and some of its employees, including our next guest to destroy all of their computer files related to customers, with offshore accounts in switzerland. the unspoken message here was clear brook, and feld hadn't been able to reveal all of the banks. illegalities and bank executives wanted to destroy whatever evidence was left to try to protect themselves from further litigation, prosecution, and fines. but one employee, stephanie, she will refuse to destroy evidence and she was the only one. stephanie protested to u. b. s. management and to french regulators. her documents would eventually help to identify $38000.00 offshore bank accounts, containing $12000000000.00. u b. s responded by trying to fire her during the 2008 financial crisis. the french government intervene, but u. b. s. was successful in harassing and intimidating her and didn't isolating her professionally. she soon begin suffering from anxiety and depression. in 2012,

u b. s finally fired her and not only did the bank fire her, but it sued her to seeking damages for defamation. after the publication of her book, the woman who knew too much part of that series of lawsuits, plagues her today. with that said, stephanie did not roll over. she filed her own suit against u. b. s seeking compensation totaling 3500000 euros she one. but the judge gave her only 4500 zeros u. b. s. eventually paid a record fine of $4900000000.00 in 2019. but stephanie was left financially ruined and blacklisted in the financial sector. in the united states, whistle blowers are usually rewarded financially for there was a blowing brick and field was given a whistle blower we're award of $104000000.00. that was a record at the time just a few years ago. another whistle blower whose anonymous was given $200000000.00 for

providing information about deutscher bank submitted the elation of the lead board benchmark. stephanie is now seeking to become the 1st french whistleblower to be awarded compensation for her revelations. stephanie, she the welcome to the show. we are very happy to have you. thank you, john for we're kind for the coming me here. thank you very much, stephanie. it's painful to read what you have gone through over the past 15 years. you did the right thing, other whistle blowers who did exactly the same thing that you did were richly rewarded for you. it was the beginning of the end of your career. so take us back to u. b. s in 20072008. bradley burke and filled had just made his revelations, your superiors ordered you to destroy bank files. and then what happened? and i do the notes comply, which means that as i refuse to do,

need those fives because somehow i was not understanding what it meant. uh, it's very strange to work in a company for 10 years. and all of a sudden there's a kind of un nami, the had been a search in the face of the general manager. and it's after the search that i was asked should you need my 5. but i could not understand the link between the search and the office of the general manager and my job. so somehow i just understood that they want you to get rid of me, that there was something wrong with me. i never, i mean i do not understand by that time that the content of mine as far as where extremely dangerous for the bank. uh, i know i really could not understand what was wrong i, i just understood that there was something really wrong with me. so i thought i had

made a mistake and i really felt that they wanted to get rid of me. and because i did not delete those fives, nor the archives because then i was asked to leave their cars i had in my office because i didn't, i was not a being dude. then i suffered 3 and a half years to be as um, between 20082012. i suffered like many whistle blowers, which is harassment. isolate you sure. this trip days you'll be spending a complaint against me when i was still an executive of the bank. and um, well it, it was the beginning of a very, a sad story because somehow july life stopped in june 2008. when i refused to do those fines,

i saw an interview that you gave research very, very difficult. i'm sorry to interrupt you. i saw an interview that you gave recently to my friend chris hedges in which you said that when you were at u. b. s you never received any training in things like how to prevent money laundering or how to prevent income tax evasion. you also never received any ethics training. i'm certain that that's true because when i was at the c, i a i to never received any training and ethics or even in the rule of law. but you knew instinctively that what you were being ordered to do was wrong. what was it about you? more about your background that made you question what you were ordered to do. and it's true that i feel really different from many people and i've always wondered why i was not behaving like others, somehow of a kind of guilt. you know, no behaving like other people and i think it's my person, nancy,

but i think it's going to be a couple of shock, a couple of shocks i suffered when i was a child named me. one of the things i can remember is when i was 12 years old, my mother took me to a to paula and she took me to the hours of 8 scam. and i was not prepared for that . i was not mature enough. i was not prepared. i was too young and i thing that the shocking towards for me made then me uh, i try to, to challenge everything that had been told to me. why do people obey? what if it's wrong? why do we human beings who have, you know, language scales compared to animals? why do we destroy our own space shoes? why?

why do we comply without asking questions? you know, when you are a chart and if you have children, you know that children ask lots of questions. mm hm. and i've continued as a grown up to always ask questions and not to accept things like they are. so it's my behavior. so because i was trusting u b. s, because i was voting my time and my energy to be, as i was saying now, you know, my boss is and my colleagues more than i was seeing my own children. me obviously when this story happened, i felt that something was really serious. it's really serious. you know, not something like new or detail, no daily basis in life who's like, but what on earth is going on? so obviously it was extremely scared. i was in canada,

i'm always in the state of fear, exactly likes, you know, hunted animals, you know, during the hunting season you see the other one was a run everywhere on the extra we scared many, many people that u b. s. well i this and i usually fear paralyze these people when people are in a state of fear they don't do anything. the just boy, you know, they comply. yes. but may be because i had this experience as a terrific experience. so as a child, because it's something i remember every, every day of my life since maybe just has told me the less than of my life. like, i think think differently, you know, some house think out of the box and do what students do, what you have to do. i, it's the only explanation i can, i can do, i think that's, i think that's a very good explanation. and you know,

the psychologists who work with whistle blowers say that whistle blowers have a very clearly defined sense of right and wrong. it's, it's far more developed than the general population. one of the things that you have spoken about and written about has been the personal, social and professional solution that you experienced. once you blew the whistle to french authorities, the bank worked hard to try to ruin you. so tell us what that was like, especially what was the reaction from your, your coworkers, from your friends, even from your family members? was there anybody that you could lean on for support? well, i was like, anybody else who do i have children. i had a family, i had friends on the social life, i had the job. so obviously i was doing what all of all of our of you do. i was going to send them all. i was going into sports events that was going on holidays. but as i said, the line life stopped in 2008 because nobody understood why i refuse to do this

5, why i decided to stand for the truce. why don't long to some house shut up and be a be doing and be what everyone perceives as being a good person. somehow, i was the monster i was perceived as the black sheep. yes. and i'll just be here. you know, we just talked about, uh about uh, about 4 die with eyes. so and with the student as a child, but what could happen with a know people's mind and uh, what they do when people are re news care. mm hm. but this is exactly fit your family, your friends, your cleanings, the potential employers, even generalized. yeah, yeah. like but the water is that it's too violent. so people freeze, you know, and um, as you may know,

the milligram experience you understand that everyone comply with the rules if you know, and instruction is being given by authority, whoever they are, people just okay. they fall into the responsibility run, say he or she is responsible. i just the way i am now trying this and i don't why i'm not like this somehow. i'm really angry at myself is because i'm myself that i'm, you know, being to the side of society. so it's, it's extremely complicated because people knew, you know, we're talking about trust, i really trust in my company. i renewed trust in my managers. but i also trusted my friends and my family, unlike cummings and mine too long try and i trust it. everybody including the french society, is afterwards when i had to work with them. and somehow i understood that. i don't know if it's fate. i have no idea,

but somehow that the rude and was on was the one. no one wouldn't back up. i was too scary and many people have said that to me we understand that you a very courageous woman, but you know, you are very scared. mm hm. and i have never had this on my, on my shoulders before. so yes, it's, um, it's a blessing of life somehow. what happened to me when i was 40 years for 40 years old and yeah, it's terrible. stephanie, please stay with us. we are going to take a short break. we're speaking with u. b. s whistleblower. stephanie zebo about her revelations of wrong doing at the bank, including the ordered destruction of evidence of criminal activity. we're going to take that short break and come back to talk about the aftermath of her revelations and about her book. stay tuned. 2 2

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a more the was the most schools do. if you look on the visual do, while i pull up significantly, personal liability, almost getting used to put value, what do you do or to but you also as the was done, the newest go on the belief systems to good ludy. what i see these the buses, the little cute little dyson says this done, both of the, the,

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[000:00:00;00] the, the, the law should be to go the welcome back to the was the blurs. i'm john kerry onto we're speaking with u. b. s . was of lower stephanie's hugo. stephanie, thanks again for being with us. a thing to jones. there's a huge difference between being a banking whistleblower in the united states and being a banking whistleblower in france. in the united states. the whistleblower is eligible for a reward of between 26 and 34 percent of the amount of money that the government recovers. thanks to the whistle, blowers revelations,

in the case of your former colleague, bradley burke and failed. for example. that meant that he received a $104000000.00 reward. but not only did you get nothing, you were harassed. why is the situation so different in france? why do whistle blowers there? have so few protections who it's going to be a very long? yeah, it could be a very long answer, big cose. first of all, what we can say is that the lows and friends are extremely new. new in the us have, which are blowing in the constitution. in france, it's back to 2016. so only 7 years ago. so obviously they are no previous cases. i am the 1st one. this is and seen the, sorry i'm, i've been telling you for the 1st couple of minutes it's on seen and it's unknown.

so as we have a new legal or the frame, well, nobody is used to that the lawyers are not used to, it just is nothing used to it. politicians as you know, the talk. and instead of talking the talk, they should walk the walk, but no one does because it's very complicated because it needs courage and it needs the truce. we see it all we're, we're still leaving the. busy road where lies are much more accepted, send a truce. and i've been wondering the fact that i'm a woman in this man's environment because finance is last name everywhere you know was bankers and i was not and i was not a banker. and also because i've dealt with the ministry of finance, is where they are. many men maybe has something with that,

i have no idea because i'm french and i so i was a citizen of the so called country of human rights, right. which protects people which way comes and protects people persecuted in countries or you know, when there is a war when there are plenty to go around and scandals on political issues. i'm. i'm a french woman. i stood up against frame bench and i worked for more than a year with sworn offer. she was so the french government has low was because in france they have 2 separate closed as a load to protect with the doors. and there's a low we should work with this with the state on fraud. and so the figures are different than what the new announce for the us. i think it's by 15 person for the big pros, it's something like 15 percent, but then you'll be

a scandal. is the biggest fraud ever ever friends. that's right. it's the biggest one. i've never seen that. yeah. they have never seen that. and all of them, you know, streaming service i worked with never, never dealt with something is biggest as when that, that leads to my next ones who was in charge exact. why don't they one of the lower to be applying to me. mm hm. that leads to my next question, actually, i know that you are seeking legal redress against u. b. s. and that there are several parts of your lawsuit that are still pending. can you tell us about that lawsuit and about your work to have whistle blowers and friends recognized well, i used to have a pending case about the harassment i suffered at the bank, but also because somehow my life i stopped since as you know, the u. b. s, you know, in the media they were extra me, uh, angry and to me. so obviously this credit crediting me was very easy and you'll be

as being such a par for bank because the older will assist. people have accounts with you b as in, namely on to see use on the heads of multinational companies on the heads of the media. so as i was a communication person, uh oh, the series i send to, i've never received any answers to my career editors. so obviously the so called protection low whistle vars is super as true. i think the windows case and u b. s would be, we have to pay what they owe me, which means the past 11 years, plus everything regarding my retirement right game and regarding pay raise and rebuilding inflation and regarding bonuses and regarding $1.00 of our it's a huge mistake for me. but i think it's such a huge stake for you be asked to because you'd be s as this credit to me every

where, but i haven't stolen any documents. that's right. i have an internal wizard blowing case i went in. so everyone a to be is the president general manager, the head of ha h r i to, to the head of legal and compliance. i talked to everyone i could refer to an order of them had the same model. so it was means that there was tired, there was no banker that that was unable to understand what was going on. so somehow i, the dev or the played with me. however, as i helped the french government and because you b as has been fined, because you b as a manager is i've been fined as well. they've been sentenced and fine. so it means that i told the truths me. so if i told the truth, i guess that the judges will uh, trust me,

right. and that way when want my child versus to be asked, but once again, i am the 1st one. so when you are the 1st one, it's as if you with tip toeing on uh, on chattel, is it no, wait? oh yes, extremely difficult. oh yes, it's a new world in that respect, you're the one that the really, that's really creating the precedent for for what comes next. i wanted to say also that i'm glad that i had the chance to read your excellent book, which i whole heartedly recommend to our viewers. one of the really terrific things about it besides your very compelling story is the fact that wiki leaks co founder julian assange wrote the introduction. can you tell us about that? how you got to know julian, hassan, and uh, and how he came to write the introduction to your book. well, i was honored to meet julian within the embassy of a quarter of

a quarter and the london towards the 8th 8 years ago. and we spent 4 hours discussing many subjects, obviously the relation between whistle blowers and media and the trust one has a just as a, as, as a joyce with a whistle glory and as a whistle. glory to join us because it's, it should be a win win situation. and what we can do is somehow to keep people informed and how to protect people and how to protect with the lawyers and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. we have many, many, many subjects to discuss. and as you know, 2 years later, i think the embassy over quit or decided that the junior would be kept a science and his cell phone was disconnected and he could not communicate to the world anymore. so i had a friend, was able to send you and your name and under. and uh he agreed to

provide me with a text. and if you've read the book, i guess it read the children's text, which is extra me i to rate because it talks about the hypocrisy of the presentations about the lies, about the truth, about fear fights, about fighting for the truth. so the text junior has written is extremely important when you know what the situation is like in no days indeed, you know, has been detained for more than 4 years now or yeah. and as you know, we might be extradited to the us any time now. yes, so the meeting i saw was for me some how extraordinary because i'm french and i'm a woman and i have a special profile as a whistle blower because i was not

a whistle blower who came public because i gave information to the press. i had to enter a little alerts and somehow i became a public person because right some people have given my. busy name to the media. so we talked to june about on that and i think that we will have to unite and or all of us who, whoever we are on the pentodes because this case is the case of our western democracies. you know? yes, as i've said to many people, because i gave you interviews everywhere in the world is that only dictatorships, separate children, young children from the parents. yes. and who are we in europe? who are the breaks to have been able to separate julian from mississippi to children with that when babies, when or when,

when you children was taken to the last and we have to stand between this family because uh, it's not only do you know, so just in case, it's oliver's, it's not read out speech. yes. and the freedom of the price. and it's information that all of those of citizens are supposed to get on a daily basis, a free information, and obviously i'm sure it's information's. so we all have to stand for us, osha well, i want to thank you, stephanie, very much for being with us. it was a pleasure speaking with you. thank you, john. thank you very much for. busy your time, the truth telling can be very difficult, unnecessarily. so the support of truth takes integrity. people with integrity do what they say they're going to do. others make excuses. people with integrity do the right thing, even when they know that they will pay a personal price, but the foundation stones for integrity or honesty,

character and loyalty. i for 1 am grateful for people like stephanie's hugo. thanks for joining us for another episode of the whistle blowers i'm john kerry echo. we'll see you next time. 2 2 2 the, [000:00:00;00] the, in the 1870, the colonial expansion of the british empire in the nile valley in greece. the british decided to get complete control over sudan. however,

the deeply religious people of that country did not want to obey 4 laws. the unceremonious intervention of british officials led to people's discontent. it's spokesmen was the theologians. mohammed also thought the drug blamed himself the marty. the design. he began to gather an army against the invaders. by 1884, most of the sudanese cities were in the hands of the modern great britain decided to intervene directly. but the troops of ahmad gave the invaders at drubbing in $1885.00. the rebels, the capital car to the feet of britain was totaled only by the very end of the 19th century. after the death of ahmad, the british were able to regain their control of sudan. unable to defeat the living body, the british took revenge on the dead what his remains were drawn out of the mazda liam, and thrown away into the nile. maude's head was brought to england as

a trophy. however, the victory of the modest revolt became the 1st successful action of the peoples of africa against the colonial oppression. and remained at dark stain on the reputation of the british empire. the over 100 palestinians were reportedly killed in a single strike long as the body of west, the d tap at the idea, resumed his bombardment of gauze the off for a week long ceasefire and to this friday coming wallace, how the city and health industry stays the depths totally garza has to post 15200 people. the ideas also strikes the south of the in place. let's put you on a screen for the latest on the ground in its vicinity. what i'm uh, lots of hospice and husbands bumped 5 times. and haven't stopped brushing back and

forth. people of scott sitting in k of not knowing where to go and not knowing