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like he did leading up to the 2020 election, donald trump and his allies have spent the last few weeks laying the groundwork to once again contest a potential loss in november. falsely claiming joe biden's exit from the race was unconstitutional, refusing in interview after interview to commit to accepting this election's outcome, and lifting up key and sometimes obscure state election officials with histories of denying his 2020 loss, like the three newly appointed members of georgia's state election board, earlier this month on the campaign trail. >> the georgia state election board is in a very positive way, this is a very positive thing, margery, they're on fire, doing a great job. three members. janis johnson, rick jeffries, and janel king, three people, are all pitbulls, fighting for honesty, transparency and

victory. they're fighting. >> those three pitbulls, as donald trump calls them, are now the center of a new lawsuit filed by the dnc, the democratic party of georgia, and other key officials, after the board they sit on passed two rules that democrats, along with the georgia secretary of state brad raffensperger, say invites chaos to the post-election process. joining us now, nbc news senior national politics reporter jonathan allen and political reporter at the atlanta journal constitution and msnbc contributor greg boosting. this is your home state and you know it well. tell me about that's rules. >> these rules are backed by a newly empowered pro-trump majority on the state election board. a five-member board. there's three members who have consistently voted in alliance with each other, and look, it's a reminder these things go beyond partisan rifts. governor brian kemp's appointment to the board often allows himself with the democrat on the board.

shows how deep these rifts go. the rule changes require an undefined reasonable inquiry. on its face that doesn't sound very controversial, but because it is not defined, it can lead to all sorts of questions about what that means. right. voting rights groups, democrats, even some republicans, warned that this could be a dress rehearsal, another setup for what happened in 2020, sowing doubts and ceding concerns. >> brad raffensperger is one of those republicans, the secretary of state. what is he saying? >> he's warning these are last-minute rule changes by, in his words, unelect the bureaucrats. he's trying to drive this message home. governor kemp is also raising some red flags. one of his top advisors said, basically, that these changes are exactly what republicans complained about back in 2020, when brad raffensperger was pushing that you rule changes

without the party's consideration, without their approval. he's warning, and the attorney general, and governor kemp has asked the attorney general for insight on whether or not he has the legal power to remove some of these board members if there's a conflict of interest. >> part of the issue here is that if you have these reasonable inquiries, as the republicans call them, you could be looking into elections in various districts in georgia and you could potentially miss the certification deadline, which comes later in the year, which means that you would not be able to send your slate of electors to congress and the vice president wouldn't be able to -- i mean it's a cascading of effects. the vice president might not be able to count them any longer and what situation are you in? if governor kemp is put in a situation where he has a group of board officials saying that we can't certify this election, what does he do, greg? >> yeah. that's the big question, right. and look, governor kemp is a former secretary of state so he oversaw elections in georgia for

years and knows this issue better than most. back in 2020 he said, look, i was upholding the constitution by certifying the election, by kind of signing off on that certification. you know, in this case, if -- and there's reason to be concerned because we did a study, even when the results weren't in doubt earlier this year, republican board members in a number of small counties opposed certifying recent election results based on, you know, subjective reasons. some of them were discrepancies over a handful of ballots that wouldn't affect the outcome of the race and many were in deep red counties that donald trump will easily win in november. >> part of the reason why this is our lead story today, this is something, john, that's been under covered, the sowing of doubt that we saw in the lead up to the 2020 election. we saw it in the lead up to the 2016 election. and that's what allowed donald trump to runaway with this idea that the election was taken from him, and marshal all that anger on the public enough to create

january 6th, to get a storm of people trying to invade the capitol. this time, they're doing it, again, donald trump is saying it on the campaign trail, but now, it's like they've learned their lesson from 2020 and they're getting into the state elections offices and changing things up. >> if you don't like the rules, katy, apparently the answer is to try to change them. i think what's, you know, potentially troubling here, what is i think, you know, if you play this down the chain, president trump doesn't need to win all the states necessarily if he can deny kamala harris -- and i should say former president trump, if he can deny harris a majority of the electoral college votes. if there's outstanding states and she has won, but the states aren't certified at the congressional level, it gets thrown to the house of representatives. if there are more house delegations majority republican than majority democratic and that would have been the case in the last election, then you

would assume that that -- that the house would elect donald trump president. even if he loses an election, electoral votes counted, he could end up the president. >> i'm going to bring into the conversation, and stick with me, our legal correspondent lisa rubin. lisa, i asked greg a moment ago a question a doesn't have the results in hand by the certification deadline. what would he do? >> well, if governor kemp doesn't have the results fully in hand, he still, katy, could certify a slate of lectors and send them to congress, but what i was focused on in your conversation with greg, what happens if brian kemp didn't send a slate of electors to congress? what would happen them under a 2022 statute, the electoral count reform act, is that the number required to win in the electoral college would be diminished, essentially, by the number that's not sent in.

so as our colleague rachel maddow said in "the new york times" the other day, it would reduce the number from 270 to 262 because georgia has 16 electoral votes. but let's say kamala harris were the rightful winner of those 16 electoral votes, donald trump would deprive her of all of them theoretically if this rules change prevents brian kemp from sending electors to congress in the first place. you can see how a decision meant to empower local county election officials, could have reverberations up through the counting of the votes by congress in january as you mentioned earlier. >> john, a moment ago we played donald trump from a rally in georgia from earlier this month, and it goes, the first few days of august, where he calls out this new board of electors, election officials in georgia, out by name, he knows them individually. you've covered politics a long time. have you ever heard of a presidential candidate knowing the names of the state board of

electors? >> some presidential candidates don't even know the name of their senior advisors, much less the board of election candidates. >> why would they know those names and they be important to him? >> he's elevating those names so they become heros in his own group. he's encouraging them to act on his behalf. he's giving them the support of a platform of a former president of the united states and the republican nominee for president in a, you know, state that has, at least until recently, has been red, is now purple, and, of course, these owe lex officials have done something that is helpful to him and wants to encourage that. >> we see the democratic party and the democratic party within georgia as well, they're suing, saying that this isn't fair. it's not right for the election. it's going to sow chaos. what is the kamala harris campaign doing about these efforts? we're not just seeing it in georgia. there are efforts happening across the country, maybe less successful than what we're seeing in georgia, but are they ahead of this?

>> john? >> i mean, katy, they are, to the extent they can be, right. there is a massive democratic legal complex, right. you know, i think viewers are pretty familiar with marc elias the leading expert on the democratic side, lawyers all over the country for democrats that are ready to jump in, in the case of contested election. i think ever since 2000 with that contested election there's been an awareness of just how much the law really can affect the outcome and that's been, you know, certainly true the last two election cycles. i think they're as ready as they can be, of course. there may be issues that come up that they have not thought about. >> lisa, if this happens that georgia finds itself in a scenario where they don't know what to do because they can't certify the results, is there something -- you talked about that 2022 statute, is there a situation where this could end

up at the supreme court? >> i think it's possible, katy, but i think, you know, a lot would need to happen between now and then. one of the things that the plaintiffs say in this lawsuit is that the appropriate way for dealing with uncertainty about election results is the courts in the first place. in other words, if you're a local county election board member, you don't have discretion to say whether you're going to certify results or not, according to the plaintiffs here. the law, according to them, says plainly you have to certify results about i a date and time certain and if there's a dispute about who won, that should be kicked to the courts under georgia election law. one way or another, whether there's a failure to certify or whether people do, as the plaintiffs say they should, certify results and then fight it out in courts, i think we are poised to see a great deal of litigation leading up to the 2024 election and then in the weeks and months beyond it. somewhat like 2020. this time around, i unlike republicans being the plaintiffs, you will see a lot of democratic candidates,

campaigns and good government types, looking to sue people who are election administrators saying essentially do your job. you have a mandatory legal obligation. you're not doing it. you're preventing the election from being finalized and we're going to take you to court. >> okay. i'm going to let greg and john go because i have to move on to some other stories with lisa rubin. thank you. i appreciate it. to texas, ag ken paxton ordered a search of a number of homes and businesses for volunteers associated with the latino organizing group. we were talking about this earlier. does he have the authority you to do that and is there any situation where a federal court might find that he had overstepped? does the doj get involved? >> the doj has certainly been invited to get involved by lulac and the doj could get involved and does get involved in what

are disputes about the voting rights act. they issue what are called statements of interest all the time in existing litigation and then occasionally they bring litigation of their own. what i'm not familiar with, though, katy, is situations in which the doj brings its own suit under the voting rights act to stop a local state official from conducting his or her own law enforcement investigation in the game of voting integrity. you're seeing a collision here between ken paxton on one hand saying he's trying to root out voter fraud and the department of justice saying hey, what you're trying to do in the name of voter integrity is intimidating people from the exercise of the franchise and from encouraging other people to participate in their right to vote as well. >> so he argues he's -- >> go ahead. >> he argues he's searching out evidence of voter fraud and believes that lulac could be behind that. part of the search warrant i found crazy, we talked about this, was that it authorized the

taking of dna from the people's homes, from the people whose homes were being searched. >> that's right. swabbing of the inside of cheeks. i'm not sure what dna evidence would have to do necessarily with some form of indicia of voter fraud he's looking for. we know that where it is you see noncitizens voting and where that has been found before in very low numbers, more often than not, that noncitizen voting is an accident, not on purpose. it's, for example, somebody who is encouraged to register when they get their driver's license or when they get some form of other i.d. very, very rarely have we seen cases where somebody who is not entitled to vote in the united states purposefully and intentionally exercises the right that they are not entitled to. what ken paxton is trying to do here, so far, looks like a widespread intimidation effort and not an attempt to root out voter fraud widespread or not in his home state. >> one other story for you and

this has to do with the parole in place program that joe biden wanted to put in place regarding a spouse's undocumented spouses of american citizens. he wanted to allow quite a few of them, if you've been in this country over ten years, already married, to apply for legal status while they remain in the country. usually you have to leave the country, that leads to family separations because you have to leave for a long time. he wanted to allow a group of these people to stay here while they apply. ken paxton, a.g. of texas, also sued to stop this and a federal judge in texas has said okay. what did he rule? >> the judge in texas ruled essentially that this was, in fact, a regulation or an order by the executive that it overstepped boundaries with respect to federal law, and therefore the biden administration is not entitled to allow people to parole in place if they, in fact, entered the country unlawfully. another win for ken paxton, at

least at the district court level. katy, as you right, rightly noted, ken paxton has brought a litany of lawsuits against various administrative efforts of the biden administration, whether immigration or in other fields, where they can't get laws through, due to lack of cooperation from their colleagues in the house and senate. this is just yet another attempt by ken paxton to seek a favorable forum in a federal court in texas to enjoin a nationwide effort at solving a problem that exists in places throughout the country and not just where ken paxton lives. >> thank you very much. a tour de force for us. we appreciate it. still ahead, a man held hostage by hamas for 326 days is rescued. how the idf got him back and what is being done now to stop polio from spreading across gaza. it's already a problem there. plus, what can get done if vp kamala harris wins the white house but democrats lose the senate. a reality check in a moment. first, it's the economy.

but there's no one way to tackle it. we'll go through the fundamentally different approaches both harris and donald trump have to grow business and help americans save more. we're back in 90 seconds. by . are now being analyzed and restored using the power of dell ai. ♪ when bad allergies hit, trust claritin to keep you in the game. (♪♪) nothing is proven more effective for 24-hour, non-drowsy allergy relief in 1 pill. live claritin clear. (♪♪) with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley

no matter what kind of teeth you gotta brush, oral-b electric cleans better with one simple touch. oral-b's dentist inspired round brush head hugs em, cleans em, and gets in between em, for 100% cleaner teeth. your perfect clean starts with oral-b. why not debate her? >> they already know everything. >> they say trump's not doing the debate.

it's the same thing they say now. right now i say why should i do a debate? i'm leading in the polls. everybody knows her, everybody knows me. >> when i looked at the hostility of that and said why am i doing it? >> there aren't chickens there alongside donald trump. the taunter is becoming the taunted with the harris complain calling donald trump a chicken for suggesting he might drop out of their first debate adding those chicken noises. joining us now, nbc news correspondent von hillyard. all right. so the debate. there's news on it. >> there's news on it i don't know if the chickens had any role in it or not. donald trump put out on social media a few minutes ago he and the harris team have agreed to that september 10th debate on abc keeping the same rules as joe biden and donald trump had in the cnn debate back in june. of course that's from the donald trump side of this. >> does that mean mics off? >> that would mean mics off. there's one source we have here at this point and that would be

donald trump himself on his social media. we'll wait to hear if the harris team affirms the words coming from -- >> we'll watch our social media to see what brian fallon posts. taunting from the harris campaign, this is new for donald trump. he's not used to being taunted effectively at least, especially on social media where these things are taking if fire. any indication that campaign or candidate is being affected by this? >> donald trump is very keenly aware of what is happening, and, of course, social media is one of those places. there's a reason why there is an ad buy that the trump campaign put up in palm beach, florida, not because they need to win over voters of balm beach but because donald trump is watching the airwaves. whether that ad with the chickens made its way to donald trump i'm not sure, but we know donald trump is sensitive. h.r. mcmaster said that donald trump is very susceptible to

public opinion and the words of others, so clearly potentially this led him maybe to the september 10th debate. >> susceptible to flattery. news on the transition team. we have rfk and tulsi gabbard. >> tulsi gabbard. correct. the two one-time democrats who notably both after 2016 donald trump's win met with donald trump at trump tower. fast forward all these years, the trump campaign is saying they are both a part of this transition team here. you know, i think potentially unusual additions. >> today news that rfk once found the carcass of a whale and chainsawed its head off and strapped it to the family van and drove it home. >> we don't know the deal of why rfk went to endorse donald trump and what what that arrangement looked like. i know from conversations with kennedy voters who said all these stories aside of having a whale's head sawed off and put

on the family vehicle, right, the reality is there are voters that wanted to vote for mr. kennedy and i talked to a great many who said if kennedy were not to be in this race, they would vote for donald trump. so that's where we find ourselves. >> seems to be a quid pro quo involved. any idea what that is? >> he wants a role and talked about health adviser type of role, that could be the health and human services secretary position. it's unclear. of course donald trump and him had two at one time different views of vaccines. while donald trump was trying to roll out operation warp speed and get the vaccination out, it was rfk who was condemning the fda's giving of the preliminary approval for vaccines to be disseminated. the question here is, can these two men, if he's valued of having mr. kennedy inside the cabinet, politically there is advantage. there were maybe, 1, 2, 3% of

americans that wanted kennedy. for donald trump that could be enough and if you make kennedy happy putting him on your transition team it's not a bad political move. >> thank you very much. and jd vance today is in battleground michigan talking about the economy and he's defending donald trump's tax plan. joining us now, "the new york times" white house economics reporter, jim tankersly. thanks so much for being here with us. let's talk about the economy. kamala harris and donald trump have fundamentally different takes on how to fix the economy, how to boost it. can you give it to me -- can you give me both of their ideas concisely? >> yes. concisely, i mean they're both talking about using the power of government to try to reduce costs for people. they're talking about it in different ways. kamala harris wants to use a combination of incentives and new government spending to try to inject more competition into certain markets like food and groceries. she wants to maybe do a version

of a price gouging ban on a federal level. all ways to sort of make more competition in the economy to bring prices down for people. then she wants to give people more money, particularly parents, in order to afford the higher cost of living. trump wants to give people more money via tax cuts that would be largely toward corporations and toward high earners, but would actually go to everybody, by extending his signature tax cuts and also tell auto insurance companies they have to lower rates somehow, and do -- open up more federal land for oil and gas drilling to boost the supply of energy. really different thoughts here, obviously, and a lot of details that we don't know from both of them, but, you know, harris at least has put out some white papers and trump by and large has not. >> the tariffs that donald trump is proposing could potentially drive up costs a lot for americans. at the same time, though, they poll well among voters. how do you square that circle?

>> well, trump is trying to sell voters on the idea that hey, you don't pay the costs of tariffs. i'm going to charge foreign country morse money and that will magically bring a lot of manufacturing jobs back to the united states. what most economic researchers would tell us that's not true. consumers and retailers in the united states would pay the cost of american tariffs, and, you know, we saw that when trump was president. he put tariffs on washing machines, and it got more expensive to buy a washing machine. people respond to the idea of manufacturing jobs and for good reason, for generations they have been very high-paying jobs for a lot of americans, and people miss them. so when trump is talking about or vance talking about efforts to boost manufacturing, it's very popular in the same way it was, you know, for president biden when he was campaigning and talking about manufacturing jobs. >> that is understandable missing those jobs and something that sustained your family. i want to ask you about the federal reserve. donald trump also talks about having more control of it and having more control over

interest rates in particular, saying they're too high and they should be driven down forcefully. what effect does that have? >> well, what we've seen in a lot of other countries is that when the federal reserve, their equivalent, a central bank becomes politicized, you run a big risk of inflation getting out of control because right now investors trust that the fed is by and large not political, it's going to make decisions based on what's best for the economy, and if trump starts telling the fed we want interest rates back down closer to zero like they were before, that could just be way too much of a jolt for the economy, things could overheat again. we could see a big run in inflation and people might not trust the fed to get it back under control. when i talk to economists they worry a lot about this idea of politicizing the fed, particularly the way trump talks about it. >> i have to have you come on and talk about kamala harris. we've run out of time. thank you so much for joining us. >> thanks. check out the qr code on your screen. use it to buy tickets to an

event, a cool event taking place in brooklyn, on saturday, september 7th. it's called "msnbc live democracy 2024." it's all of us here getting together to talk about this election and what's coming next. so please join us. we would love to have you. coming up, what gets done if the republicans get control of the senate and kamala harris wins the white house? first, though, what the idf did to rescue a hostage today. resc. pneumonia vaccine. so am i. because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. come on. i already got a pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of prevnar 20®. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes, copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia. prevnar 20® is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that cause pneumococcal pneumonia. in just one dose.

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where there was only one pediatrician to serve more than 10,000 children. daniel lurie said, i'm going to help. we opened a clinic for our most vulnerable children. i have worked shoulder to shoulder with him as we have brought solutions where people thought the problem was unsolvable. daniel doesn't take excuses. he holds himself accountable. and i know that he can do it for the city of san francisco. the moment i met him i knew he was my soulmate. "soulmates." soulmate! [giggles] why do you need me? [laughs sarcastically] but then we switched to t-mobile 5g home internet. and now his attention is spent elsewhere. but i'm thinking of her the whole time. that's so much worse. why is that thing in bed with you? this is where it gets the best signal from the cell tower! i've tried everywhere else in the house! there's always a new excuse. well if we got xfinity you wouldn't have to mess around with the connection. therapy's tough, huh? -mmm. it's like a lot about me. [laughs] a home router should never be a home wrecker. oo this is a good book title.

an israel citizen taken by hamas and held hostage for more than ten months was rescued in what the israeli military calls a complex operation in southern gaza. the 52-year-old bedouin father of 11 was kidnapped from his security card job at a packing factory in kibbutz. the israeli defense forces released this video of him moments after he was rescued. the hostage families forum, critical of the israeli government for failing to reach an agreement to free the captives, said in a statements that his return home, quote, is nothing short of miraculous. however, we must remember military operations alone cannot free the remaining 108 hostages who have suffered 326 days of abuse and/or terror. a negotiated deal is the only way forward.

joining us now, nbc news international correspondent danielle hamgenning in haifa. do we know how the idf was able to locate him? >> well, they're not giving out too many details. qaid farhan alkadi, 52, is the eighth hostage to be found alive, the first one to be found in a tunnel. we don't have that much information, but a -- an israeli military official telling nbc the following that troops were operating in a complex underground system where hostages were suspected of being held along with hamas fighters and explosives and lessons were learned from previous events. they're referring to the incident in december when the idf accidentally shot three of the hostages. he was found alone. he's in stable condition. this doesn't appear to be similar to the operation, the elaborate operation, that saved the three other hostages back in

june. now he's been reunited with his family. i mean, really heartwarming images coming out here. what has been the case with every hostage that has returned home, relatives of the other hostages, want to know if he has any information about their loved ones, their condition, their whereabouts. we have 108 hostages left, two of them have been held since 2014 according to the idf, a third of them are presumed dead. >> it's difficult stuff. the cease-fire negotiation is still ongoing. do we have any news regarding any progress? >> there are two main obstacles here and they have to do with the partial and full withdraw of israeli forces. one has to do with what's called the corridor, the road that runs east to west in gaza, effectively cutting the strip in half. the israelis want a presence to screen palestinians as they go back and forth from north to

south. palestinians say they will -- this will prevent the free movement of palestinians on palestinian land. the other issue here is this buffer zone, the strip of land between gaza and egypt. israel does not want hamas to be able to smuggle in weapons like it did in the past, and so it wants a presence there. egypt does not want the israelis on their doorstep so those are the two main obstacles, and no breakthrough, no progress on that front. >> i'm running out of time, i want to ask you about the humanitarian effort in gaza and the distribution of the polio vaccine. >> first case in 25 years. a 10-month-old baby, now partially paralyzed. they have to vaccinate 630,000 children. the vaccines have arrived. u.n. agencies have urged both sides for a humanitarian pause so they can begin this campaign, but i guess they'll have to do it without it. what i wanted to share with you, however, there are evacuation

orders in place in areas and zones previously designated as safe zones. tens of thousands are having to evacuate yet again, probably the 13th or 14th time this month. the hospital is in one of those zones. only patients who are unable to move have stayed behind. i asked one aide worker what the situation was like on the ground. this is what they wrote to me this morning. the warehouses are either unreachable or empty. the trucks that get across are being looted. there is no expletive soap. the kids are dying of preventable diseases. there is nowhere for anybody to go. that is the situation on the ground at the moment. danielle, thank you. coming up, the man who will do anything for donald trump. joins us for her latest with the atlantic on who would join a second trump administration. with the exception of george w. bush every president since bill clinton has had control of both chambers of congress early in

their first term. what happens if kamala harris wins the white house, but democrats lose the senate? mocra?

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why why wh in order to enact the policy proposals that harris is touting on the campaign trail she will need a willing partner in congress. if republicans get ahold of one of the two houses legislating her agenda will be difficult. joining us former press secretary to former house

speakers john boehner and paul ryan political analyst brendon book also with us msnbc political contributor mark leibovich. this is an idea you pitched, you were worried that congress, which is already a do nothing place, will get worse if there's a harris president and a republican senate? >> i don't think most people appreciate for the last five presidents, they have all had the trifecta, the white house, the house and the senate, when they came in for their first two years in office and that's how so many were able to get legislation they're remembered for. joe biden passed the american rescue plan and inflation reduction act, the bush and the trump tax cuts, obama care under barack obama. all happened because their party controlled congress. a lot ended up losing congress after that. if you're going to be able to have any type of sweeping legislative agenda when you come in and don't control the senate it's really out of your hands at that point. we're probably going to be

forced then to look at bipartisan legislating, not something we've done a lot of in recent years. i say that because republicans are very favored right now to control the senate. democrats have 51 seats right now. they are likely to lose the west virginia seat and montana, another place that will be difficult for republicans to hold their seat. republicans in charge, very few democratic pick-up opportunities and you may have a harris white house that can't do much legislatively off the bat. >> it feels worse for a reason, only 27 bills have been passed in 2023 so far. the 104th, 112th, i'm sorry that's last year, only 27 bills. 104th, 112th and 113th congresses in which republicans controlled one or both chambers with democrats bill clinton and

barack obama in the white house passed between 70 and 73 laws. there was some bipartisan effort to get things done. 23 or 27 bills last year. brendon, how much worse can it get? >> i imagine most of those 20-something bills are pretty minuscule, small things that don't add up to a whole lot. you know, it's a difficult legislative environment in any situation, but i will remind everybody as well, there are some very important things that have to get done next year. remember the debt limit, that's coming back next year. and, of course, the expiration of all of the tax cuts that happened under donald trump are set to or a lot of them are set to expire and that's going to be a huge fight. she's going to have her hands full one way or the other. she may lack that signature legislative achievement so many presidents are able to run on. we don't know if she's going to win but in the scenario she does, those first two years are usually critical. that's where you leave your mark. if you have divided government

particularly if the house takes over kiss it goodbye. we could get that done sometimes, it's much smaller in scale than we're used to. >> i wonder if things would be not get done in the first two years if that would boost your control of congress for the second two years of her administration if she wins. historically we've seen the person at the top and the white house lose control of congress for their second two years of their first term. maybe this would flip it on its face, mark. >> this has been a tight split over the last two and four years in the senate and house. you got the ukraine deal done, you got this debt ceiling done, budgets done, the inflation reduction -- i mean actually can be done. i also think a lot of it depends on who wins the presidential and

how big the senate split is. i agree with brendon in that west virginia is effectively lost. montana could be a real reach. ohio. i think possibly texas and florida could be, you know, long shots for democrats. either way, i will say, though, that if trump loses, the gop could look a lot different a year from now or even six months from now. you know, you could have a very tight senate split. i think murkowski and collins, maybe tillis a couple other republicans, could be not so much radicalized but actually -- what is the word, moderate -- >> empowered to moderate. >> well yes. if trump loses, there will be a different energy in the republican party possibly moving back -- >> that was the question i wanted to get to, if donald trump loses, is it -- is it

crazy to think the party might change? we've been talking about this since he came on the scene, mitch mcconnell talking about candidate quality. he lost in 2018, 2020, lost in 2022 or didn't win as much as the republicans should have in 2022. is it far fetched, mark, to believe they're going to change, moderate, in a different way, become a new party if donald trump loses again? >> i mean, we've been fooled about i this before. i would think that after losing again, after the disaster of the last couple mid terms, 2020, 2024, donald trump's age and what that would look like and whatever his legal problems are going forward, you would think that that would be the thing that lets the fever break. we all remember 2021, we remember 2020, we remember the fever allegedly being ready to break any number of times. we'll see. >> mark and brendon, gentlemen, we will see. thank you very much.

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we've got another letter signed by a whole bunch of notable republicans saying that they are endorsing vp kamala harris. this time more than 200 folks who worked for both bushes, romney or mccain, are all doing this. and like the other endorsement letters before it, it is less about the democratic candidate than it is the republican, who in this case they call

untenable. what does that mean? "at the lantic's" has an idea, calling on kash patel, calling him the man whoelana. this was a fascinating read. there's way too much for us to get into in the limited time we have, but just when you say kash patel will do anything for trump, what does that look like in a new administration? >> it's a great question. and i think that one of the reasons in the first trump administration that so many officials from attorney general bill barr to cia director gina haskel was that they didn't quite know what he was capable of. so, i think a good comparison is someone like steven miller, who is quite known for, you know,

right-wing immigration agenda. also his loyalty to donald trump but has a clear ideological agenda, the contours of which we generally know. with kash patel, to the extent you could describe him as having yn ideology is just loyalty to trump. this the second trump term, there's a great unknown. what would that mean on day one if kash patel were in office? we know he's talked before about being very intent on carrying on you trump's desire for personal revenge on members of the media, leftists who he believes wronged him in his first term, so i think he will have -- should trump take office, should kash assume a role alongside him, a very personal, ananomus-driven agenda. >> why does trump like him so much? >> quite a few officials around trump are not great fans of kash patel and have actually worked

rather hard to distance him from the president. but donald trump through it all has maintained, you know, a great affection for kash patel. one, i think, particularly telling quote i got from a long-time trump adviser was that trump said to this person once, i know people think kash is crazy. i think he's a little crazy, but sometimes you need a little crazy. so, another way of looking at that as this adviser told me is that trump believes kash patel is the person he did go to and say essentially, hey, i'm not telling you to break into the dnc, but it would be really gray if x, y, z were to happen. >> yeah. so, the opposite of that question is, what does kash patel want? >> as i narrate in the piece a bit, when you look at his own story, even before he met trump, through his career at doj, before that he was a federal prosecutor in miami, he had

about a decade or -- excuse me, six years or so under his belt in federal government before he joined devin nunes on the house intelligence committee to investigate the russian interference in the election. so, he's had his own grievances with the national security establishment w the media establishment, so the way i think about it often is that in some ways donald trump's personal grievances, kash patel shares them from a more personal way. >> you talk about a lot of the merch he has online, the bottle, the fight with kash punisher reversible scarf, $25. take a lap rhino tank tops, justice for all, january 6 tees, golf polos, books, children's books. there's a whole lot more but i'm out of time. go to "the atlantic," called

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