and he is out, gentleman charles with all of souls hazardous so that the cut renew in columbus. something like that. countries must still using coal well ironed and that. so guess i'm good in house button. the button again. so in that we want to see an acceleration worldwide in dealing with climate change. the energy transitions must be made into a global success story. this energy transition include st. good bye to fossil fuels . we must now all demonstrate a firm determination to phase out fossil fuels. first and foremost, coal i'm give you. i love you to see a gentleman, food using coal fired power falls to produce electricity in order to overcome severe energy shows that is the government highest homeless that come up with proposals on how to offset that includes carver to foot from the facilities. looking for someone to blame for the country, the energy programs jobs. so the shouts pointed, the finger at the west usual scape goat russia. the fact that because of russia's

brutal attack on ukraine, we now have to temporarily use some power plants that we had already taken out of operation is bitter, but it is only for a short period of time. we have i n j i. if executive headland, though the applicant energy chain, but he's currently into but whether you and climate summit is taking place that he expressed doubts about, wealthy nations fulfilling the commitments when they tried to deflect blame upon others. when you look up a cock, 20 way just passed costs on the past. prophecies by wealthy western nations has be broken, promises broken pledges. i never ever kept talking to a true meeting on the on were let's just try me. the delegation weighs $100000000000.00 a every year that the promise, your poor nation something where we are the we have $600.00 with those people down electricity, $900000000.00 wind up. do you compete technologies on did telling us about bad,

on natural gas to bad done an oil was yeah, taking sought after it goes naturally and how i can do to provide them. so i seem to want to be stop giving lectures, the office to go to the table on the table on find the truck, maddie come on santa solutions, road way scapes. trying to play what that people advocate. you still have 2.73 percent greenhouse gas emissions. that is nothing called base. what the, what the countries are. so these where, what the big countries they need to dig, compromise, why african nations industrialized. we are 1100000000 people, the use 300000000 people. you can tell us and use the age 12 band on average sources when you're going to be met your own goals. and then you try to ship the item from 2 of those costs. the next so it was about present as latency and will be back and then some of the out the

the hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered on peter lavelle. the quintessential foreign policy genius or one of the greatest mass murderers in history, kissinger might have been both and much more. this death was not untimely, but is legacy still hans, us, in many ways he initiated some of the worst aspects of american foreign policy. the

to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george w l e in budapest is a pod cast or at the goggle, which can be found on youtube and locals and, and their cash. we have martin j e as an award winning journalist and commentator or a gentleman cross up rules and effect, that means you can jump me anytime you want. and i always appreciated. all right, george, that started out with you. in budapest, as i said in my interaction, it wasn't untimely. he did make it to 100 years. i think it is last major trip was last year to beijing, so he was, he had a vote, a very of filled life to the very, very end. but he also has a legacy, it's an understatement to say it's mixed, but i would contend that it's not much different than a lot of other secretaries of state sense, but we'll get into that. go ahead. george as well is the no question. it's a m, a mix legacy. however, i think if one thinks about kissinger's,

he is in power as opposed to his stick of band take up sequins as he is out of power. but most of his life is really out of power. draw, bullying and carrying favors. little. well, the 50 is, but during his he is in power. either those will years of diplomatic accomplishments. some of those we years of major arms control treaties signed is in which the united states managed to extricate itself from the war in vietnam. and the look for a while, as of the united states would not be able to ever accomplish that. um, but it was with the use of a, a healthy productive relationship with the soviet union, a game which seemed unlikely in the decades before, during the 19 fifties and early $96.00 is. and then of course it, you know,

disappeared. you know, within a few years of the end of the mix, some kissinger years. so when you contrast that with the accomplishments of his successes, i think it specs up quite favorably. um, you know, it's hard to think of the last couple of decades. what diplomatic accomplishments the united states has a cheese? no, i mean i know counseling of any major treat is that the united states assign any major um diplomatic initiatives that the come for a i mean what the recent years of being characterized by the forever was, was that just go on and on forever and no one can actually even explain what they're about with the rock syria, libya i've got a style, and then you know, you can just go through the list. what are they about and know the president will separate? just a seems intense on bringing any of them to an end. martin, it's,

it's very interesting is that when you look at the obituaries and even before he died, obviously, i mean, they had 50 years stuck about his legacy as a while. i was in power a mass murderer, a gross, a violator of international human rights laws, etc. etc, madeline albright, when asked about iraqi children, you know, she said it was something worse, but you know, but they accepted. i mean, but my point is, you can, you can say a lot of things about henry kissinger. but, you know, a, he didn't take the job because he was a st. okay. he was a, a very talented and geo political thinker. now we can disagree with some of the things that he did, but to put him in mass murder category like that without and being standing alone. come on. go ahead, mark. yeah, i think might joe's quick hold on that. my don't think he necessary did the googling so could i mean i can't think of any states from them is since the end of the 2nd level that still held the importance on the credos on the, on the,

on the gravitas that he had. i'm used to visiting all sorts of a world leaders, you know, in the last time it's in martin. he worked very hard at it. okay. i mean, it is what it, it was interesting things that he called debated the, the midst of about himself. no, but better than any one else. go ahead be okay. let me put it in different way. can you imagine i just need the income of to isn't it ministration is over in a tour in the world for decades later on. so that will lead to is, you know, quoting his opinion, you know, he was extraordinary carter, and he's hated because of the was because of a number of the interventions, some which were carried out more directly. hands on others web by america just stood by and gave them the link. michigan's yeah. yeah. like a strong use for bangladesh. you know? oh, he's team or you know, so we were living in different times and not only will see an enormous car so

incredibly car was about to it was also an intellect which was something that makes some pretty badly needs. it's oh, my free time. time out all the time out. i'm sorry you, you hit a red line and the door to the doorbell. now, one of the things, and i feel very adamant about this. so much of the focus on henry kissinger for the success is the george mentioned. it's given the kissinger never given to nixon, and that's on purpose. george. now, in the question, i think peter, you and i have discussed this many times before. it's um, it's a completely a dis, almost exercise that was practice during the next 10 years because much of the media and the tests nicks always had it. and when they saw all these uh diplomatic accomplishments, they were not able to credit mix simple them. so they had to cultivate the made,

but it was kissinger, those brilean, german jewish professor who was have all these fantastic ideas. and in a mix of those, just simple wow, you know, do you, you go ahead and do what you want henrich, but it was simply, it wasn't true. and you can see from the, the transcripts of the conversation, we've all been publish it, which is next. and that who is the guiding force of the foreign policy? kissinger was a man who implements that. there was a mix of who came up with the idea of the opening to china. it was nixon who actually saw it to bring the war to an end by trying to get the soviet union to influence north vietnam. maybe these will nickelodeon policy objectives, but simply to media, then all the way up to now of never a given the next to the quarter. so either way, in the midst of kissinger is a kind of a, you know, the other side of the point was they could continue disparagement of, uh, a mix up was i think, one of the, one of the clever as the most fast,

like the president's. but maybe in us history. yeah. because martin, almost all the histories of written out the nixon, arrow written by liberals. so what would you expect? go ahead martin. all right, well i, i still incorrect to j. i n s. um i, i was believed that some kissinger was a i'm in a normal state, curtis market kinda to my point, i was trying to make that for you. company all set the was the little knowledge, apologies. i just happened to me speaking as joy, as george pointed out, it's just something that we have talked about so many times. so i apologize. gotta give back the floor to you or i'm talking about kind of just that was my point of character. so you know how, how many characters can you, can you think of it a lot is 506070. is he the past thought of that gravitas, that kissinger hobby was able to quote generous and well, newton's untold. so perfect to you, but it will do so this i wasn't aware that it was nixon who was behind the very

spot moves in the seventy's to, to bring china in from the cold and to, to side live russia. but he, he also did a huge so he was one of these great leaders, great statesman, the boot. that was a great believer in the other. jenny folks never change their mind because in 2019, you advise trump to do exactly. that is the same thing. to us, to get close to russia to a met china. but i think um, i think the point is that we haven't had anybody like him, and that's why he's so hated and loved this way. so, polemic so controversial. i don't think he's ever really gonna ever get over the legacy. the reputation of the carpet bombing for he isn't combo do with late estimates for vary between 80400000 tests. and also the, the input, the result of that, which is to actually, you know, simple. it's a, can i originally from sort of, i guess most supporters and regionally, i think, i think that was one of his greatest blunders possibly ever. and um, you know, i think that's, that's, that's, that's how he's, he's written his legacy. but,

you know, moving towards forwarding to today, you know, um, i can't help feeling that we really badly need somebody, highly articulate and really raised the shop with an intellect in the white house. now, as a result of some of these huge um, instructional problems that america and the west has brought upon itself. you know, you claim as well, for example. and because of, you know, what i wonder if um, if, if, if somebody like kissinger, what about the edge would have had the, the, the impact on this decision making to cut off what button come pronounced. i think the contrast is in the old days and the days of kissinger where america was extremely bowed. it was the soup about, it had the cloud. you know, america was judge by very much what it did. in fact, it was today, you know, where we're living in a completely different without, in a, in a monkey by the world. way americans no longer the suit that we tend to judge america by what it doesn't do. if i'm mobile,

that's what it says. and if the contrast is, you know, today we have an american president who can only cool for seats for our garza. and that's really only can do and you know, and hope to the rest of our listeners and, and he's, but of course that's not the case. until and george, it is, i think it's a remarkable leadership in the west right now is it's a, it's an outcome of an id. ology that we produce is itself, i mean, you know, and to me blinking is no accident and he is representative of the professional managerial class. there are no nothings there, just accredited george. yes, i think so. um. there's also other aspect of it. i think that, um, in the case of um, the mix and kissinger was a world in which the united states have to accommodate itself to a serious rival power. and that tends to focus american mines. yep. and they have

to move towards um, making peace because they the, the, the possibility of the disruption and american defeat was it was something that was really comfortable if we get a, what has happened since the human to pull a moment just the victory of the uh, the uh, the leasing united states interpretation of the cold. well, we want, well, the, uh, the, the top dog. no one can arrive of us as a think, and i said you can do whatever it wants. and that's why so there's, there's no measure. there's no check on anything with the united states. as i said, it can centrally pursue policies of destruction, destruction because them hate. this is a, is k of we're going to just dump everything on somebody else on does not have to pay for it. you know, we do libya. okay, well we have with real good off age. okay. well we go to mess with they not our problem that the europeans deal with the war in uh, syria. okay, no,

no problem. let me like your, of the money 20 years in afghanistan. not the exact, it's when he is, i mean, people are we talk about vietnam, but i mean, the united states was enough, goes down the longer then he was a, in pain in vietnam, in mc discounts. on the moment of john lyndon johnson's escalation might be a 65, it's basically a is, and i've got, as i was 20, is a rock, it honestly just building era. and then when was it doing? it's just basically preventing any other power emerging on the desktop, or do i say i have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the legacy of henry kissinger. stay with archie. the show room just don't need

to shape out the application and engagement it closely. trails. when so many find themselves will support we choose to look for common ground the the welcome act across stuff were all things are considered. i'm peter le bell. this is the home addition to remind you, we're discussing the legacy of henry kissinger. the let's go back to martin america. you already brought up the subject in, in the, the, what's going on right now is we speak of thinking about the legacy of henry kissinger . and let me the, the shuttle diplomacy that he conducted a, a, during the night after the 1970 the 73 war. it's very interesting. you have people

like blinking the want to repeat it. and henry kissinger pulled something up, blinking never will cause no one takes them seriously. doesn't take the administration seriously much to the detriment to the reputation of the united states, but no one else go can make the claim. and i think maybe it's open debate, but it was under the kitchen just tenure, a secretary of state where the united states started, the tilt no longer is some kind of a mediator. but on the, on the became a israel's international lawyer. and that is a trend, obviously that has continued much to the detriment of palestinians. and in dallas, of the westbank man, the reputation of the united states. and actually the security of israel. you're a, i think you can make the argument a lot of that. but then that the significant trend started under kissinger, a, it pre dates, kissinger and the relationship with israel,

but the intensity of it and it has remained to the present thoughts. so i suppose, i mean, the idea at that particular time in that particular juncture was that we need israel more vanessa. you know, israel needs to be taught in the, in the middle east. what is that was there in the cold that was during the cold war? yeah, essentially that mixed up with us pledge of this. what do you, what do we get of this special relationship with as well? and he said, is what would in and not, not read that much. i mean, is that the reason why we have that relationship is, is wrote largely because of a hold of clause, which is an extraordinary thing to say. i wonder if, if um, if, if, because it was in the room when you said that, you know, but, but i think we were living at different times and we, we, the, the, we don't have that the america doesn't have that cloud. and even though the edge anymore to, to the leverage that it was hard when during kids. and just as, and i made the point before that, you know, in the, in the old days of kissinger, america foreign policy, did it actually impact it? and now we're living in a period of american for long term policy,

big very much something called a narrative and narrative, which isn't really taking that seriously. and the, you know, the consequences is the, we are confused about what our role is now in the west and what we should be doing around the world. interestingly, you talked about, i've got some country very close to my heart. you know, when america pulled out, i think a general just ask, isn't just about what went wrong and you said look to simply this, you know, we, we had no real clear idea. but what we're trying to achieve enough kind of stuff, you know? and i think um, but the that that was quite to a person and, and poignant moment. you know, for a lot of people to, to, to, to, to heat the point that probably the west shouldn't be meddling in things. it doesn't understand. and do we really understand the complexities of the middle east on what the israelis are trying to do and is rep? probably not. you know, but a and a is argument actually was interesting because by contrast the america did have a very clear policy. it is policy very, very obviously it was to make sure that no one country in the region ever followed

suit and became an example like kind of what the name was trying to do to, to be an autonomous. that was the most common estate. it was just autonomy, you know that there was a paranoia by kissinger. nixon and others are that times that, you know, the countries has done up to us and just say, we don't need to trade. we don't need a new idea. energy just leave us alone. that was enough to spot extraordinary reaction of paranoid which really led to them of it and i'm more it was all about, you know, stumping out this one example is one country that stood up to have it. but it was also within the context of the rivalry with the soviet union and, and, and the address of it was one of the main drivers, george, um, you know, again, you know, you, you can take me henry kissinger stamp on the middle least. i think it gets indelible and you know, i, you know, i don't know what he said in the last years of his life about american foreign policy, visa be israel. but just that it was martin is mentioned, i mean,

what does the us get out of it? because in many ways, i mean you, henry kissinger, wrote many books. he wrote a book called diplomacy, which i'm a very sharp critic of case in germany ways. but it's an absolutely brilliant book . it's a premier for geo politics. and but you know, he wasn't always a geo political thinker as he was a neo con, that we would say probably today. thoughts on that? i think so. yeah. i think if, if one thinks about the um, the middle east and you know, there was clearly a rivalry within the, the mix of administration between the, the state department led by william rogers and then, and henry kissinger and the state department still maintains the what more traditional at that time, us approach to them at least, which was even handedness. the arabs of friends, it was,

i mean the united states have been involved in the arab well, since and i think said when to damascus, for goodness, say exactly mix and went to damascus. and i guess it just didn't really have that be a good doesn't it was much more pro his right. and you're absolutely right. i mean, he did begin to see that the, the role of the united states, us to act as a, kind of a, a diplomatic, a representative of the united states. but that was the, the pressure of the soviet union. that was the fear within the next administration, that if this goes on, if this conflict goes on, then the soviet union will get a beach in the, in the middle, the use, the arrows are going to turn to the soviet union. the say, hey, you know, we, we need your help, you know, with the arrow. so we're going to deal with this problem of this, right? so there was a pressure on washington to bring these conflicts to an end. and that's why there's, this pressure is now gone, i mean, the motor just don't care. and i think this is really the problem with these before ramble was because there it is. just don't care. there isn't

a sufficient pressure on, i'm only united states to do anything to bring these conflicts to it in. so if you imagine what's going on now, israel and gaza, you know, the, by some people say, well, you really have to be careful about the civilian casualties. we, i just this, you know, when we're not happy, but you'll killing so many children and that's it, but nothing else. the more, i think you've had this been the in taken place in the next 9 kissinger here, so i know what to do much better. there was much tougher pressure on this uh, this ronald reagan kind of, um, uh, called the bacon and said knock it off in a certain limit on get a knock it off. exact happened. exactly. advise you to do it by the absolutely do it any, those are the, this has been the glue case, was the reason of presidents, you know, they could easily bring it over here. easily pressure as well to uh, to come to a conference stable and work something out smell an insoluble problem, but they've been reluctant to do it. you know, martin it's,

it's really interesting when we think about the kissinger's relationship with, with it is real and us relationship with israel. he was no scientist though. okay. and i think it's, it's, they have to couch it in terms of what, what george just said. i mean, he thought about it as a g, a political again, but, and the problem to solve these, it'd be the cold war. he put all those pieces together. that's what made him quite brilliant in his own way. but ever since then, you know, we, we had that we have that history of from 1973 to the present with israel. but it's much more in a couch than design just um terminology and paradigm because im just certainly wasn't the the wasn't particularly sympathetic to jews and the soviet union. a body put together a number of piece plans for the israelis and palestinians. so we shouldn't forget that, but again, i come up some of the point, different times, very, very different times. you know,

when you look at what you get scandals are nice and cushioned just paranoia, of one individual journalist public opinion. then i think it's probably even more important than it is now. i mean, it was certainly a different attitude towards press international media, both nick, some i'm guessing to took the press very, very seriously. and i wonder if that would be the same case if nixon was in position today. no blix kissinger's idea. i think you wrote it, one of his books are part of which one, but he's, i'm paraphrasing you said that your foreign policy is very much something about how you have to have the power behind the policies. and i think he was basically saying the online fist and the on gloves is really what dr. american foreign policy to. so it's not the case today. no, you know, and i need the contrast to that is the role of acetic statement that i'm a made in 2015, you know, backing away from the red lines, threat to syria and against us. do you know where, you know, we have this thing which probably kissinger finds out to repose zipcode. soft

policy, you know, which is a sort of euphemism for we no longer in pal. no, no, no, according to show us. so different, very, very different days for kissing joe. but just pick up joe, just point, i think probably, kissinger nick, some would have been more sensitive said sensible. i'm thinking of the french with story since people are sensitive to the outcry from people via the press, then this, today's administration, i mean and, and i think they would have acted on it. so i think under kissinger we may well, lot of cease for commented seats for enforced, and that's the key will inform me of it, every se, every time we had something like this, an american president would demand a ceasefire that this is not happened now. rapidly run out of time, george, but we, um, we have to give kissinger credit for to bear his out of office years. he had the kissinger associates became a very wealthy man. he remained very relevant and germane international politics. tony blair is imitated him. everybody else h kissinger created

a paradigm. and every one of many, many people fall into this footsteps. george? absolutely. it is a power that i mean he did at the moment he's using office ended. he moved to new york, set himself up in a lavish um apartment and began cultivating very well the people, the also cultivate advocate, most also socialized. see the, the, the didn't about the said. and this became the, you know, only a very important ingredients of his life. and he flatted the flap of all kinds of lead is you know, whatever it is, you know, he was, he was all he liked to be flattered to any loved to be for the 2. and that's why he continued to get invitations. you know, the people that listen to all is great, great statesmen. i mean that's what he put his energies into. and i think he abused it because i think he could have used these. he is much more productively. he could have been a good advice of 2 presidents as a, in the instead, he wanted to go on being invited to the wi fi right now. i have a question. i have

a question to both of you right before we end here. but at the end of the day, george, for as he was sick, he wanted to be he wanted to represent the quintessential consensus. yes or no? absolutely. that's. that's what we was martin. yes, i think so. i'm thinking just well jesus, that ended really quick cut twenty's, the good shepherd study that i can probably cuz that's what i think that goes to his personality. he never, never wanted to be outside of the main street of a conventional opinion. and okay, gentleman, that's all the time we have one to think on george and martin, and one of the like our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time. remember, cross stuck rules. the,

[000:00:00;00] the and civilian thought, not stop for the last hour onto know, coming from all over the fun unit, southern gaza, navy, the city of han unit is the bottom line as well as the idea is to and these, the things function on by the area as it did in an initial invasion that no fully as we felt strongly and solely in northern garza. we're also doing so now in the southern parts, it will be no less friends in that area. thought out to the comes to bypass the road will be open, the rest of it is to head south the previous car, the hudson in food a was