there are no analogues, and this helps us a lot. in terms of scientific personnel capable of solving world-class problems, has the aircraft industry become depleted? well, the problem is not simple, really, right? now, of course, there are a lot of competitors, employers, so, well, well, corporations, that means, well, it would be nice to have corporations that built ships, so to speak, or power plants, there or something like that, you know, that’s where physics is.

however, the guys are leaving - well, into the banking sector, all sorts of consulting companies are leaving, where, so to speak, well, that’s where money, where they pay well, and of course for us they are serious competitors, so they came and immediately assigned him a big salary, yeah, but working with us and becoming a specialist, this is not a quick process, people there defend dissertations, and more than one candidate’s , then a doctorate. well, as a product, so to speak, the most valuable, so to speak, well , intellectual, so, that is, it is a highly trained intellect capable of creating completely new qualities, and so, and there, of course, already at this stage, as a rule , the guys receive very decent salaries, even higher than they would have continued to work , well, in it, let’s say,

sergey alyanetovich, thank you very much for the conversation, please, hello, it’s been ten years in russia. science and

technology television company ntv and the state corporation rosatom present a program, science and we , a program on how science will change our lives in the next 10 years. i'm vladimir antokhin, i'm ekaterina shugaeva. in 10 years, russia will conquer the microchip market. well, it sounds just like that, and that’s exactly how it will be. at the end of the program , our guests, optimists and skeptics will do forecast. how likely is it that in 10 years russia will really conquer the microchip market? about the history of microchips. the very idea of ​​​​creating microchips appeared back in 1952, when jeffrey dahmer proposed combining many electronic components in a semiconductor monolith. in 1959 , the first integrated circuit was developed, and the first patent scandal immediately arose. our first integrated circuit was created in... rog at

the radio engineering institute. the soviet silicon integrated circuit was created by order of the military, the first samples were delivered from usa for defense orders. this was a decisive step for the development of ballistic missile guidance systems. the global microchip market today is worth $45 billion and continues to grow. our country does not lag behind global trends. according to the plan, by 2030 , at least 100 microelectronics design centers should operate in russia, the longer term is complete import substitution in this area and the introduction of our own products to the global market, sounds inspiring, now the main thing is to do it, well, we’ll be very keen on this count, but for now i have a personal question for you, about a bank card, i know that you have one, but do you have a troika card? there’s also a troika card, well, i mean

, there’s also a bank card, a troika in the bank card, it turns out there are also microchips, by the way, there are, wait. well, in the bank room i can still see, here he is, there’s nothing at all in the troika, well, just don’t cut it, yes konstantin mikhailovich, well, really, everyone says microchips, microchips, it all started with such a radio tube, so who cares was needed, what function did it perform and what happened after it? absolutely right, it all started with radio tubes, a radio tube is two electrodes, a cathode is an anode, and electrons fly from cathode to anode, devices,

amplifiers can be made on tubes, which is the main component of all electronic ones because the signal is attenuated, amplifiers are constantly needed, and accordingly also you can make digital equipment using lamps, one current flows, zero current flows, and the first...

but on one crystal

an idea finally came to mind: let's make a plate like this silicon, there are a billion transistors on it at once, and then we will cut it into pieces, each fragment is a microcircuit, an integrated circuit. splinter in english - chip, chip. that's what a microchip is. a microchip is an integrated transistor circuit made by cutting a large wafer into many, many pieces. it’s amazing, i thought only buns used to be cut like that, remember, in trays, like this. wow, valeria anatorich, who came up with the idea that it was necessary to make microchips, well, who, i think, was the first to come up with, for example, why, after all, in principle the transistor lamp works well. why did they suddenly decide to replace the lamp with a transistor first? you know, the lamps worked well, but they were so bulky and so energy-intensive that just because of the energy intensity and size, yes, yes, and you know, in order to

create household appliances you need all sorts of miniature devices, but at least you i don’t know how to create a phone, a smartphone, and so on, so how can we create such a lamp? put it in such an elegant device, it didn’t work, it didn’t work, and after that it was necessary to come up with something, in 1948 the first transistor was invented, the era of transistors began, transistors are unique components of electrical circuits that made it possible to create terribly complex circuits, but the problem began to lie in something else: you can theoretically create everything, but practically and practically not it turned out that we are now moving on to the creation of, well, a chip, at the end of the fifties the first

semiconductor computer was created, which included 200, 25 thousand transistors, 100,000 codes of hundreds of thousands of capacitors, resistors, and so on then the question arises, that is, theoretically we developed a circuit, but now how to practically create it and then... problems immediately began, firstly, purely humanly, it was necessary to solder everything with ordinary electrical cords, which means it’s defective, which means it’s difficult and so on, therefore, in general, as i said konstantin mikhailovich, yes, we came to this idea that it was necessary to assemble it somehow, well, at first there was a modular assembly, it didn’t work, we tried to reduce these composite materials, it didn't work out in 1958 and jack kilby, on july 7 he gives a description of the first chip, and

already on february 6, 1959 he receives a patent for it, but as our respected professor said, this is where a patent scandal arose, why? because regardless of him, at the same time robert nous, if i’m not mistaken, creates a similar device that works even better, and after 10 years the supreme court... the united states issues a verdict that robert nous should be considered the founding father, although jack kilby received the nobel prize in 2000 for creating the chip, is it really true that we no one created anything like this, we worked all this time on lamps, we ’ll talk about us later, but after the advertisement, advertisement on ntv, we heard about toda. it’s a pity, he was a good guy, but you’re still at the moscow opera, the boss didn’t get drunk, it’s still the same, but what

’s going on in the village that everyone has become so timid? he wanted to find those responsible for the death of his grandfather, such people are tied up in this topic, neither you nor i can jump, yours, by the way, is from moscow, but the main witness in this case turned out to be a dolphin, the dolphin found him, then he brought me, my grandfather i drowned here, what... 2.15 on ntv. toufon eye drops are created specifically to nourish and restore

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future, dear sincerely, and not like a worn-out phrase from a sticker, we do not throw words to the wind and do not abandon our own, join his, on the air program, science and a program about how science will change our lives in the next 10 years, in 10 years russia will conquer microchips, there is nothing easier than making a microchip, says our expert, professor kapustin. a microchip can be made even at home, we take a flat plate, grow silicon atoms on it, well, all this in a vacuum, of course, after oxidizing the atoms, we make a film of silicon oxides or hafnium silicates, they have a high dielectric constant, on top we apply

a special polymer destroyed by ultraviolet radiation, draw an image of the future diagrams, cut out what is needed, remove what is unnecessary, use either acid for this, or carry out gas etching and finally introduce the necessary chemical elements, then high-temperature firing to restore the structure of the semiconductor, and finally we cover the entire surface with copper, and for all this you will only need a few grams of copper, milligrams of gold, a month of work and... 50 kv of electricity, well, mere nonsense, well, in general, yes, after the program we’ll work on it in the evening, yes artyom vladimirovich, well, that’s how it works microchip and micro in general - how much is it? in general , micro is one millionth of a meter; for comparison, it is 10 times thinner than a human hair. the operating principle of a microchip or

microcircuit is based on the transmission, processing of a signal and its subsequent translation. the digital signal is now constricting the analog signal, and we can clearly see this in the example of television, which is just coming to digital format. the operating principle of the microchip is quite clear, a large number of specialists take part in its development, these are chemists, physicists, materials scientists and it specialists, we have all these specialists in our country, but a microchip and microcircuits are generally the same thing or are they different things, a microchip is a trivial name for a microcircuit, it’s the same thing, it’s the same thing, okay, wait, if you... in a lamp, for example, current flows, doesn’t flow, in a transistor flows, doesn’t flow, in a microchip, what goes where? in a microchip there is a signal, a signal, it goes, it doesn’t go, but it is no longer analog, not electrical, but what does digital mean, what does it consist of, it can, it can be analog and digital, and it can also be analog-digital, these are those microchips that transform one type of signal into another, and that is, now there are different chips,

analog, digital, analog-digital, and are there any quantum ones already? this is actually the size of the transistor on the chip, that is, now in russia we can make chips of 100, 120, 63 nanometers, and so we very often hear that in the west advanced technology allows us to make 7 nanometers, 5 n, this is not... so, please note that manufacturers say it is made using 7 nnom technology, not a 7 nm transistor, one german engineer has nothing to do during covid. made sections of transistors made using 7 nm and 5 nm technology. it turned out that the transistors there are 26 and 22 nanometers in size,

that is, in general, my colleagues in zelenograd say that all manufacturers, if less than 60 nm, begin to lie, and the further, the more, they say: this is not a lie, this is marketing, wait , we make as much as you said 108, 109, we make 120, 160 and, here are the main manufacturers, how much do they make? in the west and in china they actually do it in the area twenty, that is, in fact, our lag is not so great, it’s not such a big lag, and for most applications 60 nanometers is enough, okay, konstantin mikhailovich, i’ll try to correct you, it means that in russia the most high-tech process right now is 180 nanometers , nanometers are precisely not the size of the transistor, but the size of the channel of the transistor, so the transistor itself, as you say, can be...

one of the largest clusters is an enterprise located in the city of zelenograd, there is also a university there, a leading university that trains specialists for microelectronics, this is the moscow institute of electronic technology, one of the most important enterprises of the most high-tech enterprises in russia is the micro joint-stock company, which prepares chips for troika cards, for one-time metro tickets for the light this chip will be...

bring it up, scan it, not a barcode, just like this metal one, just like that, yes, that is, there are a number of other enterprises, these are more modern enterprises. radskiy nanotechnology center, other enterprises are located in novosibirsk and tomsk, kaluga, st. petersburg and moscow. about 150 enterprises are now engaged in the production of microchips. in fact, if we understand by microchips, including semiconductor elements and microwave elements, then there will be about 600 of these enterprises. this is your question about how now, and how? the most interesting? so in fact, if konstantin mikhailovich said it correctly, that is, there are various technological processes, yes, in russia this is the most modern

the current technological process is 180 nanometers. basically, enterprises still work with micron technologies, these are one and two microns, there is a microwave enterprise, why everything is done in a vacuum, so that it’s all micro- nano. elements so that no dirt, no specks of dust get in there, all this will affect the quality of the microcircuits, and the last question is who are the main manufacturers in the world, you told us everything about russia, that we have almost 600 enterprises there , in the world the main producers - who are they? in the world the main producer is currently taiwan, what percentage of the market do they have, for example, about 50% of the market, the rest are further away, no, the rest, that is, there are.

okay, then i have a question that is relevant, let’s say, artyom vladimirovich, well, ursula fonderline there is such a young lady, she responsibly asserted and continues to assert that in russia, it means that we take microchips out of washing machines, we insert them into rockets, and so i have a question... how long is this really true, where is this microchip, why exactly from washing machines, that is, is it really possible

to get it out of the washing machine, well, i don’t know. well, insert it into the dagger and then what will happen, he will still dry the laundry while he flies, jokes are jokes artyom vladimirovich, she said this completely seriously, we really want to understand, i can upset ursula fondern, this is impossible to do, microchips are not universal and they are intended for use for a specific purpose, respectively, for certain purposes, and as my colleague andrei nikolaevich already said, microchips have different purposes, including power devices and transmitting. devices and of course, if a microchip is created with the ability to spin a washing machine, then in no case will it control a rocket, it will not work for my troika, as she generally said, i think that she does not know the technology of producing microchips so well, as they are known in russia. artyom vladimirovich, microchips in household appliances and, for example, washing machines, are made in plastic cases, microchips for critical use are made either in

metal. ceramic cases or in metal or some other, but more resistant to external influencing factors, respectively, well, just the life time of this microcircuit in responsible use will be much less, but purely theoretically, a controller from a car, a microcontroller, is essentially a small microprocessor, can be used in any technology, including hiv, and how much is needed today, you are an economist, and you are not just an economist, you... in principle, the number of microchips we need is determined by the structure of the economy, which means we must produce only those microchips that correspond to our structure,

microchips that correspond to our structure.

device, service equipment, and there we use chips 45 nanometers in size, but of course our production is not very large, the sales market is small, so for us here somewhere it is enough again , judging by open data from 1. to 500 these microchips, that is, 90 and above - that’s about 30-40 thousand a month, 45 and that’s somewhere from one to five.

the number of chips should double and triple even somewhere there should be about 100.00 per month to 150, we have 600 enterprises that will handle such volumes just like that, but you know, for example, i can tell you, for example, the chinese smik factory, they are currently building a fifth factory with a capacity of 100,000 wafers per month, that's just one factory, one factory and 100,000 wafers per month and that's it. per year, and there they produce 100,000 wafers per month, well, we ’ll talk about the future later, but after the advertising, for now let’s send mrs. fonder a washing machine, a dagger, that too, but later, an advertisement on ntv.

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television competition tefi region. details on the website tefi.ru. the program is on air. we are science, science and we are a program about how science will change our lives in the next 10 years, in 10 years russia will conquer the microchip market, well, that’s why not everyone can make microchips, argues our expert, professor kapustin. chip production is not the strength of all countries. the microchip market has changed dramatically in recent years. if 30 years ago 80% of microcircuits were produced in the usa and europe, now half of the market is controlled by china, hong kong and taiwan. why has production changed so radically? the microchip industry cannot be built without a huge multilateral base. the development of new chips is based primarily on scientific

research, highly qualified personnel with advanced degrees, and continuous research over many years. there was even an expression: chip graduate students, young researchers studying microcircuits. fortunately, russia has a high level of science, so we are definitely not lagging behind in the field of research, and the quality. support for microelectronics enterprises. with this step, the state actually recognized the importance of the industry for the country and for the economy. let's hope that this program will be implemented one way or another; the first steps will be followed by the rest. it will be, it will be, i have no doubt in our science and enterprises. let’s just talk a little about the future, konstantin

mikhailovich, if we develop the production of microchips in russia, what related technologies will we have thanks to this? will appear, you can go out, yes, of course, of course, i’m always for it, we will redraw, let’s, okay, yes, we talked about transistors, a transistor is an element that regulates the current.

it causes a magnetic field around itself, of course, around itself, yes, there is a current flowing, there is a magnetic field around it, a magnetic field, well, it is usually denoted by the letter big phi, now what radio components are used, the charge voltage is connected by a part called a capacitor, and two plates, one has more charge, the other has less voltage, literally this is how it is designated as the first capacitors, just two metal plates with...

an inductor, and now look at this picture, a beautiful picture, yes, but something is missing, yes, yes, the most important thing, absolutely right, the fourth side for a complete square, here is a chinese scientist, tsai shaotang, excuse me, an american physicist, a chinese physicist emigrating to america, king shaotang, he drew this like this and made this brilliant observation, look, people, something is missing,

many of us found floppy disks, that is the memrister can simultaneously work as a processor register and as a memory cell. based on memristers, you can make so -called neuromorphic networks, our neurons in the body, we don’t have neurons that process information and neurons that remember, each neuron at the same time processes information and remembers in this sense like a memrister, at the same time, that is, it’s like particles, electrons, at the same time

a field, at the same time one at a time, that is, it remembers, it is passive, that is, with the help of memristers you can create neurons. neuromorphic networks, they remove the main problem of modern electronics, the so-called von neumann funnel, what limits the performance of transistor microchips is the connection between the processor and memory, the communication bus is what limits it, it doesn’t even allow more than yes, our

russian processor elbrus bus memory is licensed from the californian synopsis. china said last year with great fanfare: we have done our process. entirely chinese, the memory bus is licensed from the synopsis, because the californian synopsis of all overtook by 30 years, here in memrister chips there is no bus, that is, the processor is memory at the same time, no bus, no problem, we don’t pay money to synopsis, regardless of the americans, and well, yes, of course, here’s memrister a few years ago, 4 more years ago, it was this size, this is what it looked like, but of course no one... will put these memristors in a stack, everyone knows where it’s going, it’s about chips, but it needs to be done right away on some kind of some crystal, right, right, and then can i draw here, in last year, a chinese scientist from tsinghua university, if i’m pronouncing it correctly, came up with a brilliant idea,

let’s use a regular transistor chip as a substrate for the future memrister chip, that is, we have a memrister, what does he propose to do? here we have two wires made of a terrible alloy, aluminum there , telur, something else there, at the crosshairs of these wires, these flat wires create a mimrister, and under it, in the form of a substrate , a transistor, we get a circuit combining a transistor and a memristor, so the transistor is the control element of memristors, we define the circuit with the transistor, and... memristers work as memory registers, it turned out that it works great, simply amazing, in october last year, six months ago, the chinese announced that they had created the first on the planet, they showed memrister and neuromorphic chip, moreover, well, yes, the chinese have a chip size of about one micron,

by the way, they are all quite small, yes, i ’ll write here, one micron is 100 nanometers of nanometers. and our kurchatov center can now make wires 10 times larger thinner than a human hair, that is, from four to 10 micrometers, and if the ministry of education and science gives money, next year the kurchatov center together with the zelenograd mikron plant will release the first in russia, immediately the first in russia, the first mimrister chip measuring 10 mm, what great fellows. everything is fine, it doesn’t even count, but again, if the money is only a year and a half behind the chinese, well , yes, we are lagging behind in terms of size, it’s not a big deal, that’s if the ministry of transport gives money, but of course, of course, there are also americans, of course, american youth don’t become engineers,

there are no young electronics engineers there, but ibm is a dreadnought, financial, scientific, engineering, ibm has enough money and enough old personnel, and ibm. in october, literally a week after the chinese, they announced the release of their own neuromorphic chip called the north pole, in which mimrister is emulated by hundreds of transistors, of course, this is not so effective, but ibm is moving in this direction, that is, maybe they are ahead of us and the chinese, but they keep everything secret, and we just talk about it we don’t know, but mimristers, this is a revolution, this is... you can imagine, the energy consumed here is hundreds of times less than transistors, in a three card you can have a neural network, in a button you can have a neural network, which is a little scary, what card. or maybe we won’t like this future, because microdevices, microdevices implanted into the human

body, with a neural network, with artificial intelligence will become a reality, everyone is talking about driverless cars, devices, and what everyone, of course, thinks about, but absolutely no one spoke out loud he says, these are miniature killer drones, it’s okay, we will defeat everyone, because the americans chose a bad name for themselves, the north pole, the north pole is ours, we have it there, we have it there. okay, andrei nikolaevich, i ’ll hold it for now, okay, we’ll consider this my mimristrov, the future one. andrei nikolaevich, what is the main problem in russia today with the production of, okay, microchips, and he is mimristrov, is it just money, or is something else missing, no, look, to make it clear, the problems can be divided into three such large classes, here is the first class, the lowest - this is chemistry, the second big problem is ... with tank building, it so happened that starting from the nineties with tank building

there was something left in ukraine, something in belarus, something in russia, but the entire cycle - the necessary technological equipment for creating a technological line for the production of microchips in russia now we do not produce, only we are approaching this, even our institute, just recently, only received work on the order of the ministry of industry and trade of russia for growth. production furnace just the same silicon ingots, and you will be surprised, but up to this point we have been using furnaces since the seventies, produced by the german democratic republic, denmark , and only now are we approaching the fact that there will be a domestic furnace. so, in the whole machine tool industry, the third thing that is on the surface is software, it’s not for nothing that konstantin mikhailovich mentioned the american synopsis here, and there are also cadences, and there are many more. various programs in which it is the designer who creates the microcircuit. i'm ready for all three questions

now i can object to you, because we have made progress in software, in import substitution in high-purity chemicals, not only with gas, but also with liquids, we have also been moving successfully for quite a long time, these works were never abandoned, and even in the difficult nineties in our country these work was carried out, and microns and angstrom are good examples of this, here. we have a large number of guys entering the university with an it profile who, among other things, develop software not only for managing these microchips, but also for technologies for their creation, as for the machine tools, as for the machine tool, i will also be happy to comment, because in... in our country there has been a program for a long time to solve this problem accordingly, one of the universities is involved in this,

stankin, machine tool-building moscow university , i think that other universities are also working on this work in their areas of competence, the third question concerned chemistry, i answered it at the very beginning, because i think that foreign colleagues still use crystals of russian origin from our flint, but i think they have it... it’s also unlikely that all of them have chilean, it’s not for nothing that copper production is now moving to china for naril nickel , we prepare it closer and the chemist needs to prepare more, but we need more, we need a lot of young specialists, as professor kapustin said with academic degrees, not only candidates, but also doctors of science, so that they can create scientific schools, develop them, in our country not only inopromtorka is engaged in this, the mine education is growing personnel, large companies come on their own initiative to finance talented people. support developments, and as soon as high-purity substances appear, a line of

commercial and private investors immediately lines up for them, they feel the world market is interested, so here i am still optimistic, let's look to the future with optimism, but for now let's look at advertising, advertising on ntv. svetlana petrovna, good afternoon, the security service of your bank, another moment and the fraudster would have had access to the money, a suspicious transaction on your account, but svetlana petrovna turned on the intelligence officer, the count went on for seconds, urgently dictate your card number so that the money can be transferred to a secure account, i called the bank, she hung up, whoever the scammers pretend to be, to get money out of you, hang up without talking, on the air program, science and we are a program about that... science will change our lives in the next 10 years, in 10 years russia will conquer the microchip market, but to find out whether this will happen or not, dear guests, optimists and skeptics, i have

a question for you all: with what probability russia after all? you know, well, we have no other way but to conquer this market, we probably have every opportunity to accomplish this miracle, this breakthrough, but not in 10 years, why not in 10 years, because we have already recalled the taiwanese war here company. and it ’s called tsms, it seems, yes, it was created in 1987, and only in 30 years it was able to get closer to the leading companies in the chip market, in 30 years, and that is, we will probably succeed, but not within 10 years, probably the period should be longer, this is the first thing, and if we bypass everyone at the corners,

you see, we’ll immediately start as holobs and mimristers. everyone, as long as they have their own path there, and we just cut it off, i agree, but we must believe in a miracle, well, for now, let’s forecast a miracle, yes, well, i’m just an economist, but i’m arguing exclusively , nothing personal, just like an economist , the second one needs money, one plant for the production of microchips, they say it costs from 15 to 20 billion, but for our entire program to create a radio...

they invest in something that is unknown, whether it will work or not, that’s the best thing i think it’s also very important what we’re talking about we forget, well, in 10 years, we will be ahead of the rest, where are we going to put these chips, we have to market, market s'. we must have a sales market, we must produce what we will insert it into, forecast for 10 years, 10%, 10%, thank you very much, not a single country in the world today has a full production cycle of microchips on its territory, then

we definitely won’t be able to completely produce microchips. that is, we are talking about a significant part of the production cycle, asml machines, dutch, which are used for making microchips today, these are the most complex machines made by mankind to date. the netherlands spent more than 20 years and a quarter of a trillion dollars to create them. for comparison, this is how much time and money russia spent on supporting the ukrainian economy from 1991 to 2014, that is, this is the scale of the numbers. can we catch up with this? no, but we don’t need it, that is, we can buy used machines in western europe, the chinese buy used machines in japan and this way we can produce those chips that we need. as for something new, as i already said, memristors, a collaboration of italian and chinese physicists working at king abdullah university in saudi

arabia has already been proven, last year they showed that... memristors can be made in a quarter of a micron 230 nm, as soon as we are able to make wires 100 meters wide, russia can instantly become the world leader in the production of neuromorphic chips, transistor chips will begin to be replaced, that is, this may well happen in the coming 10 years, so i'm optimistic about the future and my answer is 70%. 70%, thank you very much. i would not pose this task here like this, because russia should be a technologically independent state and produce electronics; we should not chase global trends and become a leader in the production of mobile phones or consumer electronics there, we need to create that responsible equipment that will ensure our independence on the planet,

if we start from this point of view and... and don’t go into commercial element base, then the probability of this is quite high, and i agree with konstantin mikhailovich here on 70%, but if we are talking about the commercial market and... then the number of our country compared to world countries is very small, and we will not be able to provide the market, so just imagine - a billion phones for india, several billion for china, only 140 million of which not everyone needs mobile phones here, we simply will not be able to secure this market for ourselves and the excess of necessary microchips, so we will not be able to for commercial chips. thank you big, according to my forecast, with a probability

of 75%, our country will conquer the world microchip market, it will form it, including developing it, it will become a good export product of our country, just like nuclear energy, like energy resources, it will be a high-tech science-intensive , 75%, thank you very much, with a probability of 56% russia will conquer the microchip market, thank you very much, more than half, which means that if 56% of the world market were to conquer me too, i really don’t care about this global market, the most important thing is that we we'll be for ourselves...

nice, yes, well, don't forget about the bauman mstu, it was a program, science and we are a program about how science will change, including our lives in the next 10 years, see you in a week , bye.

cool, so we went for a ride, yeah.