was in pre being presented as a legitimate genuine popular revolution. and the whole thing has been scripted, again, by american activist funded and organized for the national endowment for democracy, of its branches and various and yellows. and this is, this recipe was used in belgrade in 2000 in georgia, 23112004 again and 20132014. which escalated to my dun and many other places, including throughout the middle east and terrible the 21. and as people have gotten wiser to it, it's gotten less and less effective, but that hasn't stopped people to try it again. and again. while that is good bye from the studio here in moscow, this how we all had to go with should were tons tape on subbing underground. he told that should he went in the coming 2nd called home with professor richard and the sidewalk. enjoy the

afternoon or time, so you're welcome back to going underground, broadcasting all around the world from the u. a. it's the door, one of the multiple, the aramark by decline of us empire, imaged slaughter in ukraine and gaza. and there's more nations, along with russia and china and opposition to the us dictated so called rules based on what should we expect? joining me from kind to bring the u. k, again is professor richard software tends universities emeritus professor of russian and european politics, who was just published in the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war. a thank you so much because the sacrifices are coming back on. i'm not going to talk so much about what the west is, what a cold war is. i actually maybe i should stop by saying, can you forgive? some read is reading your book who see you shot the chains from john to system the

rules based or washington rules based thinking. washington must be neutralize, military attacked at all costs given how we have got here. that would be, i understand about your action because quite clearly fee taxi i code of the well di nowadays called the political west since 1999 has not been spectacular except in terms of failure. given the fact that at the beginning 1990, it looked as if there would be a better way of working under the soviet union in the united states and of the powers joined together to reverse saddam hussein's attack on quite but terms and of kosa in the as in the bulk and conflicts, the bombing of serbia, 1999. and so many other incidents, it's quite clear that the west used its enormous preponderance of power in an area sponsible minor. you quote from so many different sources that today we associated

with the new phone rights, new liberal, right? i don't know what time to use who we used surprises one, cuz today they'll say, go for all out, what would china go for war? because the russia, but even they were wanting that the expansion of nato would the, in the end reduce us power perhaps. or yeah, it's important to remember that that's a really nice door to a political west. call it what you like deliberately international load, or even it's certainly far from homogenous. and it's very important to understand that that is debate even within the system. and of course, a generation of publication. so if the old school only way from has moving target, i know nearby, and of course george can wound against may turn lodgement was an even has been efficiency, said nathan lodge, but we've got an over arching time. you're paying security to older would lead to disaster. now of course, all these warnings have been forgotten. unfortunately, it's had warning, so actually come to take place. so of course,

the west is doubling down on his positions. fairly many in the global sideboard more and the depth of the big. they have brzezinski older, the grand chessboard you quote to me in the book. i mean, saying european states no more than really vassal states with no silver in general practical terms. you suggest him saying, i mean is that true? now when we look at west in yorba, we turn to west in your for a 2nd away from the great palace they are, we just see that decline is going to be your, your there in britain actually speaking to me. yes, i call them sadly. legacy if a powers and unfortunately the political activity and you know what would say in political science, the agency has been undermined because quite clearly there's political west and us . the line system has disempowered, germany, france. and so it's a serious powers on the continent. we've been just to look just before the conflict

and you create an early 2022. we had all our shots and i knew them a call both going to moscow and in my view correctly that we are bleed trying to avoid the will. and yet, but they could do nothing, could split decisions, want to tighten in progress, but they know that they've taken elsewhere, obviously in washington and doing the nature had quoted is so they just to play side testimony, despite endless total cost to, to jekyll autonomy, worse than that the european union itself, instead of coming forward with peace proposals, has been the greatest cheerleader for conflict, which is a, you know, something completely repudiating. basically, all you're doing says a piece project. you say one could make the case the britain way your speaking to be from is just an aircraft carrier for the united states, with all its u. s. military bases. mosque ratings, already f ones and all the military troops. but you know that if the present macro could and we invite him appear on this program with us right now, he'd say,

what are you talking about? and you mentioned them kicking out the base is the friendship in the what was it the 40s or fifties at us basis? and you know, you see the all the, and to us vote to the united nations the, i'm building this to go in with the iraq invasion. and so yes indeed, it was the girl who um, to the base is out to the 1960s. and they took the different ones out from the political, the military of united military come on. but of course, it was a side cause a who in the late 20 tends to crowns back in and across, pursued that, you know, vigorously, atlanta says policy. and so the key point to is that contrasting to this atlanta says, and which leads to does empowerment to western europe. we know we've been a lot of us have been putting forward. the goal is to ideas. the idea is that, you know, tang, continental unity. this is an idea of the goal. it was an idea of global joseph

coast, which when a lone star perestroika there coming to europe and home. and it was not difficult for me to and, and this to, you know, individually a type of goal is and which says, you know, you should take control of its own destiny. and we're talking about your own away from lisbon to reverse talk. and that's the only way in which we can begin to frame some sort of new piece and security older. i suppose you are being 1000 and say, oh, but we all, we just happen to be in support of the us war and rush or through ukraine. it's actually a european war that europe is involved in, i mean, the restaurant was the claims but to intervene after it was clear, the nature of back genocide was occurring in, in going bags or on the cards of to so many people are dead being killed after the made and cool. why is it then that other regions haven't changed as much? the arrow boiled se would gaza? why do other regions don't go to war? the way russia goes towards the project?

what it sees is it's speakers or a community? yeah, i mean, what do you use the word genocide, i think that is used on those sides perhaps to, to flip unclear too likely because genocide is obviously uh, you know, catastrophic attempt to eliminate people in the game. and i was in the army here in the middle east and his id is being used by important uh, uh, normal line groups is a wide variety of an ethnic population in gaza. obviously we're certainly seeing a tech has to offer attack against the whole people. absolutely. and of course on under different sorts of scale, we had that and not just a new thing. we've seen it to the 5 year to incorporate national communities in latvia and the stone you in the middle east. of course, we've come to the culmination of what is being 70, which is if not far longer, for failure to establish

a framework for different when it has to live together. and when you say, i'm an investor tax. yes, and not to justify or condemn it. it's clearly it was a failure of the year to pay and security older to find a comfortable place for gosh, i'm brother. gosh, i know those in the post cold war framework, which led to a, an intensifying security dynamic which led to the conflict which in which we now i'm going, i mean, i don't know how much cold of the, i mean the question there actually was, why is it the are well doesn't react the way russia act all we expect china to act when the south china sea becomes the subject of more intervention by nature forces as well. the, i mean there is no leading power. china. yes, of course, a new claim powers in the middle east where they have a series of contending contending power as well. it is astonishing because is the way that recent events. i really totally changed a, again, political framework. we've seen already china intervening to achieve some sort of

re i push along between gone unsolved yoga. we're seeing all the states so far off the gulf elsewhere repudiating. you know, not, i mean, not formally yet, the i the codes and the whole thing work a piece. and i think the off to this contract and i hope it will come as soon as possible. the whole chessboard has to use vision screws to has been up to and, and we really have to go back to basics us. but when the close, every power has j has filed and we now need both the pen continent and in what we now called southwest asia. how you thinking of security and holding your framework within the framework of the united nations to might be charged a system as i argue in the, in the book. yeah, they work the way should during this the same work we have to achieve some sort of sam good for pace and development. yeah, i mean, obviously there's a lot of doubts about that given how violent a year it's beam. but then how do you actually for see the nature of the collapse

of your european power? i suppose one could say that's already going to an extent, but as the economies collapse and you expect them to become states of the united states or the public. so west and your going to rebel, are we gonna witness some kind of rebellion by the masses in west and your against valley is you know, i think that's exaggerated. clearly western europe has been marginalized here politically. it has been suffering economically and it's also a crisis of political representation as in terms of effective in terms of the guys of various so called populace movements. we're really seeing the election results and stuff back here not long ago. and of course, i'm very stands phone in his view of that as well. are you kidding me or is it was quite clearly avoidable and she does. we must go to some sort of piece framework as soon as possible. but no yoga up is monitoring last the decision making is in

washington. and we have to wait for washington to resolve issues. nicole is, is going to election coming up. and so therefore, you know, there's a whole stack of, you know, to any lines meeting in 2024 a my view of 2024 is going to be a fundamentally decisive year in southwest southwest asia, in your opinion, politics and the whole time comes, you have to pay and, and atlanta says context. i mean, some people, uh, you're going to raised some eyebrows and badging with your mention of human rights in amongst the we goes, people can watch our interview with a week or activist. it's quite a quite eye opening. i'd say, do you think we're going to see the end of a bridge issue or being union nation united states, webinar, ization of human rights to attack these rising powers? but you're describing your book as well. i mean, human rights isn't, i mean it's a, it's a fundamental issue if it's fair and in terms of human dignity and development. and

of course, it has been recognized and i think i'm pulling this doesn't mean to say that the issue, the substantive issue does it parents? and of course, i think everyone at this stage has to start thinking on how to move away from this endless cold war style, militarism which i condemn in the book and suggests that you know that there is a feeling well, it's extraordinary given the enormous technological, another achievements of our time and of course, well faced with uh, you know, the major issue of artificial intelligence coming up on the hood, guys and get a big time which could change social organizations and not for your fundamental kind of to. and yet wisdom, my, i didn't these endless me guess it was tragic. so they are. but we need to list our eyes to launch in wider how guys and in which china isn't poetry. i doesn't. and then a, i mean who, who got little i started is or a, but we can now excel that, given the visits of the british prime minister in the u. s. president to the me

leave. it is okay to slaughter children based on their ethnicity as a means of self defense that is within the ambridge of human rights, as described by london, washington and brussels football. and i mean, my view very action is be totally, not a good yes style appeal inside has to be within international norms, yet to put absolutely no effect to pressure on this, you have to stop this loss and, you know, i personally think it's a, you know, absolutely disgraceful. we can condemn and i do in the strongest possible terms, the evidence. so certainly i must attack on the 7th of october, yet the responses disproportionate. and of course, it's certainly the killing when a one person does to justify the killing of 10 in the response is absolutely unacceptable in my view, within the charts international system,

as indeed the general secretary of the united nations. antonio gutierrez, i gone on a professor and you said, well, i'll stop you. the more from the author of the new book, the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd. gold will after this, right? the the

the welcome back to going underground. i'm still here with the old, there's a new book, the last piece, how the west failed to prevent a 2nd cold war professor richard software. richard, sorry to have cut you off there in the and about one, but uh you were talking of course about gaza. so what would you say then, given what you were saying, but obviously engineer gutierrez, agreed general, going into the middle east events surrounding what happened this year. is that more

so than iraq? afghanistan, libya, syria, ukraine. you guys, uh uh, put the name in the coffin, the video in charge as regards the human rights given as i was saying that it seemed that the major powers were okay with slaughter of children based on if history. you know, i can say why you say that, but i think the opposite. it just shows just how important the united nations is. and even it's really for cause cost is fundamentally too critical to, to sustaining whatever sort of normal life or food distribution is available. and of course, the united nations has been paralyzed. it hasn't been a security council resolution, but uh, the 5 years or the base of human rights. and then data international law doesn't mean to say that international law or united nations should be abandoned. there's nothing, there's no alternative. if we don't to support the international system established

in 1945, however poorly it has worked. we have nothing else in its place. and then because we really hit an international and a key of it, even worse than what we have at the moment. okay. well, if we see in the global, disgusted to have the weaponized ation of human rights, what about the weaponized ation of money transfer? you're talking the bulk of the end of the swift money transfer system. of course we saw the ukraine conflict lead to a attempt by nature bowers to cut rusher off from international finance. what's your understanding of what we're going to see quite shortly about that subject. so it's quite clear that the i'm the big summit in johannesburg and that's a bit ago. gotcha. and did china, south africa alignment was talking quite clearly about the emerging sofa tentative payment systems. and of course, the coupling away from the western financial institutions is accelerating. be,

we've seen the new development bank based in shanghai or the bricks new development bank is becoming an alternative to the breast and would system i m f, world bank. so we wouldn't be seeing a mess if the coupling and emergence of to roughly uh, you know, a quote, powerful alignment. i'm an old coast to be excused and had 6 new members who are formerly joining in january. so we're witnessing tectonic changes and international politics. this is so many years you're paying said when he visited moscow earlier this year, and it's certainly the case and they're both repeated it on several occasions since then. so we're left away with witnessing and living to a time a change of paradigms and change of system that we have not seen before. with windows i system, that's a mistake. when witnessing change balance and international politics, we've, in the international system established in 1945 and that kind of escaped the attention of us. corporate lead is,

is we talked about european decline. what do you think of the idea of it's some european while european businesses decline and some of them obviously do, do embrace. so what you were talking about the united states businesses and we saw the boss of apple in badging. them install. thoughts of rhetoric coming from washington about china, the us corporate power, which is known all around the world for its power over us politicians. they've learned anything else, actually embracing the new order that you speak of. whilst uh, western europe declines in the united states has bought into this new world order. a new, in a more peaceful world will be with this order for your request in europe, in the, in ruins, a guy. yep. so the guy to point out this pyre, docks is a united states should never be underestimated and its ability to reinvent itself and because of a normally dynamic economy and society, which obviously puts even more in the shade. the fact that you're paying leaders in

fuel to an external power to themselves. and of course, a willing to sacrifice the economic interest for what my view was missed and save vision, an attempt to consolidate the atlantic power system against russia and it's alignment . and the front line obviously has been for many years that you can so it's, you know, you have, so the guy that i think that the, the economics i'm moving on international to economies moving on and leaving western europe marginalized. or is it a reinvention too far? and we can expect that the united states really does engage in a whole well with, with china as they have, according to roger with roger over ukraine and the are, will the ballast and well, we saw that the jump in trade well within continued an intensified by bite and of course we were actually in united states next year. so everything could well the

whole pack of cards could be filled up in the year. and it could full an unexpected impressions. i think, as i said, 2024 as of the elections and european parliament, it's got to elections in india and other places. so it's a year in which a lot of the patents of the future will finally begin to take shape. i mean, i know that south africa is the same breaks, but do you think latin america or in africa to expand a lot, large parts of it have to wait for the death of the dollar before they truly emerge out of this old order or the close of b is a bit available as well said that i know they know needs to wait. it's the main important and of course and all of this. i just hope that some way can be found to avoid this, you know, finding the apple collected conflict, which of course, a lot of people are talking about. and that in some ways they're all wise or heads

. and so it's hard to find where in the list and did i did, i say this, but i would have to even can you guys say so you knowing yeah, i know it's very hard to well, i don't know. trump is the favorite to win in 2024 and his views on trying to make their yes. yeah. you know, it's, uh, yeah, i mean, it seems to now, but because one of those worked to him to would be compared to his 1st leadership because clearly he was working on the endless pressure of investigate with all sorts of other concerns. well, i wonder because, you know, trump is clearly a maverick leader, but some of his ideas, for example, it makes sense to get on with russia. was a sensible idea and you know, he's probably got if he'd be leader, we wouldn't be having as well. and i wonder to the degree to which ultimately he may come to terms with charlie because he was thinking computer in economic terms,

my counselor mackenzie list terms. but you know, by doing has made it ideology, cool. was to him present transactional leader who knows what, what he may come up with. i mean, clearly as a power of propaganda are in all these issues. if they don't read your book, just briefly, what do you think of the security of the united states as other defacto calling the south korea, japan, the philippines. what happens to these countries as these, this world changes? or yes, you were saying an intensification and allstate, us alarm system, certainly waste your time for the guys of china. we're seeing those are soft, clear, which is touring to maintain a certain distance here. if it was willing to supply shelves to, to, to you can, of course they also have elections in the, at the moment that in a particularly a phase which is pro uh, washington very strongly so. but uh, there is a strong movements within soft, clear. but you know, losing alca space uh,

aligns with a steering. yeah. i know close on the other side and talk to me on the line sound good idea. uh, another company on both joining the bricks or shanghai corporation organization may spend. india, of course, plays a very important part in all of this. so we seeing now globally alignment on the scale, we're having to say we haven't seen the realignment heavily in those countries. i've created japan in the philippines and they're pretty important to have intensified guidelines for the united states. so they're going to lose in the they can always uh, well, who knows, who knows who, who's gonna waiting at the context, waiting for a, an ethical context. a 2nd the cold war which is far worse file more intense and will be fine or harder to overcome than the 1st coldwell, i'm afraid was. we looked into that for the next generation also. and how successful do you think? washington control tends to champagne countries align with washington will continue to be, i mean, presumably using not just print media and television,

but obviously the internet as well. we've seen the method being used in that way. and now the big tech companies, will they successfully stop populations across you as well? so those dates are understanding the world if you write about in this book. so yeah, yeah, that's another important point is that to a cold was accompanied by massive communicative welfare and cooper band. and they, especially given the fact social media now is being, you know, policed and i'm, i'm good cost as, as you well know, i'd taken off of the a, in certain countries. indeed. and of course, this is an intensification of a group of camden, informational bullfighter on the other side as well. so this is when they get tragedies of hard time, when really we need political dialogue, we need informed debate on all sides is being flows down. well, i think breaks congress is saying they're freeing up their media and not the end doing, doing the opposite. i mean,

what happens then as to how say the european union in britain will qual, internal descent as economically these countries. obviously perform was in the budgeting, new global economy, of alliances and geo political, uh, entrepreneurial money exchange, or this cold tool. the society depression is, is, is quite tough from the closing offer of attentive media channels. and because as you sat in the global level, russian r t because plays an important button, chinese media and indian media to provide that diversity of use which is being limited in some of the hotlines of, of the political west. uh, but uh, yep. i mean it's, it's, i, i see is that especially if things go even worse in southwest asia and garza doing

your thing, then we, we could see some very nasty, unpleasant depression in a, in western europe and united states. i mean, i'm just thinking about poverty in britain. we know the increasing poverty specifics in the country are speaking to me from, i mean will they just have to be grades or budgets on policing as the economy is a decline as well at the moment, all as i say is uh on hold because we've got an election coming up within the next year. and it looks as if uh, you know, the alternative labor policy is in po, position c and isn't local by elections. but of course i'm no i, i think that the united kingdom is suffered from the crisis of bad governance for generations, labor and conservative. and there's a, you know, the, the, the sources of renew is nothing time to clear your how used to be to a union stretch movement space movements as a political movements. and at the moment, there seems to be a total stagnation in ideas of how to make this in

a better society. these are more just society and indeed have better govern society, and that's desperately something that we need. resurrection sacrifice. thank you. and that the new book, the last piece, how the west failed to revenge a 2nd goal drawers that now that's it for the show. remember, we're bringing you brand new episodes every sunday and monday until then. you can keep in touch by the social media or if it's not sense of deal country and had to a channel going on the run tv on normal, don't come to watch new and old episodes of going underground season. the it's amazing what can happen over the course of a few months, not long ago buying was in static, the us with back to craig as long as it takes. no,

it is as long as we can. what happened? no doubt to reach even to this taken down the not least 70 people all killed in a single is right. yeah. try calling me because the refugee camp instead took all the pucks according to local socrates. we have promised to buy bump to try that. my daughter, her husband and his sons were all killed. it is old targeting civilians where old song gets the disturbing images from the southern paul to young tave. what an idea to todd claims at least 20 kind of spinning and nice poolside plays from the people here project in northern garza. we managed to reach.