hi, everybody. it's 4:00 in washington. i'm jen psaki in today for nicolle wallace. you can ask someone to find 11,000 votes in georgia, we know someone who did, or you can go out and earn them. that's how it should be done. stump for them, shake hands, kiss a lot of babies for them. show up places where people might be priced to see you because their community is very much in favor of your opponent. you're wondering why you're there. even in the course of an election both candidates insist is the most important of our lifetimes, there's nothing quite like a good old-fashioned barnstorming. with that plane door opening in savannah moments ago, right there, vice president harris, back on the trail in a freshly painted bus. maybe we'll get to see inside the bus. we'll see over the next two hours.

we should expect to see more of them we'll bring that to you as it comes as well. their mission over the next day and a half in georgia is to boldly go where so few democrats, at least ones running for president lately, have gone before. south georgia. politico calls it a high risk-high reward strategy extending down into southeastern counties rural and red as they are. it's also all a part of of a remarkable shift in course. as nbc news notes this was not a state, at least in the past couple months, the bypass team was begtsz on for november at all. but the switch to vice president harris appears to have awoken something inside the party, maybe inside georgia. a renewed optimism that maybe 2020 wasn't a fluke, that maybe georgia really is a battleground state that everybody should be competing in every four years. don't take our word for it. ask the chairman of the republican party. here's what they had to say.

i was very, very comfortable that it would be, not an easy win, but would be a four or five-point win. i think it's going to be a little tighter now because i think she's energized a few of the democrats that were not energized before and they seem to be a little more active. the party will hope to recreate the success it had last cycle when senator raphael warnock's winning strategy included appealing to many voters showing up places nobody expect them to show up. as nbc news reported, quote, to win georgia, harris will need to reproduce the formula that powered biden and warnock, boosting turnout and mobilizing democrats in deep blue atlanta, putting big points on the board in the population rich suburbs, full of well-educated voters skeptical of trump and limiting her margin of defeat in a vast and solidly red rural areas losing by less could hinder the state's 16 electoral vote. that's the plan for today and tomorrow. hopping from county to county, small town to small town,

culminating in a rally tomorrow back in savannah. if you can believe it there are just ten tuesdays left until election day. a georgia win would be quite a win in november. democrats still have their work cut out for them, but it appears that harris and walz are getting to work. that's where we start today with former atlanta mayor and adviser to the harris-walz campaign keisha lance bottoms. you know a thing or two about georgia politics and seen a lot happen over the past couple weeks. start with this overall strategy, because there's often a lot of focus on atlanta running up the vote totally in atlanta, but it's hard to win statewide without running up totals in other places. what do you think of this bus tour strategy into south georgia >> >> this is a campaign who is listening. as i said on the floor next to a delegate this past week in chicago, he said, i think walz and harris would be great coming through rural parts of georgia and now they are doing just

that. we have about nearly 12 million people in georgia, about half of that population is in the metro area, so that means there are a lot of other folk out there throughout georgia and for as much as i love atlanta we say get out of atlanta. there are a lot of active communities throughout the state and even when you think of a place like savannah where senator warnock is from, that's a completely different media market. you've got places like columbus, macon, augusta, savannah, chatham county, one of the largest counties in the state. just west of that, another county one of the fastest growing in the nation. i'm very happy to see that the campaign is there, and i can tell you the people are so excited to see that they are getting the attention they deserve from this campaign. >> georgia, if you look back at the margins, i looked them up today, because we think it's interesting for people to note this, trump's margin in 2016 was

211,000 votes. biden's margin in 2020, 11,000 votes. some of this is kind of campaigning in places where people don't have -- haven't gone before. there are issues that the harris-walz campaign is talking about like rural health care. what are the other issues you hope they're talking about as they're out there and people really need to hear about in georgia to consider this ticket? >> well, we know that immigration is a big topic of discussion throughout this state. we also know there are a lot of conversations surrounding the economy, and i think what you will see is the vice president and governor walz will go out and talk about how the biden-harris administration has delivered to this state, although republicans seem to love to take credit for those things that are coming from this administration and no republican voted to support the things coming from this administration, but nfrls it's made a difference in the state. we know that immigration is a big topic of discussion and also

we talk about labor shortages throughout this state. so those kitchen table issues that impact our communities, i'm sure we'll hear talk about how they have delivered directly to mayors and to counties so that we can put things in place to help with the crime surge that we saw during the trump administration and the covid pandemic. all of these things will be relevant to the people that they will see in these counties throughout the state. >> it's so interesting, you're a very savvy politician, i don't have to tell you, you bring up immigration and crime, these are two of the issues trump may be nonsensical when at speeches but those are two issues they are spending money on, the trump campaign and the republicans, on the airwaves around georgia and other parts of the country. what do you think, it's not on the level as my mother would say, what do you think people need to know and understand about the harris record and her positions on immigration and

crime to kind of combat all of that money that's being spent on the airwaves? >> yeah. jen, i was mayor when trump was president, and it was complete chaos and so much of it was driven from what was coming from the white house. and i remember my first meeting in the white house, you may remember that, it was in march of '21 where we sat down and we talked with a bipartisan group of mayors and governors about what we needed in our respective communities, and we talked about getting money directly into the hands of leaders so that we could reinforce the strategies we had put in place to help address this crime surge. that was a crime surge that happened under the trump administration in cities across america. also with immigration. there was a bipartisan immigration bill ready to go, and donald trump said, it wouldn't be good for his election. so this is not a candidate who is serious about resolving the issues in our country, and i

know that vice president harris will continue to hone in on that. when we had that meeting in the oval office, she was sitting right there in that meeting next to president biden to help us address some of the issues that we were facing in our respective communities. >> part of what we've been talking about a little bit and we just quoted the chairman of the republican -- gwinnett republican county party is sort of the surge of energy. you were a big supporter of president biden. president biden's candidacy. you're a big supporter of vice president harris' candidacy. there seems to have been a surge in energy over the past couple weeks. what are you hearing from people in georgia in terms of democrats and people who may have been sitting on the sidelines a month ago? >> what i always say, my favorite motto from campaigning is the streets don't lie. when the streets are excited, when you're going in the grocery store and the hair salon and the barber shop and people are talking, they are excited, we had so much energy coming out of

the convention, people are still talking about the convention, there's not a day that goes by that multiple people ask me, how was it in person? because it looked so exciting on television. so the energy is real. now we just have to make sure that we carry that energy on into the election. my 22-year-old son has received four mailers in the last week from the donald trump campaign. so what it says is that they aren't leaving anything to chance. for as much as we have excitement, we've got to take it directly to the people. that's the way we did it in '21, that's the way we did it in '22 and that's the way we did it in '20 and that's why we were able to send warnock and ossoff and the biden-harris administration to washington, d.c. >> such an important reminder. the convention was really exciting for everybody, but there is a lot of work ahead. i love the street don't lie. thank you so much, keisha lance

bottoms. love talking to you. thanks for starting us off this afternoon. let's bring in our panel, msnbc political analyst and democratic strategist cornell belcher is here. also joining us executive director of republican voters against trump and publisher of "the bulwark" sara longwell, also host of the podcast the amendment, political analyst erin paynes. cornell, you're here in studio. let me start with you. georgia would be a great win for the harris-walz team and it's on the east coast and give people some sort of soothing moment. >> stop panicking. >> earlyish in the evening. but talk to me a little bit about what's happening on the ground. it's a combination of strategies as they say. you need to run up the vote in the atlanta suburbs and you also need to shrink the margins in the other parts of georgia. what do they need to do in order to win there? >> a couple notes, right. if you look at what's happening

in the big run up in the suburbs, look t it's interesting, we were talking to the gop leader from gwinnett county. gwinnett was a solidly republican county when i was working on the obama campaign in 2012. romney carried gwinnett by 10 points. biden was able to carry gwinnett in 2020 and got 100,000 more votes out of gwinnett than we did in 2012, which helps explain it. if you look at that sort of middle of georgia running from augusta to columbus, there is a thin light blue belt that is emerging of county downs there. it makes all the sense in the world to go down there and sort of energize and make those counties blue and lower the margins and the red point. you have democratic energy but this is the other thing happening. donald trump is turning off moderate voters, right. there's a reason why a kemp can win georgia -- >> many aspects. >> so many.

look at the women and the misogyny and the taking away your right to decide what happens to your body. so biden won moderate voters in georgia by 32 points. right. and it is hard and trump campaign can make inroads with moderate middle of the road voters who have been breaking republican in georgia beginning sort of move democratic and we saw that in '20 and also as my former client pointed out we saw that in the senate races and the midterm races that happened. >> there's interesting trends. it still is a hard -- still is a state harder to win than some other states in some ways. erin, you were born and raised in georgia. i was asking keisha lance bottoms this question, what are you hearing from people about what's going on on the ground and how things have shifted over the last couple weeks? >> yeah. absolutely. atlanta native here, checking in. listen, i mean mayor bottoms was right. there are 158 other counties in georgia that do not include atlanta, and i mean they are a

target rich environment for any candidate that is willing to go out and try to earn those votes. so vice president harris and governor walz are in the state and in this particular part of the state directly coming out of the convention. i think really sends a message that they understand that these are voters in place. the risk is not in getting outside of atlanta this year. this is a part of the state, i know, i hear from young people who are in many of the historically black colleges down there, hoping that they might have a chance to see, you know, somebody like a vice president harris. you talked about the rural health care issue. this is a part of the state where rural hospitals disappeared, people disproportionately died during covid, but also wanted to get back to work, where people are still worried about the price of groceries and gas, right, and they want to know what this, you know, what vice president harris could potentially be doing for them. so governor brian kemp may be popular in georgia. he certainly is. he's not on the ballot this year. harris is showing she's willing to work for those votes too.

in terms of how she's doing that, one thing that, you know, we have a story up on the 19th right now about the conservative suburban white women in a lot of these women that harris and walz are going to, who may be open to the message that harris has been talking about in terms of patriotism and reframing that. what it means to have a healthy democracy, issues like abortion or gun violence or paid family leave. this is a message that could resonate with them in those parts of the state. this is -- these are the kinds of issues they are telling us they care about and they want to hear about from the candidates, and it could resonate with black voters outside of cities. people forget that this part of georgia is also part of the black belt, rural people are black people too, and they vote especially in presidential years where, you know, they're not necessarily limited to districts that have been gerrymandered by republicans. in presidential years they do feel like their vote, you know, may pack a lot more punch and so you'll see them turn out if they

are courted and spoken to by candidates. >> yeah. the showing up makes a different strategy kind of sounds obvious, one that obama ran on, obviously, war knock ran on. let me ask you, i guess putting it diplomatically to say that georgia is a complicated political state for the republican party, but what's interesting [ inaudible ] geoff duncan the former lieutenant governor spoke at the democratic convention last week, i want to play that and talk to you after that about just kind of all the republican players in this and how much they matter. >> my journey started to this podium years ago when i realized donald trump was willing to lie, cheat, and steal to try to overturn the 2020 election. i realized trump was a direct threat to democracy, and his actions disqualified him from ever, ever, ever stepping foot into the oval office again. agan

if you vote for kamala harris in 2024, you're not a democrat. you're a patriot. >> i didn't think it was going to move maga voters but it was giving license to support harris. but i want to -- [ inaudible ] campaigning for trump and campaigning with him. how much do all of these republican figures in georgia who are -- many of whom are quite popular matter? >> well, they matter in the sense that donald trump continues to lose georgia in part because he attacks the very popular republicans in the state. you know, most recently he was attacking brian kemp and brian kemp's wife which really upset a lot of the women in the state who are supporters of the kemp family and like them.

he also attacks brad raffensperger, the secretary of state, he called up to say hey, i need you to go find me 11,000 votes. and so many of the republican political figures there in georgia who have refused to overturn the election as donald trump wanted them to do, donald trump has been attacking them relentlessly and because of the fact that georgia's one of the places where donald trump really like put the pressure on to overturn the election, every time he's in georgia, he talks about the election, and it being stolen from him and about raffensperger and kemp not doing what it took, and voters are sick of that. they are bored. i mean, except for the very maga base, who, you know, want to be aggrieved over the 2020 election, the vast majority of the swing voters, soft republicans, the right leaning independents, moderates, many of whom their votes are sort of up for grabs and they've been

decisive in these elections the last couple cycles they really don't like that grievance based the election was stolen narrative and that's the one that trump seems to put forward the most in georgia which continues to cost republicans that state. >> he gets whiney in georgia, is another way of saying it. no one is going anywhere. we'll keep talking about this and keep our eye on the georgia bus tour. when we come back we'll show you how the harris campaign intends to, as they say, showcase every day donald trump's plan for unchecked power should he return to the white house in november. their latest national ad campaign on the dangers of project 2025 and to mute or not to mute. the latest on the debate over muted microphones at what could be the only face-off between the two presidential candidates between now and november. why letting an unhinged proven liar speak freely may be what the harris campaign is looking for. democrats preparing for what

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campaign bussing its way through south georgia as we speak the race is on to convince swing voters there and elsewhere that a second donald trump term would represent a threat to our way of life. part of that effort is hammering home the difference between the disgraced ex-president and project 2025. that's where this brand new ad comes from that we want to show it to you. >> donald trump's back and he's

out for control. >> i would [ inaudible ] after them. >> complete control. >> i will wield that power aggressively. >> he has plan to get it. >> detailed plans for what our movement will do. >> project 2025, a 922-page blueprint to make donald trump the most powerful president ever. overhauling the department of justice. giving trump the unchecked power to seek vengeance. eliminating the department of education and defunding k through 12 scores. requiring the government to monitor women's pregnancies and severe cuts to medicare and social security. donald trump may try to deny it, but those are donald trump's plans. >> revenge does take time, i will say that. sometimes revenge can be justified. >> he'll take control and we'll pay the price. >> i'm kamala harris and i approve this message. >> we're back with cornell, sara, and erin.

cornell, project 2025 was not even on anyone's radar a couple months ago. it wasn't even on the broad public's radar i should say. democrats have spent a lot of time talking about it. it is a horrifying document, 900 pages on the heritage website. a lot in there which that ad touched on. it was also at the convention. >> a lot. >> it's easy sometimes for these things to become removed from people's lives. what do you think needs to be done in ads and as we talk about this to make it salient with people? >> i'm going to get in the weeds a little bit for our viewers because we have smart viewers and like being in the weeds on the show. democrats, i would argue, don't always do a great job on messaging and getting in line and being uniformed on our messaging. this project 2025 is amazing how in a short period of time, we have made this into the boogie man issue of this campaign. in all the polling project 2025, it is less favorable than

republican party overall brand, less favorable than the maga brand. project 2025 is perfect. also look, if you look at that commercial, as a pollster, there's like a -- we look for the six or seven things that are most problematic for voters to pull out from this humongous book and what they landed on were the things most problematic, especially for the middle of the road voters. so going after the sort of defining project 2025 as this extreme thing. they got to keep pushing it. we can't allow an inch of space between donald trump and j.d. vance and what -- and their project 2025 because the blueprint frightens most middle of the road. >> i want to bring sara and erin in. there's a choice how you spend your money on ads, right, and decide who you're trying to appeal to, where you should run ads. a whole strategy behind it.

who do you think these project 2025 ads are trying to appeal to, democrats, independents, everyone, and above? do you agree with spending money on these ads? >> i probably wouldn't have a couple months ago, but i watched it happen in real-time and it happened during the period where there was a debated about whether or not joe biden should step down, and i watched this in the focus groups, what was going on, were voters who didn't want biden to step down and were frustrated, saying why are we talking about joe biden's age. why aren't we talking about project 2025? and it was this thing that like organically bubbled up and captured the voters' attention and now in the focus groups it's all over. i hear voteders talking about it all the time. what's interesting about the way they talk about it is, they say, have you heard about project 2025? i mean, it's crazy what's in there. what do you think is in there? well, i think it's this, it's this. they don't really have a ton of context. they know it's bad. why ads like this are important.

you have to put meat on the bones to help people articulate why the agenda, the policy agenda, of republicans and trump, is something to be fearful of, right. that's what you're trying to do, say you do not want to live in a world where this project 2025 is being implemented but you have to give people specifics otherwise they're going to keep repeating it like it's a scary boogie man without being able to articulate to people why it would impact their lives. swing voters are paying attention and they know about project 2025. they know it exists and it's scary, but you have to help make it -- take that next step and make sure they understand what it is about it that will impact their lives. >> no question. totally agree. although it is good for the harris-walz campaign. people think the plan for the next term is so bad, that's their reaction. erin, let me ask you about what is not a real controversy, a faux controversy from the right,

in my view at least, whether or not harris is doing enough interviews, doing enough press conferences. she answers questions a lot of times, a lot of the time when she stops, does gaggles, things like that. she's doing an interview with cnn tomorrow with dana bash that we'll all see. how many of these -- this is a balance of your time as a candidate. it's good to do interviews. but what is your -- what is the balance for her between doing more of these, needing to prep for them, and also being out there on the campaign trail? hours are not unlimited. >> hour are not unlimited when you are the sitting vice president and that's your other day job, right, as not just candidate for president on the ballot. i mean, listen, she's doing this first interview. she said she was going to do it by the end of the month. that's going to happen tomorrow. as vice president i will say she did something like 30 or 40 interviews, albeit not necessarily with members of the traditional press corps, who cover her, i'm thinking about the interviews she's done on

podcasts or shows like jimmy kimmel or drew barrymore, where she was focused on sitting down with folks who have audiences she's trying to speak to directly because those audiences are voters, right. you know, as she was trying to familiarize and get the american people familiarized with her, i think she's going to continue to do that. she's got a debate to focus on coming up on september 10th after that and trying to get in i think you will probably see more of these interviews in the meantime. what goal is for the campaign, i don't have to tell you, jen, probably at ads with what the goal is for the political press corps. i mean she, i think, is probably still, coming out of this convention, very much still introducing herself to the american people. she's been the candidate for all of a month. she's been the official nominee for less time than that, barely a week. introducing herself to the american people and trying to tell them, you know, what her vision is for this country i think that is kind of her

priority, instead of -- and not just, you know, doing these sit down interviews, however these sit down interviews, i think, can be a part of how she accomplishes that goal, although like i said, that might not necessarily be a goal that is the same as the goal that some of us may have as journalists. >> we have to sneak in a very quick break. i want to ask you quickly, cornell, about 30 seconds or less, do voters care about whether or not she does interviews? interviews are important. i'm not trying to under value that? do voters care? is it on their minds? >> no. >> with that, we're going to sneak in a quick break. coming up next, the debate over the debate of microphones, why letting trump speak as freely as he wants could work in harris' favor. we'll show you all of that coming up next. your shipping manager left to “find themself.”

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when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. . in 13 days, americans could get their first and, perhaps, only opportunity to see vice president kamala harris and ex-president donald trump on equal footing on a debate stage. yesterday, mr. any time, any place, said he will be there on september 10th. but there seems to be one big issue that's still unresolved. whether or not the mics of both candidates will be live for the entire time. now the harris campaign would very much like them to be on so you, me, everyone watching can hear all the crazy things he says. for the trump team, they are less keen on that, safe to say, for the exact same reason. cornell, sara and erin are back.

i want to start, the wonderful team at "deadline" pulled up some past performance moments of trump to remind us all about the microphones. i want to play those and then we'll talk about it. >> under the current mayor crime has continued to drop including murders. >> you're wrong. you're wrong. >> no, i'm not. >> you're telling the enemy everything you want to do. >> no, we're not. >> no wonder you've been fighting -- no wonder you've been fighting isis your entire adult life. >> that's a -- go to the -- please, the fact checkers, get to work. it's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you would be in jail. i want to make sure. >> can you let him finish, sir. >> he doesn't know how to do that. >> i'm not going to answer the

question. >> why won't you answer that question -- >> radical left. >> would you shut up, man. >> that's the person with very little self-control. so i feel pretty strongly that the mics being on is a real key thing here. but i want to start with you, sara, what do you think as to -- about the harris campaign pushing so hard for it and what it will show the public? >> yeah. look, absolutely they should fight for him to have the mics unmuted because the more that voters see of donald trump, the less they like him. and everything, whether it is kicking trump off twitter or facebook, whether it's having the mic feud, whether it's not showing his rallies, the more you hide from the american people, the more you allow the rules of the game to protect him from himself, then the less voters are able to see him clearly. you want people to see him clearly. donald trump, in that clip that

you just played, against biden when they debated in 2020, that was it for trump. i remember doing focus groups with voters after that debate and they thought trump was unhinged, out of control, and that was the thing that turned a lot of people who at that point were on the fence, that was the thing that pushed them against trump. you got to understand, the biggest coalition in american politics is in the anti-trump coalition. you do have to remind people what it is that they don't like about trump. you know, it's not so much policies. they just think trump is crazy, nuts, unpredictable and when he shows them that, that's the thing that pushes undecided voters to the place i can't vote for this guy too much. >> which is so interesting because it's like a knee-jerk moment watching it. i want to play some of harris, it's important to remember, it's different who you debate against, play that and talk about that too. >> this is important -- >> i -- >> mr. vice president, i'm speaking. >> i have to weigh in.

>> 15 more seconds and we'll give the vice president a chance. >> thank you. i want to ask the american people, how [ inaudible ] when you were panicked when you were going to get your next roll of toilet paper. how calm were you when your kids were sent home from school and you didn't know when they could go back? >> so to put it mildly, donald trump is not as polite as mike pence. not a lot of other things. it's about people being matched up in a debate. we haven't seen harris and trump match up. trump has debated a lot. if you're the harris team they're preparing for this even though they're on the bus tour. what are you thinking about as you're watching past debates and tapes of trump. >> i have to underline what sara was pointing out here. one of the things that's missing from this conversation about the last presidential debate between biden and trump is sort of overshadowed by biden was also trump's really poor numbers coming out of that debate. like, from the research that i've seen about that debate, voters didn't like trump at all, right. trump did not do himself any

favors in that debate. all that got overshadowed by biden. trump was not looked as favorable in that debate. again, let trump be trump. to that point where more voters see trump, the less they like him, the more they see he's unhinged and the more he rambles and divisive, the more rude he is. americans are tired of that and know in their real lives that's not real adult behavior. do we want our commander in chief behaving like that. if i'm the trump campaign mute that mic. >> we didn't play this, but i think everybody may remember the moment where trump like creepily came up behind secretary clinton during the town hall debate in 2016, and that was a very weird gendered power moment in my view. it's not -- the debate is not set up the same way, but he could do weird physical things. if you're the clinton team and

remember that moment, i mean i'm sorry, if you're the harris team and remember that moment, how are you thinking about that, like the physicality and the gross gendered way trump approaches things? >> you know, it's interesting. i actually thought about that moment, too, when i was watching the trump-clinton debate and, you know, funny story, you have the vice president harris actually remark on that debate, you know, several years ago. she called that moment weird. the way that he was stalking her. she called that moment weird. you know, that would -- that was kind of what she thought her strategy would be to trump when he, you know, actually got into clinton's physical space in the way that he did, which certainly did feel very creepy for so many people who were watching that back in 2016. no, those will not be the dynamics of this particular debate, but absolutely, i think the donald trump that we saw on

truth social last week, you know, posting during the convention, very agitated by what he was seeing on the screen night after night and with, you know, harris and walz and their message of joy, wanting voters to see that in real-time on a debate stage is certainly the goal of the harris campaign, not to mention the fact that we saw last month at the convention when donald trump is sharing the stage with a black woman it usually does not go well for him. so that -- he doesn't really have an answer, and he tends to unravel. that is certainly a possibility, and so having that happen in real-time with an unmuted mic, i think could certainly advantage the -- kamala harris who he knows is a steel debater, she proved that in 2020 and proved it when she was debating vice president pence and also, you know, obviously, her record as a

senator in the senate hearings. people are looking to see that kamala harris again on the stage on september 10th. if we get that, you know, i think this could be a very interesting 90 minutes. >> i personally hope she says you're exhibiting weird behavior right now. that's what i hope she says if that happens. we have to sneak in a very quick break again. sara and erin, thank you so much for spending time with us. we appreciate it. cornell sticking around a little bit longer and here with me on set. when we come back, we're going to talk about the revised federal indictment against donald trump. we'll look closer at what's changed and if there really could be accountability for his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss. tion loss. you founded your kayak company because you love the ocean- not spreadsheets. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire what tractor supply customers experience

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you are concerned about broad immunity. >> i was concerned about a system that appeared to provide immunity for one individual under one set of circumstances. when we have a criminal justice system that had ordinarily treated everyone the same. >> that was, of course, supreme court justice kentanji brown jackson with her first public comments that granted presidents absolute immunity for official acts. it was a decision that called into question special counsel jack smith's federal election interference case against donald trump. smith is not backing down from trying to hold the ex-president

accountable for his efforts to overturn the 2020 election. he filed a superseding indictment against trump just yesterday which was handed down by a federal grand jury. the new indictment was paired down to meet the supreme court's immunity test. the same core charges against the ex-president remain. to explain all of this stuff and what it means joining us now is former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general, my friend harry lipman. i know it's only been out for 24 hours and i know you've been tweeting about it and reading it. first, i want to ask you about why you think jack smith went with a superseding indictment, which does require, as i understand it, going to a new grand jury, there were other alternatives, roads he could have gone down that wouldn't have required that, is that right? >> that is right. he could have whittled it down, when not adding charges, you can sort of sculpt a little and present it. he made a smart decision on my part, look, we've now presented

every comma, everything in this indictment, to a whole new group. this will be the fifth grand jury, two in this case, that have judged that there's cause to indict trump. so i think it just gives extra sort of oomph and credibility to the new indictment, and doesn't get involved in any kind of confusion about was this a sort of new sentence that the previous one blessed or not, just comes out of the box with a superseding indictment. that was a big point that i think a lot of people glossed over yesterday. >> yeah. an important one. thank you for explaining it to us. one of the other pieces if you look at this, jack smith seemed to go to great lengths to characterize trump's conduct as acting as a candidate for office, right, not the president of the -- the sitting president of the united states. for example, he writes, quote, the defendant had no official responsibilities related to the certification proceedings, but he did have a personal interest as a candidate and being named the winner of the election.

he basically cut out the entire back and forth of jeffrey clark and the justice department, and he has to do this, as i understand it, because of the immunity decision. does it -- you know, obviously, that's a decision he had to make given the circumstances. does it weaken the case writ large or how do you see it from that perspective? >> he's saying it doesn't weaken the case and i can prove my entire case, all four charges as you noted, and not use the evidence the supreme court says is off limits. but as you say, he's really emphasizes the way in which trump is a candidate, nothing official about that. the presidency, yes, but a candidate is a citizen. that's not only trump but the conspirators with him. he stresses our private attorneys and the conduct wherever he can, he recharacterizes it as something that trump does as a citizen. that also goes for some of the conduct of other people.

mark meadows is a really good example. he has a paragraph saying meadows, chief of staff, but sometimes he helps candidate trump, citizen trump. those things aren't official actions. anything he can characterize thak way, jen, makes it unofficial. then there's a whole body of evidence that would still be official under what the supreme court said, but that he can argue it doesn't, in the words of the court, impair the authority and the function of the executive branch. that's a lot of legal gobbledegook to mean, though, that it's okay because it doesn't get in the way of his acting as a president. number one example, all kinds of stuff about mike pence remains, and that's certainly official action, the court says, but gives an opening for smith to make this argument. >> it's how he characterizes it, right. let me ask you before we let you go about what comes next. because this felt like it was a

big moment of breaking news, actually during this hour yesterday. what's the timeline? what are the next steps here? >> it's a great question because he's ready for a fight. so with pence in particular, there's going to be a brouhaha and trump will say no, no, no, that's official action when i'm talking to my vice president in the oval office. they will fight that out in front of judge chutkan. if she rules for smith, it's going to, again, because it's immunity, go up and down the d.c. circuit and supreme court. so in doing this, he shows that he's ready to take time, the timeline has changed now that november is not a possibility, and leaving pence in, which i think he judges really important for the case, i think translates into the real possibility of a trial in, say, 2026. it's a fight that he wants to take, but it's going to take some time, and he knows it. >> 2026.

we haven't talked about all the legal stuff so intensely in so long. thank you for helping us return to law school. we appreciate you joining us. coming up after the break, the incredible shrinking stock price of donald trump's social media company. price of donald tl media company. ading our suv when... crack! safelite came right to us, and we could see exactly when they'd arrive with a replacement we could trust. >> vo: schedule free mobile service at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill. don't take if you're allergic to sotyktu; serious reactions can occur. sotyktu can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb.

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you have to speak to everyone. vice president harris speaks to the needs of people in savannah and our partners in coastal georgia. the road to the white house goes through georgia, and the lane to that road goes through savannah and goes through coastal georgia. we know she's been engaged heavily in rural hospitals, which is importance to our neighbors in and around us, certainly the farmers helping them, $3.1 billion to invest in farmers across rural georgia. she speaks to the issues that are important to us. we're just excited that she's coming. >> hi again. i'm jen psaki in for nicolle

wallace. it's 5:00 in new york. where both are out on the campaign trail together for the first time since becoming the party's nominees last week, you can see footage from the bus tour and the new bus there. they made a statement today with the location of their bus tour in back of them. the peach state is back in play. now as nbc news reports joe biden won georgia by fewer than 12,000 votes but he did become the first democrat to carry the gop stronghold in nearly three decades. now, it's up to harris to prove whether that was a fluke or whether democrats can keep it in the blue column at the highest level. that means campaigning in atlanta and running up the totals, it means campaigning in areas that haven't always gotten attention from democrats running for president. cutting into margins in areas that have historically gone red. harris is taking a page from the senator raphael warnock playbook.

the senator telling reporters last week at the dnc, quote, we built an architecture to win. i think we can put georgia in the harris-walz column. can we do it? i absolutely believe that we can. vorpg in the "atlanta journal constitution" say elected officials also believe this is the way to win. the democratic state senator called the bus tour monumental. calvin from columbus calls it a big deal and melissa, a veteran liberal activist declared herself overjoyed. winning georgia means understanding georgia is larger than atlanta and includes our rural areas as well as our larger cities outside the perimeter who are anxious for attention. later this hour, harris and walz will make another campaign stop and tomorrow continue their tour, tape their first sit down interview and harris will hold a rally in savannah. for his part, the trump team is

not discounting georgia either. trump wanted to win there so badly, he got indicted over his efforts to overturn the results of the state. it still gets under his skin whenever he's in georgia it seems. only 70 days to go. we will soon see if the road to the white house in 2024 for the harris-walz team runs through georgia, but this is all a big start for that. that is where we start with white house correspondent mike memoli in savannah, georgia, following the harris-walz bus campaign and with me at the table writer and editor, amanda carter, as well as msnbc justice and legal affairs analyst and veteran of many a southern campaign, anthony culley. mike, i want to start with you, we have limited time, tell us what's going on in savannah and what they've done on the ground and what reaction has been? >> we saw as soon as vice president harris stepped off air force two we see a bit of the coalition work under way here in

southern georgia. she and governor walz posed for photos with students from savannah state university, which is one of many historically black colleges and universities in the state of georgia. now they're on their way to more rural parts of these counties around savannah, and it really speaks to the strategy of a campaign that feels like it has some very real momentum. the kids would call this a flex. they have the resources and the ability with a more competitive race than maybe was the case with president biden at the top of the ticket to play in the expanded battleground map. they're trying to not just run up the score in places like atlanta as a typical campaign would do, but they want to make inroads into places where donald trump has the advantage and call it the raphael warnock playbook. we can relive from 2012, this is a bit of the obama playbook as well. when i was on the road with then vice president joe biden in state like ohio they would send him to these kinds of places. they were romney, 55, 60%

counties where they wanted to shave a percentage point, two, three, four off his margins in those counties and have president obama hit places like columbus, like cleveland, like cincinnati, to drive turnout among the base. all of that adds up to maybe a narrow victory, but a victory, and ohio was a state that put president obama over the line to win re-election. that's what we're seeing here where president biden and his campaign had been really shrinking the map to focus on defense playing in the blue wall states with wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, we see them making an intentional statement, coming out of the convention, a successful convention in their view, to put the trump campaign they're not just winning the states they need to win the election but expand that and have a big victory on november 5th. >> it's interesting. it was reminding me of the obama-biden strategy of showing up. i've been on many a bus tour in many parts of the country where people are surprised they're there. but that's part of it and how many people win in these more

red or purple states. i want to ask you, since i have you here, you broke a story yesterday, new reporting about kind of the plan for a super pac or a pac that is going to run a big program that is going to be important after the election to counter basically republican legal challenges. the battles that democrats expect are going to come. tell us a little bit more about your reporting, when is it going to start? what is their overall strategy? you know, what are they hoping to accomplish with it? >> yeah. jen, this is going to be before, during and after the electionp they call it the democracy defenders pac and this really speaks to the need, yes, every campaign, the nationat they call voter protection operations within their campaign, but this is going to be an entity that is singularly focused on that issue, supporting legal efforts on the part of campaigns and parties up and down the ballot to make sure that they're expanding voting access, confronting republican efforts

to maybe restrict access to challenge the vote, but also, to go on the messaging front. when they see donald trump and his republican allies trying to sow disinformation, sow doubt about this election, they want to confront and counteract that. when you talk to democrats about what keeps them up at night, it's this fact that when donald trump did go to court, after the 2012 election, it was very much last-minute disorganized and a bit chaotic and unsuccessful in the end. they are worried the trump team and his allies are much more prepared this go-round not just to challenge the results after the election but to make efforts to challenge voting rules, to challenge early votes that are being cast already. this is being led by jim, who led the obama campaign in 2012. norm iceman part of the impeachment team, a democratic lawyer, former ally of stacey abrams, and our friend t.j. duck as the chief strategist. this is a new effort that is

going to work hand in hand with the campaign, with the state parties and they think it's an important mission and they have $10 million to start this effort and will raise more over the course of the next few weeks and months. >> mike memoli, we'll let you go back to chasing the bus, being on the bus hopefully, doing all the bus things you do. i appreciate you taking the time to join us this afternoon. i want to bring in the panel here that i had introduced. start with you, anthony, you and i met when you were i think a regional desk for southern states on the kerry campaign. look at that memory. >> you have -- >> back then democrats were not winning southern states. that was a hard assignment. things have shifted a bit. what would you say to people who are kind of new to following this and thinking, okay, is georgia an easy state, north carolina an easy state. what is different about this region of the country in terms of competing there as a democrat? >> here's what was interesting to me about this last report. we heard mike use the term he

said it was a flex for kamala harris. i love that term. he's right. here's facts. this is the first time in more than 30 years that a democratic nominee has been to savannah and surrounding areas. the reason -- >> it's surprising because it's warnock's hometown. >> it is. but, you know, it gives credence to the fact that democrats have not always played in rural areas in this one stoplight towns where faith and family and football, some people would put football in front of family, depending on the sec playoff game, but where those things reign supreme, the reason that it is competitive right now is because women, in particular black women, like latorsha brown, stacey abrams, invested the time, they built out the infrastructure, and so that's how we got warnock and ossoff. the other thing that's important here is demographic changes. amy walters said today, and i think she's right, the

electorate could be upwards of 29% of african american voters. statewide 60% are expected to come from metro atlanta which has historically been democratic. the other thing i will say here, finally, is that we were talking about this a little bit earlier is the transformational impact of good public policy. i worked for ted kennedy who would say all the time, smart policy makes for smart politics. this infrastructure law we heard the mayor, talk about it, $3.1 billion, going it rural farmers throughout georgia, $10 billion including roads, bridges, but i read one story today, jen, because i'm a local, regional press guy, i wanted to hear what local -- >> savannah morning news. >> okay. >> the savannah morning news, anthony. >> so historic african american community, right, they get $30 million to prevent storm drain flooding.

that may not sound like a big thing, but when you have generational wealth invested into your home and you're trying to save your home to raise your family stuff like that matters and people are going to vote in their best interest. that's why i think georgia is in play. >> it's interesting they're talking about rural health care such an important issue on this tour. that seems to be part of the harris-walz messaging. you, amanda, spent time talking about democracy, also front and center. there's a lot of issues front and center in this election and georgia is an interesting state, but also it is a state where donald trump was indicted for trying to overturn the election, right. and you have a complicated republican leadership structure there. you have a popular governor, brian kemp, who was not going to campaign with trump and now he's campaigning with trump. the former lieutenant governor that spoke at the convention. how do you think for georgia voters where they need to get every single vote, these are important issues and how do they balance that with integrating in the democracy argument? >> first i think number one you

have to give them credit for showing up. >> right. >> considering look, that blows my mind that a democrat hasn't been to savannah in 30 years. >> i didn't know that either. >> that's interesting number one. but yes, just showing up and being accessible to typically conservative voters who may be willing to give you a look this time because you have to understand, if you're one of these republicans in georgia which was ground zero for a lot of these election conspiracies, really three states got hit hard, georgia, arizona, and michigan, there's been a backlash. like republicans are fed up with the nonsense on some level. if you look at somebody like lieutenant governor duncan who spoke at the convention, he didn't speak at the convention because he loved the progressive items, he was there because he wanted to restore the guardrails of democracy, have integrity of elections, get back to some sort of constitutional order. i think she does have a balance beam to walk on this. but she's going to have more republicans than ever who are willing to give her a listen.

>> yeah. which is a pretty important and interesting piece. let me ask you, anthony, we were talking in the last hour about the balance she has to strike. a bus tour is great. it takes time. doing an interview tomorrow. if you're sitting in the campaign strategy meetings how much time are you spending showing up in places -- they did one in pennsylvania too in rural pennsylvania, in rural georgia, versus interviews, versus debate prep. what's the breakdown of things? >> so what i would do, i'm glad she's sitting down with dana bash, one of the smartest reporters in washington. i also hope that they are sitting down with top anchors and other media markets in georgia. right. i remember -- >> local anchors. >> local anchors. in 2004, briefing john edwards before he went off and did regional tv interviews, that's, quite frankly, i'm glad she's doing national interviews, but you got to reach voters. >> yep. >> in the state. and so i'm glad -- i hope they're doing a little bit of

that as well. >> being on the bus is part of the prep. talking to real people and always road testing the messages to see how they hear it and they might give you a line. where weird came from bubbled up organically, and it captured the moment. it's what real people were saying. she can prep the policy on the bus, going out there shaking hands, having real conversations, really gets you in the right mindset. >> the other thing i will say she's authentic. she has brought joy back to a campaign and people, we say this all the time, people may not always remember what you say or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel. >> this is a very -- this is what politics is about. i wanted to ask you both, because it falls into this, you mentioned football, faith. part of the messaging you're hearing from democrats last week, and i'm sure if you're them you're going to try to integrate it into the interview tomorrow is about patriotism and freedom and rights. amanda, you worked for conservative republican

senators. >> yeah. >> what do you make of this sort of flipping of the script? and do you think it could work with independent voters, never trumpers, others not sure what they want to do? >> i think it has been working. look at the election results from the midterms all the way through now people getting excited. we've kind of been saying for a long time, the mantle is ready to be stolen on freedom. it was like kamala harris, as soon as she got the nomination, i'm going to take that football and run with it into the end zone. it was incredible to watch at the dnc. all the flags, the appeals of patriotism, inclusivity, if i can say that word correctly, yeah. it was a stark contrast, from the rnc, where you saw signs about mass deportation, the harsh messages, coming out. the contrast was clear. >> i don't want to cut you off. i want to tell people what they're watching. we're seeing live footage of vice president harris and governor walz at a high school,

and a high school band playing. we love it. >> yeah. >> we love to see it. maybe we need some football players jumping in there too. that would be great. so this is the kind of old-school campaigning that is almost a throwback in some ways. it reminds me of when you and i, all of us, started our political careers the thing you did and it was a little bit lost during the covid age and that period of time of the back and forth. >> the beauty of these type of events, this one seems more planned. i like the organic stop by, the neighborhood store, or stop by i think in the previous tour they stopped at a football field where folks were -- kids were practicing. that's where the real magic happens and i hope we see more of that over the next two days. >> it's locals, we're going to listen to what they have to say for a few minutes. [ applause ] . >> i could not be more honored

to have you visit our school -- >> as a part of their bus tour. this is to me, this kind of video and this kind of footage, these visuals, are, again, if you're sitting at home and you're in the american public, thinking like, this is what i hope politicians do. >> yeah. >> that's my gut. >> they're pressing into the corners of georgia if they're going to a high school marching band. some of them might be 18 and turning 18 later in the year, but i think the fact that they're showing up at a high school in the middle the day to stop by a band practice, really speaks to how hard they're pressing. >> tim walz looks comfortable here having taught high school, taught in high school for many years. talk about a wonderful addition to the ticket. both of them. >> let's listen in to what he has to say. >> and then to see a school community, each and every one of these, i coached football a lot, but all of this doing something bigger, and i think having us in here stressing why the vice

president said that often that education is the key to the middle class, a pathway to the middle class and it should be [ inaudible ] give you an opportunity to get there. whether you get into a public school like this, we see and tell you, it's not just the teachers here tell you, they do this work, it's not a cliche. this is truly about building towards the future and you're that future. we're in a room like this, it lifts everybody's spirits. the vice president talks about that often, about the positive and the joyful work that we can do and the things that we're trying to make sure happen. i'm just grateful that you have us here. i'm grateful to be part of the team with a really great head coach here and our next president of the united states, kamala harris. [ applause ] >> so, you know, i've been hearing about you [ inaudible ]

for quite some time, bringing joy to everybody in the stands, with the music that you guys are creating. we wanted to come up just to let you know, that our country counts on you. you are leaders by the very fact that you all are here in this room, doing what you do, at this incredible school, doing it as one big team, understanding all the different parts, that fit together, to create a team, you are doing some of the best work any of you can do, and we're so proud of you. your generation, all that you guys stand for, everything you have at stake, is what is going to propel our country into the

next era of what we can do [ inaudible ] and i want to say to you, that you must always lead as you have chosen to lead, understand you don't have to ask anybody for permission, and i think you all can figure that out, you've decided to be a leader. and in doing that you are also role models right. welcome to the role model club. being a role model, right, means that there are members of your family, live in your neighborhood, your classmates, who watch you and see that's how it's done. you are showing what hard work can achieve, what discipline can do, what teamwork can do, and that's the stuff of great leadership. all of you. and so we wanted to come by to remind you that our nation is counting on you, we're so proud of you, everything you have

changed, and i will tell you, i was in band when i was your age, so i know a little bit about the coach and players, right, and all that you are doing, it requires a whole lot of rehearsal, a whole lot of practice, long hours, right. sometimes you hit the note, sometimes you don't. >> all right. first of all, watching this, i feel like governor walz still seems like the teacher who just has a huge speaker that he's presenting to his team, to his classroom. he's looking -- he's watching very -- and, of course, kamala harris was in a band. of course she was. >> what instrument? >> i don't know. >> let's talk about the story, as you said if they're showing up at a high school, it's probably appealing to the parents and people who have kids who are in bands and the grandparents and things along those lines. but i love these local stops, too, because it does show you the authenticity. you look at that and compare it

with jd vance at the doughnut shop. >> donald trump can't do this, right. what struck me the most about what we just saw, jen, number one, she just seemed comfortable, right, impromptu, she was speaking off the cuff. she seemed just as comfortable in this classroom as she was on the stage last week talking about national security issues. the other thing here was the message. it was a hopeful message. it was optimistic message. it was, you know, sitting bea -- beside -- her strategy reminds me of ronald reagan's america as a shining city on the hill. we do not get that from donald trump. a part of what this campaign wants to do is to draw a contrast between two distinct visions and ideologies. one vision that is for the middle class and donald trump is for himself. right. that's what i think we saw here and what i think we're going to

see more of in the coming days. >> yeah. to pull off one of the things you said, part of this is also about how you present the country. what you think of the country. this is a shift for the democratic message, but harris and walz, we believe in what the country can do and you all can do, right. there's a bit of trump and vance, the country is terrible and dire and bad, which is a shifting feeling. okay. no one is going anywhere. thank you, guys so much. that was a joy to watch. when we come back more than three years after the january 6th insurrection, there is unbelievably still more footage from that day that we haven't seen. we'll show you newly released video of then speaker nancy pelosi and her fury at donald trump and the mob that stormed the capitol. we'll talk about news of an incident at arlington national cemetery when the ex-president visited for a photo on that was already seen as controversial. you have to wonder if it's a bit of an obsession, more video of jd vance slamming childless

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(♪♪) nbc news has obtained never-before-seen footage of house speaker emerita nancy pelosi in the immediate aftermath of the january 6s insurrection. the video shot by alexandria pelosi, pelosi's daughter, and was recently turned over from hbo to congress. here's a clip from her evacuating the capitol. >> why wasn't the national guard there to begin with?

>> they thought they had sufficient -- >> they don't know. they clearly didn't know, and i take responsibility for not having them just prepare for more because it's stupid in a situation like this because they thought they had, what, they thought these people would act civilized? they thought these people gave a dam? what is it that is missing here in terms of anticipation? they give us a piece of paper that says walk through the tunnel, don't walk outside. that's our preparation. shame on us. >> and then in footage from the day after, pelosi is hear blaming the violence directly on donald trump. >> just feel sick what he did to the capitol and to the country today.

>> we take an oath to protect our country from all enemies foreign and domestic. there is a domestic enemy in the white house. and let's not mince words about this. >> joining our conversation democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, he was a member of the house january 6th select committee. congressman, we've talked so much about that day, about your work on the committee. that's footage that we haven't, i haven't seen, most people have not seen before. it's such a reminder of the many layers of things happening on that day, but what is your reaction to seeing that? >> well, we all swore an oath to protect and defend and support the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, and that thought was on the minds of everybody at that point, that there was a domestic enemy within the white house who had incited an armed insurrection against the constitution and against the

union. the house proceeded to impeach donald trump on those charges, and then there was a 57-43 vote to convict him in the senate, which fell short of the two-thirds requirement, but you did have commanding large majorities on a basis defining that donald trump had engaged in this ultimate high crime and misdemeanor of inciting insurrection against our own government. you know, those scenes are disturbing to watch because i remember just, you know, the chaos that we were thrust into, and, you know, when nancy pelosi said, you know, we should have called the national guard, of course, we don't have the power to do that. the national guard is under the president, but i think what she was saying there was, given that president trump didn't do anything while the attack was taking place, there is no way he was going to do something before the attack took place, and so i think what she was saying is, as i interpreted it, we should have

been demanding that national guard be there. >> yeah. it's interesting because to your point it's from in the moment where not all the information is known and she's thinking out loud in the moment which is one of the reasons it's so interesting. last week at the convention there was a long video played and you also gave an incredibly powerful speech, but a long video played of footage of january 6th. there's a lot of issues being debated. how much do you think that type of footage should be replayed for the public? should there be money spent on it to remind people of what could happen and what did happen? >> well, i think it's important for the public to understand that as the founders predicted, if you got someone who is a demagog, he's destined to become a despot and a tyrant, that means violence, donald trump appeals to a minority of the american people and a shrinking

and shriveling minority of american people, which means he will resort to fraud and deceit and violence in order to seize power because the democratic mechanisms alone are not going to work for him. we have to remind people of what the ultimate destination of that kind of authoritarian politics is. >> i want to play just another clip here, and that is of what then speaker pelosi had to say as she was being evacuated. evad >> in stopping the president of the united states. how many times do members -- are we prepared? >> i mean it's a reminder as you know and remind us often of how close we came that day to the certification not happening and there's been steps put in place since then, which are good, there's an outside group that

was just announced, outside pac, that is going to be run by jim messina and others to elevate these legal issues and really put money behind it. what do you think the public should be focusing on in terms of what type of replay could happen if trump has his way? >> well t, you know, what i was trying to get at at the convention, jen, was that we were basically one mike pence away from complete constitutional crisis. had he buckled under to donald trump's orders to step outside of his constitutional role and just decree donald trump the winner s then we would have had a very serious problem at that point. trump was prepared to ride in on the shoulders of the mob as he kept pressing to do, to declare himself, i don't know, president or, you know, ruler for life or what have you, and he was prepared to invoke the

insurrection act and to declare martial law, essentially, on the country. jd vance has said he would do what mike pence refused to do. he has said repeatedly that he also is an election denier and rejects the definitive rulings of 80 federal and state court judges in the country, and he would have essentially stepped outside of his assigned constitutional role of just being a ministerial, administrator of proceedings, and he would have tried to block the electors from coming in from millions of people including everybody from pennsylvania and michigan and arizona and georgia and nevada. that's alarming. i can't believe that's not a bigger issue in this campaign that jd vance is running around the country essentially telling republicans, that he would follow the order that mike pence

lost his job for not following. it should be as big a deal as donald trump running around the country saying he's proud of having appointed the justices who destroyed a constitutional right for women to choose to have an abortion if they need one been. >> such a good point. i have a feeling on donald trump's vp, pros, he will help me do what pence wouldn't do and negative is like, he seems to hate people who don't have children. we'll talk about that later too. thank you so much as always for joining us. really appreciate you being here. anthony, let me turn to you, you -- i mean you were at the department of justice in the days, months, years after this, it all brings things back in many ways. >> right. >> there has been frustration among some democrats that there hasn't been more action taken by the department of justice. it kind of has slowed a little bit. >> right. >> but what do you make of kind of the politics of all of this right now as you look to where

it is, where there might be frustrations within the party, where it might be appealing to some independents when they're seeing this and reminded of the horror we all lived through on that day? >> seeing it and being reminded of the horrors speak directly to the politics of it. the biggest challenge kamala harris has right now is one of amnesia and complacency. people have forgotten how close to a constitutional crisis we were, and they are now -- we are all complacent with how things are going. i want to speak, if i could, jen, to what nancy pelosi said. she has gotten some criticism for calling donald trump a domestic enemy. the facts bear that out. the -- there is a clear record here, if you want to rewind the tape, donald trump was the one who summoned that mob to washington. he did a tweet in december of 2020, he says come to d.c. we'll be wild. that's a direct quote he says. and if you look at his speech at the ellipse that day -- i went

back and read the transcript that day, he used the word fight or fighting, including telling his supporters to go down to the capitol and fight like hell. that's exactly what they did. they took their zip ties, tactical vests, weapons and attacked our capitol, they assaulted police officers, five law enforcement officers lost their lives as a result of injuries sustained that day, and for 187 minutes this man sat in the white house and refused to call off the dogs. yes, nancy pelosi is right to call him a domestic enemy because real leaders, when they see something wrong, they don't just incite a riot, they call it off. he refused to do that. >> i feel you, but i'm going to say, i applaud nancy pelosi for having the restraint not to dial up the rhetoric in the aftermath of that. this is the really hard thing about the people who -- they're

obligated and called upon to keep the guardrails of democracy, they have to be better and more restrained and dedicated to the facts in order than the people that they are in opposition to. i can make this argument, but i think it's important to say, those are private remarks. >> right. >> she did take productive action later to call on people to call mike pence, call cabinet secretaries, which by the way, following what jamie raskin said, it should be a bigger story that mike pence is not endorsing donald trump, his cabinet will not support him. >> you both have to come back. this is an important conversation. restraint versus passion is a tricky one. >> you can have both. >> it is tricky because you have to call out what they're doing too because they're kind of gaslighting america. thank you both so much. anthony coaly always a pleasure having you here. coming up next, the trump campaign embroiled in controversy over a confrontation at the arlington national

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controversy over the trump campaign's visit to arlington national cemetery earlier this week. nbc news is reporting that two members of donald trump's campaign staff had a, quote, confrontation with a cemetery official who tried to prevent them from filming during trump's visit. trump was, of course, taking part in an event to commemorate the third anniversary of the

abbey gate attack in afghanistan. the confrontation reportedly a rose after a member of the cemetery staff attempted to prevent the campaign from taking photos and videos in a section of the cemetery. late yesterday officials confirmed an incident had taken place saying in a statement, quote, federal law prohibits political campaign or election related activities within army national military cemeteries to include photographers, content creators or any other persons attending for purposes or in direct support of a partisan political candidate's campaign. arlington national cemetery reinforced and shared this law with all participants. we can confirm there was an incident and a report was filed. trump cocampaign manager saying in a statement, for a despicable individual to physically prevent president trump's team from accompanying him to the event is a disgrace and does not deserve

to represent the hallowed grounds of arlington national cemetery. we believe he means hollowed. the trump campaign says it's prepared to release footage and has yet to do so despite repeated requests from multiple media outlets to release the footage. joining us paul mcleery. amanda is back with us us. we're basing this on reporting like journalists like yourself. tell us where the story stands now. >> it hasn't moved a whole lot. we know that two of the families of the marines killed at abbey gate in kabul invited president trump to come with them to the ceremony at arlington national cemetery which he did. the trump campaign and their surrogates were in contact with the army which runs arlington national cemetery. and the cemetery staff to bring their own photographers. from my understanding, my reporting is that the army and the arlington national cemetery staff communicated the rules and

the federal law to the campaign. everything was fine until they moved to the grave sites themselves where a photographer for the campaign and some video folks tried to take photos and to film where one public affair officer came in and tried to stop them. apparently a physical altercation with trump staffers shoving or pushing or trying to move this public affairs officer to the side, and that's where it stands. a report was filed with military police. this is working its way true the army right now. that's kind of where things stand at the moment. the trump campaign, as you said, there was the -- you know, they're kind of blaming this on the public affairs officer saying they're mentally imbalanced and things like that. they're an employee trying to do their job. >> yeah. it's -- that's a bit of a tough criticism. let me ask you, this incident, which, obviously -- there's not

a -- we haven't learned a lot new since i outlined what i outlined. earlier this month, at a vfw event, trump kind of said that -- that the civilian honor of the presidential medal of freedom was ber than the congressional medal of honor because the recipients are soldiers, in bad shape because they've been hit so many times or they're dead. the vfw reacted calling his remarks saying they crassly characterize the sacrifices of those who have risked their lives above and beyond the call of duty. this is an example of kind of that's not political, people who serve. it feels like a little bit of a pattern. do you think this is something that people are paying attention to out there or it's hard to tell at this point? >> i mean, there's always this cognitive dissidence, trump supports the troops but doesn't respect the medals and rules of the cemetery just like he supposedly backs the blue but wants to issue pardons for people defending the capitol on

january 6th. we need to spend a moment on the notion that a physical altercation happened, according to the reporting, we need to hear more about that, at arlington cemetery. there's a continued culture of violence he cultivates like january 6th. what kind of campaign tolerates staff that get into a physical altercation at a cemetery. who was that staffer? is any action being taken? i mean that idea is appalling. >> [ inaudible ] on any campaign i would have worked on. >> we saw that in 2016 when a staffer grabbed a female reporter. this is a larger incident and we saw it blow up in spectacular fashion on january 6th and yet there are still people involved in this campaign, that somehow get into these kinds of incidents at a solemn cemetery. i think that's worth keeping an eye on. >> that's a very interesting

point. it's the culture of kind of what's going to be approved by your boss and that wouldn't be tolerated on most democratic or republican campaigns out there. >> any place. >> anywhere. paul, thank you so much for your reporting and being with usp amanda carpenter, thank you for being with me today. really appreciate it. coming up next, jd vance, one of the least popular vice presidential nominees of all time, factual, that's a true statement, caught trashing teachers in newly resurfaced audio.

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much of the time jd vance has spent as donald trump's running mate can be summed up as "clean-up on aisle 5." explaining past comments he's made, in particular, about women. it's become a weekly routine at this point, if not even more often. take a listen to this recording from october of 2021, which was first obtained by heartland signal and reviewed in its entirety by nbc news. vance talking about american teachers who don't have what he deems as children of their own, including the head of the teachers union, randy weingarten. >> and i think our conservative ideas is that parents and families should determine what children learn, what values they're brought up with. so many of the leaders of the left, and i hate to be so personal about this, but they're people without kids trying to brainwash the minds of our children. that really disorients me, and it really disturbs me. randi weingarten, the head of the most powerful teachers union in the country, she doesn't have

a single child. if she wants to brainwash and destroy the minds of children, she should have some of her own and leave ours alone. >> joining us is randi weingarten. randi, i know you are no stranger to strange attacks against you, but broadly speaking it seems to be saying you can't be an effective teacher, unless you're a parent yourself, which is crazy on its own. but he does name you there so i want to get your reaction. >> jen, it's just -- if it wasn't, you know, so insulting and if we didn't have such a divided country where people take seriously what he or donald trump say, it would be ridiculous. but you know, you just, like, sit there and say, whether it's, you know, catholicism or judaism or any of the religions that many of us believe in, teaching

children is one of the most important things we can do, regardless of whether we are parents or not. and frankly, i'm delighted. i'm blessed that sharon has two kids, and you know, i consider them my kids now, and it's wonderful to have a big family with lots of nieces and nephews. somebody doesn't have to be -- somebody doesn't have to be a parent to be a great teacher. and in fact, so many teachers in america, so many nuns in parochial schools, are fantastic teachers who teach compassion and caring and critical thinking and context. so, this whole -- it's nonsensical, but what it does in this age of disinformation and misinformation, it just makes the job of teaching and learning, that connection between parents and teachers and kids, it makes it harder, and that's why it's gross. >> it is so gross. i have two kids in elementary

school who just started school this week, i could not be more grateful for the teachers in their lives. let's turn to just a more positive -- >> you know, you have to create that connection, and so when he does this as a vice president -- i mean, he did it as a candidate for senate. okay. he shouldn't have done that. but as a vice presidential candidate, it has impact, and it's the beginning of school. so, why, as a public figure, he should be taking more responsibility. i don't care what he says about me, but don't do this to every child and every teacher and every family in america. sorry. >> no. you don't have to be sorry with me. i agree with you a thousand percent. he also has an obsession with women who don't have kids. get over it, buddy. there's other things to worry about. let me ask you on a more positive note. i know you were at the dnc in chicago. talk about what it was like. there seems to be a lot of enthusiasm among teachers out there for the harris-walz ticket. tim walz is a teacher himself.

>> you could see him. i was watching your show. you could see him in the georgia classroom, because he's a high school teacher. he's a high school coach. he's, you know, he's led clubs like the gay-straight alliance. this is what teachers know. when they see one of their own who's treated seriously with respect and dignity and honored in this kind of way, it just opens up our hearts. teachers have been dissed for so long for all these public reasons, not on a local level. we know lots of teachers are beloved on a local level. but because of the funding of public schools, and because it takes a lot of money to fund a great education for all kids in america, teachers get dissed a lot. so, when you see a tim walz, and when you see a kamala harris picking him, it says a lot about opportunity, and it says a lot to teachers about who we are and what we represent. and, like, even the things like,

you can deal with adults because you can do lunch duty. every teacher in america who has done lunch duty, every para who's done lunch duty, we understand exactly what that means. >> no question. lunch duty seems harder than what most of the rest of us do. randi weingarten, thank you so much for joining us. we really appreciate it. we're taking a quick break, but we'll be right back. it. we're taking a quick break, but we'll be right back. (man) what's my next step? ugh. (girl) dad. (vo) trade in any phone, in any condition for the new google pixel 9 with gemini. (man) give me a recipe with these ingredients. (girl) let's do that one. (vo) only on verizon. a chewy pharmacy order is en route for summit, who loves the outdoors. so her parents use chewy to save 20% on their first order of flea & tick meds. delivered fast, so summit never misses a dose. or an adventure. for quality meds. for life with pets, there's chewy.

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