♪if you want to win...♪ [bump] time out! only pay for what you need. ♪liberty, liberty,♪ ♪liberty, liberty.♪ new mr. clean ultra foamy magic eraser? it's more magic than ever.

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if donald trump wins in november, he intends to end the affordable care act. he won't win, you are right. he won't win. [ cheers and applause ] we will win. part of why we are going to win is because we remember. and we are smart and we know what is happening and we are not falling for the gas lighting and we are not falling for the okey-doke. >> kamala harris and thomas wrapped up a raucous campaign rally before more than 15,000 people in glendale, arizona. it is their largest rally today and it comes recent polling shows harris gaining ground in

arizona and nevada, leading donald trump by two points, that is within the margin of error but it does show difference in trent. joining me is reporter for axios phoenix. thank you for being with us, i want to talk about the various things that are resonating for or not for arizona voters. obviously, the border and immigration is a big one for arizona voters. talk to me about kamala harris' message and how it is doing. >> reporter: the message we saw from the ad that came out today, trying to capitalize on the border issue, something that donald trump has very much made the cornerstone of his campaign, since he has been running for president. this is a state where the border issue, illegal immigration, these are issues everywhere in the country. here in arizona, it reaches a

different level, where we bear the brunt of all of this stuff so if she is able to deflect some of trump's criticism on that, it could bear fruit in the campaign. we have yet to see, it is pretty early. >> talk about the discussion about abortion rights and reproductive rights in arizona. there's a ballot measure in november on abortion rights, tell me where they are on that. >> reporter: i know there is a court challenge, there might be multiple ones going on, i think the people trying to kick them off the ballot, if i recall correctly, they lost what they are appealing, don't quote me on that, the general expectations, this is going to be on the ballot, it is very well-funded and well-planned. they were working on this for a long time before they launched the campaign, i would be surprised if it wasn't on the ballot. this could be a turnout driver

for harris and other democrats on the ballot, in the same way the doves decision when the supreme court overturned roe v. wade a couple years ago, that was a big turnout driver as well. we saw how that played out with some big statewide races in arizona. >> let's talk about the turner issue, in arizona is a big deal and complicated deal, a lot of republicans last election crossed lines to support democrats because they were frustrated by kari lake and the election denial stuff. kari lake against ruben gallego , which one motivates the other, the senate race, does that bring more people to vote then the presidential race or the excitement of harris and walz rings more people out to vote or are those two things in your mind not connected? >> reporter: the presidential race probably drives more people to the polls. there are probably some folks not necessarily on the left not necessarily excited four or six weeks ago before the race got shaking up by president biden.

there was definite attitude shift among democrats for folks not optimistic, not particularly motivated, not enthused. we saw in the video the harris/walz rally in glendale, he saw the attitude shift, to drive more folks to the polls that were otherwise not going to vote. that anti-abortion initiative could potentially have a lot of dividends for the democrats. >> talk to me about the issue of republicans frustrated with the republican party in arizona. one might've thought after the last election there would be postmortem, let's not alienate the people who identify as republicans and conservatives, arizona a state with a proud conservative heritage. arizona republicans double down on their election denial message. does the harris/walz ticket benefit from the crossover vote?'s

>> reporter: most likely. we saw it two years ago, this is a center-right state, even though democrats have had a lot of wins recently, this is generally a republican leading state. things change a lot when you start putting candidates like we saw election denier maga tech candidates that voted in 2022, folks that made no attempts to reach out to the center, what i call the mccain wing of the party, a lot of people ended up going for democrats two years ago. we may not, so far, i don't know that we have seen a lot of republicans in arizona, i think some of them are doing the same thing, even the same candidates, some cases not really making much of an effort to reach out to the center, the republicans who have peeled off the last few years. they cannot win those folks over, that could be bad news come november. >> will be paying close attention once again to the

state of arizona. jeremy thanks for being on with us, jeremy duda with axios phoenix. the question was, quote, would you direct your fda to revoke access to the abortion pill mifepristone? the question was clear, trump's answer was unclear, that was intentional. i will talk about the republicans intentional evasive messaging right after this.

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it is perhaps the clearest example of watch what they do, not what they say. here is donald trump being asked a yes or no question yesterday about whether he would ban the drug used to provide medication abortions. >> you could do things that would supplement, absolutely. those things are pretty open and humane. but you have to be able to have a vote, all i want to do is give everybody a vote. the votes are taking place right now as we speak. >> you have no idea what he meant by that you're not alone. it turns out trump advisers do have a very clear policy on whether or not to ban medication abortion. all you have to do is turn to page 491 of project 2025. if elected to the white house, they say loud and clear that their plan is to instruct the

fda to, quote, reverse approval of chemical abortion drugs, end quote. how did donald trump quote it again? >> you could do things that would supplement, absolutely. those things are pretty open and humane but you have to have a vote. >> that word salad responses no action because republicans are painfully aware of the fact of being the party that bans abortion is hanging around their necks like a political and. they are not softening policy positions around abortion, there softening the way that they talk about it and they hope that voters don't notice the difference but tonight in arizona, vice president harris made the difference very clear. >> just yesterday in a press conference, we got a fresh reminder of what donald trump's 2025 agenda would do, it would ban medication abortion in every state.

but we are not going to let that happen. because we trust women! >> joining us is the president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all. thank you for being here. i have to say in all the years i covered the issue of abortion, i have never seen this, these magic tricks, these different ways that republicans try to answer this question, you still find some people that speak their truth and tell you what they really want to do, that is ben abortion, ben mifepristone, possibly ban contraception, all sorts of things. everyone else is doing some kind of dance to make sure they don't say that. >> every time abortion is on the ballot abortion wins. we had ballot measure after ballot measure, candidates running on this issue. even when things were looking really tight between biden and trump, abortion was the issue moving

voters to the democrats. abortion is a salient issue and continues to be salient because the longer the bends are in place, the more horrifying consequences in the states. republicans know they cannot win on their actual policy positions, trying to hide project 2025, disavow affiliation. we have a vice presidential candidate like j.d. vance, who is so cozy with the heritage foundation, get this, talking about mifepristone, also the comstock act, j.d. vance was one of the republican senators who asked the doj, demanded the doj enforce comstock to block medication abortion months after the dobbs decision, maybe weeks, check that area because they are so emboldened and in bed with that antiabortion extremist movement. they cannot disentangle themselves from it. now, they are as you said, contorting themselves to hide

their record but their record was five minutes ago. either they think we are stupid or they are stupid, my guess is it is a little bit of both. >> i wonder if somebody did not talk to somebody before they rented this 922 page project 23 five because abortion is in there 200 times, not just one section, all over the place. it is clear, i guess they're coming on the fact that document is hard to read and people will not read it because it is written, if you vote that way in january get donald trump as your president, 180 day plan to do everything they can do to take abortion rights away from people, not the states already gone, in every state. >> remember, they took this input, every republican attorney general in the country, almost every republican attorney general signed the brief to the supreme court asking the court to support banning mifepristone, revoking fda authorization to mifepristone. what if the supreme court do?

they did not rule for mifepristone to remain authorized. they punted, kicked the can down the road, very conveniently for future republican in the station and future republican led fda to take the action to revoke the authorization that this is the case that came out of the texas court, judge matthew kaczmarek, trump appointee, incredibly extreme that wanted to challenge the fda, decades of authority of incredibly safe drug, mifepristone, one of two abortion medication combo. everything is lined up, project 2025, the stacked courts, extremist supreme court, republicans in the house and senate pushing their own legislation on ivf, contraception on more restrictions against abortion providers. again, they can't hide it, it is in clear sight and they have not stopped. all they have done is try to twist the way they talk about

it, they have not stopped any of the policy, whether it is the court, legislature, whether it is safer that bans mobile -- continue to fight. >> opening messaging about what democrats need to do, some discussion that hope and freedom messages good but it has to translate into meat and potatoes in terms of actual policy. anything related to reproductive freedom, kamala harris is a good place can shift in the face of that, she leans into the concept of freedom, the name of your organization, it is a good way to understand abortion. think about it as abortion or the freedom to make your own choices, as kamala harris said at the rally in arizona, we trust women, end of story. once you get that, you get the message. >> fundamental decision to decide if and when to have a family to which every american can relate to, interesting shifting from the choice life binary to a freedom framework talking about abortion access.

so many other issues is that it takes it away from just one gender. it is no longer just a women's issue. we all have skin in the game for fundamental freedoms. the freedom from government interference, it is a freedom to make decisions about your own body. that is something every american can relate to and it also takes away the judgment. it makes it more than just a choice. although, the choice is critical to have. the other thing you mentioned is that the vice president talks very much about trusting women. that is something that for a long time, americans have not embraced. it is time to get back to that, honestly, my mother's generation the trust women messaging. what i love about vice president harris, she can take the modern framing and message of freedom but also reinforcing what my mother's and grandmother's want to hear, we want to be trusted, not

marginalized. >> remarkable message, great to see you, thanks for joining us. mini timmaraju is the president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all . thank you for being here. coming up, american athletes at the paris olympics discovered something else other than medals and competitive spirit to get excited about i will tell you all about it after the break. discover the power of wegovy®. ♪ ♪ with wegovy®, i lost 35 pounds. and some lost over 46 pounds. ♪ ♪ and i'm keeping the weight off. wegovy® helps you lose weight and keep it off. i'm reducing my risk. wegovy® is the only fda-approved weight-management medicine that's proven to reduce risk of major cardiovascular events in adults with known heart disease and with either obesity or overweight. wegovy® shouldn't be used with semaglutide or glp-1 medicines. don't take wegovy® if you or your family had medullary thyroid cancer,

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—looking good, man. —learned it from you! it's got to be tide. not just medals or the chance to compete against the world's greatest athletes that has some american athletes excited about participating in the paris olympics the sugar here's bronze medal winning rugby player ramsey in her own words. >> not only in the village do we have free food, we have free dental, free healthcare, i literally got a pap smear for free and i have a dentist appointment and eye exam next week like what?

>> can't really blame her, the irony is that free healthcare, universal healthcare for olympic athletes debuted in the united states at the 1932 olympics in los angeles and yet, to this day, the united states remains the only wealthy industrialized country in the entire world without universal healthcare. conservatives in this country love to paint policies like universal healthcare not as the standard for develop nations but rather as something nefarious, something radical. donald trump and republicans have repeatedly attacked camila karas calling her socialist, a communist for her plans to rebuild the middle class. plans include increasing the minimum wage, the federal minimum wage in this country is $7.25 an hour, that is $15,000 a year. making child care more affordable can implement paid family leave and capping rent increases. all of that, in republicans eyes, somehow makes harris a

threat, not an asset to the u.s. economy. set aside the fact that poll after poll shows americans overwhelmingly support such policies. it is undeniable strong social policies that better support a workforce generate a more robust economy, it is better for the economy if you or workers are out sick or forced off the job because they don't have access to medical treatment, things like paid family leave and affordable childcare means that parents, including more women, can remain in the workforce despite unforeseen circumstances or forcing circumstances like raising a child. affordable housing means fewer people can stop living paycheck to paycheck and have money left over for other necessities. what plan does the other guy have? this week, one of donald trump supporters asked him flat out, particularly, how trump's plan will make housing more affordable to work ? >> how you will you make the economy, not just the food and electricity, but bring down the

rent prices, housing prices, so that these kids can survive? without their parents help. >> you are right, i hear you very well. i love the people you are with, i must have 99, perhaps 100% of all of them, i think they are incredible. we are going to drill, baby drill, bring down the cost of energy. energy costs the worst inflation, i think i'm in the history of our country. food prices are up 50% and sometimes more. you look at bacon, bacon quadrupled, you can't order bacon. >> in fact, drill, baby drill, appears to be donald trump's only answer to fixing the economy. >> my plan for jobs is to drill, baby drill. drill, baby drill right away. drill, baby drill. i bring energy down, interest rates. drill, baby drill.

drill, baby drill. we have to. i will end the devastating inflation crisis immediately, bring down interest rates and lower the cost of energy. we will drill, baby drill. >> inconvenient fact for donald trump, if drilling oil for the magic solution, none of the economic issues affecting americans today would exist. the united states has seen record oil and energy production under the current biden/harris administration, the united states is the largest producer of oil in the world. that is donald trump's wrong and out of touch answer to one of the right questions voter should be asking when they go to the polls in november. another question is, which candidate is poised to address the complex economic needs of americans? and who, not unlike a leaky oil rig, is just spewing nonsense? that much, at least, appears quite clear. we will be right back.

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i will tell you two stories out of russia, both of them are eye-popping and both raise questions about strategy. the first one happen in the russian republic, here's a headline, russian chess player may be banned for life after trying to poison opponent, end quote. according to russian authorities, the player was caught on surveillance video, you can see here, entering a room set up for a chess tournament. she appears to rub something on one of the chessboard. watch this, the person who later played at the chessboard became ill but ultimately survived. russian officials say that the substance was mercury, a neurotoxin, the woman appears to have planted the mercury is the subject of a criminal investigation. not exactly a well-thought-out strategy, especially for a chess player. the other story out of russia involves a strategic move that nobody saw coming, it is happening right now in the

kursk region, border of ukraine. battles rage in russia as the claimant struggles to repel surprise ukraine incursion. the fighting, going on four days, marks the first time since russia's illegal invasion of ukraine, more than two years ago, ukraine's armed forces have taken the ground fight onto russian soil. along with the surprise and shock of the ukrainian cross- border offensive into russia comes the question of why now? joining me is a retired united states army lieutenant colonel, army colonel, a former white house senior ethics official at the national security council and democratic candidate for virginia's seventh congressional district. thank you for being with us today. >> thank you for having me. >> i want to ask you about this, this is the first time, ukraine's has launched attacks into russia before, this is the first time a ground incursion has taken place in russia, the first ground incursion into russia since world war ii.

>> that is true. they have been previous ground incursions done by russian brigades so brigades of russians that are basically supported by the ukrainian military but russian in nature. this is the first time ukrainian armed forces had an incursion like this and this is not insignificant incursion, multi brigade operation that achieved tactical and operational strategic surprise, not only were the units in that immediate vicinity surprised, units in the region all the way up to strategic intelligence and the kremlin were surprised. the real question is, how will this operation unfold? is it a short-term raid? are the ukrainians planning on holding the territory? regardless, the russians have to dislodge them, if the russians don't pressure the ukrainians, the ukrainians have no reason to leave other than logistics, they will continue

to reinforce to it as a profound embarrassment for the russian armed forces, for the kremlin, vladimir putin. russian territory is now occupied territory. >> it is a remarkable situation, washington and arlen have both responded by saying, ukraine is defending itself, it has to do what it has to do. they got in about 20 miles, what is it mean now and what is the significance of it? i think the point you make is remarkable, that is there is occupied russian territory by ukrainians at this point, the irony of that. strategically, what is important about this? >> really what this does, the purpose of the operation is to force a dilemma on the russians. the russians continue to push in the south of ukraine in the east along donetsk region, they push along that, it is

pressuring ukraine. what the ukrainians are trying to do is force a dilemma on the russians. they continue those offensives, do they try to reinforce and push the ukrainians back into kursk occupied area? it is a smart move, it is one that will force the russians to make some hard decisions. frankly, it is a demonstration of continued ukrainian ability, the skills and capability to surprise the russians and to do things the russians, frankly the rest of the world, does not anticipate . >> with ground maps of ukraine since april or may of 2022 until now, people can argue on the ground it has been a stalemate. it does not tell the full story, russia has enabled the naval to gain air superiority

over ukraine, which is amazing. they can send drones and muscles, many of them are intercepted, most of them, they don't openly fly easily over ukraine. they have been pushed back to the east on the red sea. those f-16s might start coming into play. this is a remarkable situation for russia, remember we thought would take ukraine in three days or a week. >> that is 100% true. don't forget the black sea fleet in crimea practically pushed out of crimea, operating in the eastern side of the black sea. they have been remarkable successes by the ukrainians with drones, being able to miss him eyes russian aviation assets, f- 16s coming online will further force russian aviation to be more careful and back further from the front. these are remarkable successes. the russians have demonstrated

they don't have the capability to seize large swaths of ukrainian territory. now, this looks like it could be the beginning of a shift of momentum across the battlefield for ukrainians. >> colonel, good to see you again. thank you for joining us, retired united states army colonel eugene vindman. that is our show tonight, tomorrow i will host my own show, velshi. time to do more reading before the book club, i sit down with the author of, all the light we cannot see, which as you know is a pulitzer prize historical winning novel beloved by critics and readers but not by activists that keep trying to get it removed from school library bookshelves. that is tomorrow on velshi at 10:00 a.m. on msnbc. time for the last word with jonathan capehart.