i'm in for chris jansing. this hour inside the political play book, kamala harris downplays shifting positions and embraces joe biden's legacy, and her first big tv interview. can those same tactics help her in the upcoming debate? or will it be her attempts to get under trump's skin that actually make the difference? plus, new polling shows hispanic voters have swung hard to harris. that group now backing her by a whopping 16 points. getting them to answer polls in august is one thing. getting them to vote at the polls in november is another. more on the democrats' new plan to make that happen. and one of the doctors helping to supply late tv star matthew perry with ketamine set to appear in a california courtroom later this afternoon. the latest on how he's helping prosecutors go after their primary targets. the man known as dr. p and the woman dubbed the ketamine queen. we start with new insights into how kamala harris will grapple

with some of the biggest political challenges of her campaign, including how to address ties to the current president joe biden and attacks from the former president donald trump. we saw a glimpse of that in her first major tv interview. >> he suggested that you happened to turn black recently for political purposes. questioning a core part of your identity. >> yeah. the same old tired play book. next question, please. >> that's it? >> that's it. >> changing the subject may not be easy when trump is standing across from her in next month's scheduled debate. in fact, nbc news has learned it may be harris who is planning to be the aggressor. harris and her team are focusing on homing in on how to needle trump to rattle him. in that sense, the source that, it will be less about substance explore about showcasing harris as a woman who isn't scared and isn't going to cower and will be standing up to trump and holding

him accountable. aaron gilchrist is following the harris campaign from washington. michael hardaway worked for house minority leader hakeem jeffries and dick durbin, and an msnbc political analyst. can we take what we saw from harrison in the cnn interview and give us a sense of how this could set the stage for that debate coming up in september? >> i think you can look at this as an indicator of what we might expect from that debate on september 10th. i had a former administration official who worked closely with vice president harris he told the me this is a woman who is masterful when it comes to staying on message. i think that's a lot of what you saw in this interview west didn't learn a lot of new information about what vice president harris would do were she to win the election but we did get to see how she handles a direct line of questioning, how she might handle a back and forthwith former president trump on the debate stage.

she has spent the last several weeks preparing for the debate and will ramp up those efforts next week going into the weekend and the debate that will be in the following week, and we also understand that the campaign has really been focusing on trying to figure out how to avoid, how the vice president can avoid falling for personal attacks they anticipate will come from the former president and returning those attacks. at the same time, you suggested there's an effort to make sure she is able to stand her ground with the former president, that she's able to stand up to him, sort of allow him to be a bully, if that's the direction he chooses to go into. but not falling for him being a bully. and at the same time, as i said, staying on message, talking about her plans for the future, what she will want to do for the middle class, and also, trying to remain calm and focused on that throughout the course of the debate as opposed to being rattled herself, allowing him,

the former president to make whatever statements he might make and rattling him by not taking the bait, ryan. >> interesting strategy. so susan, we know the trump campaign has been hammering harris for her ties to the more unpopular time in office. but she showed no signs of running from that in the interview last night. let's take a little listen. >> i think history will show a number of thing about joe biden's presidency. i think history will show that in so many ways, it was transformative, be it on what we have accomplished around finally investing in america's infrastructure, investing in new economies, in new industries, what we have done to bring our allies back together and have confidence in who we are as america and grow that alliance, what we have done to stand true to our principles. >> you heard her say we several

times. is that a smart move by embracing the administration that way? >> she really has little choice, ryan. that's because she is part of the administration. it also shows another quality that i happen to like about the vice president that hasn't been talked going a lot. her loyalty. her sense of loyalty. throughout this whole past weeks, she's never tried to throw the president under the bus or really distance herself from him. but on top of that, i think at this point, the one mistake she's making as far as distancing herself from the, from biden is on this idea of lowering price costs, especially when it comes to food. the biden administration i believe made one fatal error and that was in its naming of the inflation reduction act. even though you reduce inflation, prices rarely come down. that's just the reality. you hope your dollar buys more

but prices won't come down very much. i would rather see her go after food processing plants or formula or people that have monopolies and say we'll break up the the monopolies, create competition and deliver better prices. >> so at the same time nbc news is reporting that she may have to change tactics at the debate a little bit. this is what our report says. drawing a distinction between harris and biden is a source of tension. there are some on the harris team that are taking the approach she may have to respectfully but forcefully labeling for some of the problems like the afghanistan withdrawal squarely at biden's feet. keeping in mind they will not only be working together in the month ahead but he will be campaigning for her as well. >> she doesn't have to finger-point. this is a 20-plus year effort that was mismanaged in the

beginning. very similar to immigration, you ever a situation where she is expected to fix an issue quickly that has been happening for decades and that's just not possible. she doesn't have to distance herself. she has to tell the story of 15 million jobs. she has to tell the story of the historic infrastructure bill that was delivered after three generations of failures by previous presidents. she has to tell the story of historically high business creation and black business creation, and historically low unemployment. she has to tell those stories. america leads the world right now in oil production, in part due to fractioning. she should tell those stories. she doesn't have to distance herself or criticize or point fingers at the president. she just has to explain her positions and why she feels that way and what this administration has delivered for the american people. >> interesting that you bring up fracking. she was asked about that at one

time. she was clearly opposed to fracking. her position on that has changed. this is how she explained that shift. >> do you still want to ban fracking? >> no. and i made that clear on the debate stage in 2020. that i would not ban fracking as vice president, i did not ban fracking. as president, i will not ban fracking. >> in 2019, i believe, at a town hall, you were asked would you commit to permitting a ban and you said there's no question i'm in favor of banning fracking. so it changed in that campaign? >> in 2020 i made very clear where i stand. we're in 2024 and i have not changed that position. i kept my word and i will keep my word. >> so she admits that she did change her position but now she wants voters to believe she won't change it again. how do voters respond? >> i think it is perfectly

respectable for someone who has been serving at the pinnacle of power as vice president of the united states after three and a half years to develop her own opinions based on different information and stand up for it. she did say what she was against fracking in 2019. she knew to be part of the biden ticket, she would have to adapt in 2020, which she did. perhaps she's learned more. the point is she is giving a position. in contrast to donald trump and j.d. vance, if they want to go there, i take that fight every day. let's not forget the words that j.d. vance used to describe donald trump or how many positions donald trump has had on abortion. we can go on and on and on. harris answered that question like a politician does, and that's okay. >> is that enough though? this is clearly a line of attack that she's a flip-flopper and that she can't be trusted. how do they respond to that?

>> look, i worked for many politicians. the reality is you can't trust anyone who on wednesday feels the same way they do on monday if they've been given new information on tuesday. people's positions evolve. she's learned new things. she's had new experiences and that's perfectly normal for all of us. i would say to susan's point, donald trump has flip-flopped on dozens of issues. the reality is for the fracking question, america leads in global oil production in part because of fracking under this administration, of which she is a part of. i have no problem with the fact that her view on that has evolved just like every elected official in this country, and really across the world. so that's a clean answer and there's no real issue in terms of why she changed her mind. it makes perfect sense. >> you are a republican. she mentioned last night she would be willing to put a republican in her cabinet. most republicans will probably not vote for kamala harris but is there a segment of the

population, maybe people like you, that will help them maybe cast a ballot for her when they wouldn't consider doing it otherwise? >> for me there's no doubt i'm voting for vice president harris. i would never have voted for donald trump. never would vote for donald trump. what this did, it followed a theme that the vice president was trying to build up on from the convention. and that is, she will be president for all people. she wants to hear different opinions will being a prosecutor, she's had to play both sides of an argument. i think she enjoys having that back and forth. and yes, it shows she's not closed-minded to some republicans. it gives a little bit of a permission structure. there is no guarantee but at least she didn't slam the door on it. >> okay, thank you all for being here. in 90 seconds, the latest by the trump legal team to delay sentencing in his hush money

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correspondent lisa rubin, also with us, legal analyst danny savallos. walk us through what donald trump was trying to do here. it seems counter intuitive that he would be able to make this legal argument at this stage of the case. a case that has already been adjudicated in the state court, to a federal court. explain this. >> let's start with your first question. it seems counterintuitive that he could do it at this point. the federal removal statute which is what they're relying on allow a criminal defendant to move a case to federal court after the trial if they can show good cause for doing that. so it's not blocked for them to try what they're doing now. of course, the reason they're doing so, particularly now that the case has been adjudicated, is because what is remaining in the case. because of the sentencing that is currently scheduled for september 18th. they've asked new york criminal court judge juan rashaun to

delay that sentencing which is currently scheduled for the 18th. he hasn't responded to them yet. it is because of that and their desire to avoid sentencing at all costs that they have made their about i had to move to federal court. the statute says as long as the removal notice is pending, a state court can continue on with the criminal case but they can't proceed to what's called the conviction of judgment and that's exactly what a sentencing is, ryan. >> so how strong is the defense's argument right now? especially in light of this court ruling on immunity? >> yeah, i couldn't hear you but i have the idea. i think your question is about how strong a defense this is. it is a long shot and it's a long shot mostly because it's an area we've never been in before. we've never had a former president try to remove a case after conviction. and under the statute, there is a federal officer removal statute and the argument is essentially that because there was immunity, they have expanded now the world of his federal

defense. by expanding the world of the federal defense, there is a greater reason now than there was when they originally tried to remove this case for this case to be before a federal judge. in other words, the federal immunity decision translates in the defense attorney's view into a federal issue. a federal colorable federal defense that donald trump should be able to use only at federal court. and that's why it should be in federal court, according to the defense. >> in addition to being a brilliant legal mind, he's apparently also very good at lip-reading. explain to me, what is the process, that they can win this argument. >> i don't think it is high and i'll tell you why. the supreme court came down with its decision on july 1st. since then, donald trump's legal team has made a variety of motions before the judge. they've asked him to recuse himself for a third time. they've asked him to set aside the verdict on the basis of the

supreme court's immunity ruling on the grounds that he admitted a bunch of evidence having to do with donald trump's official truck in that they say under the supreme court's opinion shouldn't have been in the case. they also asked him to delay the sentencing. what they haven't done since july 1st until last night was go to this federal court and make the argument that danny was laying out. that shows me that this is not an argument that they're necessarily making in good faith, but this is a last-ditch attempt to avoid sentencing at all costs because of the provision and the federal statute that says so long as you have a removal notice pending, the state court can't move to sentencing. it seems like somebody read that very closely and decided, aha! we have a way out of this sentencing if the judge doesn't postpone on his own. they also haven't asked the federal court for permission to file this motion. when do you so after trial, you're supposed to do that. so i think on both of those grounds, they are likely not to succeed here but they've injected an element of

uncertainty into something that many of us thought was settled. the sentencing date of september 18th, to the extent that the judge doesn't throw away the verdict. >> i guess the one situation here that is different than normal legal cases is that there is this election that will play such big a role in trump's legal future. and it just changes this conversation so much more than it would in a normal legal case. let's now talk about the deadline for both donald trump's team and the special prosecutor jack smith's team with how they would like to proceed with the federal election interference case. what are you watching for there? >> i'm really watching to see how much process each side tells the judge they need to move the case back on track. now, when the judge originally asked them to file this joint staffs report it was before the superseding indictment. let's see what both sides say should happen next and the timing. >> and danny, to you, almost two months ago it felt like the

immunity decision took all the momentum from the special counsel's case. now jack smith is trying to revive it. what do they do with how it depends on the november 5th election? [ silence ] >> -- when the smoke clears, there may be no criminal convictions. that still seems like a procedural long shot. going forward, in a way the immunity decision is one of several problems that the special counsel has. they've got the fact that the judge in the southern district of florida has completely disqualified in essence the special counsel from even prosecuting the case. so trump's defense team has successfully thrown up a bunch of road blocks and is even challenging this current conviction. he's been convicted in new york and now that one, if they can delay long enough, or, excuse me, not so much with a state case. if they can fight this long

enough, if they can get it into federal court which seems like a long shot, if they can deal with this immunity and try to argue that anything that touched his conduct in the white house is immune, then they may have a shot. the reality is, we're all wondering what this immunity decision means going forward. we know that the extreme sides, we know that core presidential power, the purely private conduct is completely unprotected and not immune. it is that gray area in the middle and especially where there is this presumption, this mysterious presumption of immunity that still needs to be litigated in a way the immunity decision made more questions than it did answers. >> i don't think danny can still hear me so this is our opportunity to say whatever we want about him and just laugh and nod. we won't do that. we'll just say that he's a great guy. next, a planned pause in fighting between israel and hamas. live in tel aviv next with what led to that decision. decision

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right now, israel and hamas are preparing for a rare pause in fighting that will begin this weekend to get what the world health organization hopes will be hundreds of thousands of children vaccinated against polio inside gaza. already, one family is dealing with the devastating news that their 10-month-old baby has been diagnosed with a highly

contagious virus that is causing paralysis in his leg. this is the first reported polio case in gaza in 25 years. his mother says their family's continued displacement caused him to miss his vaccine. nbc reports live from tel aviv. the world health organization is up against a lot of challenges to get this done inside a war zone. what is the plan here? how can they pull this off? >> ryan, this is shaping up to be one of the most complicated vaccination campaigns in modern history. the united nations says if it is going to contain the spread of this deadly disease, polio, inside of gaza, it needs to vaccinate 640,000 palestinian children over the next four weeks. that is just an absolutely massive logistical challenge. they need well over a million doses of this vaccine. those doses need to be kept in cold storage. it is swelteringly hot in gaza

right now. there is very little reliable electricity. as you said, all of this depends on this pretty fragile series of pauses that israel and hamas have agreed to. these are three-day pauses. the first will be on sunday in central gaza. they're then going to go south and then to the north. the united nations officials said earlier, this whole plan will fall apart if these two warring sides do not stick to these temporary truces. take a listen. >> we need this pause and this has been very clear. we have an agreement on that so we expect that all parties will stick to that. otherwise, indeed, it is actually impossible to do a proper campaign because you will not reach, you will definitely not reach 90%. this is a way for once. i won't say there is the ideal way but this is a workable way forward. not doing anything would be

really bad. we have to stop this transmission. >> reporter: so ryan, even if these pauses hold, even if these very complicated logistical chains hold up, this vaccination campaign will come too late for that little boy you mentioned in the intro. his name is abdul. his family has been displaced many, many times in this war like so many families inside of gaza. he missed his vaccination. and he was just learning to crawl in the tents that his family now calls home. you can see his mother now just rocking him back and forth in this old car seat, trying to keep him cool. he's paralyzed in one of his legs and he is the first confirmed case of polio in gaza in 25 years. this disease was thought to have been stamped out inside the strip. well the conditions there right now, a lot of contaminated water, a health care system that is all but collapsed, very

difficult to get kids vaccinations in time. these are, experts say, the absolutely perfect conditions for this deadly disease to return. so the hope is now that this ad hoc u.n. vaccination campaign over the next few weeks will be enough to turn the tide. >> it seems like an insurmoundable task. thank you for that update. next, a closer look at latino voters in multiple swing states that may have a major impact in the november election. you're watching msnbc. you're watching nbmsc. (aaron) i own a lot of businesses... so my tech and my network need to keep up. thank you, verizon business. (kevin) now our businesses get fast and reliable internet from the same network that powers our phones. (aaron) so whatever's next... we're cooking with fire. (vo) switch to the partner businesses rely on. smile! you found it. the feeling of finding psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin.

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kamala harris's rise in the polls is driven in part by her rising support among hispanic voters. a new poll today shows harris with a 16-point lead against donald trump with hispanic voters. former president trump used to be 2 points ahead in that category. a new nbc news focus group of latino voters in swing states shows a lack of familiarity with harris. with one voter saying that, quote, harris will go wherever the wind takes her. it also shows concerns about another trump presidency. joining me now, the national political reporter ben, and democratic pollster and msnbc political analyst. so ben, this is part of nbc's focus group. give some context about what we're about to watch. >> yes. there's been a dramatic shift at the top of the democratic

ticket. and it sort of presents a challenge and opportunity. first off, these voters, they're skeptical hispanics. they're not fully undecided but basically with trump, they know who he is and they know how they feel about him. for better or worse. with trump, you're not entirely sure yet. lets listen to the voters and how they respond. >> in a head to head race between lars and trump, who would take trump? >> this is such a hard decision. i feel like i have to pick between the lesser of the two evils. i think he's at least a known entity. i know what to kind of expect with him. >> so you know him. he was president for four years. >> i think -- she's going to go wherever the wind takes her. i don't think she has any convictions. i'm not convinced. >> better the full known than the full unknown. sorry. i think i can handle trump another four years. he is not going to kill the whole nation in four years.

he doesn't have that power. and i just don't know harris well enough. her policies are weak to me. she sounds like a puppet or whatever you want to call her. she sounds vague and empty. they're using her. >> by a show of fingers, who would take harris? the two gentlemen, victor and andreas. why would you take harris? >> because she's confident. i don't know if the country would survive another four years of a trump administration. >> we live in a two-party system. these are the two candidates. the vast majority of policies put forward and believe in, especially in this kind of republican iteration which i'm not a fan of. >> and by a show of fingers, who puts a lot of blame on harris for things that went wrong during biden's term? >> i can't blame her for being a

silent partner. she was just there. you know? i'm here. i'm in the chair. i'll do what i have to do. don't make me talk about that woman. >> okay. >> other reasons why you don't blame her for what went wrong in biden's term? the other three of you? >> she's just the vice president. she wasn't in charge. >> being vice president does not give you any muscle. >> she wasn't active enough to be blamed for anything. >> so if i'm hearing you correctly, she doesn't get credit for what went right and she doesn't get the blame for what went wrong. show of fingers. who agrees with that? >> the two of you. so victor, why don't you agree with that? >> in living in this country, a vice president, get credit for anything, it's a decorative

figure. only here when the president is not here or something happens to the president. the president is the one to decide whatever will be done. >> so do you agree that she doesn't get the credit when thing go right or the blame when things go wrong? >> yeah. she is not supposed to get anything -- running the country, she cannot do it. >> what do you fear with harris? >> the unknown. the fact that we don't know where she stands on different policies. if she just follows the democratic line, not much has gotten done in the past four years. what will get done the next four? >> kevin, what do you fear from harris? >> that there won't be any change. that the democratic party promises as every election, i always vote democrat, for example. and my biggest fear is that we're just going through a cycle of candidates that are not actually changing course for the

people. and while both candidates do scare me, i think trump, at least with trump i know what he is going to do to us. >> so not exactly a ringing endorsement on harris. but they don't know much about her. there's a chance that potentially that might change. for harris, it seems like it is about introducing herself to these voters and maybe help with some of their fear of the unknown. with trump, they know how they feel about him. they don't, they either like him or they don't. in a lot of cases, they like the policy, don't like the rhetoric. so how harris is going to be able to square that, it is both an opportunity but also, she starts behind with a couple months to go to make the case. >> important to point out, it is just a small group of people we talked to in this situation. your reaction to these voters and the points they're making that maybe they're not huge fans of donald trump but they at

least know what to expect. for them, harris is an unknown quantity. >> it's clear that these are somewhat low information voters who are not what you might call following the political process closely. i agree with ben. the opportunity is for kamala harris to introduce herself and to make the case again for exactly what the biden administration, the harris administration accomplished these last four years, but more importantly, to emphasize what we've started to hear from kamala harris which has been a departure from joe biden's rhetoric over the last couple weeks. an acknowledgement that while the economy is much stronger than it was when they inherited the mission four years ago, a long way to go. prices still too high and she's going to laser focus on making sure that gouging does not continue to happen. that affordable housing is a priority of her administration. laser-focused on the middle class. if she can reiterate this message and also, integrate

trusted surrogates, trusted folks in the latino community to make the case and say, hey, kamala understands the community. she understands the problems with trump. we'll not only get chaos but someone who is hostile to the hispanic community. who will round up 11 million people in our community and start departing them on day one. i think she can increase her numbers with this group that is showing a little understandable reluctance at this stage of the campaign. >> it's interesting. listening to these voters, it harkens me back to two months ago when we had this huge pool of the double haters. right? they were not satisfied with the two-party system and the choice between trump and biden. there still seems to be a little bit of that. resigned to having to pick the lesser of two evils. does this get back to the opportunity for harris, that she has the opportunity to separate herself from joe biden and the party at large?

>> that's absolutely the case. donald trump is 100% name i.d. he is a known quantity to every voter. even those voters that are not paying close attention to the election. he's defined. if you're not with him already, it's likely you aren't going to be. kamala harris, even though she's been vice president for four years, still a very large unknown quantity outside of the political junky universe like many of us watching here on the network right now. if she can make that case in the traditional start of the campaign, these final 60 days, the day after labor day when the focus will be on, i suspect the debate will have high ratings because of this. a lot of folks were excited about the biden-trump match-up. they will want to see who harris is. that will be her opportunity to define herself and win back some of the voters and tap out, max out what she can get with hispanic voters. >> every time we do one of these segments, i'm left with the feeling that it's a long way to go and we have no idea what will happen. thank you both for being here.

we appreciate it. grocery prices are front and center this election cycle with vice president harris campaigning on a plan to ban price gouging as inflation weighs on americans' wallets. now the supermarket kroger is blamed with price gouging. they testified during the trial that the supermarket spiked prices on everyday items like milk and eggs. joining me now, christine, tell us more about this. it was pretty shocking the way they admitted it. how can they affecting their anti-trust file to block a merger between kroger and albertson's? >> a mega merger. the government is really against going to court saying when you have fewer players, less competition and bad for consumers. both companies saying they're stronger, more competitive and can lower prices if they merge. this email that you're talking about is from a pricing

executive. and this email was played out in court by the ftc. they said milk and eggs, retail inflation has been significantly higher than the cost of inflation. the government really zeroing in on this to say that instead of just passing the higher cost during the pandemic to consumers, they passed more than the higher price to consumers. what is kroger saying? they're saying this is a cherry-picked email. it does not reflect its years and years of trying to lower prices by reducing its margins. this will be a fascinating story to play out even next week when you have the ceos of three grocery store chains who will take the stand. the government will try to show that these companies, their pricing models are men to be to the advantage of shareholders, not to consumers. i'm sure you will hear about albertsons dividend payout to its investors last year. although the government could say, look, while people were

paying high prices at the grocery store, investors were getting a share of the profits, instead of the profits being spent to lower prices for consumers. two world views here. you have the companies saying to compete against costco and walmart, we need to together together. the government is saying no, no, bigger is not better for consumers. >> and it affects so many people. thank you so much. we appreciate it. next, back to the courtroom. this time in california. califo. what tractor supply customers experience is personalized service. made possible by t-mobile for business. with t-mobile's reliable 5g business internet. employees get the information they need instantly. this is how business goes further with t-mobile for business.

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visit coventrydirect.com. in just a matter of hours, one of the two doctors charged in connection with the death of hollywood actor matthew perry is expected to appear in court. dr. mark chavez reached a plea deal with prosecutors and is set to be arraigned on charges of conspiring to distribute ketamine to perry. it revealed shocking details about the role of chavez and another dr. known as dr. p are accused of playing in perry's death, including that they sold the actor $55,000 of other about perry asking, quote, i wonder how much this moron will pay. nbc's chloe melas is following this for us and with us is msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos. i'm told everyone can hear me know.

what's the latest we're learning about in this case? >> in about two hours, dr. mark chavez will have his formal arraignment. he is the last of the five that were charged in connection with matthew perry's death to be arraigned. he will enter his guilty plea at a later date. he faces ten years in federal prison. those text messages in the sweeping indictment earlier this month, just damming. i want to point out that dr. chavez, he was already under investigation by the medical board in california, and also by the drug enforcement administration. according to the indictment, dr. chavez actually distributed ketamine to dr. plascencia who has pled not guilty with a fraudulent prescription. and, yes, the text messages between the two of them discussing how much, quote, this moron will pay, referring to matthew perry when it came to the ketamine. hopefully over the next couple of weeks, and especially if dr. plascencia and the alleged

ketamine queen, if they go to trial, more details may come out about how they got linked up with matthew perry in the first place. >> talk to us about how the chavez plea deal with prosecutors, because he's agreed to help them go after the main targets that chloe was talking about, dr. p. and the woman known as the k ketamine queen. >> every defendant ends up pleading guilty, 90 plus percent. these are exactly the kinds of defendant, someone like mark chavez is exactly the kind of defendant that rushes to plead guilty and ends up cooperating. and when the smoke clears, it may be, i would bet, maybe only sanga is going to trial because she's facing a mandatory minimum of ten years, and that might encourage the defendant to roll the dice. you may see everyone eventually end up pleading guilty.

the arraignment goes forward, it's a short process. could last ten to 15 minutes. after that, what happens is the defendant typically pleads guilty, and the government holds off on sentencing until that defendant has delivered the goods. they have given the information to the prosecutors that they want. they have maybe testified in court. they have basically cooperated to the fullest extent, and only that way is how they get the maximum benefit from pleading guilty and cooperating. this is proceeding exactly as i would expect for a federal case like this and for defendants like chavez. >> talk about what potentially could be the benefit to chavez in particular if he cooperates in full. right now, he's pleading guilty and could face up to ten years in prison as part of the agreement. how could that prison sentence come down based on how helpful he is? >> there's a huge difference in federal court between mandatory minimums, facing a ten-year mandatory minimum. that means the judge cannot go below that if she's convicted

and sentenced. he or she has to sentence somewhere above ten years. chavez, on the other hand, is in a totally different position, a statutory maximum of ten years, and no mandatory minimum. the guidelines allow for a lot of leeway. while the guidelines calculations may end up being severe, five, seven years, ultimately, all the sentencing guidelines in federal court are advisory only. the judge has to calculate them, but the judge can go below the sentencing guidelines. with a maximum of ten years if the sentencing guidelines are around five to seven years, it's not likely he would get probation only. he's likely to get a whole lot less than the maximum ten years by pleading guilty. you get the coveted 5k letter, this defendant cooperated, gave us everything we wanted. we're on board with him being labeled as someone who

cooperated and completely cooperated with us, judge, do with him as you will. >> and chavez is one of three people who has agreed to a plea deal with prosecutors. what does that tell us about a wider investigation? >> that it's proceeding by government prosecution 101. they will usually flip as many people, once the first person flips, the race is on because the value of your cooperation diminishes the more of your codefendants are cooperating. you do not want to be the last person standing and that could be jasmine sangha when the smoke clears. she may have the most to lose if she's facing a statutory mandatory minimum sentence of ten years. when it comes to defendants in federal court that are professionals like dr. chavez, these are usually people who don't have the stomach for a trial in federal court where they know the numbers are against them. of those 10% of people who

proceed to trial in federal court, 90% of them are convict. the statistics are in, if you're charged in federal court, you're almost certainly going to be convicted whether you plead guilty or go to trial. >> chloe melas, danny cevallos, thank you both, we appreciate it. that does it for me. have a happy and safe holiday weekend. follow me on x @ryan obles. just one n. katy tur picks up the coverage next. p the coverage next chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light-headedness, can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk. this is no time to wait. power e*trade's easy-to-use tools, like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis, help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market.

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