what's for tony? quit case a story that we will cover in the polity of indian prime minister and run debt. no day has tramped in state elections in the country. i'm a very happy to welcome to the program of rashida. sit, create full indian external affairs ministry. secretary is joining us from new teddy. thank you very much for taking the time up this monday. and i want to ask you the 1st thing. i mean this is katie, a big win for the ruling b, j. p. especially in those full states, it's not an endorsement of moody's policies or something else. oh, so literally it's an adult spend all of the prominence, some of these policies under fix his credibility among the people. because, you know, is we've been, i beginning to understand that when he says something, promises something it really to be done. and the record of the last few years has shown that 2 things have changed on the ground of people's lives. have become

better. one of the factors that to the most people here seem to think as luck and mister movie and the visa piece river is the women support. because a lot of his programs like clean drinking water toilet gas connections have affected the budget, the lives of ordinary women. so that it has been a factor that has enhanced the beach of view. and mr. moore, these at craig ability. he's also got a lot of the tribal votes, so that isn't as far as mr movie is concerned, but then the other factors also, which of function due to the victory, which is mr. movies uh, the rest of, uh, an appeal. but uh, i think that you have to give credit to the bounty or veney. well, i electrode machine them into boxes, but he systematically uh, you know,

a lot of them look on the ground and wish the opposition was not able to match. i do want to ask you, i, i would imagine the apartments the mold is getting pretty confident uh coming in to the national elections. c do you think the opposition can re revise its for choose? oh well a subsidy. wisdom will do is very confident. are you spoke about it yesterday when the address the party was at the beach at the headquarters. but uh uh yes, i think it, it is indicated over trend, but i would not read too much into it because uh, last time uh, mr. moody is bought. you had the last, the state assembly elections but did very well in the um, national eviction show. uh, i'm not saying that uh, uh, this would be a reverse soon of the whole. i think the trend is with the beach epi. and it has to

be, if you make some really serious mistakes or unless the opposition of gets his act together and changes that strategy, the windows seems to be blowing in favor of the b j. b. that's far to average is the general feeling in india today. and today the indian stock market went up hugely because it's a sign of confidence. and i think that to, in general, uh, there is no other leader in india who can match mr. move. these appeals, not just the political opinions, but also his commitment to the development of india. i mean, he, himself is a very hard working man working 18 hours a day. he's not at all accused of any kind of corruption. he's in the affecting him only. he had his credibility overseas. he has done a lot to, to,

to change and joe's image globally. all these factors play in favor of mr. media and the vision of the, i think mr. mulch is the, the zip is the biggest card, but i would not underestimate the hard work and the dedication off of thousands, hundreds of thousands of ordinary be just the workers who are on the ground. well, so i think something will be keeping an eye on thanks so much for giving us your time and your input that was receive sick refill my indian external size minutes for sex. you. thank you. thank you. and that is it. uh for the ssl voice. it says, taking over the top uh, have a great day, the

hello and welcome to cross stock. were all things are considered on peter lavelle. the quintessential foreign policy genius or one of the greatest mass murderers in history. kissinger might have been bo, and much more is death was not untimely, but his legacy still hans, us, in many ways he initiated some of the worst aspects of american foreign policy. the to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george semi well in budapest, he is a pod cast or at the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals. in america, we have martin j e. as an award, winning journalist and commentator, or a gentleman cross up rules in effect, that means you can jump me anytime you want, and i always appreciate it. all right, george, let's start out with you. in budapest, um, as i said in my interaction, it wasn't untimely. he did make the to 100 years. i think the as last major trip

was last year to beijing, so he was, um, um, he had a vote, a very up of filled life to the very, very end. but he also has a legacy. it's an understatement to say it's mixed. um, but i would contend that it's not much different than a lot of other secretaries of state sense, but we'll get into that. go ahead. george as well is the no question. it's a m a mix legacy. however, i think if one thinks about kissinger's, he is in power as opposed to his sick of band take obsequious, he is out of power, but most of his life is really out of power. there. all the leading and a carrying favors. little, well, the 50 years, but during his, he is a power either those will years of diplomatic accomplishments. some of those we years of major arms control treaties signed is in which the united states

managed to extricate itself from the war in vietnam. and the look for a while as of the united states would not be able to ever accomplish that. um, but it was with the use of a, a healthy productive relationship with the soviet union, a game which seemed unlikely in the decades before, during the 19 fifties and early $96.00 is. and then of course it, you know, disappeared. you know, within a few years of the end of the mix, some kissinger. yes. so when you contrast that with the accomplishments of his successes, i think it specs up quite favorably. um, you know, it's hard to think of the last couple of decades. what diplomatic accomplishments the united states has a cheese? no, i mean i will come think of any major treaties of the united states, assign any major diplomatic initiatives that the come for

a i mean what the recent years of being characterized by the forever was, was that just go on and on forever and no one can actually even explain what they're about with a garage, syria, libby a, i've got a style and then you know, you can just go through the list. what are they about and know the president will separate? just a seems intense. i'm bringing any of them to an end. yeah. martin, it's, it's very interesting is that when you look at the obituaries and even before he died, obviously, i mean, they had 50 years stuck about his legacy as a while. i was in power, a mass murderer, a gross, a violator of international human rights laws, etc. etc, madeline albright, when asked about iraqi children, you know, she said it was something worth the, you know, but they accepted. i mean, but my point is, you can, you can say a lot of things about henry kissinger. but you know, a, he didn't take the job because he was a st. okay. he was a,

a very talented and geo political think there, now we can disagree with some of the things that you did, but to put him in mass murder category like that without and being standing alone. come on. go ahead, mark. yeah, i think i think joe was quite hold on them. i don't think he necessary it. did the growling so good. i mean, i can't think of any states from them since the end of the 2nd level. that still helps the importance on the credos, on the, on the under gravitas that he had. i'm used to visiting all sorts of a world leaders. you know, that in the last time it's in martin. he worked very hard at it. okay. i mean, it is what it, it was interesting things that he called debated the, the midst of about himself. no, but better than any one else. go ahead be okay. let me put it in different way. can you imagine i just need the income of to, isn't it ministration? is everybody in a tour in the world for decades later on? so that will lead to is, you know, quoting his opinion, you know, he was an extraordinary car to, he's hated because of the was because of

a number of the interventions, some which were carried out more directly hands on others web by america just stood by it and gave them the link michigan's yeah, yeah. like a strong useful bangladesh. you know? oh, he's team or you know, so we're living in different times and not only will see in the numerous cars so incredibly cars much. it was also an intellect, which was something that makes some pretty badly needs. it's oh, my free time. time out all the time out. i'm sorry you, you hit a red line and the door to the yard. well, now, one of the things, well, and i feel very adamant about this. so much of the focus on henry kissinger for the success is the george mentioned. it's given the kissinger never given to nixon, and that's on purpose, george. now in the question, i think peter,

you and i have discussed this many times before. it's um, it's a completely a dis, almost exercise that was practice during the next 10 years because much of the media and the tests nicks always had it. and when they saw all these uh, diplomatic accomplishments, they were not able to credit mix simple them so they have to cultivate the made. but it was kissinger, those brilean, german jewish professor who was have all these fantastic ideas. and in a mix of those, just simple wow, you know, do you, you go ahead and do what you want, henry, but it was simply, it wasn't true. and you can see from the, the transcripts of the conversation, we've all been publish it, which is next. and that who is the guiding force of a foreign policy? kissinger was a man who implements at the was a nixon who came up with the idea of the opening to china. it was nixon who actually saw it to bring the war to an end by trying to get the soviet union to

influence north vietnam. maybe these old nickelodeon policy objectives, but simply to media, then all the way up to now of never a given the next to the course or a. so either way, in the midst of kissinger is a kind of a, you know, the other side of the point was they could continue disparagement of the mix up was, i think one of the, one of the clever as the most fast, like the presidents, or maybe in us history. yeah. because martin almost all the histories of written out the nixon, arrow written by liberals. so what would you expect go ahead martin. all right, well i've done correct to the i n s. um i, i was believed that i'm guessing to was a, i'm in a normal state, charismatic current to my point i was trying to make before you cut me off. that was the little knowledge, apologies. i just haven't had to be speaking as joy. it's george pointed out,

it's just something that we have talked about so many times. so i apologize. gotta give back the floor to you. or i'm talking about characters. that was my point to character. so you know how, how many characters can you, can you think of it a lot us 506070 is, you know, the pounds thought of that gravitas, that kissinger hobby was able to quote gender as a world newton's until i part of it to you. but it will do so this i wasn't aware that it was nixon who was behind the very spot moves in the seventy's to, to bring china in from the cold and to, to sideline russia. but he, he also did a huge so there was one of these great leaders, great statesman, the boot. that was a great believer in the other. jenny folks never change their mind because in 2019 he advised trump to do exactly this. the same thing was to get close to russia to a met china. but i think um, i think the point is that we haven't had anybody like him, and that's why he's so hated and loved this way. so i polemic so controversial. i

don't think he's ever really going to ever get over the legacy the reputation of the carpet bombing for years in cambodia with weight estimates for vary between 80400000 tests. and also the, the input result of that which is to actually, you know, support the come arrows you can sort of, um, get some more support to them regionally. i think i think that was one of his greatest blunders possibly ever. and um, you know, i think that's, that's, that's, that's how he's, he's written his legacy. but, you know, moving towards forwarding to today. you know, um, i can't help feeling, but we really badly need somebody, highly articulate. i'm really raised to shop with an intellect in the white house. now as a result of some of these huge um, instructional problems that america and the west has brought upon itself, you know, ukraine and as well for example. and because of, you know, what i wonder if um, if, if, if somebody like kissinger, what about the edge would have had the, the,

the impact on this decision making to cut off what button come pull of? i think the contrast is in the old days and the days of kissinger where america was extremely bold. it was the soup about, it had to come out. you know, america was judge by very much what it did. in fact, it was today, you know, where we're living in a completely different without, in a, in a monkey by the world. way americans no longer the suit that we tend to judge america by what it doesn't do, but more. and that's what it says. and if the contrast is, you know, today we have an american president who can only cool for a cease fraud and gaza. and that's really only can do and you know, and hope to the rest of our listeners and, and he's, but of course that's not the case until. and george, it is. i think it's a remarkable leadership in the west right now is it's a, it's an outcome of an id ology. the reproduces itself, i mean, you know, and to me,

blinking is no accident and he is representative of the professional managerial class. but there are no nothings there, just accredited george? yes, i think so. um. there's also other aspect of it. i think that um, in the case of um the mix and kissinger. and that was a world in which the united states have to accommodate itself to a serious rival power. and that tends to focus american minds. yep. and they have to move towards um, making peace because they the, the, the possibility of the destruction and the american defeat was that it was something that was really comfortable. and we're going to what has happened since the human to pull a moment, just the victory of the be a business the united states. interpretation of the cold? well, we want, well the of the, the top dog. no one can arrive of us as a thing,

and i said you can do whatever it wants. and that's why so there's, there's no measure. there's no check on anything that the united states, as i said, it can just sent you the new policies of destruction, destruction because they may hate. this is a, is the scales. we're going to just dump everything on somebody else on does not have to pay for it. you know, we do libby. okay, well, we have with real good, happy. okay, well we go to mess the state, not our problem that the europeans deal with the war in, uh, syria. okay, no, no problem. let me like your, the only 20 years in afghanistan, not on the executive 20 years. i mean, people, we had talked about vietnam, but i mean, the united states was enough, goes down the long, and then it was a, in pain in vietnam, in mc, just come from the moment of john. lyndon johnson's escalation might be a $65.00. it's basically a d is and i've got as i was 20, is iraq unless it's just billing there. and then when was it doing? it's just basically preventing any other power emerging on the desktop,

or do i say i have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the legacy of henry kissinger. stay with our team . the welcome back. across stock were all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing the legacy of henry kissinger . the let's go back to martin america has already brought up the subject in, in the, the, what's going on right now is we speak of thinking about the legacy of henry kissinger. and let me the, the shuttle diplomacy that he conducted and a during the night after the 1970 the 73 war. it's very interesting. you have

people like blinking the want to repeat it. and henry kissinger pulled something up, blinking never will cause no one takes them seriously. doesn't take the, the administration seriously much the detriment or the reputation of the united states. but no one else go, can make the claim. and i think maybe it's open to debate, but it was under the kitchen just tenure, a secretary of state where the united states started. the tilt no longer is i'm kind of a mediator. but on the, on the, i'm became a, israel's international lawyer, and that is a trend, obviously that has continued much to the detriment of palestinians. and in dallas, of the westbank land, the reputation of the united states. and actually the security of israel. you of the, i think you can make the argument a lot of that, but then that the significant trend started under kissinger, a, it pre dates, kissinger and the relationship with israel, but the intensity of it. and it has remained to the present thoughts. i suppose,

i mean, the idea at that particular time in that particular juncture was that we need israel more vanessa. you know, israel needs to be our partner in the middle east. what was that was there in the cold that was during the cold war? yeah, essentially that mixed up with us pledge of this. what do you, what do we get out of the special relationship with as well? and he said is, well, we didn't know no, really that much. i mean, is it the reason why we have that relationship is, is re, largely because of a hold of course, which is an extraordinary thing to say. i wonder if, if um, if, if, because it was in the room when you said that, you know, but, but i think we were living at different times. and um, we, we, the, the, we don't have that america doesn't have that cloud. and even though the edge anymore to, to the leverage that it was hard when during cause and just as, and i made the point full of that, you know, in the, in the old days of kissinger, america foreign policy, did it actually impact it? and now we're living in a period of american following storm policy being very much something of a narrative and narrative which isn't really taking that seriously. and the,

you know, the consequences is the way a very confused about what our role is now in the west and what we should be doing around the world. interestingly, you talked about, i've got a son country, very close to my heart. you know, when america pulled out, i think a general as ask isn't just about what went wrong. and he said, look, the simply this, you know, we, we had no real clear idea. but what we're trying to achieve in this kind of stuff, you know, and i think um, but the, that, that was quite to a person and, and poignant moment. you know, for a lot of people to, to, to, to, to heat the point that probably the west shouldn't be meddling in things. it doesn't understand him. do we really understand the complexities of the middle east on what the israelis are trying to do and is rep? probably not. you know, but a and a is argument actually was interesting because by contrast the america didn't have a very clear policy that it is policy very, very obviously it was to make sure that no one country in the region ever followed suit and became an exec on to like what vietnam was trying to do to, to be on know,

telling us that was the most common estate. it was just opposed to me. you know that there was a paranoia by kissinger nixon and others are that times that, you know, the countries has done up to us and just say, we don't need to trade. we don't need you a need to audiology just leave us alone. that was enough to spot extrude her a reaction of paranoid, which really led to them of it and i'm more it was all about, you know, stumping out this one example is one country that stood up to have it, but it was also within the context of the rivalry with the soviet union and, and, and the address of it was one of the main drivers. george, um, you know, again, you know, you, you can take the henry kissinger stamp on the middle least i think it gets indelible. and, you know, i, you know, i don't know what he said in the last years of his life, about american foreign policy, visa be israel, but just the, it was martin is mentioned. i mean, what does the us get out of it?

because in many ways, i mean if you have any kids in your road, many books, he wrote a book called diplomacy, which i'm a very sharp critic of, of, of guessing germany ways. but it's an absolutely brilliant book. it's a premier for geo politics. and but you know, he wasn't always a geo political thinker as he was a neo con, that we would say probably today. thoughts on that? i think so. yeah. i think if, if one thinks about the um, the middle east, um and you know, that was clearly a rivalry within the uh, the mix of ministration between the, the state department led by uh, william rogers and then and henry kissinger and the state department still maintains the um, what more traditional at that time us approach to the middle is which was even handedness. um the arabs, uh, friends. it was, i mean the united states have been involved in the arab world since. and i think

said when to damascus, for goodness, say exactly, mix on went to damascus, and i guess it just didn't really have, that'd be a good guess. since it was much more pro is right. and you're absolutely right. i mean, you did begin to see that the, the role of the united states, us to act as a, kind of a, a diplomatic, a representative of the united states. but that was the, the pressure of the soviet union. there was a fear within the next administration that if this goes on, this conflict goes on, then the soviet union will get a beach in the, in the middle, the use, the arrows are going to turn to, to the soviet union. the say, hey, you know, we, we need your help, you know, with the arrow. so we're going to deal with this problem is, right? so there was a pressure on washington to bring these conflicts to an end. and that's why there's, this pressure is now gone. i mean, the motors just don't care and i think this is really the problem with these forever was because there it is just don't care. there isn't a sufficient pressure on,

i'm only united states to do anything to bring these conflicts done in. so if you imagine what's going on now, israel and gaza, you know, the buys and people say, well, you really have to be careful about the civilian casualties. we, i just, just, you know, when we're not happy, we do killing so many children and that's it. but nothing else. the only one i, i think you've had this been the in taking place in the next, i guess engineer or are they able to do much better? there was much tougher pressure on this. uh, this ronald reagan kind of, um, uh, called the begging and said knock it off. it was there and then left it on. knock it off. exact happened. exactly. advise me to do it by the absolutely do it any, those are the, the, this has been the glue case. was it the reason presidents, you know, they could easily bring it over here easily pressure as well, to uh, to come to a conference stable and work something out smelling insoluble problem. but they've been reluctant to do it. you know, martin, it's, it's really interesting when we think about kissinger's relationship with,

with it israel and us relationship with israel. he was no zionist though. okay. and i think it's, it's, they help the couch it in terms of what, what george just said. i mean, he thought about it as a g of political again, but, and, and the problem to solve these would be the cold war. he put all those pieces together . that's what made him quite brilliant in his own way. but ever since then, you know, we, we had that we have that history of from 1973 to the present with israel. but it's much more in a couch than design just a terminology in paradigm because it certainly wasn't the, it wasn't particularly sympathetic to jews and the soviet union, a body put together a number of piece plans for the israelis and the palestinians. so we shouldn't forget that, but again, i come up some other point different times, very, very different times. you know, when you look at what you get, scandal, the nice and cushioned just paranoia of one and individual journalist public

opinion, then i think it's probably even more important than it is now. i mean, it was certainly a different attitude towards press international media both next and kissinger took the press very, very seriously. and i wonder if that would be the same case if nixon was in a position today, no blix. i guess i'm just, i do think you wrote it. one of his books are part of which one, but he's, i'm paraphrasing, he said, the foreign policy is very much something about how you have to have the power behind the policies. i think he was basically saying the online fist and the on gloves is really what dr. american foreign policy to. so it's not the case today now, you know, and i need the contrast of that is the role of acetic statement that i'm a made in 2015, you know, pushing away from the red lines, threat to syria and against us. do you know where, you know, we have this thing which probably kissinger finds out to repulsive cold soft policy, you know, which is a sort of you for this and for we no longer in pal, you know,

we're not going to show us. so different, very, very different days for kissing joe. but just pick up george's point, i think probably kissinger nick, some would have been more sensitive said sensible. i'm thinking of the french was story, since people are sensitive to a, the outcry from people via the press. then there's today's administration, i mean, i know, and i think it would have acted on it. so i think under kissinger we may well, lot of cease for coming to seats for enforced. and that's the key will influence every se, every time we had something like this, an american president would demand a ceasefire. that this is not happened now. rapidly run out of time judgement. we, um, we have to give kissinger credit for, for his out of office years, he had the kissinger associates became a very wealthy man. he remained very relevant and germane in international politics . tony blair is imitated him, everybody else. h. kissinger created a paradigm. and every one of many, many people fall into this footsteps. george?

absolutely. it is a power that i mean he did at the moment he's using office ended. he moved to new york, set himself up in a lavish um apartment and began cultivating very well. the people, they also cultivated a couple sources, socialites, you know, the, the, the dinner party is that, and this became the, you know, only a very important ingredients on his life. and he flies to the flap of all kinds of lead is you know, wherever it is, you know, he was, he was all he liked to be flattered to any loved to be for the 2. and that's why he continued to get invitations. you know, the people that listen to all his great great states. well, i mean that's where he put his bandages into and i think he abused it because i think he could of use these. he is much more productively. he could have been a good advice of 2 presidents as a, in the instead, he wanted to go on being invited to the wi fi right now. i get the question, i have a question to both of you right before we end here. but at the end of the day,

george, for as he was the he wanted to be, he wanted to represent the quintessential consensus. yes or no? absolutely that's. that's what we was martin. here's the thing. so i'll give you jose. well, jesus, that ended really quick cut twenties to go to a good shepherd, studies that can cause the thing that goes through his personality. he never, never wanted to be outside of the main street of a conventional opinion. a. okay, gentleman, that's all the time we have a want to think on george and martin. i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time. remember cross stuck rules the the.