again, some more news at the top of the alley, i suppose, the historically, and there's never been a model of any military alliance auto political in the lines. that is the fundamental difference between india and many of the other countries. so this comes with the total price because as you said, that uh, alliances and countries which want you to be a part of them. and if you're not, then you looked upon with suspicion. belinda, as kind of as showed all these black and white divisions of the

the the of the you might think that when a major international bank is caught violating the laws of dozens of countries, including in the areas of money laundering and tax evasion, it would want to clean up a tax, you might think that when this major international bank is caught breaking the law

red handed by a whistleblower, who then reports his or her revelations to the us department of treasury and justice. that the bank would want to ensure that it's and it's employees then word solely within the confines of the law. unfortunately though, at least in the case of swiss banking, giant, u. b. s. u would be wrong. i'm john kerry, onto welcome to the whistle blowers, the . 2 2 2 2 2 2 last year we told you the story of bradley broken, spelled d u b s. whistleblower who reported to the us government that u. b. s. had helped literally thousands of wealthy americans avoid federal taxes and longer money off shore, particularly in accounts in the caribbean. broken fields revelations eventually resulted in u. b. s paying a penalty of $780000000.00. at the time that was the biggest fine ever imposed on

a bank in 2008, about a year after brick and feld had reported u. b. s to the us government bank executives ordered some of its employees, including our next guest to destroy all of their computer files related to customers, with offshore accounts in switzerland. the unspoken message here was clear brook, and feld hadn't been able to reveal all of the banks, illegalities and bank executives wanted to destroy whatever evidence was left to try to protect themselves from further litigation, prosecution, and fines. but one employee, stephanie chabot refused to destroy every it's and she was the only one. stephanie protested to u b. s. management and to french regulators. her documents would eventually help to identify $38000.00 offshore bank accounts, containing $12000000000.00. u b. s responded by trying to fire her during the 2008

financial crisis. the french government intervene, but u. b. s. was successful in harassing and intimidating her and didn't isolating her professionally. she soon begin suffering from anxiety and depression. in 2012 u b. s finally fired her, and not only did the bank fire her, but it sued her to seeking damages for defamation. after the publication of her book, the woman who knew too much part of that series of lawsuits, plagues her today. with that said, stephanie did not roll over. she filed her own suit against u. b. s seeking compensation totaling 3500000 euros. she won. but the judge gave her only 4500 zeros u. b. s. eventually paid a record fine of $4900000000.00 in 2019. but stephanie was left financially ruined and blacklisted in the financial sector. in the united states, whistle blowers are usually rewarded financially for their whistle blowing. brick

and field was given a whistle blower. we're award of $104000000.00. that was a record at the time just a few years ago. another whistleblower whose anonymous was given $200000000.00 for providing information about deutscher bank submitted the elation of the lead board benchmark. stephanie is now seeking to become the 1st french whistleblower to be awarded compensation for her revelations. stephanie's you bo, welcome to the show. we are very happy to have you. thank you, john for we're kind 40 coming me here. thank you very much, stephanie. it's painful to read what you have gone through over the past 15 years. you did the right thing. other whistle blowers who did exactly the same thing that you did were richly rewarded for you. it was the beginning of the end of your career. so take us back to you vs in 20072008. bradley burke and failed had just made his revelations,

your superiors ordered you to destroy bank files. and then what happened and i do not comply. which means that as i refused dealing those fives because somehow it was not understanding what it meant. uh, its very strange to work in a company for 10 years and all of a sudden there is a kind of to now me the had been a search in the face of the general manager and its off to the search that i was asked should you need my 5, but i could not understand the link between the search and the office of the general manager and my job. so somehow i just industry that they want you to get rid of me, that there was something wrong with me. i never, i mean i did not understand by that time that the content of lightning fires were extremely dangerous for the bank. uh,

i know i really could not understand what was wrong i, i just understood that there was something really wrong with me. so i thought i had made a mistake and i really felt that they wanted to get rid of me. and because i did not delete those fives, nor the archives because that was us. did you need 0 cars i had in my office because i didn't, i was not a big deal and then i suffered 3 and a half years to be as um, between 20082012. i suffered like many whistle blowers, which is harassment. isolate you sure. this trip days you'll be spending a complaint against me when i was still an executive of the bank. and um, well, it was the beginning of a very sad story because somehow i lived stopped in

june 2008 when i refused to do those fines. i saw an interview that you gave research very, very difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt you. i saw an interview that you gave recently to my friend chris hedges in which you said that when you were at u. b. s you never received any training in things like how to prevent money laundering or how to prevent income tax evasion. you also never received any ethics training. i'm certain that that's true because when i was at the c, i a i to never received any training and ethics or even in the rule of law. but you knew instinctively that what you were being ordered to do was wrong. what was it about you? more about your background that made you question what you were ordered to do? and it's true that i feel really different from many people, and i've always wondered why i was not behaving like others, somehow of

a kind of gale to no, no behaving like other people. and i think it's my personality, but i think it's going to be a couple of shock, a couple of shocks i suffered when i was a child named me. one of the things i can remember is when i was 12 years old line mother took me to a 2 parter and she took me to the hours of 8 scam. and i was not prepared for that . i was not mature enough. i was not prepared. i was too young and nice thing that the shock and tours for me made then me uh try to to challenge everything that had been told to me. why do people obey? what if it's wrong? why do we human beings who have, you know,

language scales compared to animals? why do we destroy our own space shoes? why? why do we comply without asking questions? you know, when yours a chart and if you have children, you know, the children ask lots of questions. mm hm. and i've continued as a grown up to always ask questions and not to accept things like they are. so it's my behavior. so because i was trusting u b. s, because i was voting my time and my energy to you b s i was seeing now, you know, my boss is and my colleagues mold and i was seeing my own children. me, obviously, when this story happened, i felt that something was really serious. it's really serious. you know, not something like and we were detained on the daily basis and you live towards

like, but what on earth is going on? so obviously it was extremely scared. i was in us, canada, what was in a state of fear exactly like, you know, hunted animals, you know, during the hunting season you see the other one was they were on everywhere on the extra we scared, but many, many people that you be as well. i this and usually fear paralyze these people when people are in a state of fear they don't do anything. they just bow, you know, they comply. yes. but may be because i had this experience as a terrific experience. so as a child, and because it's something i remember every, every day of my life, since maybe these tests to me, the less than of my life. like, i think think differently, you know, some house think out of the box and do what students do, what you have to do. i,

it's the only explanation i can, i can be, i think that's, i think that's a very good explanation. and you know, the psychologists who work with whistle blowers say that whistle blowers have a very clearly defined sense of right and wrong. it's, it's far more developed than the general population. one of the things that you have spoken about and written about has been the personal, social and professional solution that you've experienced. once you blew the whistle to french authorities, the bank worked hard to try to ruin you. so tell us what that was like, especially what was the reaction from your, your coworkers, from your friends, even from your family members? was there anybody that you could lean on for support? and while i was like anybody else who do i have the children, i had a family, i had friends on the social life, i had the drugs. so obviously i was doing what all of all of you do. i was going to

send them all. i was going into sports events that was going on holidays. but as i said, my life stopped in 2008 because nobody understood why i refuse to deal with this 5. why i decided to stand for the truth. why it didn't long to somehow shut up and be a be doing and be what everyone perceives as being a good person. somehow i was the monster i was perceived as the black sheep. yes. and i'll just be here. you know, we just talked about, uh about uh, about 4 die with eyes. so and what the end a student as a child, but what could happen with a know people's mind and uh, what they do when people are re news care. mm hm. but this is exactly fit your family, your friends, your cleanings, the potential employers,

even generalized. yeah, yeah. like but the water is that it's too violent. so people freeze, you know, and um, as you may know, the milligram experience you understand that everyone comply with the rules. if you know, an instruction is being given by authority, whoever they are, people just okay. they fall into the responsibility run, say he or she is responsible. i just of a, i am no trying this and i don't why i'm not like there's some help. i'm really angry at myself is because i'm myself that i'm, you know, being to the side of society. and so it's, it's extremely complicated because people knew, you know, we're talking about trust. i read his trust in my company. i renewed the trust in my managers. but i also trusted my friends and my family and my cummings and mine

to long try as i trust everybody, including the french societies afterwards, when i had to work with them. and somehow i understood that i don't know if it's fate. i have no idea. but somehow that the rude and was on was the one. no one wouldn't back up. i was too scary and many people have said that to me we understand that you a very courageous woman, but you know, you are very scared. mm hm. and i have never had this on my, on my shoulders before. so and yes it's um, it's a lesson of life somehow. what happened to me when i was 40 years for 40 years old and terrible. stephanie, please stay with us. we are going to take a short break. we're speaking with u. b. s. whistleblower, stephanie chabot, about her revelations of wrong doing at the bank, including the order destruction of evidence of criminal activity. we're going to

take that short break and come back to talk about the aftermath of her revelations and about her book state and. 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00]

the the welcome back to the best employers. i'm john kerry, who were speaking with u. b. s. was of lower stephanie zebo. stephanie, thanks again for being with us. thank you, john. there's a huge difference between being a banking whistleblower in the united states and being a banking whistleblower in france. in the united states. the whistleblower is eligible for a reward of between 26 and 34 percent of the amount of money that the government recovers. thanks to the whistle, blowers, revelations,

in the case of your former colleague, bradley burke and failed. for example. that meant that he received a $104000000.00 reward. but not only did you get nothing, you were harassed. why is the situation so different in france? why do whistle blowers there? have so few protections who it's going to be a very long? yeah, it could be a very long answer. big cose. first of all, what we can say is that the lows and friends are extremely new. new in the us have we start blowing in the constitution in france, it's back to 2016. hm. so only 7 years ago. so obviously they are no previous cases. i am the 1st one. this is on seen the sorry, and i've been telling you for the 1st couple of minutes it's and seen and it's

unknown. so as we have a new legal frame, well nobody is used to that. the lawyers are not used to, it just is nothing used to it. politicians as you know, the talk. and instead of talking the talk, they should walk the walk. but no one does because it's very complicated because it needs courage and it needs the truce. we still know we're, we're still living away. busy where lies are much more accepted than the truth. and i'm being warm during the fact that i'm a woman in this man's environment because finance is last man, everywhere you know was bankers and i was not and i was an altar banker. and also because i'm dealt with the ministry of finance, is where they are. many men maybe has something to do with that. i have no idea

because i'm french and i so i was a citizen of the so called country of human rights, right. which protects people or which way comes and protects people persecuted in countries. and you know, when there is a war when there are political scandals or political issues, i'm a french women. i stood up against frank bench and i worked for more than a year with sworn office yours. so the french government has low was because in france they have 2 separate close as a load to protect with the drawers and there's a low we should work with this with the state on fraud. and so the figures are different than what the new announce for the us. i think it's by 15 person. for the big pros, it's something like 15 percent, but then you'll be a scandal. is the biggest road ever ever? friends?

that's right. it's the biggest one. i've never seen that. yeah. they have never seen that and all of them, you know, civil servants i worked with never, never dealt with something is biggest as when that that leads to my next ones who was in charge of that. why don't they one of the lower to be applying to me me that leads to my next question. actually, i know that you are seeking legal redress against u. b. s. and that there are several parts of your lawsuit that are still pending. can you tell us about that lawsuit and about your work to have whistle blowers and friends recognized well, i used to have a pending case about the harassment i suffered at the bank, but also because somehow my life a substance as you know, the u. b. s. you know, in the media they were extra me, uh, angry and to me. so obviously this credit is crediting me was very easy and you'll be as being such a par,

4 bank because the older will assist. people have accounts with you b as a name. me on the ceo's on the heads of multinational companies on the heads of the media. so as i was a communication person on the sieves i send to, i've never received any answers to my career editors. so obviously the so called protection lo width of ours is suppose to make a windows case and u b. s would be, we have to pay what they owe me, which means the past 11 years, plus everything regarding my retirement right game and regarding pay raise and rebuilding inflation and regarding bonuses and regarding $1.00 of our it's a huge mistake for me. but i think it's up to you interesting for you be asked to because nearby s as this credit to me every where. mm hm. but i haven't started on

any documents. that's right. i had an internal uh, what's a blowing case i went in, so everyone a to be as the president, john badger the head of the h r i to the, to the head of legal and compliance. i talked to everyone i could refer to an order of them had the same model. so it was means that there was tired that there was no to banker, that that was unable to understand what was going on. so somehow i or they have or the played with me. however, as i held the french government and because u b. s has been fined because you b as a manager is i've been fined as well. they've been sentenced and fine. so it means that i told the truth me, if i told the truth, i guess that the judges will uh, trust me,

right. and that way when want my child versus to be asked. but once again, i am the 1st one. so when you are the 1st one, it's at least you with tip toeing on uh, on own channel, is it no, wait? oh yes, extremely difficult. oh yes, it's a new world in that respect. you're the one that the really, that's really creating the precedent for, for what comes next. i wanted to say also that i'm glad that i had the chance to read your excellent book, which i whole heartedly recommend to our viewers. one of the really terrific things about it besides your very compelling story is the fact that wiki leaks co founder julian assange wrote the introduction. can you tell us about that? how you got to know julian, hassan, and uh, and how he came to write the introduction to your book. well, i was honored to meet julian within the embassy of a quarter of

a quarter and the london towards the 8th 8 years ago. and we spent 4 hours and discussing many subjects, obviously the relation between whistler bowers and media. and the trust one has a just as a, as a, as a journalist with a whistle blower and as a width of lords or journalists because it's, it should be a win win situation. and what we can do is somehow to keep people informed and how to protect people and how to protect with the lawyers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. we have many, many, many subjects to discuss. and as you know, 2 years later, i think them to, to a record or decided that the junior would be kept a science and his cell phone was disconnected and he could not communicate to the world anymore. so i had a friend, was able to send you and your name, younger. and uh he agreed to provide me with

a text. and if you've read the book, i guess you read the children's text, which is extremely accurate rate. because he talks about the hypocrisy of permutations, about lies about the truth, about fair fights, about fighting for the truth. so the text in children has written is extremely important when you know what the situation is like in daily days and days, you know, has been detained for more than 4 years now. or yeah, and as you know, we might be extradited to the us any time now. yes. so the meeting i saw was for me so how extraordinary because i'm french and i'm a woman and i have a special profile as a whistle blower because i was not

a whistle blower who came public because i gave information to the press. i had to enter a little alerts and somehow i became a public person because right some people have given my. busy name to the media. so we talked to june about on that and i think that we will have to unite an or all of us who, whoever we are on dependence because this case is the case of our western democracies. you know? yes, as i've said to many people, um, because i gave you interviews everywhere in the world, is that only the dictatorships, a separate children, young children from the parents. yes. and who are we in europe? who are the breaks to have been able to separate julian from mrs. new to children being that when babies, when or when, when julian was taken to the last. and we have to stand between this family.

because uh, it's not only do you know, soul just case, it's all of us. it, oh god, read out speech. yes. and the freedom of the press and uh, it's information that all of those of citizens are supposed to get on a daily basis. a free information and obviously i'm sure it's informations, so we will have to stand for us. osha. well, i want to thank you, stephanie, very much for being with us. it was a pleasure speaking with you. thank you, john. thank you very much for. busy your time, the truth telling can be very difficult, unnecessarily. so the support of truth takes integrity. people with integrity do what they say they're going to do. others make excuses. people with integrity do the right thing, even when they know that they will pay a personal price. but the foundation stones for integrity, honesty,

character and loyalty. i for one and grateful for people like stephanie's hugo. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john kerry echo. we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 2 the, the, the,

[000:00:00;00] the, [000:00:00;00] the, the depth and grief spreads across garza as is waiting for means with ton to the end place. at least 200 people have been killed since friday, according to palestinian authorize. he's a local journalist, spoke to us from the territories. so it's vicinity what i'm a lots of posts, but that has been web twice times. i'll do that since haven't stopped crossing back and forth. people are discussing the chaos, not really where to go and not knowing where to sleep. the following worked with us